Vanessa Marin (2:46)

This feels like a leading question, but I'm glad we have it because we do need to talk about something really important. So we actually hate the word foreplay.

Zander Marin (2:56)

We do. We're anti foreplay, but not in the way you think.

Vanessa Marin (2:59)

Yeah, we have these ultimate foreplay guides that are our best sellers in our business. And literally on the second page of the guide, it says, we hate the word foreplay.

Zander Marin (3:09)

Yeah, we'd love to name it something else, but we really can't because then people won't know what it is.

Vanessa Marin (3:14)

Yeah, everybody knows the word foreplay, so we tend to default to using the words that people know and use rather than trying to make something else up that confuses people.

Zander Marin (3:23)

But, yeah, you don't want to name something. Something where you have to then describe what the thing is. Right. Like a name needs to just immediately imply to anyone looking at it, oh, I know exactly what this is. So we're kind of stuck.

Vanessa Marin (3:37)

So, yeah, we don't like the word foreplay because in the word, it's this assumption that, like, the four part of it, like, these are the things that come before the main event. Like, you do these things first, then you have intercourse and. Intercourse. Or what did you call it in?

Zander Marin (3:53)

Wait, did I say inner?

Vanessa Marin (3:55)

No, you said something weird, Ender. I've already forgotten it. Okay. But, yeah, we treat. Especially in male, female relationships, we have this tendency to treat intercourse as the main event. And foreplay is, you know, these things that, let's be real, most of us spend like 30 to 90 seconds on before we scoot on to intercourse.

Zander Marin (4:12)

Oh, yeah. Or. Or it's like the foreplay things are the things that, you know, as you were kind of coming of age sexually, it was the stuff that you did before you got to the main event. You know, it's like, oh, I got to second base. I got the third base.

Vanessa Marin (4:24)

But the truth is, everything counts as sex. Like, whatever you want sex to be, that's what sex is. And there is no hierarchy here. Like, having oral sex isn't any better or worse or more advanced or less advanced than having intercourse. Being fingered isn't like, you know, it's just like, whatever you enjoy, whatever brings you pleasure, that's what matters most. And I think actually it's good that you brought up the. You know, when we're Becoming sexually active. Most of us tend to think of these things as they feel like small steps, like, okay, I'll let my partner finger me. That doesn't feel nearly as intense or overwhelming or intimate as intercourse. And I think that is true when you're first becoming experienced, you know, having your first experiences. But by the time you're, you know, an adult and you're on your fifth romantic relationship, it's like, you know, or you're in a long term relationship, it's like all those things really even out.

Zander Marin (5:21)

Well, yeah, you've had plenty of experience with all those things and you're not like, oh, oh my God, intercourse is so much. It's like, oh, no, this is something I've done with my partner all the time. Like, I'm familiar with this. It doesn't feel intimidating to me.

Vanessa Marin (5:33)

Are you familiar with this intercourse? So, yeah, like, oral sex counts as sex. Manual stimulation counts as sex. And the other interesting thing to recognize about foreplay is that for women, women are far more likely to orgasm from foreplay than they are from intercourse. We've polled our audience before and we asked women, is intercourse the thing that brings you the most pleasure? Are you most likely to orgasm with intercourse? 91% of women said no. 91%. So you are way more likely to make her orgasm with your hands, your mouth a toy, than you are through intercourse. So that's another reason why we need to elevate the foreplay experience and give it the respect that it deserves, because that's really where she's going to feel the most pleasure.

Zander Marin (6:23)

And to be super clear, I feel like I have to jump in and say this for all the guys that are listening to that and are their ears are perking up and they're like, oh my God, sweet. Are you saying that, like, we shouldn't be having intercourse? We are not anti intercourse. We are not saying anything like you're doing it wrong by wanting to have intercourse. All we are saying is that intercourse for most women is not as pleasurable as it is for most men. Most men tend to prefer, you know, when we do that same poll, a majority of men say that intercourse is their most pleasurable event or activity, followed by blowjobs. Hand jobs are last. Even though I would argue hand jobs can be pretty great with the right technique. But so, yeah, we're not saying don't do it. We're not saying, oh yeah, let's just take intercourse off the table. Foreplay is the way to go for everyone. But I think that if we define Sex as the thing that brings us both a lot of pleasure and makes us feel satisfied with the experience. For most of us, that's going to be what brings us an orgasm. And so why not focus on or not even focus on? Why not include the activities that are most pleasurable for each partner? And that's not to say, okay, well, we can't do intercourse. It's like, no, you can do intercourse and you can do some kind of oral or manual stimulation. So just want to call that out for all the people that might be worried that we are somehow anti intercourse. We are absolutely not. Intercourse is great. And intercourse also, by the way, it can be combined with certain foreplay activities. There are ways where go back and forth. Yeah, you can go back and forth. You can use manual stimulation while you're having intercourse. There are lots of ways to incorporate foreplay activities into intercourse or alternate between the two. So that's a cohesive experience.

Vanessa Marin (8:14)

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Zander Marin (10:56)

All right, let's move on. How can I teach my partner about the importance of foreplay? He loves receiving it, but offering it rarely happens. This is a common one.

Vanessa Marin (11:06)

Okay, so to answer the first part of the question, rewind this episode about five minutes and play it out loud while your partner's nearby, or send it to them or ask them to listen to it with you. We really try to design so many of these episodes to be listened to together and open up conversations, get you guys talking about things in a way that maybe you haven't before. So I hope we've laid out a convincing enough argument for why foreplay is so important. But you know what? I'll also say foreplay is fun. Like, I think so often we have this way that we talk about foreplay in the media where it feels like a drag. Like, women are always wanting more foreplay. You gotta preheat the oven. Like, we talk about it in this really derogatory way, but, like, it's so fun and so pleasurable.

Zander Marin (11:54)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (11:54)

Like it should be exciting. Yeah.

