“Torture Does NOT Work!” Explosive Report On Brutality Against Palestinians In Israel-Hamas War

Summary

Piers Morgan Uncensored – Detailed Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Title: “Torture Does NOT Work!” Explosive Report On Brutality Against Palestinians In Israel-Hamas War
Air Date: May 13, 2026
Main Theme:
This episode confronts harrowing new allegations of systematic sexual violence and brutality in the Israel-Hamas War. The discussion centers on recent explosive reporting: one, a New York Times piece by Nick Kristof detailing claims from Palestinian prisoners of sexual abuse by Israeli forces; another, an Israeli civil commission’s report on Hamas using sexual violence during the October 7 attack. Piers Morgan gathers a combative panel—including US-Israeli journalists, former special forces, and war whistleblowers—to debate the credibility, evidence, moral clarity, and political fallout from these investigations, and grapples with larger questions of human rights, justice, and democracy in conflict zones.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reports & Their Fallout

• Kristof’s NYT Report: Focuses on testimonies from at least 14 Palestinians, alleging widespread sexual violence by Israeli guards including grotesque abuses with dogs. No claims of direct command from top Israeli leadership, but suggests these crimes are an “open secret.” (03:03)
• Israeli Civil Commission Report: Details systematic sexual violence by Hamas on October 7. Supported by extensive forensic evidence: 1800 hours of footage, 10,000+ photos, and dozens of survivor testimonies. (03:27)
• Media & Political Response: Both reports met with denial, accusations of fabrication (“blood libel”), and rapid attempts to discredit their authors—especially Kristof, despite his high journalistic standing. (04:00)

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2. Is Sexual Violence Weaponized?

Anna Kasparian [05:07]

• "Sexual violence carried out by any group of people... is wrong, indecent, immoral, and should be condemned. I don't know why this is such a difficult thing to do."
• Notes difference in narratives: Hamas's sexual violence debated as intentional war tool; for Israel, the focus is systemic impunity and lack of accountability.
• Emphasizes that many Palestinian victims were detained without trial or charge.

Emily Schrader [07:58, 11:26]

• Accepts both reports indicate wrongdoing, and “if it’s happening, it deserves a thorough investigation.”
• Criticizes Kristof’s sourcing as too dependent on organizations with alleged Hamas ties, versus the Israeli commission’s reliance on forensic data.
• “Regurgitating absurd claims such as that Israel trained dogs to rape Palestinians does not help victims of sexual violence. It makes a mockery of them.” (06:52)
• Stresses need for impartial, thorough investigation—beyond journalism.

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3. Credibility, Double Standards, and Evidence

Piers Morgan [09:40, 10:24]

• Points out that people quickly accept sexual violence claims from their “side” but dismiss or attack unwelcome reporting: “It’s becoming increasingly difficult to get to the truth, because AI in particular is so sophisticated and will get more so, that the fakes are just everywhere.”

Rob O’Neill (ex-Navy SEAL) [21:05, 39:08]

• Warns against extremes: “It didn’t happen, or everything happened. And somewhere is the truth in the middle.”
• On torture: “Torture does not work at all. You will get to a point where you hurt someone so bad, they're going to tell you what you want to hear.” (20:20, 38:20)
• Notes that bad actors exist in all armies, referencing Abu Ghraib and his own experience.

Shaile Ben Efraim (ex-IDF & Whistleblower) [14:51, 17:16]

• “Nick Kristof is working in an environment... authorities aren’t letting him. So he’s doing the best he can as a journalist to force the authorities to investigate.”
• “What’s most striking... is that [Kristof] managed to get the survivors of sexual abuse to talk on the record with their faces exposed, despite incredible damage this could do to them in Palestinian society.”

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4. Systemic Accountability and Justice

Piers Morgan [28:00, 36:09]

• Notes Israel’s lack of transparency: “If you have nothing to hide, let international journalists in... If you genuinely have waged this war in the most moral way imaginable, as they keep claiming, then let the journalists do their job.”
• On slow or absent accountability for IDF abuses versus swift discipline for, e.g., desecration of a statue: “Why is it the IDF and the Israeli government could respond so quickly to the desecration of a statue of Jesus, but not to the killing of journalists?” (35:05)

Doron Kempel (Ex-IDF Special Forces) [26:36, 29:52]

• “There is no excellence in an organization without having moral excellence at the core... Israel should investigate this professionally and fairly. If anybody is to blame, they should suffer the full extent of the law or there’s going to be no Israel in 50 years.”

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5. Israel’s Dual Legal System and Detentions

Anna Kasparian [44:24]

• Emphasizes that Palestinians are tried in military courts, not civilian ones: “This law is an extension of the apartheid system... It is very important for the American people to understand that our special ally operates in ways that we would find absolutely horrendous.”
• Points to large numbers of Palestinians detained without trial as “the antithesis of what a free democracy should be doing.” (39:56)

Emily Schrader

• Defends that not all 9,000 in Israeli jails are under administrative detention; after Oct 7, a “massive net” was cast to find attackers.
• On the new death penalty law: “It’s not about being two-tiered... it has to be a capital offense and of a nationalistic nature... I do have a problem with the application of it. But I think it will be struck down or modified in court.” (43:04)

Shaile Ben Efraim [41:30]

• “With Gaza you have this massive net where you arrest every single man you see... And when it’s Israelis committing these crimes, no one gets arrested, no one gets investigated. Fog of war, what can you do? But with Gaza you can bring everyone in. It just shows you that Jews are not held accountable in Israel and Palestinians are held accountable whether they committed crimes or not.”

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6. Broader Themes — War, Truth, and Morality

• Piers Morgan: “If we can't believe the reporting of somebody as good as [Kristof]... I just think we've got to somehow separate the reporting and journalism of people like Nick Kristof from the kind of stuff you've been talking about.” (22:16)
• Anna Kasparian: “The idea that we continue to fund that government... despite all of the atrocities that have been committed in Gaza, in the West Bank, now in Lebanon, also in Iran... It's lie after lie after lie.” (45:25)
• Rob O’Neill: “Anyone that tortures is wrong. And it's not up to me to judge whether or not you cut down a picture of Jesus. Someone else will do that eventually. I'm just saying what's right or wrong there.” (39:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Shaile Ben Efraim on prison abuse:
  “A lot of people in these prisons, both members of the prison service and IDF officers... are completely aware of the use of dogs.” (17:16)
• Anna Kasparian on lack of consequences:
  “There is a sickness in the society right now that needs to be addressed. If you see anyone being raped like that and you think the rapists should be let off with not even a slap on the wrist, there is something wrong with that society.” (14:24)
• Rob O’Neill on torture:
  “Torture does not work at all. You will get to a point where you hurt someone so bad, they're going to tell you what you want to hear.” (20:20, 38:20)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:20 – 01:41: Introduction of Kristof’s report and Israeli commission report; social/media fallout.
• 05:07 – 06:52: Anna Kasparian outlines her stance on sexual violence, justice, and Kristof’s findings.
• 09:40 – 12:10: Debate over evidence, double standards, and the denial/discrediting of Kristof’s work.
• 14:51 – 17:16: Shaile Ben Efraim discusses Kristof’s reporting process and dog abuse allegations.
• 21:05 – 22:12: Rob O’Neill on war crimes and the difficulty of knowing the truth in the age of deepfakes.
• 26:36 – 29:52: Doron Kempel on the IDF’s need for moral clarity and the importance of genuine investigations.
• 35:05 – 36:09: Discussion of accountability, transparency, and quick responses to some (but not all) IDF wrongdoing.
• 39:08 – 41:27: Rob O’Neill’s firsthand experience on torture and its ineffectiveness; democracy and detention.
• 41:30 – 42:10: Shaile Ben Efraim: comparison of accountability for Israelis and Palestinians in the justice system.
• 44:24 – 45:25: Debate over the new death penalty law and two-tier justice for Israelis/Palestinians.

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Tone and Language

The panel debates were frequently contentious, with Anna Kasparian and Emily Schrader clashing directly, at times trading personal accusations, as Piers Morgan struggled to keep order and focus on the core issues. The tone oscillated between impassioned and acrimonious, especially around evidence, sources, and allegations of bias or propaganda. Yet, amidst the strife, the panel repeatedly circled back to core agreements: that rape and torture are always wrong, that moral clarity and accountability are essential, and that journalism (when conducted rigorously) is vital in exposing abuses—regardless of which “side” it indicts.

