Zander Marin (2:29)

Hmm.

Vanessa Marin (2:29)

So I thought this was really an interesting way of putting it, and I think. I think that she's looking at it as this special thing that only women have to do. But I would say to that that everybody has to learn how to have an orgasm with a partner. Like, it's not a. It's not a completely instinctual process. Like, it takes some effort and some work to figure out what you like. And your connection with each individual person can be totally different. So something that one partner did to make you orgasm in the past might not necessarily work with another partner. So I think there's a resetting that happens with each partner you have too.

Zander Marin (3:10)

Yeah. And also I think that implicit in this is, oh, men don't have to learn how to orgasm.

Zander Marin (3:17)

I definitely had to learn how to.

Vanessa Marin (3:19)

Orgasm, but with a partner specifically.

Zander Marin (3:21)

Yeah, yeah, no, no, let me. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. So, like, I definitely had to learn how to orgasm. When I started going through puberty, I was definitely capable of it. Like, I for sure was having wet dreams. I. You know, I could get hard, but it took me a lot of playing around to actually figure out how to actually get there all the way. Because no one ever told me, like, I knew that in general, masturbation was the thing, but no one had ever given me instructions. There was no instruction manual. Like, oh, yeah, do this. Like, use some lube or some lotion. That's going to be a better experience than doing it. Try, you know, keep going until it feels better and better. You know, like, all that kind of stuff. I just kind of had to figure around. Figure that out through trial and error.

Vanessa Marin (4:05)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (4:05)

And once I figured it out, then it was like, oh, okay, yeah, this. This is how you do it. This makes perfect sense. But the thing is, is that what I was doing that pretty well mimics what partnered intercourse is like. And so when I transitioned or graduated or whatever into having. Having sex, having intercourse with. Not myself, with other people, it was pretty. It wasn't really much of a learning process because I was. I'd already trained my body to respond to masturbating in a way that very closely mimicked penetrative sex. But all that to say that it's not like men are just like, boom, born knowing how to orgasm. Like, it was. You know, it's a. It's a process of learning what to do.

Vanessa Marin (4:55)

Yeah. And for. For us women, I think we can feel like we're behind, behind. Or it's harder for us because we typically don't have that same experience of exploring when we're younger. Like, female masturbation is much more heavily discouraged than male masturbation. And so a lot of women just never get that experience. So it feels like we're trying to play catch up as adults. But, yeah, I mean, I want to normalize that. Everybody goes through this and again, it resets with every partner.

Zander Marin (5:21)

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, for me, it was, it was a fumbling, awkward, confusing time. I'm being perfectly honest. I have distinct memories of doing it and being like, like, I, I feel like I'm supposed to be able to do this. But like, what? Like I don't know what to do and then. And kind of like, you know, giving up and okay, all right, I guess I'll try again tomorrow. You know, it's just kind of weird, awkward stuff. I think the thing is, is that that's a period of, you know, for me that was like, I don't know, probably like age 12 or something. And it's like everything at that, in that era of my life was weird and awkward and confusing. So it was just like, okay, cool, one more weird, awkward, confusing thing. I can understand how as an adult it feels different where you, like, I'm supposed to have this shit figured out.

Vanessa Marin (6:05)

Okay. So she continues. In addition, how can I flip my perspective on learning how to owe with a partner? Right now it feels like a whole lot of learning on my own, practicing on my own, and then teaching my partner and praying he can do it. My partner thinks it sounds exciting and hot, but it just feels like yet another thing to add to my to do list and something that I'll have to consistently relearn as my body ages. For reference, I'm a 25 year old female and he's a 23 year old male.

Zander Marin (6:31)

So.

Vanessa Marin (6:31)

Okay, like, I think we addressed the first part of that bit already. Like, it feels like a lot of learning and practicing. Like, yes, it is. And that is the case for everyone. That's just us having to discover our bodies. So I would try to look at it as a process of discovery and like, how freaking cool is it that we can explore our bodies and find new and different and unique ways of making ourselves feel good. And don't our bodies deserve that? Don't they? Don't they deserve our attention and our care and our time and loving touch? Like, I think our bodies are totally deserving of that. So again, it's not. I understand that you might feel like you're behind because you haven't started exploring it until now, but it is a process that everybody has to go to. And then when it comes to the partner, like, listen to your partner. He's saying, this sounds exciting and hot. This is fun to me. I am enjoying doing this with you. I think a lot of us women struggle to allow ourselves to receive that kind of energy from our partners. It's like they're trying to give us this gift, and we're like, no, I don't want it. And I'm not saying that from a shaming place. Like, I have had, you know, similar vibes of struggling with being able to accept that kind of energy too. It. It really does all come down to socialization. The ways that we're taught to feel so ashamed and embarrassed and guilty and, like, something's wrong with us. But truly, like, your partner is saying, this is hot. Like, this is sex. This is not some, like, weird extra thing that you have to do because something's wrong with you. This is sex.

Zander Marin (8:09)

Yeah, this. This is what we're all looking for.

