Xander Marin (2:11)

Been in a relationship 18 years.

Vanessa Marin (2:13)

I don't think they give licenses out for that. Where'd you get this license?

Xander Marin (2:17)

Who's your governing body from the state of. Don't worry about it.

Vanessa Marin (2:24)

That's pretty good.

Xander Marin (2:25)

The state of Mind your own business. Um, no, but. But for real, I don't have a license other than a class C driver's license. Um, but no, I've. I've been in a relationship with. I've been in a relationship for a very long time. I've been married for a very long time. I've been working with Vanessa, who is pretty exceptional at what she does for a very long time. And I am both kind of like the. Have the regular person's perspective of having been in a relationship, in a marriage for a long time. But also, I have a little more than that at this point. People used to get mad at me when I said, I'm just a regular dude, because maybe I was a regular dude at the beginning, but, you know, you can't do this work. You know, I've been doing this with you side by side for almost five years now. And I don't think you can really claim to just be like, oh, I'm just an everyday person, when, like, literally this is what we talk about day in and day out for the last five years. So, you know, I have that regular person's perspective and more, you know, I like to see things just. I try to take more of the everyday person's viewpoint and apply that to, you know, some of the more, you know, academic type of concepts that we talk about.

Vanessa Marin (3:33)

Your license is through osmosis.

Xander Marin (3:35)

Yes. Yeah, the classic through osmosis license. All right, well, let's just get right into it. Let's get into the big heavy hitter that everyone wants to know. How old is too old to have sex, Right? Like, there's got to be a cutoff. There's got to be a limit. It's not safe. It's going to kill you. We're just putting you off to pasture.

Vanessa Marin (3:53)

That's what I really wonder. Like, what do people think happens when you get to a certain age?

Xander Marin (3:58)

Well, I mean, my.

Vanessa Marin (3:59)

They're asking.

Xander Marin (3:59)

I mean, your genitals don't just shrivel up and slowly die.

Vanessa Marin (4:03)

Don't say that. People are going to believe you. No, I mean, obviously our bodies change as we get older, and you may have different challenges, you know, different parts of your life than you would in earlier parts of your life. But there's no such thing as too old to have sex. Like, as long as you're feeling good and want to stay connected to your partner, keep having sex. There isn't something. I feel like we're so afraid of aging in this country in particular, that we just get really freaked out about it. And again, like, I. I want to acknowledge, of course there are changes, but you can still have a perfectly happy, active sex life for your entire Life.

Xander Marin (4:42)

You might get too old to have certain types of acrobatic sex or certain types of extremely vigorous sex. But still, that's like on a case by case basis, right? Like, what is your fitness level? What is your ability level? There's no one size fits all, like. Oh, well, yeah, Once you get to 83, it's actually people who have sex at 83 and older just die. There's no, there's no statistic that says that.

Vanessa Marin (5:06)

So we have done a really big poll of our community asking people about their sex lives to date. Oh my God. How many people have felt like, last time I checked, 70,000.

Xander Marin (5:18)

70,000?

Vanessa Marin (5:19)

Yeah. We might have even had more by this point. But we did look specifically at age and we found that age actually did not have a huge impact on sexual frequency. So as age increases, we saw a slight decrease in sex sexual frequency. But in general, like most couples across the lifespan, across their ages tended to fall into three groups. So we found that 75% of our respondents fell into three groups and it was evenly split. So it was like 25, 25, 25. And those three groups were a couple of times a month, two to three times a month, once a week, and two to three times a week. And even as people got older, those were still the three most common age buckets.

Xander Marin (6:05)

Yeah. As people did get older though, I think that as we got started to get more into the extremes, it started to be more people shifted into the lower end of those three buckets.

Vanessa Marin (6:15)

But we did find something really interesting. People ages 50 plus are just as likely as people aged 18 to 29 to be having sex four plus times a week. Like four or more times a week.

Xander Marin (6:29)

Yeah. So like most people were in the two once a month, two to three times a month and two to three times a week. So the four plus times a week is sort of like the higher end of the options that fewer people were in overall. But as you got older, you actually became more likely to be in that bucket. In addition to the fact that also more people were in the starting to get into the lower ends, it was like, this is a technical, not technical is a big word bifurcation. Like the distribution starts to split and like a lot of people are moving more towards the less end, but then some people are moving more towards the higher end.

Vanessa Marin (7:10)

Yeah. So overall there is no age that is too old to have sex. And I think we need to celebrate sex at every age.

Xander Marin (7:17)

Yeah, well, I mean, I think, I think it's easy to explain that in many ways, like so yes, age may be playing a factor with some people moving to the having it less, but that also may be that people are having it less because as people get older, like, maybe, you know, you have more free time.

Vanessa Marin (7:36)

You're retired.

Xander Marin (7:37)

Yeah. So I mean, I'm saying there's two reasons. Like, it could go down because, yeah, maybe you're getting older, your health is deteriorating, maybe you lose your partner or something. So you don't have someone to be having regular sex with. So that's very much a possibility. That's one reason why more people could be ending up in those less frequent buckets.

Vanessa Marin (7:56)

And.

Xander Marin (7:56)

But on the flip side, you also have more time available to you. You have no kids around the house anymore. You have no risk of pregnancy anymore, no responsibility. Yeah. You are unencumbered by all these reasons that used to keep you from having more sex. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, sky's the limit. We can do it whenever we want. Like, no risk, no worry about getting caught. No, like, you know, no nothing. And so you do have a definite, a sizable group of that population all of a sudden being like, oh, now we're having more sex than we've ever had before. So it does not need to mean, oh, I'm getting older, I can't have sex anymore.