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Conclusion

This heated and multifaceted episode exposes the immense difficulties in achieving moral clarity during wartime, particularly as tribal allegiances, social media, and disinformation shape not only public opinion, but also official responses and accountability. The panel’s fierce debate underscores the urgent need for credible, transparent investigations and for societies—especially ones that claim democratic superiority—to uphold the rule of law and human decency, even towards enemies and in the “fog of war.”

Transcript

[Piers Morgan]

Some follow the noise.

[Anna Kasparian]

Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money

[Piers Morgan]

side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail].

[Rob O'Neill]

Torture does not work at all. You will get to a point where you hurt someone so bad they're going to tell you what you want to hear.

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

A lot of people in these prisons, members of the Prison Service and IDF officers are completely aware of the use of dogs.

[Emily Schrader]

I think it actually is an insult if there are indeed victims, as he described, who have been abused in the ways that he described.

[Anna Kasparian]

You are not a journalist.

[Emily Schrader]

Can we get back to the topic of this debate?

[Anna Kasparian]

The slaughter of actual I'm here to

[Emily Schrader]

speak about what's actually happening on the ground, not to hurl angry insults at people. Think about what's actually happening.

[Anna Kasparian]

As a propagandist for Israel, that's what you are. You're propaganda.

[Piers Morgan]

A bombshell report on the Israel Hamas conflict has ignited global fury about the appalling depravity of the combatants. In lurid detail, the reporting lays bare the twisted and grotesque sexual violence used to subjugate victims. Those who read it and believe it emerge more certain than ever that one side's righteous and the other is evil. But there are, of course, two reports, and the chances are that your own social media timeline will, or the publications you choose to read will determine whether you believe I'm talking about Hamas or Israel. New York Times journalist Nick Kristof, twice a Pulitzer Prize winner, compiled a report which alleges the systematic rape of Palestinian prisoners by Israeli security I went to

[Ryan Cohen]

the west bank to talk with Palestinians who experienced sexual assault firsthand by Israeli soldiers, settlers and prison guards. Their harrowing accounts, backed by lawyers, surveys and international reports, suggest that sexual violence by Israelis against Palestinians is widespread.

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

One woman, 23 at the time of

[Ryan Cohen]

her detention, told me that she was regularly stripped naked, forcibly bent over, and groped all over her body by male and female guards. One journalist said he had been held down and raped by a dog, a claim backed by other accounts from prisoners who report they underwent the same thing.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, the reporting is based on detailed testimony from at least 14 Palestinians. It does not allege that IDF soldiers or security personnel are commanded to commit these crimes, but it does conclude that they happen so often that they are standard operating procedure, in that it echoes reports by the UN and others. Israel's Foreign Ministry called it one of the worst blood libels in modern history. A flood of high profile Social media accounts have moved quickly to condemn and discredit the testimony, as well as peddling and a false rumor that the New York Times is preparing a retraction. It isn't. In fact, they've doubled down. And while this storm has gathered force, the exact same thing has been happening on the other side. Like many people, I read with horror the details of the Israeli Civil Commission's report on October 7th. Heads were decapitated, it says. Pelvic bones shattered. Even after death, sexual assault continued. He started touching me, and I resisted. And then he dragged me to the bedroom, disfiguring their faces and their sexual organs. See that Multiple times.

[Emily Schrader]

It's like they wanted to inflict pain

[Anna Kasparian]

in the cruelest manner possible.

[Emily Schrader]

They have redefined evil.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, the commission's report draws on hundreds of interviews and thousands of photographs. It, too, echoes work by the UN which concluded that Hamas used sexual violence. And it, too, has been ransacked and trashed by people who support the opposite cause. As far as I'm concerned, the only cause is basic human decency. If your first instinct about either report is to look for ways to smear them, you might have run out of that yourself. Well, joining me on the panel is US Israeli journalist and commentator Emily Schrader, the former US Navy SEAL Rob o', Neill, the former IDF soldier and whistleblower Shaile Ben Efraim, and Anna Kasparin, the executive producer and host of the Young Turks, and Doron Kempel, who's a former Special Forces commander in the idf. Well, welcome to all of you. Let me start with you, Anarchus Berenice. Two reports have come out. One in a newspaper, one by a commission, one detailing the appalling atrocities of October 7, and one by Nick Kristof, somebody that I know well. When I was at CNN for four years, he was a regular on my show there. He's won a Pulitzer Prize twice. He is unquestionably one of the best journalists in the world. Now, that doesn't mean that he is not capable of making mistakes, but so far, he has doubled and trebled down on all criticism, stood by his reporting completely. And so the New York Times. So there's a lot of stuff going on. A lot of noise, a lot of anger, a lot of rage, a lot of discrediting. Where do you sit in totality with both of these reports?

[Anna Kasparian]

I think it's very simple. Sexual violence carried out by any group of people, whether we're talking about IDF soldiers or members of Hamas, is wrong, indecent, immoral, and should be condemned. I don't know why this is such a difficult thing to do. This shouldn't be considered a one sided thing. Okay? Sexual violence is often used during war. Now, in the case of Hamas, I think the argument is whether or not Hamas used rape specifically as a tool of war. And it was a widespread act. And so that's where the debate lies on the Hamas side. On the Israeli side, you know, Christoph was very clear in noting that there's no indication that IDF soldiers are commanded to carry out rape. But what stood out to me about his reporting is that, you know, there were individuals quoted who said that basically no one stops them. Like it's common. It's known that this is happening. It's been happening for a long time, but no one in a position of power in Israel is stopping them from doing it. And so it's just. I mean, it's so wrong. And I don't know how anyone can read the entirety of that Kristof piece and not be brought to tears over the just cruel and unusual punishment of individuals who were never even charged with a crime. By the way, that's the other thing. These are individuals who were arrested soon after October 7th on suspicion of doing something wrong. They were never charged with anything. They never stood trial, yet they were imprisoned and raped in some of the most horrific ways imaginable. So just long story short, rape is wrong. Sexual violence is wrong, regardless of who does it.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, Emily Schroeder, welcome back to uncensored to U2. You've posted, Nick. Kristof should really be fired over this. If such crimes actually occur, there needs to be a respectable investigation into this behavior, not an opinion column citing Hamas affiliated sources. The NYT published an opinion column accusing Israel of systematic sexual abuse the night before a major report documenting Hamas October 7 sexual atrocities was released. Not an investigation, but an opinion piece built heavily on claims from euromedmonitor, whose leadership has documented ties to Hamas networks. If abuse is happening, it should be investigated. But regurgitating absurd claims such as that Israel trained dogs to rape Palestinians does not help victims of sexual violence. It makes a mockery of them. Shame on the New York Times. So my first question is, I presume that you found everything in the. I don't want to speak for you, but you can clarify quickly. Did you find everything in the Hamas report credible and entirely accurate? And you would. You would just take it unquestionably as fact?

[Emily Schrader]

We have no way of knowing if every single claim that's made in the civil Commission's report is accurate. I personally, of course, have no way of knowing that. But what we do know from the Civil Commission report is that it relies on 1800 hours of footage. It relies on more than 10,000 photos. It relies on forensic evidence that was collected from dead bodies that were there, as well as eyewitness and survivor testimony from the hostages who returned. So there is a lot more evidence that's provided in that report, which I did read in its entirety. In regards to the article by Kristof, my problem with it isn't that such abuses could occur or that there aren't abuses in prisons. I believe that there most certainly are, as I think there are in most countries that have a prison system, especially one involved in a heavy conflict like we see here. I think this might be the first time on Piers Morgan. I actually agree with Anna Kasparian. It doesn't matter who did it. If it's happening, it's wrong. It deserves a thorough investigation. And I don't believe that Christoph did them a service in this article. I think it actually is an insult if there are indeed victims, as he described, who have been abused in the ways that he described. There needs to be a much more impartial investigation. And furthermore, the sources that he used, I mean, the way that he didn't disclose the associations between Euromed Monitor and Hamas, between what Rami Abdu has said and stood for, what the chairman of the board, Mazen Cahill has stated, they have both expressed explicitly supported the actions of October 7th on social media themselves. Euromed itself has been a denier of sexual assault and rape on October 7th by Hamas. So there's a lot of complications and problems that simply were not disclosed in this piece.