Zander Marin (8:13)

And, yeah, I mean, I. I just want to jump in and say, like, man, I'm. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry to this person that, you know, when you were younger, I'm very likely, like, it was perceived as not okay to masturbate. I'm sorry that you got that message. I'm sorry that you didn't have an opportunity to explore your body as you were sort of coming of age, you know, at a time when it could have been a little bit more natural because you're discovering a lot of things about yourself at that time. I'm sorry that, you know, from. From. I'm reading between the lines here, but I'm. I'm sorry that I'm assuming that you kind of feel like sex isn't really for you. Like, it's. It's. It's for your partner. If you're feeling like, ugh, it's orgasm things is one more thing to learn. Like, then, I mean, there's not that much in it for you if that's the case. And if you are just are. If you're at the point where you're just, like, okay with that in acceptance of, yeah, this just isn't this thing for me. I'm sorry that that's your experience. And I. And yet I understand, like, the way that we socialize people in our. Our culture, society, the way that, you know, the way that certain messages can get perceived. Like, yeah, I totally get why it feels that way. But what I can say is orgasm is worth it. Like, it's. It's really great. And I'm a man. I have far fewer nerve endings than you do. From what I understand, what women in general are capable of experiencing is far above and beyond what I am capable of experiencing, especially one, as a man and two, as a circumcised man, like, I can't even begin to imagine what it is that you are capable of. I get to experience it, you know, secondhand, and it looks pretty awesome. And I guarantee you that it is worth it. And that once you do figure this out, like then all this stuff that you're, all this toiling around that you're doing right now is going to feel like it's way in the past and you're going to be like, oh my God, I cannot believe, I cannot believe that I didn't want this. I felt like this was a chore.

Vanessa Marin (10:30)

Yeah. Okay, let's wrap it up with the last part. Last but not least. What's the point of being intimate if I'm the one who has to touch myself to reach an O? I'm solely focusing on pleasure with this question. I'm aware of the connection based benefits, but I'm not sure that this will make me feel connected if I'm the one who has to do the bulk of the work.

Zander Marin (10:48)

Ooh, the work.

Vanessa Marin (10:50)

I know, right? Like the. Just the words that she chooses in writing. These questions are all interesting.

Zander Marin (10:56)

You, I mean, I. I don't mean this in a negative way, like, but it sounds like you have a. It sounds like you have some work, an opportunity to do some work on your mindset around sex. And understandably so. It sounds like you have been socialized with some really negative ideas about sex, especially how, you know, probably sex is for him and it's not for you.

Zander Marin (11:20)

And I understand where that comes from. I'm sorry that for all the ways we've all contributed to that, but it.

Vanessa Marin (11:27)

Also, like, it doesn't need to be that you're the only person who makes yourself reach an organ. Definitely not your partner. That's. And I'm kind of confused, honestly, because she was saying earlier, like, I'm teaching my partner how to do it. So your partner can get you off with their hands, with their mouth, with a toy. You might be able to find certain sex position, like intercourse positions, if you guys have intercourse that help you get that really important clitoral stimulation or he can touch you during intercourse. So yeah, there are a lot of different ways to orgasm. It doesn't need to be that you're the only person doing it. But at the same time, I do think that when it comes to sex, each of us is responsible for our own orgasm. So I think it's important to us to be generous and giving partners and to, you know, spend time on each other's bodies to stimulate each other to learn what our partner likes and what works for them. But ultimately, I think your orgasm is your responsibility. And I think that's the case for all of us. And I think that there's something very empowering about that, too. About saying, yeah, I'm gonna make sure that I have an orgasm.

Zander Marin (12:37)

Yeah. And I don't think that that doesn't necessarily mean you have to touch yourself. You have to figure it out. You're the only one. You're the only one that has any responsibility for it. But it's like, it is ultimate.

Vanessa Marin (12:48)

You know, it's an energetic thing.

Zander Marin (12:50)

But, you know, let's flip the genders and, like, let's look at me. Like, what that means for me is, like, if Vanessa and I are having sex and say, like, we are in a position, this is a very real example that has come up for us. Let's say that we are in a position. Sometimes we can get in a certain position where there's something that will feel really, really good to Vanessa. And then. And for me to continue doing that, it will start to. I will kind of start to lose some sensation. Right. And like. And eventually be like, you know, first it'll be like, okay, this isn't great anymore. Okay, this is kind of neutral. And then it can be like, oh, I might actually start to lose my erection soon. And we've had challenges with that before because part of me has been like, oh, man, like, this was so good for her. I want to, like, get her all the way there, and then we'll focus on me. But then we've talked about that later, and Vanessa's like, hey, if you're not feeling it in that position, then ask to change positions. So what if that was really good for me? We'll find something else that is also really good for me. Like, we'll get back to where we were. And so it's like, I have to take responsibility for. Hey, you know what? Like, my back hurts a little bit in this position. I'm going to ask that we change or I'm going to move or like, okay, yeah, like, this is, you know, whatever, this speed or something. Like, I'm not going to get there. So I'm going to suggest that we change something up to put myself in a position for success. It's not so. It's like, that's. That's me taking responsibility for my orgasm and my needs in that moment, rather than just being like, well, this kind of sucks for me, but I think that she's gonna come, so I'll just Let her. Yeah, I'll just let her go.

Vanessa Marin (14:27)

But also, like, wouldn't you say during intercourse? Am I making you orgasm during intercourse?

Zander Marin (14:35)

We both are. Like, I mean, I. But yeah, I mean, I am in. I'm trying to be in as much control as I can of that process. But I mean, there's times sometimes where. Where, you know, something happens and you make me come. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a. It's a joint thing, for sure.

Vanessa Marin (14:56)

Yeah, Yeah. I just. Yeah. I encourage you to think of it in. In a different way. That like, yes, we can both pay attention to each other, both stimulate each other, but, like, energetically, it's empowering to think of your orgasm as something that you are creating and you are taking ownership of.

