Episode 192: “Is This Normal?” Part 4 — Low Desire Husband, Never Had A Fight, & Baby Talk

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pillow Talks – Episode 192: “Is This Normal?” Part 4 — Low Desire Husband, Never Had A Fight, & Baby Talk

Release Date: January 23, 2025

Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin
Platform: QCODE
Description: Vanessa, a seasoned sex therapist with two decades of experience, and Xander, her relatable and humorous husband, delve into the complexities of relationships. Together, they offer practical advice, candid stories, and effective techniques to help listeners navigate their own romantic lives.

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Introduction

In Episode 192 of Pillow Talks, Vanessa and Xander Marin continue their exploration of the theme "Is This Normal?" by addressing three intriguing questions submitted by listeners. The episode delves into issues surrounding low sexual desire, the absence of conflicts in a relationship, and the impact of baby talk on intimacy. Throughout the discussion, the couple provides insightful perspectives, expert advice, and relatable anecdotes to help listeners understand and navigate their relationship challenges.

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1. Is It Normal for My Husband to Have Absolutely No Sex Drive?

Question Overview: A listener shares concerns about her husband, a corrections officer of six years, who has developed severe depression and anxiety due to his stressful job. He has gained significant weight, exhibits no desire for sex, and refrains from masturbation. While he plans to seek therapy and change jobs, the listener wonders if his low sex drive is normal.

Discussion Highlights:

• Understanding Sexual Desire Variability: Vanessa explains that variations in sex drive are normal and that about 1% of the population identifies as asexual, where sex is not a component of their lives. However, in this case, the lack of desire is attributed to external factors rather than inherent orientation.

• Impact of Stress and Mental Health: Stressful occupations, such as being a corrections officer, can significantly impact one's sex drive. Vanessa likens sex drive to a "canary in the coal mine," serving as an indicator of overall well-being. When the body is under immense stress, it diverts energy away from non-essential functions like sexual desire to focus on survival.

• Couple's Emotional Strain: Xander adds that the listener's situation is understandable given her husband's constant fight-or-flight state. He emphasizes the importance of supporting each other through such challenging times.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa [08:25]: "I think most of us think of sex drive as just an inherent part of who we are... But I actually like to think of it as the canary in the coal mine example."

• Xander [10:30]: "Sex drive is not the same thing. It's not like a survival mechanism... It is a luxury for our body."

Advice Given:

• Recognize that his lack of sex drive is a symptom of deeper issues like stress and mental health challenges.
• Support his efforts to seek therapy and find a new job, understanding that these steps can gradually improve his overall well-being and, consequently, his sexual desire.
• Validate your own feelings and seek support if this situation is affecting your intimacy and emotional connection.

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2. Is It Normal to Never Have Had a Fight?

Question Overview: A listener describes a two-year relationship with a boyfriend where they have never had a fight, attributing it to excellent communication. However, her boyfriend insists that he won't propose unless they experience an argument, leaving her confused about how to proceed.

Discussion Highlights:

• Defining a Fight: Xander questions what constitutes a fight for the couple, suggesting that differing definitions based on individual upbringings can impact relationship dynamics. If conflicts are always managed calmly without raising voices, they might not perceive disagreements as fights.

• Potential Underlying Issues: Vanessa expresses concern that never having a fight might indicate unaddressed issues or unmet needs within the relationship. The absence of conflict doesn't necessarily signify a perfect relationship but could hint at suppressed feelings or reluctance to express dissatisfaction.

• Proposal Condition: The boyfriend’s requirement to have an argument before proposing is seen as an arbitrary and potentially harmful condition. Vanessa and Xander advise the listener to address her feelings directly without orchestrating a fight, emphasizing honest communication about her desire for engagement.

Notable Quotes:

• Xander [19:00]: "What did conflicts or fights look like in your family? If you're anticipating that a fight is like when we're yelling at each other, then yeah, maybe you'll never have a fight if neither of you are prone to raising your voice."

• Vanessa [24:05]: "You're creating this kind of arbitrary feeling rule... Why don't you guys talk this one out, see where it goes."

Advice Given:

• Clarify Definitions: Determine what each partner considers a fight to ensure mutual understanding.
• Communicate Openly: Address the boyfriend's condition for proposing without creating artificial conflicts. Express feelings and desires honestly.
• Explore Relationship Dynamics: Assess whether the absence of fights masks underlying issues or signifies a truly harmonious relationship.

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3. Is It Normal for My Partner to Talk in a Baby Voice and for It to Turn Me Off?

