← Piers Morgan Uncensored
Piers Morgan Uncensored
"Massive GRIFTER!" Piers Morgan Grills Russell Brand On Allegations, Prison, 'Truth' & Religion
01:54:01
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- [00:01]
Piers Morgan
Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line.
- [00:09]
Russell Brand
Whether it's the funds fueling AI or
- [00:12]
Piers Morgan
crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com let's come to this. Save your best lines.
- [00:30]
Russell Brand
Look, I know we're both English, but do you mind if I pray before. Oh, God, help us have her.
- [00:37]
Piers Morgan
I don't know where the truth lies. You're gonna basically go through a process which could end up with you going to prison for a long period of time.
- [00:46]
Russell Brand
I did sleep with a 16 year old when I was 30 here in New York.
- [00:50]
Piers Morgan
It would have been a crime.
- [00:52]
Russell Brand
We are going to find out the truth. And if the truth is I am going to prison, my will be. Do not be afraid of that truth.
- [01:00]
Piers Morgan
This Bible actually, I think was this one you took into court. What were the relevant passages for you?
- [01:04]
Russell Brand
All right, thank you for asking.
- [01:09]
Piers Morgan
This is the first interview you've done with any Brit since delegations. You are slightly hypersensitive to anyone challenging you because most of the media you do. You don't really get challenged.
- [01:21]
Russell Brand
Excuse me. Amidst the rape allegations, the Shagger of the Year titles do not seem quite as valuable. Some of the shots.
- [01:31]
Piers Morgan
You only became a Christian seven months after the allegations were made public. You worked out that this could give you some kind of COVID You know, there are people who think you're basically just a massive grifter.
- [01:41]
Russell Brand
No, that's what they say about you. Actually, here's.
- [01:44]
Piers Morgan
Oh, good.
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Russell Brand
Calm down and slow down.
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Piers Morgan
No, it's a serious question.
- [01:47]
Russell Brand
I want you to calm down and slow down.
- [01:49]
Piers Morgan
Very calm. This sense that you were somehow singled out, targeted deliberately, a lot of people think that's honesty, bullshit.
- [01:56]
Russell Brand
I can't actually find the verse that I had that day.
- [01:59]
Piers Morgan
You were an atheist.
- [02:00]
Russell Brand
Hello. What are you going to be next?
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Piers Morgan
Muslim?
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Russell Brand
A Jew?
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Piers Morgan
A Scientologist? What? Some people think Hitler.
- [02:06]
Russell Brand
What do you think about Hitler?
- [02:09]
Piers Morgan
Russell Brand means many things to many people. He's the boisterous comic with a silver tongue and a savage wit. He's the eccentric British movie star with big words and even bigger hair. To some, he's a fearless truth seeker. To others, an oddball conspiracist. But whether he's reviled or revered and is usually one or the other, almost everybody finds him fascinating. And in recent years, his mutual embrace of Maga in America has kept people guessing. So too, has the very public conversion to Christianity which forms the subject of his new book. And surrounding it all, of course, are the very grave allegations that he's now fighting. All of which will make for, I'm sure, a very interesting uncensored interview. Russell Brand joins me now. Russell, good to see you.
- [02:53]
Russell Brand
It's good to see you, too.
- [02:54]
Piers Morgan
It's sort of weird to see you in this context because I first interviewed you in 2006, 20 years ago. We sat and did an uproarious interview for gq. I'll come to that in a moment. We did another big one for ITV for My Life Story show about your whole extraordinary life. We did a big one at CNN here in New York. We when your divorce from Katy Perry was just coming through. So I feel like I've been around your world, your orbit, and I've seen you at lots of events and things along the way as well. But I don't really know you. Like, I know a bit about you and I know you in a media context. I don't really know you. I wouldn't consider myself to be your friend or somebody that has an intimate knowledge of what you're really like. And one of the more interesting things about you, I would say, is that I don't know where the truth lies about these allegations. And I don't want to try and find out whether I'm, you know, my instincts are one way or another, we can't talk about what's coming in October, the case, for legal reasons. It wouldn't feel right to me anyway to talk about it because you've got to go through the due process. But as we sit here, you're innocent until proven guilty. I believe fundamentally in that principle you're entitled to due process and to those who will criticize, as I'm sure some will, the mere fact I'm giving you a platform and interviewing you, I say that this matters, the due process matters, the presumption of innocence until proven guilty matters. And so in the context of that, I'm very happy to, to talk to you, but given I've known you so long, my, my first question is just how are you feeling about the fact that in a few months time in a southeast London courtroom with 12 jurors sitting there, you're going to basically, over a period of about two months, go through a process which could end up with you going to prison for a long period of time if you're convicted. It's hard to imagine on a human level, a more tumultuous thing to happen to you, not even given what you've been through in your life. So how are you feeling about it?
- [05:14]
Russell Brand
Tumultuous is a perfect word because it is like a storm. And sometimes I feel like I'm comfortable in the eye of a storm where there can be calm and at least the capacity to observe. And at other times it feels all consuming and frightening and pressurizing. Like a storm also would be in almost every conceivable way. I was just thinking, as you did the introduction. I reckon you write your stuff yourself. Do you write the introduction?
- [05:51]
Piers Morgan
I have a writer, actually.
- [05:53]
Russell Brand
Well, when you sort of the sort of variation that was introduced, like he's revered or reviled. And I sometimes feel like I'm all those things, like a truth teller or silver tongue comment and wow, what. So when you. I think it's a really good place to begin. How are you feeling? And also the principle of presumed, the presumption of innocence. Because I think we are living in a hazy, fluxy time where people are very uncertain about truth in the broadest possible way. People are very uncertain about information in a way that feels like we're all navigating quicksand and a new territory and a new terrain. And what I'm most interested in and what feels resonant to me and I enjoy and appreciate at least your declaration of a kind of a lack of intimacy. And the reason for the lack of intimacy is I feel that in a way, peers. Because we're both English, we're around the same age, and we've both been in and around media. I sort of see in you this kind of. I don't take it because I'm going to play exactly the same thing to myself. This kind of cockroach power of like moving through these dreadful, dreadful worlds. And somehow here you still are online with your own show, riding the wave of how media is operating now. People don't get to do that if they're a nobody. People don't get to do that if they don't have, I would say certainly tenacity and strength. But when I was a kid, I used to watch that show like most people did. A lot of people, at least the word. And I remember you being on there. You were young man, I bet you was 30, I think it was even when you were still showbiz at Bazaar, the Sun there prior to being the Mirror editor. And I remember my mate at the time, we'd buy potheads and that, like saying, I like him. He was saying, when we're famous. Cause we weren't. And he still isn't. God love him, though. But why not? Cause that's another thing about when you move through many worlds, you see who are the people that make it? Who are the ones that get churned up? Who are the ones that get elevated? Who are the ones that get destroyed? Who are the ones that get investigated? Who are the ones that don't? Who are the ones where the presumption of innocence is retained? Who are the ones where this presumption of innocence is stripped away? And my mate, he went, I like that Piers Morgan. And I liked you too. Like, there's a person on the TV on the Word, sat behind a panel, probably judging some audacious and absurd thing. Cause the Word was all about people exposing their genitals and sort of the late night vulgarity was also sort of a kind of TV masterpiece, wasn't it, really? Anyway, then I would read the sun every day. I would read the sun every day and read your Shoes Bears columns. I kind of really liked that. And then when I sort of saw how you had maneuvered through these worlds, becoming Mirror editor as a very young man, weren't you in your 30s? And like. And I know that Rupert Murdoch, that Mephistophelian figure, that timeless man about whom someone once told me. Cause I go, tell me something unique about Murdoch. Why is he the person? He is. And this person goes, he lives like he's never gonna die. And if some decision don't go his way, he's patient and he's cool. Oh, the merger's not worked out. It will work out. That's the power that a man can have to, in the case of Rupert Murdoch, one would say, influence significantly the trajectory of a nation, even in matters such as elections or wars. And so in a sense, Piers, of course, as like Russell Brand from Gray's Essex, some bloke who was a crackhead and a heroin addict who married Katy Perry, who's now really just a married dad of free. But also deeply fascinated with truth. I am fascinated with truth and I believe such a thing is possible. I don't believe in the post structuralism. I don't believe that. No. Well, everyone's got their own subjective truth. Because I believe in God now. So with something like this impending trial, which you've sort of, when we were chatting before, described as the elephant in the room. Yeah, it's like. It's sort of awesome. And I mean that literally. I mean, it induces a terrifying, glorious awe. Because, like you, I look at the news the whole time, right. And I'll look at a story like what's. What many people would refer to and you would refer to as a genocide in Gaza. And I think, wow, we consume so much information now. I find it hard even to connect with the human beings. Like, I can't take it when I see and this individual father has lost this individual child when it gets that close, you know, I can't really even take it and say a story like this one, because I have a strong instinct and a man. I'd love to have the conversation I could have with you about how media operates, how media selects, how media deselects, how media targets. But media is not neutral, particularly traditional, conventional media. We're doing this interview in an Associated Press studio. The Associated Press is a sort of a bastion of neutrality with how it's regarded. But if you investigate the inception and funding of the Associated Press, you will discover that it's like all media. It has a telos, an intention, a function. It's there for a reason. And you and me, we've lived in that world. We know things a lot of people don't know. You know, stories that if they were printed, would blow some of the world's biggest stars out of the water forever. We know that we live in that world and more and beyond celebrity gossip, even though, gosh, to this day people are fascinated and allured by it. Important stuff, man, about corruption and the world's most powerful people. We know it. And it's hard to communicate it. Sometimes it's difficult to corroborate it. Sometimes it's imprudent to say it because of personal reasons. You've got to survive in this world. You have survived in this world. Where I am now is. I feel like I've been on trial my whole life anyway. The whole thing's been a trial. I'm just some kid from graves. I've been a heroin addict. I'm the only child of a single mother. The whole thing's a trial. I go to jail. The thing is, I believe in God. I've always believed in God. It is different to believe in Jesus. It is different. And I'm really aware that some people just think it's.
- [11:53]
Piers Morgan
Have you thought. Have you thought about the reality of losing your liberty?
- [11:59]
Russell Brand
Yes.
- [12:00]
Piers Morgan
Of night one in a cell. And that's going to be your life for a few years. In other words, the worst case scenario, which everybody who faces a criminal trial has to contemplate.
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Russell Brand
And all of us, of course, all the time, of course, every day, have
- [12:13]
Piers Morgan
you thought about that moment. If that clanking door shuts and you lose your liberty, how you would deal with that?
- [12:20]
Russell Brand
I will be with God wherever I am. And of course I would prefer to be with God, with my wife and my kids. But if. See, this is. This is what I have to do. I'm not saying that that's not a difficult image, you know, and a difficult thing to contemplate. Of course it is. But in fact, actually what I was trying to get to, but I recognize, you know, I pirouette some when I start talking was the hardest thing is knowing that in spite of all the, the. The potential reasons that I'm in this situation, that there are people in this world that feel so aggrieved about their contact with me that they are willing to go through this process. That is a very difficult thing to countenance and a real challenge. And something that in whatever ways are necessary, must be addressed. And it is comforting to think that there could be justice, but there could be. We are going to find out the truth and we're gonna deal with the truth. Because actually, I am not afraid of the truth. And if the truth is I am going to prison, then I'm. I. My job will be. Do not be afraid of that truth. That is what you are going to do.
- [13:26]
Piers Morgan
When I interviewed you for gq, I went and found it yesterday.
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Russell Brand
Oh, yeah. Oh, my word.
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Piers Morgan
Literally 20 years ago. It was March 2006. We met at a trendy bistro near Tottenham Court Road in London. That was the first time I'd ever interviewed you. You were 31 at the time.
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Russell Brand
Wow.
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Piers Morgan
And I was quite gushing. I said I assumed I'd find Brand irritating, pointless and easy target. But I was wrong. He was charming, articulate, outrageous, and very, very funny. We roamed through two hours, through his extraordinary life. A non stop orgy of comedy, drugs, bulimia, hookers, 400 bed romps and celebrity bed notches. And then for some reason, I asked you halfway through, are you a more successful sexual predator now that you don't drink? And you replied, yes, but I resent the word predator. I like to think of myself as a conduit of natural forces. After all, the most natural thing in the world for people to do is fuck, isn't it? People want to do it. So all you have to do is remove all the reasons why women don't actually go through with it, like pride and reputation. You just have to unpick the condition. Stopping women going straight to bed with you.
- [14:32]
Russell Brand
That sounds like charm, seduction, Game. Do you remember in the. The era immediately prior to this one? And one would have to accept that me too, redressed in 2015 when that happened. A dreadful imbalance in male female power dynamics. That is good that there's an ongoing conversation and that some of the corruption and exploitation in that is being exposed and explored. And what that was there at 31, man, that was. I forget because being famous has been. For me, it sounds like you enjoy it more than I do, but for me it's been like there's a double
- [15:05]
Piers Morgan
edged sword for everyone.
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Russell Brand
I don't look like. I mean there's bits that I really liked and what that I can hear in that lovely piece of writing is that I was into it. And I forget that now, like even talking to you about football can be hard because I really love West Ham. That's my. Like when there was a little boy, when there was a teenager and then sudden, suddenly I'm in the. With Cameron Brady and I'm with the Sullivan at et al, you know, and. But now because like I have a different view of the culture now, Piers, and I'm afraid, like I regard it as evil.
- [15:36]
Piers Morgan
I think fame can be one of the most insidious drugs of all.
- [15:40]
Russell Brand
Certainly it is. And.
