Vanessa Marin (1:40)

Like, yeah, we went way back in the archives. But the majority of people I know are, you know, you kind of start here and now and you listen to.

Podcast Host (1:47)

The episodes going forward.

Vanessa Marin (1:48)

So there are so many great episodes that people have never had a chance to really listen to. So we decided every now and again we pull one out of the archives, reshare it so you get a chance.

Podcast Host (2:00)

To hear that great episode.

Vanessa Marin (2:03)

And even if you did listen to this episode, even if you're like a Dick Day 1 Pillow Talks listener, which, by the way, thank you very much. Even if you are, I find personally I list, I re listen to episodes because I always learn something new the second time around. Like I think most of us, we.

Podcast Host (2:20)

Listen to podcasts when we're doing other.

Vanessa Marin (2:21)

Stuff, so we're not fully paying attention anyways.

Xander Marin (2:24)

Or you hear it just through the lens of what's happening in your life right at that moment. Right? So you listen to an episode one or two years ago and it has a certain impact on you. Maybe it motivates you to make a couple adjustments in your relationship and hopefully adjustments that worked out for the best for you. Right. But it's interesting. Okay, what does it sound like now? When I listen to it, where I'm at now, Do I resonate with something different? Is there something else coming up that I'm like, oh, yeah, there's another step that I wasn't thinking of back then because I was so focused on X, Y, Z. Now it's abc. That might make a big difference for me.

Vanessa Marin (3:00)

So today's episode focuses on one of our absolute favorite topics to talk about initiation. Because I think we both think that.

Podcast Host (3:09)

Most couples, and we were very guilty of this ourselves for a long time.

Vanessa Marin (3:13)

Most couples are doing initiation totally wrong. And we're thinking of it. Like, when you think of initiation, you think of literally just those few seconds of like, hey, do you want to do it?

Podcast Host (3:23)

Like, that happened right before sex, presumably.

Vanessa Marin (3:26)

And you're kind of like, yes or no, Are we doing this or not? But really, it's so much more than that. There's so much to understand about yourself, about your partner, the ways that you each like to be initiated, the circumstances that have to be in place in order for initiation to happen, how to do initiation more successfully, more interestingly. And we think that if you can get initiation right, it sets you up to get everything else right too. Like, when you do good initiation, the sex itself is so much better. It's more connected, it's more enjoyable.

Xander Marin (4:03)

You feel more satisfied with your sex life in general.

Podcast Host (4:06)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (4:06)

Because I think so many of us think of initiation as a shot in the dark. Like, it's. It's kind of this big, high pressure, super vulnerable thing that in most relationships, only one partner is doing, or only one partner is doing it the vast majority of the time. And there's probably some feelings about that. There might be some resentment around that. And it feels like this big, high stakes thing. And it doesn't have to be that way. If we just understand a little bit more about what I like, what my partner likes, how we can meld our approaches, or how we can play to each other so that we're doing it in a way that we are, Max, where we are maximizing our chances of getting a yes. Because, like, initiation, it shouldn't be a shot in the dark. It shouldn't be this scary thing. Oh, my God, what if they say no? Like, if you do it right in the way that we recommend that you do it, I'm not telling you that your partner's gonna Say yes a hundred percent of the time, but you are going to maximize your your chances. You are going to know when is a good time or a bad time. You are going to know how likely it is that your partner is going to say yes. And you're going to know a hundred percent, with a hundred percent confidence that you're doing it in a way that your partner generally responds positively to. Like that right there is a huge win.

Vanessa Marin (5:19)

So in this episode, you're going to learn what so many of us are getting wrong about initiation. Some simple ways to fix it. Very practical tools and techniques that you can put to use immediately. But we also wanted to share with you that if you are ready to like really deep dive into initiation and.

Podcast Host (5:36)

Figure out exactly how to get it.

Vanessa Marin (5:39)

To really, really work in your relationship, we are doing something incredibly special that we have never done before. So we have a course called the Art of Initiation.

Xander Marin (5:50)

Cause it's an art.

Podcast Host (5:51)

Yeah, it really is.

Vanessa Marin (5:52)

And we truly like deep dive into all these different dynamics. And we are offering it for 40 frickin bucks. We have never offered it for that low before, ever.

Xander Marin (6:05)

Yeah, it's usually $89, so that' more than 50% off.

Vanessa Marin (6:09)

So if you want to take advantage of that incredible deal, it's just happening for a very short period of time, head right on over to vmtherapy.com initiation and use code flash40 at checkout to get the deal. So again, that's vmtherapy.com initiation and Use Code flash40 to get the art of initiation for just 40 bucks. And we'll put that link in the show notes too. All right, let's get into the episode.

Podcast Host (6:40)

Okay, so let's get into it. At the end of the day, we came up with 11 reasons why your partner might be annoyed or frustrated or just not open to it when you initiate sex. We had to stop at 11. I think I would have kept going. I've got some more in me.

Xander Marin (6:59)

Or just like 11 reasons why one might feel annoyed during sex and what we can do to start dissipating that annoyance, perhaps changing both of our behaviors so that initiation can be more fun and exciting and less annoying.

Podcast Host (7:14)

Yes. So we want to give a quick little disclaimer here. Inclusivity is really important to us and we try not to be gendered in our content. We just want to note that the vast majority of the responses that we got were from women complaining about their male partners. So you may hear us use some gender language in it because of those dynamics. But we do just want to call out, like, these dynamics can come up for people of any gender, any orientation.

Xander Marin (7:43)

So and part of the reason for that is that the vast majority of people who follow us on Instagram are women. So if you are a man listening to this or if you have a partner who is a man listening to this, get your partner to follow us on Instagram because we love hearing from you, we love getting your feedback and having as balanced of a perspective as possible. But one other thing I will say about this is that, you know, looking back in our relationship history, I can definitely see some times where I have been annoyed when you have initiated sex. And so I definitely can talk about, you know, stuff that has come up for me or, you know, some of these that I particularly relate with and give a bit of my perspective too.

