"It's JARRING!" Christopher Nolan's 'The Odyssey' DISMANTLED By Victor Davis Hanson & Nerdrotic

Summary

Podcast Summary — Piers Morgan Uncensored: "It's JARRING!" Christopher Nolan's 'The Odyssey' DISMANTLED By Victor Davis Hanson & Nerdrotic
Date: July 15, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Piers Morgan leads a provocative debate about the newly released and highly discussed Christopher Nolan film, "The Odyssey." The panel, featuring historians, literary critics, and film commentators, explores the controversies surrounding the film’s historical accuracy, diverse casting choices (notably Lupita Nyong'o as Helen of Troy and Elliot Page as Sinon), and its perceived feminist reinterpretation of the classic Greek epic. The discussion moves from concerns about cultural appropriation and fidelity to the source material, to wider questions about Hollywood’s motivations and the nature of mythic storytelling.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of 'The Odyssey' and Modern Adaptation

• [00:00, 17:35] Critical Drinker:
  • Emphasizes "The Odyssey" is a "fantasy grounded in the real world," set in a specific historical and geographical context. He notes that casting should align with this for believability.
  • Points out Hollywood’s recent trend of "race-swapping" celebrated characters often feels out of place, suggesting that such casting should be consistent across all cultures: "If you had a movie set in pre-colonial Africa and a white actor played a tribal leader without explanation, it would seem especially odd." [17:35]
• [00:09, 11:08] Daniel Mendelsohn:
  • Highlights a modern trend to "de-Heroize Odysseus," making him less of a glamorous trickster and more pejorative. Finds fault with translations and films that reduce his complexity. Suggests that adaptations should honor both his cunning and flawed heroism.

2. Feminism, Representation, and Source Integrity

• [05:18] Samantha Morton:
  • Views her character, Circe, as part of Nolan's "feminist reimagining" where women are powerful and historically vilified.
• [06:07] Victor Davis Hanson:
  • Counters the critique that the Odyssey needed “feminizing,” citing its range of strong female characters including Penelope, Athena, Circe, and Calypso — all exhibiting power in different ways. Claims it is "one of the most enlightened works of Western literature" regarding its portrayal of women.
• [08:49] Ann Wilson:
  • Defends Emily Wilson’s translation (and its "feminist" reading), noting that women are central in the myth and even recounts Victorian theories that Homer may’ve been a woman due to the text’s female sympathy.

3. Casting Controversy: Race, Authenticity, and Subversion

• [00:33, 24:37] Victor Davis Hanson:

  • Finds it "jarring" that an epic Greek film would lack any Greek actors, likening it to filming an American national epic without Americans.
  • Accepts non-traditional casting when it's conducted "symmetrically," i.e., open in both directions, but objects when casting seems "subversive" purely to provoke or violate the author's vision.
  • Quotes: "To make this national epic, which the Greek people feel is a continuous tradition... and not have a single Greek actor... it's kind of jarring." [00:33, 24:37]

• [18:46] Piers Morgan & [19:09] Mark Lamont Hill:

  • Discusses historic whitewashing in Hollywood, with Lamont Hill noting that outrage now about Black actors in “white” roles often misses the long legacy of white actors playing characters of all backgrounds.
  • Lamont Hill is open to alternate casting in myth, but points out “the only one that seems so out of step that we can't stand it is the black one. And that's why Eartha Kitt made sense... not as dark as Lupita. It wasn't as jarring to people.” [29:54]

• [21:01] Daniel Middleton:

  • Argues that the issue with Hollywood’s diversity casting is its subversive motivation and hypocrisy, not authenticity per se. He suggests it signals disregard for the source material, using the “Rings of Power” as a parallel example.

4. The Purpose of Adaptation and Artistic Freedom

• [26:24] Daniel Mendelsohn:
  • Dismisses the casting controversy as overblown since Helen has a "tiny" role in both poem and film (~45 seconds on screen). Echoes that adaptations should be judged on whether they convey “the spirit of the original” rather than their surface details or accuracy of costuming/accent.
  • "Does this film convey the spirit of the original? That, in a large sense, is what matters." [26:24]
• [31:53] Mark Lamont Hill:
  • Critiques selective outrage: “Nobody matches ethnically... but the only one that seems so out of step is the black one. That’s silly. None of them fit.” Suggests the core of mythic retelling is artistic reinterpretation.

5. LGBTQ Representation and Further Casting Debate

• [32:01] Piers Morgan & Daniel Middleton:
  • Introduce controversy over Elliot Page (trans man) being cast as Sinon. Middleton suspects this is partly to satisfy present social pressures, and cautions that too many "subversive" choices break the spell of authenticity.
• [35:05] Victor Davis Hanson:
  • Argues minor roles can be recast without much issue, but central characters (like Odysseus or Penelope) are harder to change "without essentializing race or gender."

6. Hollywood Motivations & Awards Speculation

• [37:44] Piers Morgan:
  • Discusses whether awards rules around diversity and inclusion are driving casting decisions, citing online arguments (Tom Holland vs. Elon Musk).
• [38:54] Daniel Mendelsohn:
  • Emphasizes reviewing the film for its artistic handling of the source's complexity rather than surface-level controversy, appreciating Nolan’s narrative style as fitting for the Odyssey’s non-linear plot.

