'He Was EXONERATED!' Michael Jackson Documentary Questioned By His Defense Attorney

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Piers Morgan Uncensored

Episode: "He Was EXONERATED!" Michael Jackson Documentary Questioned By His Defense Attorney

Date: June 4, 2026
Host: Piers Morgan
Featured Guests:

• Thomas Mesereau (Michael Jackson’s 2005 defense attorney)
• Mark Geragos (Criminal defense attorney, former Jackson lawyer, current victim representative)
• Vincent F. Amen (Former Jackson publicist, now alleges abuse)
• Geraldo Rivera (Journalist, covered the trial/interviewed Jackson)

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Overview

This episode centers on the renewed controversy surrounding Michael Jackson’s legacy in the wake of a new Netflix documentary examining his 2005 child molestation trial. Piers Morgan brings together key figures from Jackson’s legal and personal orbit—his star defense attorney, former legal allies now representing accusers, a publicist-turned-accuser, and a long-time journalist observer—for a frank, heated debate on the question: Was Michael Jackson unjustly persecuted or was he a serial abuser shielded by fame?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thomas Mesereau: The Case Was Closed

• [01:56–04:22] Mesereau criticizes the new documentary’s timing and necessity, emphasizing Jackson’s complete acquittal (“not guilty on every felony count and every misdemeanor count. 14 times they said not guilty. He was totally exonerated.”).
• Details the jury’s diversity to refute claims of bias (majority women, professionals, molestation survivors, no African Americans).
• Argues that a documentary cannot encapsulate the exhaustive evidence presented during the trial, and that media focuses on “salacious allegations” without context or counterargument.
• Notable Quote:

  “Why are we going through a documentary on this? … He was exonerated. The jury couldn’t have sent a stronger message.” —Thomas Mesereau [03:30]

2. Personal Perspectives: Piers Morgan’s Interviews with Michael & Joe Jackson

• [04:22–05:56] Piers recalls his own interviews—Michael’s emotional denial of harming children (1999) and Joe Jackson’s assertion of his son’s innocence (2013).

3. Mesereau on Claims of Commercial Exploitation

• [06:33–08:59]

• Asserts that the media feeds off sensationalism for profit, often ignoring counter-evidence.

• Raises specific overlooked trial defenses:

  • Chris Tucker’s warning to Jackson about the accuser’s family.
  • Jay Leno’s testimony about scripted, suspicious calls from the accuser.
  • George Lopez and other local witnesses pointing to the family’s dubious history.

• Notable Quote:

  "No documentary, given the time limits, can do justice to the case we put on. ...Total exoneration of Michael Jackson." —Thomas Mesereau [08:44]

4. Unresolved Allegations: The Chandler Case

• [08:59–09:56]
  Piers raises the 1990s’ Jordan Chandler civil suit and the genitalia identification claim. Mesereau declines to comment but reiterates Jackson was never criminally convicted anywhere.

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Panel Discussion: Conflict & Contradiction

5. Mark Geragos: From Defender to Victim Advocate

• [11:02–16:21]
• Describes why he stepped back from Jackson's defense at the time (potential conflict as witness).
• Cites deep misgivings about the Arvizo accusers’ credibility; testified on Jackson’s behalf.
• Now (in 2026) represents other alleged victims (the Cascio family). Explains their credibility based on firsthand knowledge and detailed accounts, despite once defending Jackson publicly.
• Admits these are notoriously difficult cases to prove and that fame, money, and time cloud perceptions.
• Notable Quotes:

  "I did not see anything in that case…these accusers ... gave me the willie." —Mark Geragos [11:16]
  "The wounds were extremely deep... I wasn't present. All I know is that I was in the weeds on the Arvizos at the time." [32:15]

6. Vincent Amen: Former Insider Turned Accuser

• [17:12–18:49]

• Claims to have found explicit material suggesting child abuse at Neverland in 2004, confronted colleague Frank, who allegedly confirmed Michael's involvement in procuring the material.

• Later provided information to authorities but was not called as a witness; speculates this was because his account didn’t fit the prosecution’s narrative.

• Denies being directly paid by Netflix for documentary participation, only for information provided.