Question Overview: A listener notices her male partner occasionally uses a baby voice in their daily interactions, which increasingly turns her off during sexual intimacy. She suspects his profession as a primary school teacher may influence his communication style but is hesitant to address it for fear of seeming mean.

Discussion Highlights:

• Cutesy Communication in Relationships: Vanessa affirms that using pet names or cutesy voices is a common and normal aspect of intimate relationships, serving as a playful and affectionate way to connect.

• Impact of Profession: Xander speculates that his partner's role as a primary school teacher might contribute to his frequent use of baby talk, as he may unconsciously carry work-related communication styles into his personal life.

• Personal Preferences and Boundaries: Vanessa acknowledges that while baby talk is normal, it’s also valid for partners to have different comfort levels with such communication. Being turned off by it is a legitimate feeling that should be addressed respectfully.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa [26:58]: "Most couples develop a weird shared language... It's really normal to have that."

• Xander [33:43]: "Like, wait, you want me to stop doing this thing that I do all the time and have been doing all the time for a long time?"

Advice Given:

• Address the Issue Directly: Bring up feelings about the baby talk outside of intimate moments to avoid making the partner feel criticized during sex.
• Use “I” Statements: Express personal discomfort without blaming, such as, "I've been feeling turned off when you use the baby voice during intimacy."
• Seek Compromise: Encourage finding alternative affectionate ways to communicate that both partners are comfortable with.

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4. Is It Normal That I Don't Feel Pleasure on My Shaft from Penetration?

Question Overview: A listener expresses that while he experiences intense orgasms from oral and manual stimulation, penetration itself feels underwhelming. He wonders if this lack of sensation during intercourse is normal.

Discussion Highlights:

• Male Sexual Physiology: Xander explains that the head of the penis is more sensitive than the shaft, making manual and oral stimulation feel more intense compared to penetration alone.

• Potential Factors Influencing Sensation:

  • Technique Differences: During intercourse, the stimulation of the penis head may differ compared to other forms of sexual activity.
  • Foreskin and Sensitivity: For uncircumcised men, the foreskin's position can impact sensation during intercourse.
  • Psychological Aspects: Performance anxiety or conditioned responses like a "death grip" from masturbation can affect sexual experience.

• Individual Variability: Vanessa emphasizes that sexual experiences can vary greatly between individuals, and what's normal for one may differ for another.

Notable Quotes:

• Xander [35:31]: "The head of your penis is way more sensitive than the shaft."

• Vanessa [37:08]: "All bodies are different. We all like and respond to and feel different things."

Advice Given:

• Explore Different Techniques: Assess and modify sexual techniques during intercourse to enhance stimulation of the penis head.
• Consult Professionals: If concerns persist, seeking advice from a sex therapist or medical professional can help identify underlying issues.
• Communicate Openly: Discuss preferences and sensations with your partner to find mutually satisfying ways to enhance intimacy.

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5. Is It Normal for My Partner to Not Help with Cleanup or Aftercare?

Question Overview: A listener questions whether it's normal for her partner not to assist with post-sex cleanup or aftercare. She observes other women receiving gestures like a damp cloth from their partners but notes that she typically gets up to use the toilet and return to cuddling without any extra help.

Discussion Highlights:

• Diverse Aftercare Practices: Vanessa acknowledges that while many couples develop their own aftercare rituals, it's equally normal for partners to have individualized routines based on personal preferences and habits.

• Communication of Needs: If additional aftercare feels important for emotional connection, it's recommended to communicate these desires clearly to the partner.

• Routine Establishment: Creating a shared post-sex routine can enhance intimacy and provide mutual satisfaction, but it's entirely optional based on the couple's dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

• Vanessa [41:47]: "It's very normal for your partner not to help with cleanup or aftercare."

• Xander [42:30]: "It's super easy to fall into these sort of unspoken patterns."

Advice Given:

• Express Desires Thoughtfully: Share preferences for aftercare activities in a non-demanding manner, emphasizing how they contribute to emotional intimacy.
• Be Open to Adaptation: Collaboratively develop new rituals or routines that cater to both partners' needs and comfort levels.
• Respect Existing Habits: Understand that existing routines are normal and change occurs best through mutual agreement and understanding.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Pillow Talks, Vanessa and Xander Marin adeptly address complex relationship questions with empathy, expertise, and practical advice. Whether dealing with low sexual desire due to external stressors, the absence of conflicts in a harmonious relationship, or the nuances of intimate communication styles, the hosts provide listeners with the tools and understanding needed to foster healthier and more fulfilling relationships. Their candid discussions not only normalize diverse relationship experiences but also empower individuals to navigate their personal romantic challenges with confidence and clarity.