7. Box Office Predictions & Critic’s Reflections

• [41:49] Critical Drinker:
  • Predicts the film will be a major box office success, possibly reaching $700-800 million, but unlikely to reach “Barbenheimer” heights due to less immediate cultural resonance.
• [42:38] Daniel Middleton:
  • Reveals that content creators and critics don't necessarily profit more from negative reviews. Asserts "the best thing for my business model is being honest." [42:56]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Victor Davis Hanson [00:33]:
  “To make this national epic, which the Greek people feel is a continuous tradition... and not have a single Greek actor... it’s kind of jarring.”
• Samantha Morton as Circe [05:18]:
  “In history, women have been vilified... I think that was my take on it, but also Chris’s interpretation of the original text... condensing it into this essential oil of Circe was phenomenal.”
• Ann Wilson [08:49]:
  “Don’t forget the whole war broke out partly because a female... Helen, was abducted and partly because the female deities... wanted it to happen. So women are very, very powerful figures in this story...”
• Critical Drinker [17:35]:
  “Like any geographical location and time, it has demographics that are believable in that time and people who are not. And the best way to contextualize this kind of decision is... imagine a pre-colonial Africa film starring a random white guy.”
• Mark Lamont Hill [29:54]:
  “Nobody matches ethnically... but the only one that seems so out of step is the black one. And that’s why [Eartha Kitt] made sense, probably because she’s not as dark as Lupita... It wasn’t as jarring to people.”
• Daniel Mendelsohn [38:54]:
  “The main criterion has to be the central character, whether he comes across the way that Homer paints him: multifaceted, brilliant, slightly arrogant... that’s the question that should be raised.”
• Daniel Middleton [42:56]:
  “The most important thing to any content creator should be being honest.”

---

Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–02:20: Introduction; summary of the film’s controversy and panelist introductions.
• 04:20–08:27: Is the Odyssey feminist or already women-driven? — Views by Victor Davis Hanson, Ann Wilson.
• 11:00–16:10: Has modern translation “de-heroized” Odysseus? Daniel Mendelsohn & panel.
• 17:35–20:43: YouTube critics debate on realism, race-swapping; Mark Lamont Hill on historic whitewashing.
• 21:01–22:42: Daniel Middleton on authenticity, motivation, and diversity mandates in Hollywood.
• 24:37–26:24: Victor Davis Hanson on Greek absence from cast, cultural insult.
• 26:24–29:00: Daniel Mendelsohn on what really matters in adaptation (spirit vs. literal casting).
• 29:54–31:53: Mark Lamont Hill: Who gets to retell myths and why outrage focuses on Black casting.
• 32:01–34:29: Elliot Page as Sinon; is it a meaningful nod to LGBTQ inclusion or mere box-ticking?
• 35:05–37:44: Gender swapping and narrative authenticity: cases like James Bond.
• 37:44–38:54: Awards, inclusivity, and Elon Musk vs. Tom Holland online spat.
• 38:54–41:24: Mendelsohn on the film’s narrative style; is Nolan the right director?
• 41:49–43:11: Box office predictions; does controversy help content creators or critics?
• 43:11–End: Closing reflections on honesty in criticism and artistic authenticity.

---

Conclusion

The debate reveals deep fault lines between advocates of artistic freedom, historic consistency, representation, and the motives behind contemporary Hollywood casting. The consensus from most on the panel is that—while authenticity and context matter—overemphasizing surface-level changes risks missing the Odyssey’s deeper spirit. Ultimately, as Daniel Middleton notes, “the most important thing...should be being honest,” whether in movies, translation, or critique.

End of summary.

Transcript

[Critical Drinker]

The Odyssey is this epic fantasy story, but it's fantasy grounded in the real world. It's set within a very specific geographical location and time.

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

It partakes of a trend that we have seen in recent years to sort of, let's call it De Heroize Odysseus.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

The reason I smirked was because there's a long history in Hollywood of white people playing characters that should be black people. I mean, when we chartered the Heston as Moses was kind of wild.

[Daniel Middleton]

We're trying to challenge traditional beliefs. Well, that's something Christopher Nolan doesn't usually do. This is a game he doesn't usually

[Victor Davis Hanson]

play to make this national epic, which the Greek people feel is a continuous tradition from the 7th 8th century and not have a single Greek. It's kind of jarring when you go out of your way to get other people who would cause controversy and sometimes in a subversive manner.

[Piers Morgan]

Is it better for your business model that this is a massive turkey or a massive hit? With the notable exception of Top Maverick, there's no longer such a thing as an epic blockbuster with no strings attached. Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey, based on Homer's sprawling poem, is one of the biggest and most anticipated movies of the year. It's therefore no surprise that its release this week has been marred by furious debate about its historical accuracy, its colorblind casting and its reputedly feminist undertones. Critics say it's Snow White on steroids, a beloved classic shattered by the woke wrecking ball of demonic Hollywood. This time, they argue, it's gone too far. The victims of the alleged woke washing are not merely fictional dwarf helpers, but the characters of a foundational text in the grand sweep of Western civilization? But are they missing the point? Isn't Hollywood's role to reflect the changing world around us and not simply parrot the legends of ancient history? We have not one, but two epic panels to debate this, beginning with the classics. Well, Daniel Mendelssohn is a scholar, critic and best selling author of An Odyssey, A Father, a Son and An Epic. His translation of Homer's poem was published this spring in paperback. Ean Wilson is a novelist, biographer and journalist, also the father of Emily Wilson, whose feminist translation of the Odyssey is said to be the basis of Christopher Nolan's new movie. But first, let's talk to the historian and senior fellow at the Hoover Institute, Victor Davis Hanson. Victor, great to see you. Great to have you back on uncensored. What's your beef with the Odyssey?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

