← Pillow Talks
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- [00:00]
Vanessa Marin
Your disconnection does not make any impact. It does not make any change. And I think, you know, us making change in the world requires us staying in touch with our humanity. If you allow yourself to get dehumanized by isolating, by disconnecting, by, you know, not, you know, feeling close to your partner like the bad guys, win. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.
- [00:41]
Zander Marin
Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:50]
Vanessa Marin
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. I'm wondering if you guys can address when you don't want to have sex because of politics or world events. I'm having a really hard time separating guilt and privilege of allowing myself to experience pleasure when people are being kidnapped, separated from their families, and murdered. I know I've been neglecting my partner recently of four years who agrees with me politically, and yet every time I think about initiating or he wants to have sex, I feel extremely guilty and shameful. I know sex is a crucial part of a relationship, but it somehow feels trivial to me when fascism is taking over my country. Help. So we got a lot of DMs like this over the last week. In particular, we are recording this on Thursday, January 29th. We actually got so many DMs and so many very impassioned DMs that we decided to rush an episode out about this. Usually we record our episodes like couple weeks in advance. Yeah, couple weeks in advance and not on Thursdays. But we just felt called to help and we decided, let's make an episode just.
- [02:17]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I think as. As you will see from what we're going to discuss, it's a really important topic. It's both important and it's tricky and it's understandable. And yeah, I think that it can feel like intimacy or pleasure needs to be the first thing to go when times are tough. But we kind of have a somewhat different perspective on that.
- [02:41]
Vanessa Marin
So in this episode, we're gonna walk you through some really powerful reframes, some different ways of thinking about connection, intimacy and joy during these really difficult times. And we're gonna get very practical. We have to 12 specific things that you and your partner can do together. Yeah. Well, I want to start by normalizing this. So first of all, if you're experiencing this, whether, you know, it's this period in time or there have been plenty of other periods in time where this has come up, if you are, you know, reacting to what's going on around you by having less desire, by feeling guilty, connecting with your partner, that's a normal reaction. It's a common reaction. It's a really understandable one. And spoiler alert, we still think intimacy is important, even when it feels like the world is falling apart. So we're gonna walk you through why we think that and how to continue prioritizing your relationship and each other. Cause, like, at least with this person and really with all the DMs that we've been getting, people want to. They're like, I wanna connect with my partner, but I'm just struggling to be able to do that right now.
- [03:51]
Zander Marin
Yeah. I mean, I think the really interesting thing is that y. Intimacy is always important, but I think that it can be even more important when times are tough, which is the counterintuitive but really interesting thing, which we'll talk about.
- [04:06]
Vanessa Marin
So first, let's start by talking about some common reactions that happen during stress.
- [04:13]
Zander Marin
I mean, and first, maybe we should even say that ultimately, when challenging things are going on around the world, I think sometimes we can take. Even not even realize that it's stress per se, because you're like, oh, well, nothing is happening. To me personally, like, you know, in my town, nothing is happening. But I see things happening on the news. I think. I mean, first of all, it can be valuable to just recognize that stress can occur whether something is actively happening to you or passively happening to you. Right?
- [04:43]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. And we're living in a time where we have access to world news in a way that we never have before. I mean, think about before. You know, think about before cell phones were around or the telephone was around, you know, it would take, like, weeks, months to hear news from other parts of the world. Sometimes you'd never be able to hear news from other parts of the world. But now, and, you know, we have been able to do this for a while, but, like, nowadays, we are able to find out in an instant something that's going on on the other end of the world. And we have these little devices in our hands at all times that can show extremely GR Video, especially with what's going on right now with all the ICE raids and protests. Like, I don't remember another time where we've Seen this much video of what's happening. Yeah, I mean, we watch things happening from like, literally every angle and then, you know, it's, it's everywhere. Like, if you're, if you've been on social media in this last week, you cannot swirl your feet. Or maybe if you have really worked on your algorithm, so all you're getting is like cute dog videos. I think the vast majority of people, like you cannot look at social media without being bombarded by videos of what's going on.
- [05:54]
Zander Marin
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, and I mean, yeah, I'm thinking even five to ten years ago, the, the way that we would see stuff like this happening was different. Like, yeah, we would still get a lot of video of things, but I think there's still a bit of a level of disconnection on, you know, like, you know, mostly you're seeing, you might see like, news video where it's like, okay, so like, we're seeing video from above in the helicopter. We're seeing, you know, we've got some good high quality video from like an actual news crew on the street, but like, there's not that many news crews on the street. And now. And I think almost the weird thing that I've realized is like, when you get the more raw, like cell phone, like, iPhone video, it feels more real.
- [06:43]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [06:44]
Zander Marin
Then it, you know, there's. I feel like there's this weird thing where it's like when you watch something on like a news channel, like a like TV news, it just feels different. It feels produced. Even though it can still be very raw. Like they're in the street. The way that it's set up, like there's someone in front of the camera, like talking to you. It's, It's a different experience when you're just getting served up like super raw footage. The camera's shaking around. It's like, oh, like I could, I could see myself taking that video when you're watching a lot of this stuff. And that's just a different experience, a different level of. There's like no more disconnection from what is happening, which I think is why it can feel so stressful.
- [07:25]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. And in a lot of ways, our bodies can't tell that that's not immediately happening in front of us.
- [07:32]
Zander Marin
Even though your brain is telling you, oh, yeah, this is video that someone else took. You know, the brain and the body respond and react very differently.
- [07:42]
Vanessa Marin
So common reactions that we experience during stress, fight. I mean, everybody's heard of fight or flight. And more recently, we've Added freeze as well. So if you're going into fight mode, that could lead to conflict with your partner. And I think most of us have experienced this where we are really fired up and we're really angry and upset about something, but we can't take it out on the person or the entity that we're really upset about. And we wind up taking it out on our partner.
- [08:10]
Zander Marin
Yeah, we project whatever we are feeling on someone that is closer, someone that is a little more convenient to be able to unload that on. And I'm sure we've all been in that situation where you look back and you're like, oh God, I was so angry or upset at this other thing that was super far away from me that I could never actually get angry at in person. And I just like. And I found some little tiny thing to nitpick about my partner so that I could unleash all, you know, so I could like get rid of these feelings. And instead of getting rid of them, you just pass them on your partner and you cause a fight and you're still in the same old shit.