[Piers Morgan]

But what is interesting, Emily, to any of it, here's what I would say. What is interesting to me is your mindset about these two reports, because on the first one you conceded immediately that you don't know for sure if it's all accurate. And yet you're not calling for anyone to be fired. You're not throwing rocks at the quality of the reporting. You're just accepting you don't know it's all true, but you 100% support it and endorse it. Whereas with the Kristoff report, and again to remind viewers, this is not just any old journalist. He is one of the most experienced and highly awarded journalists in in America. He's won two Pulitzer Prizes. He just didn't lob this up as a piece of opinion, as he says himself he defended.

[Emily Schrader]

But the sources he relies on hang On.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me finish up.

[Emily Schrader]

Are very different than 1800 hours of raw footage photos from actual dead bodies.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay. But he, as he says, I deeply believe the most the best opinion journalism is based on new reporting. So my columns are rooted in travel and reporting. In this case, I saw a story and. And pursued it. And because I'm a columnist, it ran in the opinion section. What was intriguing to me, and maybe you can shed some light on this. But within minutes there was this bombardment of people on social media, high profile, Bill Ackman and others piling in to Christophe, denouncing it all as just complete nonsense, fantasy, blood libel and so on. How could they possibly have known? In the same way that you were open and honest enough to say you don't know if everything in the Hamas report is actually correct, why did you not collectively apply the same view to what Nick Kristof did, given his background as a award winning journalist?

[Emily Schrader]

Because the civil commission was based on evidence, it wasn't compiled by a journalist and it wasn't published in an opinion section. In fact, I would probably have been more likely to believe some of the claims that were made by Kristof if it had been done as a news article. And frankly, I think the New York Times has the resources, they have the time, they have the ability to conduct a thorough investigation about this, and they didn't. And I think that that actually does a disservice to any of victims who actually have suffered from sexual harassment or abuse in captivity or otherwise. It's a huge problem journalistically. That said, I'm not denying that something could be done, but what we don't really know. You're using sources that are praising Hamas, that have affiliations with Hamas.

[Anna Kasparian]

We all witnessed. We all witnessed an IDF gang rape of a Palestinian hostage in one of these.

[Emily Schrader]

You didn't witness that because that's not what the footage shows. And that actually has been investigated in the court.

[Anna Kasparian]

I watched the video myself. I watched the video.

[Emily Schrader]

You interrupted me, as a matter of fact. And what you saw is not what you think you saw.

[Anna Kasparian]

This has already been debunked, by the way. I just want to be clear that this woman is not a journalist. She's actually a spy who works for the 8200 group within the.

[Emily Schrader]

By the way, that is legal defamation. I have never worked for the Israeli government in any capacity and I also have never served in the Israeli army.

[Anna Kasparian]

Yourself have posted about it on X.

[Emily Schrader]

No, I didn't.

[Anna Kasparian]

I have a screenshot.

[Emily Schrader]

I have problems reading.

[Anna Kasparian]

I have a screenshot. I Have a screenshot, I'll share it.

[Emily Schrader]

I have a screenshot too, Anna. In fact, I have a screenshot of you defaming me on social media, calling me a traitor to the United States when you have no such evidence you

[Anna Kasparian]

are a traitor to the United States.

[Emily Schrader]

So maybe there's an actual conversation here which is not about my background.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, can we not talk over each other? All right? Don't witness statements if you talk over each other.

[Rob O'Neill]

Don't ever see if you talk over

[Piers Morgan]

each other, no one can hear. And let's not get into the tit for tat on who's suing who about what. Let's stick to the story itself.

[Anna Kasparian]

Can I finish my point?

[Piers Morgan]

The point you're making is what?

[Anna Kasparian]

The point I'm making is there was a group of IDF soldiers who were caught on surveillance footage. This is a video. I watched this video that many people have seen themselves. The gang rape happens, okay? The Palestinian man who suffered that sexual abuse had internal injuries that were so bad that he had to be in the hospital for weeks upon weeks. Okay? They used objects to rape him anally. I mean, it was one of the most horrific things I've ever witnessed myself. And you know what happened, Pierce, after there was some indication that maybe, just maybe, these IDF soldiers would suffer some punishment for what they did. There were protests in Israel. There was rage over the notion that they would ever suffer any consequences for what they did. And later, they were made to be television stars. They were brought on interview shows, celebrated. There is a sickness in the society right now that needs to be addressed. If you see anyone being raped like that and you think the rapists should be let off with not even a slap on the wrist, there is something wrong with that society.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, let me bring in some of the other guests. So, Shaile Ben Efrain, welcome to you to uncensored. You're a former IDF soldier and whistleblower. I believe you spoke to Nick Kristof as part of the reporting he did for his piece. So give me your view of what he published.

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

Yeah. So I think it's important to move away from this attempt to compare what Nick Kristof did to this commission.

[Rob O'Neill]

Right.

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

Nick Kristof is working in an environment, and we can't investigate properly because the authorities aren't letting him. So he's doing the best he can as a journalist in order to force the authorities to investigate it. That's the whole point here. There have been absolutely no convictions, no serious investigations into any cases of wrongdoing. Not only has no one been imprisoned, but no one's even been removed from their jobs, despite one investigation into a murder and another investigation into a brutal sexual assault. So what Kristof is doing is he's going into an environment where the authorities are in no way willing to cooperate and breaking the lid of silence. And that's not the same as a commission that has the cooperation of the authorities, that has the cooperation of the military that's in control of the area and is able to do that kind of forensic evidence. So, of course, the forensic evidence is much more impressive in. In that. That committee. The two are just completely unrelated. Now, what's most striking and amazing about what Kristof did is that he managed to get the survivors of sexual abuse to talk on the record with their faces exposed in some cases in the video, which to me was absolutely incredible, because you have to keep in mind that in Palestinian culture, if you've experienced sexual abuse that has a stigma of shame that is far, far greater than in Western soc. We have it too, in the west, we in Israel, in the United States. But there's no comparison to the Palestinians. And I know that their families are being harmed in their status as a result. But they felt that they needed to speak out, despite the incredible damage that this could do to them personally. And the fact that Nick managed to get that done is an absolutely incredible piece of.

[Piers Morgan]

Now, specifically shy the most contentious allegation that's in Nick Khrushchev's report is this suggestion that Israeli guards used dogs to rape Palestinian prisoners. Now you, I believe, can corroborate that from your own personal work. So tell me about that side of it.

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

Yeah, so when I first read about dogs being used to sexually assault victims in these prisons, I didn't believe it, of course, at the time, I didn't believe that Israel was committing many of the crimes that it later turned out that it was. So I talked to guards in that Tayman in first time in June 2025, and I didn't even ask about that because that didn't seem realistic to me. But then I kept hearing more and more reports of this, and I talked to someone in Gaza who had been in one of these camps, and they told me that this had occurred. So I asked the two guards that I had talked to if that had actually happened. One of them said he'd heard talk about it, hadn't seen it. The other one said that he had seen it. Now it has to be said that the guard who said that he had seen it wasn't speaking about penetration or anything like that, they were talking about having the detainee be sort of exposed and having the dog sort of seem like it was about to mount him. So a very disturbing, threatening kind of thing. So all this talk about whether there's been penetration or not, I don't know if there has been or hasn't been, but this guard saw them using a dog in a sexually threatening way. And the other one, it was. It was just hearsay. When Nick was doing the article, he asked me to put him in contact with them, and one of them immediately said no. The other one chickened out in the last minute. So that's why you don't have any corroboration, unfortunately, from. From guards. But a lot of people in these prisons, both members of the prison service and IDF officers and people who served on the ground there, one of them was just a reserve officer serving there who usually did combat duty, are completely aware of the use of dogs. And, you know, Christoph said that there's no evidence that there's orders from above to do these sorts of things, but honestly, I would be shocked if they weren't getting orders from their immediate superiors. I don't. I don't think any of this is coming from Netanyahu, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't coming from their immediate superior.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, let me bring in. Let me bring in our two other guests now. Rob o', Neill, welcome back to you. Always great to have you on uncensored.