- [15:41]
Piers Morgan
But what is it the craving that people have for it and then actually the cold, hard reality of how it warps a lot of people's values, a lot of the way that they behave. Yes, all those things. I see it all the time.
- [15:55]
Russell Brand
Yes. What does it do to. I mean, and also it's like any
- [15:58]
Piers Morgan
drug, I think it's like any drug. It's like cocaine. It's like all these things. It is a drug that people crave it and they want more and more of it. And then there's usually at some stage they're incredibly strong, mentally strong. There's normally a tipping point where the reality of big fame hits hard and the show business is littered with the professional carcasses of people that then couldn't deal with the downside of it.
- [16:24]
Russell Brand
Maybe if we replace the word drug with stimulant, it becomes clearer to understand that you are stimulated by your own fame, by your own reputation. Now even a person that's not famous, and obviously most people aren't, except for Warhol's perspicacious and proverbial 15 minutes, which of course has happened now all of us have the idea that there's an object of ourselves that people are commenting on. A facade, a mask. Obviously the word hypocrite comes from mask wearer now you have an identity in public. I have an identity in public. And what I can hear there, man, and it warms me is I was being 100% honest and I'm being 100% honest now. I'm not afraid of the truth. So if justice is real, if telling the truth is how a person's meant to operate, I was telling the truth then. And I can feel that. I mean, 31, you know, that sounds like a 19 year old really. But I was stunted in many ways. Like a lot of crackheads and smack heads. You kind of formaldehyde yourself in addiction somewhat. And that's like someone that's. I remember the rush of first becoming famous, of the glory of it. Not only the superficial glory of like going from being poor to not being poor and going to like, oh, it's embarrassing and difficult to trap women to, oh my God, look at this like. But also the sense that a world that had been saying, no, no, no, you can't, no, you can't, suddenly was saying, yes, like, yes, you can have a TV show, yes, you can be on the radio, yes, you can have a book. Yes, you can, yes. Like, it was sort of beautiful. There was something about it was amazing. I mean, creatively, I mean, like that to be able to do, you know, to have an interview with you and to opine and for someone to care. When you've felt very small all your life, like I think a lot of people probably do because I think this world makes you feel small indeed, makes you feel irrelevant. Just like, if I'm not famous, if I'm not in port, if I'm not sleeping around or driving this car, look at. I'm sort of really curious about, like, say that the thing with you and the lad, HS Tiki Toky and Andrew Tate, these sort of new. The new stars that are post the era that you and I are from. I sometimes I really highly regard their boldness in both, even in both of the instances just cited. They're bold men, I like that. But they are still advocating for a set of values that clearly I advocated for in a somewhat more camp way even then that if you aren't sleeping around with a bunch of women, you ain't worth much. And oh, I really, if I can get one thing across you today, I want it to be that being in Christ and like being in God, it gives me the strength to recognize, oh yeah, you might have to go to jail, but people go to jail. That's the thing that happens to people in the world. And people go to jail that shouldn't have gone to jail.
- [19:04]
Piers Morgan
What I find most sort of interesting, when I read that GQ thing, it was like all the things I said, it was highly entertaining, made me laugh out loud. It did again when I read it the other day. But obviously you read it with a slightly different context given what's happened to you. You're very like, honest, open, brazen, some might say. You admitted you slept with thousands of women, sometimes two at a time, three at a time. You were very like, this is all a bit of a laugh. And you were taking a lot of drugs through the late 90s, early 2000s. And my question for you is that obviously you're facing these serious charges. Obviously you've been emphatic and consistently emphatic in your denials that you've done anything criminal and that anything was non consensual, which will be the key determinant of your, of your liberty. Actually, whether a jury agrees that this was all consensual. You know, putting aside the morality aspect, and we'll come to that, which is an interesting different discussion, but it's not about crime, morality. It's a court of public opinion, perhaps, but it's a different thing. But my question, I think looking back on it and the lifestyle that you've talked about very openly now, looking back on that and saying, look, I was out of control, taking all these drugs, sleeping with all these women, whatever, is, how can you be sure that your own memory is good, is sound, is reliable, is truthful? Most people who've slept with thousands of women and taken barrel loads of drugs and led this incredibly hedonistic lifestyle, I would think if I interviewed them and asked them to name even what year it was, would struggle to remember. Can you be certain, if you're honest, that your memory is completely sound, accurate? Do you remember half this stuff?
- [20:57]
Russell Brand
Well, yes, I can be honest.
- [20:58]
Piers Morgan
It's a relevant question, isn't it?
- [20:59]
Russell Brand
Of course it is. Yes, I can be honest and I am honest. And I think what's an important distinction is that I was a drug addict prior to becoming famous. So that was a very different rhythm and time. And I think the question was, has it made you a more successful predator? And even then I objected to the idea of predation as persecutory. But predation is simply an amplification of looking for something with intention. And the reason I wasn't famous when I was still using drugs is because when I was a drug addict, I was an unviable economic proposition for potential Media partners. The reason that I was, I'm able to remember is something that I think is sort of quite essential is that I'm telling the truth in that GQ article amidst the sort of flamboyance and the evident hedonic is a person that was looking for a lot of attention and approval and love and connection. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't clumsiness and that there wasn't selfishness and objectification and lots of things though, to your point about there being a moral distinction, flat out wrong, wrong. But it's very different than a kind of a bawdy, overbearing, oppressive, controlling. Obviously I'm aware of the sort of claims that were made publicly in the documentary and I'm not sure to which degree what makes part of this so complicated is this all happened subsequent to a documentary and you know, as a journalist that journalists are not held to the same level of. There's what I want to say, integrity as an investigator of a legal matter that if you're a journalist talking to someone, like even you now you know how to navigate me in a certain position. If you were talking to someone or 100 someones or 500 people saying, look, you slept with Russell Brand, what happened? Or someone else has told me this, like, you know, like it's quite easy in a non legal and non judicial set in to induce, encourage and direct people to look at things in a particular way. And I think once that artifact has been made, I'm certainly not making claims about the criminal judicial system which I like you believe will provide a just outcome. A just outcome because ultimately I think whatever outcome occurs, as you say, I have to live with that and will do, obviously. But how does one remember. Yes, it is a long time ago, but firstly I was never drinking or taking drugs. I think people can flake because some of the films I played drug addicts and drug users and stuff, frankly, all of the films I made, there wasn't an enormous range at hand there in that film career there. But the reason I remember is because I remember because I was there, because I'm present and because the whole thing was very live and alive. I have a good memory and particularly obviously this is something I've had to
- [23:54]
Piers Morgan
reflect on and go, you were clean from 2002.
- [23:59]
Russell Brand
December 13, 2002 is the date I got sent.
- [24:02]
Piers Morgan
Some of the allegations go back to 99, so there must have been some crossover.
- [24:07]
Russell Brand
Well, without wanting to get into the specificity of the criminal matter, that's not generally the complexion and in the variation from that generality, there are other indicators that make it clear that my memory is reliable.
- [24:32]
Piers Morgan
The interesting thing, I was listening to your Megyn Kelly interview yesterday and it's blown up. We're both in New York and you know, it's blown up big in America today. A lot of people commenting about this. Let's play the clip for those who haven't heard it.
- [24:47]
Russell Brand
In Europe and in the United Kingdom where I'm from, the age of consent is 16 and I did sleep with a 16 year old when I was 30, but when I was 30 I was a very different person. I was a lot younger and I was an immature 30 year old. Consensual sex actually with a variety of people, when there is a strong power differential as there is when you're a famous man that has the ability to attract women that I had at that time, I think involves exploitation.
- [25:21]
Piers Morgan
What's been interesting is the way that's played out because you were right in what you said. It perfectly legal for you to have sex with a 16 year old girl in the UK. That's the law in America. In here in New York, for example, the age of consent is 17. So here it would have been a crime had you done that here. But I looked at every state in America because I thought it was an interesting. I saw some people commenting on this on social media. In about 30 states in America, the age of consent is, is 16 the same as the UK. I'm not even sure most Americans are aware of that. About another dozen states it's 17, another dozen or so it's 18. So there's no uniformity around America. But actually in the majority of states in America it's the same as the United Kingdom and therefore would not be a crime. Now again, people can take a moral view about it. I think you took a moral view about what you were doing then. Interestingly, the GQ interview happened when you were about that age. So it was going on then. And you use the word exploitative. Some people I've seen latch onto this and say, well, yeah, so he's, you know, he knows what he's doing is wrong, he knows that that was wrong. What is that line for you between exploiting as a 30 year old man, a 16 year old girl to the point where it becomes criminal potentially. What is that line for you?
- [26:48]
Russell Brand
I suppose it's consent, Piers.
- [26:50]
Piers Morgan
Right.
- [26:51]
Russell Brand
But the age of consent means in varying ways in different places, people have a understanding which probably isn't wholly accurate and reliable, that at a certain age A person is able to make a consensual decision to smoke a cigarette or vote or have sex or gamble. And these things vary according to jurisdiction and type of law. And in the place where I was both emotionally and spiritually and geographically, that was a legal thing to be doing, but not a morally sound thing to be doing.
- [27:28]
Piers Morgan
I've been struck by a lot of people on the conservative right in America are furious about your what they perceive to be a revelation. Wasn't a revelation to me because it's been talked about before and reported widely. Are you taken aback because you've moved here, you live in Florida, you've sort of embraced the MAGA movement to a degree. Not completely, but to a degree. You've written a book, how to Become a Christian in Seven Days, and you obviously are a different person now. There's no question of that. But are you taken aback by the reaction to what you said to Megyn Kelly? The fury from a lot of people on the conservative Christian right here often
- [28:12]
Russell Brand
I'm surprised all the time by stuff. But if people think it's wrong for I mean, I'm a Christian and I'm serious about it, I think that the only safe place to have sex is within marriage. So I agree with them. I agree with them. It's very difficult to ask at the beginning of our conversation, what are the challenges? Well, the challenges are a criminal judicial proceeding that's about law and consent PR situation, that's about people's feelings and sentiments that often cross over what the compromises and flaws are in a media, judicial and legal system that are plainly somewhat symbiotic and porous. There's a lot of different things happening, but I think the sort of, probably the simplest thing for me to focus on is should I have been doing that? And the answer is in retrospect, no. And it was a bit difficult is how we all, and I presume you're the same, feel like, well, whatever we did in the past, it's made us the person that we are today. And it's difficult to make that claim when you have to acknowledge that your actions have caused distress.
- [29:23]
Piers Morgan
The girl concerned in that story, we can discuss that because it was from the documentary and it's not part of your legal case. But she dated you for three months when she was 16. She described you referring to her as the child sending cars to collector from school, coaching on what to tell her parents made allegations about the sexual interactions you had, suggesting that, you know, you forced yourself in certain ways and so on. But she's not part of the legal case, and let's be clear about that. So there's no suggestion of criminality that's been leveled at you legally. But when you hear that account, what do you feel about the fact you were nearly twice her age, she was only 16, and you're picking her up from school, all that kind of thing? What do you feel about it?
- [30:11]
Russell Brand
Well, I think some of those details are pretty important and relevant. And how I feel about it is, as I've said, it's not nice to know that my actions have contributed to a person's suffering. And there should be some. There must be justice for that. The context in which those consensual encounters were happening was a sort of merry deluge of constant consensual activity that was very, very difficult to sometimes believe was happening. But, you know, one adjusts to those kind of conditions. And I would say peers on a personal level, yes, of course that's wrong. It's morally and spiritually wrong. It's legal. It's not a legal issue. But, you know, I don't want to try to minimize my actions in any way. I'm fully, fully culpable and absolutely happy. Not happy, but willing, of course, to deal with the consequences of my actions, not so willing to deal with consequences of actions that were not undertaken. I think that's a really important distinction to remind you and your audience of. And also, I suppose it seems like a deliberate removal of context not to continually cement that famous men that are single have always and typically behaved in this manner. One prays consensually, but one also suspects that there's a responsibility incumbent on people that have that power, whether that power is magnetism or whether that power is fame or whether that power is money or whatever that power is. It's not very easy to live a moral life in a culture that really, openly rewarded him. Were you still at the Sun? When I was being Shagger of the Year, this one, I was literally being given awards for it.
- [32:04]
Piers Morgan
I mean, so, of course it's really terrible. I'd actually left the sun, but the sun had an award called Shagger of the Year. And you won it a couple of times.
- [32:11]
Russell Brand
Three times.
- [32:12]
Piers Morgan
And it was.
- [32:12]
Russell Brand
Yeah, some of the glories faded.
- [32:14]
Piers Morgan
Right.
- [32:14]
Russell Brand
But it was amidst the rape allegations. The Shagger of the Year titles do not seem quite as valuable, I'll have to confess.
- [32:22]
Piers Morgan
Right.
- [32:22]
Russell Brand
But some of the shines come off.
- [32:24]
Piers Morgan
Well, the point I would make is, at the time everyone embraced it as good fun. You were seen as this Big shagger. And it was all very funny and entertaining. And nobody at the time was coming forward to say this was rape, sexual assault or anything else. And that was the context of that time. Now it obviously has a very different thing about it.
