E235: How Your Phone Is Secretly Sabotaging Your Connection (and what to do about it)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Pillow Talks - E235: "How Your Phone Is Secretly Sabotaging Your Connection (and what to do about it)"
Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin
Date: November 20, 2025

In this episode, Vanessa (sex therapist) and husband Xander dive candidly and humorously into how technology—especially our phones—is surreptitiously eroding intimacy in relationships. They discuss their own struggles, share community insights, unpack surprising statistics, test out a "no screens before sex" challenge, and offer a toolkit of actionable steps for couples to reclaim connection in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Phones: The Fourth Most Common Source of Conflict

• [00:00, 03:57]
  After sex, money, and kids, phone use is the #4 reason couples fight.
  • Vanessa emphasizes how phones are an underestimated, everyday disruptor of connection:

    "Phones are the number four most common reason why couples fight. And obviously it doesn't feel good in the moment to be arguing about your phone usage with each other. But it really starts to build up a lot of resentment over time..." [03:57]

  • It’s often less about the phone itself and more about the underlying message: choosing phone over partner.

2. Personal Stories and Community Polling

• [02:41, 04:33, 09:33, 14:09]
  • Both hosts admit to their own imperfect screen habits and share that this is a common struggle, not just a listener issue.
  • Instagram poll results:
    • 49% have argued about phones.
    • 37% have had discussions but not arguments.
    • 13% say "never an issue" (which Xander jokes must be people without cell phones). [02:59]
  • Vanessa illustrates the creeping resentments and death-by-a-thousand-cuts dynamic in her and Xander's daily life: small moments of being ignored for a phone can snowball emotionally.

3. Why Phones Are Particularly Problematic

• [06:01, 07:34]
  • The insidiousness lies in how they divide our attention and how we rationalize our own use but judge our partner’s.

    “We are so quick to justify our own usage but then get upset at our partner...We don't realize we're doing the exact same things.” — Vanessa [06:01-07:34]

  • Phones are engineered for addiction—statistically, Americans check their phone every six minutes.

4. Shocking Usage Stats

• [13:00, 14:15]
  • Average American: 5.5-7 hours a day on their phone.
  • Breakdown: 1.5 hours gaming, 2+ hours on social media.

    "That's almost four hours a day of mindless things. So if you have four hours a day to play video games or be on social media, you have time." — Vanessa [15:17]

  • Xander points out, “No one ever complains that they don’t have time to scroll their phone.” [12:46]

5. Most Annoying Behaviors (from Listener Stories)

• [09:33, 14:07]
  • Scrolling during dinner or date night.
  • Picking up the phone in the middle of (even serious) conversations.
  • Scrolling instead of being present with kids or during family time.
  • Jumping on the phone immediately after sex ("boner killer").
  • Spending excessive time in the bathroom with the phone (often a gender divide).

6. The Sexy Tech Detox: “No Screens Before Sex (or Intimacy)”

• [20:20, 32:04]
  • Instead of a rigid, total detox, Vanessa and Xander try a playful, realistic approach: no screens for non-essential use after 5pm until they’ve shared some form of intimacy.

    "We had to prioritize some form of real intimacy. Before we were allowed to use our screens, we had to earn our screen time." — Vanessa [20:37]

  • Intimacy is broadly defined: could be sex, cuddling, a heart-to-heart, or making out.
  • For parents: adjust the rule to after the kids are in bed.

Results

• The couple found themselves more focused, playful, and connected, culminating in sex every day of the challenge.

  “It brought this really playful energy… We would say, ‘Hey, do you want to go earn our screen time right now?’” — Vanessa [33:01]

  • The rule removed pressure to be “horny first,” embraced spontaneous intimacy, and led to more intentional “us time.”

    “You have more focus on the stuff that's important, whether that's being with your partner...you're not divided again between all these other things.” — Xander [24:09]

7. Bigger Underlying Issues: What If This Feels Impossible?

• [41:31]
  • Vanessa suggests resistance to “no screens before sex” may indicate deeper issues:
    • Imbalanced pleasure in sex
    • Mental load imbalances (“I have a list of tasks a mile long and my partner doesn’t”)
    • Initiation imbalances (how sex is initiated feels bad)
  • The challenge highlights where relationships may be out of alignment or integrity.

8. Other Actionable Tech Boundaries

• [44:05-47:29]
  • No phones at mealtimes or on date night (physically move the phone away).
  • No phones first thing in the morning or right before bed.

    “If I'm not turning over to grab my phone the very first thing...I just start on such a more peaceful note.” — Vanessa [45:19]

  • Airplane mode after 8pm, or other time-based boundaries.
  • Build phone-free rituals—walking the dogs, morning coffee, 10-minute cuddle sessions.
  • Announce why you’re grabbing your phone (“Let me show you this article”), so the gesture reduces feelings of disconnection.
  • Ask for attention before speaking if your partner’s on their device.
  • Make explicit requests for phone-free windows (“As we're getting out of the house, can we do no phones?”).
  • Crucial: No phones during serious conversations.
  • Rule suggestion: Only one screen at a time! No double-screening with TV + phone.

