E239: Breaking Down A Real-Life Text Fight (pt. 3)

Summary

Pillow Talks, Ep. 239: Breaking Down a Real-Life Text Fight (Part 3)
Vanessa & Xander Marin | QCODE
Released December 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this highly relatable and insightful episode, Vanessa and Xander Marin dissect a real-life text fight submitted by an anonymous couple from their community. As a sex therapist and her “regular dude” co-host husband, they offer expert, honest, and practical commentary on the communication dynamics, misunderstandings, and emotional subtext behind every turn in the fight. Their aim is to help listeners reflect on their own patterns, see opportunities for growth, and reinforce that “we’ve all been there” when it comes to relationships and communication pitfalls.

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Key Segments & Insights

Why Break Down Text Fights?

(01:12–03:55)

• Vanessa: Real examples are more impactful than generic “10 communication tips.” When you have the actual receipts, “there’s no sugarcoating it.”
• Xander: After-the-fact memories are faulty; transcripts capture raw, unfiltered reality.
• The hosts acknowledge they don’t recommend text fighting and in-person is best, but text is great for analysis (“if you want us to break it down, I would recommend doing it over text”—03:15).

Setting the Tone: Vulnerability and Empathy

(04:41–05:28)

• Vanessa asks listeners for empathy and grace for the couple, reminding everyone, “Yeah, yeah, you would [do the same thing]. We all do. None of us are perfect communicators.”

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The Text Fight Play-by-Play

The Initial Apology

(08:46)

• She: “I’m sorry I annoyed you last night. I was in a goofy mood and I thought with you egging me on, you were too. And I misread the situation.”
• Vanessa: “Great example of an apology… gives context, not excuses. She’s fully taking responsibility.” (09:13)

His Response: Acceptance, But…

(10:07)

• He: “It’s fine. I didn’t mean to react so poorly, but I really thought by saying what I said, that it meant, please don’t pour water on me. But I get you were being playful, and I’m not mad about that.”
• Vanessa: “I don’t love when people say ‘it’s fine’ in response to an apology.” (10:07)
• Xander: He likes her being playful, but “this was perhaps too playful” (10:37)

Escalation: Could Have Fooled Me

(10:55)

• She: “Could have fooled me. You seemed pissed going to bed.”
• Xander: “This could have been avoided if instead of ‘it’s fine’ he said, ‘Thank you for apologizing … I was upset.’” (11:01)
• Vanessa wonders, “What were you trying to get?” by replying that way. (11:41)

Layering Issues: Physical Neglect & Sexual Disconnect

(12:16)

• He brings up feeling “physically neglected and not sexually desired.”
• Xander: “It’s sort of a pile on … he got annoyed last night because she was goofy and poured water on him, and he was wanting a more sexy mindset.” (13:26)
• Vanessa critiques the word “neglected”: “It implies it’s her responsibility … if someone says, ‘I’ve been missing you lately,’ that has a totally different vibe.” (14:14)

Mismatched Initiation Styles

(14:42)

• She clarifies: “It’s not that I didn’t want to. I just didn’t want to immediately because it’s harder for me to get turned on and finish if it’s abrupt like that … I apologize for not making that clear.”
• Xander: “All you needed to say is, ‘Hey, let’s sit on the couch and cuddle and touch each other…’ That would have been super sexy.” (15:10)
• Vanessa: “For most women, it takes time to warm up. It feels embarrassing to ask but the way you phrased it was so nice.” (15:53)

Memorable Exchange

• Xander: “You know it takes a couple seconds of fumbling and I’m ready to go.” (16:17)
• Vanessa, laughing: “Fumbling, wow.” (16:43)

Missing Each Other’s Cues

(18:33)

• Vanessa: “Both of these people want to be having sex with each other. They both left feeling like the other person didn’t.”
• Emphasizes how prevalent misunderstandings are around sex and initiation.

Practical Tips: Sex Before TV!

(21:48–23:52)

• He explains his timeline and tiredness; Vanessa highlights the classic mistake couples make: “We save sex till the end of the night. One of our tips: prioritize sex as early in the evening as possible. Variation of ‘fuck first.’”
• Xander: “Have sex first to beat the time distortion. You’ll get everything done faster after!” (23:10)

Hints vs. Directness

(24:21)

• Vanessa: “Women have the tendency to hint at things. Men don’t get hints. Hints either get missed or just aren’t clear enough.”
• Both agree clear, direct communication is best—like having a “foreplay show” as a cue.

Love Languages & Entitlement

(28:19–32:17)

• He: “One of my love languages is physical touch. If I’m not receiving affirmation in that way, I’m gonna tell you…”
• Vanessa: “People latch onto, ‘that’s my love language, so I deserve that.’ No, you can’t demand it anytime you want.” (29:34)
• Xander: “You’re missing the curiosity part. There’s a difference between loving enchiladas and needing them three meals a day.” (30:17)

Ownership, Low Desire, & Foreplay Needs

(33:41–36:40)

• She: Admits to “low libido”, offers to “initiate more”, requests more foreplay: “I need more help with foreplay and getting me into the mood physically, or else that’s when it can feel more like work.”
• Vanessa, insightfully: “I don’t think she has a low libido. I think the sex isn’t pleasurable for her. Why crave something that’s not enjoyable?” (35:29)

Intent vs. Impact

(53:14)

• Vanessa: “Intent versus impact is one of the hardest things to grapple with in relationships … all you want to do is be like, ‘Yes, I was!’ It takes so much skill to say, ‘I’m sorry, that’s your experience. Here’s what my intention was.’”

Final De-escalation and Resolution

(55:32–59:47)

• He: “That’s fair. I’m not trying to be defensive. I’m sorry. I will try to try harder to be more interested in things you’re doing.” (55:32)
• Vanessa: “A plus, my dude … he’s validating, apologizing, and committing to do better.”

Getting Specific & Closing the Loop

(58:38)

• Vanessa highlights the need for specificity: “We make vague requests like, ‘Be more interested.’ So she gives him specific questions to ask.”
• He acknowledges her points, but points out he doesn’t “talk about himself as much,” and says, “Me asking questions is something I will work on.” (59:47)

Memorable Quotes

• “It’s fine.” — (He, 10:07)
  Vanessa: “I would say, thank you for the apology.”

• “Both of these people want to be having sex with each other. They both left feeling like the other person didn’t.” — Vanessa (18:41)

• “It’s a constant want and need with me.” — (He, 29:34)

• “You’re missing the curiosity part of things … wonder what is coming up for me where it just feels like this constant need, like this hole I can’t fill up.” — Xander (30:17)

• “I don’t have a response right now and need to focus on getting stuff done. I will respond later.” — (She, 33:33) Vanessa: “It’s okay to put a pause in conversations to take time to think.”

• “Don’t say that you want me to tell you when I don’t feel satisfied in an area of our relationship and then immediately tell me my feelings are wrong when I do.” — (She, 51:19) Vanessa: “She’s spot on.”

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Communication Lessons & Relationship Tips

1. Acknowledge Real Apologies
Say “thank you for your apology,” not “it’s fine.” Acknowledge the effort and close the loop.

2. Watch Out for “But…”
Using “but” after an apology negates it; strive for validation before sharing your own perspective.

3. Be Direct, Not Hints
Hints are missed—especially in moments involving sex or emotional need. Clear and unambiguous communication always wins.

4. Address One Issue at a Time
When emotions are charged, avoid piling on other complaints. Resolve one issue before bringing up another (47:15).