- [32:48]
Russell Brand
May I ask you something as a journalist? Also during me too, no one came forward. In fact, people came forward subsequent to a very deliberate documentary. And I feel that therefore it's difficult to remove the documentary from the chronology because it's sort of an important artifact in there. And I just will point that out and how difficult that makes even our conversation, the idea of a fair trial, an ongoing conversation, because I would say literally precisely the same behavior that was lauded, consensual, excessive, sexual, was reframed when it became convenient, appropriate and useful as non consensual. And now we have a method and means for dealing with a potentially difficult situation. Now, I wouldn't be so grandiose as to suggest that I am the situation. The situation is something that you do know a lot about. Media has changed from centralized media with a degree of centralized control, with rare anomalies. But let's take the COVID example as primary. If you were working in mainstream media during COVID you would have a pretty prescriptive approach. Indeed, you had that approach subsequent to Covid and amidst the pandemic period. Inquiries and questions were made in real time. In fact, I participated significantly in that. And it's a matter of public record that logically, AI, who worked for Moderna Pfizer and the British government, dealt with my content de amplifying, commenting on, and indeed the 77th Brigade, a psyops organization that primarily works in foreign territories with the British military during the COVID period, worked in the UK to, and this is a direct quote from I think the Times take down social media influencers. Now, there's an obvious, clear distinction between my reckless, lascivious conduct, about which I was open and honest, indeed your own words demonstrate that contemporaneously, and the obvious retrospective damage that's now done. It's difficult not to imagine that a documentary made in the midst of my own conflict, ongoing conflict with mainstream media, which, to be plain and frank, I regard as akin to evil. What I mean by that is I think it primarily exists not to give people true information, but to maximize people's vulnerability and the ability of powerful interests to exploit and control people.
- [35:03]
Piers Morgan
Can I just. On that point.
- [35:05]
Russell Brand
Yes, you can, but remember, be careful because of the legal situation, and I just want to land fully. But when a country and a country's media treat its own population as a kind of invaded and occupied territory. We should pay attention to that, that there was a military operation took place in this country, the United States, and in our beloved country, the United Kingdom. And there's a reason now, Piers, that people from farmers to the white working class to almost every aspect of British public life is alive and febrile with hostility, anger and confusion. The systems are breaking down. The systems are breaking down because of the technology. When Breitbart said brilliantly that politics is downstream of culture, perhaps we could have included that technology is very near the top of that stream, not the absolute source. But technology is changing everything.
- [35:52]
Piers Morgan
No, I agree with that. But let me ask you, why would the state, the establishment, why would they come after you particularly? I mean, you were doing a YouTube channel, you were doing your thing, you were having opinions, but a gazillion people were doing that. This sense that you were somehow singled out, targeted deliberately, that all these allegations are only because you, Russell Brand, was saying stuff about a COVID pandemic or whatever, a lot of people think that's honestly bullshit. I was like, come on, Russell, it's not that. And when they hear you be not, I wouldn't say you're dismissing it, but when you say no, no, but when you say absolutely not. But when people say also, I also
- [36:33]
Russell Brand
think that's quite reduction, if I may say, the way that you've framed it, because it is not just me at the, you know, I mean the idea that there is not a set of powers that manipulate the public conversation in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, the annihilation, or near annihilation, which you obviously survived, of Joe Rogan, the vilification of admittedly controversial figures like Tommy Robinson or Andrew Tate. And I'm not trying to set myself up in a rogues gallery here, but you know, Piers, you've operated in media for long enough and with enough depth and understanding to recognize that there are flavors and ways of handling obstreperous public figures. And I, I don't think of myself as particularly important. I know that I'm my, That's really my point.
- [37:24]
Piers Morgan
My point is, I just don't think that you were. I mean, I don't mean this to be remotely derogatory.
- [37:30]
Russell Brand
No, but I'm not actually, because you
- [37:31]
Piers Morgan
had a very popular channel and lots of people were watching it. It's not that. It's just I don't think that your influence in any of those debates would have warranted the establishment going right We've got to silence Russell Brand.
- [37:43]
Russell Brand
Yes, I think you're right. And I think it's that kind of reductivism that stops people having a clear view of how these systems work. And sometimes it's good to take recourse to some of the great American comedians. As Carlin says, where interests converge, no conspiracy is necessary. You know that deep state organizations are nebulous as well as nefarious, that they operate in ways that are difficult to understand, that there is a kind of overall intention, you know, that there was a point where mainstream media recognized we're going to have to pivot radically. We're not selling newspapers anymore. People are getting their news from different sources. People are having different conversations. People are starting to not trust en masse. Like, think about this as a good metric, if you'll indulge me. Say, like if 20, 30 years ago, when people would talk about someone like Alex Jones and let's not talk about me, let's just go with I've got a criminal trial and quite right, and by God's grace, the right outcome will prevail and whatever that is, then that's God's will. But on the matter of is there such a thing as controlling the media and is there collateral damage in when you're controlling a narrative? Did people want a particular style of reporting and particular information to be prevalent during the pandemic period? Yes. Were voices shut down? Was information controlled? Do people get de. Amplified? Do people get kicked off X the whole thing?
- [39:06]
Piers Morgan
But I would argue a public health.
- [39:07]
Russell Brand
Imagine 30 years.
- [39:08]
Piers Morgan
But I would argue a public health crisis of that magnitude globally.
- [39:12]
Russell Brand
You did argue it, Piers. And one of the main reasons that you remain contentious is because you advocated, you shamed people into getting vaccines. And we now know those vaccines have killed more people. You don't need to hector them than they say. I'm not hectoring them.
- [39:23]
Piers Morgan
No, because. No, I'll tell you why. Because unlike most people, you've repeatedly apologized. Yes. And I've said, you know what I believed. Now hang on, you've raised it. So let me address it because I've heard what you said about this and I don't blame you. I, I mistakenly, with hindsight, accepted the real time scientific advice, which often changed. Often changed. And in particular when they said if you have the vaccine for against Covid, you cannot transmit the virus, that's a lie. I thought that was an incredibly powerful thing and an untrue, which meant that, you know, some old person walking around might be infected by some reckless young Guy who doesn't want to have the simple jab and he may kill that person. It turned out that was not true.
- [40:08]
Russell Brand
So what are you.
- [40:09]
Piers Morgan
And I became. Wait, let me finish. I became incredibly censorious. The people who wouldn't have the jab for a period of a few months and then when they changed the advice, I felt I had actually in the initial moment abrogated my journalistic duty. What I should have done was be more skeptical, be more challenging and certainly be less censorious and judgmental.
- [40:32]
Russell Brand
Good.
- [40:33]
Piers Morgan
Accepting that in a fast moving health emergency the advice is likely to change, of course. So I accept all that.
- [40:39]
Russell Brand
No, you don't actually.
- [40:40]
Piers Morgan
Because where we're different is this. I still believe that the vaccine saved millions of lives.
- [40:46]
Russell Brand
Yes. A lot of people don't. No, I don't.
- [40:48]
Piers Morgan
You don't, but I do.
- [40:49]
Russell Brand
Good. Okay, that's good. That will be something you'll potentially be adjusting in the future, Piers. And when you do, you may have another mea culpa to offer to your audience. Because it seems significant to me that that crisis benefited some very powerful interests. Granted further governmental powers, instantiated the ability to govern at a global level, revealed just how willing people would b to take a medicine, a concoction, let's call it a little more accurately, that seems like it might be extremely deleterious, causing infertility, miscarriage, myocarditis, and that that was something that was undertaken with a degree of complicity at least.
- [41:24]
Piers Morgan
Do you believe in vaccines generally?
- [41:26]
Russell Brand
I have the kind of questions that anyone that's paying attention, there was a
- [41:29]
Piers Morgan
measles, a little outbreak of measles recently. Even RFK was giving evidence yesterday and said he absolutely believes in the measles vaccine. In fact, he said, I'm not anti vax at all. In fact, he said I support most vaccines. He had legitimate questions about the COVID vaccine because the speed at which that was designed.
- [41:48]
Russell Brand
Yes.
- [41:48]
Piers Morgan
In your case, are you anti all vaccine?
- [41:50]
Russell Brand
No, I don't.
- [41:51]
Piers Morgan
Which vaccines do you accept are good?
- [41:54]
Russell Brand
Calm down and slow down.
- [41:55]
Piers Morgan
It's a serious question.
- [41:56]
Russell Brand
I understand it's a serious question. Of course it is. But I want you to calm down and slow down.
- [42:01]
Piers Morgan
Very calm.
- [42:02]
Russell Brand
Because, well, then, in which case unyoke yourself from the conditioning of the world you've found yourself in. See, when Chomsky, and there's a guy whose reputation's changed said to Andrew ma in response to Andrew Marr's well, I've not been conditioned by the BBC. They've not told me what questions I can ask and what my perspective should be. And Chomsky said to Andrew Matthew, no, I'm telling you is that if you didn't have the right opinions and the right perspectives, you wouldn't be sitting in that chair. Now, you and I have moved between many chairs. We've seen what goes on at the Daily Mirror. We know what happens. We know how people get information. And I know your position on the most public things and I'm one. I want to talk to you just as a person that survived in this.
- [42:48]
Piers Morgan
On vaccines.
- [42:49]
Russell Brand
No, look, vaccines. I'm not an expert on vaccines. I don't know anything about vaccines.
- [42:52]
Piers Morgan
Are there any vaccines that you support that you think?
- [42:55]
Russell Brand
It's not something I'm interested in. I don't.
- [42:56]
Piers Morgan
But you're very interested in it. You talked about it a lot.
- [42:58]
Russell Brand
No, I'm interested in truth and where truth and vaccines intersect. I'm interested in that.
- [43:04]
Piers Morgan
So let me hold on.
- [43:06]
Russell Brand
With all of this going on, with all of the upcoming trial, with the complexity of contemporary media, with a country in tumult with crisis and protest and war, you care what the guy from Sarah Marshall and GQ thinks about vaccines? Well, maybe then my opinion is worth paying attention to.
- [43:24]
Piers Morgan
Well, that's my point.
- [43:24]
Russell Brand
And particularly if you have.
- [43:25]
Piers Morgan
That's my point. Either you think it is important or you don't.
- [43:28]
Russell Brand
What I think is important is being able to tell the truth and being able to control information. Now, when you worked at the sun and the Mirror, you'd have had certain obligations and restrictions. There's certain stories that get published and don't get published, certain celebrities that get taken down and others that don't. And now you work in this world and you. I. What my prayer is for you, Piers, is that you recognize, and I don't mean this in an insincere way because I think that mutually we have an opportunity to participate in something a little grander than standing on the sidelines with our faces in the trough of media money, participating in the exacerbating ignorance of people in the UK and the United States of America. The reason I think you've had all these controversies is because you are bullish and you are willing to have a conversation. You're willing to have a go. And that's a real great way.
- [44:14]
Piers Morgan
I'm also willing to admit when I'm right.
- [44:15]
Russell Brand
That's a lovely quality.
- [44:17]
Piers Morgan
Also, I think everyone should have that.
- [44:18]
Russell Brand
But it's good because yes, in response to new information, we should be able to reassess our opinion. Indeed, I didn't used to be a Christian. I'm a Christian now. And sometimes astonished, other people aren't Christian. And then I remember, you didn't used to be Christian. You didn't know that God is real. You didn't know that it says in the Bible, be careful. The institutions of power have been captured by dark forces. And what I'd like to say is, say 30 years ago, Alex Jones, David Icke looked at crackpots and wackos, and in many corners of our culture, they're still regarded with that level of derision. And they're on a spectrum. And let's say that they're the extreme end of that spectrum. And at the other end, BBC New York Times, 20 years, 30 years down the line, where do you think the needle is moving? Indeed. Where are you moving? You've moved from moving to where David
- [45:07]
Piers Morgan
Icke and Alex Jones, you were like,
- [45:09]
Russell Brand
well, did you report on a recent story that suggests that there might be global pedophile rings? Have you heard the rumors that many people believe that that pandemic had cooperation and planning and even sex with Bill Gates and Epstein? And those rumors now, conspiracy theories are by their nature difficult to corroborate because of the ability of real power to mask itself, the necessity of real power to mask itself. And while we sort of sit around in a Punch and Judy show of advocating for Trump or condemning Trump or laughing at Keir Starmer's voice or his former actions when he was at the CPS and what he didn't do about Julian Assange and what he didn't do about other famous and awful cases in our country and how he sped up the courses during the courts during those riots, while that's all taking place, we've not got our eye on what's truly happening. The power is migrating across our entire culture. People are caught up in many needless conflicts. Indeed, your show does a brilliant job of hosting conflicting views, where it's really great orators like Dave Smith and the
- [46:06]
Piers Morgan
great stories, because it's really important to bring people together.
- [46:08]
Russell Brand
It's nice, mate, but it's a little bit of a circus and we've got to find some conciliation because I believe this. I believe that we are. You know, and it's hard for me to talk about this because, yeah, I've got enough on my plate, man. I've got enough on my plate with my own personal life, like most people do, like most people do in their own way. But I sense we are at a time of real crisis in the uk I sense that that crisis is not gonna be resolved by any reshuffling of the existing participants in our parliamentary dance. And a lot of people feel that way. And that's why there's despondency and despair. And what the pandemic was. What was important about the pandemic, I believe, Piers, was not the. How well, you can undergird the science behind the vaccines. And obviously that don't look good at all in hindsight, but the way that the media complied and supported that messaging, of course, with, you know, it's a medical crisis and we have to protect. But this is my point. One second.
- [47:01]
Piers Morgan
Yeah, one second.
- [47:03]
Russell Brand
Of course. And we're all looking forward to it enormously. We should all have a little go, let it run long, like in a medical. How much of a medical crisis was it, indeed? And what was the role in media? If we step back for a moment and watch what happened during the war,
- [47:15]
Piers Morgan
many millions of people died.