Vanessa Marin (8:37)

Also, the highest STI transmission rates are with people 65 and older.

Xander Marin (8:42)

Yeah. Because they're getting it on.

Vanessa Marin (8:43)

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Yeah, we got Chauncey and Maggie's bully sticks on Chewy. We got Maggie's medication.

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Xander Marin (11:11)

All right, so let's talk about libido now, because this was the biggest category of questions that we got. Lots of people asking about how libido changes as you get older. Being worried about how libido is going to change or super worried about how it is very much changing currently. So we got a couple libido questions. My husband's drive has gone down, but mine has gone up. Is that normal?

Vanessa Marin (11:33)

So, yes, that totally is normal, but it's also normal for that just to be the pattern. Like, I think in male female relationships, we have this idea in our head that men are supposed to be the ones who want sex more and they want sex all the time. But we've actually polled our audience and we found that in fact, 45% of male female relationships, it's actually the woman who wants sex more. So we have a whole podcast episode about that. If you want to dive into it. It's called when she wants it More.

Xander Marin (12:02)

Yeah, what, what I will say about this because I'm, I'm going through a bit of this myself and starting to learn more about it. And to be super clear, I'm not a doctor, so talk to your doctor about any of this if you're interested in it. But yes, as men get older, testosterone levels tend to decrease and libido tends to decrease with your testosterone. It's not like a one for one correlation. The way it's been explained to me is that in general, like your, your libido as a man is not going to disappear unless your testosterone is Very dangerously low. Like your, your entire sex drive is one of the very last things to go. Like you have to be really, really at the bottom end of the scale. That being said, generally higher testosterone levels with also like good health and like not super high stress are probably going to result in higher levels of desire overall. And I think, you know, the interesting thing is that, you know, most doctors won't just by default test your testosterone levels unless you specifically ask them to. And also the general like, guidelines in the US of like what the acceptable range of testosterone is for men is like on the low end, it's pretty low. And so I think there's a lot of men that don't like trigger a flag with a result. Whereas in reality if their levels were higher, they might be having a generally higher quality of life. And that was my case for a while. I was kind of in the lower end of the range. A normal kind of like western medicine doctor would have been like, your testosterone's fine, don't worry about it. I was working with a more like functional type of doctor who was like, look, based on your level of fitness, your activity level, like what you do in life, you would greatly benefit from having much higher testosterone levels. And so I started doing testosterone replacement therapy. For me, it's been really great. It's also been a lot of work. It's been a lot of work because you have to be getting your levels tested a lot. You have to be willing to try different approaches, willing to possibly inject yourself, like, so it's a whole thing. I'm not going to say go do like everyone should do that, because you shouldn't. It can be a real pain in the ass. You have to be willing to spend a lot and go to the doctor a lot. But it is a possibility. You can kind of take that into your own hands if you want to. So I'm just going to mention that as a possibility for people.

Vanessa Marin (14:28)

Yeah, I always hesitate talking about hormones with sex drive because people have this tendency to think that the hormones are the number one thing and we're not. Yeah, we put all of our, oh my libido's, it must be my hormones. And hormones in reality are just one very small piece of the puzzle. There tend to be so many other things feeding into libido. And some of the most common things that we see are actually lack of emotional connection in the relationship, sexual pain and unpleasurable sex. And those things are trickier to resolve than, hey, let me just go see a doctor and get on some sort of, you know, hormones. So it's always. Yeah, it's always tricky to bring up to talk about it. That being said, if you're somebody who all the other stuff is in a good place and it's just a hormonal issue, you can definitely notice a big difference.

Xander Marin (15:21)

Yeah. Because I think ultimately sleep, stress and fitness are three things that are going to hugely play into your level of desire. Um, and, you know, and especially stress. Stress is such a big one that most people are not willing to accept. And so, yeah, you get. You could jack your testosterone up, like, to the very top end of the range. And if you're stressed the out all the time, like, who, like, who cares? Like, it's not going. You're not going to be like, oh, my libido is sky high. Like, you're just going to be stressed out all the time. Like, that is like stress and sleep and, and just general, like, fitness and health is always going to override, like, your kind of baseline hormone level. But yeah, it's like, if you are like, hey, I'm consistently working on all these things, I'm doing everything right, and it just doesn't feel like I'm feeling the way I'm supposed to, then it's worth considering looking at the hormones. All right, so with that being said, that brings us nicely into our next question, which is how much of a drop in libido is normal before it is a health concern?

Vanessa Marin (16:27)

This is a really tough one to answer because it's not like there's like a number, you know, a gradient or something like that.

Xander Marin (16:34)

What is your libido rating today?

Vanessa Marin (16:35)

Yeah, but I would say, you know, if you notice a very sudden and to you it feels like, whoa, what happened to me? I don't feel like myself, then that can be something to check in with a doctor about.

Xander Marin (16:49)

Yeah, I mean, I think again, for me, this really gets back to the big three things I just mentioned before. This, like sleep stress and health fitness. And I think, like, if you are getting really, really, really honest with yourself, because I think the reality, the unfortunate reality is most people are not really willing to be honest with themselves as they need to be about these three things. I think most people think, oh, well, it's normal to be really stressed, or it's normal not to really, like, have time to really be invested in my health, or it's normal, nobody gets enough sleep. But if you can, if you are able to get really honest with yourself on all three of those and be like, okay, am I Like, are these things Genuinely in a good spot. Are there ways that I could improve any of these things on that is going to be. You're going to get much more bang out of your buck working on that, rather than trying to, you know, go see doctors or whatever to figure out your libido. Because honestly, those doctors are going to ask you those same questions. They're going to be like, all right, like, how much sleep are you getting? Like, how much stress are you under? You know, what is your. What does your fitness look like? So I think get really, really, really honest with yourself about those three things. And then, yeah, if you are at a point where you're at a point where you're like, ok, yeah, I'm, like, really diligent about this stuff and I'm still just like, not feeling the way that I used to, then, yes, absolutely, go talk to somebody about it.