Vanessa Marin (8:29)

Xander and I are always looking for fresh, new ways to focus on our health and wellness. And so when Cowboy Colostrum reached out and asked if we'd be willing to try out their product, we were so excited to give it a try. So Colostrum, if you've never heard of it, it's often called liquid gold. It's the first nutrition that we get at birth. Absolutely. Packed with immune factors, growth compounds, and the nutrients that your body still craves today. So we gave it a try. The flavor is really good. We got three different flavors. Xander's been loving, loving the. What was the strawberry?

Xander Marin (9:02)

Strawberry. It tastes like strawberry milk. Delicious.

Vanessa Marin (9:04)

Yeah. And we love that Cowboy Colostrum uses only the highest quality Colostrum. Whole first day milking, never stripped or over processed, and always ethically harvested. And for a limited time, our listeners can get 25% off their entire order. Just head to cowboycolostrum.com and use code PILLOW at checkout. That's 25% off. When you use code PILLOW@cowboycolostrum.com after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support the show and tell them that we sent you. So a lot of us have our skincare routines locked down, but we are ignoring something very crucial, our necks. So many of us literally just focus on our faces, but our necks are actually one of the first places where we really see those visible signs of aging. So that's why we're so excited to tell you about Gopure Beauty's Tighten and lift neck cream. It's packed with clinically proven ingredients that visibly firm, smooth, and rejuvenate the skin on your neck and chest in as little as four to eight weeks. The skin on Your neck, it really is different from the skin on your face. So it has special needs and that's why this cream is so perfect for it. All of Gopure's products are cruelty free, paraben free and sulfate free. So you know you're giving your skin clean, effective care without harsh chemicals or compromises. With over 1 million jars sold, this beauty secret is no longer a secret. For a limited time, our listeners get 25% off GoPure with Code Pillow at checkout. Just head to GoPure.com and use code Pillow and you're all set. And after you buy, do us a favor. When they ask where you heard about Gopure, tell them that it was from our show.

Podcast Host (10:52)

Okay, so let's jump right into it with number one, these aren't in any particular order, but I will say this was one of the most common responses that came up. So this is your partner got annoyed or frustrated because of the way that you initiated. One quote that we got from Instagram was any sort of boob, butt or genital groping to initiate. In fact, 76% of our audience say that they get annoyed when their partner initiates by just being grabby like that. It's a huge source of frustration. And I think that goes back to that quote that I read at the beginning. You know, in the intro of this episode. It, it for some people can lead to this feeling of like you're just seeing me as a sexual object or a way of like, of gratifying your sexual rather than a human being. Like you're just grabbing at my boobs out of nowhere, grabbing straight for my genitals out of nowhere. I think it's a jarring experience, especially for a lot of women. Somebody else wrote in and said he never snuggles or wants to be intimate with me unless he wants sex. So as soon as he starts, I know that's what he wants. And a similar one, somebody else said he does it the same way every time. A massage that gets sexy at the end and makes me not enjoy the massage because I know what's coming every time. So there's this sense of like my partner's only reaching out to me because they want something for me.

Xander Marin (12:20)

So yeah, non sexual touch people. Non sexual touch is a very important part of a relationship and it's, you know, I can understand. It's easy to get into a place where you're touch starved and then, you know, if you're touch starved, you're not having non sexual touch. And you're also not Having a lot of sex. And so eventually you're feeling like, oh, well, I just like really want some sex. But it's like, you gotta delay that a bit and work the non sexual touch back into the relationship. It's so important. It creates so many problems when you don't have enough of it.

Podcast Host (12:56)

Yeah. And I think even when you are having sexual touch, to don't immediately go for the genitals and, you know, for the breasts and the butt and stuff like that. It's like, there may be some people that like that. And again, this is where this is.

Xander Marin (13:10)

Some people do.

Podcast Host (13:10)

This is the area where like, this is so great to listen to with your partner. And you can pause and say, hey, are you part of that 76% who doesn't like this or are you part of the 24% that does like this or is neutral to this? So grabby touch is just one example of not liking the way that your partner initiates. There are a million different reasons why you might not like your partner's particular technique. So if you're somebody who gets annoyed when your partner initiates, it is important for you to recognize you have to coach your partner for your partner. They're probably initiating in this way because they think it's sexy or like, they would love it if you initiated with them this way. And so they might just not understand that that's not what turns you on.

Xander Marin (13:53)

Yeah, I think so many of these things come down to the challenge of, like, it's so easy for us to see the world through our own eyes or assume that everybody sees the world the same way that we do. And so much of this is just realizing, okay, this may be what I like. That doesn't mean that's what my partner likes. Or this may be how things work for me, but it's not how things necessarily work for my partner.

Podcast Host (14:19)

Yeah, I mean, this is why we created the initiation styles model, kind of similar to the love languages of recognizing. Like, what are our unique ways of enjoying initiation or of initiating and recognizing? They are probably not the same as our partners. So you've got to coach your partner. And that means you need to take some time to think about, like, what are the ways of initiating that would excite you, that would feel good to you? So someone on Instagram said, the best way for me to get in the mood is when my partner helps me get things done that are on my list. I feel relief after and I'm able to be turned on. So that's a great example of something that you could share with your partner, like, a specific technique that you can tell them. And we will say, if this is just a big struggle for you.

Vanessa Marin (15:04)

We have a course called the Art of Initiation, where we walk you through.

Podcast Host (15:08)

More exciting and appealing ways to initiate. We give you tons, tons of examples. So if you're sitting here listening to us say, like, I just. I don't know what ways of initiating would excite me. We'll give you examples, and you can share with your partner.

