"SHOW Me The Evidence!" Israel-Iran War Debate - Trump Threatens To Quit NATO

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "SHOW Me The Evidence!" – Israel-Iran War Debate & Trump Threatens To Quit NATO

Piers Morgan Uncensored – April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This fiery episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored dives into the complex fallout from the Israel-Iran war, President Trump’s shifting rhetoric on NATO, the shifting goalposts for regime change and nuclear disarmament in Iran, and controversial new legislation passed by Israel’s Knesset. The debate features attorney and Iranian-American activist Elika Lebon Aramate, journalist and activist Goldie Gamari, The Young Turks host Anna, and commentator Aaron. The panelists challenge each other over facts, numbers, and the ethics of intervention, with host Piers Morgan pushing for evidence and introspection about perceived double standards, while repeatedly highlighting the human costs and moral ambiguities of modern warfare and international alliances.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Disputing Death Tolls and War Propaganda (00:00–04:44, 20:28–30:43)

• Opening Clash: Anna and Elika Lebon Aramate clash on whether 30,000 people were killed in Iran’s protests, with Elika challenging Anna to “show me the evidence” ([00:01]).
• Elika’s Claim: Asserts that “every single hospital in every single city in Iran gave a tally of how many corpses were in their beds”, totaling 36,500 deaths ([20:56]).
• Anna’s Response: Refuses to accept that figure, citing lack of verifiable, credible sources and emphasizing the difficulty of trusting information from authoritarian regimes ([21:14]).
• Piers’ Mediation: Draws parallels to Palestinian death counts in Gaza, pointing out that both sides invoke or dispute numbers based on political predispositions. “You got utterly enraged when people questioned the number of people who'd been killed in Gaza… and yet here you are doing exactly what so many Israeli guests did on this show about the deaths in Gaza” ([21:54]).

Notable Moments

• Double Standards and Credibility:
  “It shows you who they defer to. And that is what's worrying.” – Elika ([29:18])
  “I'm intellectually honest enough to say I don't know, but I certainly... I'm not in a position to emphatically deny any figure because I don't know.” – Piers ([30:20])

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2. Shifting Objectives: Regime Change, Nuclear Threats, and American Strategy (04:44–12:43)

• Trump’s Rationale & Strategy:
  Piers outlines Trump’s wavering war aims—from preventing Iranian nuclear capability to regime change and “bringing Iran to its knees.” Calls Trump’s statements “contradictory” and possible political posturing as elections approach ([04:44]).
• Panel’s Takes:
  • Elika: Argues that the only acceptable endgame is the removal of the regime, stating that “the worst case scenario is that this war ends and the regime is still in power. That's worse than if the war never happened at all” ([04:00]).
  • Anna: Warns that “there isn’t a path” to regime change and that the current military approach is “going to get American soldiers killed” without achieving stated objectives ([06:55]).
  • Goldie: Places trust in US intelligence and Trump’s leadership, stating, “the vast majority of the Islamic regime’s ground forces has been destroyed” and charges Iran with using child soldiers ([10:48]).

Notable Quotes

• “There isn't gonna be regime change in Iran. And by the way, I think it's disgusting that we are dragged into a war on behalf of a foreign country that does not plan to put any of their boots on the ground.” – Anna ([08:41])
• “You are quick to trust the Hamas run health ministry, which just shows who you trust, right? Which is terrorist regimes.” – Elika ([26:13])

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3. Asymmetric Warfare, Civilian Toll, and Misgivings About Intervention (12:43–20:28)

• Economic Fallout and Two-War Fronts:
  Piers describes Iran’s success in using asymmetric tactics to damage global and regional economies, even as US/Israeli airpower devastates Iranian military assets ([13:55]).
• Legality and Righteousness Debates:
  • Aaron: Argues the war is illegal, saying, “Aggression is the supreme international crime. That is what Trump undertook here. Even his own intelligence agencies affirmed a year ago, and this hasn't changed, that Iran did not have a nuclear weapons program” ([14:49]).
  • Piers: Counters by stressing Iran's decades-long proxy campaign against the US and Israel, and accuses simplistic narratives from both sides ([17:57]).

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4. New Israeli Law: Death Penalty for Palestinians / Apartheid Allegations (32:50–47:26)

• Piers’ Condemnation:
  Expresses disgust at the Knesset’s new law making the death penalty mandatory for Palestinians convicted of “terror” attacks, with far-right ministers celebrating. He calls out the law’s racist double standard—“It only applies to one ethnic group. How can that be remotely acceptable to anybody?” ([38:27]).
• Aaron: Frames the death penalty law as evidence of “Jewish supremacist” state policy and Zionism’s dark endpoint, tying it to larger patterns of oppression ([32:50]).
• Goldie: Attempts to narrow the law’s scope to October 7 attackers, but Piers clarifies its wider implications and questions her willingness to comment on internal Israeli matters ([36:50]).
• Dr. Mustafa Barghouti (Palestinian political leader, Special Guest, [42:48]):
  “Exactly two different systems of laws for two people living in this on the same land is apartheid. But it is a much worse apartheid than the one that prevailed in South Africa.”
  – Emphasizes the law's collective punishment aspect, asserts 99% conviction rates for Palestinians in Israeli courts, and decries the celebratory tone of Israeli parliamentarians.

Notable Quotes

• “Even in the worst time of South African apartheid system, nobody dared to say that if a black man kills a white man, he will be executed. But if a white man kills a black man, he will not be judged. That's exactly what this Israeli law says.” – Dr. Mustafa Barghouti ([44:43])
• “It's not democracy. I think when you have a two tier legal system, that is not democracy… If there was a law brought in specifically for one ethnic group... all hell would break loose.” – Piers ([45:27])

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Other Memorable Moments

• Civility and Passion: As tempers fray, Piers tries to restore order: “It should be mandatory that in the last three minutes of every uncensored debate, a member of the Young Turks team comes on, you all lose your shit.” ([41:23])
• Reflections on Double Standards: The episode repeatedly circles back to accusations that Western and progressive audiences apply selective outrage depending on politics, with Piers challenging all sides to be more intellectually consistent ([24:22], [29:55]).