    "One screen at a time. Do not be watching TV and on your phones at the same time. Because we do that all the time..." — Vanessa [36:31]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Phones...start to build up a lot of resentment over time because it leaves you feeling like your second best. Like your partner's phone...is more important to them than you are." — Vanessa [03:57]
• "When those things happen over and over, it's easy to build up a: 'Oh, like, they just don't care about me or they care more about this thing.' It's sort of like a death by a thousand cuts." — Xander [04:33]
• "We don't realize we're doing the exact same things." — Vanessa [07:34]
• "No one ever complains that they don’t have time to scroll their phone. That’s not a complaint anyone has ever made." — Xander [12:46]
• "Let's make sure that we put each other before Instagram reels, before Netflix, before all of our video game playing." — Vanessa [25:05]
• "It brought this really playful energy to when we did have sex...We would say, ‘Hey, do you want to go earn our screen time right now?’" — Vanessa [33:01]
• "Couples waste so many opportunities to connect. And I think women especially are more guilty of this because we are feeling like we're supposed to be turned on...But more women, our sex drives don't work that way...more women have responsive desire..." — Vanessa [34:38, 34:58]
• "If this is giving you heartburn...I'm guessing that it's a sign something bigger is off in your sex life." — Vanessa [41:31]
• "One screen at a time. Do not be watching TV and on your phones at the same time." — Vanessa [36:31]
• "If you can't finish your business in under five minutes, you gotta get up off the toilet. It's not good for your butt." — Vanessa [50:42]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 00:00–02:41: Introduction, framing the phone issue in relationships
• 02:41–04:33: Personal confession: Vanessa & Xander’s own phone arguments
• 06:01–07:34: Unawareness & self vs. partner hypocrisy
• 09:33–14:41: Top problematic moments (from listener poll) & shocking stats
• 14:41–18:42: Deeper dive into phone/social media/gaming stat breakdowns
• 20:20–32:04: The "No Screens Before Sex" challenge—rules, implementation, and results
• 33:01–36:43: How play, humor, and intentionality improved sex, intimacy, and general connection
• 41:09–41:45: Addressing deeper reasons the challenge may feel difficult
• 44:05–47:29: Toolkit of further actionable tech boundaries for listeners

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Final Takeaways

Vanessa & Xander encourage all couples—not just those in crisis—to try some form of tech detox, starting with what feels manageable. The episode’s tone is self-aware (“We’re not immune!”), practical, and light-hearted, making bold recommendations feel accessible. Their core message: put your partner first, before your screens. Not only will your relationship benefit, but you might find yourself—playfully and joyfully—having more intimacy than you thought possible.

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Suggested Starting Challenge

• Try “no screens before intimacy” (define intimacy broadly) for one week—adjust start time to fit your life. Track changes in your own connection and energy.

Closing Wisdom

"I decided to marry this person...I'm saying that they are the most important person to me in the world. Why don't I treat them as such?" — Xander [52:56]

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Transcript

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So, you know, after sex, money, and kids, phones are the number four most common reason why couples fight. How about no phones at meal times? Or especially no phones at date night? Another idea could be no phones first thing in the morning or right before bed. Put your phones on airplane mode after 8pm Just take away your access to be able to, you know, get on the Internet or anything like that. Specific times without phones or screens. So this could be like some sort of ritualized activity. So maybe you guys always take the dogs on a walk together, or you always sit on the porch and have your morning coffee. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[Xander Marin]

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. What if your phone, TV or laptop is the biggest barrier to intimacy in your relationship?

[Xander Marin]

Ooh, tough question.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, if it is, you're definitely not alone. Phones, in particular, are such a big issue in so many relationships, and we are not immune from that. We have our own bad phone behaviors, both of us, separately. We have had plenty of arguments about phone usage as a couple. So for this episode, we decided to do something that we've never done before. A tech detox. And we came up with a little rule that we think might be a bit controversial, but we want you to hear us out on this one. It's called no screens before sex.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Not only did we do a tech detox, we did a sexy tech detox because why not? Like, why detox doesn't really sound fun. No, Right. Like juice detox, Tack detox. Like, you do something because it's like, oh, I need to, like, get something bad out of my system. Right? We were like, okay, why do we want to. Why would. Given that sex is the topic, sex and relationships is the topic we talk about, why do we want to impose pain on our relationship or pain on our sex life while doing something that is not going to feel good? So why don't we make it feel good by making it sexy?

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so let's talk about what an issue phones are. I mean, I don't think this will be a surprise to many people that it's such A problem in relationships. But we've got some stats for you. The average American checks their cell phone every single six minutes.

[Xander Marin]

That's both wild and totally believable.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. We also polled our Instagram community and we asked, have you and your partner ever argued about phone usage? And we had. 49% of people said that, yes, they do argue about it. 37% have said, we've talked about it, but it's not been an argument. And 13% of people who are liars said it's never been an issue.

[Xander Marin]

Wow, biased much?

[Vanessa Marin]

13% of people who don't have cell ph said it's never been an issue. I mean, honestly, that seems crazy to me. I don't believe that 13% of people have never had one single argument about cell phone usage.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, I bet 13% of people have their head buried in the sand. Or perhaps it is the older segment of our audience who doesn't really. Okay, I could say that doesn't really use the smart features of a smartphone. So I can see that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, you know, all right, all right, fine, fair. 13% of people are not liars. Yeah. So, you know, after sex, money, and kids, phones are the number four most common reason why couples fight. And obviously it doesn't feel good in the moment to be arguing about your phone usage with each other. But it also really starts to build up a lot of resentment over time because it leaves you feeling like your second best. Like your partner's phone, a piece of plastic, a tiny little hunk of metal is more important to them than you are.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, that's so, that's so real. I mean, I honestly, I think, like, even just earlier today, like, I remember, you know, I just, I have this kind of flash of a memory of like, you were. Well, like, I. Okay, the way that my perception of it was, was like I'd asked you, like, oh, hey, could you. Blah, blah, blah. I think I was in the shower. It's like, oh, could you grab this? Or could you like, grab me something? And then I noticed, oh, she's looking at her phone. And I, like, didn't hear an acknowledgement of what I had said immediately. And I'm like, I know that you heard me because I'm right here. And then you have just this like split second calculation in your head of like, is she going to look up? Is she gonna, like, I'm holding this thing. I, like, I need her to grab this thing. It's like, you know, it was like the, the. The trash of your empty bottle of face wash. Or something where I was, like, trying to give it to you, and I'm like. I'm, like, wet. I'm holding, like, hey, can you get this out of the shower, please? And. And, yeah, it's just. It's a weird moment in your head where you're like. Like, this is dumb. Like, she. This whatever is on there is going to be there in another second after she just grabs this thing. But, yeah, when those things happen over and over, it's easy to build up a. Oh, like, they just don't care about me or they care more about this thing. And it's sort of like a death by a thousand cuts.