Zander Marin (15:13)

The other thing that I want to say is that, you know, this person is. It sounds like to me they're describing. They are in the process of figuring out maybe even how to have an orgasm for themselves, but definitely how to have an orgasm with their partner. And what they are describing is the right way to go about doing that. Of, hey, you know, I got to figure out how to do it on my own. Then I got to show my partner how that works. And we got to figure out how to kind of integrate that with the sex that we are having. And so I understand that right now when you are not super comfortable and confident with here's. I know exactly what I need to do to get myself there. That one. I get that it feels like work because. Yeah, it is. You are working on learning how to orgasm. I think that once you figure it out, one, it is not gonna feel like work anymore. Cause you're like, oh, yeah, this is this really hot thing that I get to do to get myself to this super pleasurable outcome. So it' not going to feel like work anymore. And I think the other thing is that, yeah, when we are first learning how to make ourselves orgasm and when we are first integrating that to partnered sex, yes, there is going to be this element of, like, okay, we got to, like, follow this kind of more strict process to get there. But once you do get there and you start getting there more consistently, you are going to notice that it starts to open up other possibilities. Like you are going to start being like, oh, interesting. Like, all right, maybe I am starting to have orgasms in other positions rather than just this one that we were in. Or I'm starting to understand, oh, yeah, I can feel pleasure in a lot of different ways. So I think that you're really focused on what do I have to do to have my first orgasm with a partner? And oh, how much work that is. And yeah, that is going to be a bit of work that first time but once you get there, you're going to start having more possibilities and you're going to, it's going to start being quicker and it's going to feel like way less work whether, whether it's you touching yourself, your partner touching you or whatever. So I just want to say that like it's sort of like a, it gets better situation. Like we got to get over that hump. It really is a hump. Like, like, yeah, it's got to climb up to the top of it and then you're going to come down the other side and it's start going to start to be easier. There's going to be more options available to you. I promise.

Vanessa Marin (17:37)

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Vanessa Marin (18:52)

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Zander Marin (19:06)

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Vanessa Marin (20:01)

All right, let's move on. We spent so much time on that one question.

Zander Marin (20:03)

We did, but I think it's a. That's a good one. That's. I think that's something that comes up for a lot of people.

Vanessa Marin (20:08)

Okay, I'm gonna turn this one over to you. My husband stopped initiating because I wasn't interested. How do I repair and where to start?

Zander Marin (20:16)

Ooh, this is. This is a very common situation that we hear about a lot. This is interesting because first of all, the way that this person is writing in the question is kind of like my. My husband stopped because I'm in like. Like I'm in the wrong. How do I fix the situation? I think that this is a. You have equal responsibility in this situation. Like, I don't. We hear from so many men that say this, hey, I got. I got rejected so many times, I just stopped whether they tell their partner that or not.

Zander Marin (20:54)

And I understand that. And I don't think that's cool to just be like, all right, I'm done. I'm not gonna. I'm not ever gonna do it anymore.

Vanessa Marin (21:01)

Yeah, you can't. Sorry, you can't. Well, and this is also why, obviously this is too late for this couple, but this is why we recommend that in all relationships, both partners have to initiate. And it doesn't have to be 50, 50, but both partners have to be willing to do it because initiating is so vulnerable. And it's way too much pressure to put on just one partner's shoulders to be doing all of the initiating. Like, not only are you having to take on all that vulnerability of putting yourself out there and initiating, but you're also having to deal with the rejection. And rejection is a normal part of any couple's sex life. We all have to learn how to handle that rejection. But, yeah, to have it be just one person doing all that work, it's too much. So going forward.

Vanessa Marin (21:51)

Both of you, initiating is going to be the key. I shouldn't have said it's too late. Because you can still do this going forward.

Zander Marin (21:56)

Yeah, I mean, I think that is the way that is. That is where to start the repair. Because I think that the, the tricky thing that happens is like, your, your husband and you are now in this dynamic, I think, where it's sort of like he's put his foot down and said, all right, I'm done. If you want it, you know, you do it. And then it's like, it's like, you know, it's like a seesaw where it's like, okay, well, I was down on the bottom of the sea, fell on, now there's flipping the seesaw. And it's like you can only have like one, you know, one person doing all the work. What your husband could have done alternatively is said, hey, this is really tough. I'm initiating sex a lot and it feels like I'm always getting no's, and that doesn't feel good. I feel, I feel sad that, that I'm getting a lot of no's. It feels, you know, it's hard for me to deal with the rejection. I find myself curious if, like, you want to have sex with me. I don't feel very, like, loved or wanted because of all of that. So I would love to have a conversation with you about what's going on. I would love for us to figure out, is there a way that maybe, you know, if you do want to be having sex with me, like, is there a way for you to communicate that to me? Is there a way for you to show that to me perhaps by initiating sex sometimes versus just, I'm over this. I'm done now. Now you prove it to me.

Vanessa Marin (23:18)

Yeah, Yeah, I agree with you. Like, it's. I understand the husband getting to the point of, like, I'm feeling, you know, I've been so reject that now I don't want to do it anymore. Like, of course we all are going to get to that point if we feel like we're trying, trying, trying and not getting the result that we want. Like, of course we're all going to get fed up. But again, you can't just say, I'm never going to initiate. And I don't know exactly what he said, but we can't just say, like, I'm never going to do it again. So if you're to the partner in this situation, I think that a couple things need to happen. You need to be willing to start initiating on a consistent basis and you need to acknowledge and apologize for the dynamics that, you know, that he's been Doing all the initiating and having to carry all that load. So I would say to him, hey, I, you know, I've been reflecting a lot on our sex life. I'm realizing that you have done all, or, you know, the vast majority, whatever it is, of the initiation. And I'm sorry I didn't realize this before, but I'm realizing now that that must have been really hard for you, and that wasn't fair for me to put you in that situation. I'm sorry for that. And I want you to know that going forward, I am really gonna work on trying to initiate and share with him whatever vulnerabilities or challenges come up. Maybe it's like, I feel so embarrassed. I've never done this before. This is a brand new skill for me to learn. I'm so shy. I'm having to overcome all of this shame and embarrassment I was taught to have. You know, whatever it is, like, you can share that with him and say, but despite all of that, like, I'm still going to try. And I would love for this to be a process for both of us. You know, ultimately, I want. I would love for both of us to feel comfortable initiating with each other and to feel like we can talk about how we initiate openly so we can feel like a team in this.

