Piers Morgan (2:11)

is complete fiction, far from a betrayal. Poll after poll after poll has found

Dave Smith (2:17)

massive overwhelming support for the President's strikes on Iran among Republican voters.

Adam Sosnick (2:22)

There are numbers that just jump off the screen at you, and this is one of those, because just take a look here. MAGA GOP view of Trump approve 100%. 100%. If you are a member of MAGA and the GOP, you approve of Donald John Trump 0% say that they disapprove. You don't have to be a mathematical genius to know you can't go higher than 100%.

Bill O'Reilly (2:47)

Right now, there's a big fight going on between Megyn Kelly and Ben Shapiro about Candace Owens. And as it plays out, it's very important to remember that the most common reaction to it from Americans is, I

Adam Sosnick (2:59)

don't know who any of these people are, and I don't know what the

Bill O'Reilly (3:02)

fuck you're talking about.

Piers Morgan (3:04)

Well, clearly millions of people do know who the fuck you're talking about. Clearly, CNN knows all about it. As they now invite podcasters and influencers on all the time. They now seem to want to look like podcasters and influencers themselves. The problem is the assumption that media audiences are stupid and just do as they're told, which is no truer now than when legacy media is at its peak. What they can do is change the narrative and call it hypocrisy. Where they see it, they. They do this effectively and repeatedly. Trump's MAGA corps has always been right behind him. That's not in dispute. They're famously the people who still back him if he shot someone in Fifth Avenue, as he said. But they're nowhere near enough for him or any Republican to win the next presidency. Trump won by building a remarkable anti establishment coalition of pissed off liberals and young men wearied of woke, of libertarians sick of wars in the Middle east, of black men and Hispanics who felt they'd been taken for granted, of swing voters who were sick of the status quo and liked the sound of America first. These are the people that MAGA is deserting. If the apparently irrelevant podcasters still have numbers the President will sell an arm for, well, they are the reason why. In a moment, we'll be addressing the apparent MAGA rift with Dave Smith and Adam Sosnick. But first I want to begin by discussing President Trump's influences and options with the former U.S. defense secretary and CIA director, Leon Panetta. Mr. Panetta, welcome back to Uncensored.

Bill O'Reilly (4:26)

Good to be with you.

Piers Morgan (4:27)

Pierce, what the hell is going on? Make some sense of it, please.

Leon Panetta (4:34)

Well, it's, you know, it's obvious that the President was in a very difficult situation. The regime change, which was, I think the initial objective was not working, and intelligence indicated that the regime is even more entrenched. I think the President wanted to declare victory and bring the war to an end. We certainly have achieved a lot of our military objectives there. But the problem was that with the Straits of Hormuz closed Frankly, Iran had a great deal of leverage, and there wasn't much chance of getting a ceasefire without the Straits being open. So the President faced a choice. Do you open the Straits for Hormuz militarily? Do you try to negotiate? Do you try to get our allies to be able to open it? He was struggling to try to find an answer, and evidently there began to be some negotiations here, and now he's held up on strikes. And the hope is that they can find a way to open up the Straits of Hormuz. The Iranians are probably the best people that could do that, because they know where the mines are and they know how to clear the straits in a much more rapid way than anybody else.

Piers Morgan (5:51)

When you were running the CIA, you must have, I guess, looked at the potential to affect regime change in Iran or do something about Iran, given the way its tentacles were spreading through the Middle east in nefarious ways. But nothing got done. We've now heard that the Israelis had gone to President Obama and to President Biden and said, we're going to attack Iran. Are you with us? The answer came back no. And both times they then didn't do it. Do you think that Trump, in the end, succumbed to pressure from Israel to get involved here?

Leon Panetta (6:32)

Well, you know, I think President Trump was concerned about Iran, concerned about the threat from Iran. And I do believe that when Israel came to the president with the idea that they had intelligence on where the Supreme Leader was located and that they could ultimately destroy their key leadership and that would ultimately allow the protesters to take to the streets and would bring down the regime, I think that was, frankly, something that Israel and then I think President Trump probably thought could happen. I think it was a little naive because the intelligence indicated that. That the regime was much more entrenched than that. But nevertheless, they thought that could produce a very quick result and that the war could end quickly, I think that was a miscalculation on the part of both Israel and the United States.

Piers Morgan (7:34)

But any calculation about attacking Iran in the way that the United States and Israel ended up doing it must have automatically factored in something going on with the Straits of Hormuz, because that would be the most obvious, it seems to me, way that Iran might retaliate would be economically, because they can't compete that effectively militarily. And I would have thought it would be reasonably obvious that they may also attack some of their Gulf State neighbors in the way that they have done oil refineries and so on, if their own refineries came under attack. None of this seems to me to be exactly rocket science. And yet the administrations of both countries appear to have been taken a bit by surprise. Or have they?

Leon Panetta (8:24)

No, I think one of the concerns is that there wasn't a lot of time kind of considering the consequences of what could happen when you attack Iran. I mean, we had looked at the potential of some kind of conflict with Iran, and it was very clear to all of us that one of the first things that Iran would do is close the Straits of Hormuz. It's an obvious result. It's easy to close, and it can impact on oil prices and creates a tremendous amount of pressure on whoever's attacking Iran. So what concerns me is I think they really didn't focus on that as a very real consequence. They seemed ill prepared to deal with it, rather than having a plan of how you would maintain the straits to be open. And as a result of that, I think Iran developed even more leverage in terms of trying to make the United States understand that the regime was very much in charge of the Straits of Hormuz, and that as long as that was happening, prices of oil would increase dramatically, it would impact on prices not only here in this country, but throughout the world, and that at some point it could have a major impact on the economies of the world. And I think the President understood ultimately that the only alternative he had was to find a way to get the straits open. Now, they're hopefully in discussions, and if they can open the straits, I think there is a chance that perhaps this war could be brought to an end.

Piers Morgan (10:18)

I mean, Iran still possesses the same enriched uranium it had before this war started. It's clear that Netanyahu has said so publicly that air power alone cannot win this war in the way that they originally intended, which would include getting their hands on the enriched uranium. Is there any other way to get that enriched uranium? Assuming the Iranians don't just hand it over as part of a deal, which I think is extremely unlikely, Is there any way to get it other than to use ground troops? And how big a risk would that be for Donald Trump to commit U.S. ground forces?

Leon Panetta (10:59)

Well, you know, there's no question that that would be a very tough military operation. This stuff is buried deep in the ground. Nobody has any easy access to it. They would have to be able to rappel down and probably face a tremendous amount of opposition there, since it's such a clear objective for the United States. So, in the end, the best way to deal with that issue is to get energy authorities to again go back into Iran to be able to inspect and be able to make sure that that enriched fuel does not wind up in a nuclear weapon. That's probably the best way to ultimately deal with the nuclear threat.

Piers Morgan (11:55)

I just want to end Leon Panetta by talking about Robert Mueller for a moment. Because you ran the CIA when he ran the FBI, you became, I think, pretty close as a double act, working often for the same purpose. When he died, President Trump posted on his truth social platform, Robert Mueller just died. Good. I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer hurt innocent people. Now, this is somebody who, aside from his work at the FBI, was a Vietnam. He saved the life of a wounded colleague under enemy fire. The following year, he was shot through the thigh. He received a Bronze Star, a Purple Heart and two Navy Commendation Medals. For the President of the United States, to describe somebody with that record serving his country as good. I'm glad he's dead. What did you think about that?

Leon Panetta (12:52)

I thought it was disgraceful what the President said. I know Bob Mueller. I knew him very well. We worked together when I was CIA director and he was FBI director and we worked closely together. Bob Mueller was a patriot by every definition of the word. He was committed not only to serving this country as a Marine and serving bravely, but serving this country as FBI director. He was well respected by everyone who dealt with him. He was somebody totally committed to our system of justice. He was respected by people in the FBI and in the judicial system. Bob Mueller is going to go down in history as a real stalwart in protection of the laws of our country. That's not going to happen with this president who basically avoids the rule of law every time he gets a chance.

Piers Morgan (13:54)

You know, I've always had a problem with the way Donald Trump talks about people when they die. You know, I just think the basic good manners, distinct taste, especially from the office of the president. I remember when Colin Powell died, when John McCain died, recently with Rob Reiner died, that sometimes he just blurts out what he may be thinking, when the best thing may be to just say nothing at all. Do you feel that?

Leon Panetta (14:25)

I work with a lot of presidents in the time that I've been around Washington and every president I knew, whether I agreed or disagreed with their politics, had a basic human decency and a respect for other individuals and just had good manners. Good manners to respect other people whether they agreed or disagreed with them. This is the first president who has none of those values, basically says whatever he thinks. And basically, as a result of that, I think people understand that this is not somebody who really respects the decency of other human beings. And that's just the way he is. It's unfortunate because frankly, presidents, every president I knew, knew that basic decency was a critical element of that individual's character. And that's missing from this president.

Piers Morgan (15:42)

Yeah. And you know, the problem is I see a lot of people who were sort of defending it on social media from the MAGA crowd, and my response to them would be, I remember how furious you all rightly were when people gloated when Charlie Kirk was murdered, for example. And I agreed it was disgusting. Some of the things I was seeing from the more woke liberal left in response to Charlie Kirk's murder. But you can't be enraged by that and then laugh when the President of the United States says this about Robert Mueller. I'm afraid that is just rank hypocrisy. And either way, the bottom line is, like you say, when people die, just basic dignity and grace should kick in, I believe. Leon Panetta, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it.