It's kind of a minor one, I think that I thought because that is considered the national epic of the Greek people. It might have been magnanimous of Christopher Lloyd to include someone in the tradition of Irene Pappas or Melina Mercuri, a great Greek American actor. But the whole idea of cultural appropriation is very controversial. I have no problem with a character in playing a role that the original author did not really envision, as long as it's symmetrical. And by that I mean, if you want to wear dreadlocks and you're white, that's fine. If you want to wear a blonde wig and you're black, that's fine. Just so it's reciprocal. The only problem is when the character is so far off from what the author intended that it affects the narrative. So I don't think it would be wise to make a movie with a white Martin Luther King bio or a black Abraham Lincoln. It'd be too jarring. But I have no problem that he's using an African American character for Helen and Clyde and Master or there's two character. They were mythologically sisters, so there's. There's no problem there. Zorba the Greek was played by a Mexican American actor, Anthony Quinn. He did a brilliant job. It's only when it's so jarring that it's deliberately interrupts the narrative in a way that it's almost impossible to follow if it's a character deviation or, you know, if somebody is. Has one arm and the character has two arms. But the Greeks were very tolerant of. And I don't really think that they had a notion of racial distinctions like we do. The. The Ethiopians are described by Homer elsewhere as the most noble of all people. So it's not. I don't think it's going to be. I don't think it'll affect the reception of that character. And whether Helen and. And Clyde and Mestra are well acted, or whether they enhance or detract from the narrative or the film adaptation of it will depend on the quality of the performance.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, I agree with that. I. I think that what has caught most attention, I think you have a view about this, is that Lupita Nyong', o, who plays Helen of Troy, she gave a recent press interview in which she seemed to criticize Homer for the lack of time he gave to women in his original work, instead choosing to tell the story from the masculine side, as she put it. Let's take a look. I'd be like, so, Homer, how do you feel about this screen time given to these women, considering how little you spent with them? Oh, okay. And then do you lean forward and look at him like that? Yes, like, hmm. Remember us now? At the premiere of the movie, Samantha Morton, who plays the Greek goddess and sorceress Circe, took the opportunity to reinforce the idea that this was a feminist reimagining of the mythical story. Let's take a look at that.

[Samantha Morton]

In history, women have been vilified, whether you're a midwife, whether you're, you know, a herbalist, whether you're a healer, whether you're just in tune with the moon. Like, women have just been vilified throughout history. And I think that that was my take on it, but also Chris's interpretation of the original text and then like, kind of condensing it into this, like, essential oil of Circe was phenomenal. And that I just worked from the text. It was all there for me.

[Piers Morgan]

So basically, I think the modern vernacular would be, Homer was a bit of a sexist pig. He made it all about men. And this film addresses the balance to make it actually more equal in terms of gender presence.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I'm not sure that's accurate.

[Piers Morgan]

That's my vernacular version.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yeah. Lupita, you know, she. She admitted that she had never read the Odyssey as an undergraduate or graduate. I don't know how you can do that in today's education at Hampshire and Yale, but. So if she had read it, I think she. And then thought about it for a long time. It's one of the most pro feminist works of Greek literature and it's really the seminal work because who. Homer is contiguous with the rise of the Greek city state. And if you look, there's every aspect of womanhood in that play. There's the loyal, crafty, brilliant Penelope who saves the kingdom while Odysseus is gallivanting around or is enduring all of these perils. She outwits these men. You've got Circe, who sort of reifies the idea that men can be pigs by actually turning them into pigs. She's all powerful. You have Athena, kind of the Parthenos, the virgin goddess, but she's also the goddess of wisdom. She's the most of all the Greek gods and in some cases the most powerful. She's the person who allows Odysseus to get home. You've got Calypso, who kind of has created her own area where she divines, defines her own sexuality. Then you've got. Even in. You've got Helen, the most beautiful woman in the world, and her sort of nefarious sister, Clytemnestra. So you've got almost every type of expression, whether it's domestic or single or are divine in that epic. And then you even have the monstrous women, the Scylla and the sirens who are all powerful and kind of evil. So the main character is a male, but most of the males don't end up well or are not portrayed well. Whether it's the 102 suitors or it's the crew of Odysseus that always breaks his advice to be moderate and temperate and not offend the gods and they all end up dying. Or it's a weak, weak, weak kneed Menelaus or it's the haughty but not very talented Agamemnon. So it's, I would say I, I would say for that period in the. It was probably composed somewhere orally around 700 to 675, that that was one of the most enlightened works of Western literature in the history of Western literature. So I don't, I didn't understand the criticism of the actresses, but I haven't seen the, the movie yet.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, let's bring in some of our other guests. A.m. wilson and Daniel Mendelsohn to start with. Well, Ann Wilson, your own daughter Emily wrote what people have perceived to be a kind of feminist translation of the Odyssey ad recognized that characterization. I mean, from what Victor was just saying, it sounds like it didn't particularly need feminizing. But what is your view?