- [47:17]
Russell Brand
Who was vilified, who was condemned? What are the excess deaths now? Who's controlling these statistics? Everywhere you look, Piers, there's such astonishing anomalies.
- [47:23]
Piers Morgan
But you accept many millions of people died from COVID do you?
- [47:26]
Russell Brand
I'm so uncertain about what happened at that time that I believe that I use it mostly now as a kind of lens to look at how disgusting our culture has become, how appalling, how condemnatory.
- [47:38]
Piers Morgan
But why are you avoiding my question?
- [47:39]
Russell Brand
Because of the. Because I have a better one. Because I have a better one. Who believes, even for an instant, that the function of government and media is to protect us and take care of us anymore. Who believes that they would put you in your homes and make you take a medication to preserve human life. I'm not talking about the wonderful staff at NHS hospitals or brilliant doctors or even magnificent scientists. I'm talking about this set of interconnected interests that are sometimes difficult to describe, visible in silhouette, evident in the Epstein files, obvious when wars happen, that you don't anticipate happening, but somehow seemed inevitable and clear. What would you have done during the
- [48:17]
Piers Morgan
COVID period, had you been Prime Minister, had you been Prime Minister when the COVID pandemic broke out, what would you have done?
- [48:24]
Russell Brand
All right, this is what I would do, is I would immediately, just to
- [48:29]
Piers Morgan
put it in context, you're seeing in Italy, in Lombardy, they're seeing thousands of people a day, I know, dying because they lived in big family groups and houses.
- [48:37]
Russell Brand
Yes.
- [48:38]
Piers Morgan
And it was ripping through, as it did through our care homes, for example.
- [48:40]
Russell Brand
I'd pay attention to them. Hazmat. Suits in China that suddenly disappeared and those stories of people dying in the street that sort of disappeared.
- [48:46]
Piers Morgan
The origin of it is one issue. But once it's broken out and it's clearly killing a lot of people very quickly and it's clearly gonna come to our doorstep.
- [48:55]
Russell Brand
I have an answer.
- [48:56]
Piers Morgan
You as the Prime Minister, what would you do?
- [48:57]
Russell Brand
Firstly, this, the very office of Prime Minister and Executive Power to that degree is absurd and corruptible. And it's one of the primary problems that must be addressed. Forms of technocracy that means government by some experts, that's what that means, could be really, really helpful in a true democracy. What I believe should have happened or could have happened, cause that's really what you're asking me about the pandemic period is that we should have remained open to a variety of views, including the views that were deliberately shut down and censored from the get go from prominent and valid experts like eg. Peter McCulloch, Robert Malone, J. Bhattacharya. Experts of institutions of great worth. Listen to what they were suggesting, like in the, what was it called? The Barraclough Agreement, the Barraclough Declaration, right at the beginning.
- [49:47]
Piers Morgan
How would you have known which ones to believe?
- [49:49]
Russell Brand
Well, the fact is, is that I wouldn't place so much certainty in my own perspective and opinion because firstly I believe in God. And so I truly do believe in the values of protecting as many people as possible. I do believe in values.
- [50:02]
Piers Morgan
How would you vote?
- [50:03]
Russell Brand
I would have listened to the valid experts. I would have investigated.
- [50:07]
Piers Morgan
But there were many valid experts, as you know, saying, saying different things.
- [50:10]
Russell Brand
Do you know another thing to look at? Who's getting paid by whom, who's worked for Moderna, who's worked for Pfizer, who's worked for, logically, AI, who's got these kind of. Who has connections to certain financial institutions.
- [50:21]
Piers Morgan
Would you have tried to make a vaccine?
- [50:22]
Russell Brand
What? I don't know mate, because we're again, we're venturing right into sort of territory. Don't ask.
- [50:28]
Piers Morgan
Yeah, the killer virus is coming, is killing obviously a lot of people very quickly. You have an ability through your own science to create something that may be an antidote to might not be perfect and there might be a lot of side effects as there have been with every vaccine in history. Would you, as the leader of the country have done anything to protect the people from the virus or would you have just let it do its thing?
- [50:49]
Russell Brand
In a sense, I have to reject this hypothesis and this condition because it brings to the forefront so many things I disagree with. But by answering the question in the way that I want to, I can, I think, tell you a lot. I'm not saying educate you. I'd never be so bold, very happy to be educated. But that's not like my intention and that's not what I believe is happening.
- [51:09]
Piers Morgan
I would like you to educate me.
- [51:10]
Russell Brand
This is what I think. I believe in maximum personal sovereignty and freedom. I believe that if you empower individual individuals and individual communities to the maximum, that you will get, if not better results, at least fairly, it won't save
- [51:23]
Piers Morgan
them from a killer virus.
- [51:24]
Russell Brand
Well, the eye, as it turns out, there wasn't one.
- [51:27]
Piers Morgan
Well, of course there was.
- [51:28]
Russell Brand
Okay. I would say this is what I would do. Our best evidence suggests currently that this virus is pretty significant and some people
- [51:37]
Piers Morgan
out of five people personally who died from it.
- [51:39]
Russell Brand
Yeah, well, check out the statistics around people dying from vaccines, Piers, because that's much, much, much more important and significant. Not least because the people that died from the vaccines were doing what the government told them to do.
- [51:50]
Piers Morgan
Can you think of any vaccine in history where people haven't died from side effects?
- [51:54]
Russell Brand
Look, here's.
- [51:55]
Piers Morgan
Do you know any?
- [51:57]
Russell Brand
I'm curious.
- [51:58]
Piers Morgan
I'm not saying there weren't legitimate questions.
- [51:59]
Russell Brand
I'm curious about it, about people having
- [52:01]
Piers Morgan
side effects, myocarditis, other things happened, no question. But I'm also aware that in every vaccine in history you have had side effects that have killed people. For some reason, the COVID vaccine has inspired this incredible anti vaxxer movement. And that's why I asked you the question, do you believe in the efficacy of any vaccines? Because rfk, who I really like, and I've interviewed him many times, who has a reputation as an anti vaxxer, made it crystal clear in his testimony this week that actually he's not anti vaccine, that he's been driving the measles vaccine here, he thinks very successfully. And so my question for you is, is there any vaccine that you think is driving a good thing?
- [52:45]
Russell Brand
I'm a little frustrated.
- [52:47]
Piers Morgan
Or are you anti vaccine?
- [52:48]
Russell Brand
I'm a little frustrated because what I sense is, is that I don't think you do it on purpose, but I think there are moments where you're doing your job where you get kind of caught up in the way that the material will be received and in a way that's responsible journalism because you have to be effective and you have to be successful. But my position is obviously people should go to their own nominated authorities when it comes to dealing with medical matters or Legal matters or any matters where expertise is available. But I think, Piers, if we get mired in a conversation about my personal understanding of vaccines, we'll miss the opportunity to sketch out together the problem. The problem is new technology means a true potential for decentralized power. Information has been decentralized. It led to Napster, it led to Occupy, it led to the Arab Spring. It will lead to more and more freedom. Unless it's radically overhauled by authoritarianism. We're in the process of seeing that happening. They can't just. And by they, I mean empire interests. Most people know what people mean by they these days. Of course, there's the possibility of just yielding to the ongoing centralization of authority, of just accepting what seems to be coming down the pipe. A dreadful AI future, low horizons for everyone. But there is also the possibility that people could have a version of democracy now where the way that currency has changed because of decentralization and blockchain, the way that information has changed because of independent media in which you are now a participant. So you should understand more than anybody, politics itself could change. So for me, when you ask me a question, what would you do if you're prime minister or what vaccines like in a way, who knows, who cares? What I believe in is that the systems themselves, if not radically reevaluated urgently, immediately to be in alignment with some true values, and I mean the values of God. However you understand God and you know how I do. If that doesn't take place pretty soon we're gonna be living in hell or something akin to it. And many people already are. The creeping shores of hell are all around us everywhere. And so why would you spend this time sort of pressing me on how much I know about vaccines or this vaccine or that?
- [54:52]
Piers Morgan
Well, only because you've talked about it so much. It's a simple question. You're either someone who believes in vaccines as a concept or you don't. It's not a difficult question. You've just chosen to take 20 minutes to avoid answering it.
- [55:05]
Russell Brand
I've not chosen to. I've like pointed out that by sort of focusing on reveals a sort of modality of not trying to detect what someone's actually attempting to say. And you know, and like with a vaccine or an illness, the simple answer is I would look at the risks versus benefits and get the best advice I could and make a decision based on that and would suggest everyone does that. And I don't think medical matters should be enforced. Global legal issue. And when one is out of interest,
- [55:38]
Piers Morgan
you don't have to answer this question if you think it's too personal.
- [55:39]
Russell Brand
I know that no one has to
- [55:40]
Piers Morgan
answer any questions, but you've got three young children. Have they been vaccinated at all?
- [55:45]
Russell Brand
I feel like you're just sort of sniffing around for headlines, and I just don't really know worth it.
- [55:49]
Piers Morgan
I'm really not. I'm really not.
- [55:51]
Russell Brand
So what do you.
- [55:51]
Piers Morgan
You took me on over vaccine. Fair enough. And I've had to admit I was wrong about a key part of the program.
- [55:57]
Russell Brand
But what's interesting.
- [55:58]
Piers Morgan
But I'm only asking you simple question, like, do you. Would you. Have you vaccinated your own kids?
- [56:03]
Russell Brand
Do you think that in the situation I'm in with my wife and my family that I want to generate any more unnecessary contention when I could be here with you, a man who in some way must be brilliant and you are, and have a conversation about what's taking place in our culture with regard to power and media in the last 20 years.
- [56:23]
Piers Morgan
By the way, you say a lot of things I agree with. Right.
- [56:26]
Russell Brand
So why don't we not. I'm not saying don't push back because a bit of conflict is good and it's good television and it's what you do or media.
- [56:31]
Piers Morgan
I think it's a very interesting conversation.
- [56:32]
Russell Brand
So do I. But, like, it's not interesting, I think, to get mired in something where my contributions are not of sufficient value to warrant this attention. When I believe. When it comes to the matter of the ideological crisis.
- [56:43]
Piers Morgan
Can I put a spanner in the works with your argument?
- [56:45]
Russell Brand
No, I'm not interested. An ideological.
- [56:48]
Piers Morgan
You have to let me know, Piers,
- [56:49]
Russell Brand
we're in a serious ideological crisis.
- [56:51]
Piers Morgan
But let me just put one pushback on what you just said, which is this. Which is. You are a very eloquent individual.
- [56:56]
Russell Brand
Yes.
- [56:57]
Piers Morgan
Right. You told me many years ago that you used to study dictionaries to learn long words.
- [57:02]
Russell Brand
Yes, I did do that.
- [57:02]
Piers Morgan
Okay. So you're very eloquent and you have a lot of good linguistic skills, and you're a very good debater and a very good arguer. But some viewers might watch this. Fans of yours won't. They'll think, go get him, Russell. But some people will be watching this and going, you're very, very, very good at avoiding answering questions that you've in your head thought, he just wants that for clickbait. And I don't want that for clickbait. I am actually just asking questions. I wanted to ask you.
- [57:31]
Russell Brand
I'd love to talk to those that you Know, hypothetical, but very real audience member. Right now we're on Piers Morgan show, right? Piers is a really talented man in lots of ways. He's been inside the system. This is a person that knows Rupert Murdoch, that's been in rooms with some of the most powerful people in the world, including Donald Trump. He won the Celebrity Apprentice. He's seen things, he knows things that are powerful and profound and probably dark and probably heavy to carry. In some ways, he's been been in a system that many of us think is on the precipice of implosion or terrifying and mad expansion. It seems to be doing that primarily by increasing cultural fear, increasing division and dread, and then providing us with solutions, but always at a cost. You will yield a little bit more of your personal power. You'll find yourself hating people you don't know, caring about some abstract, faraway issue. And look at your own life, your London, your town, your world, your city, your family, your dog. Isn't it all deteriorating just a little, little bit? And what are we doing for you, the media, the independent media? Are we participating in serious conversations that are going to empower you to live your life, to confront real power where it matters, to focus and to sort of manage the complexity of a migration crisis, but knowing that migrations by definition don't have any power, where is the real power? Who is controlling this? These are complex, nebulous matters. And I believe that with you, Piers Morgan, I could have a conversation that spans tabloid journalism into centrally owned media, kind of refugee escape out of it and into, oh, that talk TV things.
- [59:04]
Piers Morgan
Not working.
- [59:05]
Russell Brand
I'm gonna run this thing myself. The programmatic ads. I knew how much I'd have this much independence. I could be hosting these debates, having people entering their spleens on these tragic genocides and awful situations, and me just. I'm just another fellow occupant of this mad, giddy, sometimes disgusting culture that's right now in a kind of comparable position to you. But I believe with one important. Well, I don't know if there's an important difference what I want from you and what I expect from you. And what I'd like to demand from you is that, and from all of us, actually, is that when we're in this position, when we have these platforms that we don't take our hearts and our minds away from the people that could be positively impacted. And I don't think that, oh, Russell Brand vaccinates or doesn't vaccinate is not
- [59:47]
Piers Morgan
a valuable, you know what I'm Asking. The only reason I asked was there's been a rising anti vax sentiment, particularly in America.
- [59:54]
Russell Brand
It's cynicism.
- [59:55]
Piers Morgan
Well, hang on.
- [59:55]
Russell Brand
Skepticism. It's not anti vax, it's. We don't trust anyone. The reason I don't trust anyone is cause no one's telling them the truth anymore.