Xander Marin (15:22)

Yeah, I think that's so important because, you know, one of the things that we always tell people is, like, it's way better to say, do this instead versus don't do this. Like, if you. Or it's. It's okay to say don't do this, but pair that with don't do this and do this instead. But I think a lot of people struggle because they're like, okay, well, I know what I don't want. Like, I don't want the thing that's happening right now, but I'm stuck. I don't know what to say to do instead. And that's where that initiation masterclass is really going to help out. But so I think that's really the key here, is that I think a lot of people get into this pattern of just being like, no, don't do that. No, don't do that. And if you're on the receiving end of that, then you just kind of throw up your hands at a certain point, go, I don't understand. Like, everything I do, they just say no. And then you start doing kind of like initiating in these jokey ways or in the more gropy ways. You're like, I just screw it. Like, and then you kind of don't care because it's like, well, it doesn't matter what I do. They're just gonna say no to everything. So I think it's so important to pair that no with a no, no. But here's something that could be really successful.

Podcast Host (16:32)

Okay, moving on to reason number two. This one's closely related, but we wanted to pull it out and talk about it separately, and that's. That's how often you initiate. This may be something that's annoying or frustrating your partner as well. So somebody on Instagram said he is constantly trying, literally every day, multiple times a day. We like to call this the spray and pray approach. You're just like. You're trying to maximize your chances of getting a yes. So you're just like, let me initiate as often as I can. Maybe one of These times I'll get a yes.

Xander Marin (17:05)

I feel like this often manifests itself in. It's not necessarily like an intentional initiation turns. It's like these jokey initiations. And, you know, like, for example. Or it's like anytime you say something about, like, sitting, it's like, oh, well, why don't you sit on my face? Or, you know, like, that's what she said, or something like that. And it's like. I mean, it's sort of partially like a psychological defense mechanism, I think. Like, there's part of you that is wanting to be initiating, but you're like, oh, well, if I make it a joke, it's not really real. Or it's like, oh, I just like to joke about this. But then the reality is, is what's more important is how are you being perceived by your partner? And, like, your partner is perceiving that you are constantly initiating. So not only are your jokes not funny, but not only is the joke not funny because you're wearing it out, but then, like, they are dreading you initiating sex.

Podcast Host (17:57)

You know what this reminds me of? Like, I think that's a good point that you brought up that, like, they may not even really be that intentional about wanting to initiate. Like, it's kind of funny to think if you were to say, okay, yeah, sure, let's go right now. Like, there might be a bunch of times where your partner's actually like, oh.

Xander Marin (18:12)

God, I'm not ready.

Podcast Host (18:13)

Oh, I actually didn't mean that.

Xander Marin (18:15)

I didn't think that was gonna work kind of thing.

Podcast Host (18:17)

It reminds me of. God, I can't remember what this was, but there was some, like, female comedian, or maybe it was on a TV show or something like that, where she started talking back to guys who were catcalling her on the street. Obviously, this is like a more nuanced and complex thing, but she's like, yeah, okay, let's go.

Vanessa Marin (18:33)

You know?

Podcast Host (18:33)

And the guys were just like, like, I've got a wife. Like, I've got a wife and kids. I was just joking. You know, that kind of thing. Like. Yeah, I think especially when we talk about male and female relationships, a lot of men just sort of feel like that's their role to be constantly bringing it up, constantly, like, have it on the table. But he might not even actually want it in those moments.

Xander Marin (18:54)

So our suggestion is call him out.

Podcast Host (18:57)

No, don't.

Xander Marin (18:58)

I mean, unless you actually want to joke around with it. That could be a playful way. But, yeah, if you're feeling super annoyed or resentful, about your partner, maybe not the best thing to be like, all right, buddy, let's go.

Podcast Host (19:10)

Yeah. The spray and pray method, it's just. It does not end up feeling good for your partner. It's probably translating to, like, a lot of pressure, and it's just not fun. So I think the. The solution for this one is to actually be intentional about when you're truly initiating and to also be conscious about how often are you doing it. Like, if you know you're doing it multiple times a day every day, does that really feel reasonable? Number three was another one of our most popular responses, and that is waiting until it's too late at night.

Xander Marin (19:47)

We have been very guilty of this one in the past.

Podcast Host (19:49)

So guilty. And a whopping 91% of our Instagram audience says that they can relate to this frustration. One person said, I'm really tired after a long day, or I'm totally asleep, which is even worse.

Xander Marin (20:04)

Someone else said, we'll be laying in bed for 30 minutes, and the second I turn off the light to sleep, that's when he wants it.

Podcast Host (20:11)

And somebody else said, we had all day. Why now at 11pm I can also.

Xander Marin (20:17)

Say, like, you know, if you are the person that is doing the initiating late at night, we'll get into why this is a bad idea and what you should do instead. But I can see how it just. It can feel like, like, even higher pressure because you're like, okay, like, it's the end of the day. And now if we don't do it now, we're not going to do it today at all. Like, I have to wait until tomorrow. You know, unless, you know, if you work a more traditional schedule, it's like, I'm not even going to be able to do it tomorrow until, like, way later in the day. And so then it. Yeah, like, you can just come in really hot and heavy because it's like, oh, God, like, I missed all my chances earlier. Now. This is the last chance ever, otherwise I'm gonna have to wait until tomorrow night.

Podcast Host (21:01)

But it's just, yeah, the end of the night, it's just too hard. Like, when you're crawling into bed, you've had a long day, you're exhausted, you just wanna sleep. That is such a tough time to get genuinely excited about intimacy.

Xander Marin (21:15)

Yeah. You don't want anyone doing that calculation in their head. I know most of you have been there. I've been there myself, where it's like, okay, if we do this right now, how long is it? Like, how many minutes is it going to Take how much time? You know, how much less sleep am I going to get? I have to get up at this time, and then, you know, okay, add another half hour on because it's going to be hard to fall asleep right afterwards. But then, like, oh, but, like, what if it isn't a quickie? What if, like, there's, you know, a struggle? We aren't. What if, like, I have performance issues? What if I can't get it up? Blah, blah, blah. And it's like, like, all of a sudden, you've, like, created this whole, like, crazy scenario in your mind, and you haven't even done anything yet. That sucks.