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Join the Conversation: For more insights, tips, and personal stories, subscribe to Pillow Talks on your favorite podcast platform and visit vmtherapy.com to join their email community for exclusive content and updates.

Transcript

[Xander Marin]

Your partner has told you that they are not open to getting engaged until you have a fight. I think that you fight over this. Yeah, no, no, I'm okay. I'm not saying fight over this, but it's like, well, what is a fight? I think the reality is you feel a certain way about this that hurts. This is a disagreement that you guys have and you guys need to process this.

[Vanessa Marin]

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your host, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

[Xander Marin]

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Welcome back to another round of Is this Normal?

[Xander Marin]

Wow, babe, you didn't start this episode with today we're talking about.

[Vanessa Marin]

I know. You know, you try start. Why do I always start every episode? You should start some episodes.

[Xander Marin]

I was actually going to start. Okay, today's episode.

[Vanessa Marin]

So let's stop. Let's pretend that I didn't do it. So go for it. Let's hear your intro.

[Xander Marin]

Today's an exciting day, huh, babe?

[Vanessa Marin]

It is an exciting day.

[Xander Marin]

There's a lot that's been going on. We're getting started recording a little late today because a number of exciting things happen.

[Vanessa Marin]

A number? Are you including me using my new Dyson Dryer as an exciting thing?

[Xander Marin]

Your Christmas present from me. That's one of them. Wow. So you gave it away.

[Vanessa Marin]

My hair is very straight today.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Vanessa's looking great. She's beautiful with this nicely straightened hair.

[Vanessa Marin]

Thanks, babe.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Glad. It feels good to see a gift that you give someone go to good use.

[Vanessa Marin]

I agree.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And then what else exciting happened today? We were driving home from the gym this morning. We were talking about, like, something. And. And I thought Vanessa was, like, responding to whatever we were talking about and she's like, oh, my God.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, we got some news. I got booked on a very, very, very big podcast, but I don't know if we can say.

[Xander Marin]

No, we can't say yet. But yeah, we. But like, we're gonna be going out there in a couple weeks, top of the charts, going out to wherever it is that they record in a couple of weeks to do your episode, which is so exciting.

[Vanessa Marin]

I'm very, very excited. It's a big, big fun career moment. But today, there you go.

[Xander Marin]

It's okay to say it when it's not the first thing out of your mouth.

[Vanessa Marin]

Today we're talking about our favorite slash, least favorite question. Is this normal? On the one hand, like, I love answering any and all sex related questions. You can never bore me. I will just keep talking about it until the cows come home. Cows come home. Till the cows come home break. I don't know. I had. I don't know where I was going with that one.

[Xander Marin]

Well, you could say, I guess till the dawn breaks.

[Vanessa Marin]

But break of dawn.

[Xander Marin]

Till the break of dawn, though, that's kind of weird because what you're saying is, I'll talk about it for a while, but I will stop versus till the cows come home. Like, I think the idea behind that is that if you leave the gates open, like, the cows won't come home. So it's like you're just gonna be talking about it forever.

[Vanessa Marin]

The cows eventually come home. I don't know. I've never owned a cow before, but I would think that they would want to come home at some point.

[Xander Marin]

I don't know. They might just.

[Vanessa Marin]

If you're a rancher, please let us know. Do the cows come home? Anyways, what I'm trying to say is I love talking about sex. I love answering people's questions about it. But I also hate the question because it just goes to show you all the shame and embarrassment that we've been taught to have that, you know, we get that question. Is this normal? About some of the most basic common questions, like, is it normal that I want to make out with my partner more? Is it normal that I want to have more sex with my partner? Is it normal that I want to have less sex with my partner?

[Xander Marin]

And it's kind of interesting because I feel like when you ask the question, is it normal? Blank, blank, blank, like that. There's almost this built in assumption of, like, just tell me it's not normal so that I can, like, feel bad about myself.

[Vanessa Marin]

Ooh, yeah, for sure.

[Xander Marin]

It's like you're looking for. It's like what you're actually hoping is that someone goes, yeah, that's actually. That's actually super abnormal. So you shouldn't like, oh, no, you. You shouldn't want to make out with your partner. It's like you're looking for validation that the opposite is true.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's like fishing for insult. It's not fishing for compliments. It's like fishing to be.

[Xander Marin]

Or it's like, fishing for someone to tell you, yeah, yeah, you're crazy. Like, you're crazy to want that. You want too much. Like, no, just forget about it. Versus instead, you could ask, is it normal that I want to make out with my partner more?

[Vanessa Marin]

Or.