5. “Intent vs. Impact” is Everything
Clarify your intentions, but also acknowledge your partner’s lived experience—even if it doesn’t match your perception.

6. Specificity Wins
Vague requests (“be more interested”) are hard to enact. Give specific actions or questions to help your partner meet your needs.

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:12: Introducing why breaking down a real text fight is impactful
• 08:46: The wife’s apology and the start of the fight breakdown
• 10:07: The husband’s “it’s fine” apology response
• 12:16: He raises feelings of “physical neglect” and sexual disconnect
• 14:42: She requests more foreplay and clarity in initiation
• 18:33: Both want sex but miss each other’s cues
• 21:48: The “fuck first” tip—prioritizing sex earlier in the evening
• 24:21: On hinting vs. being direct (selecting a “foreplay show”)
• 28:19: Love languages and the entitlement issue
• 35:29: Vanessa’s insight on her “low libido” versus lack of pleasure
• 53:14: Deep dive on intent vs. impact
• 55:32: Resolution—he apologizes, validates, and commits to do better

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode maintains Vanessa and Xander’s trademark blend of humor, candor, and non-judgmental expertise. They balance critique and affirmation, modeling empathy for both parties. Listeners are gently but honestly encouraged to reflect on their own tendencies, defensiveness, and communication styles, leaving with practical, actionable insights for their relationships.

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Bottom Line:
Even well-intentioned couples misfire in text-based conflicts, especially around sex and intimacy. Direct communication, specific requests, patience, and active empathy can turn these moments of rupture into opportunities for deeper connection—sometimes even with a little laughter along the way.

Transcript

[A]

I do. Like, at the end, he's saying that, I get that you were being playful, and I'm not mad at that because I think that that's actually important. He's saying to her that, I don't want you to stop being playful. I like you being playful. It's just that this was perhaps too playful.

[B]

Okay, so she says, could have fooled me. You seemed pissed going to bed. We took a hard turn already. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talk Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[A]

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[B]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are doing part three of one of my favorite series that we've ever done on the podcast. It's called Breaking Down a Text Fight.

[A]

Text fights are great. They're not great when you're having them, but they are great for us to be able to dig into and talk about what went wrong, all the communication stuff, and, and it's really a great insight into another couple's relationship. Also, I think it makes all of us feel really seen because we're like, yep, we've been there. I can see myself in so many parts of this text fight.

[B]

Yeah. So what we did is we turned to our Instagram community and we said, if you've had, like, recently had a fight with your partner over text, send us the screenshots. And I think there are so many different reasons why this works. The first one is like, you know, we could do an episode with 10 communication tips. Like tip number one, don't say never and always. And like, yeah, you could gain a few tips. But I just think when you have a real world example in front of you, it makes that learning so much more tangible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you absorb it so much better.

[A]

And it's way more tangible than asking a couple after the fact. Hey, describe a bad fight that you've had. Even if, even if you get both partners perspectives, it's like, it's a hindsight perspective. And, you know, both partners are like, you know, they're bringing in whatever they learned coming out of it and like, oh, yeah, you know, trying to put a kind of positive spin on it. And the reality is none of us really remember the gory details of what actually happened in the middle of the fight. We remember. Okay, yeah, that was rough. This is generally what happened or what I think did or didn't happen. And then here's how we, you know, came back together, or here's how we made up and here's what we learned from it. But when you get the text fight, it's like the receipts are there. There's no. There's no sugarcoating it. Like, there's no, like, oh, let me go in and edit this tag so I don't sound so annoying.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. That's what I was going to say was the second reason. It's like, you're not relying on people's memories, which are super faulty. You have exactly what happens and what was said. So, in general, we do not recommend having fights over text. Like, we definitely recommend to communicate in person.

[A]

But if you want us to break it down, I would recommend doing it over text.

[B]

It is very useful for us to break down, but, you know, yeah, sometimes maybe you're long distance or whatever stuff happens. None of us are perfect communicators. So it is nice. Nice to have exactly in front of us, like, what happened between this couple. So with this specific episode, I gotta say, we. So we did one of these episodes probably a couple of years ago, and at the time we got submissions and there were so many good ones that we saved them to do for future episodes. So I did read this one at some point in time, but I've completely forgotten it.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I told Xander not to read it, so we're both going to be pretty fresh, so we'll be able to just give you our first impressions, our in the moment, you know, reactions to it. So I think it'll be more fun to do it live like that.

[A]

Yeah, honestly, it's better this way. Because the reality with a text fight is you. You don't get a text knowing what is going to happen, like, 10 texts down the road. So it's like, it's. It's better for us to talk about it, you know, text by text, because otherwise if we read the entire thing and then we're like, oh, then. Then we know. Oh, well, here's what you really should have done in text two. Knowing what happens in text 20. Right. Like, but yeah, no, this is like. I mean, this is just so real because it's like, this is what it's like in the trenches as it's happening. Like, oh, my God, what is happening? Why are we in this argument. Yeah.

[B]

Also, I want to give props to this couple for being willing to share their dirty laundry. Even though it's anonymous, like, it still is vulnerable to send something like this in and to allow it to be a learning experience for all of us. So it's really easy to look at other people's communication and bad behaviors and not so great things that they said and make snap judgments of it and say, like, oh, my God, I can't believe they said it that way.

[A]

I would never do that. Yeah, yeah, you would.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you would. We all do. So I want to. I want to appreciate them for being vulnerable. I want to ask for empathy for this couple and just recognition that, hey, we all do stuff like this sometimes. None of us are perfect communicators.

[A]

Yeah. Try to see yourself in this. Whether.

[B]

Let's give them a little grace.

[A]

Past or present or future. Potential future.

[B]

Okay. And if you start listening to us breaking this down and start thinking, oh, my God, this is hitting a little too close to home. Or maybe we do some of those things triggering or just you're feeling like you and your partner. Things are maybe feeling a little stale. Not super exciting for you. We want to tell you about our super exciting challenge that we are launching in January called New Year new us, the 21 day relationship refresh. So we'll share more details with you later in the episode. But we really wanted to do something to take advantage of that New Year energy that most of us get. The, like, okay, the calendars are restarting time to, like, start things fresh. And obviously, we are all about helping relationships thrive, helping couples who don't want to settle for just okay or just being roommates. Like, we want you to feel that real, lasting, deep intimacy that we all are craving. And unfortunately, so few of us are feeling. And we want you to have more fun with your partner, too. I think that's something that I've just been paying attention a lot more lately. Just the idea of having fun with each other. I think even couples who like, maybe nothing's necessarily horrible, you're not fighting. It's not, you know, terrible, but you're just kind of wondering, like, God, we just. I don't really have fun with each other the way that we used to. So we designed this challenge to be super, super simple. We do not want this to be like, oh, my God, it's the new Year now I have to commit to, like, one hour a day doing this and do the 75 hard, you know, no, we're not getting into that. We Wanted it to be really simple. So it's literally five minutes a day. But you have the option to, like, go deeper if you want to. Well, again, I' tell you a little bit more about the whole. The full setup of what it walks through, but it's basically three weeks. Super simple, super easy, super doable, but has an outsized impact. You are going to be having more fun together. You are going to be creating new memories together and really starting 2026 feeling so close and so connected. So if that's already sounding great, you can head right on over to vmtherapy.com deeper v m t h e r-a p y.com sleepover/deeper. We will also have the link for the show notes for we will have the link in the show notes for you to go straight to it. But we would love for you to join us. New year. New us. Okay, so let's get into our text fight. This is between a husband and wife. I'm gonna read the wife's part, you'll read the husband. And let's just pause anytime either one of us has something to say about this fight. And remember, we are reading this completely live. So we're hearing, we're learning every little detail as you are, too. Okay, so she starts it off saying, I'm sorry I annoyed you last night. I was in a goofy mood and I thought with you egging me on, you were too. And I misread the situation. It was a good apology.