• Notable Quote:

  "It wasn't until 2004 where I found something very concerning indicating child abuse...Michael was the one that circled the videos to be ordered." —Vincent Amen [17:51]

7. Geraldo Rivera: No Evidence of Guilt, Fame as a Target

• [20:40–24:12]
• Based on extensive interaction and observation, maintains that Jackson was innocent and was targeted due to his fame and wealth.
• Recalls the accuser’s mother’s conviction for welfare fraud, painting primary accusers as “grifters.”
• Suggests the relentless allegations and pressure hastened Jackson’s death from drug use and psychological distress.
• Notable Quotes:

  "I spent hours with Michael ... alone with my wife at times... I never saw anything." —Geraldo Rivera [20:44]
  "I absolutely believe those people, in their greed, killed Michael Jackson. They went after him, they ate pieces of him, they destroyed him and spit out the pieces." [24:57]

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Heated Exchanges: Testimony & Motivation

8. Confrontation Over Credibility

• [27:49–29:41]
• Geraldo questions why Amen's testimony wasn’t used if it was credible. Amen insists he was excluded for not fitting the case, not for lack of credibility.
• Amen repeatedly raises being "silenced" and marginalized; Geraldo calls the main accuser’s mother a “hustler.”

9. Geragos: The Decline of Michael Jackson

• [29:54–33:37]
• Describes Jackson as “a shell of his former self” by the 2000s due to ongoing scandals.
• Shares personal anecdote about finding Jackson overdosed—illustrating how battered Jackson became by legal, public pressures.
• On the Arvizo case specifically: "I saw nothing that led me to believe he was guilty in that case." [33:45]

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Key Quotes by Timestamp

• Thomas Mesereau:

  • "He was totally exonerated. So why are we going through a documentary on this? The case is closed." [02:37]
  • "You can’t do a short documentary that does justice to all the evidence and witnesses...so I don’t think we need another documentary on this case." [04:06]

• Michael Jackson (archive):

  • "I would slit my wrist before I would. I could never, ever...I try to do good...and they made fun of me." [04:40]

• Geraldo Rivera:

  • "I do. I do. I spent hours with Michael ... I never saw anything." [20:41]
  • "One thing no one has mentioned is...the mother of the accuser...was convicted or pled guilty to welfare fraud. These were grifters, and Michael was an amazing, lucrative target." [21:46]
  • "I absolutely believe those people, in their greed, killed Michael Jackson. They went after him, they ate pieces of him." [24:57]

• Mark Geragos:

  • "I did not see anything in that case...these accusers ... gave me the willie." [11:16]
  • "I saw nothing that led me to believe he was guilty in that case." [33:45]

• Vincent Amen:

  • "It wasn't until 2004 where I found something very concerning indicating child abuse...Michael was the one that circled the videos to be ordered." [17:51]
  • "In 2004 is when my position changed." [18:49]

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Notable & Memorable Moments

• [02:37] Mesereau’s catalog of the jury’s breadth and his insistence on Jackson’s total exoneration.
• [04:40] Archive audio of Michael Jackson’s emotional, defiant response to Piers’s question about hurting children.
• [24:57] Geraldo’s accusation that Jackson’s death was hastened by the “greed” of his accusers, making for a somber, resonant moment.
• [17:51–18:49] Vincent Amen’s allegations about finding explicit child content—prompting heated skepticism from panelists.
• [33:31–33:45] Piers’s direct push for a conclusion from Mark Geragos, drawing a rare, clear statement.

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Important Segments with Timestamps

| MM:SS | Segment Description | |-------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:56 | Mesereau explains refusal to participate in the Netflix documentary | | 04:40 | Archive: Michael Jackson’s emotional denial of all allegations | | 06:33 | Mesereau details media bias, overlooked defense evidence | | 09:32 | Piers presses Mesereau on the Jordan Chandler case | | 11:02 | Geragos explains initial belief in Michael’s innocence, later shift to representing accusers| | 13:13 | Discussion of the Cascio family allegations/2026 lawsuit | | 17:12 | Vincent Amen alleges discovering child abuse evidence at Neverland | | 20:40 | Geraldo Rivera's belief in Michael's innocence | | 24:57 | Geraldo blames Jackson's death on the greed of accusers | | 29:54 | Geragos recalls Jackson’s rapid decline and personal struggle | | 33:31 | Piers asks Geragos for his final verdict on the Arvizo case | | 33:45 | Geragos: "I saw nothing that led me to believe he was guilty in that case" |