[Xander Marin]

Or you could ask, I'd like to make out with my partner more. Do you have any suggestions for how we go about doing that?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

So it's like in one of them, it's like you're looking for someone to be like, yeah, no, you're too much, actually. And that's not what. You shouldn't want that.

[Vanessa Marin]

So for this episode, we put up a question box on Instagram. We asked people, what questions do you have? What's making you wonder, is this normal? And we get questions, like, all over the spectrum. But we decided to pick some of the more intriguing, interesting, interesting, maybe even a little voyeuristic ones, because I think it's just very fascinating to get these glimpses of other people's sex lives, like, what's going on in other relationships behind closed bedroom doors. So we've got some really interesting questions that we are going to be covering today.

[Xander Marin]

So if you know me, you know that being healthy is a big part of my life, but I'm not super hardcore about it. I just want to be generally incorporating better habits into my life. And one of those is getting as much nutrition in my diet as possible and more specifically, getting as much protein in my diet as possible. Because the reality is, sometimes it can be hard to get all the protein that you really need, especially if you are pretty active. And fortunately, our next sponsor makes it so easy to do just that. And that sponsor is Orgain. Orgain is famous for their organic plant protein powder. It packs 21 grams of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids. All Orgain products are made with USDA certified organic ingredients. So I know that I'm getting the nutrition that I need without the things I try to avoid, like soy ingredients, artificial sweeteners, flavors, or preservatives. In fact, I just had an organ protein smoothie just yesterday, the chocolate flavor, and it was delicious. And here's a little pro tip. I added a tiny bit of matcha powder into it. Yeah, it would just water, organ, and a little bit of Matcha, and it was delicious. The matcha, like, really balances it out because, you know, Matcha can be kind of bitter on its own, but mixed with that organ protein powder, it was really good. So remember, there are no quick fixes when it comes to your health. If you want more protein, give Orgain organic plant protein powder a try. Head to orgain.com pillow and use code PILLOW for 30% off your order. That's the best offer you're going to find. But you got to use our code pillow to get your 30% off. So one last time, for 30% off, head to orgain.com pillow and use our code pillow.

[Vanessa Marin]

So let's hop right into it. Xander, do you want to read the first one?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Is it normal for my husband to have absolutely no sex drive? We used to have a great sex life, but he's worked a terrible job, corrections officer for six years and has become really depressed and anxious. In that time. He has gained about 70 pounds too. He doesn't even masturbate at all. He says he has no desire to. He's just in fight or flight all the time. He's actively looking for a new job and plans to go to therapy, but won't do that until he leaves the position due to stigma at work with therapy. The union knows.

[Vanessa Marin]

So this is an interesting one because there are actually a number of different ways we could answer this question. So I'm going to start with just the question. Like on the surface, is it normal to have absolutely no sex drive? The answer to that is actually yes. There are people who are asexual who are not interested in sex. It's not a part of their lives. We don't have a ton of research, but the limited research that we do have indicates that maybe about 1% of the population is asexual. And if you are asexual, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is a normal, healthy sexual orientation. In this case, though, I don't think that is what's going on here.

[Xander Marin]

I think there's an assumption that there used to be a healthy sex life.

[Vanessa Marin]

There used to be some amount of sex drive, some amount of sex life. So what this person is describing is a terrible job, an incredible amount of stress, depression, anxiety, not even having any sort of relationship with his own body. You're struggling to connect with himself. And in this case, it makes a lot of sense to not have any sex drive. I think most of us think of sex drive as just an inherent part of who we are. Like our shoe size. I'm a size 5. I'm always going to be a size 5, except sometimes the rare, different brand that I'm like a four and a half or a five and a half. But it's not like our sex drive. I actually like to think of it as the canary in the coal mine example. I need to come up with a different example though, because that's such a morbid, dark thing. But like our sex drive is an indicator of our overall health and well being. Our sex drive is a luxury for our body.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, well, I mean, in a way the word drive is a bit of a misnomer because that implies like it, that it's sort of like a necessity, like, like say eating or drinking or something like that. Where it's like if you don't eat after some number of days you will die. If you don't drink after far fewer days, you will die. Like it is a requirement to stay alive. There is no option, you know, there's no other option.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Sex drive is not the same thing. It's not like a survival mechanism. I mean, it's a survival mechanism for the species, but not for an individual.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So if you, like what I just said was sex drive is a luxury. And this is a really important point for people to understand. Your body is doing so many different processes, so many different things on a daily basis. And it really has to be super intelligent about how it's spending its energy. It has a limited amount of energy. So we've got to focus on like, yeah, what are the specific things that are in front of me right now? So if you're living in a state of extreme stress or you're struggling with your mental health or a lot of the things that are going on in this situation, your body is directing its resources into survival mode. I mean, I think this person literally runs in fight or flight all the time. So your body, his body is focused on survival. It is not going to direct any of its resources or attention or energy into sex drive because it doesn't make any sense. If you're literally fighting for survival, why would you want to be horny at the same time? Like, you don't have the energy to deal with that. You don't have the time to deal with that. You need to focus on these other things. And so our bodies are literally hardwired to direct energy away from functions that it deems aren't as important. And so it's also important for us to kind of like take a look back at our caveman, cave person ancestors too. Like nowadays, you know, when we're stressed, most of the times we're not like physically in any danger.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