Leon Panetta (16:32)

Good to be with you, Pierce.

Piers Morgan (16:34)

Todos e siente mascaro hoyen dia poresto importa TikTok shop tien. TikTok Aurora. Joining me to debate this and more, Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem, a libertarian who backed Trump in 2024, and Adam Sosnick, who's the valuetainment host and PBD podcast regular, a former liberal who backed Trump in 2024. Well, welcome to both of you. Dave Smith will come to the tsunami that greeted your last appearance on Uncensored, led by Ben Shapiro a little later. But first of all, this sort of quaint notion now being peddled by people in the mainstream media that the podcast world is irrelevant. No one's ever heard of any of the podcasters or we YouTubers or anything, and we should all just be ignored. I don't think that's true.

Dave Smith (17:36)

Oh, I mean, it's just. It's patently absurd on its face. I mean, again, I'm not trying to, like, overstate the influence that any one podcast or show has, but I mean, lots of people listen to shows, they don't necessarily agree completely with the host of that show. But again, you know, to say, look, I mean, Pierce, if you look at the polls, what the polls tell us is that this is the most unpopular war in American history going into the war. And CNN is going to read you these North Korea numbers. Actually, in fact, I think it was better than Kim Jong Un did in his last election, 100% of MAGA. But what does that really mean? I mean, the truth is, Pierce, you kind of nailed it here in your opening, right? Even when Joe Biden was clearly senile and was forced to pull out of his reelection campaign, the majority of Biden supporters still supported him, you know, and like there was still going to be like 40 something percent of the electorate would have voted for Joe Biden. Now that wasn't enough, though, and that's why they forced him out, because you need a coalition. Coalition to carry you here. So this comes down to, like how you're defining maga. If you wanted to say Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn and Andrew Schultz and, and all these guys, they're not maga. Well, okay, but they were relevant enough for Donald Trump to go on all of their shows in the campaign. And the point is that the coalition that got Donald Trump elected in 24, that got him for the first time ever to win the popular vote, that coalition has been destroyed. And the final thing I'll say is this, Pierce. I made this prediction on my show the other day, but right now you kind of have these two broadly speaking camps, say Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, maybe people like me who are saying the coalition has been destroyed. And then on the other side, you have people like you played bacha Ben Shapiro who are saying, no, no, no, the coalition is fine. What we've learned is that Tucker Carlson doesn't matter. Give it a couple months, Pierce, and I promise you everyone on that side will say the coalition has been destroyed and it's Tucker's fault. This is, this is going to tank Donald Trump's presidency. We're already past the point of that. The Democrats are going to win the House and the. It's gonna be impeachments and subpoenas and investigations for the next two years. And I don't think anyone from this administration can win the presidential in 28 at this pace.

Piers Morgan (19:54)

Right. Well, Adam, you're part of a very successful podcast. Patrick Bet David's been a regular on this show, as have other members of your great team. And, you know, I would say just from a personal, you can only judge it personally, I guess, but I've been on some of the biggest TV shows, mainstream TV shows you can think of, right? America's Got Talent for six years, Britain's Got Talent. I replaced Larry King at cnn. They air my show three times a day in America and around the world and so on and so on. And what's been fascinating to me in the last couple of years is I get more people come up to me in the street, wherever I am, whether It's New York, LA, London, Sydney, the Middle east, whatever. More people come up and they're a bit younger than came up when I did any of those shows. And they're all coming up about my YouTube show and they're all watching it avidly and they're watching other shows like yours, like Dave's Tucker. Cause they talked to me about all this. Two guys last week from Denmark, 19 I think they were, stopped me in the street in West London. Passionate viewers of uncensored. Right. It was really fascinating to talk to them. So I just think this idea that people who operate away from mainstream media now, like you, like me, like Dave, like others, that we're kind of irrelevant and no one knows who we are, is completely contradicted by reality. I just see it in the streets. So I don't know whether it's self preservation going on that the mainstream media doesn't want to accept. There's been a shift in power. But what do you think?

Adam Sosnick (21:33)

So we're talking about the mainstream media. So how much trust do you have in the mainstream media? But let me answer that. So number one, Pierce, great to be with you. Dave, good to see you. It's been a little while. And thank you for dressing up. Dave, the question that you're asking is are young people watching social media? And they're watching YouTube, obviously. Duh. My mom still watches the news at 8pm and if she misses it, that's it. She doesn't see it. She hasn't figured out how to get on social media. She still tries to ask me how to find her, how to find me on YouTube and on Instagram. But yes, the 35 and undercrowd is on social media. And I'll tell you an anecdote I used to I'm registered independent. I never voted for Trump. And then I, you know, had common sense and realized you vote for Trump who might be brutish and an A hole or you vote for a weak, feckless, I wouldn't even call it leader like Kamala. And obviously the choices pretty easy. But I would debate with my liberal friends one that was very, very, very tight with the Clinton people, part of the Hillary Clinton campaign. And he, and he noticed as I was starting to get, become more, let's just say less Trump hating. This is in 2023, 2024 run up to the election and then he goes, dude, I don't even know what happened to You. You're like, full on MAGA now. I go, no, I just have common sense. I see what's going on in the radical left, and it just. It's so un American to me. And he goes, yeah, you're just in your little YouTube world. I'm in the real world with the real politicians and the real polls. I got the real stuff going on. I go, hey, buddy. His name is John. I go, john, this is the real world now, guy. Yeah, well, we'll see. So obviously, we see what happens in the election. This is not the type of person that likes to apologize, Right. Comes up to me and he goes, adam, I was dead wrong. You're right. This is a new YouTube world. Congratulations on all your success, Pierce, and Welcome to the YouTube world. It is what it is.

Piers Morgan (23:27)

Okay, well, we're sort of in broad agreement there. Let's get to broad disagreement, I suspect, which is the way this war is playing out. I mean, Dave, I've really struggled to work out the upside for Donald Trump from the start of this, doing this so close to the midterms, doing exactly what he said he wouldn't do, which is he was going to stop attacking Middle Eastern countries. It was all going to be America first, a premium on sorting out American problems in America. And then suddenly, he launches a war on one of the biggest countries in the Middle east, certainly one of the best armed. And all hell has broken loose, not least to the global economy, which is inevitably going to have and already is having a very detrimental effect on living standards for average Americans. If I'm an American that voted for Trump, I'm like, I don't get this. You know, I might in a poll say I get it, but I don't think I really get it.

Bill O'Reilly (24:29)

Yeah.

Dave Smith (24:29)

And then you also have to consider there, Pierce, Right? Like, there's. There's a sizable percentage of people who support Donald Trump, who approve of the job broadly that he's been doing, who maybe, look, we're three weeks or whatever into this, go, all right, I'll kind of give him a chance. We'll see. But if this doesn't turn into any type of win, and if it turns into a clear disaster, which it already seems to be, that's only going to hurt him more and more and more. You know, I think, look, Pierce, it's. Despite the fact that it is not in my incentives in some way as, like, a political commentator, like, I hope this whole thing just works out great. And then I know that all the people who don't like me will Say, ha, ha. You were warning that this would be a disaster. I hope that I would much rather take that deal and live in that. But Pierce, the other element there is that, right, we had the 12 day war in the summer and I've certainly heard, I heard at the time, some on debates that we did on your show and others, and I've heard nothing but since then on social media that ha, oh, you guys were so stupid. You were warning about exactly what we're seeing right now, which is what all of us were warning about, who are critics of the 12 Day War. And they. But the Iran didn't do that. And they were like, look, we got away with it, one and done, no Americans dead, and that's it. We don't have to do anything else. They spent the following six months bragging about how the nuclear threat had been totally obliterated. Now we find ourselves, Pierce, back in this same situation. And as I mentioned last time on your show, the big picture here is that clearly the calculation changed for Iran. They no longer feel that it's in their incentive for self preservation to not strike back and kill Americans or not do maximal damage. And now clearly with a younger, more radical Ayatollah who has not promised to not build nuclear weapons, they've made the calculation that actually they can't not give us a bloody nose, that they have to really make this cost us. Otherwise we'll be back in another few months doing it again. And of course, at the beginning of this war, Donald Trump said this was a full regime change war and called for the people to rise up and overthrow their government. And the people did rise up, Pierce, in support of their martyr Ayatollah and in support of this regime. I know you saw some of those aerial shots. There must have been hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets in Tehran in the most liberal part of the country supporting the regime. So I'm sorry, at this point, this just looks like a catastrophe. And the best we can hope for at this point is that it only ends up killing like 10,000 people and it only ends up costing tens of billions of dollars rather than the 200 that Secretary Hegseth has asked for. And this all relies on two major factors. Think this, Pierce. It's not just that Donald Trump has to call it quit and declare victory or whatever, but then we got two other entities that are majorly involved in this war, Iran and Israel. Now, we know at this point Iran is saying they're vowing not to stop. They talk a lot of bluster. Who knows? Maybe they will. But Israel, Pierce, we all know they want the regime change here in the 12 Day War. And in this war already, they've hit targets after Trump has clearly asked them not to. Who's to say they don't continue doing that?

Piers Morgan (27:35)

They.

Dave Smith (27:36)

And it begs a real question of how we get out of this quagmire. Three weeks in, we're already there, right?