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 00:00 – Debate opens: death tolls, evidence, propaganda
• 04:00 – Elika on necessity of regime change
• 06:55 – Anna: “There isn’t a path” for regime change
• 10:48 – Goldie: Iranian regime “now using children to fight”
• 13:55 – Economic fallout and two war fronts
• 14:49 – Aaron: “Aggression is the supreme international crime”
• 21:14–24:22 – Death toll debate, bias, and trust in sources
• 32:50 – Israeli legislation: death penalty for Palestinians
• 42:48 – Dr. Mustafa Barghouti: Israeli apartheid compared to South Africa
• 47:26 – Episode wraps with broader reflections on democracy, justice, and international accountability

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Conclusion

This episode is a tense, unsparing exploration of the shifting sands of Middle East policy and international ethics. The panel lays bare the ideological divides shaping Western foreign policy, the challenges of getting to truth amidst propaganda, and the heavy, ongoing human cost of war and occupation. Piers Morgan demands evidence and consistency, highlighting the real-world ramifications of government actions and public debate, while offering a rare space for competing narratives to directly interrogate each other.

Transcript

[Anna]

There's no evidence that 30,000 people were killed.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Show me the evidence that 30,000 people were Killed. I heard it from your mouth.

[Piers Morgan]

The evidence is there.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Silence. And I'm going to tell you, just wasting.

[Goldie Gamari]

Oh good.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Insults. That's good.

[Piers Morgan]

President Trump says the war in Iran could be over within two or three weeks. The aftershocks, however, even if that is true, will last for years. Trump has told the Telegraph newspaper in the UK that he's now strongly considering a move to, quote, quit NATO altogether. The biggest military alliance in human history is a paper tiger, he said, and Putin knows that too. In a prescient interview, this is what the former NATO commander, General Sir Richard Sheriff said to me, that Donald Trump has pretty much single handedly torpedoed NATO as an alliance. Two months ago, Donald Trump threatened to attack the territory of a NATO ally, Denmark, over Greenland. Nobody has forgotten that. Europeans will not forget that. That is a grotesque breach of trust. I think the special relationship is a fantasy put about by my so so peers, by the media and politicians. Well, just about everybody agrees that NATO and Europe have been complacent about living in the comfort of US security. That's why, at Trump's insistence, they're all ramping up spending and so they should. But just about everybody also agrees that both America and Europe are significantly weaker on their own. NATO and its member countries have refused to join the Iran war for very sound reasons. First and foremost, it's a defensive alliance. It was created to maintain peace, not create war. Second, by any reasonable definition, the Iran war is to many people an illegal one. If there was evidence of an imminent threat and a right to self defense, we've yet to be presented with it. Many people in my country and across Europe are asking, why should our men and women risk their lives for a wall to that? You began without coherently explaining why. The so called paper tiger has been ready to support the United States on countless occasions. Thirteen countries mobilized after 911 and fought alongside the US for 20 years in Afghanistan. European allies supplied 30% of the airstrikes in the fight against ISIS. They share intelligence and assets all over the world. They were there in the Gulf War, they were even in the US after Hurricane Katrina. Trump is threatening to walk away and leave the global oil spike in chaos because he says the US has plenty of its own resources. Well, that would leave America's closest ally stranded, with a notable exception of Israel, which has no intention of ending hostilities anytime soon. It would also leave the Iranian people stranded. For all the talk of liberation and Trump to The rescue. They'll be living under the same regime, weakened but angrier than ever. Joining me to debate all this, attorney and Iranian American activist Elika Lebon Aramate, the journalist with the Grey Zone, Iranian Canadian activist and former MP Goldie Gamari and Anikas Berrian, the host and executive producer of the Young Turks. Well, welcome to all of you. ELIKA lebon, I honestly can't keep up with where we are with this war, other than I read somewhere today, I think Axios reported this, that one of the Trump administration has said Trump isn't playing 3D chess, he's playing 12D chess, and that he basically throws out all these contradictory things because he wants to keep the enemy guessing. Now, maybe that's true, but it might also be, I would offer up as an alternative theory, that he's got himself into something that he quickly has realized is not a good idea. Not because taking out the Iranian regime is not a sound idea in principle, but. Or they've been in an appalling repressive regime, but not a good idea because the Iranians have hit back in a way, I think that they've been taken by surprised by the scale of it economically, by closing Australia, Hormuz, by attacking the Gulf states, and that the combined effect of this has been a shuddering shock to the global economy. And so Trump wants out, and yet it's very difficult to see how he gets out with a convincing claim of victory. So those are the theories. What's your view?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I mean, at the end of the day, my view from the very beginning and still my view to this day is that this operation, whatever it is, has to be seen through to the end because the worst case scenario is that this war ends and the regime is still in power. That's worse than if the war never happened at all. And so in terms of what I'm here to do or what Goldie is here to do is represent these sentiments of the Iranian people and how we feel about what these military strikes are doing, which are targeting an oppressive regime that has been know has been oppressing the Iranian people for 47 years. In terms of the military strategy, that's not really within our purview. The only thing that we can do is trust that the United States government knows what it's doing and has an effective plan to remove this regime.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, but explain this to me. I get that. But let me just ask you this. Donald Trump said yesterday that the mission of making it impossible for Iran to develop a nuclear weapon had now been achieved which seems to be where he's edging now as the sort of totality justification for the action he took. But there's one problem, is that all the enriched uranium remains untouched underground in Iran. The capacity to develop that into a nuclear weapon remains exactly as it was before this war was started. So I don't understand how Donald Trump or anybody, frankly, can claim that they have stopped Iran from being able to develop a nuclear weapon when all the tools they need remain exactly where they were before it started.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Well, that's the question that's on everybody's mind, right? The only thing that we've ever asked is for this war to go to completion and for this regime to be removed. It was never in our imagination that you would stop at the point that their nuclear capabilities were decapitated. We were told that the end of this war would be when this regime fell. That uncompromising surrender, that's the only ambition that we were ever told. So I don't know what to tell you about this falling short at just one.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, okay, I'm going to bring the others in. I mean, Annika Spoen, that's really interesting because, you know, Ellica's reflecting there what so many people are thinking, which is the goalposts have changed so often. You know, it was early on this was going to be regime change. And they thought by decapitating the top of the regime, killing the ayatollah and a lot of the top people, then naturally, and apparently this was what the Israelis told the Americans. There will be uprisings and the regime will topple. None of that has happened. So they've now moved, it seems to me, to a different, like, game plan, which is actually what we meant all along was degrading their military and stopping them building a nuke. They've done the first. That has to be accepted. They've massively degraded the Iranian military. But they've come nowhere near to stopping them developing a nuclear weapon if Iran chooses to, because the uranium is still there.