[Emily Schrader]

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[Piers Morgan]

I've got a long memory. I remember in the Iraq war in 2003, the Abu Ghraib scandal, where a lot of Iraqi civilians were being abused by American forces in that case. And it turned out quite a few rogue elements of the British armed forces were doing similar things and some of them got court martialed. I was personally involved. I lost my job over it. For pictures which were alleged to have been faked. But actually, interestingly, regardless of the rationality of the pictures, the reports that we published alongside them were never denied. So clearly there has been a history of of rogue elements of armed forces, both in the US and other countries, including mine, and guards in prisons. We read about this a lot, abusing detainees in some capacity. So when you've seen these two reports, and let's take the New York Times report first. Rob, what is your view about this? Because a lot of people are like, no, none of this happened. Others are like, I believe every word of it. Where do you sit with it?

[Rob O'Neill]

Well, like anything else, Pierce, and thanks for having me. Like anything else, that's the extremes on each side. It didn't happen, or everything happened. And somewhere is the truth. In the middle, you're going to see with prisoners and guards, there's always going to be. There was a famous test I should have researched. I didn't know I'd be talking about this, but there were students that were volunteered to be guards, volunteered to be prisoners, and it turned into debauchery after like 12 hours. This happens all the time. I remember when I was a. In high school, the first time. Well, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and there were stories of mass rape and all this stuff that turned out to be true or untrue or whatever. It's always happened. I mean, I'm not saying it's always happened. There's always stories of this. Now we're at a place where, well, yeah, I saw a video of it. Well, there's deep fakes everywhere. Everything you hear, most of it's not true. Everyone's got an agenda. They're all doing stuff. I mean, I was happy at first. Emily and Anna were on. We all agreed rape is bad. I'm like, wow, this is going to be a great Wednesday. We all agree rape is bad. Then you get the human element involved and you don't know what's happening. You don't know what's true. I mean, I mean, okay, we saw it on tv. I saw a tape. Yeah, well, I also saw weird footage. I wasn't there when they landed on the moon, but somehow it panned up as the thing took off. I saw it on tv. It must be true. The Exorcist, the movie scared the shit out of me because I saw it on tv.

[Piers Morgan]

It must be true.

[Rob O'Neill]

Got to take a wrap off and realize not everything's true. And everyone does that in a way.

[Piers Morgan]

Rob, I think. I think everything you just said I completely agree with. It's becoming increasingly difficult to get to the truth because AI in particular is so sophisticated and will get more so that the fakes are just everywhere. And it's very, very hard to Sort the wheat from a chaff. But that's why actually I put an even higher premium on journalists like Nick Kristof, who I personally have known a long time, who has won two Pulitzer Prizes. If we can't believe the reporting of somebody as good as him and as experienced as him, particularly in the area of sexual violence. And I'll read the statement from the New York Times. After all the furore yesterday, this said there's no truth at all to any retraction being published. Nicholas Kristof is a two time Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who's reported on sexual violence for decades and is widely regarded as one of the world's best on the ground reporters documenting and bearing witness to sexual abuse experienced by women and men in war and conflict zones. He traveled to the region to report firsthand on the stories of Palestinians who suffered abuse. And his article collects accounts and the victim's own words backed by independent studies. You know, he's not a fly by night guy. He's not a guy with a litany of big mistakes or fake news or any of these things. And I just think we've. We've got to somehow separate the reporting and journalism of people like Nick Kristof from the kind of stuff you've been talking about.

[Rob O'Neill]

Well, I'm assuming you heard of Seymour Hers.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, right.

[Rob O'Neill]

He won a couple publishers, didn't he? I think so, but I was there for the Bin Laden raid. He wrote a horrible article about how we were cutting up his body and throwing it over the Hindu Kush. 100% bullshit. But hey, it's Seymour Hersh. He wrote a great article in the 60s. He's full of shit. That's it. I mean, guys can lie. Just because they have awards given to them by other guys who write bullshit doesn't mean they were there.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you know why I like having you on? The reason I like having you on uncensored is because you are the epitome of uncensored. Rob o'. Neill. You always say exactly what you're thinking and I appreciate the candidate. Well, yeah, well, honestly, I'm trying to tell the truth.

[Rob O'Neill]

I'm trying to just. Seriously. And if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. I just think that's the truth.

[Piers Morgan]

You're making a valid point based on your own personal experience. So I completely understand the passion that you're making it. And I actually meant what I just said as a compliment.

[Rob O'Neill]

Oh, no, I know.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm good. Let me bring in Doran Kempel, former Special Forces Commander in the idf Doran, what is your view of this? I mean, look, my view of the IDF generally since October 7th is they've obviously been waging an incredibly difficult war against Hamas. They've obviously had a lot of losses on their side, they've inflicted a lot of losses on the other side, including many civilians. That's been very contentious. It's led to all sorts of global debate about whether the proportionality of Israel's response has been correct or not. We've debated that on this show many, many, many times. But there have been a few things that have popped up which have, to my mind, questioned the constant refrain that the IDF is the most moral army in the world. One very recently, of the IDF soldier desecrating a statue of Jesus Christ, for example. That's not the actions of the most moral army in the world. Now, I accept there are rogue elements of any army, okay? So I'm not pretending for a moment they're not. But I think when you make a claim like that, it can sometimes be used by people as an all encompassing kind of protective shield to any legitimate criticism. You know, similarly, when I see members of the Israeli government like Ben Gvir being given by his wife on his 50th birthday last week a cake with a noose on it, that makes me think, wow, maybe you're just as psychopathic as the people you're going after. So there's a lot of stuff here which I am uncomfortable with. Whilst at the same time as I did many, many times from the start of the war in Gaza, for example, I've always accepted Israel had a right to defend itself. So I'm not one of those people who says everything Israel does is wrong. I have nothing against the country or the people. I have a problem with elements of this government and with the actions that have been going on, particularly in the last year or so. So in the context of my positioning of that, what is your view here of this series of revelations from Nick Kristof? Do you think, as some people do, that none of it can be true, it's all fantasy, he's made it all up? Or do you think there's a more nuanced way to respond to this?

[Doron Kempel]

Thank you for having me, Piers. Let's start with what I think we all agree about, which is that any type of rape doesn't matter if it's women or men. Any type of torture or abuse is bad. We agree on that. Let me add one more thing that I'm sure, Piers, you agree with, and also brother Robert from The seals. There is no excellence in an organization without having moral excellence at the core. The seals, and I'm sure that your program appears starts with the fact that there's moral clarity. And from that let me get to the most important point. The survival of Israel should not be taken for granted. Not in the past 50 years and not in the next 50 years. If Israel wants to survive, it needs to maintain that type of excellence that starts with morality to intellectual integrity and then operational excellence, which includes courage. And I'm sure that the Israeli pilots over Iran that are sacrificing their life have this type of courage and has that morality across these three layers. And for that reason, and of course I don't know what has happened in those prisons, I have no idea. But Israel should investigate this professionally and fairly. And to the extent that anybody is to blame, they should suffer the full extent of the law or there's going to be no Israel in 50 years. I think those are the core points that I wanted to communicate. I can double click on any of them. Piers.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because one of my big problems, for example with the war on Gaza, one of my big critiques of the Israel position on it and the way it was conducted was to this day, the Netanyahu government bans international media from going into Gaza, even though there has supposedly been a ceasefire for many months. None of that makes sense to me. If you have nothing to hide, if you genuinely have waged this war in the most moral way imaginable, as they keep claiming, then let the international journalists in to do their job unfettered, you know, untied to government walking around with them, and allow the top journalists in the world to go in and investigate whether those claims are true. And the other part of the Gaza story was that there were repeated allegations of outrages, the killing of innocent journalists. Not all of them, I'm sure, were innocent. Some probably were attached to Hamas, I don't know because I only know the claims come from IDF and where there appears to have been some atrocity or some wrongdoing, they immediately announce an investigation. And then some people have gone back and gone, well, what happened to all those investigations? Most of them, we never get any conclusion, you know, and we're seeing a similar pattern, for example, in Iran with the killing of the school, with the 200 schoolgirls, or however many it was who were killed. We still don't know apparently who fired that missile. And yet every part of my journalistic gut tells me, of course they know you fired that missile. So why aren't we being told similarly with all the investigations the IDF have done into all the alleged wrongdoing as it was happening in real time? Well, where's the results? Where are the published statements about all these things? A lot of them just disappear from public view and public purview. And I have a problem with that. You know, I have a problem with the lack of transparency and the apparent lack of accountability. What would you say to that?