[Vanessa Marin]

Absolutely. And I think what's so dangerous about our phones is that we are very unaware of what we're actually doing with our phones and how bad we are with them. And also, we are so quick to justify our own usage but then get upset at our partner. So I can think back to that moment and think, oh, I was in the middle of something and you asked me to do something while I was already doing something. And I can justify it wasn't that big of a deal. Or it took me literally half a second to grab the thing from you, but then when you do it to me, I feel really frustrated. Why is he not paying attention to me? Why do I have to work so hard to catch his attention? What could he possibly be looking at? At his phone? That's so. And, you know, even. Just. Even when we're not trying to get our partner's attention, but we're just. We see them. Like, I can get lost in my phone watching reels and, like, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. And I don't think there's any sort of problem with. I mean, I know there's a problem, but in the moment. In the moment, I can just get lost in it and whatever. Hey, it's five minutes. It doesn't matter.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Cause no one's watching. When no one's watching you, it's not a problem. Like, if a tree falls in the middle of the forest, no one is hearing it. You're. That's like a weird situation where you're like, well, I'm here, but I'm not here observing myself.

[Vanessa Marin]

But when I watch you spend five minutes scrolling through Instagram watching reels, I'm like, ugh, can't you find something better to do with yourself?

[Xander Marin]

What a waste of time.

[Vanessa Marin]

What are you doing? You're just getting sucked into Instagram like a dummy.

[Xander Marin]

We are judgmental creatures, humans.

[Vanessa Marin]

We're super judgmental. And we don't realize we're doing the exact same things. So, yeah, I mean, tech usage is something that I tried. We both try to be conscious of. We totally understand how easy it is to get sucked in. Our phones are literally designed to be addicting and to get us to keep using them over and over and over again.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, what other substance do you use every six minutes, Eli? I mean, getting. Getting really dark with it. If you're talking about any other thing that humans tend to get addicted to, think of the most insidious drug that you could be addicted to. Almost nobody is using it every six minutes.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, no, you're totally right. So both of us try to be conscious of it, and we'll each, in different times, in different ways, try to ease up. And I will say, overall, I think you and I have pretty healthy relationships with our phones. We definitely have the moments where we get sucked in and, whoa, where did that last 10 minutes just go? But overall, it's not a huge source of conflict for us. So I think we do put a good effort into trying to be conscious of it. But lately I had been noticing, like, oh, man, I'm really using my phone a lot more than I want to be. And I think a lot of it did start with my dad getting sick. I kind of gave myself a bit more permission to, like, hey, it's okay. Sometimes I just need to zone out. I've got so much heavy stuff going on in my life right now. Like, it's good to laugh. It's good to, like, look at these cute and silly Instagram accounts that I follow.

[Xander Marin]

It's good to escape.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So I was giving myself.

[Xander Marin]

But it's almost never. I wanted to say it that way because it's like, when you actually come out and say it that way, you're like. Like, in my mind, I'm like, well, yeah, I guess I do want a little escapism. But then it's like, do I really want to really want to die on the hill of it's good to escape? Yeah, it's not really like that. When you put it that way. It's, like, very active. Like, oh, I am trying to escape from something, so why don't I try to face whatever that thing is?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So we also asked our Instagram community, and by the way, if you're not over there, get your butt over there. We're at Vanessa and Xander on Instagram and TikTok. So we asked, what's the worst impact of your partner's phone usage? The biggest annoyance or the most inappropriate time that they're on their phone. We just wanted to collect, like, bad behaviors. So we got a great list. These are some of the most.

[Xander Marin]

Give us your bad behaviors.

[Vanessa Marin]

Common responses. Scrolling while eating dinner. Very popular. And even scrolling during date night. Oh, it's so bad. I think actually this one was the most popular time in the bathroom scrolling.

[Xander Marin]

But my question here is they're not meaning, like me scrolling in the bathroom is problematic. It's my partner scrolling in the bathroom that's problematic.

[Vanessa Marin]

I think there's a real gender breakdown with this one. I think men have a tendency to spend a lot longer in the bathroom on their phones than women do.

[Xander Marin]

Male vacation daily or multi. Twice daily vacation.

[Vanessa Marin]

Another person said, always picks up their phone mid conversation, Even serious conversations. It feels like they're saying, I don't care about what you're saying.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I think this is something that we. I wouldn't say we struggle with this now, but I do have a memory of, like, early on in the smartphone era. I think this was something that happened with us a lot. And I remember this. That's a really painful one where you're like, hey, this is serious. Like, we're talking about something serious. Like, what could possibly be more serious?

[Vanessa Marin]

The ding on my phone. It's dinging. Something's happening there. I need to check it immediately. I mean, we're literally trained. We hear those little notification dings and we want to look right away. I think some of us just, you know, we do it unconsciously. But yeah, it's really painful when you're trying to connect with your partner and they're paying more attention to their phone. We also got on the phone instead of watching the baby or on the phone instead of hanging out with the kids. Totally disengages around my family by scrolling. That's something that I. I've done that before. I've been frustrated with you for, like, we'll be at family dinner night and everybody's at the table having conversation. You were doing it last night. You were on your phone during family dinner night.

[Xander Marin]

Yes, I was. We were also talking about. Yeah, I could get into the excuse. Yeah. But I did. I was.

