Jonathan Dimbleby (2:11)

Welcome to be on your program.

Piers Morgan (2:13)

Great to have you. I was watching your brother David last night raging about the fact that this royal visit is going ahead to the United States in three weeks, how are

Jonathan Dimbleby (2:23)

you feeling about it on this occasion? I agree with him completely. I said my bit about this about two weeks ago when it first came up. I think that it's a mistake. I think the government made a mistake in sending him there for various reasons.

Piers Morgan (2:38)

What are the reasons that you think are the most compelling?

Jonathan Dimbleby (2:41)

I think two essential reasons. One is, I think it puts him in a very embarrassing position, potentially. And secondly, I think it puts Britain in a rather humiliating position because it makes us look like a supplicant who will do anything to keep a relationship with the United States and this president, despite what the President says and does and the offensive way in which he talks about the King, his offensive remarks about NATO, of which we are a leading member, as the US Is supposed to be and always has been. And I think that he has a. Trump has. I think Trump is, at best, my terms, mercurial. Of course he will treat the King with great courtesy. And of course, the king on his official visit will behave with great dignity, charm, and will do his job perfectly. However, I would be surprised. At least there is a serious risk that, having been charming to the King, he will contrast his feelings for the king for England, for Scotland, the monarchy, with his feelings for the Prime Minister. And I think that puts the King in a very difficult position. He'll do that contrast by going on what he calls truth social, which for me at least, is a. Is a. Is a. Is a violation of terms.

Piers Morgan (4:00)

I mean, the counterargument to this and the reason that, of course, Keir Starmer will want the royal visit to go ahead, is that the unprecedented second state visit that we afforded Donald Trump last year was a big success, went without incident. I spoke to President Trump the morning after the state dinner here in England the next morning, and he was ecstatic about it. And so I guess if you're Keir Starmer and you've got this big wobble in the fable, special relationship, it may just buy you a little bit more grace with Trump to get things back on an even keel. That's the argument.

Jonathan Dimbleby (4:36)

Yeah. I think it's an argument that if I were sailing in the boat, I would risk getting into the lifeboat. It would be safer. I think it's a pretty poor argument, frankly, because just go hark back to when that visit took place. And you're right, I'm sure. And you would have. He would have. The way in which he spoke to you about it, I'm sure is how he felt. And I've picked that up all round. However, hasn't stopped him behaving towards Britain in ways which are, as I described, uncomplimentary, undignified and unfriendly. And I think that therefore the case against it holds. Of course, the argument in favor as well as what you've just mentioned is that the long term relationship, this is what the King will, I'm sure, make the most of. The long term relationship between the two countries goes back a very, you know, centuries is one is one that matters and he will be careful not saying anything suggests that this President is a here today, gone tomorrow president. But he will anchor it, I'm sure, in the long standing relationship. And that's, I guess what the King and the people around him will create along with the government in a speech. Fundamental thing is the government asks effectively says, you, Majesty, will you go? And the King, because of his role, he has to do that. He, I mean, he doesn't have to do it, but it'd be very difficult not to do it because he knows his role as Head of state. And I think he is being put in a very difficult position which I think it's not wise to have put him in.

Piers Morgan (6:07)

There is another aspect to this which I don't think we should overlook, which is the Royal family's had one of the most torrid years imaginable with the Andrew scandal and all the tentacles that have flown out of there. They've obviously also had in recent years, the death of Prince Philip, the death of Her Majesty the Queen, seismic, seismic things going on, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex turning rogue and so on. And I suspect that, you know, when you wrote the book, he was mere Prince Charles, now he's King Charles, but you know him better than many. That was an authorized biography and he got to know him well.

Jonathan Dimbleby (6:42)

Part of wasn't technically authorized. I never had to get authorization for it.

Piers Morgan (6:47)

Oh really?

Jonathan Dimbleby (6:47)

No, absolutely didn't. I never did any one point. They had the capacity. I had a massive access just, just be boringly detailed and they could at any point not have given the go ahead on some of the letters that I printed. Because you can always, at any moment, as you will know very well, people can pull letters. So I had that. But I had no other constraint put on me whatsoever.

Piers Morgan (7:09)

Well, I certainly wasn't meaning to offend you with that term. Why don't we, why don't we make it. You had an incredibly well sourced book.

Jonathan Dimbleby (7:18)

Yes, it was not approved, but it was facilitated.