[Doron Kempel]

Well, a lot of very important points. I think that all of this should be investigated and published. And again, I believe that no organization or society can survive without a kernel of morality, legality, integrity, et cetera. And for that reason, all of that should be investigated. And whoever has done something wrong should be suffering the full extent of the law. Having said that, you also said something about allowing journalists everywhere. That's not really possible in the time of war, because war includes a lot of elements that are under control.

[Piers Morgan]

But there's a ceasefire and for instance.

[Doron Kempel]

Yes, but you know that the Mossad and the CIA are not on vacation right now in Iran.

[Piers Morgan]

No, no, but where there is a ceasefire historically is. Historically in modern times, where there's a ceasefire, journalists are allowed to do their job. And I cannot get a straight answer out of why the Israeli government continues to ban international journalists from doing their job. It makes no sense. It's an infringement of their freedom of speech and expression to do it. It's a failure of accountability, a failure of transparency. And you know, my message to Prime Minister Netanyahu, if you have nothing to hide, then let the journalists in. Let them report. You know, and that's, you know, it's not connected directly to the general.

[Doron Kempel]

I think I agree with that.

[Piers Morgan]

If you don't have reporting like Nick Christos, I'm not sure where it comes from

[Doron Kempel]

in general. I agree with that. It's part of democracy. The only point that I was making is that if Robert's SEAL team had a journalist with them on their way to bin Laden, it wouldn't have worked in the same way. So there should be some areas that are concealed, but when there is.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, but that's a good point, but hang on that point. But journalists did go to the compound afterwards. They were allowed to go and investigate what had happened after it was all over. So that's the analogy I would use. Of course, you don't want to have journalists on the actual missions or during combat operation. I get that. But once it's over, once there's a ceasefire, even if there are, you know, breakouts from that ceasefire. The journalists should. In the end, it's down to the journalists. I agree. Down to the journalists and their. And their bosses to determine the risk assessment. It shouldn't be down to a government to say, none of you are coming in. I mean, Emily, let me ask you that question because, you know, you're a US Israeli journalist. As a journalist, do you feel comfortable that journalists are not allowed into Gaza unless they're taken by the IDF and are perceived to be friendly?

[Emily Schrader]

Yeah, I mean, I think we're on the same page. We have been for some time. Even while there was no ceasefire, I argued that international media should be allowed in at their own risk. And I say that with the caveat that I know why the army doesn't want and it's not because of hiding something or not hiding something. The equation here is that they consider the risk to be too high, too much operational activity occurring within a very small area. It's not unheard of for certain zones to be off limits for journalists. We see it in Ukraine with zones that journalists can't enter. That being said, I agree with you. I think that should be up to the journalists to assume that risk, and that's who should be making the ultimate decision. I just want to add one more comment about what you mentioned with the accountability. I think that's the case in many countries, especially when it comes to war, that we don't really hear about the follow up. This is a problem. But I do want to say, at least in some of the more recent examples, including one that you brought up, that disgusting behavior from one of the soldiers in Lebanon mocking the statue of Jesus that was in one of the villages there, There was a response to this. He was removed from operational duty. And those who stood by doing nothing were also suspended. In addition to that, we also had condemnation from right to left, from the very top of the government, with the president and the prime minister, all the way to community leaders.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, Emily, But I would. My response to that would be, yes, you're right, because there was widespread condemnation all around the world and because I think the Israeli government panicked and realized how bad it looked, particularly with Christians in America, who are their biggest paymasters and supporters. But then it begs the question, if they can respond that quickly and with such clarity and authority and decisiveness and take disciplinary action, why couldn't they do the same? When you had people being killed wrongly in Gaza, as happened multiple times, including in my estimation, a number of journalists who were just doing their job, over 200 journalists were killed in that war. And, you know, I'm afraid, obviously, you

[Emily Schrader]

know, I'm gonna dispute you on that figure, but.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, no, it's not disputable. The only dispute is whether any of the.

[Emily Schrader]

Because many of these journalists were not journalists here.

[Anna Kasparian]

It's not disputed that you're not a journalist. You are not a journalist. Okay. You born and raised.

[Emily Schrader]

I hear a lot of background noise now. You're a lot of background noises. And I would like to get back

[Anna Kasparian]

to the question that you are for a genocidal regime in the Middle East. That's what you are, your propagandist for a genocidal regime in the Middle East. Talking about.

[Emily Schrader]

Can we get back to the actual topic of this debate, please?

[Anna Kasparian]

No, we're focusing on the topic.

[Emily Schrader]

Can we get back to the topic of this debate?

[Anna Kasparian]

Can we buy the slaughter of actual.

[Emily Schrader]

I'm here to speak about whether.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, look, I'm making. Let me. Hang on, hang on. You can respond in a moment, but I'm making the point which I think is a valid one, which is, why is it. Why is it the IDF and the Israeli government could respond so quickly to the desecration of a statue of Jesus, but cannot respond with anything like the same speed to the killing of journalists, many of whom were genuine journalists doing their job?

[Emily Schrader]

Probably Rob and Doron can answer this even better than me, but I think the most distinct and obvious difference is that one occurs in the fog of war, and it takes time to be able to determine who was where, when, what footage is there, what information is there available, versus a photo where you can clearly see who it was and what happened. And they evaluated that fairly quickly. Now, that said, I agree with you. I think there needs to be more transparency and there also needs to be more speedy answers to a lot of these things. We're on the same page on this. I'm not disputing you at all on that front.

[Piers Morgan]

And on the question of the 9,000 or so Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, why is it that so many have not had a free and fair trial yet?

[Anna Kasparian]

Good question.

[Emily Schrader]

Under administrative detention, Israel does reserve the right in order to preemptively arrest people up to six months with court permission. And that is what's happened. All of those 9,000 are not under administrative detention, but we know that after October 7th, there were thousands of arrests in order to determine who was a part of what happened. In fact, I would go even further than that and point out that a lot of the Palestinians who were arrested, we didn't know because we didn't know on October 7th who had entered Israel. There were people they found many months later that were involved in the October 7th massacres who had been hiding inside of Israel. So there is an over response to what happened in order to get control of the situation to Israel.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring in Rob o' Neal

[Emily Schrader]

a lot of times.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring in Rob o' Neill back on that one. Because of course, you know, anyone who's watched the great, you know, 0 dart 30 about your incredible raid, which is a brilliant movie, but of course it shows. Great movie. Yeah. And it shows a lot of the. A lot of the detention scenes are pretty harrowing. And you see people being held at Guantanamo Bay and being, you know, effectively tortured for information. And the thread in the movie shows that ultimately a piece of information that was elicited that way leads to identification of a compound and so on. So you can see a thread through that movie and that narrative that in a way means justifying the ends. But of course, the argument against it is, particularly when Barack Obama himself being a lawyer, is that if you're fighting to defend democracy, including the rule of law, then is it right that you should hold people in detention for sometimes in quite a base case, there were people there for 12 years or more without ever being brought to trial. I had a real problem with that. It's like, if we're fighting for freedom and democracy, we should be fighting for the rule of law. And it should be the rule of law. It shouldn't just be, well, we're going to ride roughshod over that when it suits us. What do you think?

[Rob O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, it's. I'm going to start this off by saying I'm not a journalist either. I'm Fortunate, though. Over 400 combat missions, I was what we call the battlefield interrogator until we softened it to tactical questioner. Which means after we take down a house, after we killed people and there's people still alive, I'm the one that gets to interrogate them. So I get to talk to them face to face. And I'm gonna tell you, from the time I had, from the first time I did that in Iraq to the last time I did it, probably in Afghanistan or Pakistan, I learned along the way torture does not work at all. You will get to a point where you hurt someone so bad, they're gonna tell you what you wanna hear. So what works is just catching them in lies. And the easiest way to catch them in a lie is ask them a question that you know the truth. To whose house is this? Who are the men of the house? What are their names? If there's five guys, you ask that, three guys have the same answer. Guess what? They're not the bad guys. And, I mean, look, I've been in places before after a gunfight, questioning someone, and I have to smack this taste out of their mouth, that's fine. But the torture stuff, I was never into that. I never saw it. None of my guys wanted to do that. I like to say we're the good guys, but again, unfortunately for me, no one on the battlefield thinks they're the bad guy. I'm just telling you right now, if you can catch them in lies, that's good. You're gonna get a lot further with rapport than torture. Anyone that tortures is wrong. And it's not up to me to judge whether or not you cut down a picture of Jesus. Someone else will do that eventually. So I'm just saying what's right or wrong there. It is bad on the battlefield, but it's also really bad on what gets reported because not everything is the truth. What I found, it's a hard truth. And anyone who's listening, who's never been to combat, I'm going to tell you, everyone in a war zone, about 99%, are not combatants. Not everyone's fighting the ones who are bad. You try to get the truth, you try to get the targets however you can. But I'm going to say, if anyone's a young soldier right now, I'll save you about 17 years of experience. Torture doesn't work. Try another way.