[Vanessa Marin]

Another person said I was working on.

[Xander Marin]

Something for us in our home.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yes. And then he lingered a little bit longer. That's another. That's just like, another thing about phones is that oftentimes we start using it for a good reason. Oh, I have to make this appointment or I have to find this number or whatever. And then we get Sucked into like, oh, just watch a quick little Instagram reel or oh, I got a notification of something. So it's just so easy to get sucked in. We also heard my partner says we don't have enough time for intimacy, but they always have time to mindlessly scroll.

[Xander Marin]

Interesting, huh?

[Vanessa Marin]

That's a huge one. I would venture to say the vast majority of couples say not having enough time is one of the main reasons why they don't have more sex. And yet.

[Xander Marin]

But even before you do that, I never hear anyone say, I never have any time to scroll my phone. Yeah, that's like no one's complaint in life is, God, I just wish I had more, more time to mindlessly scroll. Okay, said nobody ever.

[Vanessa Marin]

I have another stat for you though. And this actually I was like, I don't. Okay, hold on. I'll just say. How many hours a day do you think the average American spends on their phone?

[Xander Marin]

A lot many hours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Just take a guess at how many hours.

[Xander Marin]

Six.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, it's 5.5. Very good guess. But I was like 5.5. That doesn't sound like very much. I think people spend even more. But even if it's five and a half hours a day, like you have five and a half hours a day to be on your phone. And yes, some of that might be for work, it might be for adult stuff that needs to be taken care of. I'm not saying that's five and a half hours a day on Instagram.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I'm guessing it also may be listening to a podcast or something. Something like maybe you're passively using the phone. That's the one thing. Cause six hours is a lot. That's close.

[Vanessa Marin]

You have five and a half hours a day to be on your phone. You have enough time to have sex with your partner.

[Xander Marin]

Uh huh. You have a lot. You have. You have more than enough. You have time for sex with your partner and you have time for a lot of other stuff.

[Vanessa Marin]

And our last response was my partner gets on the phone immediately after sex.

[Xander Marin]

Which is boner killer.

[Vanessa Marin]

Really tough. Well, you might not have a boner killer.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, yeah, if the refractory period didn't get you, that one will.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay. Actually I just looked this up because I wanted to know and I found a different website. This website says the average American spends seven hours and three minutes per day on their phone. So slightly different stat from what I pulled earlier and globally six and a half hours a day. And then they did this breakdown of what is the daily time spent on. They did it for video games and for social media.

[Xander Marin]

Ooh. Okay, interesting.

[Vanessa Marin]

This is insane. In the US Daily time, on average, every day, the average person. And like, I play zero video games.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, me. Me too. So we are bringing these averages.

[Vanessa Marin]

Bring these averages.

[Xander Marin]

We are helping somebody out here who spends like 12 hours a day playing video games on their phone.

[Vanessa Marin]

An hour and a half on video games, 2 hours and 14 minutes on social media.

[Xander Marin]

Wow. Well, I mean, our usage is gonna skew the social media because, like, we are on social media for work. Yeah, for a good portion of the day.

[Vanessa Marin]

But that's almost four hours a day of mindless things. So if you have four hours a day to play video games or be on social media, you have time.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, you're struggling to make time for intimacy, man. Cut the video games, cut the social media, or reprioritize.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

Things that would have more normally fallen.

[Vanessa Marin]

Under the umbrella of detox, different levels of severity. We even considered no phones whatsoever other than what we need to do for work. So I will say I think we could have been a little bit braver and really gone for it, but just with the season of life that we're in right now. And also I thought, I don't know if you and I could probably tough our way through it. But I want people listening to this episode to be inspired to try a detox of their own. And I didn't want to do something so extreme that people would think, fuck these guys. I'm not doing that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think we kind of reconsidered it a bit where it was like, well, detox is maybe kind of extreme. And often people don't do detoxes, whether that, you know, like food, juice detox, even, you know, like drug or alcohol detox. Typically people don't do that unless they're in a very extreme situation. And so I think we kind of thought, okay, what is it that we are trying to solve here? What is the biggest problem that we see is people saying they don't have time for intimacy, they don't have time for sexual. And yet no one's complaining that they don't have time for their phone. And in fact, people are complaining that their partner is spending too much time on their phone. And maybe that's getting in the way of intimacy. So it's like, okay, let's think about this in terms of priorities. Like let's, let's figure out a way to do something interesting that ensures that we have time for intimacy. Right where it's almost like, okay, if you want to, if you want to escape, you gotta earn it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so here's the challenge that we came up with. We decided to try this for a week. We ended up stretching it on for longer. But we said the rule was no screens before sex. Now we liked the alliteration of no screens before sex.

[Xander Marin]

In my head I was singing it to no sleep till Brooklyn by Beastie Boys.

[Vanessa Marin]

No screens before sex. Okay, but what we decided to do is we don't want to be put, the alliteration is nice, but we don't want to put pressure on ourselves that we have to have sex. So we decided to think of it more broadly as intimacy. Something that was actually genuinely connecting. It could have been cuddling, it could have been like a heart to heart conversation, it could have been making out. But we had to prioritize some form of real intimacy. Before we were allowed to use our screens, we had to earn our screen time. And so what we decided to do, our schedule is obviously different because we work for our, ourselves, we work from home, we're entrepreneurs. So sometimes we're working at weird hours or just checking in on things. But what we decided to do is like we set this arbitrary time of 5pm so from 5pm onwards, if we, we were not allowed to use our phones for fun purposes, if some, that, you know, we weren't crazy about this, if something came up at work, if there was a, you know, personal emergency or something like that, like we weren't going to be insane about it.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we weren't really counting work.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Stuff. And so yeah, arguably you could, you might hear this and take it to the extreme and be like, well, so, well, you just have to have morning sex because then otherwise you can't go to work. We didn't consider work stuff as screens. That's what we do to earn a living. So we didn't include that. And obviously, you know, we made understandable exceptions. If there's a work thing, hey, I'm going to pull out my phone and take care of this work thing. It was more of around 5 o'. Clock. It's around the time that we generally would like to be have an understanding that we're going to be done with work. It was like, okay, cool, around 5 o', clock, let's assess where we are at. What else do we have to do today in terms of other life stuff? And then, you know, at this point in our lives, we have a pretty good idea of, you know, what our schedule is each day. And generally when we sit down to like watch TV or whatever. And so it's just an invitation for us to be like, okay, might we want to reconsider the order that we do things in? Or like, should we pause for some intimacy first? Should we earn our screen time?