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Tone and Language

• Candid, combative, emotionally charged.
• Panelists speak openly, with little hedging; personal recollections abound.
• Host (Piers Morgan) challenges guests directly and encourages clarifying, sometimes heated, exchanges.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a revealing, no-holds-barred crossfire between those who still defend Jackson’s innocence and those who believe credible abuse claims have been ignored for too long. The legal complexity of the 2005 trial, Jackson’s profound cultural impact, the motivations of accusers and defenders, and the media’s role are all dissected. Despite the passage of decades and repeated legal exoneration, Michael Jackson’s legacy remains as polarizing and fiercely debated as ever.

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Transcript

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[Piers Morgan]

On this episode of Uncensored as a new bombshell documentary re examines Michael Jackson's 2005 child molestation trial. Are there any secret rooms? We gather those who knew him best to ask a simple question. Was the king of pop a sex abuser? Well, the lawyer seen there in that clip was Michael Jackson's defense attorney during his infamous trial, Thomas Mesura, who convinced the jury to find Jackson not guilty on all 14 counts. He didn't take part in the documentary, but he's agreed to join us for the first interview since its release. Thomas, a long time since I've interviewed you. Great to see you again.

[Thomas Mesereau]

Great to see you and it's nice to be back. And thank you for the invitation.

[Piers Morgan]

It's a kind of fascinating moment of many fascinating moments in the world of Michael Jackson before, during, and after his death. Because on the one hand, you have this blockbuster smash hit movie glorifying the wondrous performer, the singer, the dancer, the superstar, and then it stops before any of the other stuff gets involved, the child molestation trial and so on. And now with Netflix coming out with this documentary that shows that side of it. So you have the two parts, really, of the Michael Jackson story. You didn't take part in the Netflix documentary. Why did you decide not to?

[Thomas Mesereau]

Well, first of all, this is a very joyous time for supporters and lovers of Michael Jackson. The biopic is setting all kinds of records. His memorabilia is selling all over the world. His music is streaming all over the world. Even his book Moonwalk is flying off the shelves. I mean, this is a great time to be a supporter and lover of Michael Jackson. So why do we need a biopic in the. Excuse me, not a biopic. Why do we need a documentary in the middle of this that goes back 21 years? In a case where he was completely exonerated, the jury deliberated for eight days. They had seen almost five months of testimony. They had been in trial five days a week. During those five months, they deliberated eight Days. And they came back with not guilty on every felony count and every misdemeanor count. 14 times they said not guilty. He was totally exonerated. So why are we going through a documentary on this? What's the point? I don't think we need a documentary on this. I think they've been enough. And I didn't want to participate in it because we don't need it. He was exonerated. The jury couldn't have sent a stronger message. And let me say this, who was on this jury? Pierce. We had a white civil engineer who described himself as conservative. We had a retired school principal with a master's degree in counseling. We had a mathematics teacher with a master's degree in mathematics. We had a head of a local social services agency who had been married to a police officer. We had a journalist. We had people in the military nearby at a base very well prominent in that location. We had two women who had experienced molestation in their own family. We had a majority women. We had no African American. Nobody could say this was a racially biased jury or a racial verdict. They deliberated. They heard all the evidence. The case is closed. We don't need to revisit this again. And unfortunately, you can't do a short documentary that does justice to all the evidence and witnesses the jurors heard, saw and thought about. You can't do it. So I don't think the timing is suspicious and I don't think we need another documentary on this case.

[Piers Morgan]

You know, I had two sort of direct involvements with Michael Jackson, both with him and then with his father. In 1999, I interviewed Michael for the Daily Mirror newspaper when I was the editor over there. And he said this to me.