Piers Morgan (7:22)

Got it, it's an important clarification. And my point being that you got to know him very well and I suspect he's a smart guy, he's a wise guy, he's very experienced. And there must be a part of him, Jonathan, I would argue that is thinking the two most powerful kind of entities in the world arguably are the American Congress and the British Monarchy. I mean, you can make other arguments for others, but they're right up there. Right. And he's got an opportunity to go and not just have a big state dinner which will get huge coverage in America where a lot of people will come to this country as tourists off the back of the royals, but also he's going to make an address to the Joint Congress. And that's a big thing for any monarch. I don't know. I mean, you will probably know. But did the Queen ever do that?

Jonathan Dimbleby (8:15)

Yes, she has done that. And the King has. I believe I'm right and I may be wrong about it. So I think as Prince of Wales, he may have done, incidentally. But you're right, of course you're right about the importance of that. Whether or not they're equal in the scales, the elected Congress and the unelected monarchy, if you like. But they're both very substantively important international institutions. Of course they are. And I think that's what will be in the mind. And I suspect that what is being crafted for him to say, and he will put his own stamp on it incidentally, in Congress will go out of its way to demonstrate what we've sort of touched on, the importance of that long standing relationship. I shy away from the term special relationship. I think you will know better than me. It's not often referred to like that in the United States.

Piers Morgan (9:11)

No, it's not.

Jonathan Dimbleby (9:12)

And I think it's odd because I think it's self deception to call it the special relationship. In the end, relations are about self interest. I mean, I write history books, self interest. And the United States as it came into the Second World War out of enlightened self interest under this President does what he thinks is in the self interest of the United States. Whether it is, of course, is highly debatable, which is why it is such a contentious presidency. So it won't influence the way in which he acts. And to be honest, the fact that he happens to like the monarchy is neither here nor there in the effectiveness of the relationship between the two countries. And whether or not he treats with respect to this country, whether or not he negotiates or allows to be Negotiated trade relations of the kind that this country needs. He's so. I use the term, he's so mercurial. Well, you know it. You know it, Piers.

Piers Morgan (10:17)

Well, I thought my daughter, who's. My daughter, who's 14, I thought had the best line about Trump. She kept hearing me say in interviews, he's a unique character. And eventually she said to me, daddy, you keep calling Donald Trump a unique character. Do you think there's such a thing as being too unique?

Jonathan Dimbleby (10:35)

It's very nicely put. Very nicely put.

Piers Morgan (10:39)

So I'm told in my ear by one of my brilliant teams, that Charles has actually never addressed Congress. His mother, the late queen, did in the early 90s. So he'll be the second monarch who's done this because obviously before Queen Elizabeth, you couldn't travel to America, so you wouldn't have been able to get there even if you wanted to. So it's a very historic thing. And I think just my final point about it is that if you're Charles, you must be slightly thinking, this puts me center stage on the biggest possible platform, the United States Congress, as the monarch of the United Kingdom. And after all the crap he's had to deal with, including a lot of health issues and everything else, this is an opportunity to just be center stage on the biggest of stages.

Jonathan Dimbleby (11:25)

I think he's cool about opportunities to be centre stage. To be honest, he's been centre stage in many ways for so long. However, I think you're right, he will regard this opportunity to speak to Congress as a significant opportunity. And that is the best argument in favor of him going, as I said, I'm a Guinness, because it will come up again. But I think that that is right. He will make the most of it and it'll get a lot of coverage and people will pore over the fine detail, which is why I can imagine that his advisors at the palace and number 10 and the foreign Office are all working together like crazy to ensure that it's crafted in a way that does Britain as much benefit as possible and does any relationship with the United States as little damage as possible.

Piers Morgan (12:10)

What they should do, they should take you and or your brother. Because Donald Trump told me once, not so long ago, actually, after the last state visit, that he had watched the coronation of Queen Elizabeth on his mother's knee in New York when he was 6 years old. And that was when he saw how much the royal family meant to his mother. And he then inherited this love of the royal family. And of course, that broadcast that he watched would have been the one that your father, Richard Dimbleby anchored for the BBC. It was one of the first big things that was ever broadcast and changed

Jonathan Dimbleby (12:45)

the world of television, incidentally. Yeah, it dramatically changed because people started to buy televisions in very large numbers. Yes, it is. And we know where it's taken us, for better, for worse.