[Anna]

Unfortunately, you have two different countries that are involved in this effort to, I guess, either topple the regime in Iran, which isn't going to happen, or, you know, degrade Iran's military capabilities and ability to build nuclear weapons. For the Israelis, it was never, ever about nuclear weapons. It was never about degrading Iran's military capabilities. It was always about regime change for them. But in order to build consent or manufacture consent among the American people for a war that we all knew was gonna be a disaster, the American people were fed lies and all sorts of fear mongering about how Iran is such a threat that we need to get involved and we need to disarm the Iranians. Okay, how is that working out for us? There was no strategic military plan in place. Elika is on the propaganda wing and she's like, I don't know. It's not my job to think about the military strategy. No, Elica, it is your job to think about military strategy because you're advocating for something that's gonna get American soldiers killed. It's gonna get innocent civilians killed. In fact, that's happening right now as we speak. And so you should ask yourself, is there really a reliable path here, a militaristic that's going to secure what I personally want, which is regime change? And honestly, there isn't a path. There isn't a path. First of all, I don't have a path because I've analyzed situation and realized Iran has a formidable military and that you just said it's your soldiers in jeopardy by taking them over there. I didn't know. And you're interrupting me. Why are you interrupting me? Pierce, are you going to intervene? Because she's interrupting me.

[Piers Morgan]

Yes, I think that's fair comment. You shouldn't interrupt each other because we can't hear either of you when you do so.

[Anna]

I appreciate it. It is important to ask yourself, as you're advocating for military action, whether or not that military action is going to secure the gains that you're advocating for. And if you looked at the landscape, if you looked at the terrain in Iran, if you looked at what Iran is capable of doing, the fact that they control the Strait of Hormuz, you would think about all these elements before spouting off about getting the United States involved in a war that isn't going to secure what you think it's gonna secure. There isn't gonna be regime change in Iran. And by the way, I think it's disgusting that we are dragged into a war on behalf of a foreign country that does not plan to put any of their boots on the ground. Not a single IDF soldier is planning on the ground.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, that's a really interesting point. Let me bring in Goldie Gamari. Welcome back to Uncensored because it seems to me, look, I'm not a military expert, but a lot of my family have served at high level in the British military. And there is only one way to get that enriched uranium. And therefore be sure that you can prevent Iran in the future developing a nuclear weapon because they're very advanced. As it is with this uranium. And the only way you can do it is with ground forces. The problem is it's incredibly dangerous, that operation, because of the terrain there, because of the way you would have to do it, because of the embedded defenses that the Iranians clearly have, the drones they have, and so on. This could very quickly, if America tried to do this. And I think it's perfectly reasonable, Ivana, to point out so far there's no suggestion the IDF will join this, even though it's clear from Marco Rubio's own mouth that America went into this because the Israelis said, we're doing it with or without you. If it becomes a ground war, this could become very quickly disastrous. I mean, do you accept there's that risk here?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I didn't expect this. TikTok has more short dramas than I could ever finish. Each episode leaves you wanting the next.

[Anna]

Download TikTok now and try it.

[Goldie Gamari]

There's always a risk in everything that happens. But, I mean, ultimately, we're dealing with the most powerful military in the world, the US Military. Their intelligence is top notch. President Trump himself has said that the reason that he decided to begin this, as he calls it, an excursion into Iran, is not because of Israel. It's because he assessed the threats to the United States. And, you know, obviously the commander in chief of the United States of America has way more intelligence information than, you know, just random podcasters on YouTube. So, you know, I trust President Trump, I trust his analysis. And Pete Hegseth has also said that the vast majority of the Islamic regime's ground forces has been destroyed. Their drones, their missiles, everything. So the only thing that's really left of the Islamic regime is just their paramilitary forces. In fact, they're so weak that they're now not only bringing militia groups from Iraq, but they're now actually conscripting 12 year old children, which is a war crime. So the Islamic regime is now using children to fight.

[Piers Morgan]

But he said that week. All right, let's take for a moment, let's take for a moment your premise that they've been almost obliterated, which I keep hearing, okay, but from where I'm looking, the regime has not been displaced. I mean, Donald Trump this morning put out a new post on Truth Social saying Iran's new president, much less radicalized and far more intelligent than his predecessors, has just asked the United States of America for a ceasefire. We will consider when the hormoz rate is open, free and clear. Until then, we're blazing Iran into oblivion. Or as they say, back to The Stone Ages, his usual hyperbolic rhetoric. But there's no. We don't know who he's talking about, by the way, because no one's come forward from the Iranian side to say, yes, that's me, and we are talking to the Americans.