Zander Marin (11:57)

Even if even for the person giving it, like, it's. It may not. It's not stimulating to you when you're giving it to your partner. But like just watching your partner when you know that you are doing it with good technique in a way, using techniques that your partner is going to respond very positively to, you know what the outcome is going to be. It's super hot watching it. Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (12:18)

Extremely.

Zander Marin (12:19)

But I think that that's the big disconnect here. And that can. I think that actually kind of can explain why this type of situation can come up. Is I. So I think the challenge is, is that most. Most men do not Feel confident or do not know offhand. Like, if I were to sit down with a guy and be like, hey, do you know, like, which two or three foreplay techniques, like with your hands or your mouth, are the absolutely most pleasurable for your partner? Or which are the three things that are gonna, like, bring her to orgasm? I bet you most guys would be like, honestly, if they were really being honest with me. Be like, you know what? I'm actually not. I'm not sure. Like, you know, I do X, Y and Z, but I. I don't really know. And I think that that's the main problem. And it's like, if I look back in my earlier sexual experiences, it all gets back to not. Not communicating between, you know, me not communicating with my partners. My partner's not communicating with me about what techniques are actually the most effective or the most pleasurable. I was never open with anyone, and no one was ever open with me about, like, you know, what is actually going to bring them to orgasm. It wasn't like, it was never discussed. And so I think that a lot of men, I think this, this is the experience I had, and I think a lot of men have. This is like, you are starting to become sexually active. You're, you know, doing your. Your fingering your partner. You're starting to give them oral sex, and you have this experience of, huh, okay, I've been, like, doing something for a while. I can't tell if it's working. I can't tell if they're having an orgasm. Especially when you're really young. Like, did they have an orgasm? I don't know. Okay. I feel like I've done this for five minutes. That's gotta be enough, right? My turn. So I think that we have this experience over and over and over when we are, you know, having, you know, early partners where we don't talk about it, we don't really know if what we're doing is working. And we have this experience of sitting there being like, huh, I'm doing something. I don't really know if it's working. I don't feel like I'm really good at this. But then the thing that we move on to afterwards, that's the thing where I'm getting the validation. Right. Whether it's true validation or fake validation, you pretty much quickly learn. Okay, yeah. Intercourse is like, that's where the magic happens, and that's where I really can contribute. And you're also getting validated by your own pleasure because you're like, oh, this feels good.

Vanessa Marin (14:42)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (14:43)

So. So I think that that's really the big problem is that most of us have had these experiences, a lot of experiences, of being like, I'm sitting here. I've been sitting here for a while. My hand's getting tired, My mouth is getting tired. And I don't know if it's working for my partner. And it's. Yeah, that's on all of us. It's not just on guys. It's also on women for not being open to being like, hey, actually, I really like this technique. And, you know, so it's. It's. We have. We both have equal responsibility for this. We gotta be able to talk about this stuff. So it's like, we gotta figure out how to accept. Okay, this is. I've had all these experiences. I understand you've had these experiences. And here we are now in our relationship. We know each other, we love each other. Like, let's just start talking about what is it that I really need.

Vanessa Marin (15:33)

I would say if you can't name with complete confidence the top three techniques that your partner really likes with foreplay, you should definitely. By our foreplay guides.

Zander Marin (15:43)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (15:44)

Okay. But I want to address the second part of this. It says he loves receiving it, but offering it. Rarely happens. So on the surface, obviously, that sounds like somebody who's being a little bit of a jerk or at least selfish. Like, oh, you're going to take it, but, like, never give it to me. But I want to. I want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. Because of a dynamic that I've heard about so often as women, we really struggle to receive foreplay and receive attention, time, energy during sex. And so a lot of us. And I was very guilty of doing this myself in my sex life for so long. Like, we'll tell our partner, like, oh, don't worry about me. We'll let him touch us for, like, 30 seconds. And it's like, okay, we can, you know, we can move on. You know, trying to move it along.

Zander Marin (16:30)

I've had that experience so many times, too.

Vanessa Marin (16:32)

Yeah. And I think so many men have had the experience of having a woman, you know, push their hand away or push their head away or say, like, okay, like, you can stop now. That I think a lot of men get it into their heads that, like, the nicer or better thing to do is to not, like, bother her with trying to focus on her.

Zander Marin (16:51)

Yeah. And then add in the dynamic I just talked about. So they have. Most guys have had a lot of those experiences. What you just described kind of Getting pushed away or told, no, no, no, like, let's move on. And they've also had the experience of. In the times when they've really wanted to give it or been excited about getting it, where they're like, oh, I don't know what's happening. I don't feel comfortable asking if this is okay or if there's a way it's better to do it. My partner's clearly not comfortable. This is just a weird situation. So of course, you come away from, like, a lifetime of that.

Vanessa Marin (17:21)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (17:21)

Being like, okay, cool. Well, it seems like it's better for me not to offer. And I think a lot of guys have the. I think at least inside they're thinking, well, if my partner really wanted it, they'd ask me.

Vanessa Marin (17:34)

Yeah. Yeah, right.

Zander Marin (17:35)

And who knows, in this case, if you have asked your partner a lot. If you've asked your partner a lot. Very clearly. Because I think also there is a dynamic between women and men. Often where women are asking in these very roundabout ways or implying and thinking they're being crystal clear and met is.

Vanessa Marin (17:51)

Completely over the guy's head.

Zander Marin (17:53)

And he'd be like, she's never asked me this. And, you know, and if I were to talk to her, she'd be like, oh, oh. I'm like, I'm making all these implications every single time. I'm like, but did you actually say, could you give me more oral? It never happened. So anyway, yeah, I think that it's gotta be made really clear. And if it has been made a very clear request multiple times and he still is avoiding it, that's a serious problem.

Vanessa Marin (18:22)

Yeah. Okay. But let me give you a couple little tricks in the moment to use if you're feeling a bit nervous about, like, opening up a big conversation or, you know, whatever you can say. So let's say the two of you are starting to make out or whatever you can say, like, hey, I want to go first tonight. You know, so make it feel like fun, playful and sexy. You don't have to.

Zander Marin (18:39)

You want to go first with the orgasm.