[Vanessa Marin]

And so, you know, we don't have kids, so that makes it a lot easier for us to choose a specific time. But I want to say if you're a parent, one way to adapt this would be once the kids are in bed, then from that time on it's okay, we're prioritizing intimacy time before phones.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, but you, and you could even take that further. You could be like, okay, once we are home from work or whatever. Then, you know, there's still, it could still be no screens before sex. Obviously the kids are around, you're doing stuff with the kids. But it's also great invitation to be like, hey, I'm also going to be fully intentionally there, cooking dinner, being with the kids, like not going to be escaping or, you know, going in the Instagram rabbit hole while the kids are awake. It's a, it's a great opportunity to be like, yeah, no, like we gotta earn our screen time later. But until then, let's do all the things that we would otherwise do family wise, fully, intentionally, with full focus. And I think the, the interesting thing is, I think if you try that, you'll find that you are much more open to the idea of intimacy as soon as you get to the point where it's available to you. Because honestly, maybe I'm jumping ahead a little. But like one of the things that I really took away from this is, is that spending, even if it's just a couple minutes here or there, distracted on my phone, oh, let me watch this video, or let me watch a couple reels or whatever, it sucks away like my life energy. Like, it unfocuses me. I feel untethered. And then it's like the idea of intimacy is not top of mind. And like I might be thinking about it and be like, oh, okay, yeah, I feel a little like, like all over the place right now. Like not really, like focused in on this. And what I found is when I'm not doing that, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, fuck, yeah, let's have sex. Like, it was just a. You have more focus on the stuff that's important, whether that's being with your partner, making dinner, hanging out with the kids, being with family, and then you're done with that. You're not. Your focus isn't divided again between all these other things. And it's like, oh, what's next on the menu? Intimacy. Boom, let's do it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I mean, going back to the, like, the idea of adjusting it, obviously, everybody's schedule is different. Everybody's situation is different. So, you know, you might need to. If you want to try this, you'll need to play around with what's going to work for your unique family and life. But the general idea that we were working with is let's make sure that we put each other before Instagram reels, before Netflix, before all of our video game playing. We're focusing a lot on our phones, but I think Netflix is a big problem too. It's so easy to zonk out in front of Netflix.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, let's just watch half an hour of Bake off or whatever.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, like, oh, we're gonna. Just gonna watch it during dinner and, oh, let's finish this episode. Oh, let's start another episode. You know, once you get cozy on the couch watching Netflix, it's getting over. You're not getting up until it's time to actually go to bed. So I think Netflix is. Can be just as Netflix's. Netflix can be just as dangerous as phone usage, too.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And so I think that when you are. Then, you know, when you are saying, hey, I'm not going to touch this stuff until we have intentional time together. One, you're bringing more energy into the time that you do have together because you haven't, like, you haven't, like, laid down, splayed out on the couch and started to zone out. You haven't started scrolling, so you're bringing that energy. Also, the other thing is when you are both committed to doing this together, you're. It feels so good to see your partner. You're like, hey, let's like, let's earn our screen time. Let's do, you know, like, let's have some us time before we start to, you know, zone out, relax. And it feels so good knowing, hey, my partner is prioritizing this just as much as I am. I think that's something that gets missed so much with. With intimacy, but really with sex in general is when you, when you get into this place where it's like, oh, well, like the. The one part when the assumption of like, okay, well, the partner that's all of a sudden horny has to initiate with the other partner. It doesn't necessarily feel like the other partner cares so much about sex. Right. Because it's like, okay, well, I'm horny. My partner is obviously not. They're a little taken aback by me asking if they want to have sex. And you kind of are like, oh, okay. Like, oh, this feels a little weird. Like, maybe they're not that into it. But with this idea of no screens before sex, you get to that point where like, okay, cool. Like, now intimacy is going to be the next natural thing on the priority list before we start the wind down, before we do all the relaxation. And it's like, it feels. I just found. It felt so good being like we were both a hundred percent on the same page. And I found. And I know that you said that, you know, we set it up where it was like the. The pressure wasn't on to have sex. But what I found, and I think what other people will likely find, is when you bring that you still have as much energy as possible, given whatever time it is in the day, because honestly, you're like, oh, I just want to relax for five minutes. You never come out of that. Like, oh, yeah, I'm so energized after my five minutes of relaxation. No, it takes you further down the relaxation road. Right. And so when you have that energy and you have that. Those good vibes of like, hey, we're both prioritizing each other. I found that I wanted to have sex, and I think you found you wanted to have sex. And I think that most people will find that too. When you. When you do it this way, even though it's not like, hey, we're required to have sex, you're far more likely to want to because you're both be like. You're both, like, excited that you're prioritizing each other.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I think one of the big things that comes up with our screen usage is that we wind up giving each other the scraps that we have left. And you're totally right. That screens feel so alluring because it feels like, oh, I'm just gonna relax. I'm just gonna unwind. But it doesn't actually end up feeling relaxing. You wind up losing track of time. If you're on social media, you often wind up getting all riled up because you get some, like, creepy conspiracy theory or political post or someone doing rage baity kind of content. You get yourself riled up. Your brain is literally crashing from having all these dopamine hits. So it just doesn't. You don't feel good afterward. And we keep going to it thinking, like, I'm gonna feel good, and then we don't feel good. And you wind up giving your partner just the little scraps that you have left. So that was really the intention behind this. Detox is what if we take the energy that we do have at the end of the day and focus on giving as much of it as we can to each other first? Yeah, it's not that we can never watch Netflix again or never look at Instagram again, but let's just put each other first before that stuff.