[Goldie Gamari]

And Piers, I think that's actually very funny, because as far as we knew, the president was Pisishkin. If President Trump is saying that there is a new president, does that mean Pisishkin has been obliterated?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, that's why I said. Well, that's why I said, you know, we don't know who this guy is. We don't know that he's much less radicalized because we have no idea who it is or that he's more intelligent than his predecessors. It could just be Trump playing games, trying to divide and rule with the irgc. That's highly likely, I would think, and maybe that's an effective tactic. Maybe that's an effective tactic. We shall see with all these things, once a war starts, it's very, very difficult to predict how this plays out. But what I would say about the strength of the American military is there's been an asymmetric war going on here. And I'll bring Aaron in here. The asymmetric war is that you've got the American and Israeli combined, incredibly powerful military, the most powerful military we've ever seen in this planet, waging merry hell across the skies of Tehran. But at the same time, the Iranians, like I said earlier, very skillfully and with great cunning, it has to be said, doing a very effective job in economically strangling the world through the Strait of Hormuz, and also strangling the economies of the Gulf states, its neighbors, by attacking refineries, by attacking tourist areas, and so on. This has been very effective, I think far more effective than the Americans and Israelis thought may happen. So you've got two wars going on here, and my guess is because of the pain that's happening at the gas station prices, food prices to come because fertilizer's been shut, and so on, you're going to see a lot of fallout from this all summer. You've got the midterm elections in America in November. Donald Trump is many things, but he's not politically stupid. He will know that they could take an absolute beating in the midterms and render him a lame duck if he doesn't do something to resolve where he is right now. I think he wants out, which is why he keeps talking about two to three weeks. I'm Gone and whatever. What do you feel?

[Aaron]

I think his foremost concern right now is calming the markets, and that's why he keeps saying that he's having these great talks and they're getting somewhere and he's going to wrap this up really soon. I can't divine what's in his head anymore. I used to think he had smart political instincts, but I think going to war against Iran in a completely unjust, unprovoked fashion has blown up that impression for me. And there's a debate going on right now that we're having about whether or not the Trump Netanyahu war in Iran is effective. I think we're missing a more fundamental question. Is it right? Is it just? And the fact that Iran is waging asymmetrical warfare underscores a really important point. It's the weaker party militarily which underscores. It's not a threat to anyone. Trump went to war because Iran acts as a deterrent to US And Israeli hegemony in the region. That's not a threat to anyone's security. It's a threat to domination. And that's why Iran is being subjected to these attacks. And it's whether or not Trump can achieve his goals or not, it doesn't obscure the fact that it's fundamentally illegal under the standards of the Nuremberg trials. Aggression is the supreme international crime. That is what Trump undertook here. Even his own intelligence agencies affirmed a year ago, and this hasn't changed that. Iran did not have a nuclear weapons program. It limited its missile ranges at best, they said, by 28.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, but hang on to that point, because we do know they were clearly lying about the capacity of their missiles. Right. They fired a missile only last week, which went twice as far. Ballistic missile. Twice as far as they had said that their missiles were capable of going. It actually. It didn't actually land on its target, but the distance it traveled would mean it could potentially get to Europe, it could get to London, to Paris, whatever that is. In direct contradiction, the undertakings Iran had given about the distances where its missiles could go. So they've clearly been lying.

[Aaron]

Well, not necessarily, because first of all, even NATO said we can't confirm that Iran fired that missile. So I'm not even sure that it was wrong. But let's say it was Iran. If it was Iran, then it's quite possible they put on.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, who else found it?

[Aaron]

Well, listen, I wouldn't put anything past Israel. They carry out all sorts of nefarious acts all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a false flag. Listen, let's assume it was Iran.

[Piers Morgan]

Hang on, hang on, Aaron. You're expecting me, you're expecting me to believe that Israel deliberately fired a ballistic missile at an American base?

[Anna]

Yeah, yeah, that happens. That happens. Believe it or not, that has happened in the past.

[Aaron]

Yeah, Israel, Israel decades ago attacked the USS Liberty, killed a bunch of US soldiers. So actually I wouldn't put it past them. Listen, let's assume it was Iran. Let's assume it was Iran. Hold on a second. I'll just finish this point. I'll finish this point.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

It's possible.

[Aaron]

If it was Iran, if I can finish this point, it's possible they put a smaller payload on the missile, which means it can travel further. And regardless. Look, this whole debate is skewed because Iran is defending itself against an act of unprovoked aggression, an act that is not targeting the quote unquote regime. It's hitting schools. They massacred over 150 girls in the opening hours of this unprovoked war. They're hitting pharmaceuticals that make medicines. On this point, they're hitting residential buildings.

[Piers Morgan]

But Aaron. Okay, but look, I have serious misgivings about this war and have done from the start. I do not think that Iran had an imminent capacity to have a nuclear weapon or to use one. I think that is nonsense and also fires completely in the face of what we were told after the 12 Day War last summer. We were told that whole capacity had been destroyed. Anyway, none of that makes any sense to me. But the idea that Iran had never provoked either Israel or the United States, I mean, that is also patently disingenuous because Iran for the last few decades has systematically waged a campaign of terror through the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas and other proxies against Israel. It's Ayatollah has led the chance of death to America. Death to Americans. They have killed, I think more Americans than any other nation in the world. Right. In the last 47 years. So this idea that this has all happened out of nowhere, you know, I just think is disingenuous.

[Aaron]

I think the fundamental problem in the region is that you have an Israeli government that gives itself the right to displace the indigenous Palestinians, steal their land and deny them a homeland. And Iran on that question has been far more accommodating than Israel and the US have in terms of accepting the international framework for the Israel Palestine issue. Iran has said that they would support the Arab Peace initiative which offered Israel full normalization if it allowed Palestinians to have a state in just 22% of historic Palestine. Iran has cooperated with the US in the past. You mentioned earlier that Trump is turning his back on NATO. And NATO helped the U.S. in Afghanistan. So did Iran. Iran provided critical intelligence to the US that helped the US Capture fighters from Al Qaeda and the Taliban. And that was blown up when George W. Bush gave a speech declaring Iran to be a part of the axis of evil. The US Ambassador, Ryan Crocker, said that seriously undermined Iran's cooperation, which was very, very fruitful. And there have been so many more diplomatic initiatives since. Iran sent Bush a letter offering to resolve all these issues. Bush ignored it. There was the Iran nuclear deal, which even Trump's own administration certified that Iran was. Was complying with.

[Piers Morgan]

What about the slaughter of thousands of protesters, including many completely innocent civilians, on the streets of Iran in January, for example? Because the noise from the left, I have to say, was pretty. I'm not accusing you or Anna. I don't know what you both said about it at the time. You can enlighten me. But there was a definite.