[Michael Jackson]

I would slit my wrist before I would. I could never, ever. I would love to live in London because I love it so much. It's just the press is so hard on me here and I try to do so good. I go to their hospital. I give presents to the children. As soon as. As I leave, the next day they go wacko. Jacko left the hospital and he ignored all the children. And it hurt my heart because I purposely. I flew Minnie Mouse and Mickey Mouse all the way from Euro Disney. I brought them with me to surprise the children. I brought them right on. Yeah, I brought bags of presents and everything. And I spent time with the kid and they made fun of me.

[Piers Morgan]

You know, it was quite a wide ranging interview. But he got quite emotional and tearful when he was talking about the allegations against him and was utterly Emphatic. He'd never do anything to hurt a child. And in 2013, when I was at CNN, I interviewed his father, Joe, and asked him outright if he ever had cause for thinking that Michael might be a danger to children. Let's take a look. You never saw anything that you. That concerns you?

[Mark Geragos]

There's nothing that concerned me.

[Piers Morgan]

You never felt.

[Mark Geragos]

We knew Michael?

[Piers Morgan]

Right.

[Mark Geragos]

We knew our son.

[Piers Morgan]

Interesting to hear those again after all these years. But did you just finally, before I bring the other panel members in, Thomas, did you ever have any cause for concern about Michael Jackson and children?

[Thomas Mesereau]

Well, when I got into the case, I didn't know who to believe or what to take into account. My mind was clear. I didn't form conclusions. I dug into the evidence. I spent a lot of time with him, and I concluded there is no way this man ever molested a child, abused a child, hurt a child, no way possible. And I still feel that way today.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you feel there's been a kind of commercial whirlwind around this issue? That people have raced to make money out of it, to be blunt?

[Thomas Mesereau]

Well, that's what it is. The media, I'm not including everybody. The media tends to want to glorify salacious allegations. They don't like to spend time on the counter argument. So the media and this documentary spends time on very dramatic, disturbing, salacious allegations and doesn't do justice to the problems with the prosecution's witnesses and the prosecution's case. For example, there's no mention of Chris Tucker, who was our last witness, the famous comedian and actor. He testified as our last witness. He said that he knew this family, he had experience with them, he had concerns about them, and he told Michael to be careful. And he described the accuser as cunning. I called Jay Leno as a witness. Jay Leno testified that the accuser and someone in the background, he thought it was his mother, called him. He got on the phone, the accuser sounded scripted. Something seemed off. He thought they were after money, but they didn't ask for it. And after that phone call, he told his staff to never put them through again. Comedian George Lopez testified that people in the accuser's family accused him of stealing from the accuser's wallet a couple of hundred bucks. We had a witness who ran a local newspaper nearby the location where this family was operating, and she said that she was approached by the mother. The mother said they were out of funds, they needed money for their child's health care, and she tried to raise money through the newspaper, only to find out that they were using insurance through the Teamsters union. And she said, I was duped. We had other witnesses like this. They don't appear in the documentary. No documentary, given the time limits, can do justice to the case we put on. And again, I want to repeat, 10 felonies, four misdemeanors, not guilty every time, a clean sweep against the prosecution. Total exoneration of Michael Jackson.

[Piers Morgan]

And just finally, Thomas, obviously, probably the most infamous case was brought against Michael was from Jordan Chandler, who settled out of court for an estimated $23 million. It was a civil case, a civil settlement. It didn't include any admission of guilt. But Chandler was famously able to identify markings on Michael Jackson's genitals. To those who say that's evidence of there's no smoke without fire and so on, what do you say?

[Thomas Mesereau]

I'm not going to comment on that case as I sit here today. Michael Jackson was never convicted of a crime of any kind in any criminal courtroom anywhere in the world. He was a wonderful person. He was innocent. He didn't deserve to be put through this. It was an honor and a privilege to be his lead trial lawyer. I'm glad we won and I wish he were still around.

[Piers Morgan]

Thomas Mesra, great to talk to you again. Thank you very much indeed for being on Uncensored.