Piers Morgan (12:56)

Well, a Dimblebee started it and a Dimblebee is with me now. So I told you about something.

Jonathan Dimbleby (13:00)

We were going to finish it.

Piers Morgan (13:03)

Jonathan, great to have you. Thank you very much. Pleasure for joining me to debate all this. Journalist and Vanity Fair royal correspondent Katie Nicholl, host of the News Agents and former Washington correspondent for the BBC, John Sopel, Sir Anthony Selden, historian, author of the Architecture of Diplomacy and the host of the Sean Spicer Show. Sean Spicer, well, welcome to all of you, all friends of the show.

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Piers Morgan (13:54)

Anthony Selden, welcome back. Let me just from a historical point of view, I think I'm right in saying because Tim Charles is going to addressed Congress, I think on the Wednesday of their, of their three, four day visit. And I think the only other person that's done that from the royal family is his mother, The Queen in 91 too, when she went over there and addressed Congress. Otherwise this is, this has never happened.

Anthony Seldon (14:20)

Absolutely right, Piers. And it's an incredible moment and I think it's why he should go on this trip to remind the American people what democracy is all about. Look, 250th anniversary, America broke away from the monarchy to create democracy. Who now has the better quality of democracy? The country with a king, with a monarchy and with a separation of powers and individual rights and respect for elections and all the rest of it or America, which is seeing those go down the sink. So I think this is a supreme moment, the most important moment that Prince King Charles will have in his entire monarchy to get a world stage to speak about values that are eternal and which speak of deep enlightenment, respect for truth, the dignity of each individual and a restricted power of the state. So I think he should do it. I think he should seize the opportunity And I think it will be the most powerful moment. And nobody else, I think, can do that.

Piers Morgan (15:32)

Just before I go to the other three, I mean, the problem is, and this is not King Charles fault, because it wasn't him that did anything wrong, but at the same time that he might be preaching about the power of dignity and trust and all the rest of it and all the things you've just so eloquently espoused, there's this ongoing sitting time bomb of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, stripped of all his titles, who refuses to give evidence to the same US Congress about what he knew with Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted pedophile, despite paying millions to a girl he says he never met, who we now know the picture, which he said wasn't true, was true because that came out in the emails. You've got this all simmering away, which is the complete opposite of what you've just said. How difficult will that be, do you think, for King Charles? He's already been on walkabouts in the UK where people have shouted out about his brother. It's going to be intensified a bit in America, I would think.

Anthony Seldon (16:38)

Tricky Piers. But this is what greatness is all about, isn't it? I mean, we have the very worst of humanity and the very worst of human behavior in what Epstein did, and that that should not trump, no pun intended, what is an opportunity to remind the world, as well as the United States, what this country founded 250 years ago, broken away like a rib out of the chest of Great Britain, to set up a country that believes in human dignity, human rights, in liberty, in limited government, in truth and in elections, to remind them about what the very best in humanity. So the very worst of humanity should not be an excuse for this opportunity, which, if he does it well, as I'm sure he would, will totally, totally knock off the front pages whatever problems could come up by association with Andrew Mountbatten, with Windsor.

Piers Morgan (17:49)

Okay, well, if that's clear, there is a man to your left and your right both pulling quite dramatic faces. Let me go to the American one first, who's been gurning away in incredulity at what he's hearing. Sean, welcome back to Uncensored. Apparently, democracy in America is crashing into oblivion as we show the world what real democracy is about. I would also point out you're about to celebrate the 250th anniversary of your supposed independence, which, if you hadn't gone down that route, you could have had King Piers by now, which would surely have been a better bet. For you Americans, I think we're doing

Sean Spicer (18:28)

just fine, thank you. Look, all due respect, really, our former government.

Anthony Seldon (18:33)

Really?

