Mom Who Sent F-Slur Texts 'Could Face 10 Years' Jail' In UK | Interview + Debate Feat Andrew Wilson

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Piers Morgan Uncensored – “Mom Who Sent F-Slur Texts 'Could Face 10 Years' Jail' In UK”

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Piers Morgan
Guests: Elizabeth Kinney, Brendan O’Neill, Lewis Oakley, Mark Lamont Hill, Andrew Sullivan, Andrew Wilson

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Overview

The episode investigates the controversial conviction of Elizabeth Kinney, a UK mother of four, for sending text messages containing the homophobic "F-slur" after being physically assaulted. Through Elizabeth's firsthand account and panel debate, the show questions UK free speech laws, the appropriateness of hate crime sentencing, and broader implications for civil liberties. The panel includes journalists, activists, and commentators with varied views on hate speech, intent, and societal harm.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elizabeth Kinney’s Arrest and Conviction

([03:14–16:41])

• Incident Recap:

  • Elizabeth was assaulted by a male acquaintance after a conflict involving jealousy over her ex-partner.
  • In a five-minute period, while emotionally distressed and suffering a head injury, she sent text messages (including the F-slur) to another woman involved, sharing photos of her injuries.

• Police Response:

  • Eleven police officers entered her home while she was in the bath to arrest her for "malicious communications" and "hate crime" ([05:18–06:47]).
  • She describes feeling violated, shocked, and traumatized, highlighting the disproportionate nature of the response:

    “It was very, very frightening. I've had nightmares and... keep cameras on my house. It's not even the public you need to be scared of these days, it's the police.” — Elizabeth Kinney, [12:05]

• Intent & Local Usage:

  • Elizabeth contends the F-slur is locally used to mean "a weak person" rather than a comment on sexuality:

    “Where we live in our context...it just means like...a weak person.” — Elizabeth Kinney, [07:37]

  • She denies any homophobic intent and states her social circle includes gay friends and colleagues who support her ([07:29–10:04]).

• Judicial Process & Sentencing:

  • Pleaded guilty on legal advice, despite no criminal record, receiving a 12-month community order, 72 hours of unpaid work, 10 rehabilitation days, and paying £364 in costs ([13:13–13:53]).
  • She was warned she could face "five to ten years" imprisonment due to hate crime legislation ([12:24–12:31]).

• Community Reaction:

  • Local community and employers expressed support.

    "I've not heard one bad word said about this whole...everyone's just as disgusted as I am how far it's gone." — Elizabeth Kinney, [10:28]

2. Panel Reactions: Free Speech & Hate Crime Law

Brendan O’Neill – Journalist & Author

([17:11–18:03], [32:05–33:33])

• Decries the case as “obscene” and “Orwellian”: criminalizing private speech sets a dangerous precedent.

  “If the state can pry on our private conversations...that really does take us into Orwellian territory.” — Brendan O'Neill, [17:50]

• Censorship itself infantilizes minorities, undermining civil rights progress.

Lewis Oakley – Bisexual Activist/Podcaster

([18:03–19:56], [33:36–35:47])

• Affirms harm caused by the F-slur, especially to youth:

  “It’s used to demean people and say…gay people are…less manly…and that’s what’s inferred by it.” — Lewis Oakley, [18:18]

• Stresses historical context in UK law: the need to proactively protect marginalized groups given recent law changes.
• Argues intent may not matter: even if used against a straight man, the insult lies in equating “gay” with inferiority.
• Defends preventative legal intervention, equating hate speech law to public health:

  “If you can stop people hating on people for their individual identity...you stop dehumanization that leads to violence.” — Lewis Oakley, [34:28]

Andrew Sullivan – Journalist

([21:02–22:55], [38:51–43:42])

• Clarifies that slurs can remain harmful regardless of intent or context, citing US locker rooms and banter:

  “Something can be a homophobic slur, even if a person doesn’t realize that’s what they’re doing.” — Andrew Sullivan, [21:03]

• However, he rejects criminalization, emphasizing the First Amendment in the US and arguing against police/state surveillance of speech:

  “I deplore hate speech…But I could be the worst piece of human garbage…doesn’t mean I should get arrested.” — Andrew Sullivan, [22:19]

• Argues the distinction between “slur” and “political criticism” (e.g., “Nazi”) is whether it attacks identity versus behavior/belief ([40:27–43:42]).

Mark Lamont Hill – Commentator

([25:16–28:24], [43:47–46:46])

• Sarcastically critiques UK as a “free nation,” claiming this kind of prosecution means it isn’t.

  “Some country you got there...that’s her business, you can say what you want. You’re supposed to, at least in free nations.” — Mark Lamont Hill, [25:28]

• Suggests attempts at social censorship generate backlash; the more you prohibit words, the more taboo, the more appealing their use:

  “It literally gives them incentive to say it more.” — Mark Lamont Hill, [29:35]

• Draws a parallel between government censorship and coordinated “deplatforming” or “debanking” by progressives in the private sector.

Andrew Wilson – Host of The Crucible

([22:55–24:13])

• Recaps Tucker Carlson’s original claim and confirms the case through Piers’ research:

  “Regardless, the idea that she could use that word in a text message and the next thing…she’s having a bath, naked…absolutely extraordinary, isn’t it?” — Piers Morgan, [24:07]

3. Debates on Intent, Context, and Proportionality

• Intent vs. Effect:

  • Oakley and Sullivan argue that intent does not erase harm: context can’t absolve the use of a slur if the social effect is to demean.
  • Others, especially Mark Lamont Hill, say context is everything: a word can be friendly “banter” or genuinely harmful, and prosecution should not occur absent clear intent to incite violence or discrimination.

• Comparison with the "N-word" and Political Epithets:

  • Piers and Sullivan debate if there’s a double standard—why slurs like “Nazi” aren’t prosecuted, but the F-slur is ([35:16–43:42]).
  • Sullivan distinguishes a slur against identity from attacks on political ideology or behavior.