- [08:50]
Vanessa Marin
Then we've got Flight, which is where you try to get yourself away from the situation. It can lead to avoidance. So that might even end up being avoidance of your partner where you just, you don't want to, you know, you're isolating, you don't want to be around them.
- [09:07]
Zander Marin
You want to kind of shut the world out.
- [09:08]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. And there's Freeze, which is where we feel we can feel overwhelmed, we can feel stuck. This can look a lot like kind of numbing out, obsessive doom scrolling or watching the news, not being able to like pull yourself away from that. Just disengaging from the world, from your life in general and like being so focused on this.
- [09:28]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I think that one is interesting. There are some similarities to Flight, because you were talking about avoidance. But I think the big difference with Freeze is that it's like. Well, so like flight in, in a, in physical terms would be like you run away. Like a monster is chasing you and you run away from the Monster vs Freeze, where it's like something is coming towards you and it's like you can't move. And you know, in real life terms that's, you know, while the flight might be like kind of like a burying your head in the sand or just disconnecting from everything. I'm not going to look at my phone, I'm not going to watch the news, I'm not going to talk to anyone. I'm not going to co regulate with my partner Freeze is sort of like, you can't look away. And it's like. And I think this is. We hear so much more and more about this with, you know, the concept of doom scrolling. Like, that's literally what doom scrolling is. It's like I can't look away. I can't stop. I know I shouldn't be doing this, but I just have to keep doing it.
- [10:25]
Vanessa Marin
I also want to talk about the fact that stress decreases desire.
- [10:29]
Zander Marin
Any kind of stress. Work stress.
- [10:31]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, any kind of stress. Stress is. We often will say it's a number one boner killer killer. Boner killer and.
- [10:38]
Zander Marin
And more.
- [10:38]
Vanessa Marin
And boner killer and more wetness killer. I don't know what. There's not. I don't know what my equivalent would be of that. But yeah, when our bodies are under stress, our libido shuts down. So when our bodies are under stress, physiologically, what happens is our bodies. Our bodies are incredibly intelligent and they will divert energy and resources and only focus on things that are key to survival. So if we think back to our caveman ancest, if we were experiencing a threat, there's a woolly mammoth that comes around the corner. We need to run away quickly. So all of our resources will be going into powering our legs, powering our arms to get away as quickly as possible. If you're running away from a woolly mammoth, what point would there be to having an erection or being wet? Nothing. Right. I actually will say, like, if you have an erection while you're trying to run, that's a hindrance. It's going to slow you down.
- [11:37]
Zander Marin
You're going to be selected out of evolution very quickly.
- [11:42]
Vanessa Marin
So libido is one of the first things to go. Why do we need to be turned on and horny and ready to go when we're trying to get away from a threat? Now, the issue, of course, is that we have evolved away from our caveman days. A lot of the times, the things that are causing us stress are not woolly mammoths literally bearing down on us in that exact moment. But our bodies are still. Still responding in that way. Our bodies haven't learned, like, oh, I'm just stressed about work, but work is always stressful, and for the rest of my life, I'm going to be stressed. So it's fun, you know, like, our bodies haven't adapted in that way well.
- [12:15]
Zander Marin
So, yeah. The problem actually is, you know, you said we've evolved. The issue I think, though, is that we have not evolved fast. Enough technology and society has evolved much faster than our actual bodies have evolved. Because the thing is, is, you know, a couple thousand years ago, most people were not under constant stress. You were. When you were under stress, it was a very immediate stress. I am, I have, you know, there's a threat that I could be dying right now, I am running away from a thing, or there's a, you know, there's an impending immediate threat. There wasn't this either. There was no real such thing as this ongoing level of stress. Like, oh, my God, I hate my boss at work and it's going to be really hard day. It's kind of like, okay, things are generally stable or like, I'm about to die and I should be stressed. But like, you know, we now society and technology has evolved so that we can be under, you know, not this immediate threat stress, but other types of stress that can be really constant. And while it may not be as high in any given moment as the, oh my God, a lion is chasing me, when it extends for a long period of time, it ends up impacting you in the same way. And so, who knows, maybe 5,000 years from now, humans will actually start to evolve to be able to handle or to differentiate and handle these two different types of stress. But we are definitely not there yet. And so I think it's so important to recognize that our bodies can't really handle ongoing stress. We or they can't. Our bodies can't handle it if we don't take action. If we just try to be like, oh, yeah, no, you know, I. I'm strong and I can handle this. Like, no, you can't really handle that in the long term. Like, we need to take some type of action to recognize what's going on and try to try to change our situation.
- [14:11]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So in these kinds of moments, when it feels like there's a lot going on, you're experiencing that stress. You're feeling, you know, compassion and empathy and fear. Like, there's a. Just a whole slew of feelings that most of us are feeling right now. Connection feels really difficult and pleasure in particular feels very frivolous. It can feel like, you know, I should be doing better things with my time. There are better uses of my time. It's, you know, we compare ourselves to others. Like, how could I be experiencing this? You know, how can I be having pleasure and joy and orgasms when somebody else, you know, life is being threatened or actually, you know, being killed? So it can just feel very. Yeah, Very, very complicated. But we want to Offer you a different way of looking at this. Humans are not built to survive crisis alone. We are really not built to survive much of anything alone. Humans are social creatures. We rely on each other for our survival. Historically, connection, not isolation, has been how humans have endured war, instability and uncertainty. So we need each other in challenging times. We cannot isolate and get through it. We need connection. And your partner is the primary person that you can and should be experiencing that connection with.