- [60:02]
Piers Morgan
Finish my point. So to the extent that even mmr, which is one that is recommended by almost every legitimate scientist in the world, a lot of people are beginning to resist giving that to their children because they bought into the notion that all vaccines are dangerous. I think that's an incredibly dangerous development.
- [60:18]
Russell Brand
Yes.
- [60:18]
Piers Morgan
Out of the COVID pandemic. If we cease to believe in vaccines which have been for many decades established as stopping measles epidemics and months and so on.
- [60:28]
Russell Brand
I get it. I know all this bit.
- [60:30]
Piers Morgan
Yeah, but that's a legitimate concern, isn't it?
- [60:32]
Russell Brand
When you lie, I'm not about you personally, but when you as a representative and conduit of truth, I.e. media, the interstitial material between the people that have power or information and the people that receive it. When those people lie, people stop trusting them and then you have to yourself kind of madly aggregate. Would I be better off to take a position where if I'm told something by the media, I just flat out don't believe it? Because it's probably a lie. I've seen it so many times. Weapons of mass destruction. That geezer get shot in the woods. Take this thing, take that thing, eat this food, drive this car. And so many times it's turned out to be a lie. And also even more important than that, even more important than that, if such a thing were possible, people in power being honest to the people they govern is the technology now exists for it to become irrelevant, that there's no need for it.
- [61:20]
Piers Morgan
Okay, look, here's my problem with.
- [61:22]
Russell Brand
Give me an actual.
- [61:23]
Piers Morgan
You've cited two people where you think the pendulum is swinging the right way. Alex Jones and David Icke. Alex Jones had a billion dollar one. Hang on.
- [61:32]
Russell Brand
No, because you're already misrepresenting my view once again, you're doing it live. What I'm saying is Alex Jones. I'm using them deliberately to demonstrate the idea of an extreme. And over time, the tendency of more people having access to information is. We're moving closer to that. I'm not saying, even though, you know, dear old David Icke would back this up to his death, that the Queen's actually a lizard or whatever, but he was sure right about them. Pedophiles of course it's wrong that Alex Jones said that thing about Sandy Hook. That's terrible. And those parents must have grieved all the harder for that. The terrible insensitivity. But let's not forget that he somehow knew that them Twin Towers were going down. Let's pay attention to where he's correct. And in fact, why don't we do it?
- [62:11]
Piers Morgan
He knew the Twin Towers were going down.
- [62:12]
Russell Brand
Oh, my God. There's video footage of him in 1997. There's a guy, he's gonna blow up the Twin Towers. Everyone's seen it. The relevant audience knows now where you are. And we're going through.
- [62:19]
Piers Morgan
This is complete nonsense, right?
- [62:20]
Russell Brand
No, it's not.
- [62:21]
Piers Morgan
Osama bin Laden tried to blow up the World Trade Center. Yeah, but the genesis of that whole story is that whatever he said, he had no intimate knowledge of any Al Qaeda plot to take down the Twin Towers. What had happened is that several years before bin Laden had taken place in the World Trade Center.
- [62:38]
Russell Brand
You are right in this moment advocating for the worst impulses in humanity.
- [62:42]
Piers Morgan
No, you are. No, you're trying to make me think that Alex Jones knew the truth, the 911 was gonna happen. He knew it as a fact. He had been given information that meant Al Qaeda were gonna take it down. Bullshit.
- [62:53]
Russell Brand
Are you not aware?
- [62:54]
Piers Morgan
Oh, he did know. Why didn't he go tell the President?
- [62:57]
Russell Brand
Why won't you? Well, do you not recall the President's
- [63:01]
Piers Morgan
gratitude citing Alex Jones having prior knowledge of the Twin Towers attack?
- [63:06]
Russell Brand
Okay, let me.
- [63:06]
Piers Morgan
Come on, Russell, it sounds ridiculous.
- [63:08]
Russell Brand
What I'm saying to you is that many, many times people that were marginalized and condemned and criticized and called wackos and crack jobs, as we get more and more access to information that is not filtered, even though I recognize we get a lot of untrue and unhelpful information, I'm really trying my best not to contribute to that, even by being boring. The needle of public opinion, and I think in this instance, correctly is becoming deeply skeptical and cynical about what we're told by the BBC, what we're told by the New York Times, what we're being told even by prominent influencers like you. And in some cases it's driven a
- [63:39]
Piers Morgan
lot by social media. I think.
- [63:41]
Russell Brand
Indeed, of course it is. And the very interests that are able to control mainstream media then migrate to social media and attempt to control that. And what I am proposing is instead of using this time and these resources to create endless conflict, whether that's between me and you or everyone in our Beloved conflict. I know that. Yeah, so do I. I'm just playing along.
- [64:01]
Piers Morgan
I see this.
- [64:02]
Russell Brand
It's a conversation. I don't.
- [64:03]
Piers Morgan
I like debate.
- [64:04]
Russell Brand
So do I.
- [64:05]
Piers Morgan
Even with people. If you say things that don't agree with. Fine.
- [64:07]
Russell Brand
All right, well, then, if it's a debate.
- [64:08]
Piers Morgan
We live in a democracy.
- [64:09]
Russell Brand
All right, let's have a debate. But if we are going to have a debate, can we do something where I would really benefit from your skill set? Let's do that. But let me just finish this point. The technology exists now for this constant babble of conflict to be resolved because people could have more control over their own communities, just with the following of a few basic principles, that food should be grown as locally as possible to where it will be consumed. People in a community should have the maximum control possible over decisions that affect them, whether that's migration or whether or not there's a hostel in Epping. And when it comes to the major decisions, they're a referenda continually to the technology exists. The reason we're not having this discussion, the reason dear old Pearce is shuffling his papers, is because politics should be boring. It should just be about the management of resources. It shouldn't be about mad ideologues misusing us and controlling us with our own curious ends. Now, where I would benefit from your tenacity and ability to push back.
- [65:00]
Piers Morgan
Yes.
- [65:02]
Russell Brand
Is in the event I'm trying to
- [65:04]
Piers Morgan
find a specific thing while I'm talking to you, but go on.
- [65:05]
Russell Brand
Well, how can you possibly pay attention while ruffling through your eyelids? I can hear.
- [65:09]
Piers Morgan
I can hear everything.
- [65:09]
Russell Brand
Look at that. You're possessive about that.
- [65:11]
Piers Morgan
That's my truth.
- [65:12]
Russell Brand
Uncensored. Nothing to be scared of.
- [65:15]
Piers Morgan
Hello. These are my. My interview notes at the book.
- [65:18]
Russell Brand
Promote the book. That one. Promote this one.
- [65:21]
Piers Morgan
I'm going to talk about you.
- [65:22]
Russell Brand
It might be. So there's hope for all of us.
- [65:24]
Piers Morgan
What is the. Oh, here we are. Look. So this is.
- [65:27]
Russell Brand
No. Yes. No. No, no. Yes. Tried my best.
- [65:30]
Piers Morgan
Do you accept you've been a bit of a chameleon when it comes to your position?
- [65:34]
Russell Brand
From Piers Morgan.
- [65:35]
Piers Morgan
Yeah.
- [65:36]
Russell Brand
From Israel, Palestine, Piers Morgan. From COVID Piers Morgan. Now, I've been. I've been trying it like you, actually, because I don't. I want to love you. And like. Actually, I don't have to love me, actually, I don't even find that difficult because I tell you something that sincere. When I look in your eyes and you tell me about that hip and the tibia, I can feel. I feel sadness in you. I Know you're brash and I know you're strong.
- [65:57]
Piers Morgan
I'm not sad about it. Bored. Bored with hobbling.
- [66:01]
Russell Brand
What do you think bored means?
- [66:02]
Piers Morgan
Really? Let me ask you. When people say. All right, see, my theory about you is you have an addictive personality.
- [66:08]
Russell Brand
There's no doubt. But hold on, I'm gonna stop you even there, because addict. Oh, yeah. Bear Grylls told me to be slow and calm.
- [66:14]
Piers Morgan
Right, so be slow and calm.
- [66:15]
Russell Brand
But addictive doesn't.
- [66:16]
Piers Morgan
Let me give you. Let me ask you then. So take vegetarianism, right? You became a vegetarian at age 14 after you were influenced by the Smith's album Meat Is Murder.
- [66:26]
Russell Brand
Man, this is government water. Can I have some non government water, please, out of a bottle? Because, you know, like, I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, not Piers Morgan, where everything's underlined with absolute truth, but the efficacy of those vaccines you now eat. Could I get bottled water? That's not directly from the. Not to be difficult.
- [66:40]
Piers Morgan
Someone, you know, you know, eat meat. Thank you.
- [66:43]
Russell Brand
Right, yes.
- [66:45]
Piers Morgan
So what happened there?
- [66:47]
Russell Brand
What happened there was like my veganism was really motivated by not wanting to see animals. I really don't like the idea of animal suffering. And I think when everything changed in my life with my boy and the allegations of rape and stuff. Here, Gizzle bottle, will you, mate? I think. Oh, someone getting one. Love it. Thank you. Thank you. When my boy was ill and the allegations happened, like everything felt. Everything sort of changed very, very quickly. And I was confronted with something like, you know. You know. Cause you've seen the news, so it was very sort of confrontational. And the significant thing is that I was brought to Christ in an involuntary instant. Coming to Christ was not. It was not a process of inner philosophical debate. It was like being sort of smashed. My wife's always eating meat, you know, my wife, she's an unbelievable stable, beautiful, incredible person. She was going to come. She wanted to say hello to you. I wish he had in a way, because it would have anchored us and instead we was filming and you got HS tiki toky trauma out of it, didn't you? But we're not like film. I'm not trying to. Gotcha. No one. I don't need anything. I've got everything I need anyway. So, like, when I come to the Lord, like, the Lord came to me. A recognition in an instant that instead of all these sort of diffuse and sometimes contradictory and difficult to hold ideas, some of which are still, you know, as you can tell, deal with and deal in that The Christian story that God came to earth in human form that died somehow taking our sin upon himself and was resurrected was true. And like I felt it not rationally or logically, I felt it in my belly. And then from that minute, I was reading about it. Now, I suppose what happened after that is I didn't feel the need to have a self selected, arbitrary system of righteousness or morality like Wokeism or veganism, which has a good intention, as does Wokeness, I think. Compassion, kindness, these are really lovely, lovely ideas. But it just didn't anymore. My wife was eating a lamb shop and I remember the smell of lamb in my nan's in Dagenham. I remember this, the smell of it, and I ate it. And I felt like one of my friends who's always been a meat eater said, it's them or you, Russell, it's them or you. You gotta start eating meat to survive out there.
- [68:58]
Piers Morgan
Okay, so then this brings me to your political evolution. In 2014, you said Fox News was a fanatical terrorist propagandist organization. By 2023, you're popping up on Fox News quite happily. What happened there?
- [69:14]
Russell Brand
Well, I certainly. I wouldn't describe it as anything other than what do I think about Fox News? What do I think about Fox News? When I went on there with Tucker or Hannah Eam, the point I said, say when I was on Bill Maher that time and they were like, oh, msnbc, like, Fox is evil, but MSNBC is great. This is what it was. This is what it was. But get ready to listen. Like, if you come from a normal working class background and you sort of encounter the normal kind of tropes, then you get involved in the entertainment industry, there's a sort of eliding into champagne socialism. Like that somehow your views of equality and fairness can fit in the opulence of Hollywood. Everyone does it. They're all doing it every day. That's the norm, isn't it? Right. And as I sort of started to experience the difference between not being. Being poor and not being poor, I like, I started to have a slightly different perspective. And as I looked at an institution like Fox, it was easy to vilify and make content out of because you had Bill O'Reilly, you had obviously sort of deliberate and misleading reporting. So it was very easy to make jokes about it. But as the world got more complex, as the left sort of went a bit kind of crazy, I think Piers, because I was online and reading this stuff, I understood that there was a different way of operating in those worlds. I still recognize who owns Fox and what Fox's primary intentions are and where Fox's funding comes from. But I feel like most people that with that ultimate epitomizing object of cultural controversy, Trump, it was kind of, oh, wow, this guy is gonna somehow detonate. You were friends with him. You were a person that was affiliated with him. Yeah, I remember when I had some spat of him years ago and he said some rude stuff about me. Then I had the view that people from that culture group had of Trump. Oh, I don't like this guy. Then I sort of saw his ability to kind of be searingly honest and funny and authentic. And now what I think about him is he's a person that's incapable of masking himself. So I, generally speaking, lost the comfort of categories of, like, left, good, right, bad, liberal, good, libertarian, bad.
- [71:14]
Piers Morgan
Climate change.
- [71:17]
Russell Brand
Don't just shout. Is that what we're. Is this what we're reduced to? What's happened? Have you disengaged?
- [71:21]
Piers Morgan
No, no. Just in your book, 2014 Book Revolution, you called for a revolution in big corporations, existing political and economic systems. You collaborated with Naomi Klein saying, ditch capitalism, saved the planet, or ditch the planet and save capitalism. And you wanted people to take down massive corporations like Exxon to save the planet. But since 2023, you've shifted. It appears to be more towards climate change being a lot of nonsense. What do you feel?
- [71:54]
Russell Brand
I no longer believe that the state in any form is capable of meaningfully and in good grace representing the will of the people. So any edict that comes out of there, be very skeptical and in fact, always investigate what the conclusions they draw are. For example, climate change is the example you've selected. Just interrogate what their proposals are, look at the proposals coldly, and then consider. Do you think this is because of climate change, or is it because they want to?