• Police Priorities and the Broader Social Impact:

  • O’Neill questions the cost/benefit of 12,000 annual UK arrests for “offensive communications” ([31:14–32:05]).
  • Oakley argues that hate speech laws serve as a necessary corrective to historic harms but acknowledges that law enforcement resources are finite.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was in the bath…They opened the door themselves and just came in.” — Elizabeth Kinney, [05:18]
• “I had nightmares and…keep cameras on my house…It's not even the public you need to be scared of these days, it's the police.” — Elizabeth Kinney, [12:05]
• “If the state can pry on our private conversations… that really does take us into Orwellian territory.” — Brendan O’Neill, [17:50]
• “[The word] is used to demean people…say that, you know, gay people are…less manly.” — Lewis Oakley, [18:18]
• “You shouldn’t do it. But I could be the worst piece of human garbage…doesn’t mean I should get arrested for it.” — Andrew Sullivan, [22:36]
• “Who cares if this woman did, didn’t care? Who cares if she was like… I am homophobic… That’s her business. You can say what you want. You’re supposed to in free nations.” — Mark Lamont Hill, [25:28]
• “Censorship infantilizes [minorities]...says you are such a weak part of society that we need to...protect you from offensive words…That is a reversal of the great gains of the civil rights era.” — Brendan O’Neill, [33:08]
• “The law has had a real hand in causing stigma…and it did not disappear in 20 something years. So it’s right the law steps in and says, you know what…we’re going to step in and protect you.” — Lewis Oakley, [34:28]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Elizabeth Kinney's story: [03:14–16:41]
• Panel initial reactions: [17:11–19:56]
• Debate on context, intent, and use of slurs: [21:02–29:33]
• Debate on “Nazi” comparison and law: [35:16–43:42]
• Broader debate on UK speech laws, arrests, and civil liberties: [31:14–33:33], [34:28–36:52]
• Closing exchanges & final thoughts: [44:00–46:47]

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Conclusion & Tone

The episode conveys outrage and disbelief at the heavy-handed legal response to private speech, while also highlighting why slurs remain deeply hurtful to minority communities. The tone oscillates between incredulity (from Piers and O’Neill), earnest concern (Oakley, Sullivan), and brash iconoclasm (Mark Lamont Hill). The panel demonstrates how free speech, hate crime law, and intent versus harm remain fiercely contested and culturally fraught—to the point where even discussing a slur sanitizes and divides opinion on what constitutes justice, harm, or liberty.

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For further engagement, listeners are encouraged to follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on YouTube, X, TikTok, and Instagram.

Transcript

[Elizabeth Kinney]

My name is Percy Jackson. Getting in trouble is like breathing for me.

[Andrew Sullivan]

The hit series returns to Disney and Hulu. The danger the camp is under is greater than you can possibly imagine.

[Piers Morgan]

For the key to our survival, three of you must quest to the Sea of Monsters.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Let's go do the impossible.

I'm not gonna let some stupid monsters.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Stand in my way.

[Piers Morgan]

Percy Jackson and the Olympians. New season now on Disney and Hulu. Learn [e-mail] whatson 11 police officers turned up. Yeah, they basically said you had committed a hate crime by using that F word in a private text message.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I was in also shock.

[Brendan O'Neill]

If the state can pry on our private conversations, that really does take us into Orwellian territory.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

You don't have a free nation there. Who cares if she was like, you know what? I am homophobic. And I said it because I'm homophobic. That's her business. You can say what you want.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Something can be a homophobic slur, even if a person doesn't realize that that's what they're doing.

[Piers Morgan]

Andrew, would you use that word?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Sure. You use it all the time. It's one of the best ways to describe friends. Right.

[Brendan O'Neill]

Any minute now, we are going to see the annual controversy about the Pogues great song Fairy Tale of New York, which has the famous lyric, you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap lousy.

[Piers Morgan]

The Oxford English Dictionary is just named rage bait as its word of the year. They define it as content deliberately designed and to elicit outrage by being frustrating, provocative, or offensive. I thought it was only appropriate to mention that story, given the hullabaloo over my polite reticence to use the F word. And no, as you're probably well aware, it's not that F word.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Would you say the word faggot on camera?

[Piers Morgan]

No.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Why?

[Lewis Oakley]

Because I.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You don't want to get arrested, do you?

[Piers Morgan]

Doesn't want to be arrested because it's so harmful to people. Is that like gay bashing?

[Lewis Oakley]

What's wrong with that?

[Piers Morgan]

Actually, my whole issue with the whole trans debate, for example, is you don't need to slide into actually saying derogatory stuff about trans people to make the point that women's rights should be protected. You don't need to. Well, I agree. So. So what? I don't believe.

[Andrew Sullivan]

But it's a magic word.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't believe in needlessly sneering.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I'm not smearing anybody. I just think.

[Piers Morgan]

Would you use that word, faggot? Yeah, I just did. Would you fag it?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Faggot?

[Piers Morgan]

Faggot. Okay, but why? And I'm using it.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Because you're not allowed to.

[Lewis Oakley]

Because you're allowed to.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Go ahead.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't want to say I love gay people. Faggot. I'm allowed to. I just choose not to. Well, we'll talk about the F word again shortly with my panel, who are standing by. But Tucker Carlson's claim that I could be arrested for saying it was based on a real story he'd read in the Daily Mail. A nursing home worker had been arrested and convicted, he said, for using that word in text messages about a man she claimed had assaulted her. As I said in the interview, it sounded utterly ridiculous, ladies. And a string of examples of an assault on free speech in the uk. But I hadn't actually read the story and I said I'd look into it afterwards. That's exactly what I did. And I'm pleased to say that Elizabeth Kinney, the mother of four who was convicted over her text messages, joins me in the studio now. Elizabeth, thank you for coming in and joining us today for this debate. Just first of all, just to clear up exactly what happened to you, explain to me and the viewers what went down.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I was assaulted by a male acquaintance.

[Piers Morgan]

Physically or sexually?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Physically, physically, physically. It wasn't my ex partner. It was a friend, like a group of friends, the female acquaintance that basically she basically was getting jealous over me because she started seeing my ex partner. So she was trying to cause trouble for me, which ended up resulting in me getting attacked. After that, obviously I went to the hospital and I sent her messages and pictures of my injuries just to prove like, what basically what she'd caused. And obviously I was very upset at the time. I'd had a, like, inflammation on my brain. I had a skull fracture which made me not really feel like myself at the time. I was very upset and I was very angry with what had happened to me, which made me like, say, her messages that I really wouldn't have said.