Vanessa Marin (18:22)

Also, I'll say, if you feel like you have zero libido, like, just never have any interest in sex, then that can also be a sign to look out for and talk to your doctor about. That being said, though, you definitely need to check out our episode about mismatched sex drives in relationships. It's from about two months ago where we talk about the two sex drives, drive type, spontaneous and responsive. If you're a responsive desire person, you are not going to feel that mental desire for sex out of nowhere. You have to go listen to that episode. Because this is a really crucial misunderstanding that people have about sex drive. Like, we think it's just supposed to be spontaneous and we're just supposed to, like, get horny the way that we get hungry or get thirsty. And that's just not how our bodies work, especially for us women.

Xander Marin (19:10)

All right, embarrassing admission. We just recorded a couple accidental takes where I butchered this word. Absolutely. I'm going to try it one more time here. How do I navigate perimenopause and a decreasing drive while helping my husband understand it's not his fault? Peri. Say it all with me a couple times, people. Perimenopause. Perimenopause.

Vanessa Marin (19:33)

It's like a tongue twister for you. Like, you've heard this word a million times before. Perimenopause.

Xander Marin (19:38)

You know, it's funny because, yes, I've heard this word many times before. I'm not sure I've actually had to say this word very many times before. I read it a lot. I've heard you talk to me about.

Vanessa Marin (19:48)

It a lot, but I haven't said.

Xander Marin (19:49)

But I haven't been like, hey, Vanessa, what is it like being approaching Perry? Menopause. Oh, my God.

Vanessa Marin (19:55)

You can't say parameni.

Xander Marin (19:59)

It sounds. It just doesn't. My mouth, like, doesn't want to do it. Perimenopause.

Vanessa Marin (20:04)

That's what she said.

Xander Marin (20:05)

Perimenopause.

Vanessa Marin (20:08)

There you go.

Xander Marin (20:08)

Well, it's just funny, you know, I think what it is is because, okay, like, per is a normal prefix in English, but, like, Perry is not a normal prefix.

Vanessa Marin (20:20)

Oh, my God.

Xander Marin (20:21)

In English, I've never said a word that's like. It's like. It's like periscope, I guess that's the one thing I can think of. Are there any other peri. Words? Peri.

Vanessa Marin (20:29)

Peri. Peri.

Xander Marin (20:30)

But periscope. You don't say. It's not periscope. It's periscope. So para. Menopause. Perimenopause.

Vanessa Marin (20:40)

Okay, getting back to the question.

Xander Marin (20:41)

Perimenopause. Let's do it.

Vanessa Marin (20:43)

Okay.

Xander Marin (20:44)

Why don't you read the question again? Because I'm sure everyone's forgotten how to.

Vanessa Marin (20:47)

Navigate perimenopause and a decreasing drive while helping my husband understand it's not his fault. So I am. Okay. I am really glad that we are starting to talk about menopause and perimenopause much more openly because it's really important for people to be prepared, and not only just for women to be prepared and know what's coming our way, but also for the partners of women to understand what's coming their way.

Xander Marin (21:10)

Can we define what these two things mean, since I couldn't even say it?

Vanessa Marin (21:14)

Okay, so menopause is when you stop having your period. And perimenopause is a rough umbrella term that is used for the stages leading up to that, where basically women experience really drastic changes in our hormones and so many different systems in our bodies. So I often hear, like, jokingly referred to as, like, it would be, like, for men if you just got your balls chopped off. You know, just like, it's such a huge change. So I am really glad that we're talking about this more openly because people need to understand what to expect. And so I would suggest you educate yourself and educate your partner alongside you. So, again, we're not doctors. Like, we're not gonna get into all the medical details and all that, but I think, you know, finding podcast episodes, reading a book, finding, you know, people to follow on Instagram, and showing that content to your partner. So to really help them understand, here's what I'm going through. Like this. These are the changes that I'm going through.

Xander Marin (22:17)

Yeah, because I mean, I mean, look, I guess I'm thinking, like, you know, when I was a kid, we had those, like, you know, you're changing bodies type of things, like in class, like, oh, you're gonna go through puberty. Here's what's gonna happen. I guess that was kind of part of, like, early sex ed. So maybe not in the US now, not every school gets that. I don't even know. In schools that don't do sex ed, do they get the, like, you're going through puberty content or nothing. But okay, anyway, even if, like, we all in the US Got that type of content, it's like, you know, okay, we're on the same page about. All right, in general, here's what puberty is and here's how we change. But there's no, like, all right, now let's talk about how your bodies will continue to change. It's like, it's like puberty is going to bring you into adulthood and then you, like, get to whatever, the end of puberty, and it's like, all right, cool, You're. You're an adult. Like, nothing's going to really change drastically for a while. And I think. And at least men just kind of assume. Okay, yeah, it's just, you know, I'm here. Or maybe it starts to be a slow decline at some point, but we never talk about, okay, yeah, for women at a certain age, like, a lot of stuff happens and it's not just like, oh, we just kind of slowly decline as we get older. It's like, a lot of changes happen.