[Ann Wilson]

Well, I wouldn't wish to speak for Emily, whom I adore and admire, but the last speech of Victor was bang on right. This is a book very largely about females. And after all, don't forget the whole war broke out partly because a female semi divine figure, Helen, was abducted and partly because the female deities, particularly Pallas Athene, but also Hera, the sister stroke, wife of Zeus, the chief God, want it to happen. So women are very, very powerful figures in this story and they're certainly very dominant figures. And also another person I'd like to bring to mind who isn't perhaps very familiar to all the audiences on both sides of the Atlantic is a Victorian scholar and writer called Samuel Butler, who was so filled with the ideas that Victor was just expressing that he believed that Homer was a woman, really that the author of the Odyssey must have been a woman because he was so sympathetic to the female point of view. So I don't think Emily Wilson, who is a great woman and has herself in a recent interview in one of the newspapers, the Financial Times said she doesn't regard herself as particularly modern. She thinks of herself as a sort of late Victorian. I think she's following along in this Victorian tradition of realizing that the Odyssey is very sympathetic to the feminine.

[Piers Morgan]

So just to be clear, I mean, you're not speaking for Emily, but obviously

[Ann Wilson]

she wouldn't like me to speak.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. But you know, her view about this. I mean, is she a little bit taken aback by this raging online debate about the supposed over feminizing of the movie? Because that in some way goes against the integrity of the original Odyssey?

[Ann Wilson]

Well, Emily is a U.S. citizen. She knows what the United States is like and she knows that there are sort of culture wars going on all the time. So she's not taken aback by anything, I don't think.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring in Daniel. So, Daniel, you. You've been quite critical of the translation for being too keen to strip the heroic and masculine out of the original Odyssey, is that right?

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

Sorry, which translation?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, of Emily's version for the movie.

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

Well, I think. I mean, I don't. My criticism of Emily's translation, I think has to do with the way that it partakes of a trend that we have seen in recent years to sort of, let's call it de Heroize Odysseus. So I think, you know, when there's a choice between two alternative possible translations for a word describing Odysseus, she'll use the most pejorative possible words. So, for example, there's an adjective in Greek that most people translate as extremely cunning or extremely clever. She translates it as liar. And I've seen this in other movie versions. For example, the movie the Return that came out a couple of years ago sort of strips away all of the glamour of Homer's Odyssey. You know, Homer's Odyssey has its protagonist, a character who is brilliant, funny, charming, insinuating, seductive, as well as being, you know, a Bronze Age hero. He's not averse to violence, he's not averse to trickery of a very dastardly kind. But he's an extremely complicated, to use Emily's adjective, character. And I do see in recent, both scholarly writing about the Odyssey in this movie, a kind of stripping away of Odysseus, what used to be seen as these sort of glamorous, brilliant, scintillating qualities of the character and making him into this as somebody just on Twitter referred to Odysseus as a mass murderer. You know, so I do think that's a problem. I think you have to give this character all of his many facets. And in my own translation, I'm trying to sort of be as scrupulous as possible. Not in, in trying to turn Homer into something that fits our ideas of masculinity or whatever, but as somebody who reflects the values of a, you know, a very remote culture in which a certain kind of, as we would say, performative masculinity was not considered to be a bad thing.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, you know, let me bring in, let me bring in a. We can talk like this for this.

[Ann Wilson]

Just reply to that.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Yeah, I.

[Piers Morgan]

To give you a right of reply

[Ann Wilson]

because I mean, I think Emily is enormously charmed by a disuse just to make that point. And one of the points she makes is that charming men often are extremely dishonest. But I mean, Virgil, for example, who was Homer's greatest fan and created his Aeneid out of the Trojan story. One of the very first things that the Trojans who are wondering whether to bring in a wooden horse into Troy, which is what led to its destruction, says is this really the way that we understood Ulysses character, as they call him Ulysses, we call him Odysseus if we agree. But in other words, Odysseus, among many other things was a notorious liar. And he lies and deceives and gives different versions of events throughout the Odyssey. And that's part of the humor. I mean, among other things, it's a very humorous epic. And one of the things that we enjoy about Odysseus, certainly I know Emily because I've known her for over 50 years, she enjoys about his character is that he is dishonest. And I don't think Homer to give her her old fashioned Greek word name. I don't think Homer wants to deceive us into thinking that Homer was thinking that Odysseus was a very.

[Piers Morgan]

Has he been upright for him? Has he been unheroed in the way that Daniel just articulated?

[Ann Wilson]

He's shown to be very brave. He's shown to be a good dad. Thinking back to an earlier guest on the program in which somebody was sharing the most horrific details of his son about erections and so forth, man called Brian Johnson.

[Piers Morgan]

Brian Johnson.

[Ann Wilson]

But I mean, I think there's a very good, not bromance, but a very good relationship between Telemachus and Odysseus and they weep together. And also it's a very. Among other things which we haven't mentioned, Odysseus is sitting with this beautiful woman, Calypso, having what many of us, if we were sad old men, think was rather a wonderful time on her island, having lots of sex and food brought to him. And so, and he sits weeping, thinking of his wife at home. And she, similarly, in Ithaca, is weeping, thinking of him, even though he's been deceiving her all through the marriage. And she knows that. But nonetheless, they love one another.

[Piers Morgan]

So there's been no deliberate Wilson plot.

[Ann Wilson]

I don't think there's a Wilson, dear Hero. No, very much not. And heroes are not the same as saints. And heroes are full of mostly flawed characters. They are flawed characters. Think of Achilles with the other great Homeric poem, the Iliad. He's full of the most terrible flaws.

[Piers Morgan]

And you've got to leave us. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. We really appreciate it.

[Ann Wilson]

It's amazing. Thank you so much.

[Piers Morgan]

Giving us, giving us an expert family response.