[Anna]

Well, I'll tell you what I said.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, hang on. There was a.

[Anna]

Don't speak. Don't speak for me. It didn't come to my mouth.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

No, I actually remember very well.

[Anna]

Sorry.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm actually talking about.

[Anna]

To say.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Say about 30,000 people were killed. I heard it from your mouth.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay.

[Anna]

There's no evidence that 30,000 people were killed. Show me the evidence.

[Piers Morgan]

How many do you think were killed?

[Anna]

You want me to tell you? You want me to tell you? Yeah, go ahead.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I can tell you the source. I can tell you the source. Because how quickly you believe a terrorist regime, but you don't believe.

[Anna]

Just give me the source. I don't need to. I'm going to tell you right now.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I'm going to tell you right now. Violence. And I'm going to tell you. Every single hospital in every single city in Iran gave a tally of how many corpses were in their beds. In total, that amounted to 36,500 people. And that didn't include the.

[Anna]

What is your source? What source compiled those numbers?

[Piers Morgan]

Hospital.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

The hospital?

[Anna]

Every hospital. Okay, so you yourself talk to every single hospital.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I saw the list. I saw the list of every hospital with every.

[Anna]

You saw the list?

[Piers Morgan]

Google it.

[Anna]

Who publish the list?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Who published everywhere? Human rights. Oh, it's organization.

[Anna]

You should know the source. You should memorize that. I'm telling you.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, but you know what's interesting? Okay, hang on. You know what's interesting, Anna? Yeah. You're Having this complete reverse. You're having the complete reverse.

[Anna]

No, I'm not.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Well, I'm not.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, I'm gonna explain.

[Anna]

The New York Times just published a piece on this that I hope.

[Piers Morgan]

My question yet.

[Anna]

That I hope you read.

[Piers Morgan]

You haven't heard my question yet.

[Anna]

Right. You care about the deaths in Palestine, but you don't care about the Iranian people. I do care about the.

[Piers Morgan]

Hang on. You got utterly enraged when people questioned the number of people who'd been killed in Gaza, rightly, because it turned out those numbers were broadly accurate, have now been admitted by Israel, and yet here you are doing exactly what so many Israeli guests did on this show about the deaths in Gaza. You're just refusing to believe any of the numbers coming out of the thing. So my question for you would be, well, if it wasn't 30,000, then how many do you think were killed?

[Anna]

I don't know. I don't know. Exactly.

[Piers Morgan]

So how do you know it wasn't 30,000? Sorry, hang on. Sorry again.

[Anna]

If you're gonna ask a question, let me answer it. Let me answer my question.

[Piers Morgan]

I am moderating this, Anna.

[Anna]

I know. Let me answer the question.

[Piers Morgan]

My point being, the very question that I used to ask all the Israeli guests who would try and cast aspersions. I know is the same question.

[Anna]

Let me explain myself.

[Piers Morgan]

Same questions for you. Which is, if you don't know, how. How'd you know it wasn't 30,000?

[Anna]

Okay, let me explain it, okay?

[Piers Morgan]

You don't know.

[Anna]

No, Pierce, let me explain it. Okay? When it comes to Gaza, the Gaza Health Ministry, historically, you look at the history, they have historically been accurate and very careful when they publish death tolls, okay? They're always confirmed. In fact, oftentimes, they're an underestimate. So I know to trust the Gaza Health Ministry because of its history of publishing accurate data. In the case of. Of Iran, we know a few things. We know because so many American former government officials and current government officials and the Israeli media were literally bragging about putting Mossad on the ground, arming people. And that's why so many of the law enforcement or police officers, security forces in Iran were also killed. Okay? There's a lot of disinformation coming out, and there are different sources publishing different information about the death toll, which is why. I don't know. I have not found a source.

[Piers Morgan]

Right, and yet you are.

[Anna]

He's giving me accurate data.

[Piers Morgan]

No, but, Anna, Anna, again, I would use the same questioning I did to people about Gaza.

[Anna]

How many of them were killed by Mossad operatives, How many of them were actually killed by Israel?

[Piers Morgan]

I'm not asking you that. No, no. I'm simply saying. I'm simply saying once you've admitted you have no idea how many were killed, I find it extraordinary that you would be so emphatic in refuting the 30,000 number. You don't know.

[Anna]

You think 30,000 people slaughtered in one week.

[Piers Morgan]

I think it could easily happen from the scenes I was looking at.

[Anna]

I don't.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, you don't believe it. Okay. But I don't believe, given that you've admitted you don't know, you don't know. Let me come back to. Let me come back to Elika. You know, I have noticed there's been a. I think there has been a double standard here from people on the left who I respect, where they seem to care an awful lot more about Palestinians being killed in Gaza, which I also shared their care about, and the protesters killed in Tehran at the start of the year. And it was deafening. It was deafening. And Hollywood was deafening by its silence, too. And I just think that that's another thing that is just wrong about this. It's intellectually dishonest to people, right? To pick and choose, which is.

[Anna]

You know what's dishonest, Piers? The fact that. Can I just dump him now? Iranians are getting killed right now. Civilians are getting targeted right now. This war began, okay, With a hundred. What? How many? 175 people getting slaughtered at an elementary school. Elica, you got anything to say about that? Do your people feel liberated?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I do, absolutely.

[Anna]

You don't live in Iran. You've never lived in Iran and you have to. I've been many times to talk about this as if it's the liberation of the Iranians. I've been many times. As they're getting killed, as their hospitals are being bombed, as healthcare workers are being killed. Disgusting.

[Piers Morgan]

Go ahead, let Elika respond. Elika, respond.

[Anna]

I'm not going to shut.

[Piers Morgan]

Will you let her respond? Because you asked me to stop her interrupting you. So I'm now saying to you.

[Anna]

Okay, go ahead, Ella, speak, please. Go ahead.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

When you talk about the Hamas run Gaza health Ministry, you say their numbers have historically been accurate. Well, did they ever separate?