Piers Morgan (27:43)

So, Adam, you've had a little spat with Dave on social media. When he called it an illegal war of aggression on X, you said, come on, guy, read the room. Dave responded, let's not pretend you read Adam. To which you replied, I'm able to read scoreboards. You are losing big time. Do you still feel that? Do you still feel that? Because I would argue that the scoreboards militarily, absolutely would show that the United States and Israeli combined forces have inflicted enormous damage on Iran's military capability. I think that's inarguable. However, what I don't think has been properly factored in by the Americans and Israelis is the ability of Iran to wage an economic war in parallel to a military war. And that by controlling the Straits of Hormuz and by attacking, as they have done their neighboring Gulf states, both oil refineries and tourist hotspots and so on, they've managed to freak everybody out, and they freaked the global markets. And this is incredibly damaging to Donald Trump because every day that Straits of Hormuz is shut, then you will see the impact for the next few weeks and months coming through the U.S. economy and the global economy. But the U.S. economy, you know, when fertilizer, when the impact of that being stopped comes through in a couple of months time, it takes a while to cut through to the actual people of America, but it will. And when it does, it's going to be very damaging. Do you not think that the longer this goes on, the more of a miscalculation has been made here?

Adam Sosnick (29:28)

Look, I'm not the Trump is the all be MAGA guy. I'm the guy that was like, yeah, I'm not so sure about this Trump guy. You know what? Oh, I got the fake news. Oh, Russia, Russia, Russia. Oh, it turns out, yeah, you know, he's way better than the other side. So I had to use logic and as a measured approach to get me to the point where I'm like, he's the guy. So I'll ask you another question. Let's say Trump wasn't here. What's Kamala doing? Oh, no, get me wrong, I think

Piers Morgan (29:57)

Kamala Harris would have been a terrible president. I thought Joe Biden was a terrible president, and I do. I've always said with Trump, I think I find myself agreeing with some of the things he does and disagreeing with others, which I think is the right way to deal with Trump. I think if you just judge him on what comes out of the.

Adam Sosnick (30:13)

That's just like with anything, you're not going to agree with everybody and disagree with that.

Piers Morgan (30:17)

Right, right. And look, when I came on the PBD podcast, I loved it because we disagree about stuff. And you guys, come on, we disagree, we agree, we never fall out over it, nor should anybody. Right. But on this specific call about Iran, I did say on day one, I think this is a massive gamble and I don't understand the timing. And I think the capacity for this to go badly wrong is very high. The longer has gone on because Trump originally was like, this is over in days, then it's over in a couple of weeks. Then everything started changing. Then the regime change he said was going to happen with people rising up. None of that has happened. There are lots of reasons for it. I think the reason we saw so many pro regime people hit the streets was they were not going to get killed doing it. We, we saw in January when people protested against the regime, a lot got killed. And obviously there are bombs flying around all over the cities of Iran, which will also put people off, I guess. So there are lots of reasons, I guess, why people are protesting or not protesting in certain ways. But to me, the justification for this war has changed so many times. It's made me think, I don't think Donald Trump has any clear idea of what victory looks like, do you? I mean, if the regime remains intact and they keep their enriched uranium, for example, and they maintain control of the Straits of Hormuz, is that victory?

Adam Sosnick (31:44)

Well, look, this was not an easy decision. You think, you know, these guys have been in power 47 years. Everybody in our microwave hustle society wants this done in the next four to seven weeks. It's going to take some time. And we've already. I was talking to A good Navy Seal buddy of mine, Navy Seal, he said, dude, we've taken out 80% of their military capacity. Not bad in less than a month. So let the guy cook a little bit. So you also talk about Dave, that, oh yeah, they had people out there pro regime.

Piers Morgan (32:12)

Yeah.

Adam Sosnick (32:12)

Nobody's denying that 10 to maybe 20% max of the country is pro regime. But what about the 80% of the country that's like, if they Had a comedy show. There was 100 people that magically showed up to Dave's comedy show. Oh, my God, he has so many fans. Dude, there's 100,000 people outside that didn't go to the show. I'm not being, like, brutish or sarcastic, but just. You're taking a small sample size and extrapolating that for the entire country. We all know.

Piers Morgan (32:40)

Well, actually, just to be. To be clear who this regime is. Well, hang on, Adam.

Adam Sosnick (32:43)

We all know that this is regime.

Piers Morgan (32:45)

Just to be technically correct on that argument you're making, if 100 people turned up to watch Dave's show, then technically over 8 billion chose not to.

Adam Sosnick (32:57)

Correct. And that's pretty uniform at this point.

Dave Smith (33:00)

This is really making me feel bad about my numbers on the road.

Piers Morgan (33:03)

It doesn't necessarily mean that 8 billion people. It doesn't mean there are 8 billion people who don't like Dave Smith.

Adam Sosnick (33:09)

I used to own a couple. No, it's fine. I mean, I actually do like Dave Smith. Let me tell you a Dave Smith's story. I actually have respect for Dave Smith. But I realized who Dave Smith is, and I would say this to his face or on camera. Dave Smith is a radical libertarian. Don't take my word for it. You've said this multiple times, have you not? Dave Smith said what?

Dave Smith (33:33)

That I'm a radical libertarian?

Adam Sosnick (33:34)

Yes, absolutely, yes. Okay, perfect. So when you're something, you're radical. What's in other words?

Dave Smith (33:41)

What I believe in it. Well, what I believe is true Americanism.

Adam Sosnick (33:45)

Extremist. Okay.

Dave Smith (33:47)

This is why you're all relative terms.

Adam Sosnick (33:50)

This is why you call. Sure. This is why you call the US Military the greatest terrorist organization on earth. Right? Because you're a true American. Because you're a true patriot. Is that why, Dave? Because something tells me you have what is known as clickbait of the mouth, and you're using this. These instances, these wars to garner attention for you. You're calling. You have the American flag behind you, yet you have the hypocrisy of saying the United States military. United States is the greatest terror organization the world has ever seen. I mean, I don't understand what's going on here. This is why you're radical.

Dave Smith (34:24)

I didn't say. I didn't say it.

Piers Morgan (34:25)

By the way, I'll tell you what, hang on.

Jesse Ventura (34:27)

I never said that.

Piers Morgan (34:28)

To be fair to Dave, let's replay what he actually said on this show, which caused all the furore led by Ben Shapiro. We'll play what he said and I'll Play what Shapiro said about it and then we'll come back today for response.

Dave Smith (34:43)

The IDF is the worst terrorist organization in the region. Let's get real. The United States of America is arguably the worst terrorist organization in the world. If you want to look over the last 25 years, how many innocent civilians we've slaughtered, it doesn't matter. It turns out how many times you appear on Joe Rogan's show, or how many times you hide behind your title of comedian who holds the Guinness Book of World Records for fewest jokes told, or how many times you spew puerile analogies that demonstrate nothing but unbelievable willful ignorance of the nature of war. I'm sorry, but you hate the country. If you say America is the worst terrorist organization in the world, you just do. Now I know that Dave Smith is super duper excited that his name was mentioned here and he's sitting there shouting at his TV screen in his basement debate me, bro. To which I answer, I don't debate with trolls who claim that America is the biggest terrorist state in the world because that is idiotic.

Piers Morgan (35:34)

So Dave, as you know, that all blew up, a lot of debate raged about it. Just, I mean, clarify what you, what you meant. Do you regret phrasing it the way you did? Just give us a bit more meat on the bone?

Dave Smith (35:47)

No, I don't, I don't regret phrasing it the way I did. And I'll, I'll be very clear about what I'm saying. I will point out that it's quite something for Ben Shapiro, just since you played him, I gotta respond to him first that he goes, oh, I just won't debate with this guy because this is so beyond the pale. Ben Shapiro made his name debating 19 year old communist Maoists who were confused about their gender. So somehow, Pierce, we're going to have to believe here that I'm so much less serious than the children who Ben Shapiro made a career debating. I loved your response to him where you pointed out some of the goofy segments that he does on his show. I mean, personally, I really stay away from that stuff. And you know, for Adam, I think to say it's clickbait or that I just want to get out in front of the camera. I think we're all equally in front of a camera right now and it's kind of weird to accuse someone else. I very much believe the things I'm saying now, to Adam's point, Dave, don't run because there's a.

Adam Sosnick (36:41)

Don't run from it.

Dave Smith (36:43)

I'm Trying to address the comments.

Adam Sosnick (36:45)

Would you? Good. You're. Let's go. Wrap it up.

Dave Smith (36:48)

No, I'm going to make the points I want to make.

Adam Sosnick (36:50)

You called, you called the United States military.

Dave Smith (36:53)

You're just slowing.

Adam Sosnick (36:54)

Okay, so you called the United States military the greatest terror organization in the world. Adam, defend.