Zander Marin (25:14)

Yeah, I think it's really important, like you were just saying, to share what your outcome, your desired outcome or desired goal is, that I would love for us to get to a future state where we are both doing this in some amount and, you know, say, hey, maybe it's up for discussion what that. What we want that breakdown to look like. I know now that just having you do it is not smart, it's not effective. It's, you know, gotten us into this situation. I don't ever want to be in that situation again. So, you know, we. We can talk more later or whatever about, like, what that looks like once we start feeling like we're in a better place.

Zander Marin (25:52)

You know, I. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to start initiating with me right now. I'm gonna. I'm gonna take responsibility for my side of the street right now and put a good faith effort into starting to initiate sex with you. I hope that when you see that, then, you know, you're open to start doing this so that we can share that vulnerability and share that Lo and.

Vanessa Marin (26:13)

I would make the space for again. We don't, you know, we're just getting the tiniest little peek at what the story is here. So I don't know how long has this been going on for, but if this is something that's like, been going on for years, I would make the space for it just being you initiating for a little while. That your husband might be just, like, really withdrawn, really trying to protect himself, maybe suspicious that you're actually going to initiate on a consistent basis going forward. So, I mean, obviously, ideally, we'd love. If he could hear that. What I just rehearsed. If he could hear that and be like, great, I love that. I'm gonna initiate too.

Zander Marin (26:52)

Yeah, let's both start doing it.

Vanessa Marin (26:54)

But I wanna be realistic. Likely he's not gonna be on board right away. So I think that a way that you can prove to him, like, look, I really am serious about this, is to allow yourself to be the one who's doing the, you know, all of the initiating for a little while. Maybe it's like a month or something like that. Not forever, but for a brief period of time.

Zander Marin (27:15)

Yeah. I think building on that, it's like understanding that he very well may have developed a good deal of resentment around this. And resentment is a tricky one because while I. While it sounds. It's very understandable where that resentment came from when we have developed a lot of resentment, ultimately, the person feeling the resentment, ultimately. And it is a hard one for a lot of people to hear, ultimately, you are responsible. It is your problem that you are feeling resentment. It is not the person that you are feeling resentment towards. Because what resentment is, is feeling a certain way about something and holding it in and holding it in and holding it in. So resentment is never a presenting emotion. It's never like, oh, you did this. And I immediately feel resent. Resent is, oh, you said. You said no to sex. And I felt hurt, I felt sad, but I'm not gonna say anything. Cause that's not cool. And then a week goes by and I initiate sex again. And you say no and say, oh, man, Now I feel, like, confused and not sure if you're into me or whatever, but I'm not gonna say anything. And it's that over and over and over, suppressing the same emotion or suppressing multiple emotions. And eventually, when we do not allow ourselves to actually feel those things or express those things, they build and build and build and they turn into resentment. So that's why I say, if you're feeling resentment, no one else can fix that for you, but you. You have to be able to let out what all those things were that were bothering you. And so if that's a Sit. If this is a situation where he's sitting, does have a big pile of resentment towards you about that. You could also offer, like, hey, you know, could, you know, might we, like, talk to a therapist about this to try to unpack some of all this? Because I can see now that it wasn't cool that I was saying no all the time or that I was not participating in the initiation at all. I didn't really show you that I was into you sexually at all over this period of time. I imagine that you're feeling a lot of things about that. And I would love to, you know, have a container in therapy to be able to talk about this and unwind this, because I know that just me starting to initiate sex might not be enough to solve that.

Vanessa Marin (29:36)

Okay, let's move on to the next one. What do you do when you and your partner have very different sex styles? Vanilla versus rough.

Zander Marin (29:45)

Good question.

Vanessa Marin (29:46)

So many thoughts about this one. I will say I think sometimes putting labels like this can actually be pretty harmful and can make it feel like you guys are on very different pages. Like, when I. When I read this, like, vanilla versus rough, my brain went to how different. If we take all the different, like, sexual acts that you guys are each into, I bet that there's a lot more overlap than you might. Than it might seem like. Because when you hear vanilla versus rough, that sounds like a black or white, like, you know, on total different ends of the spectrum.

Zander Marin (30:22)

Well, it sounds like possibly because they've just said rough rather than some kind of, like, specific kink or some specific act. I'm guessing you are probably into most or if not all of the same acts and. Or positions. It's just about the pace, like the.

Vanessa Marin (30:38)

Speed or the vibe, the energy. Yeah. So I think I would. I would try to look at, you know, what are the similarities that we have, rather than focusing so much on the differences. Then I would take a look at the specific behaviors or, like, desires that are outside of the bounds of comfort. So it. It sounds like in this specific case, we've got someone who's more vanilla versus somebody who likes things a little bit rougher. So I think the vanilla person probably is going to need to examine the specific rough acts that their partner likes, and I would try to see if there's any nuance or gray area to that. So, again, rather than just like, lumping it all into, oh, you like it too rough for me, are there certain things that you could be into? So maybe it's, hey, I'm not into being slapped across the face, but actually a little ass spanking. I'm okay with that. Or it's, you know, I don't want my partner choking me, but I'm okay with them talking dirty and maybe calling.

Zander Marin (31:44)

Me some names or, like, tying my hands up.