[Thomas Mesereau]

Thank you, Piers. I appreciate it.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, joining me now, a panel made up of people who all had a professional and personal relationship with Michael Jackson. Vincent F. Amen was Michael Jackson's crisis publicist, but now says the superstar was an abuser. Geraldo Rivera is correspondent at Large News Nation. He's covered the trial and conducted an interview with Jackson before the verdict. And Mark Garrigos is a criminal defense attorney and former lawyer for Jackson. Today he represents some of those who say they were victims of the superstar. So a lot of mixed views here. Let me start with you, Mark Garrigos, because Thomas Mesereau was a superb lawyer, did many great trials, and is utterly emphatic to this day that his defense of Michael Jackson at the time, he never saw any evidence that he molested any children and believes him to be completely innocent. You were of that view initially. Now you represent some of the alleged victims. Why the change?

[Mark Geragos]

Well, look, I don't disagree with Tom in many different ways. The reason I did not try that case was because when the DA Tom Sneddon, indicted Michael, he had on count one, kind of an obstruction count that clearly was directed at me doing the investigation of the accusers. And at that point, I knew I would become a witness. And I ended up testifying not once but twice in support of the fact that these accusers in that particular case gave me the. For lack of. I don't know that this is a legal term, but they gave me the willie. And we had moved them out of Neverland. And we had asked that Michael have no further contact with him. So I did not see anything in that case. In fact, Tom is now dead. But I had lunch with Sneddon on at least two occasions. And I told him a year and a half before he did this, I was called in because people around Michael Jackson were worried about this family. And we had Child Protective Services investigating it. And we went through that. And all of the accusations as far as that point in time were unproven. And this family were not great historians, to say the least. So I don't disagree with Tom in the least. In fact, like I said, I testified not once but twice in support of the fact that Michael had nothing to do with. With the investigation of them and frankly, getting them out of Neverland.

[Piers Morgan]

You now represent, I believe, the Cascio family. And there was a 2026 lawsuit, so this year involving them, Dominic and Connie Cascio, along with their children, long known publicly as Jackson's second family, who originally defended him on the Oprah Winfrey show, but now alleged that Jackson heavily groomed and abused four of the children during the 90s. They were recently profiled on 60 Minutes Australia. Here's a little look at what they

[Mark Geragos]

said coming up on 60 Minutes. The movie might be a blockbuster. Ready whenever you are, Michael. But it doesn't tell the full story.

[Piers Morgan]

You were under his spell.

[Vincent Amen]

It's a monster.

[Thomas Mesereau]

He's evil.

[Mark Geragos]

Michael Jackson had a secret family.

[Thomas Mesereau]

I was groomed since I was born

[Mark Geragos]

who'll forever be traumatized. This was the worst.

[Piers Morgan]

What made you convinced of their credibility, given the fact they had appeared on Oprah and defended Jackson? And in the backdrop of what many people feel very sort of cynical about, which is that when he died, Michael Jackson's estate was worth $450 million today is believed to be worth between 2 and 5 billion dollars. And that there's now a whole kind of industry of people having revisionist claims about him and what he did, which they didn't have, you know, 20 years ago or so.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, to be clear, Howard King represents the Cassio family. Now, I did represent them for a period of time. One of the things that I thought was significant is they knew certain facts about during the time period when I represented Michael that only could have been somebody who, who had a front row seat, so to speak. And if you, you saw from this interview from 60 Minutes Australia, I sat with them for countless hours. They make extremely compelling witnesses. Extremely compelling. And ironically, when I was called as a witness during the trial itself, the judge who provide, who presided over that case forced. Michael, when I say forced, because I was called as a witness, said, you've got to waive attorney client in order to have Mr. Gergas testify here. And they did waive attorney client. Michael did waive attorney client during the trial. The fact remains that these kinds of cases are so difficult because absent some kind of video, absent some kind of contemporaneous corroboration, it always comes down to people kind of rooting on either side, depending on whose ox is being gored, to borrow the old expression. That's what makes them so difficult. Here you've got a situation where Michael was revered. I remember in the 80s when he was at the pinnacle of his fame, if you had neurons firing, you couldn't help but be impressed by just the sheer enormity of his talent. And I think that that tends to overshadow, given this documentary, which you were talking about today, comes on the heels of the movie itself. The movie itself has done blockbust kinds of commercial success to the point where they now want to do a sequel. And the numbers that they're talking about, to your point, I think the gross on the movie is more than his entire estate was at the time he died.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, it is, it is. It's been an absolute sensation.