Dave Smith (36:59)

Just, just let me answer. No problem. I'm going to go back to the order. Going to Adam's point. When Adam says, I'm a radical libertarian and I say that this is true Americanism. I mean, look, my favorite founding father is Thomas Paine. Not everyone considers him a founding father. And maybe I love him so much because he never held a government position and didn't own slaves, which I thought was pretty cool. But Benjamin Franklin said he was the most consequentialist and the one person most responsible for the United States of America existing. His famous pamphlet that he wrote was called Common Sense. And I think on the first or second line of it he says government is at best a necessary evil. So at best he's like, this is clearly on the anarchist to night watchman state spectrum was what true Americanism was when it started. Now for me to say what I made the point, and I've made this point a million times on your show, Pierce. I was saying when people come on and say Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism, well, just like give me an objective definition of what terrorism means and then let's apply that standard universally. And if you're going to sit here and say, look, America has given billions, tens of billions of dollars to the IDF in the last few years. We've also, by the way, given a lot of weapons and money here, your first guest on this show there, the head of the Obama deep state was using Al Qaeda bin Ladenite head choppers on the ground in Libya and in Syria. And yes, Adam, I would also consider it when our politicians lie us into wars that slaughter millions of innocent people and in many cases target those innocent people, I consider that terrorism as well. There's the answer, Adam. And if you want to keep doing this, buddy, you could tell me to check the scoreboard. I'll run circles around you on this, dude. Check the scoreboard. Most unpopular war in American history going in. Check the scoreboard. 13 dead Americans and 150 plus other wounded. Thousands of innocents, including little schoolgirls in Iran, killed dead innocent Israelis, hundreds of dead innocent people in Lebanon, millions of innocent people being displaced all at the cost of tens of billions of dollars and destroying Trump's coalition. Check your scoreboard. Adam, how's it looking for you?

Adam Sosnick (39:05)

Okay, Dave. Okay. It's not working well for you, Dave.

Dave Smith (39:09)

Substantively respond to anything.

Adam Sosnick (39:10)

You're saying that United States. You're saying that. You're saying the United States is a terrorist organization. You've already lost the debate. You live in America, tough guy. You have the luxury of sitting in

Dave Smith (39:21)

your little studio with your hooded sweater

Adam Sosnick (39:24)

like you're 17 years old. The regime. You mean all American president. Who's your favorite President the last 50 years, Adam?

Dave Smith (39:31)

I'm 17 years old. I have a wife and children who depends on you, Adam. Your mom.

Adam Sosnick (39:39)

Okay. I also.

Dave Smith (39:40)

I mean, you want. If you want to make it personal.

Adam Sosnick (39:42)

So you want to go.

Dave Smith (39:43)

You want to make it. You have a significant other.

Adam Sosnick (39:44)

We can go as personal as we can go.

Dave Smith (39:46)

No, I'm trying not to.

Adam Sosnick (39:47)

We can go as personal as you

Dave Smith (39:48)

respond to one thing.

Adam Sosnick (39:49)

I don't care, dude. I don't care.

Dave Smith (39:52)

I know. Because you don't know anything.

Adam Sosnick (39:53)

You're a radical.

Bill O'Reilly (39:54)

Vomit.

Dave Smith (39:55)

So stop picking a fight with me, dude. You don't know anything about anything. You're Pat's guy.

Adam Sosnick (39:59)

I know.

Dave Smith (40:01)

I like you.

Adam Sosnick (40:01)

Here's what I will tell you.

Dave Smith (40:02)

I respect Pat, Dave.

Adam Sosnick (40:04)

Okay, Zay zip, here we go. I'll talk now for a second. I'm defending the military right now. You're basically saying that all our boys that go to the military are all terrorists. That's what you're saying. No, you're equating that the United States of America, the idf, are the equivalent of. Of ISIS and Al Qaeda. By the way, I also used to respect you until. Until you went on a little podcast called Coleman Hughes. What happened on that podcast, Dave? This is the problem. Why don't you do it right now?

Dave Smith (40:36)

Why don't you do it?

Adam Sosnick (40:38)

I'll do it right now, Dave. I'll do it right now. Because here's what Dave is. Here's Dave Smith, by the way. 1% of Americans vote for libertarians every year. So you're trying to basically say that you know more than the average American. 1% of Americans vote for your people, Dave. Why don't you run for something? Why don't you stand for something? You stand for nothing.

Dave Smith (40:59)

Okay, can I respond again, Pierce?

Adam Sosnick (41:01)

This is the level of substance. No, no. Here we go. I'm going to tell you a story, Dave, and then you can respond, because this is where I lost respect for you as a debater, because I was like, oh, this guy Dave, he actually knows some stuff. He's doing his thing, and Then you showed up on Coleman Hughes podcast. Pierce, do you know who Coleman Hughes is?

Piers Morgan (41:19)

I do. He's been on the show.

Dave Smith (41:21)

I've been on the show with him.

Adam Sosnick (41:22)

Perfect. Perfect. That's this guy right here. Just in case. If the camera doesn't see.

Piers Morgan (41:28)

But what is the point you're making?

Adam Sosnick (41:29)

I watched this podcast. The point is this. Dave gets out there and he tries to bully people and say that he's so smart. He reads a lot. A lot of books. Good for you, Dave. But what happens when you read it to somebody, Run into somebody who's way smarter and bullies the bully? I remember growing up in this town of Miami, so it was this kid that used to pick on all the kids that we went to school with, and one day some new kid showed up and he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go, buddy. Let's do this. And the bully goes, oh, what do you mean? What do you want to do? And he goes, no. Yeah, you want to fight everybody? You want to take everybody's lunch? Let's go. And the new kid beat the crap out of the bully. And here's what happened with Dave. He's out there just doing his little podcast thing, debating, like you said, Ben Shapiro, 19 year olds. And then all of a sudden, this whole conversation about Wesley Clark. And I saw him on your podcast about a week ago, Pierce, and this memo. Here you go, Dave. Remember this memo from Wesley Clark that you used to cite everything.

Dave Smith (42:23)

This is adorable.

Adam Sosnick (42:24)

That you used to cite. Yeah, that is adorable. Because your whole.

Dave Smith (42:28)

When do I get to.

Adam Sosnick (42:29)

Based on some memoir. Well, I'm starting something, Adam.

Piers Morgan (42:33)

I'm not quite sure what is the point you're making.

Adam Sosnick (42:36)

The point is this. Dave has zero credibility at this point. Dave has zero credibility.

Dave Smith (42:40)

You don't really get to decide that.

Adam Sosnick (42:43)

Completely bullied. What audience? The four people comedy show at the ha.

Piers Morgan (42:49)

Yeah. Okay, Dave, you respond.

Dave Smith (42:52)

Okay, can I. Can I respond now? Because I listened.

Piers Morgan (42:54)

Well, I mean, the question I'd ask you, Dave. The question I'd ask you, Dave, is the way. The way that you're.

Dave Smith (42:58)

Let me respond to some of that.

Piers Morgan (43:00)

I just want to ask you, just on a general level, how are you

Adam Sosnick (43:03)

going to respond to what? There was like, a body bag after that.

Piers Morgan (43:07)

Respond.

Dave Smith (43:08)

Well, you ain't. Well, you ain't doing nothing, bro. You're sitting here talking about what another man did.

Adam Sosnick (43:12)

Let me already been in a body bag, Dave. I'm here to clean up the scraps.

Piers Morgan (43:16)

Okay, let me just ask Dave this, which is, as you know, the Comment you made about America being a terrorist on that went pretty viral. Do you understand why a lot of people got very angry about the perceived equivalence between America and terror organizations like isis, like Al Qaeda and so on?

Bill O'Reilly (43:37)

Yeah.

Dave Smith (43:37)

No, well, listen, I mean, there's no question that. That head shot.

Adam Sosnick (43:40)

I think he does, but go ahead.

Dave Smith (43:41)

Hey, Adam. Adam. I mean, just let me talk now. I know, I understand. All you can do here is interrupt and hold up props or something, but let me make a few good points.

Adam Sosnick (43:48)

I'm just. You said that America is a terrorist organization. You've already. Already lost the debate. Go ahead.

Dave Smith (43:53)

No, I haven't, actually. And that's not. You don't really get to decide in the middle of the debate whether I have. It's who moves people more than the other one is really, I guess, the metric. But you're 1% libertarian.

Adam Sosnick (44:05)

Really moving people.

Dave Smith (44:06)

I mean, Adam, I understand this will just be your tactic for the rest of it because you're out of. And you're just out of your depth. But here. Okay, yes, actually, I didn't vote for the Libertarian nominee.

Adam Sosnick (44:15)

Go ahead.

Dave Smith (44:15)

Donald Trump came. Donald Trump came to the Libertarian Party convention and tried to convince a lot of us to support him. And I'm one of the people who did. And now I'm one of the people who's criticizing this policy. Now, in terms of. Obviously, Pierce, it's a provocative statement. I know that when I make it, and I'm not claiming that the American military men are the equivalent of ISIS or Al Qaeda, obviously, they're much more barbaric. These head choppers, the one who Leon Panetta and Barack Obama all sold weapons to and partnered with, and the one who Donald Trump recognizes the press. President of Syria. I'm not saying that they don't. One isn't more barbaric than the other. I'm simply making the point, Pierce, that if you define terrorism as targeting civilians in order to affect a political change, then by that objective definition, the US Military and the IDF are more guilty of it than anyone else over the last 25 years.

Piers Morgan (45:09)

Their argument is always that the US military and the IDF do not deliberately target civilians.

Dave Smith (45:16)

Yes, Pierce. But again,

Piers Morgan (45:19)

I'm just saying for the benefit of fair.

Dave Smith (45:20)

That's not true.

Piers Morgan (45:23)

Whereas the difference being that genuine terror groups like isis, like Al Qaeda, they deliberately and brazenly target civilians for political purposes.