Podcast Host (21:57)

So, obviously, most of us are really busy, and sometimes it can feel like we don't have any free time until the end of the night. But we really want to encourage you to prioritize sex as early in the day as you can. This is our little variation of the fuck first rule. Trying to do it earlier when you have that time and that energy. You also should definitely have a conversation in your relationship about, like, you know, what does it feel like for you when you guys try to initiate at the end of the night? Does that feel like, look, this is genuinely just the only time we have to connect? Or does that feel like, buddy, if you initiate when we're in bed and I'm about to go to sleep, it's just not gonna happen? And definitely have a conversation about waking each other up for sex, because this is very polarizing.

Xander Marin (22:43)

Oh, yes.

Podcast Host (22:43)

Some people are like, ooh. Like, okay, we've had some experiences of Xander waking me up in the middle of the night for sex, and that's been some of the hottest sex we've ever. Like, go ahead, wake me up. I'm down for it. But I'd say the vast majority of people are like, you disturb my sleep.

Xander Marin (22:59)

And I will kill you.

Podcast Host (23:02)

Do not wake me up first for sex. So definitely have a conversation about that. Another option is to schedule sex. If you pick specific days that you're gonna do it, and you can have that in your head going into the evening thinking, like, okay, yes, I know. You know, once the kids go to bed, I know I've got a bunch of chores to knock out, but our scheduled sexy date night day. So I'm gonna do that first, and then I'll do all the chores later after that. You know, it just kind of gives you a different way of. Of thinking about it and getting prepared for it and excited for it.

Xander Marin (23:35)

Yeah. I mean, and. And think about how good it is to get into bed after a long, hard day, you're super tired and be like, yeah, we already had sex. We are good. Hell yeah. I am just passing the out.

Podcast Host (23:49)

I. I actually, actually there's sometimes I have, like, this sense of accomplishment. I'm like, I did so much today. I had a great day. We already had sex. I just get to go right to sleep. It's a great feeling. I don't know if that's the type A in me coming out, but it's a good feeling.

Vanessa Marin (24:10)

Our next podcast sponsor is one of my absolute favorite stories. This is a product that I've bought on my own with my own money. Absolutely loved. And then years later, they came on.

Podcast Host (24:22)

As a podcast sponsor.

Vanessa Marin (24:24)

And this company is Skims. When they were first coming out, I was like, okay, there's so much hype around this. I have to see, what are these products really like? I ordered bras, underwear, a bunch of different stuff, and I was shocked by how much I enjoyed these products and again, spent my own money on them. They were not a sponsor, so when they, years later, like, asked to be a sponsor, I. I was so excited. And they sent us a couple of new items that they have been featuring right now, like their Fits Everybody collection. I've always been very impressed by their fabrics, but this Fits Everybody collection is like, truly next level. The material is so comfortable. It doesn't feel like you're wearing anything. It's sexy. It's fun. Like, we're big fans of lingerie over here. We think there's something really fun about feeling good in your lingerie, feeling excited about what you've got on under your clothes. And I really, truly cannot recommend Skims highly enough. Shop the Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com after.

Podcast Host (25:28)

You place your order.

Vanessa Marin (25:29)

Be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and pillow talks in the dropdown menu that follows. We know a lot of you are parents, and with the kids going back to school, trying to get back into the swing of routines again, you probably need a little help with those busy weeknights, nights and making dinners. And that's why we are very excited to tell you about one of our favorite podcast sponsors, hungryroot. They take all of the stress out of meal time. They fill your cart with personalized picks. They have these incredible meals that come together literally in 15 minutes or less. They have great brands. We have discovered so many new snacks and foods that we absolutely love. And they let you customize what you're looking for so much. So whether you Want, like high protein, gluten free, vegetarian. There's literally something for everybody. We're obsessed with how easy Hungryroot makes meal time. And we have an exclusive offer just for pillow talks listeners for a limited time, get 40% off your first box plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.compillow and use code PILLow. That's hungryroot.compillow code PILLow to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com Pillow code Pillow.

Podcast Host (26:58)

Number four. Your partner gets annoyed with you for initiating because they were in the middle of doing something. We've actually broken down this category, the like in the middle of doing something into two different pieces. So the one we're going to talk about here in number four is they were doing something for you or for the family. So 68% of our audience said that this is something that commonly comes up in their relationship. And the most frequent thing that is getting interrupted is cooking. So we got so many quotes that were like, I was literally in the middle of cooking and Feeding 4 Children dinner. And that's the time my partner chooses to initiate.

Xander Marin (27:34)

Wait, you can't. There's not a pause button on the oven or the burners.

Podcast Host (27:39)