[A]

We've been there, totally solid.

[B]

And yes, we have. Absolutely.

[A]

I feel like the first couple years of our relationship, this was a. This was like an ongoing issue and.

[B]

It was all me misreading, misreading the situation and taking things too far.

[A]

Sorry. It's funny. It's actually funny. Just like 10 second aside here. It's funny because that's just not a thing in our relationship at all.

[B]

I learned.

[A]

So real. But it took. It took a while. Yeah, it took a while.

[B]

I learned. I finally learned. But yeah, this is a great example of an apology. I like that she gives some context, but it's not used as an excuse. They're like, you know, I thought you were egging me on, but she's fully taking responsibility. I misread the situation.

[A]

Yeah, that. That's perfect because, yeah, that could have been. I'm sorry I annoyed you last night, but you were just, you know, you were being goofy too. And so I thought that I was, you know, that's how. That's how many of us apologize. And it we really just end up negating or devaluing the apology by doing that. But I thought, blah, blah, blah. She's saying, I'm sorry. She's still sharing her experience, but she's not sharing it in a way that takes away from the apology. So he says, it's fine. I didn't mean to react so poorly, but I really thought by saying what I said that it meant, please don't pour water on me. But I get you were being playful, and I'm not mad about that. Oh, so she, like, actually poured water on him. Okay.

[B]

All right. One thing here. I don't love when people say it's fine in response to an apology. I would say, thank you for the apology.

[A]

Yeah. Because, yeah, he's not acknowledging entirely that she apologized.

[B]

Also, the. But there's two butts in this. So I think, like, clearly he is a little bit upset, so it's like, don't say that. It's fine. Say, thank you for the apology. I. I really thought I was being clear, but now that I hear that, I get that you were just trying to be playful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I appreciate the apology.

[A]

I do. Like, at the end, he's saying that, I get that you were being playful, and I'm not mad at that, because I think that that's actually important. He's saying to her that, I don't want you to stop being playful. I like you being playful. It's just that this was perhaps too playful. Okay.

[B]

So she says, could have fooled me. You seemed pissed going to bed. We took a hard turn already.

[A]

Well, I think this is. This is actually. This is proof to what you just said of. I think that this entire thing could have been avoided if, instead of saying, it's fine being like. Like you said, just, hey, thank you for apologizing. Like, you know, I did have a big reaction. I wish I hadn't had such a big one. And also, like, I was. I was upset because then. Yeah. Because she's saying here, you were clearly upset.

[B]

But, yeah, I.

[A]

Obvious.

[B]

Obviously, I don't love this response. I think if he's, you know, accepting the apology, just say, like, okay, thanks. I'm glad that we could talk about this and move on. But she's clearly like, she. Nope. I want to fight with you about it some more.

[A]

Yeah. Because. Yeah, my. If I had her in front of me right now, I'd say, what were you trying to get?

[B]

Yeah. What did you think he was gonna respond to that?

[A]

Yeah. What were you looking for? All right, so then he continues. However, I. Oh, so another.

[B]

Oh, maybe he was. Maybe she responded so quickly that he was trying to give more of a response, but she responded so fast before he finished.

[A]

Oh, no, I'm. I'm actually. Well, we haven't read this to the audience, but I'm thinking that it's like she's, like, clearly poking the bear. And so he's like, all right, well, let me tell you something else that I'm not happy with here.

[B]

Okay. I'm not sure if. If that or if he was trying to continue.

[A]

Next time it'd be like, send the timestamps. All right, so then he continues, takes it another turn. However, I've been feeling physically neglected and not sexually desired by you. It's not my top priority when we hang out, but it is important to me. And when I get up way earlier than you, I was trying to say, let's do that before I'm too tired. Not that it was a waste of a night, but that was. You. Being in a silly mood. When I was in a different mood just kind of kills the vibe for me. Like, I feel like there's some kind of sexual disconnect, and I aim to fix that. Like, we're never in the mood at the same time, but we only get small windows to hang out, so it's like, we kind of got to make it work, and especially when you're gone a lot. Okay, so it sounds like he was trying to push things in a more sexy type of direction, and she was in a really goofy, silly mood that culminated in her pouring water on him.

[B]

I'm not. Yeah, I'm not sure if this is related to what happened or if this is him just being like, well, now that we're talking about things that we're upset about, I'm gonna pull up everything else, which we also don't recommend. Like, tackle one thing at a time.

[A]

I mean, I think it's sort of a combo. It's. It's partially a pile on because she's like, oh, could have fooled me. But I think it's also. I think he's talking about the same thing. I'm. I'm thinking that, you know, he got annoyed last night because she was really goofy and poured water on him. I think what he's saying is she was in that very goofy mindset, and he was wanting to be in a more sexy mindset. They had a short window of time together before he had to get up really early for work and, you know, and he didn't know how to reconcile the difference between, like, hey, I'm trying. Like, I'm trying to send the sexy signals and you're getting really silly and pouring water on me.

[B]

Okay, I will. I'll. I'll nitpick a tiny bit of language here. He said, I've been feeling physically neglected. I don't like the word neglected, because to me, that implies that it's, like, her responsibility.

[A]

Yeah. Totally passive for him.

[B]

Yeah, it. Like, she's supposed to be taking care of him. I think he said, I'm not feeling sexually desired by you. I think that's. That's a fine thing to say. But I would switch. I would. I would just remove the physically neglected. I would say something more like, I've been missing you lately, and I've been wanting us to be able to connect more. See how that has a totally different vibe? If somebody says to you, I've been feeling physically neglected, you're like, fuck you, dude.

[A]

Versus, that sounds real serious. Yeah.

[B]

Versus somebody saying, hey, I've been missing you lately. Totally different vibe. Right. Okay, let's go to her response. It's not that I didn't want to. I just didn't want to immediately because it's harder for me to get turned on and finish if it's abrupt like that. When I suggested sitting on the couch first, I was hoping to cuddle and slowly touch each other a little bit to get aroused that way. And I apologize for not making that clear.

[A]

I love that she's apologizing. My first thought.

[B]

She's brought it back down again.

[A]

Yeah. My. My first thought when she said, I was hoping that blah, blah, blah is, like, all you needed to say is, hey, let's sit on the couch and. And just, like, cuddle and touch each other and, you know, get each other turned on. Like, that would have been super sexy. I'm thinking, like, if I initiate sex with you and you're like, hey, let's, like, take the next 15 minutes to, like, really get each other turned on and, like, tease each other a bit on the couch. I'm like, fuck, yeah, I'm in.

[B]

I love that you said that, because I think so many in male female relationships, I think a lot of us women, most of us take a little bit of time to warm up and get in the mood for sex. And a lot of us feel like there's something wrong with us or broken. Like, that's.