Dave Smith (45:34)

Pierce, Pierce, when you have roaming blackouts for nine days in Cuba because we've embargoed the energy that can go there. I'm sorry, that is targeting the civilian population, when Hamas slow rolled roles the remains of dead Israeli prisoners. Excuse me, whatever. I don't know. I get in trouble for using the wrong word. The dead Israelis that they were holding captive even after all the live ones are out. And the response from the Israeli government is we're going to cut the aid to the civilian population in half. That is targeting civilians. And when you drop bombs all over cities and you know that innocent civilians are going to be killed, that's targeting civilians. Now as far as some of the other stuff here, look, in terms of the debate with Coleman, I encourage people to go watch that. It's only people who already disagreed with me going in who say I got body bagged there. The rest of the people tend to say it was a kind of a good respectful back and forth. And both people had some moments. But for Adam to say, I only debated children up until Coleman. I debated Dennis Prager, I debated Douglas Murray, I debated Josh Hammer at an Oxford style debate at Princeton University and absolutely smoked him on the Oxford style voting. Debated him again at Charlie Kirk's event. I have been, I've been coming on this show. How many debates have me and you done, Pierce? I've been willing to debate whoever wants to debate this subject for over two years now. And so to. To say that I'm just being Ben Shapiro and going around to college campuses and debating 19 year old dudes in wigs claiming to be women, it's just not true, man. I debated Chris Cuomo right in front of you, Adam, the biggest host at cnn. So I just think this is ridiculous. Coleman made some. Listen, I'm not gonna say a negative thing about Coleman. He didn't attack me. He went at the issues. And I really appreciate and respect that. I've actually been trying to host him on my podcast. I hope he'll do it.

Piers Morgan (47:26)

Okay, Adam, your response?

Adam Sosnick (47:27)

Yeah. And why. And listen, I do respect the fact that Dave does show up.

Piers Morgan (47:33)

He does.

Adam Sosnick (47:33)

I mean that's like, okay, cool, you showed up. Respect to that. I will give Dave credit. But Dave, and this is why I'm gonna keep going back to this, to pretend that it was an even match, an even debate. He put you in a body bag and you're out here still, still doubling down on all your positions when he went methodically and surgically.

Dave Smith (47:56)

This is the saddest thing. I've never been in a debate where someone just fell back to someone else's debate. Boom, boom, boom. Name one of the booms. Make the point for yourself. Me and you are Supposed to be debating here.

Adam Sosnick (48:08)

The memo from Wesley Clark, your whole foundation for your Israel. So listen up, little guy. So your whole foundation, Israel, dragging America into war was that this memo from Wesley Clark showed up and that's the reason that America got suckered into the Iraq war, because Israel convinced them to do it. And he went in surgically and methodically and very calmly, was like, Dave, you don't know what you're talking about. Your entire foundation crumbled. And you're different. You're doing your little.

Dave Smith (48:41)

Can I respond?

Adam Sosnick (48:41)

Or you're doing your negative.

Dave Smith (48:42)

Can I respond to this?

Adam Sosnick (48:43)

But the point is this. You're Holland's open three hour debate with Coleman Hughes. It wasn't close, Dave, and that's fine. You want to sort of be a revisionist, your opinion.

Dave Smith (48:56)

No, I'm not being revisionist. We went point for point.

Adam Sosnick (48:58)

No, Dave, that was any person with logic.

Dave Smith (49:03)

Your only response was, this is so ridiculous, dude.

Piers Morgan (49:06)

Adam, it is an unusual position to spare.

Adam Sosnick (49:08)

It's not ridiculous, Adam.

Piers Morgan (49:09)

It's an unusual position that I've had, you guys, because that's the guy's to debate so far.

Adam Sosnick (49:15)

I said, this guy is actually a lightweight, Adam. He's actually a lightweight.

Piers Morgan (49:19)

Adam.

Dave Smith (49:20)

This is that moment for you, for a lot of people, Adam, congratulations.

Piers Morgan (49:24)

My point to you, Adam, would simply be it's an unusual debating Strategy to spend 10 minutes of this debate talking about another debate that most viewers may not have seen.

Dave Smith (49:34)

Yes, it's.

Adam Sosnick (49:34)

I mean, there's other debates that we can bring up. The fact. Dave, when's the last time you were in the middle?

Dave Smith (49:41)

Okay, so this is what you're falling back to now? Yeah.

Piers Morgan (49:44)

Right.

Dave Smith (49:44)

No, you know the answer. You're not asking.

Bill O'Reilly (49:46)

I've answered.

Adam Sosnick (49:47)

I don't know the answer.

Dave Smith (49:48)

And you know the. I have not been to the Middle East. Go do your best Douglas Murray acting job. Adam. Adam. Brother, I was prepared to come in here on friendly terms. So why you are humiliating yourself right now, friends, I'm really humiliating yourself right now.

Adam Sosnick (50:03)

You've been humiliating yourself for the past two years, basically saying that America is a terrorist organization, that the IDF is a terrorist organization, and you're whitewashing actual terrorism. What are your thoughts on Islamic terrorism coming into the West? What are your thoughts on the war in the West? What do you think of isis?

Dave Smith (50:22)

What do you think? Are you asking me questions?

Adam Sosnick (50:24)

Go ahead.

Dave Smith (50:25)

It's a huge. It's a huge.

Adam Sosnick (50:26)

I'm asking you a question.

Dave Smith (50:27)

And it's a huge. Huge. It's a huge risk, especially right now, after we just murdered in ayatollah and his whole family, what's a huge risk blowback? Terrorism is a huge problem. And not secure borders is a nightmare of a policy.

Adam Sosnick (50:41)

I'm not talking about.

Dave Smith (50:42)

I'm very concerned about terrorism.

Adam Sosnick (50:44)

Terrorism. Do you see what's going on in the West? Do you see what's going on where Piers Morgan lives in London? Do you see what's going on all over?

Dave Smith (50:53)

Advocate immigration controls for many years.

Piers Morgan (50:56)

By the way.

Dave Smith (50:57)

You're just making stuff up because you have nothing, dude. Nothing here.

Jesse Ventura (51:02)

Man.

Adam Sosnick (51:03)

Is a terrorist.

Piers Morgan (51:04)

Adam.

Adam Sosnick (51:05)

Organization.

Piers Morgan (51:05)

Adam. If you brought my country anti American

Adam Sosnick (51:08)

and here I am as a proud American saying that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Piers Morgan (51:12)

You said that. You said that Dave couldn't talk about the Middle east because he hasn't been there much. When was the last time you were in England?

Adam Sosnick (51:20)

I spent many, much time in England. My ex wife was.

Piers Morgan (51:24)

When was the last.

Adam Sosnick (51:25)

She wasn't a sheep shagger.

Piers Morgan (51:26)

When was the last time?

Adam Sosnick (51:27)

The last time, the last time I was in the. In Europe, in England, in the Middle East. Where would you like me to go?

Piers Morgan (51:32)

No. England. England.

Adam Sosnick (51:35)

The last time I was England was about eight years ago.

Piers Morgan (51:37)

Right. So this idea.

Adam Sosnick (51:39)

Let me tell you, last time I was in Israel.

Piers Morgan (51:40)

Let me tell you, the last time

Adam Sosnick (51:41)

I was in Israel.

Dave Smith (51:45)

We have to put this episode out.

Piers Morgan (51:48)

There is a weird idea. There are many people.

Adam Sosnick (51:51)

Are you saying that not going to a country.

Piers Morgan (51:54)

Adam. Many people. Hang on. Many people on the conservative right in America seem to be under the illusion that my country has been taken over by radical Muslims. Let me tell you, I have lived here on and off for the last eight years, unlike you. And respectfully, we have not been taken over by radical Muslims. It just hasn't happened the way it's been sold by people like Tommy Robinson to Americans. And you're all laughing about it.

Adam Sosnick (52:20)

How would you define it then, Piers? How would you define it then, Piers?

Piers Morgan (52:23)

I think we have a Muslim population which is predominantly peaceful and inclusive and settled well. And we have some radical members of radical Muslims as we have radical members of other religions in this country. And we have to be very wary about

Adam Sosnick (52:43)

what other members of radical religions.

Piers Morgan (52:46)

And we have had severe immigration control issues run by successive conservative and labor governments who frankly lost control of our border both to illegal immigration but also allowed way too many people in legally. And these are proper, legitimate things to be discussed. But framing it as some people like to do, as my country's been overrun and overtaken by radical Muslims. Is just a lie. It's just not true. So yes, there are things to be concerned about and yes, I want to see. I want to see everyone who comes here assimilate and everyone who lives here assimilate into our culture. Of course I do. But this idea that we've been overrun and overtaken is nonsense.

Jesse Ventura (53:31)

Yeah.

Dave Smith (53:31)

Pierce, can I just make one point?

Adam Sosnick (53:32)

One thing. It's all going out of proportion that everything that everybody is saying about Sharia law being imposed in London and Birmingham hasn't been imposed.

Piers Morgan (53:41)

It hasn't been imposed. Okay.

Adam Sosnick (53:43)

Anyway, you're saying that it's.

Piers Morgan (53:46)

There are a number unofficial Sharia courts operating. They have no legal basis or standing in the UK whatsoever. There is no Sharia law being operated legally in this country. End. It doesn't matter.