- [15:40]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I mean, I think if you think back to history classes in high school, college, and you're learning about really, really bad times in the world, like, you know, World War II, Holocaust survivors, things like that, you don't hear stories of, oh yeah, like this, this person survived this really challenging thing because they just isolated themselves and, you know, and hid in a corner and, you know, made it through five years in a POW camp totally alone. Yes, occasionally you hear those stories, but for the most part you hear stories of, hey, there were 10 of us, we banded together. You know, we, we made the most of the situation that we were in. We, you know, we knew that we had to dig in for the long haul, that, you know, we were going to be stuck here for a long time and we had to create whatever type of normalcy we could and really work together. And that's how we made it through. You know, like the people that do that are make it through challenging situations as unscathed, like psychologically as possible. You know, people that are alone trying to handle things on their own over a long period of time, like the damage gets done. And so I, yeah, I think it's just so important. I can think of, you know, so many examples. You can think of examples in history, in movies that you see like that is how we survive as humans.
- [17:07]
Vanessa Marin
So not only do we need each other for survival, we need that connection, but that connection also fuels us making actual change in the world. When you feel connected and supported, when you have that foundation that you can rely on, that is when you can do real work in the world.
- [17:30]
Zander Marin
Yeah. Or like, if you want to flip that around a little bit, like how much of a positive impact do you think that you're actually capable of making in the world? You, if you're stuck in flight mode, fight mode or freeze mode, I know if you're frozen and doom scrolling, I guarantee you you're not making any positive impact on the world. If you're in fight mode, you might think that you're making some kind of impact, but you are highly dysregulated, you're Angry, you're upset. Like, you are probably not doing your best work.
- [18:01]
Vanessa Marin
You're not going to be able to sustain yourself.
- [18:03]
Zander Marin
Yeah, yeah, you're not going to. And you're not going to bring people together to inspire long term change if you're just super riled up, super angry all the time. And obviously if you are in flight mode, I don't think that you're making much impact on the world because you are running away from the situation. Right.
- [18:20]
Vanessa Marin
I also think it's really helpful to think about it from this perspective. Like, who does it benefit if you and your partner are disconnected? Like, it certainly does not help any of the people who are in need of help right now. Like, there's nobody out there thinking like, oh, Mark and Susan didn't have sex last night. Great. Now I'm safe. Now I'm happy. Now everything's totally good.
- [18:42]
Zander Marin
Yeah. I feel better about my bad situation because this random person 5,000 miles away didn't have sex last night or they got in a fight. Great. I feel way better about my situation.
- [18:54]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. Like, your disconnection does not make any impact. It does not make any change. And I think, you know, us making change in the world requires us staying in touch with our humanity. If you allow yourself to get dehumanized by isolating, by disconnecting, by, you know, not, you know, feeling close to your partner, like, the bad guys win. That's what, you know, that's what people who are trying to hurt other people, people who are creating evil and pain and suffering in the world, like, they want us to feel dehumanized.
- [19:33]
Zander Marin
Yeah. Unmotivated. Mm.
- [19:35]
Vanessa Marin
And so, I mean, for me, in times that I've felt overwhelmed and dark and powerless. Yeah. I try to remind myself like, that this isn't, you know, this isn't making change. This isn't making an impact. And this is exactly what people creating evil in the world want. So the key idea that we're trying to share with you here is, like, your relationship is not a distraction from reality. It's. It's one of the ways that you survive it. Your relationship is the best place for you to restore yourself, for you to recharge your batteries so that you don't burn out, numb out, or collapse under the weight of everything that you're carrying. Real change in the world requires active, ongoing effort. And our intimacy, our connection, our closeness is what fuels that ongoing effort. I did not realize that a pillowcase could help with anti aging and hydration until I tried Blissey. Blissey makes these Absolutely incredible silk pillowcases, which are seriously game changing for your skin and hair. You can get healthier skin in weeks. It reduces fine lines and wrinkles and those sleep creases even helps prevent breakouts.
- [20:57]
Zander Marin
It helps prevent your frizz, prevent your hair from getting frizzy.
- [21:00]
Vanessa Marin
I guess I have really frizzy hair and I have noticed such a big difference since sleeping on Blissy pillowcases.
- [21:07]
Zander Marin
Yeah, you wake up with gray hair.
- [21:09]
Vanessa Marin
Frizz is way better.
- [21:10]
Zander Marin
Great. I said great. Not gray.
- [21:12]
Vanessa Marin
Less breakage. It even preserves styles and color and.
- [21:16]
Zander Marin
It feels super luxurious. For me, my hair doesn't really get impacted by pillows too much because it's so short, but it just feels so luxurious.
- [21:25]
Vanessa Marin
And they sleep very cool too. I'm a hot sleeper and it's so nice to have like a nice cool silk.
- [21:30]
Zander Marin
Yeah, no, like head or neck sweats.
- [21:32]
Vanessa Marin
Because you're a listener. Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you shop@blissey.com Pillow Pod. That's B L I S S Y.com Pillow Pod and use code Pillow Pod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. So let's get into a little bit more. I am so excited to be partnering with Quince again because they are one of my personal favorite brands that I have bought so many things from with our own money. If you've never heard of quints before, they make everyday essentials with quality that lasts. They make incredible clothing, but they've really branched out with a lot of other products too. Now they have home goods, they even have food, furniture, skincare items that everything is really built to hold up to daily wear. But they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production, which we love. I actually just bought a maternity set from Quince for my sister. She just gave birth and I wanted to find her some clothes that were like cute and cozy, but she still felt kind of pulled together and I immediately was just like Quince. I'm sure Quince will have something. And sure enough, there are like a couple of really cute sets. The prices are incredible. I mean, this is one of the best things about Quint. So I was able to get her a couple of really cute things. So I seriously cannot highly recommend checking out Quince enough. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comprillow for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.comprill for free shipping and 365 day returns quints.compillow more detail about, like, how can our relationships calm our nervous system? How do they actually make that impact that allow us to, you know, to keep going? So there's the idea of like CO regulation. Oftentimes nervous systems regulate better together than alone. Again, we're social creatures. We're built to be with one another.
- [23:47]
Zander Marin
Yeah. Not only is that why we are social, but is also why most people want to be in relationships. It's one of the major benefits of being in a relationship with someone is the ability to co regulate. Most of us don't really understand what that is until we learn about the topic of CO regulation. And then it kind of turns a light bulb on of like, oh, so that's why when I am like, you know, cuddling on the couch with Vanessa, my heart rate drops. I feel calmer. It's like even if the two of us are both kind of agitated and we just take a second to be together, it's a way for us to both calm down without talking about anything, without doing anything. That's sort of the magic of two people who care about each other being close together.