Sean Spicer (18:34)

Really? Yeah, really. I love it because here in America, we had these no kings protests, which is ironic from the sense that there seems to be an overlooking of the last election where Donald Trump won the popular vote. He won all seven swing states. We had a very robust democracy. It's like when the left and the folks in the media don't get their way, somehow democracy is under attack. If you look ironically, it was the left. It was Kamala Harris that was coronated. Maybe we should have had a no queens rally, because it was Kamala Harris that didn't have to face the primary voters in the Democratic Party to become the Democratic nominee. It was Kamala Harris that lost an election very profoundly to Donald Trump. We went through our own exercise, which is called an election, which is the cornerstone of any republic, which is what we have, just to give you guys a little lesson in what form of government we actually do have here. And frankly, I'm looking forward. No, thank you. Because that's what it is. I know you. You may not want to call it that, but technically it's true. But I'm looking forward to the King coming. We have, as we like to say, a special relationship with Great Britain. And on our eve of our 250th anniversary, regardless of what president's in office at the time, I think there's a great. It's very fitting for the King in particular to come over and to discuss the relationship, the formation of our country, and the current relation that we have. I think it's great that he's coming. I know that there's a ton of side issues, and there always will be. At some time or another, it won't matter. There'll always be something outstanding. I'm glad the King is coming. I think it's a great honor that he gets to address Congress as his mother did. So I'm looking forward to his visit. I'm looking forward to celebrating 250th years. But frankly, with all due respect, we don't need any lessons in how to conduct our business from. From the folks over in the UK

Piers Morgan (20:28)

okay, well, little warning card there. We bring in John Sopel. John, is this a good idea for King Charles? Because the argument is that while there's a war raging, that's inappropriate. And particularly when the President of the United States appears to have gone rogue against this country, he's been very negative about our prime minister, about the country, about Our military, about the way our military served in Afghanistan, which, as somebody who had a brother who served in Afghanistan, I found particularly objectionable, I have to say. But is it right, do you think, that in three weeks, King Charles and Queen Camilla go to the United States and have a big state dinner in the middle of a raging war and so on?

John Sopel (21:13)

I think the thing is very, very awkward and uncomfortable. I was really struck by the statement that came from the palace yesterday, which started on the advice of His Majesty's Government. Like, nothing to do with me. I didn't want to go. But honestly, the government is telling me that I really ought to. And I've had it on good authority that, you know, those in Buckingham palace before the second state visit, when Donald Trump came back to Britain, thought that it shouldn't go ahead, that he was going to be up in Scotland, he could go and visit his golf course and then pop in for a very nice dinner at Balmoral, and that should be it, and that it was too soon to give Donald Trump an unprecedented second state visit. I remember interviewing Keir Starmer. He said, well, this is unprecedented because Donald Trump is an unprecedented figure. I said, yeah, he's been impeached twice and has got a criminal conviction. As for the democracy point and Sean's point about, you know, don't lecture us, the 2024 election, Democrats don't seem to like it when they don't win. I 100% agree with you. The 2024 election was entirely fair. Donald Trump won it all, the swing states, absolutely no question about it. What about the 2020 election when Donald Trump lost and there were 63 court cases, and the head of election security said it was absolutely fine, and the attorney general said it was absolutely fine, and the general counsel in the White House said it was absolutely fine, and one person couldn't accept it. Donald Trump, he doesn't have a great record when elections go against him. I would just gently say.

Piers Morgan (22:48)

I mean, I will let Sean come back on that in a moment. What I would say about that is I settled Mr. Trump's face in the last interview we did, and things got very acrimonious. I guess the argument is that in defense of America's democratic process, is that Donald Trump did leave the White House, notwithstanding the fact he said the election was rigged and I didn't lose everything else. He did leave when he was supposed to leave and democracy was seen to be done. So it may be that he doesn't. I mean, you know, I can remember. I'm old enough to Remember when Hillary Clinton was questioning the result of the 2016 election, she used different language about it, but she was certainly suggesting that

John Sopel (23:25)

there she didn't mount legal challenges. She was.

Piers Morgan (23:27)

No, no, it was different.

John Sopel (23:28)

She was in the middle for the inauguration.

Piers Morgan (23:30)