[Piers Morgan]

See, that's a really fascinating and honest answer. And on the particular point that I made, which triggered that amazing response, by the way, thank you. Holding people in detention, whether it's in Guantanamo Bay, whether it's in Israeli jails for years at a time without giving them a trial, it just, it seems to me the antithesis, really, of what a free democracy should be doing. It should be setting the moral and legal code for. Especially if you're gonna, you know, take a morally superior view of the way you run your country. We hear all the time, Israel says we're the only democracy in the region. Okay, well, then behave like one. You know, having. Having all these people in prison without ever giving them a trial, seems to me that's not democracy. But what do you think?

[Rob O'Neill]

Well, no, I mean, you're gonna be. If you keep someone, especially if it's unlawful, if you just thought there's something, you can lock them up, you're gonna make a bad guy. And again, both sides of it, I thought one thing, now I think another. Cause they've locked me up for a decade. I don't like them. Again, I wish I had all the answers cuz this would be a much shorter show. I don't.

[Piers Morgan]

I'm still trying.

[Rob O'Neill]

I just turned 50. Thank God I can learn for hopefully another 50. But it's like, I mean, and people throw democracy around like it's anything else. Like if you say, hey, I don't want my borders open, let 20 million people in. Well, if I don't do that, I'm not, I'm against the constitution. It's like we're losing a lot of definitions because we're bringing too many lawyers and politicians into it. I mean it's a lot of stuff in life I think is simpler. We love to make it complicated. I mean, I'm just. Again, I'm gonna refer back to the beginning of the segment. I'm glad this entire panel is in agreement that rape is bad.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah. Anna, I think we really need to

[Shaile Ben Efraim]

look at the comparison of what we're talking about here. On the one hand, people who commit crimes in Israeli jails, it's fog of war, we can't arrest, there's no way of knowing. And then in Gaza you have this massive net where you arrest every single man you see, lock them up, torture them, possibly kill them, and then see what happens later. All of a sudden the fog of war doesn't matter. You have the widest net possible. And when it's Israelis committing these crimes, no one gets arrested, no one gets investigated. Fog of war, what can you do? But with Gaza you can bring everyone in. It just shows you that Jews are not held accountable in Israel and Palestinians are held accountable whether they committed crimes or not. Every Palestinian is seen as well also on that point.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, on that point, and I will come to you in one moment. But on that point, Emily, for example, the thing that precipitated Ben GVIR getting his cake from his wife with the noose on it was the scene from the Knesset of him celebrating wildly with champagne after winning a new policy going through in the Knesset to have a two tier system of death penalty policy now where if you're a Palestinian that the Israelis deem to be a terrorist, then you can be executed. But the same law doesn't apply to Israelis who may commit an act of terrorism. And you know, this is a country where you've had prime ministers killed by right wing Israeli terrorists. Okay? So it's not like it doesn't happen. So what do you say to that? Are you comfortable with a two tier legal system about things like the death penalty?

[Emily Schrader]

I am not a supporter of this law in principle. I don't have a problem with the death penalty being applied. However, I do want to clarify, just for the viewers, that the law that was passed, the one that we saw Ben GVIR celebrating, is less about being two tier. What it states isn't that anyone who's a terrorist can qualify for the death penalty. It's that anyone who is convicted of murdering people. So it has to be a capital offense and it also has to be of a nationalistic nature. That's what it's classified as. Now, how that affects Palestinians differently is because Palestinians are prosecuted in military courts. So it operates through a different system. Because they are an active combatant, they're considered an active enemy entity to the State of Israel. I do have a problem with the application of it. But all of that being said, it's not going to stand. It's going to get struck down or at least modified by the courts. And frankly, it should. I think we need to be very smart about how we deal with such situations. We don't want to see people like Yahya Sinwar spending time in Israeli prison, being treated by Israeli doctors for brain cancer and then being released and planning things like October 7th. We need to be intelligent about how we're dealing with murderers with blood on their hands. And I don't believe that this law was the best way to do it. But I do think that we do need to revise how we review some of these cases.

[Piers Morgan]

All right, Anna, your response?

[Anna Kasparian]

I mean, obviously it is a two tiered justice system when one group of people, and I want to note Emily Schrader didn't say Hamas. She said Palestinians are seen as enemy combatants. But yeah, the application of this law is capital offenses, meant to, excuse me, murder someone. You are a terrorist, including Jewish Israelis, you think they should. If Jewish Israelis carry out murder, you think they should. Okay, all right.

[Emily Schrader]

As long as you're someone committing a terrorist attack, absolutely. But I think I've seen him already.

[Anna Kasparian]

That was my opinion, but. Okay, so can I finish my point without Emily and her screeching voice interrupting me constantly? Let me just finish my point. Okay. The issue is the fact that Palestinians are tried in a military prison, or, I'm sorry, military courts, as opposed to, you know, Jewish Israelis. I mean, this law is an extension of the apartheid system that Israel has been operating under for decades.

[Emily Schrader]

Now.

[Anna Kasparian]

That is the problem. This law is yet another symptom of that deeper foundational problem within Israeli society. Israelis would like us to believe that they're the only democracy in the Middle east, that it's a wonderful utopia that Americans would love. It's very much in line with the Western world. It is not in line with the Western world. It is very important for the American people to understand that our special ally operates in ways that we would find absolutely horrendous. We would consider it treachery. And the idea that we continue to fund that government, fund that military, despite all of the atrocities that have been committed in Gaza, in the west bank, now in Lebanon, also in Iran. By the way, quickly, going back to your point about we don't know who bombed the school in Manab. We do know, sadly, it was the United States, because we're the only ones who have Tomahawk missiles, and Tomahawk missiles were used to bomb that school. And it wasn't simply one strike. It wasn't two strikes. It was four strikes. Okay, so that was a horrific situation. And I hate the fact that we as Americans have blood on our hands for carrying out that atrocity. But atrocities happen. It's one thing to realize you've committed an atrocity, use actual punishment to prevent it from happening again. But that's not what's happening here. It's certainly not happening in Israel. It's not happening with our government, certainly under the leadership of Donald Trump. I mean, the guy thinks that we're winning the war in Iran. He keeps telling us that he's decimated their military. We just got New York Times reporting yesterday, saying that Iran was able to access most of their mobile missile launchers along the strait of Hormuz. 70% of their missiles are still in intact. Just. It's lie after lie after lie. Pierce, we have to be honest about what's actually happening right now, or we're gonna keep compounding the same mistakes.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, I think in a way. In a way, this plays back to what Robert Neal said, which is there's a lot of lying goes on in wars. Yeah.

[Rob O'Neill]

Iran's out of the fight. Their entire navy's on the bottom of the ocean. Jesus.

[Piers Morgan]

But isn't the truth.

[Rob O'Neill]

But Rob.

[Piers Morgan]

Isn't the truth. But Rob isn't the truth. Isn't the truth about the Iran war, Rob, that what the Iranians have discovered is they can get there. They can get pounded militarily, but as long as they can, they can control the Strait of Hormuz in the way they have done as long as they can fire off rockets.

[Doron Kempel]

And that's pressure on the Chinese. Pierce, there's logic to all of that. There are so many points here.

[Piers Morgan]

Okay, well, let me come to you in a moment. I just want Rob to. I mean, no, I'm just.

[Rob O'Neill]

I mean, I'm just saying, with all due respect, Anna just said the New York Times says. Yeah, okay. I. I didn't know Baghdad Bob from the first war in Iraq had a job. Again, the Americans are committing suicide by the thousands. The Navy sunk their army. Doesn't matter. They've been physically destroyed. It's a matter of you and the media waiting it out with them.

[Anna Kasparian]

Then why haven't we opened the Strait of Hormuz? If their military has been decimated, why

[Rob O'Neill]

haven't we military joined the. Am I going across the Holy Land? And then Iran and Straits of Hormuz are going to be obsolete. That's why we're giving them a chance. Do you want to still be in Iran? If not, fine.