Vanessa Marin (31:46)

Yeah. Or maybe it's, I don't want to be tied up, but I'm okay with my partner having like a more like, faster, animalistic pace, you know, something like that. So I'd really try to look at this, get more into the specifics of what are you open to and are there certain.

Vanessa Marin (32:04)

Yeah, gray areas in there. So maybe it's again, like, I don't want to be slapped hard, but if it's like a little, you know, a little thing, just a little slap, I'm okay with that. So I would look at it more on, like, a behavior by behavior basis. I also think, what if you're the person?

Zander Marin (32:23)

What if you're. Because you just said, if you're the more vanilla person, here's what you need to do. But what about the more rough person?

Vanessa Marin (32:29)

I mean, I'm guessing that the rough person, there's not anything that's outside of their comfort zone that the vanilla person wants to have, but it's just, you know, maybe for the rough person, it's not, like, as exciting.

Zander Marin (32:41)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (32:41)

So you could still look at, again, like, look at the similarities between the two of you. Of, hey, we both like this. We both want to do that. This.

Zander Marin (32:47)

Well, what about also for the rough person? Like, my first question would probably be, you know, okay, so, like, tell me about your preferences for roughness. Like, I would want to know. Okay, well, what is it, like, what constitutes kind of like your ideal sexual experience in terms of pace or energy or acts? And then also, like, I would then want to understand. Okay, does this feel like for you, the sex has to be like that in order for you to get satisfaction out of it or to get to orgasm or whatever? Or is this like. Is this more of a. Like a scene that I like to play out? And I, you know, I'm. I could be fulfilled doing that every month or every week, you know, occasionally. Because I think that a lot of people see, oh, my God, my partner wants to do it really rough. They must want it rough all the time. And if you talk to them, it's like, no, actually, it's actually kind of exhausting. You know, that's actually kind of exhausting. I don't want to do that every time. I just want to do that sometimes.

Vanessa Marin (33:47)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (33:48)

So I Would definitely want to know what is this? Is this approaching more of almost like a kink territory where it's like I can't really, I don't get the full enjoyment out of this act unless we are doing specific things a specific way. Or is this a preference or fantasy where it's like, oh yeah, no, like I love vanilla sex. I also just want to occasionally have some rougher sex.

Vanessa Marin (34:12)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (34:13)

And I think that's really important to get to. I think a lot of us, when we don't, we don't talk really clearly like that, we start to make these assumptions that, oh, my partner said they wanted to do it rough this one time. That's my. That must be what they all. That's. Oh my God, that sounds crazy. That must be what they always want.

Vanessa Marin (34:30)

Uh huh. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's definitely an issue of like the frequency here. How frequently do you actually want to do this? I also want to normalize that. Every couple is going to have mismatches in their desires. We're so afraid of sexual incompatibility. I think a lot of us kind of go to this extreme of, oh my God, well, I'm not into that, but he is. Or she wants to do this, but I don't want to. And the reality is that's just gonna happen. And it's the same with things outside of the bedroom too. You might not like the same hobbies, you might not like the same foods, you might not want to travel to the same places. Like that's just being human. Is that we're not going to find somebody who's this perfect 100% match for us. Now of course the issue is the degree of it. So in some situations it might be something like, hey, yeah, you know, my ideal would be to have rough sex every single time. But you know what, Even though I'm a little sad about that and it's not my ideal, like I'm okay with it being once a month or I'm okay with doing these acts, but not these ones. Or I'm okay with my partner kind of, you know, playing along with it but not really being that into it themselves. So there might be some couples who fall into that group. And then I do also want to be realistic and say there are going to be couples where the degree is just too big. Like there are definitely couples where, you know, if one person just want, I just want quiet missionary, couple of minutes in and out and we're done, versus somebody who wants like, you know, really rough, intense playing with pain and sensation and all that, like, you genuinely might not be compatible. So if the degree is really intense and it just feels like neither one of you can have a satisfying sexual experience with each other, then, you know, I do think that ultimately, like, having extreme incompatibilities is something worth breaking up over. Like, sex is not just a physical act. It's a way that we express ourselves. It's a way that we play. It's, you know, it's. It's so much more than just putting body parts and body parts. So if both or even just one of you feels like I can't have, like, my full sexual expression in this relationship, I do think that is worth ending a relationship over.

Zander Marin (36:48)

Yeah, I mean, this is. This is exactly why we recommend starting to talk about sex very early on in a relationship. I think this is the unfortunate mistake that so many couples make. Whether it's like, I mean, there's like, not really talking about the sex that you are having, Then there's the added element of talking very honestly and openly about. These are the types of things that. That, you know, sexually that are really important to me, like things that I want to try or experiences that I know I want to have or kinks that I have or whatever. And I think a lot of us, we're really scared. I understand why. But we're really scared to raise these things, Especially if it is approaching more of a kink territory. We can feel, like, really ashamed that we have this thing that maybe makes sex feel more complicated for us, or we feel like we're a bit extra. And I think that, you know, we unfortunately are disincentivized to talk about that. From early on, it's like, oh, my God, I don't want to get rejected. So if I wait longer to work closer and closer or more committed, then, like, my partner can't reject me. But then you get into a situation where it's like you. Then you reach the stalemate later on where it's like, hey, well, we've been having sex a certain way, and it seemed like everything is cool. And now you're telling me that actually you want all this other stuff. Stuff. So, I mean, ideally talking about it early, the. What is the worst thing that can happen? Well, the worst thing that can happen is the part person that you're starting to date says, you know what? That's just not for me. Like, let's go our separate ways. And then you've gone your separate ways before things got too serious. It's way worse to get into this much more serious situation and you think things are a certain way and then all of a sudden you discover, oh, that's not gonna work for my partner and you have to break up at that point. That's so much worse. Mm. Mm. So at this point, I think it is, you know, you gotta kind of have a, a getting down to it conversation about what does this really look like? How compatible can we actually be with how much the vanilla person is comfortable going into the rougher territory and then how often or how, how serious the rougher person is about it needing to be a certain way and then both people being really honest with, hey, you know, like, I am not going to be able to do more than xyz.