[Piers Morgan]

So you sent her a load of messages. I mean, would you categorize them as abusive? Highly abusive.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

It was more just to point to the fact that what had happened to me, I only just sent her pictures of my injuries and obviously said, like, why would you cause this much trouble for me and stuff and make up lies which now resulted in me being attacked.

[Piers Morgan]

And she then reported you?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

For what she said were harassing messages.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah, I only, it was a five minute period of time when I just.

[Piers Morgan]

How did you feel when the police contacted you?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Well, I was shocked. I didn't expect that. I mean.

[Piers Morgan]

Cause these are private text messages.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Throughout my life, I've had messages with my friends and we've fallen out and we've said things that aren't very nice to each other, but you would never really expect that to go any further than that.

[Piers Morgan]

I've heard 11 police officers turned up.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, that's completely ridiculous.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah. I'd left my front door open. I was waiting for my dad to come to the house. I was actually in the bath at 11. They opened the door themselves and just came in and came in.

[Piers Morgan]

And you were in the bath?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

What do they say to you?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Well, I heard my name, which was one female out of the lot of.

[Piers Morgan]

Them, 10 male officers. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

And then I heard my name and I thought, oh, it might be my sister. Because it didn't sound like someone who was. Because obviously I was upstairs in the bath, and then. Then they just come up the stairs and they didn't give me any privacy or anything, like I.

[Piers Morgan]

You were naked?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yes.

[Piers Morgan]

How did that make you feel?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Disgusted and really upset. I was crying my eyes out.

[Piers Morgan]

And what did they say to you? What did they say they were there for?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Well, I was just asking them, can they just leave the female officer and can they please go downstairs? As obviously I was upset and I had no clothes on and he kind of wanted to watch me get changed, and I was very upset about that. In the end, they did send the males down the stairs and the female officer sat with me. 1. I was crying my eyes. I was really upset. And then I said, well, what are yous even here for? Because I was shocked. I was in utter shock. And she said, for malicious communications. Hate crime and malicious communications. And I said, what for? And she obviously. They said, we'll discuss that when we get to the. Basically to the police station.

[Piers Morgan]

So you go to the station, and then they outline that it's these messages you sent to this a friend that you've had this argument with.

All connected to the fact that you yourself, as you say, have been assaulted.

I'm not gonna get into that so much as one of the more inflammatory things about this whole story, which Tucker Carlson picked up on, was in the course of these text messages, you use the F word. We've already said what that word is. He repeated it many times. I choose not to say it. You can do what you like, but that word. Did you intend it in the messages to be a derogatory, homophobic slur?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Absolutely.

[Piers Morgan]

Because that is the alleged crime is that you were promoting hate towards gay people by using that word.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

First of all, a lot of my friends are gay. I have got. I am not homophobic in any way, shape or form. But the word in question is a word that. In our town, where we live, we associate that word with somebody who. Well, mainly males who hurt females. Like, it's never a word for a sexuality. It's always a word where we live in our context, as in like basically a weak person. For instance, my brother's best friend got sent off the pitch in football last week. Cause one of the guys fell over and, you know, he called him that name, but it was just a joke. But he got sent off the pitch because. But in our context, like, it just means like.

[Piers Morgan]

And you got a heavier. I mean, in the end, you pleaded guilty. First of all, why did you plead guilty?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

My solicitor told me to.

[Piers Morgan]

Right.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

And I've never been into trouble before and I was really concerned about.

[Piers Morgan]

You had no criminal record.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

No.

[Piers Morgan]

Because the malicious communications offenses, which is under which you were prosecuted, such as sending grossly offensive messages, can receive a hate crime sentence uplift if motivated by hostility towards a protected characteristic like race, religion, sexual orientation or disability. So you got an uplifted sentence. They basically said you had committed a hate crime by using that F word. Which, given that you had no intent to be homophobic with it for the reasons you've outlined, just seems preposterous in a private text message to somebody.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I didn't even say to the person.

[Piers Morgan]

Who you were angry with because you had been assaulted.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yes.

[Piers Morgan]

Has anything happened about the assault?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

When I was in the hospital, the police were called by the doctors and nurses and everyone in question was. Were arrested at that given point.

Then I end up getting arrested a week after that.

[Piers Morgan]

And what's happened with the.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

No one ever came back to me to discuss that. No one wanted statements from me. They were just obviously more. It seemed like they were.

[Piers Morgan]

There's been no prosecution. So the fact you were assaulted was deemed to be less serious, it would appear, than the fact you'd use this F word in communication. Private communication with this woman you'd had a falling out with?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

What do you feel about that?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Very, very disheartened and upset.

It's destroyed me character as a person. I've been a care assistant since I was 17 and I want to be a nurse. I like helping people. I want to save people's lives. I have got a good character as obviously I'm still working in my post now. Me managers haven't let me go for the Reason being they know me as a person.

[Piers Morgan]

It's to buy you.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I've got. Everyone's got my back in this world.

[Piers Morgan]

What reaction have you had from the community?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Everyone's had me back and everyone's been so supportive. I mean, I've not heard one bad word said about this whole. That everyone's just as disgusted as I am how far it's gone.

[Piers Morgan]

I didn't even know it could be a crime to in a private message. Neither did I use language like that.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Neither did I.

[Piers Morgan]

What do you think it says about free speech in this country?

Last year, Instagram launched Teen Accounts, which default all teens into automatic protections for who can contact them and the content they can see. And we'll continue adding new safeguards for teens to help give parents peace of mind. Explore Teen Account's automatic protections and all of our ongoing [e-mail] teen accounts.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Well, it's not as heavy as it is in America, but I believe that.