[Anna]

You're just separate.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Oh, good. Insults. That's good. Did they ever separate civilians from combatants? They didn't. And in the end we discovered that that number did include many combatants.

[Anna]

Okay, the idea is actually, you know, their numbers.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

That's good.

[Anna]

83% civilians.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Are you going to interrupt? Actually, hamas said that 50,000 of them were combatants. Regardless, you are quick to trust the Hamas run health ministry, which just shows who you trust, right? Which is terrorist regimes. Second of all, you sat there just right now and said 160, 178 schoolchildren were killed. First of all, you said nothing about the hundreds of children that were killed on January 8 and January 9 by the regime. And second of all, did you get that number from. The only people who have confirmed that number is the regime. Is the regime. And that just goes to show.

[Anna]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. Are you denying that 175 people were slaughtered in that school? Are you denying it? Are you denying it?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point.

[Anna]

You did deny. Let me finish my point.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Are you going to let me finish my point? There absolutely were children killed in that strike. How many? We don't know because the only people who have confirmed it is the regime.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, but again, Elika. Okay, well, now, let me. Now hang on.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Let me finish.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me jump in there, because you're now doing. You're now doing. Exactly. Sorry, you're.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Now, if you let me. Pierce, if you let me finish my

[Piers Morgan]

point, we know how many children were killed. We know how many were at the school.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

What I'm saying, Piers, let me finish my point and you'll see what I'm saying, okay? I'm not saying what's real, and I'm not saying what's not real. Here is the point that I'm making. When the people, okay, tell you something, doctors, witnesses, eyewitnesses on the ground tell you something, okay? It is questioned. When the regime says something, it is believed. So what I'm saying is that I'm pointing out to the hypocrisy of how easily they believe regimes, which they might be true. It might be true.

[Piers Morgan]

But, you know, the trouble is, again, again, you're both. You're both basically casting doubt over the death toll numbers.

[Anna]

It's not about casting doubt.

[Piers Morgan]

You're both casting doubt over the death toll numbers of the other side. And that's my point about intellectual. It's about showing dishonesty. I don't think it's honest to do that. I mean, in relation to the attack on the school, it's pretty obvious to anybody what has happened there.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

We know that people were.

[Piers Morgan]

We know why it was. It used to be. Let me finish my point, please. It used to be part of an IRGC compound. Then it was moved out several years ago to be just outside the compound. I suspect they clearly deliberately attacked the compound and the missile was slightly off and hit the school and killed over 160, 70 young schoolgirls at school. It was a disgusting thing to happen. And what America should have done, what President Trump should have done is just immediately had the investigation concluded it immediately. They know. They know if one of their missiles is hit that school or not. They knew immediately. And they should just say, we made a terrible mistake. We were aiming for the compound next to it. We hit the school. Terrible things happen in war. Terrible mistakes happen in war. We are owning this mistake. I would respect any country that says that when that kind of thing happens enormously more than I respect the obfuscating and disingenuous bullshit we've heard about the attack on that school. Right?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Absolutely. But, Piers, that's not the point. The point is that how quickly people run with numbers provided by a regime that historically, historically does nothing but disseminate propaganda, and how quickly they question the words of the. The witnesses of people who have seen this massacre on the ground, that shows you. That shows you who they defer to. And that is what's worrying.

[Piers Morgan]

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[Aaron]

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[Piers Morgan]

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[Aaron]

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[Piers Morgan]

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[Aaron]

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[Piers Morgan]

Okay, let's just make a point here.

[Aaron]

Iran published. The government published a list of people that it says were killed during those protests. If people think that that list is false, what they can do is they're

[Piers Morgan]

either alive or dead.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

There has been. There has been.

[Piers Morgan]

You know what? They're either alive or dead. And it will be verified. And my guess is that many thousands were killed. Exactly how many thousands? I don't know. I'm intellectually honest enough to say I don't know, but I certainly. Because I don't know. I'm not in a position to emphatically deny any figure because I don't know. Let's just turn. I want to turn to another.

[Anna]

Hang on.

[Piers Morgan]

Listen.

[Anna]

We're running out of time because those numbers are ridiculous.

[Piers Morgan]

I want to. I want to turn.

[Anna]

Those numbers are ridiculous.

[Piers Morgan]

I want to turn to another 40,000.

[Anna]

To 40,000.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, we've done the ridiculous numbers.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

All right, stop talking, please. Because you're anointed.

[Piers Morgan]

I want to change the subject and bring Aaron in here. All right, Aaron, I want to talk about this extraordinary thing yesterday where Israel's parliament approved a law that would make the death penalty the default sentence for Palestinians convicted of what they regard as deadly terror attacks. The legislation was pushed by the far right with Ben gvir, the National Security Minister, its driving force after the vote. And I found this particularly sickening. He was seeing opening bottles of champagne and celebrating posting on X. We made history, we promised, we delivered. And I just found this, I have to be honest, completely repellent. I find Ben GVIR and Smodrich repellent. Anyway, I think they are unbelievably far right. I think they have dragged Israel into very dark places, this Israeli government. And I think that this is indicative of what I mean by that. The death penalty has existed but not been used in Israel for decades. They're bringing it back only for Palestinians who they deem guilty of terrorism. Some will have committed acts of terror. Others are furiously disputed by the Palestinian side. So it's an arguable point, and we'll have to see who they decide they're going to kill. Ben Gibba and others were wearing nooses as badge lapels on their suit. It was sickening. But also they're saying it won't apply to Israelis. Right. So you won't have Israelis being killed under this new law in Israel because of course they're not going to convict any of their own for any act of terrorism, even though many other people view a lot of the behavior by some of the more rogue elements of the IDF to be acts of terrorism. So there's a terrible double standard there, which. And the way they, Ben Giver and others have been celebrating is sickening for anybody. Right. Whoever you are, what's your view of this?