Adam Sosnick (53:59)

Thank you, Piers. Thank you for enlightening me. So you're saying it's all overblown. That is one of the.

Piers Morgan (54:04)

Come over with the whole PBD team and let me take you on a guided tour of the UK and trust me, you'll be fine.

Adam Sosnick (54:13)

I'm sure you're going to be the most dangerous places. I'm sure you're not going to Birmingham or Brick Lane or anything like that.

Piers Morgan (54:21)

I love Brick Lane. Best curries in England. I love Birmingham. Fantastic place.

Adam Sosnick (54:26)

Incredible Bangladeshi curry.

Piers Morgan (54:28)

I'll take you there.

Adam Sosnick (54:30)

My central thesis here is that Dave thinks that the United States military and the IDF are the equivalent of the Ayatollah and the Hezbollahs.

Piers Morgan (54:40)

You made that point, Dave. Final point here. I know, final point.

Dave Smith (54:43)

I mean, just. I think we all kind of agree that like open borders and lack of immigration restrictions are not very sound policy and that ought to not be in place. But I do just want to say to the. I guess almost brushed up against.

Adam Sosnick (54:55)

Isn't that what libertarians believe in though? Don't. Don't libertarians believe.

Piers Morgan (54:59)

They didn't finish anyway?

Dave Smith (55:01)

Let me just finish one point, Adam. Since you have nothing to say, just let me finish the point anyway. No libertarians, you've been in a body

Adam Sosnick (55:08)

bag for about a year.

Dave Smith (55:09)

Then let me finish. Yeah, great, great, great. Okay, I've been in a body bag. Anyway, let's see what the reaction is. Let's see. Let's see what the reaction to this debate is. Okay, we'll take a look at that when it comes out anyway. But the idea that.

Adam Sosnick (55:21)

That we can gladly do that. You're defending terrorism and you think the United States is a terrorist organization. Let's see what rational MAGA people think. Go ahead, Dave.

Dave Smith (55:31)

Let's, let's see. Okay. Anyway, the idea that, you know, you're making the point that the General Wesley Clark thing has been torn apart and that that was my entire case for Israel trying to push America into these wars is absolutely ridiculous. There's much more to it than that. And that. And that hasn't been torn apart. Pierce, is anyone going to seriously argue that Israel trying to push us into this war with Iran isn't a factor? As Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history, brags about how this is the culmination of his entire

Piers Morgan (56:01)

life's warning, this Marco Rubio. Well, Marco Rubio, Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, said it very clearly that America preemptively got involved in the strikes because Israel were going to attack Iran. And so America thought there would be revenge attacks against American interests.

Dave Smith (56:18)

And Netanyahu's been coming here every other week to try to lobby Trump into this war.

Piers Morgan (56:29)

I would love to continue this. Please come back again another time. I loved having you on. Dave, always good to see you. I sadly got to leave there, but I appreciate it both very much. Thank you.

Dave Smith (56:40)

Enjoy that body bag. Enjoy that body bag. Look out for the comment section.

Piers Morgan (56:45)

Thank you, gentlemen. Well, thanks.

Dave Smith (56:48)

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Adam Sosnick (57:05)

And all delivered with plenty of time

Piers Morgan (57:07)

left on the clock.

Dave Smith (57:08)

So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-granger. Visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

Piers Morgan (57:18)

To David Adam, I'm joined Now by Bill O'Reilly, the host of no Spin News and author of Confronting Evil. Bill, welcome back to Uncensored.

Bill O'Reilly (57:27)

You expect me to follow that? Morgan, come on,

Adam Sosnick (57:32)

really?

Bill O'Reilly (57:33)

You know, and this isn't a shot at anybody, but this is just for your audiences. Look, there's so much propaganda and misinformation that flows from people who are trying to get attention or make money on social media that it's almost impossible for regular folks who live their lives and have families and trying to do the right thing to know the truth. So I'm glad you have me on because this is the educational portion of the Piers Morgan program where we back up everything we say. We don't get into these insane conspiracies or talk off the cuff. We know what we're talking about. So thanks for having Me back.

Piers Morgan (58:18)

Bill, always great to have you. You know that. The Iran war. What is your overview about where we are? And do you think that Donald Trump miscalculated how Iran would respond in particular in relation to the economic war they've been waging with the Strait to Hormuz and the way they've attacked the Gulf, neighboring Gulf states with their oil refineries and with tourist spots and so on.

Bill O'Reilly (58:46)

Okay, I'm going to do a stair step here. In every single war that's ever been fought in the history of mankind, there have been miscalculations, everyone, because the fog of war cliche is true. Once you start to unleash violence on a mass level, you can't predict what will happen. And mistakes are always made by the victors and the people who lose. So that's history. Now, I did an interview with Lindsey Graham on my podcast called We'll Do It Live that can be seen everywhere. On billoriley.com is where we live. And it's probably the best informational. Okay. Interview ever done on this subject of the Iranian action. Because Graham, although he is a hawk, is privy to A, intel information on a daily basis and B, has Trump's ear speaks to him all the time. Graham laid out why the administration did what it did. Now, you can disagree with it, you can think it's foolish, but the facts are that there was a reason to do this and the reason still has been undefined. So the messaging of the reason wasn't really put out there so the world could consume it. Graham did that in my one hour conversation to him very precisely. So if you really wanted to know why America attacked Iran and Israel as our ally, you listen to that. All right? And it's unimpeachable. Nobody has said, oh, he's not telling the truth. Oh, this isn't true. It is true. Now, as far as calculating cause and effect, Yeah. I mean, it struck me that the Trump administration should have anticipated a problem in the Strait of Hormuz and might have bombed that area to make it more difficult for the Iranians to attack the tankers. But I'm second guessing now American and Israeli intel and the Pentagon, and I'm not really qualified to second guess it, but as an American, that's a legitimate question. The one factor that hasn't been reported or discussed is China. China gets 80% of Iran's oil. Did you know that, Pierce? Yeah, 80%. China's lifeline is Putin and Iran. For 1.5 billion people to have energy, Trump has to take that into account. That is an enormous factor here. You have not heard China say much about Iran. They certainly haven't stuck up for the mullahs. They have not. So I suspect in addition to the negotiations that are taking place between the United States and Iran, and nobody knows who's in charge in Iran, other negotiations very secretly are being done between Washington and Beijing. That would have to happen because it's so volatile, China is not going to allow itself to be starved of energy.

Piers Morgan (62:26)

Okay, but explain to me how any of this is consistent with Donald Trump, the presidential candidate in 2024, saying that he would not take America into any more senseless Middle Eastern wars because they were way too expensive, both on economy and human life, that he would focus on America first, sorting out the problems in America. He'd make it secure at the border, which he's done to his credit, and that he would bring the cost of living down and he would reduce inflation and get rid of it. How does any of what he's done with Iran tick any of those boxes? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like he's done the complete opposite to what he campaigned on.

Bill O'Reilly (63:13)

Well, you're asking a very legitimate question. But things change. So the threat level in Iran changed. And the information, and Graham spelled this out again in the podcast I did with him, was that, yes, the United states destroyed about 75% of the Iranian nuclear capacity last June, but they were weeks away from enriching uranium now so that they could make a nuclear weapon, a low level one if they wanted, and hand it off. Trump got that intel. Then he got intel from Assad, from Israel, that all the Mullies are going to be in one place at one time. This is after six weeks of negotiation where the Iranians basically said to the Americans, hey, Blank, you gave us the middle finger. We're going to do what we want. We don't care what you say. Now, I talked to Donald Trump myself, one on one private conversation on the phone one week before the US Military action was launched. And that entire conversation was about making a deal. Trump did not want to do this. He didn't want to use military action. And we discussed various ways that a deal might happen. My emphasis was on Beijing, okay, get them in a position where we'll help them in a way that they need China in return for they pressure the mullahs to give up their nuclear construction. That was my idea. Okay. But then in the final meeting in Geneva with Witkoff and the Iranian representatives, okay, Iran said, look, there's no sense in talking any further. We're not going to stop. Now. When you say that to President Trump, what do you think's going to happen? He's not remembering what his campaign slogan was. He's saying, these guys are serious, they're going to build a nuke and I believe they'll use it. And I'm not taking the chance. And I got to when the call came in, all of them are going to be in the same place. We're going to go knock them out. I would have done the same thing.

Piers Morgan (65:47)

How about you? Well, I think again, there's an inconsistency, I would argue between the rhetoric that followed the 12 day war last summer where everyone was assured we've neutralized the nuclear threat from Iran and within nine, 10 months, apparently it's all been rejuvenated. I find that, I find that. Well, I just think some part of that argument doesn't ring true. Either it wasn't true when they first said it or it wasn't true in February. They can't both.

Bill O'Reilly (66:21)

If you can show me a quote where they said all of Iranians nuclear weapon capacity has been destroyed, I will see the point. I can't find that quote.

Piers Morgan (66:33)

Not all, but they made it clear. See, let me hypothesize it.

Bill O'Reilly (66:38)

Clear. Badly, badly harmed Iran's ability to do it.

Piers Morgan (66:44)

That's true.

Bill O'Reilly (66:46)

There were other labs working on the same thing that were not destroyed.