She certainly was suggesting that this wasn't a fair fight. And I think that the bottom line with, I guess, the American system, I would say, if I was an American defending it, is, well, Trump did leave. He may not have wanted to, and he might have disparaged that election and said it was rigged and so on, which it wasn't, but he did leave. So in real dictatorships, they don't leave. Let me bring in Katie. Lovely to see you. From a royal perspective, putting aside the politics of it, because I think politically this is going to be good for Keir Starmer, because right. When he's under the cosh himself as a leader, he's seen an opportunity with this war to. To get back on the front foot a little bit and to show how big and strong he is, and he didn't go into this illegal war and so on and so on, just because the Americans wanted him to. I think he made some fundamental errors. I think he should have allowed the Americans to use our bases, for example, at the start. I think we are a NATO country. I think that you've got to do something. I remember Margaret Thatcher had Ronald Reagan over Grenada. There was a similar issue. And in the end, privately, she criticized him, but she did support him publicly, so there's precedent for this. But from a royal perspective, they've had a horrendous six, seven years horrendous. You know, Prince Philip dies, the Queen dies, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex go, Rome. Catherine gets cancer, Charles gets cancer. The Andrew scandal rages ever more furiously. It is hard to remember, really. I remember in the 90s when Diana died and. And so on, it seemed, you know, very, very big at the time. The series of things which have hit the monarchy here have made it seem as perilous as I can ever remember it. This is a chance for Charles to go somewhere where they love the monarchy, broadly speaking, they don't want one, but they. I think there's a lot of affection towards the British monarchy. He is the king. It's the first time he'll have done this. And there's a power. There's a power in the British monarchy coming together with the United States Congress. I think that moment for him will be huge. And it's just a chance to get away from the health stuff, from the Scandal stuff from the deaths that have been enveloping the family, from the rogue elements in California. And just to remind everybody that at its best, this is a great institution. I see the merit of that. So although I see the argument about they should delay it because of the war and so on, I do see the power of. If Trump's invited him, I think he had to go.

Katie Nicholl (26:01)

I think absolutely. And I think also the one point in all of this is that when you consider Charles's reign, which is still in its infancy, this is probably the most important moment he is going to have to show that really important, I would say, fundamental role that the monarch can play, which is soft power, because he is in a position to be able to obtain and achieve something that Keir Starmer could only wish for and will never achieve. No politician can. And I think that's where you see that, that soft power, that diplomacy being exercised. And I think he will be magnificent when he addresses Congress. I think he will be eloquent and elegant. Someone, I can't remember on the panel used the word enlightened. I think it was Anthony. And I think the King will absolutely be enlightened. You know, he visited, I think, America 17 times when he was Prince of Wales. This is his first visit as reigning monarch. But I think, as you say, Piers, it couldn't come at a more important moment to show really what we have, the monarchy, for that important role on the international stage. Absolutely crucial. And I think to fix, heal, repair, where politicians have, frankly, I mean, there's been a slanging match that has been.

Piers Morgan (27:10)

And the way. You're not gonna get. I can guarantee it. Well, pretty well guarantee. You wouldn't guarantee anything in Trump world, but I would pretty well guarantee he won't do anything negative about King Charles, Certainly not while he's there. In fact, he hasn't said a negative thing about it.

Katie Nicholl (27:24)

No.

Piers Morgan (27:26)

I spoke to Donald Trump the morning after the State, the last state visit in the UK, and we spoke in the morning about 9 o', clock, and he was absolutely waxing lyrical about the way the King had treated him, the way he spoke about him and the country and America in his speech. And it got on very well with Queen Camilla. He sat next to her. They'd actually gone. It's quite interesting. They'd gone. He told me at the end of the dinner, at about 11 o', clock, King Charles comes over and said to President Trump, could we go and have some tea? And he thought he meant the next day, and actually he meant then and there, and they went off to a side room. Donald Trump and Melania, President and first lady of the United States and the King and Queen, Charles and Camilla. And they went to a side room for over an hour until well after midnight and just privately chewed the fat about. We do not know what, but there's an enormous amount of affection. You know, I was talking to Jonathan Dimbleby earlier, who was Charles semi official biographer, but his father, Richard Dimbleby had been the BBC anchor for the coronation of the Queen back in 53. And Trump reminded me that morning when we spoke that he had watched that coronation on his mother's knee, age 6 in New York. And it was one of the first ever televised global events. Richard Dimbleby, Jonathan's dad and David's dad, had been the anchor who broadcast it. And Donald Trump was able to see how much this meant to his mother, who had lived in Scotland till she was 18 and loved the Royal family and he inherited that love of the Royal family. So this means a lot to Trump and he won't do anything. He might whack politicians, but he's not going to whack the King or Queen. And it is a chance for the Royal family to have a bit of a reset. And knowing Donald Trump, after a lot of Brit bashing this year, he might see it as a good opportunity, particularly if his timeline for the war ending, which may be just before they get there, if he's right, it gives him a chance to just slightly reset things with Britain through the prism of the Royal family, not through the politicians. Anthony Seldon, you're the historian.