[A]

So we don't want to say, oh, I need 20 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, it feels embarrassing to ask for it, but the way that you Phrased, it was so nice of, like, let's get each other excited and get each other really going. Like, that makes it feel fun and sexy. And I can guarantee if you say that to a man, he is going to feel excited and want to be intimate with you, versus, like, oh, I'm just like, I'm not in the mood.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because I think this is the important point there is, like, that's not my default. My default. When I'm thinking I want to have sex with you, my default is not, let's tease each other for 20 minutes on the couch. That's not the first thought that comes to my mind because it doesn't take me very long to get there. As you know, it takes a couple seconds of fumbling and I'm ready to go.

[B]

Fumbling, wow.

[A]

Fumbling around.

[B]

You know, take.

[A]

You know that. Take that to me. Whatever you want.

[B]

Is that what my technique is? Just fumbling?

[A]

Wow. Okay. I back myself into a corner there. Welcome to a podcast fight, everybody. It's not via text. No, I'm just kidding on. So, yeah, that is not my default. However, if you invite me to do that and you're telling me, hey, like, I want to tease you too, on the couch, I am excited about that. I'm really excited. Honestly. That sounds hot to me and fun right now. As soon as I. As soon as I said, it's just so funny. Like, as soon as I said that suggestion, I was like, damn, that sounds like fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even though that's not something that I'm likely to ever suggest unprompted. Because I think the other thing is that. But it's like, if he's thinking. I think where a lot of men get stuck is they're like. They're like, okay, well, I could try to slowly start seducing her or teasing her on the couch without that explicit initiation. But, like, then it's just going to seem like I'm trying to sneakily get something or, like, manipulate the situation. I think a lot of guys are hesitant to do that without being asked to do that, because it's like, we see all these messages of, you know, oh, like, don't, like, do the hug. That turns into the hands going up the shirt, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so I think that a lot of guys are hesitant to do that, but if they get invited by their partner, hey, yeah, we should definitely have sex. Let's tease each other for a while. Let's not go to the bedroom just yet. Like, if you just said those couple words, like, so much more sex would be happening that would be so much better for both people.

[B]

Yeah. I think this is just such a prime example of the ways that we tend to miss each other. Like both of these people want to be having sex with each other.

[A]

Yeah, they both wanted sex in that moment.

[B]

They both left feeling like the other person didn't. It's so easy for us to misunderstand each other when it comes to sex. If you're someone looking to bring a little more fun and enjoyment to some mundane tasks like laundry, then you should check out Laundry Sauce and their signature and essential packages. They make premium detergent pods, scent boosters, dryer sheets, and more, all designed to infuse your laundry with high end fragrance fight stains and make every load feel effortlessly elevated. They have a brand new scent called Himalayan Cashmere, which is their first ever hypoallergenic fragrance created to be gentle on even the most sensitive skin. And they have super convenient subscriptions so you'll never run out. You can get their packages delivered on your schedule with flexible options and exclusive perks. But Laundry Sauce isn't just about smelling incredible. It's engineered for performance. They revive fabrics, making your favorite pieces look and feel brand new. For a limited time only, our listeners get 20% off your entire order when you use Code pillow@laundry sauce.com that's 20% off@laundry sauce.com with promo code Pillow. After you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Don't forget to drop our name. Trust us, your laundries never smelled this good. We have a confession to make. We are both nighttime teeth grinders.

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[A]

I understand that I was trying to finish my laundry and get that out of the way, but that turned into the water thing. And then we started a show that requires me to pay attention at 9, 9pm, which is like my bedtime because I work at 6 and at that point I gave up on sex. TBH, you got me till 9 or 10pm before I fall asleep or need to be asleep for good days at work. Use that information however you need to. But this is what I mean by disconnect. When you assume I knew that's what you wanted to do. And assuming I can stay up late and watch two episodes of the show and then have sex and then wake up at 5:30. Not happening.

[B]

Okay, I like that he said. I understand. Like he's trying to. Just saying some simple sentence like that helps keep things like softer and gentler. So we're getting the picture filled out a little bit here. And this is another classic mistake that most couples wait is we save sex till the end of the night and we run into these situations where he's like, I gotta go to bed at 9 in order to wake up at 6. But we're watching the show and I would do the water thing and like. So one of our most practical tips of advice is to prioritize sex as early in the evening as possible. It's a variation of fuck first. So before tv, before zoning out on your phone, before laundry, laundry before Instagram, like whatever you can prioritize sex before you will be all the better for that.

[A]

And I know that it might sound crazy right now when you have this list of things that you know you need to do. I guarantee you you will get those things done significantly faster than you think you will if you've just had sex before. It's like, like, it's like a time, time distortion hack. I promise you there's no scientific evidence because no one's funded any studies on this. But seriously, time Slows down or we get more efficient. We, you know, our. Our time speeds up. Whatever. This, this. We do this all the time. We're like, oh, my God, there's no way we're going to be able to get all this stuff done. Oh, let's have sex. Boom. Everything gets done. An hour later, it's all done.

[B]

All right. She says, my thought was we can always rewatch an episode or scene or whatever. I never assumed you could stay up late with two episodes and then have sex.

[A]

Sex.

[B]

I made the comment about limited foreplay to try and hint at what I was looking for because I've made comments about enjoying that extra couch foreplay before. After the water thing, the mood seemed off, so then I didn't try anything. There's also a theme here, I think, where. I think women have the tendency to hint at things.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And men hinting doesn't work for men. Like, they need to be more.

[A]

Women think they're more obvious than they are. Whatever. Who cares who is? Right. The reality is, is hints are. Hints either get missed or hints aren't clear enough.

[B]

Okay, so she. Yeah, she's wanting a little sexy time on the couch, which I think is fine and fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we got to be more clear.

[A]

Yeah. And I think this is just. This is just like an. An upfront, laying the cards on the table type of conversation. Hey, I. I think it's super sexy when we are watching a show and starting to have foreplay with each other. I am not looking at that when I suggest that, like, it is not about watching the show, trying to remember the show. Like, I am assuming that we are gonna go back and re. Watch that episode because we are going to be distracted by each other's bodies. Right. I think that's super hot and sexy. That, like, that, like, distraction kind of sexiness. Right. And so just explain what that's like for you. And honestly, maybe even here's a great idea. It's almost like having a sex playlist. Think of a random show. Maybe like, you know, a show where there's like a. A million seasons. Something that you've watched. Like one of those sort of like classic shows where you only suggest putting that show on when you're looking for sexy show foreplay. Something like that. Where it's like. Where it's not like. Because I. I can see it's not necessarily a great idea where it's like, like, oh, hey, the. The new. The newest episode of Last of Us is on. Let's watch that. And then start touching each Other. Right. Like, you know, there's shows where it's like, oh, I'm excited to see this episode. I can't wait to see what happens with this versus, like a show, you know, like maybe a funny comedy like Parks and Rec or something where you're like, all right, we're gonna put on Parks and Rec in the background and start fooling around. So, I mean, that might be a great idea. Just have that conversation. And if this is. This seems like something that she specifically is really into. And it's like, if this guy can get behind this, like, he's going to get a hell of a lot more action. And I think he's going to really like it because it's like, it's fun to do this. So just come up with a signal or a show where it's like, hey, let's put on the show. We don't care. We've seen it a million times. We know it happens. We're not missing anything. Okay. So then he continues on. For me, it was like, why can't we do foreplay in the bedroom if that's what you wanted to do? I think we both have the same idea, just different ways of going about. About it. Yep. Again, this gets back to the conversation about why you like doing this, why this is fun. And again, I think this even bolsters my argument for like, yeah, pick a. Pick a foreplay show, specifically. All right. Then he says, for me, it's like, I've already been waiting the whole weekend, which I wasn't doing it myself. He's talking about masturbating, guys. Cuz you like me to wait. And then I see you and it's like, this stuff happens. It's a little frustrating, but I'm like, like feeling bad for, like, asking you something I feel like you should want to do too.