[Aaron]

Yeah, and this is the government that working class American soldiers are being forced to die for. Nobody signed up to defend this fanatical Jewish supremacist state. But yet this is what people are being sent off to West Asia to defend and to die on behalf of. And as Anna pointed out, the Israeli military weren't even sending its own ground forces. And if there is a ground invasion of Iran, this is what the Israeli government is. People like to think there was maybe an earlier time when the Israeli government was more liberal and things have gone the wrong way. Well, when you found your country on ethnic cleansing, when you claim that there's a divine right to steal land from somebody else, when you establish an Apartheid regime that privileges one group, Jews, over another, Palestinians. This is what is going to happen. This is the inevitable result of Zionism and it's what so many people around the world now are waking up to as being just incompatible with any basic standards of humanity. But yet we're constantly told by all of our leaders that Israel is a top ally, they share our values. Well, these aren't my values and these aren't the values I think of most decent minded people. So what you're seeing now, I think because of Israel's actions, and it's not just, it goes far beyond this measure, we've just seen more than two years of a mass murder campaign against the defenseless civilian population in Gaza, which is ongoing. And also you're seeing concurrent acts of terror every single day by Jewish settlers backed by Israeli soldiers in the occupied West Bank. People are waking up against this and global opinion.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, look, I would agree with you, I would agree with you on the settler point. I think there's been some outrageous aggression by Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the last few months. I would take issue again just with the way you characterize the defenseless civilians in Gaza. Of course, they're surrounded by Hamas terrorists who committed one of the worst acts of terrorism in Modern Times on October 7th and are still embedded all around civilians and had been from the start of this war. So they're not, you know, if you're being honest again about what's happening in Gaza, they're not defenseless. I think it's gone way too far what's happened in Gaza. I think the initial defense I made of Israel's right to defend itself, its duty to defend itself and its population has been just desecrated by the scale of what has gone on there. And the fact they still won't let journalists in to verify what has gone on there says everything to me. It says they know what they've done does not live up to their claim to be the most moral army in the world. They've done stuff so bad they won't let journalists in to look at it. And so, you know, that's my view about it. But I think the idea that no one has been there, armed in Gaza, able to fire back, obviously they have. That's what Hamas have been doing.

[Aaron]

I say they couldn't fire back. I said they can't defend themselves from one of the most sophisticated armies in the world dropping 2,000 pound bombs on residential areas and destroying them.

[Piers Morgan]

No, I get that. But the truth is that war went on for a long Time. Because actually there was a lot coming back the other way too. Right. So I agree with you. I don't disagree with your overall point. It's just language is quite important. Let me bring in.

[Aaron]

I agree.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring in. Let me say one more. I want to bring in Goldie on this point. You know, Goldie, you can defend Israel, Israel's government and so on. I hate the way people conflate the actions of the government with Israeli people or Jewish people. To me, it's a ridiculous thing to do, so anti Semitic to hold the Israeli government to account whether this, this right wing and doing such terrible things. You know, when I looked at what Ben GVIR was doing there, right there, you know, I think I posted this on X. This is despicable. Despicable to see a senior government minister of any supposedly civilized country cracking the champagne open at the thought of killing people. Whatever your argument about the people that they're going to put to death wearing nooses on the thing that they've gone back hundreds of years into the wild west, you know, this is wrong, isn't it? Can you condemn this?

[Goldie Gamari]

I mean, my understanding of this law is that it is limited to Palestinians and Hamas terrorists who were specifically. Sorry. Who were specifically involved in the October 7th attack. So this is basically a law that's only for that particular incident. With respect to internal Israeli politics, I mean, I don't really comment on internal politics. Not really. Not really my thing. I mean, I would you do for Iran. So. Yeah, because I'm Iranian, of course I comment on Iran. I'm Iranian.

[Anna]

Okay, well, you're not American trying to drag America into war cycle that you want America to fight.

[Goldie Gamari]

Why are you commenting on Iran? You're not Iran.

[Anna]

Okay, then how about you leave America out of it? You want to comment on Iran, that's fine. But demanding that American soldiers die on behalf of your little agenda is little disrespectful, isn't it?

[Goldie Gamari]

I think it's absolutely insane that you think that I have anything to do with President Trump's decision to go in and destroy the Islamic regime. I think you're absolutely.

[Anna]

I mean, he takes counsel from the likes of Lord Boomer, so you never know. You never know.

[Goldie Gamari]

I have nothing else to say.

[Anna]

I'd actually like to go back to someone who has substance to say, we'll

[Piers Morgan]

come to you about this issue. But I just want to finish one point with Goldie. It's not true that this only applies to Palestinians who were involved in October 7th. It doesn't so that's not.

[Goldie Gamari]

If that's the case then, I mean, as a former parliamentarian, I probably wouldn't be, you know, sipping champagne and celebrating. I think, you know, it's, it's a very grave.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, especially a law that only applies to one situation.

[Goldie Gamari]

So I mean, I would not.

[Piers Morgan]

But it only applies to one ethnic group. Right. I mean, how can that be remotely acceptable to anybody?

[Goldie Gamari]

I'd have to go look at, I mean, I'd have to go look at that legislation. But ultimately, I mean this is what they voted for. So it's, it's their internal affairs and their sovereign state and.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, and you know what we're perfectly

[Goldie Gamari]

entitled to call it, you know, after, after what happened on October 7, I can see why there's a lot of, of, you know, passion around this situation.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay. Alec has dropped off. I don't know why. I wish people wouldn't do that or at least at least say they're going to do it. Yeah. Oh, it's technical issue. All right. I hope it was.

[Anna]

Anna, may I jump in?

[Piers Morgan]

Thank you, Peter. Final point to you.

[Anna]

I appreciate that. So look, in regard to that law that just passed in Israel, it isn't just the fact that it goes along with the existing apartheid state of Israel where Palestinians are treated as subhumans. It's also the fact that Palestinians are tried in these kangaroo courts, basically military courts that have a 96% conviction rate. And often these so called admissions of guilt are secured under duress, under torture. And so a lot of innocent people are going to be hanged. And that's the whole point of the law that just passed. That's why the terrorists within the Knesset, the Ben gvirs, the Basil El Smotriches, they were celebrating specifically because of the fact that they know that they're going to have some legal path to justify the slaughter of more innocent Palestinian individuals. That's what's going on. And can we just have Aaron say one last thing? Because Aaron's reporting on what happened to a toddler, a Palestinian toddler who was detained alongside his father in central Gaza is something that people really need to know about. Aaron, can you just briefly talk about that? Cuz I want people to know about what's going on.