Piers Morgan (66:53)

Let me offer you a different hypothesis, which I'm not saying necessarily, I subscribe to this, but just hear me out, which is that the 12 Day War, a bit like the strike on Venezuela to get rid of Maduro, the 12 Day War was incredibly precise, incredibly successful, almost zero damage to any American personnel or interests. Fantastically successful and notable for the very muted response from the Iranians. And I think you then move to what happened in Venezuela. Again, very precise military strike, no loss of life to American service people. The capture of the Venezuelan president taken to custody in New York, a brilliant success. Again, I think Trump was riding high off the back of that and I think the Israelis were pushing hard. Yes, we've got the Ayatollah here with all these people. If we decapitate the regime, it'll be exactly like Venezuela. You'll neutralize this problem. And I think Trump decided to go for it. And I think as he looks at it now, he realized this is a very, very different situation to Venezuela. I think they've miscalculated just how skillfully and I use that purely as a description of, I think how their strategy has been, how skillfully the Iranians have controlled the straight to Four Moose, and how they have attacked their Gulf neighbors to get them in line as well and make tourists fearful and make expats want to leave. How they've attacked refineries there in response to their own refineries being attacked. And that's been incredibly destabilizing to the Gulf states. I think you put it all together, and I think Donald Trump has. I've been in a long time like you, I think he's reached a point with this where it's gone way bigger than he calculated, way longer than he thought it would go, and that he has underestimated Iran's ability to not fight back militarily, but to fight back economically, and that that is going to be politically toxic for him. And he now needs an off ramp. And the question then becomes, what is the off ramp? Which looks like victory. And I think it's a tricky one, I really do, to claim a victory if the Iranian regime remains in place and if you see no uprising from the Iranian people and if America does not get a commitment to either hand over the enriched uranium or goes in and gets it, which would be boots on the ground, which would be disastrous. I don't see any easy off ramp here, do you?

Bill O'Reilly (69:31)

Well, no, but you're spouting a theory. Yeah, it may be right, but it doesn't jive with what my information flow is, because as I said, Trump didn't want this military action. It wasn't his arrogance that, oh, I kicked Venezuela's butt, so now I can do the same thing to Iran. I mean, he would have told me, if you wanted it, that's what we would have discussed, how to go about it militarily. That's not what we discussed. It was how to get a deal. So going forward, here's how I see it. Iran's going to have to make a deal because Trump's not going to stop. And if he has to lose the midterms, they'll lose the midterms. Remember, he didn't have to run again, okay? He's not stopping. He's not going to say, oh, we lost, ever. That's number one. So the deal is going to look like Iran will allow weapons inspectors in, probably from the UN to examine what's going on with the nukes. They'll stop enriching and they will destroy their ballistic missile capacity, which is already almost destroyed. So we're only talking about a few missiles, not many. Okay. In return, there'll be more favorable economic treatment for Iran on a rebuild basis. Trump knows he's not going to get regime change. So that's, you know, he can save a rattle on it, but that's not going to happen unless the Persian people rise up. And, you know, with these people gunning you down in the street, you know, you're a student of history a little bit, Pierce, in 1945, when the Russians were coming in from the east and the Allies coming in from the west to Berlin, the German people didn't rise up against Hitler. Nobody rose up against Hitler in Germany because the SS would shoot you down in the street. It's the same thing going on in Iran. So likely, and I think within a space of a couple of weeks, this thing will cease and some kind of an arrangement will be made so the Mullis can tell their people they didn't lose and Trump can tell his people they won, we won, America won. That's what's likely to happen.

Piers Morgan (72:04)

Bill O'Reilly, I will invite you back in two weeks time and we shall see.

Bill O'Reilly (72:09)

If I'm not, if I'm not deported, I may be in Portugal.

Piers Morgan (72:14)

You know what? You'll be even nearer Timmy. Bill, get on a plane to London.

Jesse Ventura (72:17)

Yeah.

Piers Morgan (72:18)

Great to have you.

Bill O'Reilly (72:19)

We're coming, we're coming to England at the end of May and I'm going to, and you're going to do an interview with me telling you you're going to do or I'm coming to your house about this Muslim intrusion.

Piers Morgan (72:33)

Yeah.

Bill O'Reilly (72:34)

On London.

Piers Morgan (72:34)

Let's talk about it.

Bill O'Reilly (72:36)

Okay.

Jesse Ventura (72:37)

So you're in, right?

Piers Morgan (72:38)

I'm happy to talk about that.

Bill O'Reilly (72:40)

All right, excellent. We'll set it on up. Thanks for having me on.

Piers Morgan (72:44)

I'd love to see you on the set of Uncensored while you're here.

Bill O'Reilly (72:46)

Be great.

Piers Morgan (72:48)

Okay. Bill, great to have you. Thanks very much. Well, Jesse Ventura is a former US Navy seal, a former professional wrestler, a former actor and a former governor of Minnesota. We've had many memorable interviews over the years, I'm pleased to say he joins me again now. Jesse, how are you?

Jesse Ventura (73:06)

I'm doing good, Piers. It's been a long time for you. And I tried to retire, but. Well, I tried to retire, but unfortunately they sent the Gestapo to my high school and they hit it with chemical weapons, which are a war crime. And that brought me back out of retirement to stand up against the war criminal in the White House.

Piers Morgan (73:28)

Wow. Well, that sounds suitably dramatic.

Jesse Ventura (73:33)

Well, that's the way it happened. I mean, I was retired. I hadn't Watched the news since the last election. My son said, you're way better, dad. You're not tense anymore. Keep it up. And then, lo and behold, these ICE characters, I call them the Gestapo, and I think I can do that. And let me get something straight right now, Piers, so people know where I'm coming from. My uncle Emil fought in World War I. My parents both fought in World War II. My father had six Bronze Battle Stars in Europe. My mother was a nurse in North Africa, which predated Normandy, fighting Rommel, the Desert Fox, the greatest German general. Both my parents were World War II veterans. My brother and I are both Vietnam veterans and member of the Navy UDT seal. We both did two tours to Southeast Asia. So everyone in my family is a war veteran. I wanted to get that out right now, so it'll help with the things that I'm going to say to you in the moments to come.

Piers Morgan (74:39)

So ICE agents came to your school, you said.

Jesse Ventura (74:44)

What's that?

Piers Morgan (74:45)

You said the ICE agents came to your school?

Jesse Ventura (74:49)

Yeah, the ICE agents came to the school where I went to high school, chasing some guy down, just like the Gestapo. And I heard people were offended calling them that.

Piers Morgan (75:00)

Really?

Jesse Ventura (75:01)

I can tell you right now, if my parents would have been alive and they would have seen what happened in Minneapolis, they would have called it the Gestapo, too. So they come to my school. They use tear gas and pepper spray at the school. Now, here's a question I have, Piers. My uncle Emo fought in World War I and he was gassed. He came home, but his life was ruined. He could never do anything. What did they do? They outlawed it. Gasp. Using chemical weapons became a war crime. Why is it that you can't use them on your enemy, but you're allowed to use them on your own people? That has always been. Where is the media on this, you know, using chemical weapons against our own people, which is, in essence, a war crime.

Piers Morgan (75:50)

Well, I think I wouldn't describe the gas used by ICE agents as chemical weapons. I mean, that. That infers tear gas.

Jesse Ventura (75:59)

They're spraying people from six inches away right in their face. I can't use that in war. I wasn't allowed to carry tear gas or any type of chemical weapon in war. It's banned from war. It's considered a war crime. You can't use it against your enemy, but you can use it against your own people. Doesn't something ring wrong there for you, Piers?

Piers Morgan (76:22)

Well, a lot rang wrong about what was going on in Minnesota, and I'm very glad that it has been Resolved, at least for now.

Jesse Ventura (76:31)

And I think it hasn't been resolved. Well, no, not completely, but nothing's been resolved.

Piers Morgan (76:36)

No.

Jesse Ventura (76:36)

I understand we have two dead people here. Two people were killed by the Gestapo here.

Piers Morgan (76:43)

Yeah, I understand. And those investigations are ongoing. But at least the ICE activity that was going on in the way it was being conducted has been removed from Minnesota, which is a good thing. And I thought what happened was appalling, and I said so at the time. Let me ask you about Iran and your view of this war.

Jesse Ventura (77:04)

Well, here's how I feel about it. There's a simple thing as a leader, and you know, this having been in the military, Trump wouldn't know it because he's a draft dodging coward. But anyway, it's a war is justified if you're willing to send your kids. Because how can you send somebody else's kids to a war if you won't send your own? So I'm calling right now for Barron Trump. Donald Trump's on. You know, after all, he's had three wives, he's had kids by each wife, and nobody's ever served in the military. To my knowledge, a Trump in the last hundred years has never done military service. Well, Barron, you can change that. Enlist in the United States military right now. Do something your father didn't have the courage to do. Do something your father didn't have the patriotism to do. I want to see a Trump in the military. Everybody in my family has served, so I think I can say that with all due confidence. Come on. Trumps don't just reap the benefits of this free world. Somebody put on the uniform, and that's you, Barron. And I heard the excuse that Barron might be too tall. Uh, David Robinson served on active duty. He was 7ft tall before he ever went to the San Antonio spurs basketball team. David Robinson went to the United States Navy Military Academy. He's one of my officers. Not directly, but he would have been.

Piers Morgan (78:37)

Okay, look, it's one argument that a Trump should serve. That's perfectly reasonable argument to make a lot of people feel that way, but it doesn't change what's going on in Iran. What is your view of this war? Do you think it's a legitimate war? Many people think that the Iranian regime has been the instrument of terror through the Middle east for 40 years.

