Podcast Summary

Piers Morgan Uncensored

Episode: "He Did Everything To SMEAR" – Epstein's Mearsheimer Plot Revealed in Leaks
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Piers Morgan
Guests: Professor John Mearsheimer (University of Chicago), Alan Dershowitz (Attorney, Author)

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode centers on recent revelations from leaked emails showing Jeffrey Epstein collaborating with Alan Dershowitz to discredit scholars John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt after their influential work, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy." The conversation explores the power of the Israel lobby, the smear campaign against academics, allegations about Epstein’s connections to Israel, and the continuing debate between Mearsheimer and Dershowitz over U.S.-Israel relations and academic freedom.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background: The Israel Lobby Controversy (00:52 - 02:18)

• Mearsheimer and Walt's 2006 Paper on the Israel lobby sparked a backlash and accusations of antisemitism.
• The Harvard Kennedy School distanced itself from the work after public pressure.

2. Netanyahu’s Pardon Request and Israeli Politics (01:42 - 03:40)

• Piers Morgan: Brings up Netanyahu's unprecedented request for a pardon from President Herzog, even before his trial on corruption charges concluded.
• Mearsheimer:

  "If you purport to be a democracy like Israel does, you have a deep seated interest in making sure that people pay attention to the rule of law." (03:22)

• Discussion on the implications for Israeli democracy and parallels with U.S. political posturing.

3. Alleged Israeli War Crimes in the West Bank (03:40 - 05:18)

• Piers references recent footage of Israeli soldiers executing Palestinian detainees.
• Mearsheimer:

  "For a country that's committing genocide in Gaza, it's hardly surprising that they're shooting innocent civilians in the West Bank." (04:56)

4. Ukraine War and Prospects for Peace (05:18 - 08:12)

• Mearsheimer sees no realistic chance for a negotiated peace, citing unbridgeable demands from Russia versus the West.
• Leadership change in Ukraine (e.g., Zelensky's possible ouster) is unlikely to meaningfully alter the conflict's trajectory.

  "This war is ultimately going to be settled on the battlefield" (06:59)

5. Smear Campaign: Epstein, Dershowitz and The Israel Lobby (10:07 - 12:24)

• Piers: Outlines the newly leaked emails showing Epstein helping circulate talking points to discredit Mearsheimer and Walt.
• Mearsheimer:

  "I had no idea that he was cooperating with Jeffrey Epstein in that endeavor... But I'm not surprised at all now that I've seen a few of the emails that Dershowitz and Epstein were cooperating." (10:11)
  "Both of them are individuals who have a passionate attachment to Israel and will go to enormous lengths to defend Israel no matter what." (10:58)

6. Allegations of Epstein’s Mossad/Israel Connections (11:12 - 12:07)

• Mearsheimer expresses cautious openness but says current evidence is inconclusive.

  "There's just no question that there is a deep interest in helping Israel in all sorts of ways on Epstein's part. But exactly what that means... is impossible to say given the evidence..." (11:57)

7. The Enduring Power of the Israel Lobby (12:07 - 16:21)

• Mearsheimer stands by the core arguments from the original book, noting that the lobby’s influence is even more obvious in light of recent events.
• Changes in American public opinion: criticism of Israel now comes from both the left and increasingly the MAGA-right.

  "Now, given what's happened, especially since October 7th, it's hard to deny that the lobby has awesome power." (12:48)
  "You have this problem that inside the MAGA base of the Republican party there are a substantial number of people who have become profoundly critical of Israel." (15:38)

8. Antisemitism and Criticisms of Israel (18:47 - 20:16)

• Mearsheimer draws a distinction between legitimate criticism of Israel and actual antisemitism.

  "The charge of antisemitism is oftentimes used so loosely as to make the term almost meaningless." (18:47)
  "There is no question that there is evidence... of real antisemitism… And I do believe the great danger is if events in Gaza continue, ...we could have a major crisis in terms of rising antisemitism..." (19:35)

9. Professional and Personal Consequences of the Smear Campaign (20:43 - 22:52)

• Mearsheimer details career repercussions for Walt, including loss of high-profile academic opportunities.

  "Anybody who knew Steve… thought that Steve was a first order administrator… But that never happened. …he should have been dean… But that was ruled out of bounds once he wrote the lobby article." (21:14)

• Mearsheimer himself was less affected, focusing on scholarship rather than administration.

Alan Dershowitz’s Response (23:00 - 34:27)

1. On the 'Smear' Accusation and Academic Debate (23:14 - 25:11)

• Dershowitz:

  "I wrote a 200-page analysis of their book, an academic analysis. It wasn't a smear. It was a very cogent line by line dissection of their arguments and disproof." (23:27)

  • Claims Mearsheimer and Walt declined multiple debate invitations.
• Framing his actions as legitimate academic engagement, not a silencing campaign.