- [72:29]
Piers Morgan
Do you believe climate change is real,
- [72:32]
Russell Brand
actually similar to vaccines? I'm not trying to sit on the fence here. I would say, like, I don't know, because I don't think it's possible to know. I've heard that there are intergalactic influences on. What's that brilliant man's name? Randall Carlson says, like, even sort of, there can be influence in our environment that goes way beyond human, human causes. But in a way, what's important here is you can negate that entirely by saying we should love and revere the planet. It was Earth Day here in New York, and I participated. They obviously, they may have recognized me, but they didn't. Certainly didn't recognize where I am now because they had me participate in this Earth Day stuff because I just happened to be walking through Times Square and I got no problem saying we should revere and respect the Earth. And if the way that our, that ecological policies is determined is to maximize profit for powerful organizations, that's plainly wrong. All of us on an individual level should be doing everything we can to respect and revere the Earth. And certainly at a global and corporate level, how are those solutions going to be brought about by an alliance between the very interests that got us in this mess in the first place? I wouldn't have thought.
- [73:36]
Piers Morgan
But I can see, I can find a lot you say about corporate power and political power and media power. I can find myself nodding along thinking, yeah, you're making good points. It's inarguable. There has been abuse and corruption and unfair influence and bias in all of those things. Right. But here's my problem, if I may put it to you, where I think you sit. You talked about sitting on the fence and it's a little bit. I would. I mean, some would describe it as a grift. They'd say, come on, Russell, you change your mind about stuff and a sixpence, right?
- [74:09]
Russell Brand
That's what they say about you, actually.
- [74:11]
Piers Morgan
Well, sure, but I'm interviewing you. Right. So my point is.
- [74:15]
Russell Brand
So you think, well, that you can command more challenge.
- [74:17]
Piers Morgan
I'm not saying I believe this. I'm saying, you know, there are people who think you're basically just a massive grifter, that you're very smart, you're very eloquent, you can be very persuasive with the power of your words, but that actually, when it comes to any of these issues, you don't really have a personal principle.
- [74:34]
Russell Brand
I do. And it's a really.
- [74:34]
Piers Morgan
Your view is that all people in power are terrible. But when I ask you, and I've challenged you to say, well, what would you actually do? You go on a 20 minute eloquent spiel which doesn't answer the question.
- [74:44]
Russell Brand
Oh, my God. It actually does answer the question. Let me try and do it again. Firstly, find faith and integrity in yourself. Do whatever you can. Pray, find God. Secondly, we cannot have systems that prioritize the centralization of power, whether that's representative democracy or this global commercialism.
- [75:01]
Piers Morgan
So what would you do?
- [75:03]
Russell Brand
Use the technology that we currently have. All right, good. This is the bit I wanted to get to. Can I have a glass of water? I mean, it's Associated Press news.
- [75:10]
Piers Morgan
Well, they're not under any obligation to give us Oh, I see.
- [75:13]
Russell Brand
Well, actually, this guy, my mate Jake,
- [75:14]
Piers Morgan
we are trying to find out somewhere they're not our servants.
- [75:16]
Russell Brand
No, absolutely. Hold on a minute. I'm not declaring these.
- [75:18]
Piers Morgan
They don't all work for us. We're just hiring their studios.
- [75:21]
Russell Brand
No, I know that and I, you know, I've. I think I've established quite a good rule.
- [75:24]
Piers Morgan
We should be cognizant. They're not working.
- [75:26]
Russell Brand
But no, with my mate Jake, though, who's over there, who actually is working for me. Well, Jake can get you on directing who I'm directing it to. And also there was one or two other people, so it's not. Just to be clear, I'm not sort of like going, all right, get me some water.
- [75:40]
Piers Morgan
They should get you a nice bottle of water.
- [75:41]
Russell Brand
Well, I just thought that the facility itself might have, amidst its many benefits, water. Thank you so much and so kind. What's the obligation? Crossing camera, crossing the floor. See? Thank you very much. I really do appreciate that glass of water. Would you like some? Don't be proud.
- [75:58]
Piers Morgan
I'm good, man. I like the tap water.
- [75:59]
Russell Brand
You like the government water? Love it.
- [76:00]
Piers Morgan
Yeah, no problem. Even if it kills me.
- [76:03]
Russell Brand
I can't keep drinking the government water, Piers. I can't keep taking the government water.
- [76:06]
Piers Morgan
Actually, the water is some of the cleanest in the world. But you know that.
- [76:10]
Russell Brand
Look, you're a very argumentative and obstreperous individual.
- [76:14]
Piers Morgan
Not at all. I just like to challenge.
- [76:16]
Russell Brand
You've even argued with that.
- [76:17]
Piers Morgan
I like to challenge people.
- [76:18]
Russell Brand
Go on. So go on. We were talking about. Oh, yeah, this is what I wanted to say. You say that like I'm a grifter and actually to tell you that.
- [76:27]
Piers Morgan
No, I say other people have said that it's all a grift and they would actually include. And I, you know, this is for you to. To actually, in the end only, you know. But you've got this new book, how to become a Christian in seven days. People say, look, you only became a Christian seven months after the allegations were made public and that this is part of your thing that you've worked out, that this could give you some kind of COVID you're a born again Christian. That this is, you know, you've heard the. You've heard people say this, but what do you think? A lot of other people take you very sincerely and believe absolutely in your commitment to this. I know.
- [77:01]
Russell Brand
I hear you, mate.
- [77:01]
Piers Morgan
I was with a mutual friend of yours, bumped into Embear Grylls the other day. He was a great guy who Was there at your baptism. We famously saw the video and so on. He absolutely believes that it's sincere and genuine, and I completely respect that. I don't know. Right. In the same way that I don't know where the truth lies about the
- [77:19]
Russell Brand
allegations you face, or Covid or Israel or Palestine. Terrifying.
- [77:25]
Piers Morgan
Sure. And opinion. Opinion.
- [77:27]
Russell Brand
Yeah.
- [77:28]
Piers Morgan
I'm not afraid to change my opinion.
- [77:29]
Russell Brand
Good.
- [77:30]
Piers Morgan
Right. My question for you is, do you have genuinely principled opinions? Do you think?
- [77:35]
Russell Brand
Yeah, because I think if you don't have. Yeah, I do. And. But obviously I asked myself the same question. Why go to the aggravation of going on Piers Morgan? Like. Because I tell you, like, with everything that's been shown to me, with everything I've learned, the. The idea of maybe selling some books is a professional obligation in some ways, but it sort of doesn't weigh that heavily on me in the scheme of things. Just because everything else is so sort of varied. Luminous, brilliant, beautiful, awful trial, magnificent trial, best of times, worst of times, revelation of real truth, exposure to the fallibility and facetiousness of fame. Like I. In a sense, Piers, like you, I don't have the kind of thick skin you have. Cause I sometimes think you genuinely. If people think you're a grifter, I don't think that. I think you are a creature of our time, in a way. I think that's what is always brought forward.
- [78:31]
Piers Morgan
Well, I think in the end, only I know and only you know. Right.
- [78:34]
Russell Brand
Maybe not even. Maybe not even. Because why would you make yourself the highest authority? You can sort of understand your intentions. But there is a thing in psychology called the unconscious. There is a thing in Christianity called the spirit. And both of these things indicate that your personhood is not absolute authority. And in your sort of continued stance, which is somewhat legitimate as a journalist, of neutrality, what's kind of masked in that is that Christianity demands of you that you make a choice.
- [79:00]
Piers Morgan
But I'm not neutral.
- [79:01]
Russell Brand
You keep saying I've got, like, you know, I'm proffering an opinion, but I don't care. Covid. I don't know. I could be wrong.
- [79:07]
Piers Morgan
I get people on from all sides to debate here. I personally have a lot of opinions, a lot of strong opinions. I'm not afraid to express them. If you ask me about do I believe in vaccines? Absolutely, is my answer. Your answer was a long spiel of not answering.
- [79:20]
Russell Brand
It's like, I'd be really careful about it. I'd be right careful. I'd read Gavin de Becker's book Face Facing the Facts, that's what. Forbidden facts. Forbidden Facts by Gavin de Becker. That's what I'd read on that. And I'd read the Real Anthony Fauci by Robert Kennedy and then make a decision. And also tell me what books are good to demonstrate the alternative.
- [79:38]
Piers Morgan
Tell me this. What. What kind of Christian are you?
- [79:41]
Russell Brand
I'm like. Like a kind of Christian that has to hang by a thin thread of faith, knowing that I am broken. That you are broken.
- [79:49]
Piers Morgan
Do you have a denomination or not?
- [79:51]
Russell Brand
Why?
- [79:52]
Piers Morgan
I'm just asking.
- [79:53]
Russell Brand
No, I'm very.
- [79:53]
Piers Morgan
It's not an allegation, but I'm just asking.
- [79:56]
Russell Brand
I just treat everything as an allegation.
- [79:57]
Piers Morgan
I know you do, but you, if you don't mind me saying, was everything
- [80:00]
Russell Brand
okay in that interview we did in 2006?
- [80:02]
Piers Morgan
Yes, but it's, you know, you are slightly hypersensitive to that kind of thing, I think, because you don't really do many interviews, if I'm honest. You don't do. This is the first interview you've done with any Brit, for example, since the allegations. I'm grateful to you for doing it. But you are slightly hypersensitive to anyone challenging you, because most of the media, you do. You don't really get challenged.
- [80:22]
Russell Brand
I don't mind being challenged, and I want to be challenged, actually. And I like being challenged. And, like, I didn't go, what? Piers Morgan. This is what he's like, yeah, he's gonna be stroking my thigh for at the end.
- [80:33]
Piers Morgan
I think this is a good conversation we've had. People will watch it. They'll take your view, they'll agree with you or me about this, that whatever.
- [80:40]
Russell Brand
I think what you're interpreting.
- [80:41]
Piers Morgan
But this should be how conversations are had.
- [80:44]
Russell Brand
I don't think it is, actually. But, like, what you're interpreting as sensitivity. It might be sensitivity. It's a form of intelligence or a form of awareness. So maybe that's the right word, but it's also a kind of frustration. And the frustration is the sort of feeling that we could. That we're supposed to be saying something that could be valuable, and we're not quite getting to it. And I think the reason we're not quite getting to it is because you're so sort of expertly schooled in a particular type of discovery. And I felt that when I made an incorrect assessment of Trump on the one time I met him in 2006, or something like that, of like, oh, he's a person that has a sort of a genius, but in a very narrow line. I said to myself, it's almost as if being good at the game. Hungry hippos is the most important thing in the world. And this person's a master of it, and he's become elevated with a very unique skill. Same could be said of LeBron or of Beckham or of anyone. Like a skill that has. Is prized in a particular culture, a particular time. And what I'm thinking with you is you're so good at sort of generating sort of conflict and sort of a kind of a needling energy. And I am easily needled because I think that there's purpose and meaning in life, and I believe in new systems of leadership and new systems of government, and I believe in real change. In fact, even the very idea of government could become a position of service. That I believe there are people of valor that are just waiting, that even in the fraughtness that one might get. If you talk one minute to Tommy Robinson and the next minute to George Galloway, and you're aware of Jeremy Corbyn and you're aware of Yanis Varoufakis, you think, well, there actually are sort of great minds that could participate in a way of actually improving people's lives. And in Christ, there is the potential that you yourself can live with. The odd paradox of your brokenness and the sort of failings of your life and the mistakes you've made and the errors, but also becoming whole in that. Whole in that. For there even to be justice or innocence, these concepts and words we're bandying about, there has to be a God or you can't have those concepts.
- [82:38]
Piers Morgan
Probably this Bible, actually, but I think it was this one you took into court, wasn't it?
- [82:42]
Russell Brand
Sometimes I also think you're not listening. Like, that's why, like, I was.
- [82:45]
Piers Morgan
You're literally talking about.
- [82:46]
Russell Brand
But like. But what I mean by that is, is that this might sound a bit, I don't know, woo woo hippie. That the sort of. The energy is a kind of like, you talk this Bible into court, and I feel like I already know where that thread's going.
- [82:58]
Piers Morgan
Where's it going?
- [82:59]
Russell Brand
It's gonna go, what are you, like, holding in there? What did you think that was gonna be achieved by that? And it's not like it's a question. Cynicism. That's what it is. It's cynicism. I think you're cynical about what. I'm not preempting your question, I'm preempting your essence. I think you're cynical about human beings. I think you're cynical about yourself.
- [83:15]
Piers Morgan
Not at all.
- [83:16]
Russell Brand
I think you're cynical about yourself.
- [83:17]
Piers Morgan
I'm one of the most positive people you'll ever meet.
- [83:19]
Russell Brand
I don't think you believe that you're capable of greatness. I don't think you're.
- [83:22]
Piers Morgan
I've already achieved greatness.
- [83:23]
Russell Brand
Oh, God. Darling. I don't think you think you're capable of participating in meaningful change or even meaningful conversations. I think you think the best that Piers Morgan can do for himself is to host hideous spectacles of conflict about real serious, awful, dreadful stuff.
- [83:38]
Piers Morgan
Why are you here, then?
- [83:39]
Russell Brand
Well, I'm here actually because I don't mind trying to learn a little bit from you.
- [83:44]
Piers Morgan
You prepare to come on something you categorize as a hideous spectacle.