Vanessa Marin (18:41)

Yeah. Not even an orgasm, but just like, a little attention. Yeah. Or let's say you've just gone down on him for a while. Come back up and say, okay, my turn.

Zander Marin (18:51)

Yeah, that's good.

Vanessa Marin (18:52)

So just like, yeah, you don't need to come in hot. And of course, if he's, like, been a jerk about it, this is a separate situation. But if it's just one of those, like. Like, I don't really know why this isn't happening. You don't have to come in hot and heavy and be like, you never go down on me. What's going on with you? Make it a little fun and playful, like, okay, my turn.

Zander Marin (19:09)

I wanna call out one more fear that I think a lot of men have. And I definitely have fallen prey to this in the past. And I feel like in our relationship and even in the beginning of our relationship, this was something that came up for me. I feel like at this point in our relationship this is a solved problem. I have no hang ups about it, but I think most, most guys in long term relationships are not at that point. And so what that is is that I think that there's a hesitance to go to like to do non intercourse types of foreplay, things that are not mutually pleasurable. I think that men are hesitant to do that outside of the very beginning of sex because they're worried about losing interaction. Because the reality is, is that giving foreplay, whether it's, you know, fingering or oral, is super hot. And I will often, I will often get hard as I'm doing that to you because it's exciting. Oh, this is happening. But once I spend more than like a minute or two on that, then I lose the erection because I'm, I'm like. Because I mean, think about it, like you get stimulated. You can get stimulated from like not touching yourself and of just thinking about something. But like, you can't maintain that forever. You have. Most men need to have actual stimulation on the penis in order to maintain that erection. And so it's so easy to get in your head, be like, oh, well, I can't go down on her in the middle of sex because I'm gonna lose this erection. Or like, oh, she just went down on me for a while. I can't go down on her now because she got me hard and now I can't lose it. Now the thing that most people are missing is it's that it gets back to this idea of feeling like foreplay is too much. I fell prey to this where I'd be like, oh, well, she just went down on me. Now she wants me to go down on her, but then I'm gonna need her to go down on me again in order to get hard again. And I felt like I couldn't ask for that because it's like you're thinking, oh, foreplay is too much. It's gotta be this back and forth. And you know, I think that we, we talked about that many years into our relationship and we actually had to talk about it a lot. I needed to hear this from you a lot of like, hey, if you want me to touch you, if you want me to go down on you, like, I love doing that for you. And, like, just. Just ask. It's not. It's not like, oh, well, I did it to you and you did it to me. So now we're done with that. And I think that so many guys have this idea that it's like, you get the blow job once and that's it. And it's like, no, just have the conversation. Hey, I would love to have more foreplay with you. I'm finding myself feeling a little uncomfortable with the idea that I might lose my erection, and then I might need some more help from you to get it back. Because also, the reality. I just want to call out. I think that it can be. It can feel harder to get the erection the second time, which is a kind of weird. It's a weird experience. Like, it can be really easy. At first, you're like, boing, all right, Ready to go. And then after, you kind of lose it a bit, and then to get it again can feel a little bit harder. I think part of that, though, is because you're already in your head. You're like, oh, God, I lost the erection. Once you kind of let go of that, it does get a lot easier. But I think you gotta be like, hey, I'm a little nervous about this. And, you know, and I've realized I've felt nervous in the past asking for your help with some stimulation. How would you feel if I were to ask you to go down on me again for, like, a minute or two, or to use your hands to help me get back to where I want to be? And I think you'd be surprised. Your partner will probably be like, hell, yeah, I'm game for that. And then once you know that you can do that and ask for that at any time, then it's like, oh, like, the restrictions are off. Like, we. We can do whatever we want here. We're not limited by meeting hard. So I'm actually really curious to all of you listening. Like, have that conversation with your partner. Let us know how it goes. I'm really curious because I think that that can really open a lot of doors for you. All right, so I've been talking. We've been referencing a lot of, like, blow jobs, hand jobs, fingering, oral, so far when we've been talking about foreplay. But people are also asking, what are some kinds of foreplay that Aren't just blowjobs hand jobs.

Vanessa Marin (23:22)

Okay, I love this question because I think most of us have a way too narrow view of what foreplay actually is. So I like to think of foreplay as anything that gets us excited, turned on, wanting to connect with our partner and intimately. Yeah. And we think that foreplay for the next time starts the second that you stop having sex.

Zander Marin (23:46)

So basically, you just should always be having foreplay.

Vanessa Marin (23:48)

Yeah, you really should be.

Zander Marin (23:50)

All day. Foreplay, baby.

Vanessa Marin (23:51)

Okay, so one key thing, one key way to have foreplay with your partner. Literally, just be nice to them.

Zander Marin (23:58)

Oh, that's so nice.

Vanessa Marin (23:59)

I know that sounds ridiculous, but I think most people do not realize what a big deal this is.

Zander Marin (24:05)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (24:06)

Because we have to be real. If you put a little hidden camera on your average couple and watch how they interact with each other through a given day, don't worry, we turn the.

Zander Marin (24:15)

Camera off when you have sex.

Vanessa Marin (24:18)

Like, we're not super nice to each other. It's just so easy. Even though this is the person you love the most in the world, it's so easy to be snippy, irritable, frustrated. I mean, we've been irritated at each other multiple times today, and it is 3 o'.

Zander Marin (24:33)

Clock.

Vanessa Marin (24:35)

Like, that's just life. But when we make that effort to be thoughtful about how we treat each other and just be kind to each other, it makes a huge difference. I mean, we hear from people all the time who are like, my partner's just kind of a jerk to me. And, yeah, of course I don't want to have sex with them. So literally, just be nice.

Zander Marin (24:54)

That's. That's a low bar. We're starting with a pretty low bar. Great.

Vanessa Marin (24:57)

Okay. Chore play is another one that we love talking about. So chore play. If you haven't heard that phrase, it's like doing chores, but in a way that's like, playful and kind of hamming it up a little bit, you know.