[Piers Morgan]

Actually it's better in America. This would never have happened in America. Their First Amendment protects your right to be offensive if you want to be. I mean, you're not. You know, it's one thing if you came in and said, yeah, I said all these things and I stand by it, and I wanted to be homophobic, that's one thing. But you clearly, you had a. You know, you were angry because of what had happened to you. You were in a hospital getting treatment for injuries sustained in what you say was an attack. And I don't know obviously about that side of it, but I'll take your word for it. And then you have 11 police officers charging into your home as you're having a bath.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

It was very, very frightening. I probably, like, I've had nightmares and everything about it. And like, I'm. I've got cameras on my house and stuff. I keep them on and make sure the doors are always locked now, because it's not even the public that anyone needs to be scared of these days, it's the police.

[Piers Morgan]

Did you think you might go to prison for this?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

Did they warn you you might?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

Really?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah. Five to ten years.

[Piers Morgan]

That's what they said you may get?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah.

[Piers Morgan]

Cause that's the maximum sentence you could.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Have got for hate crime again.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, what were you feeling when you heard that?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I was devastated.

[Piers Morgan]

You've got kids.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I was devastated.

[Piers Morgan]

Four kids. You have?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yes.

[Piers Morgan]

How old are they?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

15, 12, nine and three.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, it would have been devastating.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

It was and it still is now, to be honest.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. I mean, you end up, you're pretty guilty. You got a sentence to a 12 month community order with requirements. You undertook 72 hours of unpaid work and 10 rehabilitation activity days. And you were ordered to pay £364 in cost, about $500. So you didn't go to prison in the end, which must have been a great relief.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Yeah, of course.

[Piers Morgan]

When you look back on the whole thing though, what do you feel about it?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

I feel upset. The fact that I feel like I'm scared to even. I'm even scared to say the word now. That's why I'm saying the word in question.

[Piers Morgan]

Because I think that was Tucker Carlson's point and the reason he kept saying. I've known Tucker a long time. He wasn't saying it to be homophobic. He was saying it to make the point that he was in England and he didn't care about whether somebody was gonna arrest him. He was suggesting that I didn't wanna say it cause I'm fearful of arrest. That wasn't the case. I don't like using that word, full stop.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Neither do I.

[Piers Morgan]

Because gay friends of mine say it's offensive to them, even though many of them use it. But it's the same argument as the N word for black people. Right. They use it amongst themselves to reclaim that word, as they put it. And I understand that argument. But if a white person uses it at them, it's obviously a disgusting racist slur. And I think we all know that. Right. What's extraordinary about this is I was talking to my team. None of us realized that using this particular word that got you into so much trouble in a text message could ever lead to a potential prison sentence in this country.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Neither did I. It was shocking. And I'm still shocked now if I'm honest. But obviously I just believe that we all need to be careful with.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, do we? So that's an interesting question about this. Do we need to be careful or do we need to fight back a bit about this? Is it right that you're sitting here too scared of saying that word even in the context of talking about what happened to you and, and not as a slur? You know, we live in a free democratic society. You should be able to say it in the context of what happened to you without fear of arrest, it seems to me. And yet I understand why you don't want to because you were told you might go to prison for five to 10 years.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Not just that, obviously it's not in my character. I did that when I, after The assault when I had a brain injury. And, like, you don't act like yourself. You act out of character when you've had an injury.

[Piers Morgan]

What did your gay friend say about this?

[Elizabeth Kinney]

And I've had some beautiful messages from one of my managers as well, saying that they know I am not homophobic, 100%. I am the most kindest, loveliest person and to not take any notice about what's been said about me and that everyone knows and they've all got my back and they're all on my side.

[Piers Morgan]

Did any of the police feel uncomfortable about this when they were.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

No. Nobody's even asked me, am I okay after the attack. Nobody.

[Piers Morgan]

No one's followed up on the attack at all. I just find that extraordinary.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

So do I. Especially in the courtroom when I got charged and the judges. Nobody. The judges could see the pictures, the messages that I sent with the injuries, which were quite bad. And still I wasn't asked, was I okay?

[Piers Morgan]

Absolutely extraordinary. Elizabeth, thank you for coming in.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

You're welcome.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm very sorry about what happened to you, not least because you're just being very honest. You said, you know, you had five minutes of rage because of what had happened to you. You lost your mind a bit, used some intemperate language. You clearly regret it. You wish you hadn't done it. But to go through all that in England in 2025 seems to me absolutely outrageous.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

It is.

[Piers Morgan]

I wish you luck with everyone.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Thank you.

[Piers Morgan]

And with your career. Thank you very much for coming in.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

Thank you.

[Piers Morgan]

For more on the Other F Word. Joining me on the panel are host of the Crucible, Andrew Wilson, author of the Basics, and host of the Bisexual Brunch Podcast, Lewis Oakley, host of Abette News, Mark Lamont Hill, and the author and chief political writer of Spiked, Brendan o'. Neill. Well, welcome to all of you. Brendan o', Neill, let me start with you. I just did this extraordinary interview with Elizabeth Kinney.

Which I know you guys have all listened to. What did you make of that? I mean, I could barely believe what I was hearing.

[Brendan O'Neill]

I think it's obscene. I mean, if what Elizabeth's saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, it sounds like a real double wrong has been done here. Firstly, there is the fact that someone was arrested for saying a word that should never happen, in my view, whatever word they use, even if they use it in public. But then, secondly, she was arrested for using a word word in a private communication. That is an outrage. Completely and utterly obscene. That really does take us into the territory of thought policing. If the state can pry on our private conversations, drag us into the dock for things that we say to friends or frenemies or enemies, whoever it might be, that really does take us into Orwellian territory where the government has the right to snoop on what we say to fellow citizens. I think that is outrageous.

[Piers Morgan]

Lewis Oakley. I mean, I just to start with, as a gay man, do you get offended?

[Lewis Oakley]

Bisexual.

[Piers Morgan]

My apologies. As a bisexual man, are you offended by the F word?

[Lewis Oakley]

Yeah, I think that it's definitely got connotations there that are offensive. I mean, it's used to demean people and say that, you know, gay people are, you know, subhuman, disgusting, less manly, and that's what's inferred by it. So when it's used as abuse for young kids, you know, like young 15 year olds that are being called this in the playground, yes, it holds meaning. It, you know, leads to mental health issues, it leads to people feeling that there is something wrong.