- [24:37]
Vanessa Marin
Physical touch biologically has a lot of impacts on us. It increases oxytocin, it reduces cortisol, so it reduces stress. It improves our heart rate variability, increases our calm, feeling emotionally safe improves our critical thinking, improves our emotional resilience, and improves our decision making under stress. There's also something that we therapists call name it to tame it. Research shows that when we can label our feelings, when we name our feelings, they lessen their grip on us. So when we name our feelings, we tame our feelings. If you can name what it is that you're going through, research actually shows that emotions will dissipate in around 90 seconds if we let them.
- [25:22]
Zander Marin
It's a lot easier to do that with your partner.
- [25:25]
Vanessa Marin
Yes, exactly. To have somebody to name it to.
- [25:30]
Zander Marin
One of the. I feel like this actually reminds me of. I've, I've seen a lot of mentions on Instagram of this lately, of like one weird trick that like helps people stay more, more sane and in better health. And it's people who talk to themselves, talk through their feelings, like, oh, wow, I'm feeling scared right now. Oh, this is, this is weird. I'm confused about why this is happening or why I'm feeling this way. Oh, maybe I'm angry, maybe I'm whatever. And yeah, I mean that, that is literally Name it. You're naming it, to tame it with yourself. The reality is most people are, don't naturally talk to themselves out loud. You might have certain, you might have some feelings about how, how it would feel to actually do that might feel kind of weird. And so yeah, of course, if you feel comfortable with that, it can be really beneficial. But it's a hell of a lot easier when you have somebody that you trust and that you are comfortable with that you can just talk to about that stuff.
- [26:24]
Vanessa Marin
And we also have research showing that the state of our relationship is the greatest predictor of our overall life satisfaction and happiness. So our relationships really are crucial. So the key reframes here. Feeling calm does not mean you are complacent. Feeling grounded does not mean you are checked out. Regulated people are more effective people. So if you are burnt out and disconnected, you are not going to be in a place to make the change that you want to see in the world. Regulated, connected people are the ones who are making the real impact. Next, I want to talk about, I think this is probably my favorite topic of all the content that we wanted to share with you today. And that's the idea that joy is resistance. So I think we have this cultural narrative that tells us, you know, if the world is suffering, joy is selfish. That's what we're seeing in so many of the DMs that we're getting. Like, I feel guilty feeling this way. I feel like I'm not allowed to feel this way. But I kind of hinted at this a minute ago when I was talking about, like, this is letting the bad guys win. You know. Authoritarian systems thrive on isolation and despair. And joy is one of the best ways that we can stay human in dehumanizing times. Joy preserves imagination, hope, stamina, and joy gives us the energy to make change in the world. Now the other thing about suffering is, you know, even in good times, you are always going to be able to find some level of suffering in the world. Like at any given moment, there is a lot of suffering happening in the world.
- [28:08]
Zander Marin
Yeah. And I think it can be easy to fall into the trap of like, oh my God, what's happening right now in this moment is really extreme. And so I need to, I need to, you know, stop having. I can't have a good time. It's not, it's not fair. I need to be, you know, I need to be in doom scrolling or whatever, totally frozen. And I think that once you get into that loop, it can be really hard to get out of it. And so if things do start to stabilize eventually. Then you're so used to the doom scrolling and the looking for what is the next awful thing that's happening, It'd be easy to just fall into that cycle of like, okay, well this thing that was initially stressing me out is not happening anymore, or it is not happening as extremely anymore. And then you're just on to the next thing. And yeah, I can guarantee you if you feel like it's not okay for me to have joy or pleasure or connection when times are tough, I can guarantee you in this day and age of social media, you can always find a rationale that times are tough for someone or somewhere. And so, you know, if that is the. If that's kind of how you want to live, you're not really setting yourself up for ever really being able to live much of a life.
- [29:25]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, I think that this is one of the most powerful examples of being able to hold the and you and I talk a lot about the importance of the and that multiple things can be true at the same time. We can acknowledge there's a lot of scary stuff happening in the world right now. There are a lot of people hurting and suffering in the world right now. And I can still choose to experience joy and connection. And again, like remembering that joy is resistance, Joy is saying, I refuse to be dehumanized, I refuse to be beat down, I refuse to give up hope. I can be honest and realistic about what is happening and I can also be joyful.
- [30:09]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I think that the and is also so important if. If feelings of privilege are coming up as well. So I think that's one of the big ones is like, oh, I'm living with so much privilege that I don't have this really scary or challenging thing happening to me every day or in my city or in my town. And it can feel like, oh, that's not fair. And I think the and is so important there. Yeah, I am really privileged to not have this at my doorstep and I'm really grateful for that. And I'm going to be connected with my partner and I'm going to find something that I feel like I can do to make a difference in the world if I care about what's happening. So I think that and is so important. It's like we're so used to like, oh God, I feel so privileged. It's not fair. And then we just shut down and it's like, no, no, and. And what's next? Like, and what else? Like, it's okay for something to be not fair. It's okay to that, hey, you have some really great privilege, and it's okay to be grateful for that. And it's okay to do something nice for yourself and try to see what you can do to make a difference as well.
- [31:25]
Vanessa Marin
And I think joy also creates hope too. Maybe this is kind of a weird example, but what it's making me think of right now is I remember it's made me think of AA meetings that you would tell me about, you know, kind of early in your sobriety journey. Journey. You would come back and say, you know, man, I've. I heard some really tough stories from other people, you know, in this meeting, and I feel kind of guilty sharing that, like, things are going really well for me right now. And what. I mean, I can let you speak to it since it's your story.