Vanessa Marin (39:02)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (39:03)

Is that going to be okay with you? Like if we, if we have to go further than that, I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm not okay signing up for that. Like, that's just not gonna happen. So either we have to both be in acceptance that we're not really gonna have sex in our relationship or we're gonna have to break up. And I think there's just a lot of honesty that has to happen.

Vanessa Marin (39:25)

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Vanessa Marin (41:58)

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Zander Marin (42:07)

All right, Vanessa, is there a correlation with desire and menstrual phase?

Vanessa Marin (42:14)

Okay, so there can be because throughout our menstrual cycle, our hormone levels dip and shift. But if you've heard me talk about libido before, you know that, that I think hormones play a relatively small role in libido for the average person. There are definitely some people who have straight up have a hormonal issue and once you resolve that, like your libido can come back. But I do think we have this tendency to blame all libido issues on hormones. So I just, yeah, I like to always give that caveat that yes, of course, like our hormones are important. They affect everything going on in our body. Libido includes, included. But libido is so much more complex than just our hormones. So walking through the stages of the menstrual cycle, so the first, you know, one to five, six, seven days, that's our actual menstrual phase. It's when you're having our period. For some women, you can have low libido at this time. Like you might be, you know, a lot of us are experiencing PMS symptoms. Being on your period itself can be unpleasant. That being said, though, and also I have to give the caveat that everybody's different. So like, you know, you might be in one stage that typically your libido is lower for the average woman, but you're like, mine's way higher. So everybody's, everybody's unique and different. So Menstrual phase can be lower libido overall for some people. That being said, though, I will say there are tremendous benefits. Benefits to having sex during your period. I think so many people think of it as like, oh, I'm just on my period. Sex is completely off the table and you get to decide what you want to do with your own body. But there are great benefits to having sex on your period. Sex can improve your mood, it can decrease the side effects that you might have from your period. So if you have a headache, it can relieve your headache, they can relieve menstrual cramps, it can help you get to sleep faster and sleep better. So there are a lot of reasons to have sex on your period. And also there are ways to make period sex easier too. You can have it in the shower. You can put down a dark towel. You can use a menstrual disc, so your partner wouldn't even know that you're on your period. So I'm a big fan of period sex. We both are. So even if you don't have the highest libido, you still might have some great reasons to have some period sex. Okay. The next phase that we go into is the follicular phase. And that can be like around days 6 to 13 ish. It tends to be about a week. You might experience an increase in desire around this time. Most women tend to feel pretty good. We feel maybe a little bit more confident, a little flirtier, higher energy. So that can be a higher libido time. Then we get into the ovulatory phase, which typically just lasts a couple of days. And this tends to be peak libido. So this is when you're most likely to be. To get pregnant. So our system is like, let's go, let's make a baby. You know, we're trying to, to go for that reproduction. So a lot of women will say that this phase is when they feel the most excited, the most easily aroused. And then the luteal phase is our fourth and final phase. And this can be a long one, like days 16 to 28 or, you know, however long your cycle is. So it can be like a couple weeks.

Zander Marin (45:44)

That's interesting. Actually, I never. I just assumed when I've. Whenever I've seen all this like, menstrual phase content on social. I kind of assumed it was like phases of the moon, where it's like more equal, equal parts each, but I'm like, wait a second, that is literally 50 of. It is like we're talking about the menstrual phase is. Yeah, five days, then seven days and two days for ovulatory.

Vanessa Marin (46:11)

Like, I mean, it really can depend from woman to woman. But, yeah, the luteal phase can be quite long, for sure. Sure. Okay, so during the luteal phase, you can start to feel desire tapering off. And, you know, closer to the end of it, it might feel like your libido is pretty low again. So up peaks, up goes back down, back up, back down. But again, just one small part of the overall picture.

Zander Marin (46:39)

All right, well, then let's move on. Is it normal to get swollen down there after sex? Not just the clit, but the labia, too?

Vanessa Marin (46:45)

Yes.

Vanessa Marin (46:47)

Why the whole area? It's normal for it to get swollen.

Zander Marin (46:52)

Is that like blood flow?

Vanessa Marin (46:53)

I mean, a couple of reasons. Yeah. Blood flow. When you get aroused and turned on, like, blood flows to the area. Same with people with penises. That's what makes an erection, is increased blood flow. So.

Zander Marin (47:03)

But that goes away.

Vanessa Marin (47:03)

You're literally getting, like, swollen. Yeah, it does go away. Just, like, the swelling can go away, but, like, right afterwards, you know, you might notice more swelling. Swelling, but also if you're having any sort of intercourse or penetration, like, you're thumping against those tissues.

Zander Marin (47:20)

Yeah. Whether it's rough or not, there is some amount of roughness happening to tissue.

Vanessa Marin (47:27)

And you can, you know, a lot of intercourse can cause, like, tiny micro tears in, you know, the tissues of the vagina. The labia are pretty delicate and can be susceptible to that. So that can naturally cause. Cause some swelling as well.

Zander Marin (47:40)

Okay. So, yeah. Yeah, that's not. That sounds scary. But I'm guessing micro tears are really nothing serious. Little teeny tiny. It's just.

Vanessa Marin (47:47)

It's.

Zander Marin (47:47)

But it's that sense your body's, like, healing, all the healing stuff there, which causes, like, inflammation.