[Mark Geragos]

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[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring in Vincent. Amen. You started working for Jackson in 2002. You were tasked with looking after the who returned to Neverland Ranch to ride out the media storm. You're of the belief that he was predatory to children. Why?

[Vincent Amen]

Well, initially, when I went out there, I knew Frank very well. Prior to going out there, I had a conversation with Frank and I said, frank, is there any instance of this occurring sleeping in bed with children or. Or any child abuse? Frank, I knew, was a world traveler with Michael, and he ultimately denied it. So I trusted Frank. I went out to work for Michael and his companies. I started off in damage control with Mark Schaffel, and we handled the post Bashir special damage control. Eventually, I was placed with the Arvizo family to assist them in getting readjusted to society from what was done to them and the damage that was done to them. It wasn't until 2004 where I found something very concerning indicating child abuse. I never seen a magazine like that or any person looking at naked children videos with circles to be ordered of the videos. I then went up to Frank and I confronted him. And basically I said, you know, why do you have this and possess this? He says, this was a phase that Michael and him went through watching these videos, and Michael was the one that circled the videos to be ordered, and Frank was the one that obtained the videos for Michael. Were you paid, say, 2004?

[Piers Morgan]

Sorry. Yeah. Finish your point.

[Geraldo Rivera]

Yeah.

[Vincent Amen]

So in 2004 is when my position changed.

[Piers Morgan]

Have you been paid to take part in the documentary? Netflix?

[Vincent Amen]

We were not allowed to get paid for our appearance and telling our story. I was paid for providing information.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, let me bring in Geraldo. Geraldo, I want to start. Welcome back to Uncensored. Always great to have you. I want to start with. This is a clip that you got Michael Jackson to make a statement. This was at the start of the trial. Let's take a look.

[Geraldo Rivera]

Finally, you know, we studiously avoided the case. We've not talked at all about the case that's pending. You're under this gag order. I know that you have received the permission from the judge to read a statement.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes.

[Geraldo Rivera]

You know, I hate to end an interview that way, but if you'd like to read that statement now, I think it's important.

[Michael Jackson]

Sure. In the last two weeks, a large amount of ugly, malicious information has been released into the media about me. Apparently, this information was leaked through transcripts in a grand jury proceeding where neither my lawyers nor I ever appeared. The information is disgusting and false. Years ago, I allowed a family to visit and spend time in Neverland. Neverland is my home. I allowed this family into my home because they told me their son was ill with cancer and needed my help. Through the years, I helped thousands of children who were ill or in distress. These events have caused a nightmare for my family, my children and me.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. Just a simple question, really. I mean, did you believe him at the time, in the moment that he was saying that in front of you? And do you believe to this day. Do you believe to this day that he is Innocent of those charges.

[Geraldo Rivera]

I do. I do. I spent hours with Michael on camera, off camera, alone with my wife at times when Michael was living in a motel in Santa Monica, running away from the press in Neverland Recording studios in the Valley. I never saw anything. And I note, just note, everyone acknowledge the presence of wonderful attorney Mike Garagos, a dear friend over many years, and Thomas Mestreau, another wonderful attorney who did a magnificent job in defending Michael in the Santa Barbara case. I never saw any evidence of that. I spent hours, as I said, speaking with him privately and publicly. I believe the film is an accurate depiction of the best of Michael Jackson, who was by every measure profoundly wounded by these accusations. I think that it was a cruelty and an avarice. And one thing that no one has mentioned so far is the fact that the mother of the accuser in the principal case in 2005 was convicted or pled guilty to welfare fraud. These were grifters, and Michael was an amazing, lucrative target. And what they did to his reputation. And this fellow sitting to my right, again, you had to pry from him the fact that he was on the tit, that he was, you know, working, getting paid for his efforts. What they did to him was a sin. It happened to Elvis also later. Different allegations, of course, but at least they had the decency to wait until he was passed. Michael's case. It's awful how, when you think back, Piers, when did anyone speak with him in a way where you saw him giving his own account of his own life, you know, and you could see his. How fragile he was in many ways, how suspicious he was. In Neverland Ranch, even Neverland Ranch, you go there, and it was a cold place where toward the last couple of years, he was virtually in exile there. I lament. We promised each other that at the end of the trial, if he were acquitted, we would get together and talk about how these people had scarred him over the years, these accusers and the reporters with whom they curried his favor and got him to sit down, to be ambushed and torn apart in a way that was really untoward and beyond the pale. He went instead to live in Bahrain. I think it was a guest of the sultan there, living a life as isolated as you could possibly be. And that's why the movie is so wonderful to remember how historically wonderful his performances were, his music was. This is a man who is a seminal figure in American pop cultural life. They called him the King of Pop for a reason.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, I mean, I saw him live. I saw him live in Paris, actually. An open air stadium, 80,000 people. I mean, without a doubt, the greatest live show I've ever seen. I mean, he was at the peak of his powers and it was the dangerous tour in the early 90s. It was unbelievable. And as I played a clip earlier, I got to interview him once for about just under an hour, maybe 40 minutes or so. But I just distinctly remember him getting incredibly emotional when he talked about the allegations. And that was 1999. So he lived with that, I think really deeply and, you know, I mean, curious what you think, Geraldo. Did you think it hastened his premature death because of the way his life went, that he kept taking more and more drugs?