- [31:56]
Zander Marin
Oh, yeah. I mean, that is. That. That is something that nearly anyone in sobriety, whether you do aa, you do anything else, whatever, that is absolutely something that will come up for pretty much everybod. And it often happens very early on when, you know, things were tough. Things start to get a lot better. And, you know, for me, I was going to meetings and, you know, hearing a lot of really negative and challenging stuff, people going through really tough, really tough things and sharing about that. And then it would be my turn to share, and I'd be like, oh, God, I don't really know what to say because, like, actually things in my life are all in all, really good compared to what's going on with these other people. Everything is really good. And so my initial. My initial instinct is, you know, to. To kind of close down. Like, oh, I don't. I don't really have anything to share today. Or, you know, try to find something challenging. Oh, what's the, like, one thing that's really. That's, like, kind of barely challenging me. And then I kind of, like, try to make it sound a little bigger so that I can be like, you know, be like, oh, yeah, I have challenges like these other people. And I remember sharing that with my sponsor at the time of, like, oh, like, I feel really guilty in, you know, a lot of these meetings and, like, and it makes me not want to share. And he was like. He was like, oh, yeah. Like, one, that's totally normal. But two, he's like, if things are good, share how good they are. Like, don't be scared of that. Like, if everybody sharing was like, oh, God, my life is falling apart. This is horrible, then people will be like, oh, well, why are we gonna. Why are we gonna do this program. Like, everyone's suffering. It doesn't really seem like it works. Like, if it's working for you, if things are, you know, if things are good, share that things are good. You won't. You need people who are struggling to have something to. To look up to or something to aspire to. And that was. That was really meaningful. That was really meaningful for me. I. I know personally, my own sobriety journey, I feel like, has really better equipped me for challenging times like this because I had to learn from a really, really early point in time that it's like, at the end of the day, my sobriety comes first. Doesn't matter what's happening in the world. Doesn't matter what's happening in our relationship, because at the end of the day, if I relapse, if, you know, I start drinking or whatever, like, I am no good to Vanessa, I'm no good to me. I'm no good to my family. I'm no good to any of my friends. Like, I can't make any. Any positive impact if. If I do that. Right? And so that really has helped me make this really clear differentiation that it's like, yeah, no matter how challenging things are in the world, I have to do a baseline level of things for me, I have to do a baseline level of things to keep me happy, healthy, well regulated emotionally. And I think that's such a valuable lesson to be able to learn. You know, I. You know, most people don't need to go through, you know, don't need to, like, go through the shit that I went through in order to learn. But I'm really grateful, you know, whatever I had to go through, what I had to go through to figure that out. But such a powerful lesson. You are no good to anybody if you're just constantly dysregulated.
- [35:13]
Vanessa Marin
If you're still struggling with this thinking, like, oh, my God, it just feels really hard to think about feeling joy when there's so much pain and suffering right now. Here's another way of thinking about it. Would you ever tell your kids you're not allowed to play this week because of what's happening in the world?
- [35:30]
Zander Marin
Yeah, that sounds crazy.
- [35:32]
Vanessa Marin
It sounds really weird. Like, no, I would, like. I would never. I would never tell that to my child. I would never tell them that, like, they have to suffer because other people are suffering. But that's often what we're telling ourselves in these situations. And, you know, we were talking about this as we were preparing for this episode, and Xander was like, yeah, like, you often will see videos and photos of kids in the most dire, horrible situations all across the world, like, playing. Because that's just part of the human experience, like, making the most of the situation that we're in, finding the joy amongst all of the pain and chaos. I think kids have a really beautiful way of holding the. And they don't even know that they're doing it. They're not like, I'm holding all the complexities of the world at the same time.
- [36:17]
Zander Marin
Innately great at this. And unfortunately, they lose it. We teach it out of that, and then we have to relearn it later in life.
- [36:23]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So if you would not tell your kid that they have to stop playing until there is no more suffering in the world, then stop telling yourself that as an adult.
- [36:32]
Zander Marin
Yeah. And you might be thinking, oh, well, I'm an adult. That's different. Kids need to play. But our perspective is that sex and real, true intimacy, that is. That is one of our prime ways of playing as adults. I think we all need some level of play, of fun. And as adults, we really get that through, like, activities, hobbies, and then through sex, you know, when it comes to our intimate relationships. And so, yeah, I think that's just. That is. Remember, that is our way of playing, of letting off, you know, blowing off some steam and feeling closer to our partner. And so, yeah, it really does require the. And, yeah, there are some challenging things happening. You know, I know. Like, if you, like. I think plenty of people are out there are talking to their kids about what is happening in the world. And are your kids just going into complete freeze mode? They're probably like, wow, that's really sad. And, you know, being sad for some amount of time and then they're able to be like, okay, now I'm going to go play with my friends. Right. Like, they, you know, kids just naturally are able to. Okay. Yeah. Wow, that. That's heavy. I'm feeling that. I feel empathy, I feel sadness. And then they move on to the next thing. And I think that there's a huge lesson for us there.
- [37:51]
Vanessa Marin
And if you're still really struggling with this idea, just think about it as fuel. Like, if you really want to be involved in changing the world, if you, you know, really want to be in this for the long haul, making actual, real change, you need fuel. You are not going to be able to do it from a place of suffering, stress, anxiety, fear, anger. You will burn out so fast. So if the only way you can justify that to yourself is this is just me Recharging my battery. We're watching Stranger Things right now. We're a little bit behind everybody, but like, they keep talking about that with Elle. It's like, oh, she has. She's fueling her battery, right? She's eating her beef jerky.
- [38:30]
Zander Marin
Give that girl some beef jerky.
- [38:31]
Vanessa Marin
Joy is your beef jerky. Okay, you are. L. You're fighting the bad guys, and the joy is your beef jerky.
- [38:39]
Zander Marin
Sex is your beef jerky.
- [38:41]
Vanessa Marin
Sex is your beef jerky. I mean, it's your beef.
- [38:45]
Zander Marin
Your hot beef. Maybe not jerky. Maybe jerky is the wrong word. It's your hot dog.
- [38:50]
Vanessa Marin
It's your hot dog.
- [38:52]
Zander Marin
We just. Vanessa the other day was like, oh God, I want a hot dog so bad. So we bought. We bought a pack of hot dogs and I made her one yesterday and she was so happy.
- [39:03]
Vanessa Marin
Cool story, babe.
- [39:04]
Zander Marin
Thanks so much. I know. I'm real happy. You know, every now and then just.