[Piers Morgan]

But it is not being used as a homophobic slur. In other words, it's not being targeted at a gay person. And you know, her explanation was that where she lives in the north of England. Well, no, Mark, I'll come to you. You might laugh, but I know there are parts of England where they would definitely not consider this to be a homophobic sleep. They would just do it as a bit of, as they would see it, quite harmless banter. Now we can argue about that, but it's different to say the N word over here, which everyone would have a clear idea about. I don't think that this F word is seen in quite the same context, hence why she used it here, but not in a way that could be remotely construed as homophobic. Which then begs the question, why has she been prosecuted for a hate crime prompting hate at gay people?

[Lewis Oakley]

Can I just say, I think that it's almost worse that he was straight, you know, because what she's doing, she's really angry in the moment, I totally get it. And she's thinking, how can I insult this man that has done this terrible thing to me? And by the way, like, you know, I hope he gets convicted too. How can I demean him? I know I'll call him gay because gay is so lower. Gay is so like, you know, anti masculine. And that's the whole point that that was the way she. There was thousand other words she could have used to describe it.

[Piers Morgan]

She said she's not homophobic and wasn't saying it as a gay slur.

[Lewis Oakley]

Okay, but so what's that? You want to say that people that use the N word to describe people aren't racist, it's just their banter between their friends?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, no, because I think there is a qualitative difference in severity of these words.

[Lewis Oakley]

I mean, so race is more important than sexuality?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, it's an interesting arguable point. I mean, Mark, look, I would never use personally that F word. I would certainly never use the N word privately or in public. There probably is a qualitative difference between the two. I would say most people might think that certainly in England. I can imagine a lot of people using it, playgrounds and stuff, and not intending it to be a homophobic slur, not even knowing it is. So it's not as clear cut as you might think it is. But regardless, as Brendan said, you know, regardless of whether you think it is or isn't, the idea that you communicate that word in a private conversation to someone via text message who you know, and the next thing, 11 police officers are charging into your house to arrest you. That can't be right, surely.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So you raised two points. The first one, where I disagreed with you wasn't whether or not people saw it as a homophobic slur. My point is something can be a homophobic slur or a racist slur or an anti Semitic slur or whatever, even if a person doesn't realize that that's what they're doing. In the United States. I've spent a lot of time in locker rooms as an athlete. I spent a lot of times in fraternity houses. I spent a lot of time just in my neighborhood. And that word was used a lot. And it was often used not against gay people, although it certainly was used against gay people. It was also used against ostensibly straight people, as my colleague just said, for the purpose of demeaning, for joking. Sometimes it wasn't even an intense joke. Sometimes it wasn't outrage. It was just a play. It was used ostensibly in a playful way, but the idea is if the best way to mock you or to tease you or to make you seem less like a man in a society where being a man is the height of humanity, is to call you gay.

[Piers Morgan]

But you'd never be arrested.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You're still.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, but hang on. You'd never be arrested in America for using that word because the First Amendment would protect you. So you could be offensive in America in that way without actually treading into criminal activity, because the First Amendment is there to protect that Very thing, actually. It protects all speech, including hate speech.

[Andrew Sullivan]

So that's the second piece of it. Right. I just wanted to address the idea of whether it's homophobic speech or not. But even if it's hate speech, let's say it rises to the level of hate speech. Regardless, I don't think that the surveillance state should be overseeing us to decide when and where we're making those hate speech, even though I deplore hate speech. And then I also don't think the carceral state should be criminalizing or intensifying criminal penalties for using it. So, yeah, it's awful to do. You shouldn't do it. But I could be the worst piece of human garbage on earth for using a word or a slur. It doesn't mean that I should get arrested for it. I think there's other ways to resolve that.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah. Andrew Wilson. You know, it's very interesting when Tucker jumped me with this because I wasn't aware of the case. So I was doing Tucker's show, we had a 90 minute chat about all sorts of things. The main premise of his conversation was that my country's gone for the dogs. I was defending it vigorously in some parts and agreeing with him in other parts, as I would America, by the way, good and bad, but two great countries. However, when he went on this rant about this, it took me by surprise. I did not say this F word because I thought I might be arrested. I wasn't aware of the story. I went and did some research and I discovered somebody had actually been arrested in my country for using that word in a text message. Having, she says, being beaten up by a guy, having treatment in hospital and texting somebody that she believed had been partly responsible for her getting the beating. And that beating has not been properly investigated. So I don't know enough about that part of it to determine how clear cut that all was. But regardless, the idea that she could use that word in a text message. And the next thing 11 police are banging on, not even banging in. They're coming in and she's having a bath, naked. Absolutely extraordinary, isn't it?

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[Mark Lamont Hill]

Well, it's actually, I'm not even surprised. So the idea here is I guess you could get essayed and if you call your assailant the quote f slur, you go to jail.

[Piers Morgan]

Right?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Some country you got there. Some country you got there. By the way, let's point this out that progressives have for years, as these guys say, you know, hey, we don't want to, you know, put in hate speech laws and have people arrested and this and that. They've been doing the same type of stuff for years. They do depersoning, debanking, de platforming, keeping people away from their cash. If you touch on any issues that they don't like, they've been doing that for years to conservatives. So they're doing the exact same thing that the government over there is doing. They're just using the private marketplace to do it. So what they do is they will go on these massive campaigns to de person a human being from society because they have wrong think or they say a word that makes somebody else upset. He's spaghetti, right? That's what they do. And the fact of the matter is, is like, who gives a shit? Who cares if this woman did, didn't care? Who cares if she was like, you know what? I am homophobic. And I said it because I'm homophobic. That's her business. You can say what you want. You're supposed to, at least in free nations. And that's not what you have there. And that was Tucker Carlson's point. You don't have a free nation there. You have out of interest, which is.

[Piers Morgan]

Out of interest. Andrew, would you use that word?

[Brendan O'Neill]

Sure.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

You use it all the time. It's one of the best ways to describe friends.

[Piers Morgan]

Would you use it? Would you use it on a show like this?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Meant to be. Look, it's not meant to be. Can I say it?