[Piers Morgan]

Beat it. I think the problem with giving them a chance is that Donald Trump has constantly set new timelines for this. It's gonna be over in two or three weeks. Then it was six weeks, then it was eight weeks. And I think the problem is, if I was advising President Trump, it would be like maybe less is more in the constant announcements about all this.

[Rob O'Neill]

Look, I didn't want to start a war in Iran. I'm just saying Iran is not in this militarily. They're decimated. They don't even have leadership. Some of these guys are just despots because they have some missiles or launching them because they want to die, because they believe in their version of heaven. Get your head in it. They've lost. It's a matter of the media holding out, then us being weak again. That's it.

[Anna Kasparian]

Suicide bombings are carried out by Iran. Sunni Muslims, not Shia. Not Shia Muslims. Sunni Muslims.

[Piers Morgan]

Let me bring Doran in. Doran. Do you want to comment on that?

[Doron Kempel]

Just on the point of Iran. The tactical goal has been to eradicate their military. That happened very quickly. The strategic goal is to get the Iranians who work for the Chinese and the Russians to collaborate with us. That calls regime change or having some friendly general lead the uprising. I believe that this is still being pursued. As I said earlier, the Mossad and the CIA are not on vacation right now. And we have already demonstrated. By the way, I'm a US Citizen. Just to be clear, when I say we. We've already demonstrated that we can take any piece off the chessboard when we choose. Which means that if we're okay with the people whom we're negotiating with, we probably decided that these are the people we want to speak with with regard to the Straits of Hormuz. That's a strategic choke point relative to the bigger chess game, which is China. US President Trump is on his way to speak with Xi when the oil that typically China gets from the Gulf is not coming there. 50% of the oil that goes to China comes from the Gulf. So I think that we're comfortable as Americans with that particular leverage points that we have over China. There's no other way to interpret why President Trump is okay with this futile negotiation, because there's no rush until he completes the negotiation with Xi and we

[Piers Morgan]

have accomplished the tactical objective of eradicating

[Doron Kempel]

the military in one week.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, I don't agree necessarily with all your characterization of the current state of what's happening there, but I totally agree that what is happening right now in Beijing or tomorrow morning, actually, I think they're all asleep now, but tomorrow morning when they have their first meeting, if some of the reports are right that President Trump is thinking of offering a gigantic trade deal to China to build factories in the United States for Americans to have product, it will be a very contentious thing with his base. It will be very contentious with the conservative right in America. But if it takes that for this Iran war to be resolved to give him enough time to maybe repair the damage in time for the midterm elections, he may well take that deal. So I think there could be some massive announcements coming out of Beijing, and it could precipitate the end of the war, which I suspect everybody would like to happen sooner rather than later. We've run out of time, but thank you all very much indeed. A very interesting debate, and I really appreciate all of you coming on. Thank you. Well, legions of fanatical followers are not something normally associated with CEOs, but rebel entrepreneur Ryan Cohen is no ordinary suit. Cohen is the boss of GameStop, the once ailing bricks and mortar video game store, which became a $10 billion business as the original meme stock. He made global headlines this month by launching an audacious $55 billion bid for eBay, and his first interview since that bid was emphatically rejected when he now joins me. Well, welcome, Ryan Cohen, to Uncensored.

[Ryan Cohen]

Nice to see you.

[Piers Morgan]

So you pulled off this extraordinary move where you made this gigantic bid for ebay, one of the biggest tech firms in the world. You tried to buy it and People immediately said where's the money going to come from? And I want to play a clip from an interview with CNBC that went a bit viral. When you seem to struggle to give the answer, maybe we can get some clarity. Let's take a look.

[Ryan Cohen]

I'm just trying to understand where the rest of the money would come from. Half cash, half stock. I hear you. I'm just saying that that math doesn't get you to the, to the price that you're offering. So that's a pretty straightforward question.

[Emily Schrader]

I don't get it.

[Piers Morgan]

Like where's the rest of the money coming from? Andrew laid it out pretty clearly.

[Ryan Cohen]

I don't understand your question. We're offering half cash, half stock and we have the ability to issue stock in order to get the deal done. But the full details of the offer on our are on our website.

[Piers Morgan]

So they seemed a bit baffled to be honest, Ryan, as is some other people. So Michael Burry, famous of course for the depiction of him and his shorting in the big short after the 2008 global financial crisis, he sold his entire position in your company GameStop immediately after that interview. He said never confuse debt for creativity. He called the potential deal a road to capitalist hell. So look, you've got the opportunity now in a very uncensored environment to clarify things. First of all, were you surprised by the reaction to your CNBC interview and not least Michael Burry immediately selling his entire position?

[Ryan Cohen]

I was surprised by their lack of understanding of, of the structure because it's very simple. It's half cash, it's half stock. We have the ability to issue stock. Essentially the ebay shareholders are going to continue owning ebay, except it's going to be run by an owner operator as opposed to an entrenched management team that has zero invested in zero skin in the game. And the other half of the structure, we've got 9 billion of cash on our balance sheet and our bankers have advised us that they feel confident in our ability to raise 20 billion. So it's a straightforward deal but you know, it was, it was too complicated for them on cnbc.

[Piers Morgan]

Yeah, I mean, look, I know those guys at cnbc. They're extremely smart. Particularly comes to business, they seem completely baffled and didn't think your maths added up. You make it sound very simple. Why are they so bemused?

[Ryan Cohen]

I don't know. Maybe they spent too much time in college or something. I have zero idea.

[Piers Morgan]

Michael Burry is no fool. I'm sure you'd agree with that. He was the guy that predicted the crash in 2008. They made a movie about him. Is he completely wrong as well? Why is he just bailed out completely following that interview?

[Ryan Cohen]

You'd have to ask him. I can't speak for him. There's going to be leverage, more leverage than he likely anticipated. But I don't want to run a leveraged business and I feel very good about our prospects to cut $2 billion of cost out of the business and likely a lot more than that. But I can't speak for Michael.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, look, you're obviously extremely smart business guy. You've made billions doing what you do and we'll come to some of the things you've done. So I'm not putting myself on your level at all here, but the CNBC people aren't stupid, nor is Michael Burry. And the general reaction has been one of severe doubt that you can finance this deal in the way that you are making sound so simple. What do you say to everyone who doesn't think this adds up?

[Ryan Cohen]

Well, first of all, in terms of skepticism, there's always been a lot of skepticism around GameStop. It's a business that was highly shorted and everyone was betting against it and it should have gone bankrupt many times over and it didn't. And now it's highly profitable. Chewy. There was a lot of skepticism going head to head against pets.com and then competing against Amazon. In this case, it's less about the actual financing and it's more about dealing with an entrenched board and management team that ultimately if this transaction goes through, they rejected it. And overall they were right. It's not attractive to them because if this deal goes through, the board that made $4 million in director fees last year is kaput and they're gone. And the management team that's making hundreds of millions of dollars in risk, risk free compensation and is never. The CEO has never invested a dollar of his own money since being CEO. So that's the problem. The problem is we need to go, you know, we need to, we need to deal with the owners of the business as opposed to a management team and board that has perverse financial incentives. And they're just employees. It's a paycheck. They're not the owners.

[Piers Morgan]

The eBay response from their chairman Paul Pressler in a letter to you was we have concluded that your proposal is neither credible nor attractive. And they laid out six factors affecting their decision. One, eBay standalone prospects. They said ebay will do better going it alone. Two, the uncertainty regarding your financing proposal. In other words, they don't think you have enough money via GameStop. The impact of your proposal on ebay's long term growth and profitability. In other words, concerns for the future success of the company due to the talk of cuts, the leverage, operational risks and leadership structure of the combined entity. In other words, you might damage E Berma long term by combining it with GameStop and poor management. The resulting implications of these factors on valuation. You might make ebay less valuable due to your management style and GameStop's governance and executive incentives. In other words, they don't think you're fit to run ebay. What is your kind of overall response to the ebay management team?

[Ryan Cohen]

I'm not like them. I'm an owner operator. I'm not a. I'm not the one of the country club executives that get recruited through these professional agencies. So my incentives are aligned with maximizing shareholder value and the way to do that at any company is to make the business stronger and much more profitable. So I mean they're gonna throw up every single one of these excuses. The bottom line is we offered shareholders a 46% premium to when we originally started buying it and they didn't even take me up on my offer to meet with them. And they did all this BS stuff with their advisors and issued a public press release but didn't set up a meeting with me. So ultimately it's up to the owners of the business. They're just in the way.