[Xander Marin]

And then, surprise, surprise, once you do earn your screen time, it feels really good to be like, hell yeah, I'm gonna relax on the couch. Hell yeah, I'm gonna give myself permission to mindlessly scroll for 10 minutes. Cause I think the other thing is when you are just generally mindlessly scrolling at like 6pm when you know that maybe you should be doing other things. It's like that feeling I used to get. I don'. If other people have this. This was something I really struggled with in college. I had a lot of. I had a lot of homework to do for all of my classes, right? I did not have good time management skills. And so. And there was a lot of. I have way better, way better than I did before. But. But you know, in. When you're in college or I'm sure people have this experience in high school too. There's a lot of things that are competing for your attention, right? Friends are doing things. Stuff is happening. You can hear it outside of your dorm room. People having fun. You could go here, you could go there, you could do this, you could do that. And you could also do this pile of homework that you have. I just remember that feeling of constant stress of I would be doing something that I'm like, hey, I'm doing this because I want to have fun or I don't want to miss out. And I'm like, God, I really should be, like, doing that math homework. I really should be doing that Spanish homework. I really should be doing that, whatever this or that project, right? And it just felt like I was never able to get ahead of that. And I think that's what we're doing in everyday life with this. It's like, oh, God, I really should, like, spend. It would be so nice to spend some time with my partner. We haven't had sex In a while. Oh, God, I'm just so tired though. I'm just gonna. Oh, I'm gonna look at this on my phone for a little bit. And it's just like you're distracted. You know, you should be doing something else. But you wanna do this thing. Cause you wanna get that little hit of dopamine gives you. Right. And it's just like. It's kind of. You're just putting yourself in a place where you're out of integrity with yourself and who you want to be, what you want to do.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So we've already kind of spoiled it and gotten into it. But the end result of the detox is that we had a great time. So much so that we extended it a whole other week. And we're basically still doing it, Continuing to do it. Yeah. So for those two weeks, even though it wasn't the rule, we did wind up having sex every day, which was really nice. And it just felt. It brought this really playful energy to when we did have sex. Like we were making all these silly jokes with each other about like that actually turned into how we initiated with each other. We would say, hey, do you want to go earn our screen time right now? So it just felt really fun and playful, which is important. It didn't feel like this big heavy rule that we had to do, like, oh, God, okay, gotta to go do this now. It just felt really silly and light hearted and gave such a great way to initiate with each other.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And it also took the pressure off of either of us for needing to feel, like, wildly horny in any given moment because it was like, oh, hey, no, this is this thing that we want to do together because we want to prioritize this over other things. So let's go to the bedroom or wherever we want to go, and let's together get ourselves into the mood to do that. And I mean. And yeah, you don't have to. If you don't want to have intercourse or sex every single day, then yeah, you don't have to get each other into that mood. You can do something else intimate together. But I think that what we found is that it would be like, okay, well, once we got there, it was like, all right, well, but like, really, like, what else, what else are we going to do? Like, why don't we. Like, why don't. Why not? It's fun. Like, yeah, it's fun. We're both here. Yeah, we're here. We're connected. We both want to intentionally be here together. Like, why the fuck not?

[Vanessa Marin]

And I think that that's one of the biggest mistakes that couples make with their sex life is they think that you have to be horny first to have sex. And that is just so not true. First of all, that's not how one of the two sex drive types works. If you don't know what we're talking about, scroll back a few episodes because we have an entire episode all about the two sex drive types, spontaneous and responsive. You definitely need to know that. But also, it's. Yeah, I want couples to understand that getting each other in the mood is part of the process. We don't have to just sit around waiting to magically be horny out of nowhere.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we can make each other horny once we know what the other likes. Like, why don't we do the things that we know are going to work for the other partner?

[Vanessa Marin]

But couples waste so many opportunities to connect. And I think women especially are more guilty of this because we are feeling like we're supposed to be turned on. We're supposed to want it so bad. And if we don't, then we can't connect with our partner. But more women, our sex drives don't work that way. Again, go check out that episode that I mentioned.

[Xander Marin]

More women have responsive desire, which all it means is you need something to respond to. So you got to figure out what. What kind of touch do you like? What kind of other emotional connection do you like that gets you to that point?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So for us, knowing that we were prioritizing this first, focusing on connecting with each other, being silly and playful and light hearted, having more energy, not being triggered or hyped up by whatever we were watching, that when we were in those moments together, feeling connected, then it just naturally felt like it led to like, hey, okay, well, let's go further. Let's do more. So that was really fun and exciting and just made it feel so much easier. And then on the other end of it, I think, you know, we would start our evenings feeling so connected to each other that then we did wind up using our phones less. I mean, we still used our phones, we still watched some Netflix, but it felt like even this might seem small, but even things like when we were watching Netflix, we'd be sitting next to each other and maybe holding hands or cuddling. We did less of dual screen time, of like watching Netflix and we're both on our phones. That is the freaking worst. I think that's. That in and of itself is a great fucking rule to have one screen at a time. Do not Be watching TV and on your phones at the same time. Because we do that all the time. And then someone's like, wait, what just happened? We need to rewind it. And then you rewind it and watch it again. And then they still didn't see it because they were still on their phone. You're like, I'm not rewinding it a second time. You have to pick which screen you're paying attention to. So TV can be fun to watch together and you can get all cute and cuddle up and cozy.