[Piers Morgan]

Would you say it? I mean, would you normally use a word?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Well, I wouldn't say it for the purposes, for the purposes of tos. But I mean, if I was allowed to, sure. It's one of my favorite words to say. There's nothing wrong with the word. What happens is this. This word is not even being used as a homophobic slur, and it hasn't since I was a kid. Okay? That's the truth. People call each other this all the time, literally, for fun, just because it's fun, you know, you, like, run into a buddy of yours. What's up? F. Slur. Right. You don't care. Eddie, you give me.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I don't think that's true, though.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

It is true.

[Piers Morgan]

No, I think if you. If you ask gay people, they will tell you it is often used in a derogatory way and offensive way intended to demean them, and it's done all the time. I don't think we can discuss that.

[Lewis Oakley]

Yeah, sure.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

But you know what? Everything. You can use any word as derogatory if you want to, or you can use words and they're not derogatory. It depends on the context. And we're social creatures. I'm tired of people acting like, socially, everybody's retarded. We know that there's context for words. And when you say in proper context, this word to buddies and people in this, you know, whatever. It's not a problem socially, and it never has been. And Mark might shake his head, but I bet you in high school he was calling half of his friends that word, and they were probably calling it to back. Why? Because it's funny. That's why it's funny.

[Andrew Sullivan]

So his.

Was I. No.

[Piers Morgan]

But you've never used any derogatory school at school about anyone, as a joke.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You're asking a different question now than. Okay, a different question. His question was, again, the answer to the first question is, no, I didn't use the F word in high school as he alleged. Second question is, have I ever used an offensive term? Absolutely, when I was a child. But as an adult, I like to think that I've grown beyond using the words that I used as a child. And I agree that social context matters, and I agree that we should always consider social context. We live in a society where gay people are still abused, where gay people are still slandered, where gay people are still physically assaulted, where gay people are marginalized. And that F word is used very often. It's often accompanied by harm. And so if we know that. I agree. When you walk up to your friend and give him a high five and use that word, you may not be attempting to. To smuggle in homophobia, I don't think you are. But what I'm saying is we're normalizing a word that still accompanies harm and still kind of normalizes what we do and how we treat, as a society, LGBTQI folk. And so I'm just saying, why don't we pick a different word that doesn't cause all this hullabaloo?

[Piers Morgan]

All right, the bigger issue, the problem.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Is because they're not as fun. And the reason is the more that you try to make these pushbacks, these social pushbacks, and tell people what they can and can't say, it makes them want to say it more. And you know what, Mark? That's what happens the second you start making social pushback and say, hey, this word you've been calling your friends, you guys have been joking around for years saying this stuff. You're not allowed to say it anymore because now somebody's gonna get too upset about it. It literally gives them incentive to say it more. That's what happens. That's how social context actually works.

[Andrew Sullivan]

That's not what I'm saying.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

If you guys wouldn't make a big deal out of it. If you guys wouldn't. Hang on, hang on, Mark. Almost done. If you guys wouldn't make a big deal out of it, we wouldn't have a big deal. Right? But you guys make the big deal out of it.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, let me bring in Brendan because. Well, hang on, Mark, I'll come back to you. The bigger issue, it seems to me here with the UK is that the Times newspaper recently revealed that police Officers are making 12,000 arrests a year under Section127 of the Communications act and Section 1 of the Malicious Communications Act. In other words, similar instances to this. That's 30 arrests a day over offensive posts on social media and other platforms. Thousands of people being detained and questioned for sending messages that, quote, cause annoyance, inconvenience, or anxiety to others via the Internet, telephone, or mail. There's been a 58% increase in these arrests since before the pandemic. I mean, this seems completely nuts to me. Joe Rogan said They've already arrested 12,000 people for social media posts. We got a clip of him talking about this.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

They've already arrested 12,000 people for social media posts.

[Elizabeth Kinney]

That's insane.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Above and beyond every other country. Way above Russia. Russia was like 400 last year. The UK is 12,000. Any criticism of immigration, any criticism of grooming gangs and people being raped, any talk about how horrible this is, they come visit you, it's like someone's trying to destroy England.

[Piers Morgan]

Now, I would say, Brendan, that's probably a mischaracterization. If you actually went over the 12,000 cases, you could probably see a lot of very offensive things in there. I don't know, but I'm surmising. It's not just criticizing an immigration policy that's causing the arrest, but in a country that's supposed to be one of the leaders of free speech historically in the world, this is pretty terrifying, isn't it? It's just Kafka stuff.

[Brendan O'Neill]

It's awful. It's like the Stasi. Older listeners and viewers will remember the German Democratic Republic and they had the Stasi that would literally listen in on private conversations, that would literally rent out the apartment above the apartment of some dodgy person and listen through the floor to make sure they weren't saying problematic things. We now have a similar system in the uk. People are being arrested and in some cases, punished for things they say. And, you know, it's now December, so any minute now, we are going to see the annual controversy about the Pogues. Great song, Fairy Tale of New York, which has the famous lyric, you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap, lousy beep. We're not allowed to say it, apparently, but that is a great song. That word is often bleeped out. And this is another issue about these insulting words. I actually think what's most insulting to gay people, ethnic minority people, all sorts of minority groups. What's most insulting is actually censorship, because censorship infantilizes them. Censorship says to them, you are such a weak part of society that we need to institute these laws and these rules to protect you from offensive words. It's actually a reversal of the great gains of the civil rights era when we have these kinds of rules that say we must protect these poor little dears from ever hearing an offensive term. So I think these words are actually. The power of these words is less worrying to me than the power of censorship to infantilize minority groups and punish people who want to express themselves.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, Lewis, as a poor little dear, would you like to respond?

[Lewis Oakley]

Well, yeah. I want to start with the numbers that you just talked about, because I think there is a point where we have to look at the reality of the modern world in which we live. Yes, we all want to see more convictions for rape and murder. Those things are very hard to prove. Whereas communication, we all communicate. 90% of it now is online.

[Piers Morgan]

But why should the police be policing speech that doesn't actually incite specific violence? Which is to me always the line so our law takes, you cannot cross, right? If I say to people that you live at a certain address, go round there and attack him, right, That's a clear incitement to violence against a specific individual. That's a criminal offense and you should be. I should be arrested for that. And there should be no issue of that being a free speech issue. But if I just hate you or want to say derogatory things about you or you do to me, that shouldn't be something that prohibits that precipitates 11 police turning up at the door.