Vanessa Marin (23:31)

I'm curious to know if people want us to do a perimenopause and menopause specific episode. I will say, like, I really have resisted it because I'm not a doctor, and I always want to be so careful and respectful of not giving medical advice. Not like, stepping outside the bounds of my license. So we would not talk about it, you know, the medical aspects of it. But I do understand that for a lot of people, you know, of course, there are psychological impacts to it as well, which I can speak to. But I will say, like, one of the. So, yeah, let us know if that's something that you're interested in. The easiest way is you can leave a little Spotify comment if you're listening on Spotify, or you can come over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander, and that's Xander with an X. I will say, though, I've. I've felt really conflicted Myself because I am nearing perimenopause.

Xander Marin (24:24)

You're in the third category, which is early. Oh my God, I still can't say it. Early perimenopause.

Vanessa Marin (24:30)

There you go. You know, I'm not officially in that stage yet, but I'm getting very close to it. And so I have been trying to educate myself more and have been surprised, like, wow, nobody has been until I feel like maybe a year ago people started talking about it more on social. And I'm like, like literally for almost 40 years of my life, like I didn't know anything about menopause or perimenopause other than your period stops, but I didn't know anything about like the impacts that it could have, the changes to look out for, the symptoms of it, you know how big of a change it can feel for so many people. So I, for like a year I was just like looking at so much content and learning and like, okay, great, I know more what to expect. This is so interesting, but I've noticed I actually had to unfollow or mute pretty much all of the accounts that I was following online. Because for me, this is just for me, my experience started to be like, I'm getting really freaked out about entering this stage. Like, I'm feeling scared and it's feeling like this colossal, horrible thing that's coming my way and I'm starting to feel anxious about it. And for me, again, this is purely just my experience. But I think that there's a big difference between educating yourself and having a heads up and being prepared for something versus being terrified of it happening. And I'm like, even if I'm gonna have some, you know, potentially have some negative symptoms or experiences, like I don't want to be dreading this major season of my life, which, I mean perimenopause can be like 10 years menopause. I believe it's, you have to do, it's like a year without getting your period. That's like officially menopause. So this is gonna be a big ass chunk of my life and I don't want to be like terrified of it. So I unfollowed a bunch of stuff and I actually found, I found this really interesting. I gotta dig this up again. But there was a really interesting cross cultural study where they looked at what are in, in each culture, what are the attitudes around menopause and in the US like it's a very fear based attitude that a lot of us have. My life is over. It's gonna be horrible. Like this is gonna be such a terrible thing. And in other cultures, they look at it as this very positive thing. It's like a reawakening or it's a freedom because you don't have the risk of getting pregnant anymore. And in cultures where they have a more positive view of menopause, surprise, surprise. Women report experiencing far fewer symptoms, so.

Xander Marin (27:06)

They'Re literally manifesting positive outcomes for people.

Vanessa Marin (27:08)

So again, that's like another reason why I've hesitated to cover it since people have, you know, even though people have asked about it so much. But, yeah, I just want to be transparent. Those are the things going through my mind. But I think it's. I think it's important for all of us to find that balance between being knowledgeable and understanding what's coming versus being scared shitless about it. So anyways, let's move on. But I'm very curious to hear your thoughts.

Xander Marin (27:34)

You know, one other comment that I want to make about just the way that the question is worded, like, how do I navigate a decreasing drive while helping my husband understand it's not his fault. We talk about this a lot is like, sex drive does not need to be the be all, end all. If you enjoy sex, you enjoy the closeness that sex brings, or you just enjoy the experience of being intimate with your partner, you don't have to sit around waiting for desire to smack you in the face in order to have sex. Now it's a different story if you're like, all right, I've been, I've been trying to do all the things that get me in the mood. Or I've been, We've tried to have sex and we know we're in, you know, I'm not, I'm not self lubricating, so we're using lube. We're doing all the things and I'm still not finding any enjoyment in it. That's a different story. But if the reality is like, okay, I'm not sitting or I'm not fantasizing about it. I'm not like feeling like smacked across the face with desire or whatever. But like, it still feels important to you to want to be intimate, to have sex. And you know, you know the things that your body responds to and you want to trust that, hey, once we get started, I trust that we are going to have a good experience because we know what techniques work. We know, you know, we know how to initiate, we know how to make each other feel good and get excited. Then don't wait for the desire to hit you. Like, do the things that you know are going to get you there, get started and see what the experience is like now. Don't push through it if it's really unenjoyable. I'm not telling you to do that. But I do think that, yeah, if you're. If. And this gets back to what you were talking about, about cultural attitude towards it. If your attitude is, oh, well, once I get older, my sex drive is going to decrease and so I'm just not going to want sex then. Then in your mind, you've already primed yourself to think, okay, well, as my desire increases, we just don't do it as much. But the reality is, oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the one initiating it as often or I'm not the one that is like, I'm not having these exciting spicy thoughts anymore. That doesn't mean that you can't do it. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. You can't enjoy the pleasure that it brings you after you get started or the emotional closeness that it brings you on. You know, it's kind of, kind of like the gym in many ways. It's like sometimes you are really excited to go to the gym and work out. Oftentimes you are not really excited to go to the gym and work out. But by the time you walk out of there, almost 99% of the time you are happy that you did it and you're feeling good walking out.

Vanessa Marin (30:15)

Yeah, definitely. Listen to that mismatched sex drives episode because we talk about a lot, how most of us put way, way too much pressure on desire when desire is not the number one most important thing.

Xander Marin (30:27)

Yeah, it's just shifting your expectations, I think. Okay, yeah, of course I'm not going to be feeling as much desire, but that does not need to mean that my sex life gets, you know, changes appreciably. And so if that's the attitude that you have, then it's like, oh, okay, cool. Like this is just a puzzle. Like, okay, so I'm not going to feel that desire as much. So, okay, what else am I going to do instead to kind of keep. To maintain this, you know, the sex life or the relationship dynamic that we want to have.