[Piers Morgan]

But on the specific point that people who are criticizing this have made, my understanding is the cash part of the offers expect to be funded by, as you've illustrated, a combination of cash and liquid investments on your balance sheet at GameStop, which totaled $9.4 billion as of January 31 this year, and third party acquisition financing with up to $20 billion in debt financing from TD Securities. Now people have said that with GameStop currently valued at $10.69 billion, assuming GameStop's providing all its stock for the deal, you're looking at a $16 billion shortfall. So purely for viewers who don't want to get too much in the weeds, that is the weeds of this and why people are skeptical to that specific point. What do you say?

[Ryan Cohen]

Well, there's dilution, but there's two kinds of dilution. There's dilution that's dilutive earnings per share and there's dilution that's accretive to earnings per share. So ultimately, this is not the first scenario where a smaller business has combined with a Larger business ultimately here what's changing is the management team and the board and it's, it would be run by me as opposed to a bunch of professional directors.

[Piers Morgan]

And you want ebay ultimately, as you've put it, to be a legitimate competitor to Amazon. So obviously they operate in a similar kind of marketplace way. What would be the first things you do? I mean poly market at the moment, the prediction market has a 16% possibility that you will still acquire ebay. So clearly and certainly from your rhetoric and misinterview, you're not giving up at all in your pursuit of it. If you were to get your hands on it, what would be the things you would immediately do to try and be more competitive with Amazon?

[Ryan Cohen]

Well, when I say Amazon, it's not going head to head in first party large categories like consumables. And ebay is the place where you go to buy a rare pen or a trading card or something like that. Amazon is the place where you go to buy a phone charger. So it's not to beat Amazon at its own game. When I say, when I say Amazon, it's building something that's much larger. And I believe that the business, I don't believe I would make the business much, much more profitable. Get by getting rid of the bloat and running it more like a family business as opposed to a gigantic corporation and moving much more quickly and focusing, going deep into other categories like live commerce where ebay has not been able to compete and has all of the assets in order to compete. And there's a lot of other categories where ebay can do a lot better. So the web, they're spending, by the way, they're spending over 50% of their revenues on operating expenses. And the website still looks like it did an 1995. So it's a great business. And if you look at the financial performance of the company over the past five years, it's done terribly. And if you look at since the financial crisis, there's been a lot of competition in e commerce by way of from the Shopify of the world to social commerce to Amazon. And yet ebay is still there in spite of having a really shitty management theme. So I love the asset. It's run by a bunch of losers and it's something that can be a lot more successful if it was run by an owner that's an op, an entrepreneur that has not just a much larger vision, but knows how to run a business and make a lot of money and cares. Because I have my own money on

[Piers Morgan]

the Line, you sound, I don't like

[Ryan Cohen]

the management team, right. I don't like the board of directors and I have such disdain for these people that make hundreds of thousands to ten tens of millions of dollars in risk free compensation and everything is done in, in the name of corporate governance and all stuff like that. But they don't give a crap about shareholders.

[Piers Morgan]

You're sounding a little bit like Elon Musk. Would you take that as a compliment?

[Ryan Cohen]

I mean, Elon has made history multiple times. So you know, he's, he's one of the greatest entrepreneurs of, of our time.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you know him and you speak to him?

[Ryan Cohen]

We've, we've, we've messaged, but we don't have a personal relationship.

[Piers Morgan]

And what about Jeff Bezos? I mean the moment he hears someone say we're going to compete with Amazon, he might take a view. We're going to crush you. What would you say if he decides to try and crush you?

[Ryan Cohen]

Well, we went head to head against Amazon selling 30 pound bags of pet food and we did okay. And he's no longer running the business. You know, he's. So that's okay. Competition is good. But, but ebay has a moat and, and they're not going head to head against Amazon. And I, my, my, my vision is not to go head to head against Amazon, it's to run ebay and to make it a much better, more profitable, larger ebay. And it's something that should be worth a lot more than it's, than it's worth because it can grow a lot more and it's going to make a lot, a lot more money. So

[Piers Morgan]

if you type your name into Google, there are lots of variants of Ryan Cohen a genius, Ryan Cohen a half wit, and everything in between. You've probably seen it all yourself. You probably Google yourself, like all good public figures. But for viewers who are not familiar with your story, you founded an e commerce pet food company called Chewy and it did fantastically well. You sold it for $3.35 billion in 2017. Conversely, you had a 10% stake in Bed, Bath and Beyond. In March 2022, you called for changes at the company, as you are doing now with ebay. You sent shares up as much as 70%. Five months later, you disclosed you'd sold your stake and the shares spiraled. So people look at the first one and think genius. Second one, think sharp operator. Can we really trust it? What would you say to people that have that view of you?

[Ryan Cohen]

I've done two things. I built and was the CEO of Chewy, and I'm the CEO of GameStop. So those are. Those. Those were the companies where I was involved personally building and running those companies. And in terms of other stuff and investments in Bed Bath, I wasn't running that business. That was again, a professional management team that remarkably ran a business that was a great business into the ground very, very, very quickly. And it's remarkable what they did. Not in a good way, but, you know, they ran the business to the ground and they were buying back stock while losing hundreds of millions of dollars. So. But I wasn't running that business.

[Piers Morgan]

There are lots of top business people who were on Air Force One with President Trump flying to Beijing, where there's spent to be a lot of activity in the next few days. Obviously, you weren't on the plane. Would you like to have been? Because I understand you are quite a supporter of Donald Trump.

[Ryan Cohen]

I am, but I am focused on running Gamestop and I'm focused on taking over ebay.

[Piers Morgan]

Have you spoken to Donald Trump at all about any of this?

[Ryan Cohen]

I have not.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you anticipate doing so?

[Ryan Cohen]

I. I mean, if it. If it's. If it's a. If it's appropriate and it makes sense. Right now I'm dealing with a bunch of professionals that are, in the way.

[Piers Morgan]

You're sounding quite pumped up and ruthless, Ryan. I mean, if the ebay executives are watching this, should they be quivering in their overpaid, bloated boots?

[Ryan Cohen]

They're going to do whatever they need to do to protect their jobs. I understand it's survival. It's a paycheck for them, but I want to run that business. I'm passionate about E commerce. That's my core competency, and I want to make it a much larger business. So I would like for them to engage with me constructively as opposed to giving me a BS response and not really understanding the components of the deal. Because it's attractive to shareholders, and that's their job, is to be a fiduciary of money that really. They're not the owners. They're far from the owners. They don't. They don't invest their own money. They're milking it. So they have a job to do the best for shareholders and engage on this. And if they don't, then we'll do whatever we need to do.

[Piers Morgan]

I mean, that sounds almost mafioso

[Ryan Cohen]

sa it's business

[Piers Morgan]

polymarket, as I said, have you at 16% to be successful in acquiring ebay, what would you put the percentage at?

[Ryan Cohen]

What were the what did they say the odds of Trump winning the presidency were?

[Piers Morgan]

Probably first time, less than 16% at the end. Actually,

[Ryan Cohen]

if we ask them, going head to head against Amazon, selling 30 pound bags or turning around GameStop for that matter. Actually, I mean everyone in the mainstream media, most investors were betting against GameStop. And look at the financial performance of the company. It went from losing hundreds of millions of dollars to now it's making hundreds of millions of dollars. And everyone makes fun of GameStop. No one takes it seriously. All of Wall street wrote it off. But it's a real business. Not. It's not a good, it's not like ebay. It's not a great business. It's physical retail. It's tough, it's dealing with a lot of headwinds. But I'm skepticism is okay. It's good, it's normal.

[Piers Morgan]

Do you have a favorite GameStop meme yourself?

[Ryan Cohen]

There's a lot of them and there's a lot of funny ones.

[Piers Morgan]

Well, Ryan, it's good to talk to you. It's going to be fascinating to see what happens. And I'll send your regards to the CNBC guys who I'm sure will be most entertained by your description of them. But thank you very much, Steve, for joining me.

[Ryan Cohen]

Yes, definitely. Nice to talk to you.

[Piers Morgan]

Here's Morgan. Our sense that he's privately independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan uncensored on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.