[B]

She says, I also didn't know you waited the whole weekend. I was never told that again. We both wanted it. We just weren't on the same page of achieving it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I think this is. This is something that I think guys are hesitant to do or say. But it's like, hey, I have been thinking about you a lot, and I really wanted to masturbate. I really wanted to touch myself because I was thinking about you, but I didn't. Because I want to save it for you. Like, something like that. Like, because it sounds like they're not. Maybe they're not living together. Yeah, I'm assuming maybe that. So they have, like, very limited time together. I think that that Is also. That's another way more obvious hint of, like, hey, I cannot wait for us to be together and be physical.

[B]

All right, we got a big, long one from him now.

[A]

Okay. All right. Well, as my girlfriend, I think by now, you know one of my love languages is physical touch. And if I'm not receiving affirmation in that way, I'm gonna tell you not to make you feel bad, but because I want you to know that, just as I would want you to know if you weren't being satisfied. All right, jump in.

[B]

I just don't. Like, I'm gonna tell you. Like, obviously, text is hard.

[A]

Well, you are telling her right now.

[B]

Text is hard because we can't tell what the tone and the delivery are. That's one of the reasons why we don't recommend getting into fights. But there. This just feels really aggressive to me. If I'm not receiving affirmation in that way, I'm gonna tell you. I do like that. He then says, not to make you feel bad, but because I want you to know, like, that's great. Yes. We need to communicate with each other about, like, what our wants and needs are, but there's just this undertone of, like, entitlement through this a bit. Yeah.

[A]

That I'm gonna tell. The moment you mess up, I'm gonna tell you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's continue, though.

[A]

Yeah. Because, I mean, but he.

[B]

He does say, just as I would want to know if you weren't being satisfied. That's fair. So maybe I'm putting a weird tone on this that isn't there, but let's finish it then.

[A]

Let's see what. Let's see how it comes out. But, yeah, it's constant want and need with me.

[B]

Okay, we're back down to. No, no. Like, this is one of the things that really frustrates me about the whole, like, popularity of the love languages model is people, like, people latched onto, like, oh, that's my love language. And then. And so many people are like, so I deserve that.

[A]

Yeah. So that's what I need.

[B]

That's my love language. That's what I need.

[A]

And any way I can be satisfied.

[B]

You need to do it whenever I want it. Like, no, it's okay for him to say. You could say something like, I can't get enough of your touch. You could touch me all day long, and I would keep wanting more. I would love you to keep giving me more and more and more touch. Like, that's all fine to say, but, like, it's a constant Want and need with me.

[A]

I don't know, but we're missing. We're missing the curiosity part of things where it's like, huh, wonder what is. Wonder what is coming up for me where it just feels like this constant need. Like, you know, this hole that I can't fill up. Right? Like, huh, is there maybe some personal work to do here on. Yeah, it's one thing for. Hey, this is important. This is integral to, like, me being who I am. But it's like, like, okay, my. I love enchiladas. They're my favorite food. Therefore, I have to eat them every day. Is the only way for me to be happy. Like, if. If that. If you found yourself a year into only eating enchiladas three meals a day, you might start to ask yourself, hmm, might I need to maybe work on increasing the variety of my diet? Am I maybe not getting all the nutrients that I need? Like, I just think that it's like this is a similar thing where it's like, this is the only way that I could possibly feel loved. The point of the love language is there are five. There are five general categories of ways that we can feel love. It's not that the only way to love me is one specific way. It's that you have a primary, but that doesn't mean that you can't get love in the other way. All right, let's continue. He says, so I need you to be more vocal about what you want, but also just open to sex in general with no plan or outline. It doesn't always have to be measured and planned. That takes half the fun out of it. For me, when it's such an easy way to show love for each other, it shouldn't feel like a chore. It doesn't to me, but sometimes I feel like it is for you. This is built up from last week when I was in the mood and you had your period. It's like, I've been dying for it. It more than just the weekend. I can do it myself, but it's not really desirable when I have you, bud.

[B]

Okay, yeah. This is where we need some communication finessing big time here. Because at the bottom line, what he's saying is totally fine. You are allowed to want to be intimate with your partner. You are allowed to ask your partner for more frequent sex, but the way that he is saying it is is just going to send her running in the opposite direction. I really don't like when I have you again. It's making it feel like she's just this vessel for him to have sex with rather than, like, I want to connect with you. I know we have limited time. Our lives are really busy, but you're my priority. And I want us to be able to have really quality, intimate time with each other. That's a totally different vibe than what he's saying.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's why we get into relationships. Like, we could all give ourselves our own orgasms. You know, if that was the soul, that was. If that was like. If orgasms were the only way I felt like myself, then, yeah, I might not want to be in a relationship because I'd want to just do it to myself all the time. But that's for the most, 99.9% of people. That is not, you know, that. That's. You know, we got into a relationship because we want to be able to have that intimacy of doing it with. With somebody that we really love.

[B]

Okay. She says, I don't have a response right now and need to focus on getting stuff done. I will respond later.

[A]

Have a good day.

[B]

Thanks. You too.

[A]

Love you.

[B]

Love you, too. Okay, so I think this is fine. I think it's okay to put a pause in conversations to take some time to think. Of course, sometimes life happens and there's other stuff that we need to attend to. So I like that she, like, just asked for the pause. And she was specific in saying, I will respond later. You ha. That's what you have to do if you want to take a break is like, I'm going to come back to this. And I would have preferred. Preferred saying, like, a specific timeline that she would respond. But this is good, and I appreciate that both of them were able to do a pause. Okay, so she comes back. We're not sure exactly how much later, but she says our sex drives are very mismatched, and that's the main issue. I have a low libido and always have, but I could do a better job at initiating more. I sometimes don't notice if it's been a while because, again, I don't crave it in the way that you do. But I can try and be better about being aware of that. I'm not promising to have sex every time we're together, but I can try more. My thing is I need more help. Help with foreplay and getting me into the mood physically, or else that's when it can feel more like work. Okay, I like what she's saying here. She's taking ownership. She's calling out specific things that she can improve on. She's also not, like, making promises that she feels like she can't follow through on. So I think this is a good message. But here's my hunch. She says I have a low libido. I don't think she does. It sounds to me like she has an issue with pleasure, with her enjoyment of the sex that she's having. Because several times now she has pointed out to him, I like us to be sexy on the couch. I like us to tease each other and get into.

[A]

I wanted that to happen. I was hoping you would do that.

[B]

So she. Here is where she's. Now it seems like she's feeling a little bit bad about it. Like, oh, I need more help with foreplay and more help with getting me into the mood. Don't feel bad about this girl. Like, that's part of sex.

[A]

That's partnered sex. That's.

[B]

Partnered sex is us getting each other excited and turned on. Like, think back to when you were dating. Like, that was the fun of sex is like, getting each other really turned on and craving it. Right. Like, we didn't just jump right into it. Like, we spent all this time creating that anticipation for each other. So it's. And in each time that she has pointed this out, he has not had a response to that. He has not even acknowledged that. And so I think she's have. The sex that they are having is not particularly enjoyable for her. And so therefore, it is a very reasonable for her to not be craving it all the time, because it's not. Why would you crave something that's not that enjoyable to you?