Vanessa Marin (30:58)

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Xander Marin (33:31)

All right, our next one is how to feel sexy. Even though my partner and I don't look like our 20 year old selves anymore, my question is why do you like, why do you want to look like your 20 year old self? Because I know for me I just turned 40. When I see 20 year olds now, they look like babies to me. I do not like, like I'm, it worries me like that I used to find people of that age attract like I'm like oh that's creepy. Like but I guess back then it felt, it felt different to Me, but I'm like, oh God, that person's real young. So I mean that's my question is like, yeah, why do you want to be your 20 year old self? Because you are your however old you are self now.

Vanessa Marin (34:17)

Yeah, I'm with you. Like I don't, I'm not scared looking at 20 year olds but like I, I don't expect my body to look like my 20 year old self because I'm not 20 anymore. And obviously that's so much easier said than truly felt. We do have to acknowledge, especially as women, I'm guessing this woman, this question came from a woman. As women we get so much shitty socialization about our bodies, about aging. So most women feel deeply self conscious of their bodies and the ways that they're changing. And I'm not immune to that. I've definitely had moments of, oh, that is different now that's changing, that's starting to head south.

Xander Marin (34:59)

Doesn't help that a lot of, that a lot of like famous older men are with much younger women. That definitely doesn't help the conversation like.

Vanessa Marin (35:09)

Or that we see famous older women looking like 20 year olds.

Xander Marin (35:14)

True.

Vanessa Marin (35:14)

Jennifer Lopez. I'm like, what?

Xander Marin (35:17)

Well, I don't know if she looks 20 necessarily.

Vanessa Marin (35:21)

She looks insane and her body like insane. So yeah, we get like a whole bunch of crap just thrown on ourselves. But I think that there's really something to be said about having respect for our bodies at all ages and all stages. Like you just, you literally can't have your body look like your 20 year old body. So we can spend all this time and energy bemoaning the fact that we can't turn back time or we can find ways to love and respect our body as it is now, to treat our body with kindness, dress that is as, as it is now. And to also see the beauty in aging too. Like for example, crow's feet. Like I think crow's feet are really cute. I think that they're, you know, I'm like, that's a sign that I've done a lot of smiling, you know, in my life and like little smile lines too. So, you know, seeing the beauty in the ways that we're aging, I think gray hair can look really fucking sexy on so many people. I'm not, I don't have a, I haven't, I found like two gray hairs yet. I'm a little sad, but she can't.

Xander Marin (36:29)

Wait till I'm a silver fox.

Vanessa Marin (36:30)

I think you look super, super hot with gray hair and I think you look way hotter at 40 than you did at 20.

Xander Marin (36:37)

To be fair, I did not take good care of my body in my entire 20s, so.

Vanessa Marin (36:43)

But that's what I think it's more about. It's like, how are we treating our. I think you can tell when somebody is treating their body with love, kindness and respect. And it's not about what their body looks like, but there's just this energy when somebody treats themself well. That so fucking sexy and appealing. And also I think that there's something really beautiful about growing old with someone. Like you and I have spent almost 20 years together. Like I've seen your body go through a lot of changes and I think there's something really, really sweet about knowing I'm going to continue seeing it go through a lot of changes. And like, I will love your, I will love you and your body throughout all of that. And I know you will love me and my body throughout all of that. So it's also just, just. Yeah, again, like I, you know, I get it. I have my own insecurities. I'm not trying to act like I'm perfect about this, but I think there also is a lot of sweetness for us to lean into with this topic.

Xander Marin (37:38)

Yeah. All right, can I rephrase my, my.

Vanessa Marin (37:41)

Comment before about being scared of 20 year olds?

Xander Marin (37:44)

Yeah, no, it's not that bad. I mean, it's like, look, we, like you said, we have grown older with each other. We were with each other from our almost early 20s through till now.

Vanessa Marin (37:55)

Yeah, early 20s.

Xander Marin (37:56)

If, if we woke up tomorrow and you were back to 22 year old Vanessa, like that would be quite a shock for me. And I honest, like, I, I love you, babe. I'm not sure if I would feel okay with having sex with 22 year old.

Vanessa Marin (38:18)

I'm cheating on my wife.

Xander Marin (38:19)

Yeah. I mean it would feel like I'm cheating on my, on my wife because it's not the wife that I know now like you and yeah, like 20 year old, 22 year old. You would look so inappropriately young, would feel so inappropriately young even if somehow it was still you. And it's a weird thought experiment, but yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I mean, I think it's another story if your partner, you know, I don't know how old you guys are. It's a, it's another story if you're, you know, I'm just going to throw numbers out there. If you're 45 years old and your partner is like talking about how hot 20 year old women are and you know, following 20 year old women on Instagram and liking their photos and stuff, that's a different story. Like they're, you know, that's, that, that's, to me, that doesn't feel appropriate or respectful. And that's a whole other issue that is not a, a, that's not a referendum on you. Like, that says more about them and who they are. And I, I mean, I think that's like a serious issue that you want to think about. Like, you, because like, you, you can't fix that. Like, oh, well, if I just looked younger, then they wouldn't be looking at pictures of other people. Like, if they're, you know, if they're 20 years older than 20 year old women and just looking at 20 year old women, like, that's another problem. So I just kind of want to differentiate those two situations. All right, let's get into the next one. What are some easier positions that we can do as we get older and start having more mobility issues? Oh, so you're starting to have more mobility issues? What are easier positions that we can do?