[Xander Marin]

But yeah, that's the point of it. That's why we watch. That's why you watch. You don't watch tv. So that you can then bring out another, another screen and also watch that screen.

[Vanessa Marin]

But we, we're so guilty of that.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, I, I know, I know.

[Vanessa Marin]

One screen at a time.

[Xander Marin]

More recently, I have been kind of accepting if I'm gonna do that. I'm like, you know what, I'm clearly prioritizing my phone over the tv. So if I miss something, I miss something. But that's, I'm not saying that's right, but I do think it's that acceptance of, yeah, this is what I'm doing. I'm acknowledging that I'm doing this. I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be the dummy that's like, okay, we gotta rewatch that entire episode.

[Vanessa Marin]

You, you do that all the time. And then I'm like, babe, just let me explain it to you before you start rewinding it. But you already started rewinding it, so that might be the next rule that we have to play around with. One screen at a time.

[Xander Marin]

Okay.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

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[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

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[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

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[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so let's talk about some other boundaries or guidelines that you could have with your phones. This was just the thing that we happened to decide to do. We loved that alliteration of like, no screens before sex. It just felt really fun and playful. But of course, there are other things that you could do. And I definitely recommend that every couple does some sort of text tech detox. We could all use it.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Before we get into the other ones, though, I do want to bring up because I think that a lot of people are going to hear this, this idea, and they're gonna be kind of intrigued by it. No screens before sex. But they're also gonna feel concerned. They're gonna feel kind of like a little bit heartburn where it's like, oh, God. But what about this? What about that? And I think that what is gonna come up for a lot of people, this is a really good test. If you think about, okay, what would it look like if I put a good faith effort into implementing this in my sex life? If you're feeling like that can't work for you, I have a couple suspicions. I think that probably it indicates that there might be a pleasure problem, an imbalanced pleasure problem in your relationship where it doesn't feel like a great idea to you because you're not sure that one of you, probably the person that's worried about it. You are not sure that you are going to be equally satisfied as your partner with the sex that you're having. I'm guessing that it might indicate there might be a mental load, a serious mental load imbalance in your relationship where it feels like, okay, well, this would be easy for my partner to implement, but it wouldn't be easy for me because I have a list of tasks a mile long. I can't just say, oh, boom, at five o'. Clock, at eight o', clock, we transition over to, okay, like, now let's earn our screen time, right? Like, I have this list of things that never ends and my partner doesn't. They're sitting around watching video games, so how the hell would this actually work? Right? Like, they're zoned out at 5 o' clock and I'm working my ass off until 9pm that's something that's gonna. You're gonna need to look at. It might indicate that there's an initiation imbalance or problem. Your partner initiates sex with you, or you initiate sex with your partner. They always say no, or they always initiate with you in a way that doesn't feel good and you don't wanna say yes. It indicates there could be a problem with that where it's like, oh, the way that they asked me to have sex, just squicks me out and I'm worried that even my partner saying, hey, let's earn our screen time, might feel yucky to me. And so I think that this is a really good test of. Have you figured out these fundamental things in your sex life yet? Because if this is giving you heartburn thinking about prioritizing intimacy with your partner before other stuff, I'm guessing that this is a. It's a sign that something bigger is imbalance or off in your sex life that you absolutely need to and deserve to address.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right, okay, so let's talk about some other potential boundaries or guidelines for phone usage that you could have. How about no phones at meal times or especially no phones at date night? I think that could be just. Even if you just do that. No phones at date night. Put the freaking phones away.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, it's a great family rule. A great date night rule.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So set yourself up for success with this one. I think you really need to physically move your phone. Like, put it in another room, turn it off, turn it on silent. Because once you hear those little notification dings or you see the screen flash up, like, it's just game over. Another idea could be no phones first thing in the morning or right before bed. Honestly, that's really good for your brain. We all should be doing that. I've been doing that lately in the morning, and noticing if you're. Makes such a big difference for me, if I'm not turning over to grab my phone the very first thing before.

[Xander Marin]

I wake up, I'm not quite there yet.

[Vanessa Marin]

No, you're not.

[Xander Marin]

But to be fair, I am. Also, the very first thing I do on my phone every single morning is check the surf. I can't do that without my phone, without getting in the car and driving 10 minutes, and that still doesn't give me all the answers I need.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yes, but then you do end up looking at other stuff. It just sucks you in. And then you're starting your morning feeling stressed out, and you know you've got a million thoughts going through your head already. But when I've found that when I don't look at it first thing in the morning, I just start on such a more peaceful note. And then right before bed, like, you really shouldn't be. You know, we all know this. I'm not saying anything new, but we shouldn't be looking at our phones for, like an hour before bed. I'm not so great at that, but. Because I don't really have sleep issues. If I had sleep issues, that'd be the first thing.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I'm really fortunate that it's not caused me problems. If it were to start causing me problems, that's the first thing that I would change. But yeah, I'm. I mean I can like feel I'll be on my phone. I'm like, I'm. My eyes can't stay open anymore, fortunately. But also, I mean I. I think phones automatically do this these days. Fortunately is like that blue light filter. Like, you know, things go start to go red later at night, which I do think is really good on your eyes. It's not, I. It's not, it's not like it doesn't solve all the problems.

[Vanessa Marin]

Better than nothing, but.