[Aaron]

Hannah, you're giving me too much credit. Cause I haven't really done anything on this. But I do know the basic fact that there was a toddler seized in central Gaza along with his father and he came back with burn marks.

[Piers Morgan]

And the doctor said the last report I saw about this, Sorry, the last Thing I said was that that had been. That had. Was erroneous, that reporting. And it was, it was denied. And then the verified reporting came. But I think that it was not true.

[Aaron]

Okay, well, I haven't seen that, but what I saw.

[Piers Morgan]

We'll look into it. My understanding is the point is Israel slaughtered.

[Aaron]

Israel slaughtered thousands of Palestinian children. The Washington Post, actually, but we're moving

[Piers Morgan]

into a different list of. Okay, we're moving.

[Aaron]

This is totally.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

I wish you guys.

[Piers Morgan]

I don't want to move into other more general arguments about it.

[Anna]

They're getting slaughtered right now. They're getting slaughtered right now.

[Goldie Gamari]

Right now.

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

Right now.

[Anna]

Right now. Because of what you want. Because of what you want. Because of what you want. You're disgusting.

[Piers Morgan]

It should be mandatory that in the last three minutes of every uncensored debate a member of the Young Turks team comes on, you all lose your shit.

[Anna]

Yeah, how can I not?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, it is possible to end on a more civilized manner and just accept it's really difficult. Well, you have different opinions, you know, that's why I get your body on with different opinions.

[Anna]

But we should never lose our basic sense in.

[Piers Morgan]

We shouldn't lose our sense of civility when we debate things because that way.

[Anna]

My best lifetime.

[Piers Morgan]

Anyway, it's always good to have you. Thank you to my panel. I appreciate it. And to Elica, who apparently was tech issues. Well, joining me now is the Palestinian political leader, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti. Welcome back to Uncensored. I just want to just read what you published on X. You said the Israeli Knesset's approval of a law allowing the execution of Palestinian prisoners is a racist, fascist and dangerous escalation that directly threatens thousands of Palestinian detainees and further entrenches Israel's apartheid system and policy of collective punishment. And that comes along with Amnesty International who said the law creates a dual legal system because Palestinians in the west bank face a death penalty as a default in military courts. Well, Israeli settlers in the same territory are tried in civilian courts where the penalty is discretionary and harder to apply. So there is a two tier legal system clearly being established here. What is your response to this?

[Elika Lebon Aramate]

This?

[Dr. Mustafa Barghouti]

Well, exactly two different systems of laws for two people living in this on the same land is apartheid. That's how you classify and identify apartheid. But it is a much worse apartheid than the one that prevailed in South Africa. Even in the worst time of South African apartheid system, nobody dared to say that if a black man kills a white man, he will be executed. But if a white man kills a black man, he will not be judged. That's exactly what this Israeli law says. It's. First of all, it's illegal by international law because Israel has no jurisdiction over occupied territories, as international law says. Second, it is legalizing what is already going on of executing Palestinians. You know, since October 7th, in Israeli jails in the west bank And in Israel, 90 Palestinian detainees have already been killed either by torture, either by starvation, or by deprivation of medical treatment. And more than that, to prove that it is a system of discrimination, there are two very interesting figures. 99% of Palestinian cases taken to Israeli courts are convicted. 99%. While 96% of any Israelis attacking Palestinians or conducting violence will never be convicted. As a matter of fact, out of 10,000 cases of Israeli terrorists, settlers, gangs attacking Palestinians, out of 10,000 cases, only eight were convicted. So clearly this is a system of discrimination. But more than that, I said that this law shows how far and how fast the Israeli establishment has gone in the direction of fascism. Imagine not only they pass such a terrible law, which is considered a war crime by international community, but more than that, they are celebrating it, drinking drinks, celebrating the passage of the law and putting on their chests, men and women, Israeli members of the Parliament, putting on their chest, whether they are men or women, symbols and pins of hanged men's knots, the rope that they will use to hang Palestine.

[Piers Morgan]

It was disgusting.

[Dr. Mustafa Barghouti]

Totally. And more than that, is that the Israeli, that Israel, that some Western governments say it's the only democracy in the Middle east, is this democracy?

[Piers Morgan]

Well, it's not democracy. I think when you have a two tier legal system, that is not democracy. You know, I live in an actual democracy here in the UK and everybody is treated the same way under the law. There is no two tier law. If there was a law brought in specifically for one ethnic group that didn't apply to others, all hell would break loose. And yet this seems to have been widely accepted and applauded by most of the Israeli population, according to the polls I've seen.

[Dr. Mustafa Barghouti]

And that's what worries me more than anything else. It's not just the Israeli government that has moved towards fascism. It's not just the Israeli governing establishment, including 2/3 of the Israeli members of the Knesset, the Israeli Jewish members of the Knesset, but it's the whole society, 90% of the society supports the war now. And the vast majority support such a terrible law that is dangerous. If I was an Israeli, I would worry very much. Because this fascism will not only hurt Palestinians and kill Palestinians as they are doing, it will eat up Israel from within. And that's why some people in Israel are protesting, because fascism is never good for anybody. And this fascism would not have grown so fast and so big if it wasn't for the world's abstention from establishing sanctions on Israel for committing genocide, for committing collective punishment and starvation against the people of Gaza, for allowing Israeli terrorist gangs to move around and attack every day, 10 to 12 communities, burning houses, burning cars, shooting people. That's the result of the. Of the weakness of the international community and the absence of sanctions on Israel.

[Piers Morgan]

Mustafa Barghouti, always good to have you on Uncensored. Thank you very much.

[Dr. Mustafa Barghouti]

Thank you.

[Piers Morgan]

Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.