Zander Marin (25:11)

Like being a little sexy.

Vanessa Marin (25:12)

A little sexy as you wipe down the counter, you know, get the vacuum cleaner going. And I mean, I think what's really behind that is for so many of us, we like feeling. And women especially, like, we really only hear about women being turned on by chore play. I don't think you've ever really heard about a man being into it unless.

Zander Marin (25:30)

There'S sort of like a maid fantasy.

Vanessa Marin (25:31)

Ooh, sexy maid.

Zander Marin (25:33)

But that's a whole different fantasy.

Vanessa Marin (25:35)

So for women, we want to feel like we have a partner in life. And so many of us feel like we often feel like our partner is yet another creature that we need to take care of and is not contributing to, like, daily, you know, day to day life and household stuff, but not.

Zander Marin (25:52)

In an equitable way.

Vanessa Marin (25:54)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (25:54)

So.

Vanessa Marin (25:55)

But it's this sense of, oh, my partner's just participating in the shitty parts of being an adult. Like, everybody hates doing chores. Nobody gets excited about them. So it's like seeing your partner. It's like, okay, my partner notices that things need to be done. They're taking the initiative to just do it. They're doing it themselves rather than telling me that it needs to be done. And for me, you and I have a very equitable relationship. So I don't get turned on by chore play in the sense of like, oh, finally he's being a real adult. Like, I like that you get goofy with it. We both do, you know, kind of like hamming it up and like, oh, look what I'm doing kind of thing. Like, it's become this, like, playful little joke between the two of us, and I think that's fun. Like, for me, us being silly and playful with each other feels like foreplay.

Zander Marin (26:42)

Yeah. I think that chore play is one that you really do need to discuss in advance. Is this something that you think could be fun or exciting for you? Because we do also hear from a lot of people being like, like, oh, the idea of chore play doesn't sound good to me. It sounds like I'm basically supposed to just like, reward my partner with sex for something that they should already be doing. If you were in a dynamic like that, then, no, chore play is not the answer. The answer is figuring out your mental load situation. But. But yeah, you might also be someone that goes, oh, yeah, no, that actually would feel sexy to me. If my partner, you know, did some things and kind of showed off when they're doing it, then. Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, I do want to be. I want to call out that potential dynamic. This is not like, oh, guys, the cheat code to getting sex with your wife is like washing the dishes.

Vanessa Marin (27:33)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (27:33)

Because that. That, you know, that that's a. That that's a problematic dynamic. If it's just like, oh, yeah, I do this thing and then I expect to get this outcome. So, yeah, talk about it. If it's something that sounds fun and exciting to you guys, then game on. If it's not, then you probably have some other things to look at in your relationship first.

Vanessa Marin (27:52)

Okay. Other kinds of foreplay, massage, sensual touch, sensory play, dirty talk, a little dirty or flirty talk, reading, listening to or watching erotica and using toys like those all count as foreplay. There are other options too. But yeah, that's a nice little list for you. And we have detailed instructions for so many of these. Within detail, our couples membership.

Zander Marin (28:18)

You should get in there.

Vanessa Marin (28:19)

We'll tell you. That's what she said.

Zander Marin (28:21)

Whoa.

Vanessa Marin (28:23)

You a little bit more about that later or you can go straight to vmtherapy.com deeper to check that out. All right, time to tell you about one of our favorite podcast sponsors, Cozy Earth. They recently came out with this incredible bubble cuddle blanket. They sent us some to try out. I decided to give one to my parents and I cannot tell you how cute it was to see how excited they got. This blanket is so soft. It's faux fur, like incredibly soft, very cuddly and cozy. They are obsessed with it. They're kind of fighting over who gets it right now. But we just love everything Cozy Earth makes. Their bamboo sheets, their towels, their clothing, like everything has been an absolute home run and we know you are going to love it. Cozy Earth also has a hundred night sleep trial and 10 year warranty. Head to cozyearth.com and use our code pillow talk for 40% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here on Pillow Talks. Because your bed should be more than a place to sleep. It should be your happy place. Cozy Earth makes that possible. I'm in a season of life right now where I've had some really tough reminders of how important it is for us to see the doctor. Truly, there is nothing more valuable in life than our health and I really want to encourage everyone listening to take your health so seriously. It's all we got. So that is one of the reasons why I'm really passionate about sharing about ZocDoc, which is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We know how challenging it can be to find a doctor in a time of need and how much that can.

Zander Marin (30:26)

Prevent you from wanting to see the doctor.

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Zander Marin (30:59)

Okay, I want more foreplay. My partner wants less. How do we Find the balance.

Vanessa Marin (31:06)

So I think that foreplay should be determined by the receiver. I think, yeah, if you're like, I want my partner to finger me for, like, 10 minutes, you should get to decide that versus your partner saying, like, oh, well, I only took five minutes, so I'm only going to give you five minutes. So I think it should be determined by the receiver.

Zander Marin (31:28)

Yeah, I'm kind of curious of how to have more context on this question. Like, yeah, when you say, my partner wants less, are you saying my partner wants to give me less foreplay? Or my partner like. Or is it that you're suggesting, oh, wouldn't it be hot if we spent like 15, you know, we spent. You spent a while on me than I spent a while on you? And he's like, I don't really want you to spend that much time on me. Like, I'd rather do something else. I'm curious if it's that. I would suspect it's probably, unfortunately the former case where it's like, he's like, oh, I like, I don't want to go down on you for 10 minutes. I mean, I just don't think you.

Vanessa Marin (32:12)

Get to choose that. Like, again. Okay, so first of all, it goes back to understanding the importance of foreplay, that this is not just, like, a nice to have thing, especially for women. This is essential for us. This is sex for us. So, yeah, you get to decide for yourself if you're like, you know, I don't really need foreplay. Intercourse is my favorite thing. Or like, I like it when my partner gives me, like, a little, you know, 30 seconds of rub a dub. I don't know why that came up.

Zander Marin (32:38)

Wow, this is very unlike you to. To say something so crude like that. That's like a. You icked yourself on that one.