[A]

Yeah, well, he did have a kind of a response. I want to go back to this because he said.

[B]

And we said, why can't we do it in the bed instead of on the couch?

[A]

There was. There was that. But I feel like that's kind of a. That's kind of a separate. I don't know. I don't. Yeah, I don't know that one. That one is. That is what it is. But I think he was kind of saying it doesn't always have to be. Or. No, no, he was saying, but I want you to just be open to sex in general with no plan or outline. It doesn't always have to be measured and planned. And I think that he's conflating her saying that she would enjoy teasing each other on the couch for, like, 10 minutes with a plan or outline. And I think really what he is, like, subconsciously, what he doesn't really realize he's saying or how this Is coming off. Is it sounds like what he's trying to imply to her is, well, I just want it when I want it. Like, just, just give it to me. Like, I'm hard now. Let's go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and it's like, okay, yeah, I get that you're horny now. I get that. Maybe, maybe you're hard right now. You can, can get horny again. You can get hard again. This is a team sport. We help each other out, get to that point. I think this is the thing that so many guys are missing. I missed this for the first like 10 plus years of our relationship until I realized, oh, okay, yeah, I can be excited now and I can, it's fine, I can lose my erection. She can help me get it back. Is I had to let go of this idea that like, oh my God, I have the desire right now and if I let go of it, it's never coming back. Back. I don't know how we get this idea, but it's like, yeah, if I play back the history of my life, when I start getting stimulated, I tend to get horny. Right? And so, like, all you gotta do is put yourself in a situation to get stimulated again and it comes right back. So I think this is something we gotta get over. But again, it just gets back to, you know, her being able to express to him. You know, it sounded like he was kind of starting to make some moves that were moving towards initiation. And if she were just able to express to him, hey, let's touch each other on the couch for a little while. I want to like, I want to like, get. I, you know, I want to be like dying to be with and to have you inside of me or whatever it is. Like, that's because I think also in his head he might be thinking, oh God, I just have to like, like finger her for 15 minutes on the couch. And it's like, no, like there should be something for him in that too. Like, you guys can both touch each other, you can both tease each other. This doesn't have to be like a one way street.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. So he continues on. It's not that I expect it every time. Like I said, it's not my main objective. But I do notice large gaps of time where we aren't intimate for various reasons. But I do expect it. When I haven't seen you for so long and we haven't had sex in weeks, no, the sexually, the sexual frustration kind of builds and I don't want to be aggressive towards it at all. That's not me. I understand that. I understand getting you in the mood, but take our different work schedules into account on nights we hang out, and maybe let's do it early. Hey. He's making the suggestion great. Rather than falling asleep in a show before falling asleep before sex. Just my opinion. But I could have been more patient last night and more laughable and jokey. I just kind of am the sex version of hangry, if that makes sense. And I was irritable already, having to go buy propane and shit when I didn't want to. Okay, we're getting into some side conversations here.

[B]

Okay. Again, yeah, it's this. This undertone. And, like, I want to give him credit because I. I like that he said, like, I could have been more patient. You know, he's taking ownership here. He's not, you know, just being a complete lunkhead. But it does feel like, again, there's this undertone of, like, entitlement that, like, I expect it when I haven't seen you in so long. And even saying, like, I mean, the sex version of ha is pretty funny. I will go give him that.

[A]

But as a hangry person. Vanessa. Vanessa relates, and sometimes I get the.

[B]

Sex version of hangry, but we just have to be so careful with that because, again, it's totally okay for him to want sex however much he wants it. And it's understandable if it feels like there's a long time going by without them being intimate. It's understandable to feel disconnected, to start to. Yeah. To, you know, really want to connect with your partner. But again, we just have to be so careful about the work words that we use. So we're making it clear to our partner this is not just about me needing to get off. And you're just the vessel for that. I want to connect with you. I want to have this special experience with you. Right. And I just. Yeah, I. So. I think I could have. I would have loved to have been able to coach him in the moment, to change the language a little bit, to make it a lot more palatable, because I just don't love the way.

[A]

That he's phrasing it and not even in the moment. Like, this gets back to what I said before. I think that there needs to be. They need to have more conversation during the weeks or the times that they are apart. Where I think he should be. He should be encouraged to talk about how much he wants her sexually, how much he's missing her. Like, I think that there's a way and maybe they can talk about. Is there a way that we can talk about this that is not going to feel like obligation or annoying to you? Like can we kind of have some like dirty talk over the phone or over, over text or even have some phone sacks sex like where we're talking about how much we miss each other. Like it seems, I mean it seems like there's a huge opportunity honestly for them to be having some phone sex on. Because I think that can be a way, you know, for like to, for her to feel kind of teased and warmed up too. And I feel like, yeah, like he, he, the problem now is that it sounds like he's saying I get sexually frustrated in these times where we're not seeing each other other and therefore I build this expectation. I builds and builds until this feeling of expectation that I really need it when we get back together. But there's been no communication about what that is like for him during that period of time. So then he shows up to her with this, this you know, very like entitled energy. Whereas if they were talking about it together it would be very clear to both of them, hey, we are both really excited about having sex together once we are back together. Like they might even be able to create a plan or a sexy scene of like how it's going to look when they get back together to have sex. I feel like for her she's talking about wanting, teasing and maybe some fantasy or whatever. Like this sounds like a great win for both of them. A way to get her in the mood. Like oh God, like two more days. I can't wait till I'm going to walk in the door and I'm going to do this to you. You know, like I feel like there's a way to do this and set this up where they are both getting exactly what they want and neither of them are feeling the, these expectations.

[B]

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[B]

Okay, so she says again, I Wasn't trying to wait until we went to bed yesterday. I just wanted to cuddle some beforehand to help me get in the mood again.

[A]

That could be something she could have said in advance. Oh, babe, I cannot wait until we're back together. It's so hot when we are teasing each other on the couch and that's the first thing I want to do when we're together.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She's setting the expectation that this is something that's going to turn her on and he's gonna get some sex at the end too. Like, win, win.

[B]

Since we are on the topic, I have also been feeling unsatisfied. So already we don't want to do this. Handle one thing at a time, close it out. And I would even specifically say, hey, are we done with this? Because there's something else I wanted to talk about. Ideally I would have it at totally separate times, but if you're limited for time, at least close it out. So I don't love this jump. So she, she says, I don't really feel like you're interested in what I have to say or what I'm doing. I feel like I don't get asked about things I'm doing or have done much or follow up questions to whatever I'm talking about. For example, I've seen you twice since this weekend and you haven't asked me about it at all. I want you to be curious in the things that I'm doing and what I have to say and ask rather than just telling you. And I will. Okay. Again, I don't like the way that she introduces. But side note, women, people in general, but like, really women, we love, love being someone being interested in us, in our internal world. And I guarantee you, if he showed more interest, they would be having more sex.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I, I think that men are much more likely to just dump like, oh God, I had such a hard day at work and just go into it because I think like, societally we've kind of been validated, like, oh yeah, you deserve to get all that off your chest and like just kind of of dump it all out there. Whereas I think women tend to be more like waiting to be invited to share and it's such a simple thing. Hey, how was your day? How was that thing you were doing? Tell me all about it and then give her permission to just start dumping it on you.