Vanessa Marin (39:55)

Yeah, so, okay, this is a bit of a tricky question to answer because every body is different. I don't know the specific mobility issues that this person's having, but I think this is an opportunity to get curious and creative and see, like, what is feeling good for your body in this season of life. I think it's important for us to have that attitude all throughout our lives too, that we don't get into this rut of, oh, these are the things that we do in just this. We always want to be open and curious and like, oh, what if we tried this? Or what if we tried that? Okay, so that being said, first, a general tip is to find, like, props can really be very helpful. So having like pillows, blankets. We might have something to share with you soon. Just have to drop a little hint there. Just keep a little eye out. The props can really be your friends. Spooning can be a really. Oh my God, that's so cute. Sorry, guys. Chauncey's dead asleep next to us and he's wagging his tail very vigorously and twitching and twitching. Oh, my God, that was so cute. What an angel. Okay, let me get back to it. Spooning, where you're side by side facing the same direction, that can be a really nice, gentle, very easy position. I also like using like the edge of the bed or using chairs or couches. Again, the props kind of are your best friends. Like using different ways to get a little bit of leverage so you're not maybe leaning all of your body weight, like, on your wrists or on your knees or stuff like that. We also do have an incredible guide called the Ultimate Sex Guide that goes through 42 genuinely realistic positions. These are not, like, crazy acrobatic, not over the top. So we'll link that in the show notes for you. But that can be a really fun way to explore, experiment, find some new positions that are feeling good for your bodies right now.

Xander Marin (41:59)

Yeah, I was going to suggest that as well, because, you know, even if you're feeling like, hey, we have a good rotation of positions that we really love, the problem is some of them are starting to. To hurt or not feel comfortable or I'm starting to notice, like, aches and pains afterwards, and it's like, I totally understand. Like, oh, yeah, I. I don't want to have to stop doing this. You know, I don't know. I'm just giving examples like, oh, like, we love doggy style. And it feels like afterwards, like, my hips are not feeling good, and I don't want to have to stop. I totally get that. I think that it's. Yeah, it's like, as you get older and you're starting to notice that that that's where the actual technique really starts to get more important. I think a lot of us learn how, or think we learn how to do a certain position in a certain way, when in reality, there's actually a lot of variation in how you can do each position and how you can align yourselves, how you move and all that stuff. And like, that's the coolest thing that we got into in the Ultimate Sex Guide is like, I guarantee you, most of the positions that are in your rotation are going to be in the Ultimate Sex Guide side. But in addition to just that position, there's all these variations and modifications that most people who do this and get back to us about it are like, oh, my God, I didn't realize that there were, like, five different ways to do this position. Or there's like, 10 different, you know, ways that I could move slightly differently where, oh, all of a sudden we can still do that same position. But, like, you know, here's like, a really simple example. Like. Like in cowgirl, a lot of people think, like, oh, like, I'm supposed to be, like, really, like, bobbing up and down, like, all this pressure on my knees, and it's like, no, there's a. You can do that. That's like, absolutely the porn star way of doing it, but that's really, really hard on your Body. I don't even care how old you are. You know, like. Like, imagine you don't even see people, like, doing squats like that at the gym, right? Like, you don't start from the floor and go up a couple inches, right? Like, your knees aren't really meant to do that. That. So, yeah, it's like, oh, no. Like, you can. You can. You know, it's more like, try to be on your knees and be bouncing up and down. And then if that's hard, hey, try just rocking back and forth or grinding. And it's like, there's so many opportunities like this in so many positions that most people are not aware about. And that's. I think, like, that's the special sauce, so to speak, in. In what we do. It's not just like, oh, here's 40 positions, 42 positions. I was like, here's 42 positions times multiple variations in each one. That. So, like, you will find a way to make it work for you. All right, next up, vaginal dryness with age. How to make it better.

Vanessa Marin (44:38)

Yeah, this is a thing that happens for sure. You start getting drier. It's just harder for your body to produce the natural lubrication. But a quick point that we need to make about lubrication is it is not directly related to arousal. So you can be turned on, excited to have sex, ready to go, and not at all wet. You can be wet and not at all wanting to be having sex. So don't get yourself stressed out about, oh, this means I have low libido, or I never want sex anymore because I'm dry every time. It just naturally is what happens.

Xander Marin (45:11)

It means we need some external lubrication.

Vanessa Marin (45:14)

Lube. Lube is our friend. We recommend it to pretty much every couple. We think that lube really enhances the experience, can just make it so much more pleasurable and decrease discomfort. So lube is definitely gonna be your friend. Highly, highly recommend using it and try.

Xander Marin (45:31)

A bunch of different varieties of lube. That's, like, the biggest piece of advice I can give you. So many people are like, oh, I tried lube once, and it was disgusting and sticky, and I didn't like the way it felt, so I guess it's just not for me. And now I'm screwed because I'm dry and it's. No. There's multiple varieties of lube, and also every brand formulates it differently. I've tried plenty that are absolutely disgusting. I will never use those again again. But there are some brands that work great for us and it's just about finding the one that works for you. So don't. Don't be like, oh, I tried it once. It wasn't for me.

Vanessa Marin (46:05)

Yeah. And definitely talk to your doctor if you're experiencing, like, discomfort, pain, tearing, anything like that. Like, there are things that your doctor can do to help with vaginal moisture.

Xander Marin (46:17)

All right, Vanessa, is it true that your labia change and shrink when you get older? Older? Will that make it harder to have sex?