Vanessa Marin (32:46)

I did. I, like, I got the ick before it even came out of my mouth.

Zander Marin (32:50)

But I couldn't stop myself from saying in the bottle.

Vanessa Marin (32:53)

Yeah, it just came out. Okay, so if you're like, I want my partner. Yeah, just like a little 30 second. What's the other phrase? Like, little tug, pull, tug. There's like some sort of tug. Little tug and pull action.

Zander Marin (33:05)

Sure. I mean, are we talking about him like a man fingering a woman?

Vanessa Marin (33:10)

No, I'm saying, like, he could say, yeah, like, just, you know, put your hand on me for like, 30 seconds. That's all I need. You can say that you get to determine how much foreplay you want on your own body. But if your partner is saying, hey, I need a little More time for foreplay. I want a little more time on foreplay. I love when you spend more time going down on me. Like, yes, we all get to have our own boundaries. Obviously, I'm not telling people to do something that doesn't feel safe to them. But again, I feel like the rule should be the person receiving it gets to dictate how much time they want spent on that.

Zander Marin (33:41)

Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately. I mean, this is where we start to get into challenging territory. But, like, I think that ultimately your sex life is a very, very, very important part of your relationship. If you are not happy with your sex life, your relationship is generally, for most people, not going to work long term. One person eventually is going to get fed up with that. And so I think that. I think, unfortunately, most of us are not willing to ask ourselves those tough questions about, you know, am I satisfied with the sex life? Is this. Am I okay with this sex life that I have? Can I accept the. The situation with our sex life? And, and. And they're not really willing to look at that in the immediate term. And they're kind of. They'll punt and punt and punt until eventually it reaches the boiling point and then, like, everything blows up. But I think, like, yeah, you have to ask yourself, okay, my partner is wanting more oral sex. They're wanting more fingering. You know, I don't feel comfortable giving for that long. I don't enjoy doing that. You have to ask yourself, okay, so this is the sex life that we need to have in order for my partner to actually enjoy it, you know, in a similar way to me, I have to be able to be like, yeah, you know what? Like, I'm like, I'm willing to do that. I'm. Hopefully you're more than just willing. Like, I'm excited to do this for my partner. But, like, if you're truly not excited, you truly, really don't want that, and you just want it to be. Be on your terms in the way that you want it. I mean, ultimately, I do think you have to be like, I don't think that I can live with this type of arrangement. Like, this, this relationship isn't for me. Like, do yourself and do your partner a favor earlier rather than later and be like, yeah, no, I'd rather be with a partner that doesn't really care about themselves and just cares more about me. Which, I mean, I think that if you actually put it in those terms, you'd probably realize, realize, oh, yeah, maybe I need to look at this differently. But I Would say to the guys out there who are concerned that their. What their partner is really asking for is like, 20 minutes of oral sex. Yeah. If you were to just do 20 minutes of oral sex with the technique that you currently know today, in the position that you currently do it in today, that might not be tenable. And it's like, you gotta. You gotta be open to, like, all right, maybe we together need to work on some new stuff. Maybe I need to go out and buy these guys foreplay guides and figure out what are some better positions that are going to be more comfortable for me. What are some different techniques that are going to be the most pleasurable for my partner? Because the reality is, I promise you, your partner doesn't just want 20 minutes of oral sex. They want the amount of oral sex that they think is going to get them close to orgasm or to orgasm. And I promise you, with the right technique and the right stuff in place, you can get that time down and down and down. So rather than focusing on, oh, my God, they want me to spend so much time on them, Reframe that to, oh, my God, they want to feel a lot of pleasure. They want to feel the same amount of pleasure that I can. How can we really boost the pleasure? How can we get better and better and better at this activity so that it is better for all of us? And how do we make that happen even quicker? Because that's really going to be the shortcut to actually you having more of the type of sex that you are wanting now is, like, getting to a point where you can get them way higher up on the pleasure scale quicker and then be able to, like, you know, get your own, you know, your own genitals involved, too. So, yeah, I would set aside the idea of balance in the first place. Like, balance. You maybe you could focus on balance long term, but, yeah, balance implies that it's like, oh, it's five minutes. Five minutes. Think about balance of pleasure. Let's get the balance of pleasure right. And I promise you, the balance in terms of time that will change once you figure out the pleasure. Like, just focus on the pleasure. And also the way you feel about the balance of time, I promise, is going to change once you get that pleasure balanced. All right. I don't even know how to talk to my partner about the kinds of foreplay I would be interested in. How can I do that?

Vanessa Marin (37:55)

Start with this episode. Easy. Yeah. Go through this list that we went over together, and you can pause the episode after each one and talk about, like, yeah, would you like that? What? You know, what kind of, like, massage, for example, what kind of massage do you like? What part of your body do you like to be massaged? What? You know, how much pressure do you like all of that? But, yeah, use that list as a little conversation opener.

Zander Marin (38:17)

And, I mean, we mentioned it a couple of times, but for the more explicitly sexual parts of foreplay, literally, just grab our foreplay guides. Tell your partner, hey, I bought something really fun for us to just go through an experiment with. We literally lay out tons of techniques step by step for fingering, for oral sex, for hand jobs, for blow jobs. You could have, like, multiple. Multiple, like, 4, 8, 12 different date nights where you just do a couple activities each from that. That. And, like, you might be shocked at how many things you discover about, like, new ways that bring you more pleasure or ways things that are more comfortable or just giving you new ideas and feeling closer and more excited. Like, we have. Yeah, we have so many people that come to us with that story. Be like, okay, I've been putting it off. I bought your guide finally. And we just. Like, I just showed my partner, and we just started to go through it, and holy shit. So I think, honestly, that is the easiest way is let us bring you the ideas. All you have to do is try them. If you don't like them, blame us.