There is not. So we had a really interesting conversation about this one because I think there are so many dynamics that get wrapped up in it. I think a lot of times this can bring up like a responsibility, imbalance, balance. It might feel like for one partner, they might feel like, I'm so busy, I'm doing so many things that sex is the last thing on my mind. While the other, it might feel to them like the other partner seems to have the time and the space for it. It can bring up frustrations around how you've divided responsibilities or mental load. Like, yeah, you just get to come in here and like wait for me to cook your dinner. And I'm the one like slaving over the stove and I already did the grocery shopping and planning what all the meals were going to be. So there's a lot of stuff that can get stirred up by this. So we've got a couple of tips. Like, one is that if your partner gets annoyed with you for interrupting them, you've really got to be careful about choosing your moments, like in the middle of dinner. I think that's a pretty universal. Like if somebody's cooking, they don't want to be interrupted. No, those kinds of moments are great. But also to be able to express appreciation for Your partner. You know, if your partner's getting really irritated in those moments, I bet that there's a pretty high likelihood that they're also just feeling like, I do so much for you, for this family. And, like, sex just feels like yet another thing that's putting. Being put on my to do list. And I don't feel like anybody's recognizing me for all the things that I'm doing. So I'd really lean in pretty hard on, like, showing your partner appreciation and recognizing, like, hey, I see you doing that. I'm really grateful that you're doing that and seeing if there's any way that you guys need to be splitting up responsibilities differently. I will say, though, we also got into a really interesting conversation about the whole idea behind being interrupted. So I'll say for myself, like, there have been times where you have, like, interrupted me to initiate sex or even just, like, for a moment of physical intimacy. And I have felt frustrated. There have even been times where I felt disrespected, where it's like, dude, do you not see that I'm literally in the middle of something? Or, like, I'm doing something so important and, like, you're trying to, like, So I get it. I get the frustration of, like, I don't feel seen when you're initiating in this way. And there have also been times where I've really enjoyed being interrupted because it gave me this feeling of, like, you, like, Xander, you wanted me so badly that you could not wait another moment. It's like, no, no, I can't wait until you finish folding the laundry. Like, I need to have you right now. And I think so many of us, especially in long term relationships, like, we miss that feeling of being so desired by our partner. Like, we think back with fondness to the early stages of our relationship where it feels like, you know, our partner would just get turned on by the tiniest little thing and they had to have us in that moment. Moment. So I kind of go back and forth on for myself on this whole interruption thing where I'm like, sometimes it feels so good to be wanted that badly, and sometimes it feels so bad to be interrupted.

Xander Marin (30:56)

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us can relate with that feeling of being really torn because it's like, on the one hand we say, like, hey, I want to see my partner, like, really want me. I want to see them, like, put in work for me. I want to see them, them. I want to know how much I'm wanted. And then when they do that, it's like, oh, wait, but. But not like that, and not like that and not like that. And so, yeah, it's tough. It's like, we want this thing, and then we get the thing, and then we're like, oh, I don't know. Maybe. I don't. So, yeah, it's tough.

Podcast Host (31:29)

I did come up with. I think this is a pretty good workaround for this, though. So if you see your partner in the middle of doing. Okay, so actually, that's even just another tip in and of itself is like, I think it's important for us to sort of pay attention to our partners and, like, see the things that they're doing throughout the day, rather than just, like, seeing them as the. The object for our sexual gratification, like that quote earlier. So here's the workaround is to say to your partner, I see that you're in the middle of doing something, but I just want you to know that I think you are so sexy right now. And I wish we were alone or wish we had time. Time. So you're giving your partner that validation, that appreciation, that sense of being seen. You're also giving them that sense of, like. Of you desiring them and, like, feeling so attracted to them. And so if your partner's, like, in the middle of cooking, and they're like, I am not going to be interrupted right now. This is the crucial moment, then they get to just kind of, like, hopefully relish in that. That, like, oh, that feels nice to know, like, I wish. I wish I wasn't in the middle of cooking either. And it also opens up the possibility of, let's say your partner's just, like, doing some paperwork, and they're like, oh, okay, well, I could save this paperwork for later.

Xander Marin (32:49)

Oh, that's how sexy I am doing paperwork.

Podcast Host (32:53)

So it does give the space for you guys to be intimate if your partner's open to that. But if they're not open to that, like, it's still can create a little moment of connection, I think.

Xander Marin (33:04)

Yeah. The other thing that I want to say about this, just, like, from my own experience, is this can be a challenging. I'll just speak for myself as a man, as a guy with penis. Part of having sex, at least partially feels like, well, I got to be turned on. I got to be able to. I got to feel confident that I can get it up and perform, is that sometimes it can feel tough because it's like, it in. The mood strikes in. In a quote, inconvenient moment. Right. And you're like, God, like, I I haven't been feeling very sexy recently, or maybe I've been struggling. We haven't been having a lot of sex or when we have, I haven't felt super confident in my own performance or my own erection or whatever. And like, right now I'm pretty sure I'm like, wildly. I'm getting wildly turned on. And like, now is the moment, like, we gotta do it. I've definitely been there myself and it can just be like. And I felt motivated to just really push hard because I'm like, I've been struggling with this and like, and now is the time. But I think something that I've been discovering recently as a good workaround is, you know, you do what Vanessa just suggested. You say, hey, I see that you're doing this. And by the way, I really appreciate that you cook dinner every night. I love, you know, I love your cooking. I appreciate that so much, much. And watching you, I'm just feeling wildly turned on right now. Like, I'd love to talk about this a little later when we have some time or something. So, yeah, you are saying, you know what, we're not going to do it right now. Even though I feel really turned on, I feel like, really confident that I'm going to perform, I'm going to be great, blah, blah, blah. And then when you come back to it later, you guys talk about what was happening in that moment and you can start sharing. Oh, my God, when you were cooking, I was watching. I was watching your butt. It was so sexy. And like, just talking about it, reenacting that moment, like, not role playing per se, but just talking through. But yeah, you can role play it, but just starting to talk it through. Talk through. What were you seeing? What were you feeling? How was it feeling for you? What fantasy were you having or whatever? That is a really good way to kind of jumpstart those feelings and get back into it. So I just wanted to call that out because that's something that I have really learned over time is that it's. Yeah, right now it feels like I would really love to do it. And I feel like I can do it right now, but you can get that feeling later. You just have to be able to talk about it.

Podcast Host (35:34)

Okay. There's one other little wrinkle in this whole, like, the interruption element of it that I want to call out as well. So if you're the one who frequently gets annoyed by your partner, like interrupting you and initiating in these moments when you were doing something else, I think it's really important for you to think about whether or not you actually have the space for your partner to initiate in good times. So I asked our Instagram audience, I said, be honest, be brutally honest here. Do you actually have plenty of times in the day when you're not in the middle of a task and your schedule is actually wide open for intimacy?

Xander Marin (36:14)

This is a tough question because I, I think a lot of us don't really want to fully look at that.

Podcast Host (36:19)

Oh, only 11% said that they have, like, wide open schedule, plenty of times for initiating.

Xander Marin (36:27)

Oh, this could be a problem.