[Ann Wilson]

And the great thing is that we should all be read. I mean, the first speech was Victor saying he couldn't understand students going to a university and not reading Homer. And I can understand it, but I do wish they would because it's just the best book in the world. And Western literature has just been downhill ever since.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, well said. They should. And Victor, I think, would absolutely agree. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

[Ann Wilson]

Thank you, Piers.

[Piers Morgan]

We're going to sub you out. Ian Wilson, brilliant contribution. We're going to bring in two of our or three of our regular guests, actually, to talk about a lot of the more negative reaction to the Odyssey movie is being driven in part by the movie fan community on YouTube, which is very vociferous. So we're gonna bring in two of the biggest names in that space. Will Jordan, aka the Critical Drinker, and Gary Buchler, who's the nerdrotic. Of course, that's rounding off our truly epic panel host of BET News, Mark Lamont Hill. So welcome to the three of you. And Victor's kindly agreed to stay here. Now, Victor teed this up by saying at the start, critical drinker, the fuss, exclusively about the choice of having Lupita Nyong', o, a black woman African American actress playing Helen of Troy, was, you know, somehow wrong. That because mythology has her, even though she's not a real person, has her as a white woman. This shouldn't have been the case. What is your view?

[Critical Drinker]

Yeah, I mean, it's worth keeping in mind that something like the Odyssey is this epic fantasy story, but it's fantasy grand, grounded in the real world. It's set within a very specific geographical location and time. And like any geographical location and time, it has demographics of people that are believable in that time and people who are Not. And the best way to contextualize this kind of decision is say you had a movie set in pre colonial Africa and one of the tribal leaders was a random white guy, and none of the other characters thought that that was even remotely strange. No one reacted to it, and there was no explanation for it. That's kind of the similar situation to what you have with the Odyssey. It doesn't really make sense contextually, and I think that's what people are reacting to. And this is coming off the back of a period within Hollywood moviemaking where there has been a lot of rather bizarre race swaps of characters. I mean, if you go back to, you know, things like we produced over here in the UK where we've had an Asian Sir Isaac Newton, we've had a black Anne Boleyn, these are real historical characters. But we're now supposed to pretend that they're a completely different race, and it doesn't make sense.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. Martin Mont Hill, I saw you smirking with derision there. I think. I think I'm right in identifying the nature of the smirk. But if I said to you, look, I'm going to be starring as Othello next week in a massive Broadway version of Shakespeare's great play, would you feel that would be appropriate given I'm a white guy

[Mark Lamont Hill]

first? You read my smirk correctly. Your powers of observation and analysis have really sharpened since I started coming on the show. You're welcome. I think for me, the question is always, is it historically accurate? Yes. But also, what's the genre? If it's mythic, if it's fantasy, or. Or if the artist is explicitly saying, hey, we're not playing on historical accuracies precisely because of the fantasy aspect of it, I'm fine with it. But if you're actually not doing that and you're not eyes wide open, you don't show your cards, then it would be a problem. So if you were playing Othello and we had that conversation, I'd be fine with it. The reason I smirked was because there's a long history in Hollywood of white people playing characters that should be black people. I mean, when. I mean, Charlton Heston as Moses was kind of wild. You know what I mean? Was it Lawrence Levy who played The Mahdi in the 70s Film about Mohammed Ahmed al Mahdi in Sudan? I mean, it's fascinating to me to see. To see the outrage now, particularly since the characters.

[Critical Drinker]

We've got our issues with those pieces of casting as well.

[Daniel Middleton]

Yeah, I wasn't.

[Critical Drinker]

I'm not sure we should I made an entire video about casting choices in Hollywood, and one of them was John Wayne playing Genghis Khan in the Conqueror. I think that's completely absurd as well. So I've got plenty of issues with bad casting over the years, but. But that was 50 or 60 years ago. I can't do anything about that now.

[Piers Morgan]

Daniel Middleton, one of our other panelists here, penned a column for the New York Times entitled Does Matt Damon Look Greek? No. So stop complaining about Lupita and Yong'.

[Critical Drinker]

O.

[Piers Morgan]

In it, he asks, so what is Mr. Nolan up to? As it turns out, the auteur is using Helen, just as the Greek authors did, to provoke challenge and discomfort. How we think about beauty and identity, about who we are and how we relate to the world by that criteria. What's wrong with it?

[Daniel Middleton]

What's wrong with it? Well, what I primarily point out for the film is the hypocrisy from Hollywood. If you're trying to be provocative, then you are in. You're being subversive. You're just coming out and saying, yes, we're being subversive. We're being provocative with this casting. So it's not the best person for the role and it's not for authenticity. We're trying to challenge traditional beliefs or, well, that's something Christopher Nolan doesn't usually do. This is a game he doesn't usually play. And let's not forget that these beliefs, these quote unquote values of diversity and inclusion are baked into the awards rules. So they're baked into the company's rules and the awards rules. And we just had a film that completely flopped. Moana, the live action remake, that was, you know, touting how authentic it was to that culture. Well, that's just a fantasy. Why does it matter? And my argument is, if it doesn't matter, then why change it? It's the motivation behind the change that people sense. And it also is a red flag for how we're going to treat the source material and how we're going to go through, like, I saw this with the Rings of Power. The Rings of Power, they. They changed. They had black dwarves and black elves and, oh, by the way, they completely went off the text. So it's a red flag for something else. Now, Lupita Nwonga, if I'm mispronouncing her name, I apologize. But if. If she's in it for a little bit, like, the movie could still be good. It could absolutely still be good. But it's a red flag and it's subversive. Casting. So it does rile people up. It's meant to rile people up, just like the. The casting of Black Snape.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, Victor, let me bring you back in here, if I may.