[Lewis Oakley]

Well, two things. We have protected characteristics, right? We understand that in UK law, it was only 1967 in this country it stopped being illegal to be gay. It was only in 2003 that we got rid of things like Section 28. The law has had a real hand in causing stigma and discrimination against gay people that did not disappear in 20 something years. So it's right that the law steps in and says, you know what, we've had a hand in this, we're going to step in and protect you. Because it takes a preventative measure. Much like the NHS where it says, you know what, rather than treat you when you're sick, let's just prevent people from getting sick where we can. And it's the same thing here. Yes, the line is calling for violence, but if you can stop people hating on people for their individual identity, you can say, you're stupid, you're an idiot, you've done this wrong, whatever. But if it's targeted, if it's hate on you because of your race, is it okay because of your sexuality?

[Piers Morgan]

Why does nobody get arrested for calling Donald Trump a Nazi?

[Lewis Oakley]

Well, no, but you know what? The Nazi thing is interesting because they do think, not just interesting, it's probably.

[Piers Morgan]

The most egregious thing you could possibly call somebody is comparing him directly to Adolf Hitler who murdered 12 million people, who gassed 6 million Jews in concentration camps. Right? The idea that that is the Americans should bring his speechless. The idea that that is not an arrestable offense by comparison to using the F word against a gay person seems to me to be completely disproportionate.

[Lewis Oakley]

Well, you're absolutely right. But here's my thing. I think that the Nazi thing is an interesting thing because actually this proves that it's not a left or a right wing issue. Because actually, since the assassination of Charlie Kirk and those two attempts on Donald Trump's life, the right has been saying, watch your rhetoric. And they understand that whilst People aren't calling for violence against them. Speaking about them as Nazis is increasing the likeliness of. Of someone thinking, oh, my God, there's Nazis. I better get a gun and do something about it so they understand.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

They're not calling for their arrest, not.

[Lewis Oakley]

Calling for violence, but calling them worse starts that dehumanization that leads to violence.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Thank you for proving my point.

It's actually sick what you're saying, dude. What you're saying is that you're calling for people to be arrested for words that make you upset. That's sick. This is the country of John Locke. Hang on. This is the country of John Locke. This is the country that was supposed to. We adopted our constitution based on these principles of free speech, and you sick bastards are running around actually calling for the arrest of people because they say mean words.

[Lewis Oakley]

What the hell is wrong with you? This is the thing with free speech. You can still make your point. You can still make your point. What is it that you can't say? It's not my fault that people can't articulate themselves. Well, you can talk about crime statistics based on gender and sexuality and race, whatever you want.

[Piers Morgan]

You just can't use discriminatory. Why should a young care worker who's angry because she's been assaulted and is in hospital and is firing off her angry thoughts while she said she had a head injury and she uses this F word and because of that, she ends up with a conviction.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Well, hold on, Piers.

[Lewis Oakley]

We only got her side of the story. Reading the articles. It says that there was a series of abusive and homophobic messages. Those were then showed. The friend said they weren't homophobic. The friend that she said they weren't homophobic.

[Brendan O'Neill]

Hold on.

[Piers Morgan]

That's what. They weren't aimed at somebody for their sexuality.

[Lewis Oakley]

But so what if I go against the believer?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Can I jump them?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, okay, by comparison, if I use the N word against.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I haven't had a chance to respond to you.

[Piers Morgan]

Right. Or if I use the N word against Andrew, is that a racist slur against him? No.

[Lewis Oakley]

Well, no. So if I go up in the street and start.

[Piers Morgan]

There has to be some intention.

[Brendan O'Neill]

No.

[Lewis Oakley]

If I start going up to someone in the street and. And screaming anti Semitic things at them, and then it turns out they're not Jewish, the police aren't gonna be like, oh, well, you went to attack someone based on the.

[Piers Morgan]

Hang on. But that's my point, though. You can't be anti Semitic against somebody who's not Jewish.

[Lewis Oakley]

But we go back to. I think it's worse because the gaze was made to make him seem like less of a man, to sort of dehumanize him.

[Piers Morgan]

She didn't intend it like that. And I think intent does matter. Mark, you wanted to jump in about the Nazi thing. What was your observation about that? I don't think. By the way, I don't think people should be arrested for either. But it just seems to me extraordinary disparity between. You can just casually call somebody a Nazi and compare them to Adolf Hitler, and there's no accountability. But if you use the F word in a private text, you get arrested by 11 cops.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yeah, we're in, like, seven directions here, so I'm gonna just try and in, like, 10 seconds, deal with each one total. First, I agree that no one should be arrested for any of this speech. Let me say that. So this is not a defense of arresting people, because that keeps being said. I'm not defending that. I do think the Nazi peace is different.

But it doesn't mean that it should be responded to differently. For example, you may say to me, piers.

Because you're policing my speech around not using the F word or the N word or whatever, that you're a fascist. That would be a reasonable criticism. I think you'd be wrong, but I think that'd be a reasonable criticism.

[Brendan O'Neill]

But.

[Andrew Sullivan]

But you'd be saying that my behavior is actually similar to that of a particular thing. When people are looking at Donald Trump's behavior, it's not casual at all. They're saying the extraordinary and maybe historically unprecedented way that he is undermining American democracy is reminiscent of the Nazi regime. You may disagree with that. It could be wrong or right.

[Piers Morgan]

You don't honestly think that. You honestly think Donald Trump is a Nazi?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Piers, if you allow me to finish, you'd understand that. I'm not saying that. Just allow me to finish the sentence. My next sentence was, it does not matter whether you agree or disagree with the claim. The point is, I'm allowed to have a political ideology, and I wouldn't make that claim, by the way. I wouldn't call Donald Trump a Nazi. But my point is, if I believe that, and I'm making sure.

[Piers Morgan]

Is it a slur against Donald Trump?

[Andrew Sullivan]

No.

[Piers Morgan]

Wow.

[Andrew Sullivan]

That's my piers. I'm the one saying no.