Podcast Host (36:28)

Yeah, it's like, I totally resonate with that frustration of, like, don't you see what I'm doing? Why are you picking this time? This is such a terrible time. And at the same time, I think we also have to recognize there may not be a better time for your partner to initiate the only times that they might have to initiate or literally when they have to interrupt you doing something else.

Xander Marin (36:51)

Yeah. So I think, I mean, that's a great argument for your partner getting more involved, better balance the mental load so that ideally your partner can perhaps help free up some more time for you. But then again, if you guys are both just like, nose to the grindstone, there's literally no time. I mean, that, that sounds like a broader conversation just about relationship and life priorities. And I mean, that gets back to maybe the scheduling of it again, of like, okay, well, let's, let's reserve some time. Let's literally put it on the calendar. Like we would put something else that's important to us on the calendar. And then, you know, work the rest of the things around that on that given day.

Podcast Host (37:31)

Okay. Number five is kind of like the part two of that one. So that might be your partner gets annoyed because they were doing something for themselves in that moment. So before we were talking about they're doing something for you or the family, now it's like they're doing something for themselves. So I think this can feel oftentimes like disrespectful. So one person reached out to us on Instagram and they said, my partner tries to initiate when I'm working out, but this is my only alone time in the day.

Xander Marin (37:58)

Another person said, when I'm in the shower, I feel so gross from being with the kids all day and just want a moment to myself to wash away the day.

Podcast Host (38:06)

So I think what people are speaking to here is they want to feel supported by their partner in being able to have, like, little pockets of alone time, time for self care. And that if you're initiating in those moments, which I'm guessing like for your partner, it probably felt really hard to carve out that time in the first place. Feels like, you know, this is my three minutes a day that I get to be in the shower and be by myself. Like, please just let me have have this time. Like just support them in creating that time. And again, another great conversation to have with your partner of like, what alone time do you need during the day? How can I support you in getting that? What are the things that are really crucial for your mental health or for your self care?

Xander Marin (38:47)

I think this can also be one where it's just like a basic conversation about like what are your individual schedules and what are your experiences like, like with your schedule? Because like, I think one thing that could be happening here is like, let's say one partner works like a 9 to 5 job in an office and they like commute to and from work. I think people that have those type of jobs, you, you can often get your sort of fill of alone time just naturally in going to work and coming back. Like depending on what kind of job it is, maybe you even like work in a cubicle and you're like alone most of the day or you know, you're having interaction but like you're not like constantly with people or you know, or it's just like that 30 minute commute or something. Like you're kind of getting your fix of like, okay, cool, I can listen to a podcast, I can watch a YouTube video, whatever. You get home and you're like, cool, like I've had my alone time. Like now I'm excited to see my partner and I think it's so easy for us to just assume that everyone else works the same way that we do. And you forget, oh, my partner's been home with the kids. Or maybe my Partner works in 9 to 5 too. But they take the kids to and from school like on their way to work and on their way back. And so their commute is not alone to time at all. And so it's just like having an understanding of what is my partner's schedule like and how do they tend to experience life differently for me and just having some empathy for that because when we don't talk about it, when we don't think about it, it just our default thing is, oh well, it must be the way it is for me, for my partner.

Podcast Host (40:18)

Number six, you're not emotionally connected. So 86% of our audience on Instagram said that they feed feel annoyed when their Partner doesn't show any sort of affection, there's no flirting, no nothing until it's time to initiate.

Xander Marin (40:34)

This is kind of, this is kind of like the boob honk one where we were like, oh, there's not enough non sexual touch in your relationship. This is like the emotional version of it.

Podcast Host (40:43)

The emotional component of it. It's like, hello, stranger. Like, why are you just going straight into initiating sex? Like, I feel wildly disconnected from you. Like, that feels like way too much of a leap right now. So one person said, like, we argued earlier in the day and it's still unresolved. They think they can still ask for sex.

Xander Marin (41:01)

Yeah. Another person said, I feel so disconnected from my partner on a daily basis, but they don't seem to notice or care. So there's always zero connection prior to initiating.

Podcast Host (41:10)

So this is an episode entirely in and of itself, like how to create more emotional intimacy in a relationship. But I do think it is really important for couples to recognize that emotional intuition, intimacy is important and necessary. And it can feel very jarring if your partner's initiating something so intimate as sex when you guys are feeling really disconnected from each other. So there's also one little wrinkle in this too that like, yes, there definitely are rude times to initiate or rude ways to initiate where it's just like, I haven't seen you all day, we haven't talked, we're still in the middle of a fight, and I'm like jumping straight for other to start being intimate. But I think it's also really important for us to recognize that for a lot of people, physical intimacy is the way that they feel emotional intimacy. So we do have a whole podcast episode on that. It's episode 38. You want connection, your partner wants sex. Who comes first? So definitely make sure to check that episode out after this one. Number seven, your partner is annoyed with you initiating because they don't think. Think there's anything in it for them. Oh, oh. I think this is a big dynamic that a lot of people don't recognize. Like, if your partner feels like they already know sex is not going to be good, they're not going to get pleasure or enjoyment or satisfaction out of it. Like, of course they're going to be irritated with you for initiating.

Xander Marin (42:41)

And there could be shades of this one. It's not necessarily like, there's nothing in it for you, but it's. It could be like, oh, there's not as much in it. And this can come up in, in a more minor way as well. It could Just be like, oh, there's less. I. I stand to get less out of sex than my partner does. It's not necessarily like, there's nothing in it for me. It could just be like, oh, sometimes I orgasm, but often I don't.

Podcast Host (43:04)

Yeah. Okay, so, like, one person on Instagram said, there's never any foreplay.

Xander Marin (43:08)

Yeah. Another person said sex is over when he's had an orgasm, but mine is never a problem priority.