Anthony Seldon (29:34)

Am I barking up the right tree, Piers? You're always barking up lots of trees and many of them are right, Piers, at the same time. But there's a delicious irony here, which is that it was the British monarch that drove both countries apart 250 years ago. And it might well be the case you're suggesting and others that it will be the British monarch that will help bring the country together 250 years later. But I just want to ask Mr. Spicer a question. Which is which elements of the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation and the constitution of the U.S. does he think that the current president is most articulating which of the elements there? Thomas Paine, Montesquieu, John Locke, you will know all these things. Rousseau, which of the elements do you think he is best articulating in the paean of democracy that you are painting him as? Mr. Spicer? It'd be interesting for everyone to know

Piers Morgan (30:41)

Mr. Spicer well, first, let me just

Sean Spicer (30:44)

let me, if I can. I'll get to that in a second. But I do think that Pierce is onto something. The president's admiration for the monarchy is very true and deep. And I think the idea of being able and I would just to some degree argue with the premise in that I don't think every time that you're not talking happy talk with a peer or an ally doesn't mean that you are straining the relationship. I think good friends, family members can have disagreements and frankly, sometimes that's. That's how you get through things is to be able to air those grievances. So I think just because he's at this moment in time very upset with how Keir Starmer's responding to the issues in Iran and the straight of horror movies in particular does not mean that the relationship is strained. That being said, I think that the proposition that Piers has put forward about the role of the monarch in particular King Charles is very right. The idea that they can continue to use that as a vehicle to have a further dialogue and continue to strengthen those maybe outside the role of politicians like Starmer is a good thing. To the professor's question, I would say I'm a bit perplexed by it. I mean, the Articles of Confederation were a means of governance by which we threw out, frankly, because they didn't address the notion of a federal government. It was states rights. It was something that didn't work. So I'm not sure that anyone would want to encourage government embrace the Articles of Confederation. I think as far as the Declaration of Independence, the president has been very clear about. About the pursuit of happiness, if you will, in that for four years of Joe Biden we were told of folks on the right that if you didn't hew to people's pronouns and woke ideology culture that you were canceled and censored. The president has brought back a sense of being able to express yourself, not felt punishment if you don't agree with every sentiment that's expressed by the left or the ruling class, I think in very well. So as somebody I tell people often when I was a senior in college, we literally canceled our commencement speaker. It was the health and human services secretary for the first Bush that was in office because they didn't like a position of the Bush administration. For decades, those of us on the

Anthony Seldon (32:59)

right have felt that's obviously a bad thing.

Sean Spicer (33:01)

Can I just finish?

Anthony Seldon (33:02)

Yeah, if you mind, I'll wear away from what we're doing.

Sean Spicer (33:06)

No, I was just going to finish. If you don't mind? I was trying to be polite. I thought that was a very British thing. And so, anyway, I believe that the president has allowed those of us on the right to express ourselves freely and to be able to have those conversations that for the longest time, including the last four years of Biden, we were canceled and censored for. So I believe if you want to take the question that you asked, A, the Declaration of Independence and then B, the First Amendment of our Constitution, which too many in this country just believe is about the press, it's also about freedom of assembly, freedom of expression. But for a long time, those that were the elites in the United States, whether it's corporate America, Big tech silenced us.

Piers Morgan (33:47)

Okay, John.

John Sopel (33:48)

I'm a great admirer of the U.S. constitution. I'm a great admirer of the First Amendment. I am an Atlanticist. I spent eight years living in America, loved it. And I think that the relationship between the Americans have with our royal family is extraordinary. They don't know anything about our politicians, but they know very closely what our royal family is doing. I just think that we gave Donald TRUMP A second state visit to the U.K. and if you're U.K. pLC, you would say, so what have we got out of it? Donald Trump has been, I mean, pretty damn rude about the UK as a whole, not just about Keir Starmer, but about our armed forces, about the contribution, you know, Piers, as you were saying about them that they made in Afghanistan, which I thought was so ill conceived. And I just, you know, I think that the King is doing a fantastic job. In normal circumstances, I would be 100% behind the king and the queen going to the U.S. but I just worry that it will be another occasion where it will be a sort of embarrassment where Donald Trump will find himself at a podium. He'll be asked a question. It won't be magnificently controlled. I'm sure the address to Congress will be great. But Donald Trump will sound off about Keir Starmer. He's let me down. He's not exactly with me.