[Piers Morgan]

So it's not a slur to call somebody. It's not a slur to call somebody a Nazi, but it is a slur to. To use the F word about somebody who's not even gay. Explain that.

[Andrew Sullivan]

No, I can't explain what you just said, because that's not the point I'm making. You've recharacterized what I said to you.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm not sure what the point is.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You're making what I'm saying.

Allow me to finish and you will. What I'm saying is if you are making an analysis of somebody and you in good faith believe that their behavior similar to. If you call me a fascist. I don't think I'm a fascist, but you have a right to say that. And I wouldn't call that a slurpee if my behavior is reminiscent of that, similar to the Nazi or any other argument that you make. I'm not going to call it a slur just because I disagree with you. Where it becomes different is if I'm attacking somebody for their identity, where I am insulting somebody for their identity, that becomes a slur. And in the last example you gave Piers, where somebody calls somebody the F word or somebody high fives their friend, as my other colleague said, it gives him a high five. And they're not even gay and they don't mean it that way. It may not be a slur, but you're still trafficking in homophobia. You're still trafficking.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Hang on, hang on. This is an illogical. This is actually illogical. Listen, I'll tell you why the reason that this is illogical is, and then.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Allow me to respond. Because every time you respond and tell me something, I don't get to respond.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Hang on. I understand, but the foundation of your argument is these words cause harm based on social stigma. And the social stigma is caused because you're using a harmful word. Calling people Nazis and fascists would create this exact same stigma that you're saying these other protected classes deserve. Your argument is a contradiction. It's P and not P at the same time. It's contradictory. So either it's one or the other, Mark. Either the social stigma needs to be argued against. Hang on, hang on. And in the uk, people are getting arrested for calling Donald Trump a Nazi as much as they get arrested for calling somebody the F slur. Because the social stigma is the thing that you're after. So you have to. You have to pick one, dude, pick a lane.

[Andrew Sullivan]

All right, now allow me to respond. Again, you have mischaracterized my argument. My point is not that social stigma is the predicate for deciding whether or not someone can say something or not. If it were, then you would be right. All words can have social stigma. I could call you a conservative.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

What is it?

[Andrew Sullivan]

And you can Have a social stigma you could call then what determines it? Allow me to finish that.

Please. Allow me to finish. You insisted on being allowed to finish. Let me do the same.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Yeah, I know. I just want the answer, though. What can it be?

[Andrew Sullivan]

You think it's easy to get the answer if you let me talk or if you don't?

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Okay. What I'm saying is, again, if just all words can potentially have stigma. If you call me a bleeding heart liberal, I may find that to produce stigma for me. I'm not saying that stigma alone is the issue. Stigma's not the predicate for me. And again, I'm not making the case that anybody should be arrested for any of it because it's so gray and slippery. I. I'm saying don't arrest anybody for any of the slang or any of the slurs, any of the language, any of the words that have been used against people. I'm saying don't arrest anybody for any of it. But the distinction I'm making here is not one of slur versus or stigma versus non stigma. What I'm saying is that as a community, we can certainly agree that assessing someone's behavior, even if it causes stigma, is okay. You not liking it isn't enough for me to stop saying it. What I'm saying is if we as a community decide that, that, hey, this particular word, this particular framework has historically caused harm to people not based on what they believe, not. Not based on anything they've done, but based on a particular identity category. I'm saying we can make different decisions. We may not agree on what the decision is.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

That's stigma, though, Mark. That's stigma. You are making a foundation.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me jump in. I want to hang on.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Stigma is not the foundation for my.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Stigma is not the foundation.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Again, all words can produce. It's not.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me ask Andrew a question.

[Andrew Sullivan]

You don't realize it.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me ask Andrew a question.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Just repeatedly shouting it is doesn't change.

[Piers Morgan]

The fact that it's a question. Let me ask a question.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I'm stipulating.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me ask a question.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I'm stipulating that it can all have stigma.

[Piers Morgan]

Mark, let me ask you a question of Andrew, which is about free speech, but it's a different twist on it because it's all been very anti the UK this debate, as indeed the debates raised in America about our free speech issues, which are legitimate. I agree. But a Reuters report recently said that more than 600Americans were fired, suspended, placed under investigation, or disciplined by employers for comments about Charlie Kirk's assassination. That was after a review of court records, public statements, local media reports, and interviews. Some were dismissed after celebrating or mocking Kirk's death. Fifteen were punished for allegedly invoking karma or divine justice. Nine others were disciplined for variance on good riddance. Other offending posts appeared to exult in the killing or expressed hope other Republican figures would be next. And we just had the President elect of the Oxford Union in the uk, who.

Was sort of depresited, removed from his presidency, which was about to take over because he had reacted in a sort of celebratory way when he heard the news of Charlie Kirk being shot. Now, in its way, is that not the very kind of censorship that you're talking about? Or do you think there's a line between accountability to your employers and to police criminal activity?

[Mark Lamont Hill]

No. The left has been depersoning and canceling people for, I mean, my whole lifetime. And it has whipped up into a fervor since Trump's election. But even pre election, they don't just deperson you, they debank you. They deplatform you. You're not allowed to say anything. They run massive harassment campaigns. The first time I've ever seen you poke the bear. Poke the bear, Poke the bear. They finally did something, and all that happened was some people lost their jobs. They weren't de personed. They weren't completely ostracized from all of regular society because they said a no, no word. These were people who were celebrating in the streets horrific murder, which they likely contributed to through their own rhetoric.

[Piers Morgan]

Right.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

That's what actually happened there.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Oh, wait, language.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

Hang on, hang on. All that happened here, right, was for once, the right actually pushed back after you poked us enough time. So, like, look, am I saying that people should get fired from their jobs? No, of course not. But what I am saying is this, is that there's a clear difference between de personing and debanking people and ostracizing them from society completely. And an employer saying, you don't represent my company very well, so you're fired.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay.

[Mark Lamont Hill]

And that's the distinction.

[Piers Morgan]

All right. Gotta leave it there. Fascinating. I'm gonna leave it there. Mark, I'm sorry, we're running out of time. A fascinating debate. Thank you all very much.

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