- [39:06]
Vanessa Marin
Good old fashioned beef dog, hot dog. If you're like me and have a partner who is constantly reminding you to drink more water, you need to check out Cure. Cure makes plant based electrolytes with no added sugar. And it hydrates better than water alone. They have incredible flavor flavors like watermelon, berry, pomegranate. Zander's favorite is the lemonade. They're not too sweet or artificial tasting. They come in these really convenient little packets. So just toss a couple in your bag. Perfect for workouts or travel. They also have a brand new clean energy drink mix. It's plant based with 100 milligrams of natural caffeine and electrolytes for focus and hydration with no jitters and no crash. And that one comes in flavors like peach tea and acai berry. We've both been using Cure as a little pick me up for an afternoon slump. And seriously, when you're hydrated, it just makes all the difference in the world. Staying hydrated isn't just about water. You also need electrolytes. That's why we love Cure. It's clean and tastes great. You can grab Cure on Amazon or find a store near you@cure hydration.com pillow. Real ingredients, real hydration.
- [40:26]
Zander Marin
Do you wish you had more fun in your relationship?
- [40:29]
Vanessa Marin
If you're like most couples, you do, but you also struggle with like, what exactly to do to have more fun and feel more connected.
- [40:37]
Zander Marin
And that is exactly why we created the Spark.
- [40:40]
Vanessa Marin
It's a monthly digital drop where you get one sweet date night, one spicy date night, a new sex position to try and therapists created Connection questions and delivered straight to your inbox. It is designed to keep things fresh, flirty, and easy, even in the busiest seasons of life.
- [40:59]
Zander Marin
Yeah. No planning, no awkward. What should we dos?
- [41:02]
Vanessa Marin
We lay out everything for you. All you have to do is follow the instructions. And the best part is that it is nine bucks per month. That's like the cost of a latte these days.
- [41:14]
Zander Marin
Yeah. So if you're ready for more laughter, more curiosity, and more fun, head on over to VM Therapy.com spark to join.
- [41:23]
Vanessa Marin
That's VMTherapy.com spark because a little spark goes a long way. Okay, let's get back to it. So I also want to just. Just to give some reminders about intimacy and connection in general. There are very rarely going to be super convenient times to focus on your relationship. And I'm not trying to downplay, like, now is an extraordinary time that we are living through right now. It is very complicated. It is very heavy. It is very scary. And, like, when have we ever had a time in our lives where we're like, oh, God, I just have nothing on my plate right now. Nothing's going on in the world. Nothing's going on for me. This is a great time for me to focus on my relationship. When has that ever happened?
- [42:12]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I know.
- [42:12]
Vanessa Marin
Probably never.
- [42:13]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I know. I can't remember the last time. Like, during the. Like, a State of the Union address, the president, like, hey, everyone. So, like, things are really good. Like, everything. Everything's coming along. Why doesn't everyone just take a month off from work and have fun with your. With your partner, with your husband, with your wife, with your kids? Like, just go on vacation. Let's just do a nationwide so nice vacation. You know, things are so good. Take your foot off the gas and just chill. Like, right. Like, that has never happened anytime in the history of humanity. So, yeah, I mean, the. The more that we can. I mean, it's counterintuitive, but it's like, yeah, it is a really inconvenient time. And if I can start to make a habit of prioritizing intimacy in an inconvenient time, imagine how well I'm set up for when things are less inconvenient. I'm not going to say when things are convenient because we've just established that they're almost never super convenient. But it's like, okay, yeah, well, when things are a little more stable, then it's like, then you're cooking with gas because you already have that habit formed.
- [43:19]
Vanessa Marin
I think real intimacy is choosing to show up for each other, even when it's really hard. And I believe that your relationship deserves to be a priority no matter what's going on in the world. So let's make this really practical. You know, we love to get practical. And let's talk about what are some specific things that you can do together when it feels like the world is burning down around you. Okay. Number one, be honest with each other about how you're feeling. Like all those things that you're thinking, ruminating on, Share them out loud. Name it to tame it with your partner. I feel like I'm not allowed to be happy. I feel scared that having a good time with you means I'm ignoring the suffering going on around us. I feel ashamed about having sex at a time like this, and I also feel ashamed for not wanting sex. Like, air those things out with your partner.
- [44:13]
Zander Marin
I think a lot of us can be really scared to share that because we're scared of how our partner might react or that they're gonna think that something is wrong with us. But when we don't share it, we just make that kind of like negative feedback loop that that idea is creating in our head. But we just further. We make it more ingrained. Yeah, right. We keep going through that loop. And the more you go through it, the more habitual it becomes, the more second nature it becomes. And yeah, like, it might sound a little crazy or it might sound. It might be tough for your partner to hear, but try it, because naming it to tame it really does work. Often I find this so often is I will be having some thought or some worry and I'll be like, vanessa, does this sound crazy? Like, I'm worried that blah, blah, blah. And often, as I hear myself say, will sound very different to me than how it felt inside. And I often will hear. Often I'll be like, whoa, that actually. That sounds totally crazy or totally wild. And. And actually I don't think I really feel that extremely when I hear myself say it. That sounds way worse than really what I'm feeling inside. Or I'll hear it and just be like, whoa, that's intense. And I don't really actually want to be feeling that way. So it gives you perspective. Like, just being able to hear the words out loud often helps you differentiate from them.
- [45:47]
Vanessa Marin
You can also make this like a little ritual and have daily check ins with each other. Just a quick beginning of the day, end of the day, make it a ritual where you're taking that time to just download and process with each other.
- [45:59]
Zander Marin
Yeah, or do that whatever frequency you.
- [46:00]
Vanessa Marin
Like, daily, weekly, whatever, contextualize your feelings. So I think I talked about this a little bit a few minutes ago. But, like, when you're sharing your feelings, wrap them in the context of what's going on. So we are not here to tell you to, like, deny your feelings or, like, put them a toxic positivity spin on them like, everything's gonna be great. I'm just gonna focus on joy. So we don't want to do that, but we also don't want to go to the opposite extreme of getting stuck in our feelings. So instead of thinking, how could I possibly enjoy myself when such terrible things are happening? Try, the world is terrible right now. How can we take care of each other? So you're letting both those things be true at the same time? I'm acknowledging the reality of what's going on around me, and I'm still reminding myself that we are important.