2. On Circulating Material to Epstein (25:11 - 27:31)

• Dershowitz:

  "I sent it to every member of the Harvard Law School faculty. I sent it to all my friends in the media and Epstein was one of the people I sent it to. I was his lawyer at the time, and he responded, as many others did, by saying, I'll circulate it." (25:37)

• Maintains pride in seeking wide dissemination and transparency.

3. Addressing Epstein-Israel/Mossad Rumors (27:31 - 30:18)

• Dershowitz:

  "This was done at a time when nobody was making that allegation... Having an exchange with somebody who I knew and somebody who was pro Israel doesn't prove... that he had a connection with the Mossad." (28:41)

• Shares anecdote about Epstein's interest in Israel, existing relationships, and prior legal work for Mossad (Cyprus case).

4. Potential Email Leaks and Personal Culpability (30:18 - 31:33)

• Dershowitz:

  "I did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong ever in my life sexually... I want all emails out. I've never tried to suppress a single email. I'm proud of all my emails." (30:35)

• Open to further scrutiny, invites full transparency.

5. More on Epstein’s Israel Connections and Academic Networking (31:33 - 33:46)

• More emails relating to Epstein's Israel ties are likely.
• Dershowitz:

  "The most natural thing in the world would be... for me to send him my article... and ask him for not only his feedback, but ask him to circulate it as widely as possible. Proud that I did it, happy that I did it, I would do it again." (33:13)

• Describes Epstein’s seminars as genuine intellectual forums involving prominent scholars.

6. Plea for a Direct Debate (34:07 - 34:27)

• Dershowitz:

  "Let's have a debate." (34:27)

• Expresses repeated willingness to debate Mearsheimer in public.

Memorable Quotes and Timestamps

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |-----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | John Mearsheimer| "If you purport to be a democracy like Israel does, you have a deep seated interest in making sure that people pay attention to the rule of law." | 03:22 | | John Mearsheimer| "For a country that's committing genocide in Gaza, it's hardly surprising that they're shooting innocent civilians in the West Bank." | 04:56 | | John Mearsheimer| "This war is ultimately going to be settled on the battlefield." | 06:59 | | John Mearsheimer| "I had no idea that [Dershowitz] was cooperating with Jeffrey Epstein in that endeavor... But I'm not surprised at all..." | 10:11 | | John Mearsheimer| "Now, given what's happened...it's hard to deny that the lobby has awesome power." | 12:48 | | John Mearsheimer| "We're both philo Semites of the first order. We're critical of Israel, critical of the lobby and critical of the U.S.-Israeli relationship." | 18:52 | | Alan Dershowitz | "I wrote a 200-page analysis of their book, an academic analysis. It wasn't a smear. It was a very cogent line by line dissection..." | 23:27 | | Alan Dershowitz | "I sent it to every member of the Harvard Law School faculty...Epstein was one of the people I sent it to. I was his lawyer at the time..." | 25:37| | Alan Dershowitz | "Proud that I did it, happy that I did it, I would do it again." | 33:13 |

Important Timestamps and Segments

• 00:52 – Setting the stage: Israel Lobby paper, backlash, and Epstein/Dershowitz collaboration
• 03:40 – Mearsheimer on Israeli impunity regarding war crimes in the West Bank
• 10:07 – Mearsheimer reacts to Epstein-Dershowitz email revelations
• 12:07 – Mearsheimer: Israel lobby’s influence then and now
• 18:47 – Mearsheimer on the misuse of antisemitism accusations
• 20:43 – Impact of smear campaign on Walt and Mearsheimer
• 23:14 – Dershowitz: Defense of his academic critique and outreach tactics
• 25:37 – Dershowitz: Communication with Epstein; academic vs. lobbying intent
• 33:13 – Dershowitz: Would do it all again; transparency and the marketplace of ideas
• 34:07 – Call for direct academic debate

Tone & Style

• Mearsheimer: Direct, scholarly, and at times indicting of Israeli policy and its American enablers; unapologetic in defending academic freedom.
• Dershowitz: Defensive but professorial, framing his actions as academic debate, and vocally open to further public discussion and scrutiny.

Summary Value

This episode offers a deep dive into the continuing fallout from Mearsheimer and Walt's critique of the Israel lobby, new intrigue around Epstein’s behind-the-scenes involvement, and personal insight into the career consequences for academic dissidents. The ensuing exchange between Mearsheimer and Dershowitz frames a broader discussion about free inquiry, the line between criticism and antisemitism, and the mechanisms that enforce or resist orthodoxy in U.S. foreign policy.