Vanessa Marin (39:25)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, Whether it's the foreplay guides or the podcast episode, like, I do think it's just nicer when you have something to kind of blame it on in a sense where you're not, you know, catching your partner out of nowhere, like, hello, it's time to talk about foreplay. Like, obviously, that can feel a little bit awkward, but when you have something like, hey, I was listening to this episode, and it brought up all sorts of interesting questions for me. I'd love to listen to it with you, or I'd love to ask you some stuff from it, or, you know, oh, my God, I found this, like, really fun thing online, and I think it'd be super sexy for us to go through it together. Like, it just feels easier to open a conversation when you're starting with something like that.

Zander Marin (40:03)

Oh, yeah. And then. And also when we give you all the techniques, you don't have to worry about if. About saying, oh, you know what? I didn't love that technique. That instead of being, like, possibly interpreted by your partner as, I don't like your technique, all you're saying is, oh, I actually didn't like that technique that Xander and Vanessa suggested. They said Said that not everyone would like all of these. The point of trying all of them is so that you find the ones that you really do like. They're telling me, try these 20 things. I'm going to love, you know, eight to 10 of them. So there's going to be like 10 to 12 that are like, meh. To. So. So to maybe even not good for me. That's normal and expected endorsement.

Vanessa Marin (40:42)

No, no, no.

Zander Marin (40:43)

It's more. You're going to like more than that, probably, but I'm just throwing random numbers out of my ass. Okay. How do I keep from falling into a foreplay routine? How do we keep it feeling different and exciting over time?

Vanessa Marin (40:57)

So I think expanding your repertoire of what counts as foreplay can really help. One fun thing that you could do here is like write down all these different types of foreplay. Like get really specific with it. Write them all down on little slips of paper and like put them in a jar and pull one at random and do that that night. That could be a fun way to play around with it. Or try to make little adjustments to the things that you already know you like and do. So, for example, maybe have foreplay in a different location. Maybe you start the foreplay in the kitchen or in the living room and then you move on to the bedroom or whatever it is. Or try a different position giving a blow job than you usually try. So just little tweaks can actually make a surprisingly big difference. We're all about the little tweaks, I think so often. Maybe we were talking about this in last week's episode too. Like, most of us hear the advice to try new things, keep it spicy. And we go to really big grandiose ideas in our head of like, oh my God, we have to be having threesomes or tying each other up and hanging from the rafters.

Zander Marin (42:02)

Yeah, like new is something has to be new to both of us. Something we've never even thought about, never tried to extreme.

Vanessa Marin (42:07)

And it doesn't. You would be shocked that how big of a difference just changing the position can be. So get creative, play around with it, but think about it as small tweaks rather than huge changes.

Zander Marin (42:22)

I think the interesting thing about falling into a routine with foreplay, I never really thought about it like this until I heard this question asked. Because we've been talking in this episode a lot about balancing pleasure with foreplay. I think that if you are in a situation where the pleasure balance or the pleasure is imbalanced or you're not getting a lot of. Of Pleasure out of intercourse. You're looking for more foreplay to get things in better balance. From that perspective, it's almost like, I don't want you with foreplay to be like, okay, every single time you got to try something new, blah, blah, blah. It's like, in a way, it's like, I actually do want you to find a routine that really works for you. And it's like at the beginning, you kind of want to get yourself into a foreplay routine. Okay, let's figure out what really works for us. Let's figure out how to, like, decrease the time to pleasure. Let's figure out how to get the balance as balanced as possible in terms of pleasure. And not, like, time has to be balanced, but let's try to. If one of us takes a lot longer, let's try to figure out how to get that person to take not quite as long. And so with that, you do need routine. You need to get honed in on what are the specific techniques. Let's really get into that routine so that it just feels like, I can do this. This whenever I feel confident. That's how you build the confidence.

Vanessa Marin (43:39)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (43:40)

But then as soon as you get there, then it's like, all right, now let's kind of, you know, let's kind of take the lid off.

Vanessa Marin (43:46)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (43:46)

And start trying some other things. Because you might be surprised when you start trying other things. Oh, all of a sudden these other things that maybe didn't work so well in the past might be more exciting now that you have that confidence, you have that baseline of, okay, I know how to. I know how to get there there. So, yeah, I think I want to be careful when we're talking about routine that people aren't thinking, oh, we're telling people they got to be trying something new every single time. Like, I want you to figure out your routine. Then I want you to start expanding the routine.

Vanessa Marin (44:15)

Yeah. If you're loving the podcast and wondering, okay, but how do I actually put this into practice in my relationship?

Zander Marin (44:26)

Well, then you're definitely going to want to check out our membership deeper. It is, hands down, the best and the most affordable way to take your relationship from good to great.

Vanessa Marin (44:37)

Inside, we guide you through our five keys to everyday. Intimacy, Communication, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration.

Zander Marin (44:46)

And we give you the expert tools you need to strengthen each one. And on top of that, you'll also get access to our core library of courses and guides, like the Ultimate Foreplay Guides, the Ultimate Sex Guide, Art of Initiation, and so, so much more.

Vanessa Marin (45:00)

Plus, we drop Two brand new date ideas every month you get daily. Would you rather prompts monthly live calls with us and fun intimacy challenges to keep your momentum going.

Zander Marin (45:10)

And oh yeah, Vanessa AI is there too. Your personal on demand sex and relationship coach that is trained on everything, literally everything that we've ever created. So ask her anything and get instant expert backed answers.

Vanessa Marin (45:24)

So if you're ready to communicate better, feel more connected and turn up the heat on your sex life life, head.

Zander Marin (45:30)

Over to VM therapy.com deeper and use code pillow for 25% off your first month. Just for pillow talks listeners. All right, next up, what do we do when one partner loves a certain part of foreplay that you absolutely hate? Can there be a middle ground? I have a feeling I know what they're talking about.

Vanessa Marin (45:53)

What do you think they're talking about?

Zander Marin (45:54)

Blow jobs probably.