Vanessa Marin (47:54)

Because inflammation, vagina does a good job of taking care of itself. Yeah, it does. So, of course, like, if you are in pain, if you're bleeding, if it's like, an extreme swelling, of course. Always see a doctor if you're worried. But if you're just, like, looking down there, like, whoa, looks a little bigger.

Zander Marin (48:11)

Than little half chub. Female half chub. Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (48:15)

That is very normal. Okay, Xander, how can me and my partner finish at the same time?

Zander Marin (48:23)

With a lot of practice, I. A lot of practice and a lot of reps. Um, this is generally something that we do not recommend that you go for unless it feels really, really important to you. Or at the very least, it's not something that you go for until or Unless you are really committed to first figuring out.

Zander Marin (48:50)

Her orgasmic timing for the most part. Unless. Unless. Unless. Or. Sorry, let me put it this way. Usually I say her orgasmic timing because typically in most male female relationships, the guy can come a lot faster than. Than the woman can. Typically. If, you know, if you were just to, say, have at it. But if it's the other way around, I guess. Well, what I would say is unless you're really committed to. To kind of allowing the person that takes the longest to reach orgasm to let them get to orgasm first. Because basically that is going to set the bar for what it is that you are shooting for, for the other person needing to be like, okay, I need to be able to. I need to be able to get myself to make myself last as long as it takes to get this other partner there. And so you have to get really, really comfortable with, okay, what, what specific activities, what specific positions, what specific vibe or, you know, pressure, speed, whatever. What is it going to take to get them to that point reliably? Can we get to a point where we are able to. Oh, okay, cool. Like, once we kind of reach past this point, it's like, usually takes about 30 seconds or a minute here so that I can catch up or whatever. So I. I think that it requires some. Some real commitment to. We're really gonna. We're really going to kind of have one partner hold themselves off to allow the other partner to catch up. Because I think that this is something that people think, oh, this sounds really sexy. And this is how it is supposed to be. Be.

Zander Marin (50:31)

And it's that it's not something that just happens naturally. It's not something where it's just like, oh, okay, yeah, if you do this one technique, then all of a sudden you're gonna come together. Yeah, it's like, no, it takes. It takes a lot of work. And especially it gets tricky if you're saying, I want it to happen during intercourse. Because the problem with intercourse is the partner with the penis, once they come, they can't really continue the intercourse where most men can't. Can't. Right. Like, you get into the refractory period, your penis goes soft. Like, you're not gonna be able to. You're physically not gonna be able to keep going. And also, like, like, psychologically, you're not really gonna want to keep going. So it's basically like if we are okay with one partner maybe kind of needing to, like, think about other things so that they are not getting overly stimulated and knowing, okay, there's gonna be a period where maybe it's actually not that enjoyable for one person for a while, or it's maybe a little torturous for one person for a while and you're really committed to that, then have at it. For sure.

Vanessa Marin (51:30)

Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to recognize we, most of us want the simultaneous orgasm because that's what we see on TV and the movies. Like, everybody always comes at the exact same time. And it looks so effortless and easy. And we're led to believe that's like the peak experience. And I'm not denying, like, it definitely is fun to have an orgasm at the same time, but it can also be distracting. You know, like, sometimes it's nicer to be able to just purely focus on your orgasm than purely focus on your partners.

Zander Marin (51:59)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (52:00)

And, you know, having an orgasm at the same time, like, it's not inherently better than having them at separate times. So I, Yeah, I encourage people to recognize, like, it's. It's an orga. An orgasm is an orgasm. But if this is something that you want to experience, yes, it definitely can be fun. It just takes. Takes a lot of communication and figuring out, you know, exactly what each other needs, how to line that up. And even in the moment itself, a lot of like, you know, you gotta slow down a little bit, you gotta speed up a little bit. So it can be challenging. But communication, communication, communication.

Zander Marin (52:35)

Yep. I guarantee you it will not happen if you are not willing to talk about it. All right, Vanessa, is it normal to feel slightly uninterested after having an orgasm from a vagina owner?

Vanessa Marin (52:47)

Yes, it is. And that is the case for people of all genders for us to feel that disinterest. So typically, a couple of things are happening, and a lot of this can actually come down to hormones. So after orgasm, our bodies release prolactin and that suppresses sexual desire. So it just naturally kind of sends us into a state of relaxation, kind of cooling down. Not as interesting. Oxytocin and serotonin can both increase, which are great for feeling like, calm bonding with each other again. It's just kind of like post sex, cuddly types of vibes. And also dopamine can dip right after orgasm too, which it can be tied to our motivations to have sex.

Zander Marin (53:34)

It's like, oh, I already had the reward.

Vanessa Marin (53:35)

Yeah, I had the reward. I'm done. I'm good. So that's very normal for, again, people of all genders can experience that. So. So if you are somebody who that happens to.

Vanessa Marin (53:48)

Sometimes we get asked this question because it's like, well, my partner comes and then he's like, well, I'm done. So we do have to be thoughtful, of course, about our partners and make sure that everybody gets to have a good experience. So if, you know, if you're naturally somebody who has. It does tend to be that men feel this more strongly than women do.

Zander Marin (54:08)

Because there's also also a physical component of it to men of like, oh, I've lost the erection. I cannot, like, I can't keep going. It won't stay inside of you anymore.

Vanessa Marin (54:17)

Yeah. So if you're, regardless of gender, if you tend to have a stronger response than your partner does, of course, just like make sure your partner has an orgasm before you do so that it's okay for you to be not in the mood afterwards.