Jesse Ventura (78:58)

Of course they have been. Of course they have been peers. But wait a minute. He then Trump then calls you guys NATO cowards. Wait a minute. NATO is set up to protect. That means that if a NATO country is Attacked, they will all join together to repel it. It doesn't go in reverse. It doesn't mean if one of the NATO countries starts a war that all the others have to join in. That ain't part of the deal. The deal is protection, not aggression. And we started this war. And then he's calling you guys a bunch of cowards because you won't come in and help him. Well, why didn't he talk to you beforehand? And second of all, that isn't what the mission is. The mission is to protect the countries if they're attacked, not to go on the offense and do the attacking.

Piers Morgan (79:55)

Okay, but do you think America was justified in joining Israel in the attack on Iran?

Jesse Ventura (80:01)

No. No.

Bill O'Reilly (80:03)

Why not?

Jesse Ventura (80:04)

Absolutely not. Because we started the war. I'm not for starting any war. We fired the first shot, plain and simple. You want to put it in Rambo? We drew first blood.

Piers Morgan (80:22)

Many would argue of those who support the war that Iran had drawn a lot of blood through this regime for a very long time. They had supported and. Well, hang on, hang on, Jesse. They had armed groups like Hamas and the Houthis and Hezbollah. For decades, they had wreaked utter havoc, drawing enormous amounts of blood. And actually, the reason America and Israel had to deal with them now was that they were imminently going to get a nuclear weapon and may well use it. What do you say to that?

Jesse Ventura (80:56)

Well, here's what I say. Let's get the real history in. You know, I listen to people like Congressman Lawler in New York. They all love to go back to 1979, the day the Ayatollahs took over. They conveniently don't go back to when I was alive. I'm a little older than them. Let's go back to 1953, shall we? When Iran had a democratic elected president, the United States didn't like him. We pulled a coup d'. Etat. And what did we do? We stuck the authoritarian dictator, the Shah, in power. That's when the I Hate America started, was way back in the 50s when we interfered in their democratic elections. But how convenient we are that we forget that. Then in 1979, what took place? The ayatollahs took over, who were probably worse than the Shah. But let's remember, the hatred of America was started by America. It was not started by the Iranians. We interfered in their government way back in the 50s and overturned their democratic elected president. And then the dictatorship started with the Shah and now went to the ayatollahs. And here we are today. But I'D like for Congressman Lawlor to at least try to go back in history from before he was born to see what could have occurred and that the United States was the person that caused the hatred between the two countries.

Piers Morgan (82:27)

Jesse, I know you're very scathing of Trump. Now. There was a time when you were on more friendly terms. Here's a clip from you both at WrestleMania 20.

Bill O'Reilly (82:38)

You know what?

Jesse Ventura (82:40)

I think that we may need a wrestler in the White House in 28 2008.

Piers Morgan (82:48)

When you look at that, Jesse, I mean, that was 12, 13 years ago. I think Trump has also been made a WWE hall of Famer, which I know has angered you.

Jesse Ventura (83:00)

Yup.

Piers Morgan (83:01)

How do you feel now looking back at that clip?

Jesse Ventura (83:05)

I feel that simply I was doing my job. I was doing what I was asked to do at the wwe. Trump being a Hall of Famer is a tragedy. This guy has never been in the ring. I got a good friend. Ken Patera, Olympian, first man to over press overhead. Press 500 pounds, 25 years in the wrestling business. Kenny Patera is not in the hall of Fame. Donald Trump does not belong in the Wrestling hall of Fame. He never earned it. You know what I had to do to get in the pro Wrestling hall of Fame? At one point in my career, I wrestled 63 consecutive nights in a row. That's how you get in the hall of Fame. When I was referring to putting a wrestler in the White House, I was talking about me, not him.

Piers Morgan (83:56)

Really? That was a bit ambiguous.

Jesse Ventura (83:58)

Absolutely. I was the former governor of Minnesota. I'm the only real former wrestler. I don't include him. He's only in the hall of Fame because he stopped an investigation against Vince McMahon. A sexual stuff.

Piers Morgan (84:16)

Do you intend to run again for governor and therefore maybe president?

Jesse Ventura (84:21)

I don't. I don't know. I don't necessarily intend to run again, but I'm working on something that could send me straight to Washington and go face to face with this guy. Really?

Piers Morgan (84:32)

Well, you would run for my friends

Jesse Ventura (84:33)

may be in the works.

Piers Morgan (84:35)

I mean, he can't run for president again. So what would that involve?

Jesse Ventura (84:40)

Well, you'll have to find out. Wait and see. I'm not going to spill it here.

Piers Morgan (84:45)

You're not going to crash.

Jesse Ventura (84:46)

But I'll put it to you this way. Wait, wait, wait, Piers. I'll put it to you this way. We withstood the onslaught of the Gestapo in Minnesota. Well, I was taught in war to do this. You ensure that your backyard is secure. That's the first thing you do. Well, Minnesota's now secure. We've repelled the onslaught from Trump. Now it's time for us to go on the offense. So maybe it's time to send the Navy SEAL to Washington. Maybe it's time for a showdown between the Vietnam veteran and the draft dodger.

Piers Morgan (85:24)

Do you actually mean a physical confrontation?

Jesse Ventura (85:29)

No, but if he wants it, he's in the hall of Fame. Let's both get in the ring.

Piers Morgan (85:34)

I mean, there is a USC after all.

Jesse Ventura (85:35)

He's in the hall of Fame. He's in the hall of Fame, isn't he?

Bill O'Reilly (85:39)

Right.

Piers Morgan (85:39)

I mean, there is a.

Jesse Ventura (85:40)

Even though he's never ever had a match.

Piers Morgan (85:42)

Right. Well, there is a UFC whole event going on imminently at the White House. Maybe they could extend it and have you against Trump.

Jesse Ventura (85:54)

Do you think he'd have the guts to do that? Are you kidding me? Well, when he got shot, this guy.

Piers Morgan (86:00)

When he got shot.

Jesse Ventura (86:01)

Wait a minute, Jesse, to be fair to Chuck. Wait a minute, Pierce, to be fair to Chip, when he got shot, I'm gonna tell you.

Piers Morgan (86:06)

When he got shot, he got back up. Fight, fight, fight, fight.

Jesse Ventura (86:12)

Oh, yeah, right, right, right. You ever hear of a blade job anyway?

Piers Morgan (86:17)

A blade. What, you think he was fake anyway?

Jesse Ventura (86:21)

I don't know. Where's his scar?

Piers Morgan (86:23)

Today somebody died literally sitting behind him.

Jesse Ventura (86:29)

I don't know. You know. Come on, Piers. You're gonna tell me this guy's a big hero now?

Piers Morgan (86:35)

I thought that day he wasn't gonna tell me. That day he was.

Jesse Ventura (86:39)

Really?

Piers Morgan (86:39)

Yeah.

Jesse Ventura (86:40)

Really?

Piers Morgan (86:41)

Yeah, he was.

Jesse Ventura (86:42)

Yeah. Well, he. Then he accomplished what he wanted out of you guys.

Piers Morgan (86:46)

No, I think you can be heroic on one day and you can be less heroic on others, but if you ask me, was he heroic?

Jesse Ventura (86:52)

Sure.

Piers Morgan (86:53)

When he got shot? Yeah. And I think those who try to pretend he wasn't actually shot or anything, he's.

Jesse Ventura (86:57)

You're right. You know what I feel bad about was that if he'd have joined us in Vietnam, we might have won, huh? No, he could have put us. Why did he run and hide when he could have joined us and led us to victory?

Piers Morgan (87:11)

I don't think anything would have changed the fortunes of the United States in that war.

Jesse Ventura (87:16)

Yeah, probably not considered. He called us all suckers, didn't he?

Piers Morgan (87:22)

What would you say to Trump if you had a chance to speak to him?

Jesse Ventura (87:27)

I'd prefer not to speak with him. I don't have. Really. What would I say to him?

Piers Morgan (87:34)

I don't know.

Jesse Ventura (87:36)

You know, he's. You know, to me, he has no courage. He never has. I'll tell you what he is, Piers. Everybody knows these people. You're with a group of guys and there's always one guy who will start the fight and then hold your coat. That's Donald Trump. He'll start the fight, but he'll hold your coat and then the next day he'll tell everybody how tough he was.

Piers Morgan (88:05)

Jesse Ventura, it's great to see you've lost none of your fighting spirit in the many years since I last interviewed you. Thank you very much for coming on on, Piers.

Jesse Ventura (88:13)

I'll never lose my fighting spirit. You take care, man. And if you dare to have me on again, we'll see.

Piers Morgan (88:20)

You will always be welco, always be welcome, Jesse. Don't you worry about that. The mere fact the show is called uncensored.

Jesse Ventura (88:27)

And by the way, for you, by the way, say say hi to Mick and Keith for me.

Piers Morgan (88:32)

I will, I will. I'll text him right now.

Jesse Ventura (88:37)

Okay.

Piers Morgan (88:37)

Very good. Thanks a lot, Jesse.

Jesse Ventura (88:39)

Take care, you. You too, Piers. Bye.

Piers Morgan (88:42)

Bye. Piers Morgan unsensed is proudly independent. The only boss around here here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like

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