[B]

All right, we got a long response from him.

[A]

I have been interested in things you're doing. I've been asking about your apartment and your fun weekend. I talked to you about that, but you're also just so busy all the time with all kinds of things. Things to say I'm not interested in them is kind of false because what exactly do you mean me to comment on? I've been talking to you about everything. But I do ask questions sometimes, and you make me feel dumb or give short answers. Most of the time I just let you talk because my days are all the same. But me not caring about your things, I don't think is a fair assessment. And what's to know about this week except that you're tired from your long weekend and you're behind in work? I'm not trying to bug you with a bunch of questions about work because you just get irritated that you're behind and don't want to talk about it. And other than that, you're trying to pack and then you're leaving again. For two weeks, I've been excited and present in your apartment, shopping and happy for you there. Like, what else would you like me to be attentive to?

[B]

Okay, so this is just your classic defensive reaction rather than like, acknowledging, hey, you know, I hear what you're saying. I'm really sorry I've given you that impression. Like, it. It's natural for us to want to defend ourselves. Clearly, he thinks that he is being attentive. So there are. You can share that with her. Say, I'm really sorry that I gave you that impression. I thought that I was being really attentive. I thought I was asking questions and give your partner that context. But then, like, the two of you can work together as a team to, like, okay, what is it that I could do to help it? Help it be more obvious that I am caring, that I am interested.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you can even express disappointment. You can say, oh, man, I'm. I'm so bummed to hear that because I, you know, I was thinking here, I was doing a good job of doing, you know, XYZ here, and I'm hearing you saying that, you know, you felt like I was, you know, missing the mark in certain areas. So I'd love to hear more about, you know, beyond these things that I, you know, know I talk to you about. Like, what else were you hoping for here?

[B]

You're coming at this in a defensive and not open to listen and have a conversation manner. So this is not going to be productive at all. So never mind. Okay.

[A]

Although, so good until I think it's great to be like, hey, this is feeling defensive, and this isn't Productive, but never mind. Yeah, no, it's like, you can't. Unfortunately, you can't do the Men in Black thing. Like, you know, Flash. You know, the. The whole thing where it's like, oh, boom, you forgot the last five minutes.

[B]

She says, don't say that. You want me to tell you when I don't feel satisfied in an area of our relationship and then immediately tell me my feelings are wrong when I do?

[A]

That's a good. Good callback girl.

[B]

She's. Yeah, she's spot on.

[A]

That's fair. That's fair.

[B]

He was being defensive.

[A]

He fell into his own trap.

[B]

Yeah, he wasn't acknowledging. She. She. To be fair, she brought it up at a bad time in an inappropriate time. But, yeah, I think it's. I think it's okay to call. I wouldn't tell your partner you're being defensive, because you're always gonna hear, no, I'm not. There's nothing that's gonna make someone defensive more than being called defensive. So I would have tried to cool things down a little bit by saying something like. Like, I'd. I don't want to argue about this. I'd really love for you just to hear what my experience is and to be able to validate it, even if it's different from what your experience is. Okay. What does he respond?

[A]

I'm asking you what could I have been more attentive to? That's a real question. That's.

[B]

That's fair. I mean, he's not. He's ign. He's ignoring the other parts where he was being defensive. But that is a good question to say, how can I be more attentive to you?

[A]

Yeah, true. I know. I said that was a good callback. We're. She was like, don't. You know, don't tell me to tell you if. If you know something is wrong and then not be able to take it, because he. To be fair, he did ask a question. She. He avoided the. The defensive thing, and she avoided the very real question that he asked. So.

[B]

Okay, then she says, your attitude does not feel like it's coming from a genuinely curious and kind way. It feels accusatory following everything else you just said.

[A]

Which is exactly why I. I said, you know, we both had the. The thing of, hey, you can say all of this, but not from the perspective of, oh, no, I was asking you questions. You're wrong. It's like, hey, I hear you. That's a shitty experience to be having. I'm. You know, I'm feeling confused because I thought that I did a lot of this stuff, and I see that I still miss the market in certain areas. So I'm, you know, I. I care about you. It's important to me. So what else, you know, what else were you. You hoping for there or what else was missing?

[B]

This is really getting at the heart of intent versus impact, which is one of the hardest things to grapple with in relationships that so often the intent that we come at something with ends up having a totally different impact on our partner. So he thinks he's being attentive, and she's not feeling that attentiveness. And that's so frustrating. And it's so easy to get defensive. All you want to do in those moments is be like, yes, I was. I'm doing the thing that you want me to do. And it takes so much skill and so much practice to be able to say, I'm really sorry that that's the experience that you're having. This was what my intention was. This is what I was wanting you to feel. And I can acknowledge and make space for the fact that you're having a different experience.

[A]

I think there's. Those words are so important, especially to the men out there, because I. So many men. I mean, I. I think about this all the time. Like, the way that I was socialized to apologize, you know, to someone espe. You know, as boys in, like, kindergarten and stuff, it's sort of like the teacher makes a determination and, oh, you know, Johnny has to apologize to Billy. Billy's right, Johnny's wrong. Right. It's like there, you know, it's like jury, judge, and executioner kind of. And so I think that a lot of boys have it hardwired into their head.

[B]

Head.

[A]

Oh, if I have to apologize, I am wrong. I am a bad person. And this takes all of that away. When you say, I am so sorry, that's the experience that you had. You're not trying to say your experience is wrong. You have to really mean it when you say it. And you're like, oh, I'm sorry. That's what your experience was like. That obviously is not going to work. But you're saying, hey, your experience is important to me, and I am so sorry. That's the experience that you're having. Here's the. Here's. Here's the experience that I was having. Having. I was, you know, I was thinking I was being really, really good, and I was like, you know, doing a great job asking all this stuff, and it doesn't seem like that's the. You know, that wasn't the. The. The perception that you had of that. So, like, you know, I would love to know what else you were. What were you looking for? What would have felt better or different for you in that moment?

[B]

All right, let's wrap it up. We're almost at the end here.

[A]

So he says, that's fair. I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm sorry. Sorry. I will try to try harder to be more interested in things you're doing.

[B]

Love it. Look at this guy. That's amazing. That's fair. He's validating her experience. He's also standing up for himself, but in a way that's not, like, aggressive or anything. He's just saying, I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm sorry. He's apologizing, and he's saying, I will try harder. Great. A plus, my dude.

[A]

I am curious. So he. He seems like he gave up on the very real question that he was trying to ask. Ask.

[B]

No, I think.

[A]

Which is, what else could I. What else were you looking for?

[B]

They should come back to that for sure.

[A]

I hope that they come back to that, because I. Looking back at this, I think it's. There's. There are things that she said that caused problems. There are things that he said that caused problems. And I think that he did a really great thing there in being like, hey, I would love to know what else you're looking for here. He wants to be better for you. I really hope that you're able to get back to that question of what that could have looked like, because he genuinely wants the answer.

[B]

Okay. She says, you may not be intentionally doing it, but imagine. Okay, I appreciate saying that. Imagine if I came at you saying, no, we actually do have enough sex, and you wanting more is wrong. I can prove we have sex because we had it on this date, this date, and this date. And if we don't have it, it's because you're busy. You'd be pissed. Yes. You asked some questions, but I want you to be genuinely curious. Not just, how was your weekend, but what was your favorite part of hanging out with your friends? What did you guys get up to? How did you. How do you know Maggie, ET feel like the only thing you know about my weekend is the bare minimum that I had texted you during it. It's so interesting. This happens so often. Like, one person will deescalate and the other person ramps it back up. They've, like, switched roles with this. So, yeah, it's just like it's just feeling like she wants to keep fighting about this, and it's just not going to be very effective. But let's get his last response here.