Vanessa Marin (46:25)

Okay, this was something that I learned just within this last year. I had no clue. Even as a sex therapist, even all the training that I went through, I never once learned that you can have changes to your labia when you go through menopause. But, yes, you absolutely can. It's mostly due to your changing estrogen levels. Like, a decrease in estrogen. The tissues of the Vulcan vulva can get a lot thinner. They can lose, like, their volume and elasticity, similar to, like, the. The volume and elasticity in our faces and, you know, skin all over our bodies changes as we get older. What the.

Xander Marin (47:08)

Yeah, I was like, you're really looking closely at yourself.

Vanessa Marin (47:10)

I have, like, a weird bruise. Where'd that come from? I don't know. Well, changes to the body as we.

Xander Marin (47:15)

Go, changes to bruising. I feel like that's a. That's a warning for a lot of things, but.

Vanessa Marin (47:20)

Okay, so, yes, we can notice changes to our labia, typically the labia minor, smaller ones that are more, like, closer to the vaginal opening. These are the ones that don't have pubic hair on them. Those are the ones that tend to experience more of the changes, and sometimes you can even lose them altogether.

Xander Marin (47:40)

Wow.

Vanessa Marin (47:40)

Like, you just don't have inner labia anymore.

Xander Marin (47:43)

Don't get too attached to them.

Vanessa Marin (47:46)

I have to admit, I was pretty sad when I learned that. I was like, oh, my God, I love my labia. I don't want them to change, but of course they're gonna change, just like the rest of your body can change. So it can. Like, for some women, it doesn't have any impact. For some, it can. It can cause, like, a little bit more tugging, friction. The vaginal tissues are really delicate and susceptible to tearing, so it can, like, create some discomfort. But again, lube.

Xander Marin (48:15)

Yes, more lube.

Vanessa Marin (48:16)

Talking to your doctor. You know, there definitely are things that they can do to help out. But, yeah, be prepared. If you're loving the podcast and wondering, okay, but how do I actually put this into practice in my relationship?

Xander Marin (48:33)

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Vanessa Marin (48:44)

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Xander Marin (48:53)

And we give you the expert tools you need to strengthen each one. And on top of that, you'll also get access to our core library of courses and guides like the Ultimate Foreplay Guides, the Ultimate Sex Guide, Art of Initiation, and so, so much more.

Vanessa Marin (49:07)

Plus, we drop two brand new date ideas every month. You get daily. Would you rather prompts, monthly live calls with us and fun intimacy challenges to keep your momentum going, going.

Xander Marin (49:17)

And oh yeah, Vanessa AI is there too, your personal on demand sex and relationship coach that is trained on everything, literally everything that we've ever created. So ask her anything and get instant expert backed answers.

Vanessa Marin (49:31)

So if you're ready to communicate better, feel more connected and turn up the heat on your sex life, head over.

Xander Marin (49:37)

To vmtherapy.com deeper and use code PILLOW for 25 off your first month. Just for pillow talks, listeners. Okay, how to keep our sex life exciting. As we get older, it feels like we've already tried everything. Really? How do you know?

Vanessa Marin (49:57)

Okay, well, I mean, here's the thing. So the advice to like, keep it spicy and to try new things in the bedroom, that actually is good advice. We do have research showing that our brains light up when we try new things with our partner. It keeps our, you know, relationship, our sex life feeling exciting. But that being said, I think that people get a little too in their heads when they think of trying new things. And they think that it has to mean like constantly trying new things, actual.

Xander Marin (50:25)

Brand new, like, we have never done this before, even thought about this until today.

Vanessa Marin (50:30)

Yeah, and it's like, I mean, sure, you probably could come up with like a million different ways to do tiny little things that are different. But like, there's really gonna be a limit to the amount of new stuff that you can try with each other. So I'd say don't think of it as it has to be brand new, but just think of it as trying to be thoughtful about not getting into a rut. So far. Too often in relationships we get this little routine of like, this is what we do, this is what sex looks like when we have it. And even making small changes, like initiate in a different way. Have sex, like flip around in your bed or maybe go over to the couch instead of in the bed, or try a position that you haven't tried in a while or play with a toy when you haven't in a while. So, like, it doesn't have to be brand new, but just like, mix it up a little bit.

Xander Marin (51:20)

Yeah. I mean, also think about earlier on in your relationship. It sounds like you've been with each other for a long time. So here's like a kind of a twofer that you can do. This is great for emotional connection and also for digging up ideas for things to keep it spicy. Because keeping it spicy doesn't have to be brand new. It can be something that has been out of the rotation for a long time. Think about some of your earlier sexual memories. Like. Like, what were some of the more exciting things that you guys used to do that you don't do that much now? And so actually spend some emotional connection time, like reminiscing about those and like, talk to your partner. Hey, I was. I was just remembering that time that we. Blah, blah, blah. It was so fun. Like, that is gonna feel fun and make you feel close, but then also try bringing some of those things back. Like increase the size of the rotation of things that you're doing. Doing. Like that is just as good as trying something totally brand new. Also, I will throw in a vote for retry things that you maybe tried a long time ago that didn't go so well or you didn't love. Because the reality is our bodies change, our preferences change. Like, I don't know, for example, Vanessa and I on my birthday trip last month, we tried, like, we tried a position that we hadn't. That we hadn't done in a really long time. I feel like we must not have really done it because, like, it didn't really work for us.

Vanessa Marin (52:44)

Oh, yeah.