[Victor Davis Hanson]

Yes.

[Piers Morgan]

What's your response to that argument?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I think Ed makes a good point about subversive. When we talk about people of different races playing characters, the complaint about Hollywood, say pre 1980, was that white characters, Burt Lancaster, Charles Bronson, Audrey Hepburn, who played Native Americans. And the issue was there were probably Native American actors who would have been more authentic. I don't know if they were as good actors, but there was no effort. But the point I'm making is they tried to look or appear as they were Native Americans. So when a Mexican American actor played Zorba the Greek, Anthony Quinn tried to look Greek and it was enhanced because he looked Greek in some ways. When Lawrence Olivieri applied to play Othello, he was white, but he tried to look like he was North African. But I think the other guess was right about trying to be subversive. In the case of Lupita, I mean, it would be kind of absurd to and modern sensibilities to have an African American actress or African British actress than where I guess we could use that word white face, so she would appear more. More authentic as far as the actual text of Homer goes. But it's. So it is a subversive act. It's saying that we're going to take somebody who does not appear anywhere near the look of Helen and why it might have been less subversive for Clyde or Messer, other characters. After all, Helen is a central character and caused the Trojan War. I have no problem, as the other guests said, about being subversive if that's openly. Your point is to draw attention, that you're trying to destroy characterization or traditional stereotypes. But it's not being authentic to what the author imagined. It might be your interpretation of what he imagined, but if he. It isn't. And again, I think just to finish, we have a whole tradition of it is kind of insulting to. You know, it's very unpopular alert. There's a lot of controversy in Greece. It would be as if you made, oh, an epic remade how the West Was Won, and you didn't have one American actor in it. You all had Europeans or Africans or Asians. So to make this national epic, which the Greek people feel is a continuous tradition from the 7th 8th century and not have a single Greek actress or actor, it's kind of jarring when you go out of your way to get other people who would cause controversy and sometimes in a subversive manner.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. Well, I was actually in Greece, coincidentally. I'm going to bring Daniel back in here. I was actually in Greece a few days last week, coincidentally, and I had this anger expressed because there are no Greeks in this movie. An open letter in the Greek City Times said Greek people did not disappear after the age of myth. Greek culture was not frozen in classical marble. Greek language was not extinguished in antiquity. We are still here. Now, if you go back in time, this is not the first time you've had a black actress play Helen of Troy. Orson Welles cast Eartha Kitt as his Helena TROY Back in 1950, something I didn't discover until this morning. So there is precedent for this, Daniel. It's been done. There wasn't the outcry then, there is now. But if I'm Greek, I'm probably looking at this going, yeah, I would take the view that Vita just articulated, which is, seriously, you're not going to have a single great actor in the Odyssey.

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

I mean, first of all, I think it has to be said that all of this is a sort of a tempest in a teacup, because as anyone who has read the Odyssey knows, Helen has the tiniest imaginable role in the Odyssey. And I have seen the film, and I think it's fair to say that she's on screen for maybe 45 seconds, literally. So that's one thing. I mean, it really seems to be silly to getting everyone's knickers in a twist about a very minor character. Is he trying to be provocative? Yeah, absolutely. I would say that of course you're not going to cast a black person as Abraham Lincoln because these are historical documents. And we know, you know, we have a sense of what historical characters look like. We have documentary proof. This is a fantasy epic. Right. We're all used by now to seeing all kinds of actors from of every imaginable extraction on the stage in movies, operas, playing kinds of people that were, you know, roles that were written originally for white people. It really doesn't matter to me. I think the real question to be asking about this movie, and I don't know who else among my fellow guests here has seen it. I saw it earlier this last Monday, is does forget about the details. Everyone's hysterical that the ship isn't accurate, the armor isn't accurate, the costumes aren't accurate. They speak with American accents because as everyone know, the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke with British accents. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. The real question I think we should be focused on here is does this film convey the spirit of the original? That in a large sense I would

[Critical Drinker]

say, like, well, where does it stop? If you start saying, well, the army is not accurate, the ships aren't accurate, the casting's not accurate, the accents are not accurate, the dialogue's not accurate. Like, what do you have left? Like, how far are you going to go with this?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, also, I don't think that's.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

I think that's common.

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

You can get the thrust of the story across its main themes. I don't think these incidentals actually matter that much. If it presents Odysseus as the kind of hero he is in the original. If it gets across the crucial themes of homecoming, the meaning of home, the allure of adventure competing with the desire for the stability of home, all of that stuff, then I'll be happy.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, I mean, let me bring in. I want to bring in Martin Lamont Hill here because of something Critical Drinker, whose video on the Odyssey has had over 5 million views, and critical drinker says 3 million.

[Critical Drinker]

Just 3.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm sorry, you've been promoted.

[Daniel Middleton]

Hit 5.