Zander Marin (54:32)

But also I think addressing the other side of this is I think that it is normal for women to wonder if something is wrong with them if they are finding themselves uninterested after orgasm. Because I think that we hear a lot about, oh, how women can be multi orgasmic. And I think you hear a lot of men see this in porn and are like, oh, I want to give you like five orgasms. And while that is, while it is much more possible for women to do that than men because of, you know, women don't necessarily have that physical response afterwards of like, oh, but you know, it's not like, oh, your vagina doesn't disappear after you've had an orgasm. Right. Like, it's still there, it's still physically capable of continuing. Your clit is still capable of being stimulated. Um, I think that yes, many women do find that they also lose some amount of interest. They're not like super motivated to go for more. I know you also have had the experience of like, you know, I, I, I've been there. I've pushed Vanessa early on in our relationship to have multiple orgasms. She can. And eventually she finally told me, hey, my experience is that the first one you gave me is really, really good. And then they get smaller and smaller after that. And I actually end up feeling better if we end on a high note than ending on a kind of like, oh, like, I thought that was gonna be better than it was. Right. Like that ends up kind of feeling a bit disappointing versus, you know, it's like, I'd rather that we just both have as big of an orgasm as possible and then we lie there and enjoy each other rather than like pushing for something that is has diminishing returns.

Vanessa Marin (56:12)

Absolutely. Okay. Xander, take us home with this last question. Can men feel with their peen?

Zander Marin (56:22)

I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a peen, so I'm not sure I can answer that question.

Vanessa Marin (56:26)

The word peen cracks me up so much.

Zander Marin (56:29)

I do love that.

Vanessa Marin (56:31)

Can men feel with their peen when their female partners. Oh, when they're inside.

Zander Marin (56:36)

Well, first of all, actually, since Instagram it, like, we got in so much trouble whenever we use certain sexual words. I wonder if we could start using the word peen instead. Or you do like pae at. Or there's like some other kind of like, old English word. I feel like that is similar. No, not. No, not that one. But. But, yeah, no, we should start using.

Vanessa Marin (57:00)

Can your peen tell when I'm having an orgasm?

Zander Marin (57:05)

You know what? I can't really. I know a lot of men say that they can. They feel muscle contractions. I think that that is when women are faking orgasm. They are very often wanting to try to make it as convincing as possible. And yes, every now and then, I do feel some muscle contraction. Honestly, usually it's more afterwards. So it's like if. If we have a simultaneous orgasm and then we have. And then we're, you know, stopped and I'm still inside of you and I'm still a bit. A bit hard. Yes. Then sometimes I will feel a little bit of muscle contraction. But honestly, it's not always. Yeah, it's actually not very often.

Vanessa Marin (57:44)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (57:45)

That I feel that. And if I was still. If I was still, like, pumping away, I would definitely not be able to.

Vanessa Marin (57:52)

Feel that pumping away.

Zander Marin (57:53)

Now, what I do know is that I do know that you can squeeze like you can like a kegel. I can certainly feel that. But the thing is, is that you don't involuntarily do that when you orgasm. Do other. Is that like just you or, like, do some women.

Vanessa Marin (58:08)

I'm. I'm having involuntary muscle contractions when I orgasm.

Zander Marin (58:11)

Yeah. But it's not like you can do a keg. You can squeeze me pretty hard if you want to.

Vanessa Marin (58:15)

A kegel is. It's the same mechanism. It's a muscle contraction. A Kegel, as you're doing it purposefully versus involuntarily when you're orgasming. So, like.

Zander Marin (58:23)

But for you, you can do it. You can. You can voluntarily do it much harder than what you involuntarily do during an orgasm. I think.

Vanessa Marin (58:31)

Yes.

Zander Marin (58:32)

Because if you. If we're having sex and I say to squeeze, I can really Feel you squeeze me. Yeah, I've never had that experience when you're orgasming.

Vanessa Marin (58:41)

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Zander Marin (58:42)

Or you're just doing a really bad job faking.

Vanessa Marin (58:46)

I think that a lot of people get this idea from spicy novels. There's been a lot of on. On either ends of it in a male, female relationship of like, oh, I could. You. She could feel him pulsing within her and like, oh, he could feel her pulsing, whatever. So like, yeah, sometimes you can feel it, but it's pretty subtle in general. Like, sometimes I can feel you pulsing, but typically not. And also we do hear from a lot of men of like, oh yeah, I totally felt that. You know, and it's like, you can.

Zander Marin (59:17)

I feel a lot of men are search or like desperately searching for and they're like, oh, yeah, that was it.

Vanessa Marin (59:23)

That's.

Zander Marin (59:23)

That was it.

Vanessa Marin (59:24)

I hate your creepy. Your guy voice can be so creepy sometimes. But yeah, no, like when I was faking orgasms earlier in my sex life, like that was a part of the whole show was like doing the contractions. Yeah. And he was like, oh, it was so strong. I'm like, yeah, it was so good.

Zander Marin (59:43)

So. Yeah. So you were contributing. Yeah, so you were contributing to the, the misinformation out there that it's so obvious. I mean, so literally, like, this is where that idea comes from. I'm not trying to blame you. You. But just like. Yeah. Know that most women can squeeze a lot harder than they normally involuntarily squeeze when they are orgasming. And so a lot of people have had the experience. Oh yeah. When. When she comes, you can tell. Cuz she's going to squeeze real hard.

Vanessa Marin (60:12)

Yeah.

Zander Marin (60:13)

So yeah, and maybe you do. Maybe if. Maybe you really do. And so I'm sure some people do. I personally, in my sexual experience have not ever had the experience of someone one where like, I can like wildly. Oh my God, I can feel that something is happening.

Vanessa Marin (60:31)

All right, well, that brings us to the end of our questions for today. That is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.