Xander Marin (52:46)

But, like, we retried a certain position because we were staying in a hotel with a bed that was like the right height for it. We were like, oh, let's just try this. It was a thing that I totally in my head was like, I'm not into this. I'm not into this position. Yeah, I just had it in my head that I wasn't into this because it had to do with me, like, me standing up. And I had it in my head. I don't like standing. Like, I've never enjoyed standing up sex. And we just did it because the bed was the right height and it was like, holy. Like, how have I been missing out on this my entire life now? The reality is it probably just wasn't that enjoyable when I tried it a long time ago. And. But like, we loved it and have been. Have reincorporated that into our Sex life. And it's like, oh my God. It's like everything went up a notch. And it's just like, I wonder how many of those things are there that we're just kind of like, disregarded and forgotten about that actually, if we tried again, would be totally awesome. So I would encourage you to. Don't feel like, oh, we tried it and it sucked 20 years ago. So it's off the table. Like, yeah, try to dredge up some of the old stuff. The old stuff that you enjoyed and the old stuff that was like, maybe kind of meh. Cause you might just love. Love it.

Vanessa Marin (54:01)

Okay, I'm gonna give you the last question. Xander. When a man starts having difficulty with getting an erection, what can we do to maintain intimacy?

Xander Marin (54:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really good question. I think that. I think the key is that this is not something that you're gonna solve for your partner. Like, this isn't like, oh, what can I do to, to like, to like, fix this for him? This has to be something that you are willing to talk about together in a non judgmental and just open and honest way. Because this is a reality of what can happen as, as we age. And so I think that, like, this is where you need to get down to the kind of the bottom line of what is your partner's experience with this? Like, is your partner feeling like. Like, hey, I really, like, I, I'm really bummed out about this. I really, like, want to be able to get an erection and I want to be able to be having more sex. And I feel like, you know, the, my difficulties getting an erection are stopping me from having the sex life that I want. Or is it that, yeah, you know what? Like, I'm like, I am struggling to get an erection and that doesn't actually bother me. But what's more important is how you feel, what your experience is. I still want to make sure that you're feeling satisfied during sex sex. Because I think that when we don't have those conversations, it's easy to start making a lot of assumptions. Like, assume, oh, well, my partner must, must really want to be having sex, but they can't get an erection. And so I need to figure out a way to like, get my partner to talk to a doctor about getting on ED medication or something. Or you make the assumption, oh, they must not want that. And, and it's, it's never goes well when we assume for what our partner's experience is for us. So I think you gotta be able to just open up, up that baseline. Real honest, non judgmental conversation. Because their experience could be wildly different from what you think. And so, yeah, if your partner's experience is, you know what, this is really hard for me. I really want to be having more sex. And like, like, I mentally I really want it, but physically I'm not able to get there, then yeah, like, then maybe you could, you know, kindly encourage them to, to see a doctor, maybe talk about ED medication, see if that's a good fit for them or if on the flip side, if your partner's like, you know what, like this is happening, it's really not actually bothering me very much. I'm not like feeling, I'm not feeling like I'm missing out on orgasms or like I'm not coming away feeling sexually frustrated from this. But what's more important is just like that you're getting satisfied. Then talk about, okay, so what are some other activities other than PNV intercourse?

Vanessa Marin (56:41)

Mm.

Xander Marin (56:41)

I'm not even gonna say take intercourse off the table because they can still use like toys or tools to, to basically have intercourse with you without a hard penis. But yeah, like, so how can we shift our sex life so that you can get the pleasure and the satisfaction that you want? And, and bottom line too, you can still talk to them about, hey, even without a hard penis, are there ways that I can give you some amount of pleasure or enjoyment from this? So it's really just an opportun, an invitation to talk about what do we want our sex life to look like rather than, I think the. I think that so many of us are inclined to, to bury our heads in the sand when this is happening because it's like, oh God, it's like, it's like a referendum on my manhood or oh my God, it's a referendum on me as a partner and whether I'm attractive enough for them. And so we at all costs just want to avoid the conversation. I guarantee you, you. It's not about either of those things. Yeah, the bottom line is just what do we want our sex life to look like? And then let that inform. Okay, do we need to talk to a doctor? Okay, do we need to shift the activities in our sex life?

Vanessa Marin (57:46)

Definitely talk to a doctor though, because there are lots of erection boosting things that can be done these days. Okay, let's wrap up with a couple of sweet messages that we got from our community when we originally posted the question saying, like, hey, what questions do you have about sex and aging? I a bunch of people like, totally unprompted reached out and said, like, hey, I want to share this message with your listeners. So one person wrote, my confidence has gotten so much better as I've gotten older. I wish I knew that in my 20s.

Xander Marin (58:14)

People overestimate the downside of aging, loss of looks, et cetera, and ignore the upsides, feeling more free and confident.

Vanessa Marin (58:22)

It can get better. We're having the best sex now at 57 and 65.

Xander Marin (58:27)

My sex life is better at 41 after 21 years together than it was in the Newlywed days. I mean, this. That's our situation. Absolutely. I wrote that in.

Vanessa Marin (58:35)

I'm a little offended that they responded like I'm 41, to a post about sex and aging, but all right, we'll take it. This one made me laugh so hard. Is there a science on what age men begin to wear unattractive tall dad socks and dad tennis shoes? But then somebody totally different responded. As I've gotten older, I am now into ankle socks.

Xander Marin (58:56)

Okay, so sock socks. Sock height is not a correlation to age. And I mean, I will say I think the kids are wearing higher socks with shorts these days. That's all the rage. You know, I'm up to date on things. I might be 40, but I'm young at heart. I just want everyone to know that. And I am. I'm just wearing mid rise, mid rise socks today. So I'm toeing the line.

Vanessa Marin (59:19)

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We will. We release new episodes every Thursday.