[Xander Marin]

Better than nothing. But yeah, fortunately I do find personally just that like, yeah, I don't have a problem, I don't find myself. But then also it's like, you know, I don't go down the type of rabbit holes that tend to like create more activation.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, Another rule. Put your phones on airplane mode after 8pm Just take away your access to be able to, you know, get on the Internet or anything like that. Specific times without phones or screens. So this could be like some sort of ritualized activity. So maybe you guys always take the dogs on a walk together, or you always sit on the porch and have your morning coffee, or you always go, I can't think of another example.

[Xander Marin]

Cuddle session, go to the grocery store.

[Vanessa Marin]

10 minutes of cuddles or something like that. But yeah, some sort. If it feels like a ritual, like, oh, this is this thing that we are always do. It's a daily activity. Like that can be a nice thing.

[Xander Marin]

You can even program that type of thing into your phone. Like you can schedule like do not disturb time or whatever so that it's like, hey, between the hours of 12 and 1, never give me a notification. You can absolutely do that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay. One thing that we have done is we try to get a little bit more intentional about announcing or explaining why we're grabbing our phone. So for example, let's say we're having dinner together and we're talking about something and, and I just saw a cool article about this. Like I would say, oh, I just saw an article about this. Like, let me pull it up on my phone and I'll read it to you. Cause phones and screens can be used for connection. Like there's a lot of cool stuff on the Internet.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, you can further the conversation, whatever you're talking about.

[Vanessa Marin]

But just like having, just taking that couple of seconds to explain it to your partner beforehand, that helps them understand, oh, I'm doing this to connect with you. I'm not grabbing my phone because you're boring me or I, I, you know, I'm more interested in what's going on on my phone. So that can be super helpful. And then on the flip side, sometimes we try to ask each other for each other's attention before we start talking to them. So I do think this is kind of like a, this is a bad test that so many of us do on our partners. We'll see that they're on their phone or on their laptop or whatever it is and we'll start talking to them and ask them to do it. Just like you did with the shampoo bottle. Right? Is we ask them to do something knowing that they're already distracted and then we get mad at them for not paying attention. And I do think like it's both ways. I do think, like we could, I could in that instance where you were asking me like you weren't setting me up for success in that moment and I could have been paying more attention to you than being zoned out on the phone. So it's both things. But I think when we can ask for attention ahead of time, that can just be so much better. Like, hey, I need to talk to you about something. Can you put the phone down? Or like, hey, can I get your attention real quick? It's so easy to do. It prevents a lot of bickering and fights. Just ask for that attention ahead of time. Similarly, you can make requests for phone free time. So something that I've done before is like, let's say we're trying to get out of the house for an appointment. I will ask you like, hey, we're running a little bit late. We gotta get out of the house at this time. Could we do no phones so we make sure we get out of here in time. Or you could do it with the friggin bathroom with your partner. Like, we gotta get out of here. I know you're gonna use the bathroom. Can you leave your phone outside the bathroom? I mean, that in and of itself is another good rule. Just like, let's stop bringing our phones in the bathroom. It's so gross.

[Xander Marin]

I don't like that one.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's so gross to use your phone, phone in the bathroom.

[Xander Marin]

I think the bathroom is a pretty.

[Vanessa Marin]

Just a normal thing covered in fecal matter.

[Xander Marin]

You know, the world is covered in fecal matter, man. Our dogs everywhere outside, there's just fecal matter all over the place. All think about all the animals other than humans. We're the only ones that poop in toilets. Those animals, man. That fecal matter. It's everywhere. Talk about conspiracies, man. No one is talking about. No one is talking about the fecal matter.

[Vanessa Marin]

I just think it's. I mean, I'm guilty of it too, but I just think it's really gross that we all do it. We should just leave our phones outside of the bathrooms also, because then you spend way more time in the bathroom, and it's not good for you.

[Xander Marin]

That's true.

[Vanessa Marin]

Doctors always say five minutes or less. If you can't finish your business in under five minutes, you gotta get up off the toilet. It's not good for your butt.

[Xander Marin]

I can't get up. I'm in the middle of something important.

[Vanessa Marin]

You got five minutes. Okay. So. Yes. Asking ahead of time for, like, you know, specific phone free time or you. Same thing with, like, a date night. Hey, could we have this meal? Could we have this date with zero phones? Just make those requests ahead of time. A great rule that everyone should have is no phones during serious conversations. Like, you don't. You don't need to pull up an article. You don't need to ask chatgpt. Like, just don't have any screens out when you're trying to have serious conversations. Yeah, I just think that's a rule that every couple should have. All right, well, that brings us to the end of our tech detox episode. We hope you feel inspired to take some action. I mean, bottom line, we all know that we have bad behaviors with our phones, our screens, our TVs. We all know that we should be making some changes. So I hope this episode inspires you to actually take some action. Start with something that feels small and manageable. Maybe one of the tips that we just went over, But I do think maybe working your way up to doing a fuller detox like we did could be really beneficial. I definitely recommend trying no screens or fragrance.

[Xander Marin]

Try it.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's fantastic.

[Xander Marin]

Give it a try. See how it goes. If it brings anything up for you, it's an invitation to address other imbalances in your sex life that are probably not ruining it necessarily, but definitely putting a damper on it. It. I think that this is real. Like, doing this really shines a light on your sex life, and it kind of leaves us with nowhere to hide. And it's like, if there have been things that we were. We've been burying our head in the sand or we've been putting off having certain discussions, this really exposes it in a. In a way that can be a little scary, but also, like, think about how good it would feel if you were like, like, hell, yeah. We both like, sex is top of mind. We prioritize it. It is so much more important than all of these other things in our life because, look, I decided to marry this person. I decided to be with this person long term. I'm saying that they are the most important person to me in the world. Why don't I treat them as such? So, boom, I'm going to leave it on that mind drop right there.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right. Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thanks so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday. Boom, boom.