Podcast Host (43:13)

So, yeah, that's a perfect example. It's like, if my orgasm is never a priority, if there's never any foreplayer, we never do the things that I like the best. Or I get this feeling that you don't really care about my pleasure. Then it's like, well, why would I want to do this thing that's not enjoyable for me?

Xander Marin (43:29)

Yeah. Why would you prioritize it?

Podcast Host (43:31)

Yeah. And you can. You can feel really frustrated at your partner. It's just this reminder of, like, yep, there's you initiating that thing that's all about you and nothing at all about me.

Xander Marin (43:40)

Yeah. Because if you're not, then what. What tends to happen is you just start writing sex off as just this, like, itch that your partner needs to scratch. And. And you start creating this association in your mind where it's like, oh, sex is not for me. Sex isn't something that I'm going to enjoy. And that makes it harder for you to even get to a point where you want to enjoy it more, where you start to take action and explore things that may be better for you. And instead of that, you just add. End up kind of resenting your partner of like, oh, well, they just want this thing that I don't need or I don't want.

Podcast Host (44:13)

Oh, yeah. Okay. Number eight is a really interesting one. I just came up with this one off the top of my head. And I think it was something that. Honestly, I hadn't ever really put words to it, but I resonated with it as soon as the idea came up.

Xander Marin (44:27)

Oh, me too.

Podcast Host (44:29)

Okay, so this one is shame around not being turned on in the exact moment that you're supposed to. Supposed to be turned on. So I think sometimes sex can feel like a pop quiz. Like if you initiate. If Xander initiates sex in this moment. And it was like, sex was the last thing on my mind. I was not there. Like, sometimes there's this feeling of being caught off guard, like, oh, whoa. Like, that's just not where I was. And then there's this little bit of shame that comes up for me. Or, like, Guilt that comes up for me around, like, oh, that's not where I was. And this little tiny kernel of, like, I was supposed to be turned on. Yeah.

Xander Marin (45:10)

What's wrong with me?

Podcast Host (45:11)

Yeah, it makes me feel like, yeah, there's something wrong with me, or I feel kind of bad. And to be perfectly clear, like, I don't rationally think that I have to be turned on in the exact moments that you're turned on. Like, I understand we're different people. We get turned on in different moments, but there's just this feeling that comes up every once in a while sometimes, like, despite what my rational brain will say of, like, oh, like, I was supposed to be ready for that in that moment.

Xander Marin (45:39)

Yeah. I mean, I can relate with this one as well in a bit of a different way more. You know, mine sort of has this, like, this layer of gender or, like, masculinity over it too, which is that, you know, this idea of, like, guys are supposed to always want sex. Guys are supposed to be initiating sex all the time or almost all the time, even if we enjoy it when our partner. Partner. Initiate sex. And so, you know, that was a long time with us when. When you would initiate sex. And it would have been the last thing on my mind. I was super stressed, super overwhelmed. And instead of, I would feel bad about myself, but really I would kind of overreact and just try to shut things down in a kind of rude or mean way. I would. I. I would kind of overcompensate and make you feel better, bad for wanting it, because I was like, hey, I'm supposed to be the one initiating, not you. I'm not ready for this right now. And, you know, I wasn't able to. To verbalize that or conceptualize that idea until later. And I started saying, oh, but, like, the way that I am doing that is by actually, like, literally lashing out at you. And that's a. That's a really shitty place to be. And I think a lot of us do this without realizing especially. But first we have to understand, you know, kind of, like the gender dynamics of it. And, like. Yeah, no, like, if you're a man, you are not supposed to want sex all the time. That's. That's not actually true. Like, we each can want sex sometimes, and we can each not want sex sometimes. That's totally fine.

Podcast Host (47:10)

Yeah. And I think for me, sometimes, like, that little feeling of shame that would come up as a defense mechanism, I would then kind of turn it on you and, you know, be annoyed or frustrated with you for initiating in that moment. Moment as a way of, like, me not having to deal with the shame that was coming up for me. So it's a really interesting little one. And number nine is tied into that one.

Vanessa Marin (47:33)

It's kind of similar.

Podcast Host (47:34)

It's this idea that your partner might get annoyed or frustrated in the moment because they can't mentally change tracks so quickly. So this does also relate to the whole interruption thing that we were talking about. But like, one person on Instagram said, once I'm in the groove of doing something, it's really difficult for me to just snap to being turned on.

Xander Marin (47:53)

Oh, I can relate with this.

Podcast Host (47:54)

Yeah. So it's like, maybe it's not even that you were interrupted in this terrible moment. There was a little bit of spaciousness. You were, like, open to your partner. But when your partner initiates, it's just like, you just can't get your mindset into the sexual mindset.

Xander Marin (48:10)

Yeah. I mean, it could be that you're doing a task that's, like, totally menial or random or, like, not an important task. Like, this happens to me all the time. I put off things that I'm dreading doing or that are important, annoying that aren't that important. And then I finally start doing it, and then I really get into the groove and I'm like, oh, God, I'm almost done. I gotta finish this thing. And then, like, Vanessa asks me about, like, a work thing or about, like, a personal thing or whatever. I'm like, oh, just go away and let me finish this thing. So, you know, I can imagine if it was, like, sex you're initiating, I would react the same way.

Podcast Host (48:43)

So this really ties into the sex drive types as well. We. I guess we'll have to link this too, that we have a free guide about the two different sex drives types. And one of the types is responsive sex drive, where you need physical stimulation first before you can get the mental desire for sex. So if you're asking your partner to just, like, just want sex now, that's not how it works for them. Like, their body has to be appealed to first. So we go into a lot more detail in that free guide about these sex drive types and how they work and how to work with them. But. But I think it's important to understand, like, your partner may not be someone who could just mentally get in the mood and even separate from the sex drive types. Like, that just might be kind of how their brain works. So this one is kind of about just respecting each other the way that you Guys are and not trying to force any sort of expectations on them.