Vanessa Marin (45:57)

Okay, this is a really tricky question, so I want to try to address it with nuance. I want to start by saying we all get to have our own boundaries in the bedroom. We all are different people, we all have different experiences, and for certain people, certain acts just don't feel safe or comfortable. A lot of times this can have to do with negative experiences in the past, even experiences with abuse or boundary violations in the past. So I want to make sure I'm super clear about that. We all get to have our own boundaries. If there's something that really doesn't feel good to you, really doesn't feel safe to you, don't force yourself to do it. I definitely would encourage you to get some therapy around it and to explore it, especially if it was something where maybe it was the result of sexual abuse or something like that. You deserve to have the full menu of options open to you and not feel closed down because of past negative experiences. And I'll give a quick shout out that we have a totally free guide that we offer a course that we offer to survivors of sexual abuse to female survivors. It was made for female survivors. People of any gender can find the tips useful, but I just need to make sure that I'm clear in saying that the original intention was that it speaks to women. But if you go to vmtherapy.com free you will find it there. So that talks about how to reclaim your sex life and how to feel safe and comfortable with acts that feel like they've been taken from you. Okay, so there's that aspect of it. Then we have the trickier scenario where it's like I just don't like giving.

Zander Marin (47:34)

Them sort of preference based yeah, it's.

Vanessa Marin (47:36)

Not that it doesn't feel safe or uncomfortable. Like, I just don't like it. One thing that we have found to be very true is that people often say that they don't like performing a certain act because they don't feel confident in their technique. And blow jobs are a key example of where that comes up. And it makes a lot of sense. Like, who would want to do something that you don't feel like you're very good at? Right. So learning technique, learning proper technique, and especially with blow jobs. Oh, my God. The way that most people are doing blow. Most women. I'll say most women are doing blow jobs, is not it. And I totally understand why so many women hate giving them. So some of this might be opening yourself up to learning some technique.

Zander Marin (48:22)

I'm also curious, though, what your perspective on this is, though. I think that societally, we do have a bit of a. We do have a bit of a language that we use that can make blow jobs feel kind of derogatory towards women.

Vanessa Marin (48:42)

Yeah, I think a lot of women think of them as a demeaning experience.

Zander Marin (48:46)

Oh, yeah, I meant. I said derogatory. I meant demeaning.

Vanessa Marin (48:48)

Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I do think that is true, unfortunately, because I think that there's so much power behind giving a blow job. When you feel confident in your technique, when you feel good about what you're doing, there is so much power to be felt. Like there is truly nothing like pleasuring a man and knowing you have all the power in the world over him in that moment. Like, it's really enjoyable, really exciting, and I think it's very empowering. So I'm bummed that so many people have this view of blowjobs being demeaning. It's, again, because you're doing it all wrong. When we do it the right way, it's actually an incredibly empowering experience.

Zander Marin (49:32)

Yeah, I really do think it gets back to that technique piece. So, so, so much. Because I think that, yes, the way that we mostly see blowjobs performed in porn, the technique used like that often, the technique itself feels pretty demeaning. And then also the way it is portrayed is often pretty demeaning. And so I can totally see when your idea of what a blow job is is. This is a very specific technique. I'm talking about deep throating. And then the way it's portrayed is really demeaning. And then there's also, like, people, you know, talking about, especially, like, in your teenage years. I think there's a lot of talk about like trying to get blow jobs and stuff. Like, oh, we gotta get blow jobs from these women that don't want to give them. Like, of course it ends up feeling like this demeaning thing. Plus, on top of that, then there's this whole dynamic of, oh, well, then men don't want to go down on you, so it's like they want something from you that they're not willing. Going to. To give to you. Of course it ends up feeling demeaning that way. But yeah, if you follow some of the techniques that we have in our foreplay guides, you will see it's not all about deep throating. In fact, you probably never need to deep throat a penis. Never, ever, ever to give the same experience. You. You don't need to make yourself gag. So many people ask about that. Like, yeah, if you are having a gag reflex come up. Giving a blow job like you are doing it wrong. There are ways to do it and deliver a great experience that feels like you're putting the whole thing in your mouth. With you barely putting much of it into your mouth.

Vanessa Marin (51:14)

You know, the way that you're speaking about it, it really sounds like you're the one giving the blowjob.

Zander Marin (51:20)

I'm not. I mean, I'm just.

Vanessa Marin (51:23)

You've never given a blowjob in your life. But you're like the technique, when you get it right, you're never gonna be gagging girl. I mean, there are guides you're talking about. You have no clue.

Zander Marin (51:33)

I do know. I'm talking about there are fucking foreplay guides, girl. It's our best selling product. Of course I know our product.

Vanessa Marin (51:41)

You have no personal experience with it.

Zander Marin (51:44)

I don't. I don't.

Vanessa Marin (51:46)

But you're right, that is what I would say. Instead of your gagging, should we, like.

Zander Marin (51:52)

Make me do it on a. On a banana sometime or something like that? Like that?

Vanessa Marin (51:55)

I mean, honestly, you probably should. Just so you know what it's like.

Zander Marin (51:58)

God, yeah. I'd be like, oh, my God, my tech, my coordination.

Vanessa Marin (52:02)

We should have you. We should have you, like, review the blowjob section of the foreplay, guys.

Zander Marin (52:08)

Oh, my God. That would be like. That would be incredible social media content, though. Instagram is being so annoying. There's no way. It was like, we need to. Yeah, I don't know, we gotta like, do that in, in our deeper membership or something. Like all. All the content. All the content. You really want that? Instagram All About Sand.

Vanessa Marin (52:27)

You're giving a BJ to a banana.

Zander Marin (52:32)

I mean, if that'll get you. If that'll get you the listener to invest in your relationship, then, hey, I'm game.

Vanessa Marin (52:39)

God. Wow.

Zander Marin (52:41)

I guess I am game. I mean, it's a small price to pay. I know how much of a difference it will make. You know, I. People don't. People are very hesitant to invest in their relationship. I know what it does for you. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. My banana where my mouth is.

Vanessa Marin (52:57)

You're willing to put your mouth where your mouth is?

Zander Marin (53:00)

Now I'm willing to put my banana where my mouth is.