[Geraldo Rivera]

I absolutely believe those people, in their greed, killed Michael Jackson. They went after him, they ate pieces of him, they destroyed him and spit out the pieces. And then, you know, when they hear how the estate has grown, suddenly, you know, things that weren't true become true 25 years later. You know, it's been 20 years. I haven't, you know, Piers, I never spoke to him again after the acquittal. I promised, amusingly, just pop cultural moment, that if he were convicted, I was so convinced of his innocence, I said that I would shave my mustache if he was convicted. And I remember we didn't have cell phones in the airplane in those times. I was in la, landed in New York just in time as the wheels touched down to hear that he had been acquitted. So it was aside from relief, I cheered. My brother Craig, who was producer, cheered, you know, my cameraman Greg Hart cheered. And everybody else in the plane was kind of, you know, because they believed the allegations, because they didn't hear the other side of the story. Well, Geraldo passes past you, stop playing.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm very relieved to hear the task survive because it's about as iconic as the moonwalk.

[Geraldo Rivera]

Yeah, thank you.

[Piers Morgan]

But let me ask Vincent. I mean, I mean, the question I've asked the others who believe him, you know, is I asked Thomas Mesuro. Now, are you absolutely sure? And he was completely certain. And I would flip the question to you a different way, which is, how can you be certain that Michael Jackson was guilty, was an abuser?

[Vincent Amen]

You know, I had been friends with Frank since he was a child. Michael was taking him on trips where the parents would let him sleep in bed. There was one instance during the trial where he had a conversation with Harvey Levin of Celebrity justice now tmz, and he explained to Harvey how he slept in bed with Michael and on hundreds of occasions and had graphic sexual conversations about women after That I had questioned Frank. And I said, is this true? And he said, yes, this is true. And Harvey went on the media and exposed that. And he reported. Just kept piling on top of each other. And it was an indication that there was something occurring with children in 2007. And I have been very outspoken about this. In 2004, I actually met with Tom Sneddon and Santa Barbara prosecutors to provide information to them of what I saw. If you see an instance of child sexual abuse, you are to come forward. And I also came forward in 2007. I walked into an FBI building in New Jersey.

[Geraldo Rivera]

New York.

[Vincent Amen]

FBI.

[Commercial Narrator]

Wait a second.

[Geraldo Rivera]

Why didn't they use you as a witness if you were so believable in 2004 on the eve of the trial, why didn't they use you? Why didn't anyone else believe you then? Why should we believe you now?

[Vincent Amen]

I don't think. I don't think it was a question of believing or not believing. I think it was a question of I didn't fit the case. I didn't fit their narrative. And you see, I was accused of many things. Holding them hostage. And when that was just totally, absolutely false. So when I went in there, I didn't fit their narrative. Because in a trial in the United

[Geraldo Rivera]

States, you didn't fit their narrative over. They did not believe you.

[Vincent Amen]

I didn't.

[Geraldo Rivera]

You were incredible.