Piers Morgan (35:03)

Well, that will be a problem. I agree with you. I think that that's where the potential minefield could lie, which is where he goes a bit rogue about Starmer or if the war still raging and Britain is not really contributing. Katie Nicholl, I mean, there are two other parts of this on the royal side. One is the Andrew overhang and the fact you've already got Virginia Giuffre, one of the victims who sadly took her life, her family calling for King Charles to meet with some of the Epstein victims when he's over in America. I don't think there's any chance of that happening.

Katie Nicholl (35:36)

Well, sorry, it can't happen, Piers. I mean, it can't happen in the palace have guided us on that, saying it can't because of the police investigation that's going on. So while we know they've made their empathy with victims clear, they can't actually go and take those meetings even if they wanted to.

Piers Morgan (35:49)

But it does mean it will hang over the trip, of course, and they are gonna get questioned. I mean, not directly, but you're gonna. People shouting things, you're going to get people appearing on cable news, talking about it and everything else. So that's one problem. And then you've got the ongoing running sore of Harry and Meghan, the Sussexes down in California, who were now told that Harry wants to see his father in Sandringham when he's over for his Invictus games and so on. But many people briefing from the Royal side, they just don't trust him to allow him to do that, which is an extraordinary state of affairs with his. With one of his two sons. But you can understand it.

Katie Nicholl (36:25)

Well, I think firstly, you know, the King will go to events, engagements here, and will be lobbied. There'll be protesters. He's perfectly used to that. He's incredibly experienced. I don't think that is going to faze him at all. You know, they've made their statements about Andrew, they've made their statements about the victims. I think anything like that will be brushed off with the same sort of expertise that you see when he exercises out and about engagements here. As far as Harry is concerned, I mean, I had heard rumors not so long ago that Harry was hoping to at least be in New York, that there might be some sort of a meeting. Clearly, that's not on the cards, it's not on the agenda. I think the King's got far more important things that he wants to do. And Harry and Meghan are going to be on some sort of crazy royal tour to Australia in any case. Fortuitous timing. Absolutely. Because I think the focus on this has to be.

Piers Morgan (37:12)

Is it at the same time, that

Katie Nicholl (37:13)

Australia trip we're waiting to.

Piers Morgan (37:16)

It won't be far off, but it

Katie Nicholl (37:17)

won't be far off. And it will be very convenient, I think, for the King if Harry is in Australia, because I think any visit that the royals do, whether it's William and Kate over to America, the King and the Queen is going to throw up. Well, if they're here, they're that close to Meghan and Harry. Why isn't there a meeting? So there's always those sub narratives that will happen. But you know, this trip has been planned very meticulously. There was a lot of speculation over recent weeks that it was going to be called off. I'd been given a very clear line from the palace that they were in full planning mode, they were going to go ahead and if it was going to be cancelled, it would be by Downing Street. This is the government's agenda. It's going ahead and they will make sure that that agenda remains on what they want it to do. But there's always the possibility for Trump going off piste. I mean, we see it all the time and you never know what, what someone in the crowd might shout out at the King.

Piers Morgan (38:01)

Anthony Selden, this issue of the Sussexes and having their rival unofficial royal trips all around the world. How damaging is that, do you think, to a monarchy? It's already feeling like it's slightly teetering just because of, of manpower. You know, they've lost some of their biggest stars.

Anthony Seldon (38:21)

Okay, so I don't agree with you on that, Piers. I think that Charles has done extraordinarily well as the monarch, against much expectation that he wouldn't be able to be a figure comparable to his mother, the most famous woman in the world.

Piers Morgan (38:38)

No, I agree with you, Brian.

Anthony Seldon (38:39)

I think he's had all the problems you said, but I think people have priced in the fact that, that Harry and Meghan are awkward and all the other factors that you've said. And I come back to this as an extraordinary opportunity for the King to show what dignity and what respect for other people and what human values and what democracy are all about. And I think if he can pull that off, and I'm sure he will, it will be the greatest moment of his monarchy. He'll never have again such an opportunity on the world stage where everyone, everyone is going to be listening to what he's saying at the end of April to the joint meeting of Congress. It's an extraordinary moment in history and I think he'll seize it and his seizing it peers will eclipse all these other noises going on and put them back in the box.

Piers Morgan (39:44)

I don't think John Sopel is 100% behind you on this declaration. No, I'm sure he's not John Sopel.