[Piers Morgan]

You've been promoted. It's been promoted by one of my team. Obviously, he just wants to make you sound even more successful and famous and rich than you already are, which is hard to imagine. So only 3 million views. But in it, you say, or you say about it, there's this weird assumption that every other culture, race and ethnic group in the world are entitled to their own unique stories, history and identity. And it all has to be carefully fenced off and respected, whereas anything created by white Europeans is treated like some generic all you can eat buffet that everyone's allowed to stick their hands into. Martin Lamont Hill, your response to that?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

I think that feeling is one that every culture and ethnicity and race has. I mean, we have this conversation every year whenever there's a movie about slaves or enslaved people in the United States. And we looked at all the actors aren't black people. They're getting played by Brits, you know, and it's a similar conversation internally within the black community, the African American community in particular, even about Lupita. And so I think that that feeling is common. But I think when it comes to European culture, European civilization, I don't see any historical record of that. I mean, the fact that we're still showing the Odyssey, playing the Odyssey, reenacting the Odyssey, rewriting the Odyssey. People make their academic careers just on translations of the Odyssey. We are obsessed with European culture and Centering it. And when one film comes out that has an alternate interpretation and a more fantastic. And I mean that in a sense, a fantasy, a more fantastic interpretation of it. We act as if, you know, the world is ending. And I don't think we need to do that. I think it's okay to have this type of interpretation. And I think if you were to subject any text or any film to historical scrutiny. If I were to look at any film about the 50s or the 60s, if you look closely enough at the clothes that they're wearing or the music that's playing, there's usually some anachronism there. It just so happens that we're sort of obsessed with this one, and it's finally, in terms of fidelity to the text. Most books that are turned into films are not the same as the movie. Go watch the Color Purple. It is absolutely different on screen than what happened in the book. What Spielberg did is very different than what Alice Walker did. That is a normal artistic gesture, and no one is confused about this. And it seems to me that the only people we're worried about, not you guys, but some people are worried about there, is the Lapita one, the smallest character in the film. Again, nobody's Greek. Nobody matches ethnically, nationally, et cetera, culturally with these characters. But the only one that seems so out of state, at a step that we can't. That we can't stand it, is the black one. And that's why Eartha Kitten made sense, probably because she's not as dark as Lupita. So. So it. It wasn't as jarring to people. But the idea that the black character has to be the one that we put on the outs of this is silly. None of them fit.

[Daniel Middleton]

Well, okay, let me bring Peter a lot, A lot, but that there's Zendaya, there's Elliot Page, which nobody's brought up. I mean.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I was actually literally about to ask you about that, so let me just ask you that. Nedronic. Because Elliot Page, formerly Ellen Page, a trans. Well, woman who became a trans man, is in the role of Sinon, a cunning Greek soldier and the cousin of Odysseus. It's been billed as another casting controversy said to be a nod to contemporary lgbtq, et cetera, politics. And the memes have been relentless. Let's take a look at some of these.

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

She. Her.

[Piers Morgan]

So that was inevitable, I guess, from the online stuff, because that's what the online world does. But, I mean, should we care about this? Is it a nod to the LGBTQ Culture war or is it just the fact that Elliot Page is a good actor, got picked for the role and does a good job?

[Victor Davis Hanson]

I think.

[Daniel Middleton]

I don't know. Oh, I'm sorry, was that for me?

[Piers Morgan]

Yes. Finna draw it. Yeah.

[Daniel Middleton]

Okay. I don't know if Elliot's a good actor or not. I think it's. You could make an argument that Christopher Nolan likes to work with people he has worked with before. And you can also make an argument that this is absolutely a nod for that. I think it's a little bit of both. And I don't know why you bring in a character that wasn't even in the original poem from outside it, you know, just for this, for this part. And those are changes that certainly can be made. And again, if Christopher Nolan's name isn't attached to this film, everybody's going to think it's a bomb. But Christopher Nolan being attached to this film, he gets a certain amount of respect that he absolutely deserves the benefit of the doubt, which he absolutely deserves. I don't know how much Elliot is actually in the film as well. It could be a very small part, as far as I know, and it still could be good. But you can't blame people. The context of this is, yes, there is a culture war. There's always a culture war. And there's one that it's an open culture war right now. And we are 10 years deep into it and we are seeing the same red flags and signs as we have seen with other films, be it historical drama or just known mythological text or just a well known story, that they are changing to be subversive. And people are now sensing that that breaks the spell, that breaks authenticity and it takes you out of the movie when you know what the motivation is. The motivation should be best person for the job, period.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, Victor. I mean, take for example the ongoing thing about James Bond, right, who's obviously a fictitious character, British spy. And I've never had a problem when there were rumors that Idris Elba may be the new Bond, of having a black man play James Bond, because I thought fictitious character. Why does that matter? I don't think the racial identity of James Bond is particularly pertinent to the movies. However, I had a big problem when there were rumors circulating it might be a woman, they might change James Bond's sex. So I don't even know if my views are consistent here with any of

[Victor Davis Hanson]