- [46:50]
Zander Marin
Yeah, that's. That's a really powerful one. That's bringing it back to sobriety. That is the spiritual principle of acceptance. How can I accept what is happening in the world? And so many of us, whether in sobriety or not, have serious problems with the concept of acceptance. It can be really hard to accept the world for how it is to accept a situation for how it is to. To accept life, like life's terms for what they are. And there's a huge power in being able to be like, okay, I see that this is what's happening. This is what is happening. How can I. How can I accept this and then move on? And it is. It. So much power gets taken away. You know, instead of being like, oh, this isn't fair. How could this be happening? You're living in the past. How could this have happened? You're living in the future. You're living anywhere but the present. Because you're like, you know, oh, God, how could this have happened? Or, oh, my God, this is. I can't believe this is happening. Because now X, y, and Z are gonna happen. If we can accept things for how they are, it is so much easier to be in the actual present moment. Okay, this is what's happening. And. All right, what can we do now?
- [47:59]
Vanessa Marin
Do grounding practices together. Go on walks, meditate together. Do breathing exercises, journal together. All those things can feel so nice to do with your partner. Focus on completing the stress cycle with each other. So I talked about the caveman, seeing the woolly mammoth, and how all of our resources get directed to outrunning the woolly mammoth in Those moments. So in moments of stress, all these stress hormones build up in our body to help ourselves get away from the danger. But now in these modern times, when we don't have that experience of like, oh, I outran the woolly mammoth, now I'm safe. Most of us are living with stress really built up and just lingering in our system.
- [48:46]
Zander Marin
Well, because back in the day, actually, you would literally run off.
- [48:50]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, you'd run.
- [48:50]
Zander Marin
You're running. You're literally running away from something. And by surviving the running away. Yes. Like, you are literally re regulating yourself. You're releasing all the cortisol and you're using it. We often in this day and age don't have any effective use of the cortisol that gets built up. Unless, of course, we put it to use.
- [49:11]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So we need to release the stress cycle. One of my favorite examples of this is like this morning I was taking Maggie and Chauncey on a walk, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, one of the crazy neighbor dogs starts barking like crazy. So we continued with our walk. Chauncey's training that we've had him go through has been excellent. He was so good. So we got past the dog. We, you know, got past that house and he stopped for a second and he shook his whole body out. That was Chauncey completing his stress cycle.
- [49:43]
Zander Marin
Yeah. Animals know exactly what to do. They. And we do too. We've just forgotten.
- [49:47]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So animals shaking it out, that's literally how they have evolved to let go of the stress. And then, you know, he shook it all out and then he starts prancing along going forward. So that's what we need to do as humans is like complete the stress cycle, release that built up stress. So you can literally shake your body out. Like, we have research showing that that does works.
- [50:09]
Zander Marin
It feels funny, but it works.
- [50:11]
Vanessa Marin
Scream, like scream into a pillow with each other. You can hit a pillow together, you can do super hard exercise together, but complete that stress cycle together.
- [50:20]
Zander Marin
You can dance. That's maybe one that feels a little less.
- [50:23]
Vanessa Marin
But like, it's got to be like intense intensity. Yeah. You can't just. It's not slow dancing. That's not gonna do it. Maybe some like, twerking. Twerk out that stress.
- [50:33]
Zander Marin
But I think you also get the very rare person that actually does want to have sex to release the stress. That is a very effective way. The thing is, is that most people aren't able to get physically ready, like with that amount of cortisol. But if you. Because I think we have this kind of stereotype, like, oh, yeah, like sex is supposed to be this, this stress reliever. And it can be, but in high levels of stress, most people, their libido gets shut down. But there are, you know, the small percentage of people that are like, oh, yeah, no, I'm, I'm horny, I'm ready to go. And if that's you and your partner is open to that, that also works.
- [51:08]
Vanessa Marin
Great way to complete the stress.
- [51:09]
Zander Marin
I mean, that works. And then, and then you're doing the thing. We're recommending all this stuff so that you can be regulated for sex and intimacy. So then you get to, you know, skip all of this. But if that's you, maybe you're not having this problem and needing to listen to this episode.
- [51:24]
Vanessa Marin
Okay, you can work on creating healthy media boundaries together. This is something I feel so passionately about. Like, doom scrolling does not help anyone.
- [51:34]
Zander Marin
Well, it helps the social media companies. Absolutely. Sure.
- [51:39]
Vanessa Marin
Okay.
- [51:40]
Zander Marin
So unless all, unless you just want to be doing good for meta at the expense of yourself. And maybe if you have a lot of meta stock, like, sure, Doom scroll.
- [51:49]
Vanessa Marin
Doom scroll away. No, like, I think, yeah, social media, it's great in a lot of ways for helping spread awareness, for, you know, spreading information, but it's also terrible in so many ways. You know, a lot of us just get sucked into it. We're, you know, we're being fed stuff by our algorithm that takes like one specific perspective. There's horrible misinformation online. Like, that's a whole other separate episode. Right. But doom scrolling doesn't help anybody. Sending angry DMs, leaving angry comments, that is not activism. So you and your partner together can pick like, pick one or two trusted news sources that you know, that you trust to give accurate, unbiased information. Pick a specific amount of time per day and maybe even a time of day where you're going to allow yourself to read, to watch in order to stay informed. That's the goal of your media usage. You want to be informed, but you don't want to get stuck or sucked into it. So you can hold each other accountable to those boundaries. Like remind each other of those boundaries. Maybe you do it at the exact same time and then the timer goes off of like, okay, we're done for the day.
- [53:01]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I mean, maybe if your goal is to be informed, my personal suggestion might be try to find some other media outlets, not social media, that are not social media. Instagram or TikTok or X Twitter, whatever. It feels so weird to call it x I know, I kind of refuse to, but like, yeah, you know, whatever. I don't want to tell you how to live your life, but I would recommend finding some other. Okay, we are. I would recommend finding some non social media news outlets that you trust as much as, as much as possible. In this day and age, it's crazy to say that it's hard to fully trust anybody, but it's a world that we're living in. But yeah, I mean the social media news and activism, it is, it moves so fast. There is so much misinformation and yeah, I mean the, the more I look at stuff, the more I realize on social media it's just, I, I can't really believe anything that I see.