John Sopel (39:51)

Well, look, I totally see the value of royal visits, I totally see the soft power that the royal family brings. But you just have to look at what has happened in terms of relationships, the kind of misnomer of calling it the special relationship over the past year and a bit of Donald Trump's presidency where you've seen British government ministers fawning over Donald Trump in the hope that they will somehow be in his good graces. And the first time the occasion that, you know, a minister or that the government doesn't do what exactly what Donald Trump wants, it all blows up. And, you know, I think it's really telling as well from British government ministers who have, for the past three or four months on interviews that we've done, have talked about, oh, well, it's for the palace to decide whether they're going to America or not. No, it's not. It's on the prime minister's advice that you are going. And I'm just not sure right now, given the state of relations, what there is realistically to be gained. And I said, and as I say, I preface this with all the comments I make about being an Atlanticist, seeing the value of soft power, the diplomatic heft that the king can bring to a country. I just think it sort of humiliates us that we are seen to be scraping and groveling to a president who frankly doesn't seem to have a lot of respect and is treating us as a. Well, there was a word that your guest Derek Chisora used on your show yesterday, Piers, which I wouldn't dream of repeating.

Piers Morgan (41:26)

You know, it's funny. Sean Spicer, very quickly, we've got to wrap up, but you and I have known President Trump a long time. I've known him 20 years actually this year. And, you know, I fell out with him several times, but the last time was after I interviewed him. And it all got quite fractious in between a great interview, probably my favorite interview I've done with him out of dozens. But he got fractious over the stolen election stuff and he lost his rag with me and then he went out trashing me for weeks. He went on a stage in somewhere like Minneapolis or something and said I was so dead, I was catching flies. And I just fought back, issued a few statements of my own, never gave an inch, accepted that we were going to have a little period of Siberian foidure. And then a few months later, the phone went. I was in my studio dressing room here, actually, and it was Donald Trump. He was in between presidencies, and he just said, piers, is Donald. Are we good? Are we good? I said, of course we are. And we just carried on like nothing had happened. In other words, Nothing is that permanent with Donald Trump. He'll blow hot and cold. He's a, he's a trash talking New Yorker. This is what he is. Right. And I can see that you're a strong man, Piers. Yes. But I wouldn't.

Anthony Seldon (42:39)

Bullies a lot of people who.

Piers Morgan (42:42)

My point to Sean is that having worked alongside him, you know, I just don't think you should take every. This whole thing about don't take everything he says too seriously or too literally. He blows hot and cold and can very quickly turn on a dime if it suits him.

Sean Spicer (42:56)

I think the analysis is right. It depends on who you are, obviously. But I think there's also. So yes, your analysis is spot on. You can go at it with them and you look at, I mean, just look at his cabinet, right. Marco Rubio. And Trump went at it very badly and fiercely in the 2016 and now he's just one of his top aides. He's the top diplomat earning high praise from the guy. So this happens quite often in his orbit. But I would also say that just, and I say this respectfully but like part of the problem fundamentally, and I've talked to him very recently in the last seven days about this, is that there's a fundamental disagreement about the relationship that most people think they have with the United States, which is it's very one way. It's here's what the United States should do with its military, here's what the United States should do with its large ass and its funding, and here's what we will tell you to do with it. If any good relationship is back and forth. And right now it seems that Europe does a really good job of telling the United States what it should be doing. And when we raise our hand and say, hey, when we called for your help, you are nowhere to be found. Somehow that's undermining the alliance and not being a good friend. I'm sorry, as an American, as a taxpayer, someone who served in the military for almost three decades, I will tell you, I think it's high time that an American president serves, stood up and said a relationship is two way, it's not one way. And I think that sometimes the rhetoric, as Piers noted, may go, maybe not what some of us would use, but at the end of the day, he makes it very clear that it's not permanent, but there is a reason and it is warranted to stand up for the United States and what we are doing with our military.

Piers Morgan (44:34)

Funny, I've got to wrap it. It would be quite funny if, if King Charles seized the moment in Congress to pull a Hugh Grant from Love, actually, and let Trump have it in front of the world's cameras. That would be quite something. He won't.

Sean Spicer (44:49)

There's a reason it's just in the movies, Piers.

Piers Morgan (44:51)

There's a reason he's the king and I'm just a wannabe. Great to have you all. Thank you very much. Excellent debate.

Sean Spicer (44:56)

Take care.

Piers Morgan (44:58)

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