[A]

Actually, you know what? I'm rereading what she said when I first read that first bit of the text of the. Like, you know, imagine if I came at you saying, blah, blah, blah, blah. The. When you first read that, I was like, oh, she's going back in. But I reread it, and I'm actually. I actually don't mind it so much. Like, she's actually putting it in language that I think he can understand, like, she's flipping or, you know, she's basically showing what he did of, oh, no, I asked you about this, this, this, and this, and you're actually wrong about it. And she put it in the terms that he can understand, which is. Which is the situation of, you know, where he's saying, hey, we're not having enough sex. I'm feeling sexually frustra. She's like, imagine if I had responded to that being like, no, we have plenty of sex. Look, here's the proof. We had sex here, here, here, and here. And actually, you're wrong.

[B]

But still, like, he started by saying, like, that's fair. I'm not trying to be defensive, and I'm sorry. So, like, it. It does feel like. Like she could have said, thank you for the apology. I really appreciate it. You know, here's the impact that it had on me, or here's the experience that I. I guess I should.

[A]

Yeah, she could have been like. It kind of felt. Felt like as if this had happened.

[B]

But also, one thing that she does do that's good is she gets specific here. And this is something that couples get into trouble with very often is we make vague requests of each other. Like, something like, be more interested. Like, what does that. What does that mean to you? So we have to be more specific. So she gives him specific questions that he could ask her that would feel to her like a genuine curiosity, which.

[A]

Is great, because I know I just said I really hope they get back to that conversation. And she just did, which is awesome. So he says, it's rare that you get that in depth when asking me questions about anything, but I will.

[B]

A little tit for t. They're both.

[A]

Doing it, but I will try to be more involved with what you're doing and be more curious. I guess I don't know much about your friends that don't live here, so I get that. But part of me just thought you would tell me all about it, but all you've been saying is that you're tired from the weekend and so just figured you'd unpack all that later. You haven't had much time to talk to me since you've been back. We've had one walk together, and last night. Night. But I'm sorry for not being more curious. I guess I don't notice because I just don't care to talk about myself as much.

[B]

Feels like a little tiny bit judgy, but. Okay, he's apologizing again, which I appreciate.

[A]

So me asking questions is something I will work on. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I. I think that I see where he's coming from. That it's like, you know, hey, I'm asking you, oh, how are you doing? Oh, I'm so tired from this week weekend. If you said that, I would not be like, okay, tell me all about the weekend. Right? Because it seems like, oh, that's going to be more tiring to. To tell me all about it.

[B]

No, but the best question that you can ask your partner is just tell me more.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, or yeah, what? Yeah, what happened?

[B]

It's better. Especially with curiosity and interest, it's better to be more curious and have your partner say, like, your partner might say, you know what? I just really don't want to talk about it. It's going to make me cranky, and I don't want to, like, affect our precious time together. That's fine. But they've still experienced that interest from you rather than you making the assumption, oh, my partner probably won't want to talk about that, so let me not ask them.

[A]

That's true. You know, it might be a misunder. This might be more of, like, a male thing, I'm thinking, because as you said that I'm thinking, oh, well, she's expressing physical tiredness, not necessarily emotional tiredness. And I think that men probably conflate those two because we're not most emotionally savvy relative to women in general. And so I think that for men, it can feel like, oh, well, if I'm physically tired, I'm definitely, like, not open to, like, expending emotional energy. And if I'm emotionally tired from, you know, whatever, like a fight or something, I'm also, like, not like, oh, yeah, let me expend a lot of physical energy. And so I think that men might have that misunderstanding. They hear their partner go, oh, I'm so tired from this week weekend. And he. And he's not realizing, oh, she's just physically tired. Like, she doesn't want to go to the gym or go for a long walk or like, whatever. She wants to sit on the couch. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to talk to me.

[B]

Okay, here's her last response. Okay, I don't have much of a response. Girl, at least acknowledge his apologies. Thank you for the apology. I appreciate that. Like, it's okay to, you know, you can say, like, you could have just said, thank you for the apology. I really appreciate that. Let's just leave this here.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I feel complete with this conversation. But to just say I don't have much of a response, just. It's such an unsatisfying, like, you're leaving it really open ended. You're not resolving anything. Well.

[A]

But then he jumps in with. I mean, he kind of does it for her and goes, okay, well, I'm about to go to bed anyway. Good night. I love you.

[B]

I. I'm fine with that. I actually like that he said, I love you. Good night.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the only thing I can think of is that maybe be like, you know, obviously he knows her a lot better than we do. We don't even know who this person is. But, you know, it might be her saying, I don't know much of a response. Might kind of just be par for the course or like, something she says a lot where he's like, okay, cool, this is sufficiently de escalated. Or who knows, maybe he's misreading it and she's gonna come at him hard the next day and be like, hey, I didn't like how you ended that conversation.

[B]

All right, well, I want to again say thank you to this couple for being willing to send this to us. And I want to acknowledge we're all human. We all make communication mistakes. But I hope this has been help for you and for everybody listening. So many little tips and insights and ideas along the way. Like, I have so much fun breaking these down. So if you have a text fight with your partner that you want us to dissect, please come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Zander and DM it to us. We would love to help you break it on down. And let's tell you a little bit more about our new year, new US 21 day relationship refresh. It's our three week deeper challenge starting this January. January Deeper is our membership for couples. So like I was saying earlier, we designed this to be simple but still very sexy. Doable, but still very impactful. So at Minimum, you need five minutes a day. But if you want to go deeper, you can spend way longer on it. Like the each of the activities, there's the ability to go deeper on them. So here's how it works. There are three weeks, and each week has a different theme. So the first week is reflecting on 2025. What did we learn? What do we want to continue doing? What do we want to stop doing? Week two is an emotional connection refresh. So this is helping you look forward to 2026 and design the most emotionally intimate and connected year that the two of you can have. And then week three is a sex refresh. So planning out, having busiest year yet. So each day for 21 days, you get a question to help you reflect on. So you spend a little bit of time on your own whenever it works for you during the day. And also, I wanna say we designed this to be flexible, too. So if you wanna do it 21 days in a row, we did that because there's great research showing that 21 days is the amount of time it takes to form a new habit. But you can also, you know, do it every other day, every couple of days, like, whatever works with your schedule. So you take that question, you spend a little bit of time reflecting on it on your own. You jot down some notes. We have these really cute workbooks that you can, you know, fill your answers into, then come together later with your partner to share your answers, to connect, to get closer with each other. So it's just, again, super simple, but has a surprisingly big impact. Like, we really picked these questions carefully to at least elicit the most insight, the most growth, the most laughter. Like, it's so much fun to do together. So this challenge is exclusively within our Deeper community, and we are giving you a crazy deal on deeper. It's just $99 for the quarter. That's less than one date night out for most people for an entire quarter of access to deeper or 247 for the entire year. And the challenge is just one teeny, teeny bit of what you get in Deeper. There's so much other stuff that you get access to. So head on over to vmtherapy.com deeper to check out Deeper and the entire challenge. We seriously think it is going to be so much fun and we would love to have you join us.

[A]

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week. We release episodes every Thursday day.