- [83:48]
Russell Brand
No, I think it's a hideous spectacle. Say, for example, the stuff where there's multi panels and people are, like, really screeching each other, maybe about trans issues or whatever. And. I don't know, maybe there's something cathartic in it, maybe. But I don't. And also, I don't want to lay all that on your shoulders. I'm just saying I don't think that's the right way for us to be stewarding the culture. And I think we could do better. And I suppose if. To really go into it, what I think is this is a person I could probably learn from and benefit from, but it would. There'd have to be trust. And it's hard to. It's hard to trust because I sometimes think you're too caught in the world that you used to be in and it.
- [84:21]
Piers Morgan
Can I go back to asking a question about your Bible?
- [84:24]
Russell Brand
Yes, if you want to.
- [84:25]
Piers Morgan
Thank you. That. Was that the one you took into call?
- [84:27]
Russell Brand
You're the very one.
- [84:28]
Piers Morgan
Okay. What was your thinking of taking it into court and what you were seeing? Looking at some passages, what were the relevant passages for you?
- [84:35]
Russell Brand
All right. Thank you for asking me.
- [84:37]
Piers Morgan
Thank you. That didn't hurt, did I?
- [84:40]
Russell Brand
A little bit. It was this from Isaiah. You're right. Beer did say, you know, be chilled. Sometimes I lose the chill, man. It's pretty. Is this. This? They don't like that, do they, in the old gallery? But remember, you just said it's a hired spot. This is from Isaiah. Excuse me. It says here. The verse that I was looking at that day was not this. I can't actually find the verse that I had that day, but this is good enough. This is from Isaiah 12. I will praise you, Lord. Although you are angry with me, your anger has turned away and you have comforted me. Surely God is my salvation. I will trust and not be afraid. The Lord. The Lord himself is my strength and my defense. What I was looking at before is that there's a bit where he says, see, I'm doing a new thing. Isaiah says, like springs in the desert, like in the desert of your life, when your life becomes barren and difficult, that new resource with God will appear. And in a situation that obviously feels quite pressurized and condensed, and in all those preliminary appearings that I've attended, there's the presence of something very beautiful. Grace, it would be called. In one of the moments, I think it was the first hearing, although I've had several. The people that patted me down for Secura Corps went, all right, Russell geese are just 50 years old. Just some normal geese patted me down on that for weapons or, I don't know, sharps. And I'm gonna have to touch your hair now. You're not gonna like this. He went, the whole country's behind you, mate. Whole country's behind you. And I felt very, very encouraged. I felt very encouraged that these institutions with their emblems, unicorns and lions are not all there is to our country. And the reason I take it here is to sort of remember, that's the point, I think, of becoming a Christian, is to remember to put back together again who you are. That we're not, you're not, and I'm not our identity in the world, like the identity of I have to do this to get money or get whatever it is that we think we're getting and it actually is real, into so much as to say Christ is real. That even in the transition from my. And, you know, you had the perspicacity and the insight to diagnose it. Even in my agitation at being in an unfamiliar situation, even with someone I've known interstitially, as you correctly assessed at the beginning. You know, my whole life's a trial, and it's not culminating because there will be a life after it, whether it's in jail or not. But in that trial, in the hardest times, I found him. And it's not like when you manage procurement for multiple facilities. Every order matters, but when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery, so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Palliative and I suppose the reason I feel difficult around you is because I feel like there's a cynicism that if I talk about something that is very beautiful and certainly robust enough to withstand any of us.
- [89:12]
Piers Morgan
I'm not questioning your faith.
- [89:13]
Russell Brand
I'm not saying that you are. I'm not saying that you are. That it's. I think it's so important. Not because of me, obviously, because who are any one of us? He has no favorites. But I feel like, you know, yeah, hopefully this isn't a grift. Hopefully all of our lives aren't just some stupid attempt to garner material things in this temporary place to create the appearance of permanence as we just pass through time to death in this horror of this time where the worst things that could be said about a man were said about me. And while my son was, you know, having surgery, as you already know because you've heard me say it elsewhere, the most graceful and beautiful things happened in my life. I felt whole and I felt loved and I felt everything's going to be all right. And also what's been surprising about it is all the things that I kind of knew just as a kid and going through life as a counter cultural person. I mean, not trusting authority is what I mean by that. It's all been underwritten by scripture. It is explained and foretold. You're fallen, Piers. I'm fallen. We will participate in this world in a fallen way. And I reckon the reason me and you both love Bear Igrils in spite of our sort of, I don't know, whatever this chemistry is, is because he is sincere and he demonstrates Christ. And I do have a tendency to, as a raconteur and as an entertainer or whatever, try to present stuff. And I do have a tendency, I think, as a person that's felt, even prior to all this happening,
- [90:47]
Piers Morgan
feel like
- [90:47]
Russell Brand
I'm being under attack my whole life anyway. And that if I wasn't famous and if I wasn't sleeping with loads of women, that I wasn't worth knowing or even worth anything or even worth being alive. And even though of course it's the worst thing that's ever happened in my life to be accused of these things, but God provided, because that was happening with my boy Herbie, who's doing real well, it sort of showed me it was all bullshit, man. You know who you are, you know what you've done, you know what you've not done. You know, your behavior.
- [91:13]
Piers Morgan
How is, how's Laura, your wife, dealt with this?
- [91:15]
Russell Brand
She's like, she's well, I'm in a real marriage, mate. And I suppose you are, are you? So what it's like being in a real marriage is like it's someone who actually knows me and who's known me for a very long time and knows like see when even in the introduction he's some people he's a silver tongued devil and other people he's an asshole. Yeah. Yes and yeah, silver tongue devil. But she knows me and she loves the reality of who I am. And she's like a cradle Catholic. But she like you, I figure sort of, you know, it's hard to live your life like Christ is real because the world is telling you in a million different ways that he is not, that God isn't real.
- [92:03]
Piers Morgan
Is she a believer as well? She is committed. Is she?
- [92:05]
Russell Brand
She and I, me and my wife Laura, we've like. Her beliefs are very different from mine in a way like I suppose it would be because it's hit in a very different prism in her. But we're certainly got a real alliance and neither of us have got any like even. I suppose why I got rankled even at the asking about the denomination is because it's so beautiful in its purity and its formlessness.
- [92:27]
Piers Morgan
But most Christians have no problem saying what denomination they are.
- [92:29]
Russell Brand
It's not. I've got a problem with it.
- [92:30]
Piers Morgan
I've got this challenge and I'm a Catholic. I've got no problem telling you.
- [92:33]
Russell Brand
I know, but you're very different. You're very different.
- [92:36]
Piers Morgan
But why, why is it so difficult to answer?
- [92:38]
Russell Brand
It's not difficult to answer. Like I'm really interested in Catholicism. Really interested. Kind of love it.
- [92:43]
Piers Morgan
You then were a Buddhist.
- [92:44]
Russell Brand
See, that's like that, that's antagonistic.
- [92:47]
Piers Morgan
No, it's not.
- [92:48]
Russell Brand
It's factual.
- [92:48]
Piers Morgan
Like you were an atheist.
- [92:50]
Russell Brand
What are you going to be next?
- [92:51]
Piers Morgan
You were a Muslim. That's what some. That's what some people think.
- [92:56]
Russell Brand
Hitler.
- [92:56]
Piers Morgan
What do you think about Hitler? That's what some people think.
- [92:58]
Russell Brand
Okay.
- [92:59]
Piers Morgan
That's what some people.
- [93:00]
Russell Brand
Should we get the jack. Have you vaccinated your own children?
- [93:02]
Piers Morgan
Take Bear's advice and calm down.
- [93:03]
Russell Brand
No, you take Bear's advice and be a good man.
- [93:05]
Piers Morgan
I am a good man.
- [93:06]
Russell Brand
Be a good man. I'm just. And no, it cost you to be a good man. It might cost you everything.
- [93:10]
Piers Morgan
You might not like.
- [93:11]
Russell Brand
It might cost you everything to become one, but you can do it.
- [93:14]
Piers Morgan
You might not like you can do it, Russell. These are basic facts. You were an atheist. You then became a Buddhist.
- [93:20]
Russell Brand
No.
- [93:20]
Piers Morgan
Now you're a Christian.
- [93:21]
Russell Brand
Good. They're not basic facts. They're information being tailored and collated.
- [93:25]
Piers Morgan
Is it not true?
- [93:25]
Russell Brand
Yeah. You are creating, attempting to create, using a collage of language.
- [93:30]
Piers Morgan
You're the one who told us you're supposed. You were. You told us you were an atheist.
- [93:35]
Russell Brand
Israel's got the right to protect itself.
- [93:36]
Piers Morgan
Yeah.
- [93:37]
Russell Brand
This is a genocide. Don't take that Covid shot. Take the COVID shot. Listen.
- [93:42]
Piers Morgan
But I'm happy to talk about that. You're not.
- [93:44]
Russell Brand
I'm happy to talk about anything, but I would prefer to talk about that.
- [93:46]
Piers Morgan
But I only know you're an atheist.
- [93:48]
Russell Brand
But I would prefer to talk about something, Piers. Why something?
- [93:51]
Piers Morgan
We're talking about your profound belief in God and as a Christian.
- [93:54]
Russell Brand
No, we're not talking about my profound belief in God. We're talking about the actuality of God and we're talking about the fact that you have been doing water carrying for Satan. That's what we're talking about, Piers. Water carrying the fallenness in this world. The fallenness.
- [94:08]
Piers Morgan
I've been carrying water for Satan.
- [94:10]
Russell Brand
Satan is the epitomizing object of the realness of evil. That evil is not some abstract moral idea. Who's to say? I suppose it's a. And I'm trying not. I don't mean to be mean.
- [94:23]
Piers Morgan
The satanic.
- [94:26]
Russell Brand
It's the institutions of media power and how they interact and operate with government. You are. I suppose, one could argue your initial position in Covid. One could argue what went on with the mirror stuff. One could argue what went on, say, with this contentiousness around the terrifying and awful conflicts in the Middle east and. But more importantly, more importantly, right now, right now, that there's a chance for us to. Even when, like, I sort of take my own advice and more importantly bear Gryll's advice and think, right, just sit and chill. That you sort of revert to a kind of.
- [94:59]
Piers Morgan
He was an atheist.
- [95:00]
Russell Brand
He was a Buddhist. And I can't see that as a good faith inquiry. I see it as an attempt to generate an outcome and to create a sort of a kind of hysteria. Whether that's in this room with me or sort of more broadly among people like Piers Morgan, uncensored could be an opportunity to house, frame and present in a kind of graceful way important opinions. And I'm not suggesting that I've got any of them, but I happen to be in a sort of a really weird situation. In a way that's deeply similar and comparable to your own. You've sort of gone down the weird gushing chute of fame in a million different ways. Being close to dark, actual dark, nasty power come out the other side. And what I suppose I'm saying is, look, you know, yeah, I'm a happy to have a.
- [95:42]
Piers Morgan
It's.
- [95:42]
Russell Brand
Cause nothing means anything to you. It's like. That's what it feels like. A bit like what means something to you. You love your wife, you love your kids, you're willing to die for your country, where the UK is about to march teenagers into war, the United States is about to do it. And me, and you, like, you know me as well, maybe we are a couple of grifters, a couple of worthless, lousy grifters that will say whatever we have to say to stay on the Internet and make a few quid and flog a book. And oh, Meghan Markle, she's a bitch. Is that all right? Is that a bitch, Israel? Yeah, fuck it. Maybe that's all we are. But through him, not through you or me, we can be something great. And when I sit here answering questions about whether or not I vaccinate, my kids think, ah, no, not this. This isn't it, this isn't it. And there's a hair that has been bothering me for a long time. Thankfully it wasn't attached, otherwise that would have been grooming. And what would that be in the ape world? What I want to say to you is that I want to be better. I want to be better. And for me, the cost of that, who knows what that's going to be? You've alluded to it already. I want you to do it as well. I know you can do it. I want you to be a meaningful participant. I feel that there's some reason that you're in this world and it's not to generate conflict and it's not to generate. It's to participate in the creation of truth. That was always your destiny and I want you to do it.
- [96:50]
Piers Morgan
Is your book going to generate profit?
- [96:52]
Russell Brand
Actually, I've already decided and believe me, I don't want to do this. But. No, but if it does make any money, and the chances of that are slim in this crazy world, that I will find a way. In fact, me and you, if you. I mean, like, you know, I want to give it to something that means something. I've seen it all. I've not seen it all, but I've seen enough. I've seen a lot.
- [97:11]
Piers Morgan
It's Tucker Carlson's company's doing it right.
- [97:13]
Russell Brand
Tucker CarlsonBooks.com Tucker Carlson Books is an imprint of the company Skyhorse, which are a company that will publish stuff of cancel people.
- [97:21]
Piers Morgan
Yeah. How to become a Christian in Seven Days is on sale. TuckerCarlsonBooks.com I think it's good to be
- [97:27]
Russell Brand
also passive like that, you know, like sort of like in sort of say neutrality. Yeah. I'm just. It's my job to be a journalist. It's good in a way.
- [97:32]
Piers Morgan
You never claim to be neutral. I know what you're talking about. What have you got that wrong from? I'm probably the least neutral person on the airwaves in the world. Well, I suppose literally my whole reputation is of being highly opinionated. Where have you got this idea that I want to be neutral?
- [97:44]
Russell Brand
I reckon it's from like such totally
- [97:47]
Piers Morgan
bizarre misreading, lack of conviction, really.
- [97:50]
Russell Brand
That's what I feel. Yeah.
- [97:51]
Piers Morgan
You don't think I have any convictions?