[Vincent Amen]

Witness their narrative. They wanted you a craft thing forward. Listen, it's not about 20 years later.

[Geraldo Rivera]

You want to look back

[Vincent Amen]

20. 20 years later. I've been still trying to clear my name. Why would In a trial system of you being accused of something, coming forward, providing truthful information and documents and pictures. Why would they not use you as a witness? Let me speak. Let me speak. Why would you silence me?

[Geraldo Rivera]

That's our.

[Vincent Amen]

Why would you silence me? That's what we have to ask Ron. Zoning. Gordon, Archie and Thompson because they did not believe you. They did not believe you think Janet Arvizo is more believable than me? No education, just a hustler.

[Geraldo Rivera]

Isn't she the mother of the accused?

[Vincent Amen]

You mean the mother of the accuser accused me through Tom Sneddon of nefarious behavior.

[Geraldo Rivera]

I don't know.

[Vincent Amen]

So I went in to provide information.

[Geraldo Rivera]

How incredible you were compared to a ton of incredible. A liar.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring. Let me bring Mark Garagos.

[Vincent Amen]

How would I be a liar?

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring Mark Garagos back in. I mean, maybe you can shed some images, insight on why they didn't use the testimony of Vincent.

[Mark Geragos]

Well, I think he's right. I think he did not fit their narrative because, remember, when I referred to the. I believe it was the Count one, that was this whole idea that somehow Michael had orchestrated, like the wizard of Oz, some kind of a effort to silence the Arvizo family. Geraldo is right. Geraldo mentions the one. I believe it was welfare fraud. I don't remember as I sit here, but there was another incident that we had discovered related to a. I think it was a JC Penneys and an accusation that was made when. In connection with a shoplifting incident that greatly troubled us in real time. And part of the theory of the prosecution was that Michael was orchestrating this way to silence them. One of the problems here, if you will, and I'm building on what Tom Mesereau said, if you had looked at the evidence as I did, lived it in real time. I was on the case for about two years. And you saw what the allegations were that you had a hard time ever believing what the allegations were in that case. At the same time, I don't know what Geraldo's experience was, but by the time I got to Michael in 2002, because, remember, in the early 90s, he was represented by Howard Weitzman, who was kind of a mentor of mine and was a phenomenal lawyer in the 80s and the 90s. And when Howard engineered the result with Michael and Jordi Chandler, that was kind of the. At least from my standpoint, kind of the downward fall of Michael. By the time I got to Michael and was called in by Johnnie Cochran back in. Whatever it was, 2002, Michael was a shell of his former self. I never thought he would get through a trial. I remember standing next to Ben Broffman when Michael jumped on top of the SUV at his arraignment. And Ben jokingly said to me, if we don't get this under control, this guy's going to come to trial in his pajamas. And it turned out that he did, but I never thought he could weather that trial.

[Piers Morgan]

And ultimately, ultimately. And ultimately, Mark, do you have. You've been on both sides of this now for a long period of time. But what is your conclusion? What is your gut feeling? You're an incredibly experienced, very smart lawyer. What is your gut feeling about Michael Jackson's guilt or otherwise?

[Mark Geragos]

If you asked me what my takeaway of Michael is, besides kind of the iconic figure he was in the 80s, I remember one night being called to the house and picking him up on the floor after he had OD'd. And that, unfortunately, is kind of seared into my memory. I mean, by the time I got there, the lights were on, nobody was home, so to speak. And it's just they. And it's tough to reverse engineer anything else after that. He was in no shape before, during or after. To Geraldo's point, the wounds were extremely deep. I wasn't present. All I know is that I was in the weeds on the Arvizos at the time. And I don't disagree with anything Tom said about that, the Arvizo family and the facts and the evidence surrounding that.

[Piers Morgan]

So if you were to say whether you think he was guilty or not, what would you say

[Mark Geragos]

on the Arvizo case? I've always said the same thing. I saw nothing that led me to believe he was guilty in that case.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay. Fascinating conversation. We're going to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. Here's Morgan Ostenso, this proudly independent the only boss around here is me. You enjoy our show. We ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical. And we couldn't do it without you.

[Commercial Narrator]

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