Vanessa Marin (53:04)

All right, you heard it here first. If you sign up for deeper Sander will deep throat a banana. Okay. Okay. There was one other thing I wanted to say about this question, but I totally have lost my train of thought now. You hate it. Okay, let me just finally address the scenario of like, let's just say you're just like, no, guys, I don't care. I just, no matter what, I'm not giving a blowjob. I absolutely refuse. Like, that is your prerogative. You're allowed to say that if you want to. But I would come at it from the perspective of recognizing like that oral sex is a pretty standard sexual act. It's not something that's like really, you know, wildly out there or uncommon, out of the ordinary. And I think it's not fair to expect oral sex in return if you're not willing to do it if you have a partner where your partner's like, hey, I don't care. I don't really want to receive it, but I love giving it. Sure, whatever. But in a. Yeah, other than that, I don't think it's really fair to say I'm not going to do it, but I want you to do it to me.

Zander Marin (54:12)

And then I think beyond that, that is even the, you know, you have to be willing to accept that that might be a non negotiable for your partner and that, you know, you could be putting your relationship at risk because that does kind of modify the terms or the expected or understood terms of, of your sex life. So I think it's just sort of a, an eyes wide open, like go into this eyes wide open type of thing. I think a lot of us think, oh, yeah, well, maybe can I just sort of get away with this? And it's like, no. Like, let's. We gotta be honest about. Is one of the top three reasons that people get divorces. Like, it is breakup. Yeah, breakup or divorce. Like, it is a, it is a key element of a Relationship that is beyond friends and. Yeah. And there's. Yeah. If. If it is not being fulfilling to both partners, like there's. Most partners eventually are going to be fed up with that and leave. So just gonna, you know, not trying to scare anyone, but just, you know, putting it out there. We gotta give sex the respect that it deserves. I think we often, because we don't talk about it, we can kind of devalue it until it really becomes a problem. But I think we'd be so much better off. It's just from the beginning, we were like, hey, this is a really important part of our relationships. We gotta make sure we're compatible here. Rather than expecting that we will be compatible without talking about it or without actually doing all of the things that need to be done in to evaluate it. All right, let's move on. My rant is over. Is it okay to not really be into foreplay as a woman? It's so hyped up, but I don't really enjoy it. What am I missing?

Vanessa Marin (55:54)

Okay, so this could be a technique issue, you know, where you just haven't found the exact techniques that work on your body. So I would encourage you to explore techniques, try different things. See if there are certain things that you like more than others. I would also encourage you to explore, like, are there any sort things of. Of psychological or emotional blockages that come up for you? Like, do you get self conscious? Like, oh, my God, my partner's been down there for so long. Like, I feel really bad. Are you pushing your partner away or telling them to stop? Are you putting up with your partner, maybe doing some techniques that you really don't like because you're too embarrassed to, like, give them feedback? Are you embarrassed of your genitals? Like, oh, my God, I'm worried my partner thinks I smell bad or it looks weird, it tastes bad. So let's say you've explored all of that though. You're like, yeah, no, I've tried a ton of techniques. I really don't think there are any mental or emotional blockages in my way. It's totally fine if there are certain sexual acts that you just don't enjoy. So I talk often about the fact that I don't love receiving oral sex.

Zander Marin (57:02)

And believe me, we tried all the techniques in the foreplay guides. I know them all.

Vanessa Marin (57:06)

It's truly not a technique issue. And it's not like I dislike it, but for me, it's just not. It doesn't create. Like, I enjoy hands so much more because hands can create more Stimulation, more sensation. And I even feel for you, for you, for my unique body. And I even feel more sensation from intercourse than I do from oral sex just on its own. So that's normal. That's okay. Like, just because. And especially with oral sex, I think a lot of times you hear women talk about oral sex as, like, the be all, end all. Like, oh, my God, it's the best.

Zander Marin (57:38)

Well, because it is for many women.

Vanessa Marin (57:40)

Yeah, it is for many.

Zander Marin (57:41)

But that doesn't mean that something is wrong with you. You're not one of them.

Vanessa Marin (57:44)

Exactly.

Zander Marin (57:44)

Just like, you know, a small percentage of women can orgasm from intercourse alone and maybe even think that that is the best activity for them. They happen to be a very loud minority. But, yeah, just because that's not you doesn't mean that something is wrong with you.

Vanessa Marin (57:59)

Yeah. So it's okay if there are, you know, certain sexual acts that you don't like. The fact that though this person says, I'm not into foreplay as a whole.

Zander Marin (58:08)

I'm curious about that.

Vanessa Marin (58:10)

Like, what do you think of as foreplay?

Zander Marin (58:12)

I mean, I read this. I read this initially, if I was talking to this person right here, I would be like, hold. Like, let's clarify, because my suspicion is. What you mean is, I'm not into oral. But, yeah, I would be curious if you're like, I'm not into oral. I'm not into fingers. Like, none of it brings me pleasure. I would be. I would want to dig into that a little and be like, so, well, what does bring you pleasure? Does anything bring you pleasure? Is intercourse actually, like, better than all those things? I find that hard to believe. I don't know. I would want to know more because it sounds to me, if you're telling me every single thing is not that enjoyable, then I'd be like, it sounds like there might be some other kind of blockages going on.

Vanessa Marin (58:51)

Yeah. All right, well, I hope we have convinced you that foreplay is so much more than just 30 to 60 seconds of rub. A dub, tug, lug right before intercourse.

Zander Marin (59:04)

Hopefully no lugging.

Vanessa Marin (59:06)

It is an experience in and of itself. Foreplay can deepen intimacy, build anticipation, make everything feel so much more connected and satisfying, and just be pleasurable in and of itself. And remember, it doesn't even have to start in the bedroom. Foreplay for the next time starts second that you're done. And those flirty texts, those playful touches, simply being emotionally present and nice to each other.

Zander Marin (59:33)

Yeah, just be nice.

Vanessa Marin (59:35)

Those things all count, too. All right, thanks so much for listening. We drop new episodes every Thursday, so be sure to subscribe and tune in next week.