this debate, but I think they could be rescued. The issue is twofold. Are these. First, the anachronisms, are they within the parameters of the believable. So if you have a ship, does it sort of look like a trireme or does it look like a US destroyer, to be extreme? So. And the same thing with the characters. Do they. Do they approximate the image that you want to convey, that this is happening in early Greece? And same thing, I think, with race. If you have a very. If you have Ian Fleming's novel and it's very male centric and masculine in the 1950s or 40s sense, and you have a black actor, you can say, well, race is incidental, not essential to who James Bond was, because he's a man of action. But when you bring a woman in, then that's a bridge too far because it violates the entire ethos or atmosphere of who James Bond is. And I think Daniel made a good point. When the two minor characters are the two sisters, Kleiner Mestro and Helen in the Odyssey, they almost have. No, they don't have very many lines at all. So if you want to bring in an African American and work within the boundaries. But if you were to cast her as Penelope, that's a central character and that would bring attention so that her race would be essentialized rather than incidental to the character of Penelope. And I think what he's doing is, and I haven't seen the movie, but I think he's working around the periphery. He's using trans actors or black actors in roles that you're usually not accustomed to see them in, but not tampering with the essential Odysseus. This argument would be raging if Odysseus was black or Asian, as it would be with other works. If you had a Martin Luther King novel and the person was white, that would be jarring. Even if it was fiction, nobody would want to do that. But if you had an advisor who was black and you changed that advisor to a white person for ecumenicalism or diversity, nobody would really object. So the question I have is, is he doing this because these are great actors and they will enhance even these minor roles, or maybe even to stretch it a little bit. Is he doing it to open people's sensibilities, or is he just doing it, as has been suggested, to be subversive or even. Even for to please the people who produce the movies and distribute them and award them?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, there is another theory, and I'm going to bring this to Daniel, because there was a very entertaining spat online on X between the historian Tom Holland and Elon Musk. And it began when Holland posted lots of People telling me the Odyssey is a terrible film on the basis of not having seen it. I've now watched it twice and it is by some way the best cinematic adaptation of a Greek myth I've ever seen. It honors Homer while simultaneously making something new of him. Now, Elon Musk disagreed, saying Chris Nolan desecrated the Odyssey so that he would be eligible for an Academy Award. Now, he then called Holland a cuck, which is, we believe, because he got the wrong Tom Holland. He thought it was the actor who plays Spider man, who he thinks is in the thrall of his actress, girlfriend and now wife. We, we believe. In response, the actual Tom Holland, the historian responded, very happy to say it again. The Odyssey is an amazing film and missing out on seeing it because you think it's woke or whatever is cutting off your. Or whatever is cutting off your nose to spite your face, your loss. So, Daniel, you have seen it. Would you concur with Tom Holland?

[Daniel Mendelsohn]

Well, here in the States there's a very strict embargo on, on reviews, so I can't, I can't say too much about it, but I do think does bring across some of the, the big moments, you know, the moments we know and love. The Cyclops, the, the incredible shipwrecks, you know, the storms at sea, Scylla, the six headed dragon that eats his men and, and the great whirlpool, Charybdis. I will. Piers, I'm going to have to answer your question obliquely by repeating what I said before. I think, and I'm responding to something, Victor, that you were saying. The main criterion has to be the central character, whether he comes across the way that Homer paints him, which is as multifaceted, brilliant, slightly arrogant, violent when he needs to be, but also charming, seductive. You know, he's a bit of a James Bond himself, actually, come to think of it. And that to me was the big question. I just, I just filed my own very long review of the movie. But I do think that's, that's the question actually that should be raised. But, you know, I'm a fan of Christopher Nolan. When it was announced that he was going to be doing this, I was very enthusiastic, partly because, you know, one of the things about the Odyssey that I think needs people need to think about in evaluating how this adaptation works is not the details, but, you know, Homer has a very complicated way of telling this story. It does not unfold chronologically. There's incredible looping back in time, stories within stories, conversations within conversation. You know, it's a Very kind of knotted way of storytelling. And that is something I think Chris Nolan, as I'm sure many of you have seen his movies, this is something he loves playing with his own plots. His own movies often are very complicatedly narrated, moving back and forth between past and future and through time. So I thought this is the right guy for the job. And that's one of the things that I appreciated about the way he handled Homer was not the substance, let's call it, but the style, which seemed very Chris Nolan ish and very American.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm a massive Nolan fan. I think he's a cinematic genius. But let me go to our two movie gurus here and just get a prediction for how it's going to do, because early numbers suggest the Odyssey's on track for a massive domestic opening in the United States of 80 to $100 million. So, critical drinker, is this going to be another Nolan smash hit, do you think?

[Critical Drinker]

It's definitely not going to lose money, put it that way. I don't know if it's going to reach the same heights as something like Oppenheimer because there's not quite the same immediate cultural attachment to it as you did with something like Oppenheimer, which is still within living memory. And we're still living with the fallout of that, for lack of a better word. And it doesn't have the Barbenheimer effect, which really pushed both of those movies to much greater heights than they would have had individually anyway. So I think something in the region of 7 to 800 million would be a reasonable number for this film. I think I could see it reaching that pretty easily.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, and the drotic. Finally, a difficult question for you. I could have put it to either of you, and I picked on you mercilessly. Is it better for your business model if this is a massive turkey or a massive hit?

[Daniel Middleton]

Believe it or not, it doesn't matter, really. Same result either way I have gotten. If we're talking. If we want to break down the financials. When I praise a movie, when I it. It gets the same amount of money as when I. When I don't. It's what the best thing for my business model is. Being honest.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah.

[Daniel Middleton]

So if I love this movie, I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you, I love this movie. And the. You know what? The race swaps didn't matter. This thing was a masterpiece. And I'm a fan of Nolan. But the most important thing to any content creator should be being honest.

[Piers Morgan]

I 100% agree with that. Authenticity. I think it's why young people are gravitating more and more to channels like yours and this one and others. You just gotta be authentic and people will love you, they'll hate you, but they can't deny you are being true to yourself. And that's the most powerful weapon a human being has. What a fascinating debate. What a great panel. Thank you all very much indeed. I appreciate it.

[Critical Drinker]

Thank you.

[Daniel Middleton]

Cheers.

[Piers Morgan]

Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Uncensored media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.