- [54:02]
Vanessa Marin
So that's a whole other episode.
- [54:03]
Zander Marin
That's a whole other episode. But you know, try, try some non social media news outlets because it's. You might not want to because it's hard. You can't doom scroll them quite as much. But if you want to be informed, that's a better way to be informed.
- [54:16]
Vanessa Marin
Okay. Another idea is to find some shared moments of simple pleasures that you can experience together. Listening to your favorite music, cooking a great meal together, watching a comedian special brainstorm concrete things that you can do to make a difference. Donating, volunteering, calling legislators. And set a time, set aside specific times to do those things and take that action together. And then congratulate yourselves for taking positive action, making a contribution. Remind yourselves like, we've done what we can today, we've made a difference today and maybe even like now we can focus on something else for the rest of the day. Another one of my favorite tips is to practice transition time between your day and your quality time with each other. This is a tip that we give to people in like normal times too, that so many of us struggle with. Going from the constant go, go, go mode of day to day life into like, ah, now we're supposed to have quality time and have sex. Like it feels very jarring and especially in times like these, it feels extra jarring. So find something to transition, like a little transition in between those two things. So some great things are like going on a walk, like getting outside, getting some fresh air, maybe having a quick dance party to one of your favorite songs. But where you're being intentional about like this is us transitioning away from the day.
- [55:41]
Zander Marin
Yeah, that one, that one is so important because I think the vast majority of people who are writing in being like, oh, I just have no, you know, libido. My partner initiates sex And I just want to say no immediately. Like, probably you are in the midst of doom scrolling when that happened. Like, who is going to want to be like, I'm watching, you know, a horrible reel with this horrible footage of things that are happening and be like, oh, yeah, I'd love to have sex right now. Right. So it's just so important to be like, okay, yeah, okay, maybe I will allow myself 10 minutes of doom scrolling, but then I need to transition away from that because I think we're so I'm guilty of that too. I'll be sitting on the couch, like, watching things and then it's like hard to switch to something else. I need to actively be like, okay, I need to like, walk around for a second and then I'm done with the phone.
- [56:25]
Vanessa Marin
Focus on simple forms of physical touch without any pressure. So hugging, hand holding, massage, cuddling. You can get all of those oxytocin benefits without having to take your clothes off. If you do want to have sex, keep the expectations low for it. So you can literally say to each other, like, this is not going to be the best sex we've ever had, but let's choose to be intimate anyways.
- [56:51]
Zander Marin
Yeah, I think it's good to stick to reliable favorites like this. You know, understandably, this may not be the time to be like, all right, let's do. Let's have a threesome first.
- [57:02]
Vanessa Marin
Threesome.
- [57:02]
Zander Marin
Let's do five commercial completely brand new positions that we've never tried before. You know, let's do something we've never done before.
- [57:10]
Vanessa Marin
Stick to the old classics.
- [57:12]
Zander Marin
Yeah. And then also in terms of vibe, I would say stick to. Unless you're really feeling some other vibe or you're wanting to blow off steam or some release some energy. I'd aim for more tender and intimate vibes than hot and heavy because I think that just. It feels more. It feels more supportive. It feels more building of emotional connection.
- [57:33]
Vanessa Marin
And regulation and keep acknowledging and thanking each other for putting each other first. Like, this is hard to do. We're not trying to make it seem super easy. So just giving each other that acknowledgement of, hey, I know there's a lot going on right now, and I'm really grateful that we are continuing to prioritize each other. So your nervous system matters, your relationship matters, your joy matters. Staying connected is not escapism. It is how we stay grounded, human, and capable of showing up for each other. Okay, before we leave you, we just want to share one quick thing. We had plans to do a really amazing Valentine's day sale of our most popular products, our ultimate foreplay guides. And this week, we had a conversation with our team, like, man, should we even go forward with this? We've been feeling the intensity, the sadness of the situation right now. And it just felt like, should we even put this out there? And Xander and I took some time to think about it. And that was actually a lot of what inspired this episode, too, is we were like, you know what? We still want to focus on this. Yes. What's going on in the world is important. Yes. People taking action is important. And we still. Our business. The point of our business is not to, you know, be a news source or to be an activism source. Like, the point of our business is to help couples experience real, deep, profound intimacy with each other.
- [59:07]
Zander Marin
Yeah. So, I mean, what better time than to help support couples in that than the challenging times? Like, yes.
- [59:15]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, we can help you stay connected, feeling fueled and grounded, you know, in that way, we can. We are making a difference, too, and, you know, helping you be able to show up in the world.
- [59:27]
Zander Marin
Yeah. Like, what's the point of our business if we're like, oh, yeah, no, we only operate when times are good. The economy's up, unemployment is down. Right. Like, that wouldn't really make a lot of sense. So. Yeah.
- [59:41]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So we're still moving forward with this. It's. We're, you know, we're trying to celebrate Valentine's Day. It's also my birthday the day before Valentine's Day. So we are doing a really big sale on our ultimate foreplay guides. There's some really awesome surprises and that go along with it.
- [59:59]
Zander Marin
So getting a little better at foreplay can be a really great way to have more intimacy, physical and emotional intimacy. Because emotional intimacy comes from physical intimacy, physical intimacy comes from emotional intimacy. They're two sides of the same coin. And when we are closer, when we feel more confident with what we are doing, when we are helping each other feel as much pleasure as possible, we are more regulated. We are more grounded. We are happier. We are better suited to show up and make positive impact in the world, in our workplace, with our family, with our kids, with everybody in our lives.
- [60:37]
Vanessa Marin
So if you want to check that out, you can go straight to vmtherapy.com foreplay we will also drop a link in the show notes to check it out again. It's. That's the lowest price we have ever offered. And you can even take some of the money that you save and maybe donate it to one of the causes that you care about.
- [60:54]
Zander Marin
Yeah, Great idea. It's a great way to make a difference in the world. And have some more orgasms.
- [60:59]
Vanessa Marin
And remember, orgasms are resistance. Joy is resistance. Intimacy and connection are resistance. All right, friends, I hope you have found this episode helpful. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and. And we will see you next week.