- [97:52]
Russell Brand
That's what I'm feeling. I feel that you're a beautiful person and I want to be in a position where. Look, man, think of the ones of this I've done. I've done Paxman, I've done that other little one with the earring. I've done all. I've been around all these people, mate, and all I want is to feel like in the midst of some terrible madness in my own life which definitely needs to be resolved. And I pray to God that there is a resolution of this that we can look at and go, oh, my God, that's miraculous that that happened.
- [98:17]
Piers Morgan
What if you get convicted and you go to prison and it's not very nice? No, not that until being ranked, you'll
- [98:24]
Russell Brand
have to choose a gang. Not that there will be the white supremacists, the Muslims. What will you do? Join the white supremacists one day and then grip for cigarettes with the Muslims
- [98:32]
Piers Morgan
on the next day. How will you deal with the fact that in that moment God has felt that's the right thing to happen to you then?
- [98:38]
Russell Brand
Like, you know, drink the cup, man. Drink the cup. That's the. That's the deal we've got. That's the deal we've got, Piers. And how will you feel on your judgment day? How will you feel on your judgment day? Because it's outside of time, it's here now and it's forever meaning that all of us have a calling to be wonderful and it's bigger than even important, serious things where evidently people have been hurt and big Trials and big consequences for, you know.
- [99:04]
Piers Morgan
Have you been surprised? I've been through a few ups and downs, as you pointed out.
- [99:09]
Russell Brand
It's also like. Also, it's a bit like there's kind of a dementia. Like, you know, have you ever spoke to someone with Alzheimer's and they'll just suddenly sort of. The way that they talk is correct. I've been through some ups and downs.
- [99:18]
Piers Morgan
Well, no, there's a reason I'm asking the question. When people go through ups and downs, I. In my experiences, surprising people reach out to support you and also. What's that body language and other people that you would have expected to don't. Have you had that?
- [99:34]
Russell Brand
Oh, man. Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's sort of an unbelievable kind of churn and change of your life. That's sort of. Well, it's a bit like you saying, if you're convicted and you're going to jail, knowing in your heart of hearts that you're not a rapist, how will you deal with that? God wanted that for you. And it's like, wow, this is reality. I'm not scared of the truth. I love it. It's all that's real by definition. So what is it like when, you know, you lose touch with that person? That person steps up. It's like, oh, that was always true.
- [100:06]
Piers Morgan
Who's disappointed?
- [100:07]
Russell Brand
You know, Give us the top fives. Top fives.
- [100:10]
Piers Morgan
Who's been most disappointing to you?
- [100:12]
Russell Brand
No one disappoints me.
- [100:14]
Piers Morgan
Come on.
- [100:15]
Russell Brand
I'm not doing your mad little game of reducing everything to trivia and tittle tattle because some things, believe it or not, Piers, are not trivia and tittle tattle. In fact, there's an argument for the direct contrary, that none of it is trivia and teal tattle. That you're continually in the moment interfacing with a really beautiful reality that has a veil laying across it. And all of us are sort of tangled and interacting with the veil. Oh, man. I just sort of thought Terry Wogan and David Icke, 1987 vibes. I don't want to do that stuff. I don't think that I'm especially important or that I have any unique or novel insights. I've just had a really unusual life and I've written this book. And the key thing about this book is becoming Christian is a consolidation of all the mad musings of a mind that was embedded in and wedded to the culture. I thought, wouldn't it be great to be famous? Wouldn't it be great to marry a pop star. Wouldn't it be great if you could sleep with endless women whenever you wanted to? Consensually, one might say, given the nature of this current appearance. But at the end of it all, even though obviously you have to find God to get any of you that are clean and sober from drugs and alcohol and you have to get clean, you have to find God or some kind of God to even cope with life without your former God. That was drugs and alcohol. Coming to Christ is like you're exposed to a deep reality that is beautiful and available. And so it's not like always. Good, because sometimes still, like this morning, I was worried about coming on Piers Morgan. I'm even a bit worried now. I'm doing this on Piers Morgan. Will they use it? It's uncensored, so I suppose every word
- [101:37]
Piers Morgan
we've said will appear.
- [101:38]
Russell Brand
Even the sort of long pause on
- [101:39]
Piers Morgan
Isaiah that will all appear without. No, no, everything will appear. Exactly. That's my promise to you now. There will not be a single second cut.
- [101:48]
Russell Brand
What do you think your duty is here? Not with me as a.
- [101:51]
Piers Morgan
Me just to ask you questions.
- [101:52]
Russell Brand
No, not with me as a guest. That's sort of largely irrelevant. I mean you as Piers Morgan.
- [101:57]
Piers Morgan
I think I have a platform that is now pretty big, pretty global, and my job is to take complex issues, get people with strong opinions and hopefully some brain power who have strong opinions that don't agree with each other, to debate these things or to have one on one interviews with people like you where I try and just be. I said to you before we came in here, you asked me, you know, what, what, what do you want to get out of this? I said, I just want to be fair to you. Right. I don't think I've been unfair.
- [102:21]
Russell Brand
No, no, I don't think.
- [102:22]
Piers Morgan
What I've been struck by is that you've, I think underneath the calm exterior you've tried to exude, quite understandably, I think inside you there's a lot of tension, a lot of stress. You know how big this moment is coming in October. I've known you 20 years. Like I said, we're not like friends, but I've known you and I've always got on well with you. Make. No, I'm not one of these people that suddenly pretends I always knew and always hated you. I don't know. Right. I don't know. I don't look at you and think you are this or you are that. I would prefer to let a jury work that out based on the Evidence and you to be judged fairly by the evidence.
- [103:00]
Russell Brand
That is what should happen to anyone. That's irrelevant individuals around.
- [103:03]
Piers Morgan
I absolutely believe in that.
- [103:04]
Russell Brand
Of course, of course I know that you do. I don't think you're any.
- [103:08]
Piers Morgan
I'm really not trying to trap you at all.
- [103:10]
Russell Brand
I do. I don't feel that. I don't feel that you're trying to trap you.
- [103:12]
Piers Morgan
When people watch this, I doubt anyone thinking, God, Morgan's trying to trap him. I'm not. I'm just asking you basic questions which often you react like Vesuvius to which I find weird. The only reason, for example, for example, the only reason I know that you were an atheist and a Buddhist is because you proudly told everybody.
- [103:28]
Russell Brand
No, I want to try and explain it because it might be. Maybe it'll be very valuable. I took drugs real young, so I knew that there was a God. I rejected the idea of the Christian church for all the reasons anybody would. Then I got involved in trying to understand because I knew there was something else. And indeed what's amazing about coming to Christ is finding it's there already. And there's something so analogous to just anyone's personal journey. The thing that you're looking for is already here. He's waiting for you, in fact, you, he's running towards you. And it's such a sort of an obvious and traditional and well cited story, the story of the prodigal son, that it feels hacky to say it. And it's not that I feel like you're trying to trap me. I feel that you've, you remain an avatar of something mercurial and untrustworthy in the media space that by making claims like I'm, you know, housing debate or challenging or whatever, the tendency and trend is generally towards the interests of sets of power that benefit from having you there. In the same way that Rupert Murdoch is not gonna advocate for someone that's like gonna go, hey, these medium monopolies should have as much influence. They're messing with the miners strike or they're putting factoring powerfully.
- [104:43]
Piers Morgan
Oddly, Fox News, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, of course regularly has had you on as a guest. Right? So I'm not like, listen, and I would ask you a difficult question if you feel that way about Rupert Murdoch, who I personally have enormous time and respect for and a lot of gratitude for what he's done for my career. And I think he's a great, great media tycoon. But regardless of that, if you have such strong views about his terrible power and so on. Why do you go on his network, Fox News?
- [105:10]
Russell Brand
Well, it's not like I'm always, you're helping him.
- [105:13]
Piers Morgan
You're helping him get ratings and advertising. Some people would say, russell, it's hypocrisy that you do that. But people, the more principled stance would be, I'm not going to do Fox.
- [105:23]
Russell Brand
What am I trying to say? What am I trying to say? It's like your MO is to be able to desecrate and denigrate kind of anything I want to want to ask you. What do you think is pure? What do you think is beautiful? Who do you think you can rely on? How are we going to resolve this endless, knotted, tangled conflict that's unfolding both, both geopolitically and domestically almost everywhere? What do you feel your contribution could
- [105:54]
Piers Morgan
be to be at the center of global debate about it and hopefully get to the truth and hopefully concentrate people's minds on making the right decisions.
- [106:01]
Russell Brand
Concentrate their minds on making the right decisions. That's really good.
- [106:04]
Piers Morgan
Yeah. Challenging authority.
- [106:05]
Russell Brand
What is the right decision?
- [106:07]
Piers Morgan
For example, I've been friends with Donald Trump 20 years, but I've been very challenging and critical about the Iran war, for example. Right. As an example. I see that as my role as a journalist notwithstanding. We've been friends a long time. When I see him do things I don't agree with or don't understand, I call him out on it more. Journalists should be fair minded. But I also praise Trump when he does things I agree with. I'm willing to be both things. There are very few people out in my world, in the media who are prepared to be, in my view, intellectually honest.
- [106:38]
Russell Brand
What do you mean by that and why would that be?
- [106:40]
Piers Morgan
For example, I don't think anyone who is intellectually honest can say they know what's happening in the Iran war right now with any confidence. People who talk with absolute certainty and confidence about it, they're not being intellectually honest. Cause clearly it's extremely chaotic and unpredictable and no one can speak with any confidence about what's going to happen. That's the intellectually honest position.
- [107:01]
Russell Brand
All right, got it. Would you apply that to various areas of complexity, even if they're not the opposite?
- [107:09]
Piers Morgan
You keep mentioning Israel, Gaza. Somehow I should be embarrassed about my evolution on that story. But my position was very clear after the appalling terror attack by Hamas on October 7, where 1200 Israelis were killed, 7000 more were wounded. Absolutely. Israel didn't just have a right to defend its people, but to had a moral duty to do it. And then as it went on, I felt the scale of their response became utterly disproportionate. And I feel that very strongly now. That's my position, by the way. A lot of people agree with me. So I don't think it's an unusual evolution on that story. Yes, but if I asked you, for example, are Hamas a terrorist organization and was what they did that day an act of terrorism, what would you say?
- [107:54]
Russell Brand
This is where we get, I think, to an important point. What would you say is that? What I would say is, Piers, do you not recognize perhaps because of your stated aim to be at the heart of global debate, that actually it's a conflict generating dynamic.
- [108:10]
Piers Morgan
And whilst we're talking about a conflict literally where people are dying, of course,
- [108:16]
Russell Brand
naturally, but we're also talking about a more diffuse conflict that's around it that's also very heated and very, very charged. And I wonder if we as people with a degree of eloquence and access to an audience, instead of being participants in what one would have to call the problem and therefore compounding it, might begin to talk about solutions, whether those are spiritual solutions.
- [108:42]
Piers Morgan
You have to deal with reality when you see it. What happened on October 7 was an act of grotesque terrorism. Yes, but do you agree?
- [108:50]
Russell Brand
I have such. Do you know, I saw Ben Shapiro do something rather wonderful.
- [108:54]
Piers Morgan
Was it an act of terrorist.
- [108:55]
Russell Brand
What Ben Shapiro did that was very smart, was he said, I'm an orthodox Jew. I wear the hat and everything. So do I agree with gay marriage as an orthodox Jew or, you know, conventional Jew or whatever type of Jew Ben Shapiro is? He said, no. Like, this is my belief. This is my belief. Right. So, like, while dear old Russell Brand might be a vegan one minute and a carnivore the next and a Christian one minute. West out.
- [109:18]
Piers Morgan
Hey, we've got a rap, by the
- [109:19]
Russell Brand
way, so still support the house.
- [109:20]
Piers Morgan
We're running out of time. But finish your point.
- [109:22]
Russell Brand
My point is that my sense of what is right and wrong is taken from scripture. And my sense of how we should treat one another as individuals is guided by that. And my sense of what should happen on a global stage is completely guided by that. And it's one of submission and surrender.
- [109:38]
Piers Morgan
So was it an anti terrorism.
- [109:40]
Russell Brand
I really. Well, is it. Think of the questions you could ask about that.
- [109:44]
Piers Morgan
I'm just asking a basic question about.
- [109:46]
Russell Brand
It's not a basic question about how mastered that day. Do you know what we've learned? There are no basic questions anymore.
- [109:50]
Piers Morgan
There are. That's the problem about being intellectually dishonest is that when you have an act of obvious grotesque terrorism, you just say what it is. You don't. You don't think, how's that going to play to my older. How's that going to spin out on social media? You just say, when 1200 people are massacred like that, then it's a grotesque act of terrorism. When babies are kidnapped, when the Holocaust.
- [110:11]
Russell Brand
No, you don't. You look at how it is a grotesque terrorism, the potential alternative narratives, and
- [110:16]
Piers Morgan
you try to say you've answered it by not answering.
- [110:19]
Russell Brand
No, I. Well, I.
- [110:20]
Piers Morgan
You have, haven't you?
- [110:23]
Russell Brand
It's wrong to kill people. Okay, Thou shall not kill.
- [110:26]
Piers Morgan
Let's end on that.
- [110:27]
Russell Brand
That's in the Old Testament.
- [110:28]
Piers Morgan
Russell Bryan how to become a Christian in seven days may take 50 years of sin and serious fuck ups just to get started. Yeah, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
- [110:40]
Russell Brand
Yeah, I do as well. I do as well.
- [110:44]
Piers Morgan
Here's Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.
- [111:15]
Russell Brand
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Piers Morgan
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Russell Brand
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