Xander Marin (49:39)

Yeah. I mean, and I can say this from my perspective as someone whose brain does struggle to. To shift gears sometimes. What I do now is that I remind myself, I know right now it doesn't feel like I can shift gears, but I do know from experience that I can. And when it comes to getting turned on, maybe I'm not turned on right now, but I also know from experience, because we have a lot of experience trying this, that I just need a couple minutes. I need a couple minutes to get warmed up and I can come back to the thing that I was doing or I was thinking about. As much as in this moment, it feels like, no, I can never get into the state of mind that I am now. Like, now is the only time to finish it. I also know from experience that I can always come back to it. So it's just like, I just know that my brain is wired in that way, and I just have to give myself a friendly reminder I can do these things. I just need to give myself a minute.

Podcast Host (50:36)

It Number 10, your partner gets annoyed or frustrated because they don't feel physically able to have sex. So one person on Instagram reached out and said, I'm in early pregnancy. I'm constantly sick and tired. Like, I just don't feel capable or up to having sex.

Xander Marin (50:52)

Another person said, I've felt pelvic floor pain. So I just see sex as something uncomfortable, which in turn makes me feel annoyed.

Podcast Host (50:59)

So this one, obviously there are, like, a lot of different details that can come up if there's some sort of injury or illness. Illness. You know, it's. It's difficult to get really turned on and in the mood if you're grappling with something big. So this one is like, we wanted to throw this one out there to name it, but obviously this is going to have to be a personal conversation between couples about, you know, what they're each currently going through, whether that's something kind of a temporary state or it's something more chronic and longer lasting.

Xander Marin (51:28)

Yeah. And maybe just a broader conversation about, like, what are each of our perspectives, Perspectives on, like, times when it is okay and not okay to have sex. Because I think, you know, different people will have different perspectives on that. Like, some people might be like, I don't really care how sick I am. Like, I'm down to have sex whenever. And some people are going to be like, hey, if I'm. If I have a cold, like a mild cold, I'm not feeling up for sex. And so I think those are just kind of like, you know, just general philosophical conversations to have with your partner. And if you notice that you. You guys have a difference than putting some boundaries in place so that you go, okay, cool. Like, you know, for me, I don't mind having sex when I'm sick. So, like, you know, if I'm the one who's sick, like, maybe we do it, but if you're the one who's sick, maybe we don't, or something like that. I think a lot of people just never have those conversations. And again, then we operate from a place of like, oh, well, this is how I feel about it, so therefore you must feel this way about it.

Podcast Host (52:22)

Exactly. And let's bring it on, honey. With number 11. Your partner is annoyed because they feel like sex is expected of them or that they owe sex to you. And whether that's the vibe that you're giving off, the vibe that your partner feels on their own, the vibe society has taught them. A delightful combination of all of the above. But I think this is something that comes up for a lot of people. One person said, sex just feels like yet another expectation that I need to do.

Xander Marin (52:52)

Or they were super grouchy and rude all day and then expected me to take care of them.

Podcast Host (52:57)

So we have an episode that's just about this episode 73. It's called do youo Owe your partner sex? It's such a great episode. Really, really fascinating and nuanced conversation.

Xander Marin (53:09)

And it's not actually just a simple no, it's not.

Podcast Host (53:12)

So go check that episode out if that is a dynamic that comes up for the two of you. Because, yeah, initiation is supposed to feel like an invitation, but if it feels like an expectation or an obligation.

Xander Marin (53:25)

Ooh, fun with wordplay.

Podcast Host (53:26)

Terrible, terrible Dr. Seuss here. If it feels like that, like, of course that's going to bring up frustration and resentment and have it not just feel good in your relationship. So we've obviously talked about a lot of different topics today. I mean, 11 possible reasons. There are already more than I'm thinking of in my head. So obviously, this is a very nuanced and, you know, layered and complicated conversation. And at the same time, like, we've distilled things down into two golden rules here that I think can be really useful for couples to think about with initiation, because, again, it is. It's really important for us to figure out how to do this right in relationships because it's a crucial part of having a great sex life. So rule number one, Everyone is allowed to be turned on whenever they're turned on. Turned on. So I think sometimes what can come up when we talk about, like, a partner getting frustrated or annoyed when their partner is initiating, sometimes it can feel like there's this shame being put on the initiating partner of, like, I can't believe you would want sex in a moment like this.

Xander Marin (54:30)

Yeah, this is inappropriate. You shouldn't feel that way.

Podcast Host (54:33)

Yeah. And again, there definitely are rude and insensitive times to initiate sex. But that basic kernel of desire, we never want to shame our partners for that. There's nothing wrong with being turned on. Sometimes we get turned on in weird moments where we wouldn't think we would be turned on, but somehow we are. So it's like we don't ever want to shame our partner for being turned on whenever it is that they're turned on. We can work on initiation. We can get more skillful and better at it, but your partner is allowed to be turned on. And rule number two, everyone is allowed to be uninterested in sex whenever they're uninterested in sex. Sex. So just because your partner is initiating doesn't mean that you have to say yes, and it doesn't mean that you have to always be interested in or open to sex. In the exact moments that your partner is like, you two are different people. You're gonna be turned on and not turned on in different moments, and that's gotta be okay. So I think if we just start with that basic respect for each other of, I respect when you're turned on, and I respect when you're not open to it. I think that so many of these complex dynamics can just get easier, and.

Xander Marin (55:48)

We have a number of resources to help make that easier for you. We discussed so many things that we offer throughout this episode.

Podcast Host (55:55)

This was like, I think this, like, everything that we offer tied into this in one way or another pretty much.

Xander Marin (56:01)

I mean, this is what we do, so this is what we specialize in.

Vanessa Marin (56:05)

All right, well, I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a Reminder, head to VM Therapy and use code FLASH40 at checkout to get our incredible limited time deal on the art of initiation. It's really going to help you deep dive even more and give you super practical tactical, very easy to implement tools to make initiation so much better in your relationship. So that's vmtherapy.com initiation code flash40 to get the art of initiation for just 40 bucks.