But back in the day we would get stressed when it's like there's a frickin woolly mammoth barreling down the plains at me.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Back in the day, there was no such thing as, oh, this, like, I mean, I guess like a brute example. Like, this caveman has a job that is super, that is super stressful that he would really prefer not to have. Like, that was not an option. It was like, you know, it was like, yeah, you are, you are safe in shelter. You have food and water and you're content and happy. Or like, or like, you are in physical danger about to die.

[Vanessa Marin]

So our bodies literally still think that when we get into that hyper stressed, like, fight or flight mode, our bodies actually think that we are in physical danger. So again, it's another reason why it's like, there's no point in you having a boner right now. Like, we gotta survive. We, you know, we need to focus on this. So even though we're not, again, in that physical danger anymore, your husband sounds like he's having a real tough time right now. So bottom line, it makes perfect sense that he doesn't have any sex drive. And anybody who's in similar types of situations where you're really stressed, you have a lot going on, your body's just not going to direct any resources into getting turned on. Now, I also want to acknowledge to the person writing this in, of course that's going to affect you, that's going to impact you. It's really hard. I mean, just to watch your partner struggle and have a tough time in life, that's very difficult. But also feeling like you're not able to connect with them, be close to them, be intimate with them, that's really difficult too. So I want to validate the person writing in too. But at least it sounds like there are plans to try to get out of this. Like, he's actively looking for a new job. He does plan on going to therapy. So my hope is that those things can happen relatively quickly and can start to make an impact relatively quickly. But it's also just a really, really, like a really tough season for both of you to be in right now. If your New Year's resolution was to get better sleep, then we are super excited to tell you about our podcast sponsor, Cozy Earth. They make the absolute softest, most luxurious sheets, and their sheets are super breathable. So you will sleep a couple of degrees cooler, which research shown actually contributes to much better, deeper sleep. If you're somebody who just really loves being swaddled in softness, you want your bed to feel like such a sanctuary for you, then you have to check out Cozy earth. And they're 100% premium viscose from Bamboo Sheets. We have their bamboo linen blend which I really like. I love like that little texture of a linen sheet. So those are some of our favorites. But we have had so many guests, guests sleep on our Cozy Earth sheets in our guest room as well. And they are such fans. People always ask us where the sheets are from. And Cozy Earth has an incredible commitment to quality. They have a 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty so you can't go wrong. And they also have lots of other products. They have the softest bath towels and the absolute softest clothing too. So I've been wearing their long sleeve stretch knit bamboo pajama set. An absolutely timeless little pajama set. They're so comfortable. The drape is really luxurious. Xander got a set too. We both absolutely love all of our Cozy Earth stuff and they're always coming out with new products too. They have some little slippers, some really great like faux fur blankets that I know the dogs would immediately want to steal from us. And the best news is that they are giving us a killer deal. Just for Pillow Talks listeners, you can go to cozyearth.com and use our experience exclusive 40% off code which is Pillow talks. So if you get a post purchase survey, please let them know that you heard about us through the podcast. That really helps. And again you can go to cozyearth.com and get our exclusive 40% off code pillow Talks.

[Xander Marin]

So no, I would say it is 100% normal for a non asexual person to have absolutely no sex drive when you are in fight or flight mode due to whatever the reason. I think the challenge, the problem now is that most challenging situations that we find ourselves in in this day and age are not life threatening ones. And so in our mind we go, oh well yeah, I mean I should still have a sex drive, I should still have a sex life, right? Like oh like yeah, it would be great to blow off some steam. But the reality is, is that when you actually are truly getting yourself into that fight or flight, the human race is not evolved enough. We haven't had enough time of evolution while we've had sort of like non physical danger, high stress things that happen. Like I'm sure that maybe a thousand, two thousand, ten thousand years from now, if the human race is still around that like we will have potentially evolved to be able to handle you know, more like ambiguous stress or like non life threatening stress. But yeah, right now were too close to that era where there was no such thing as like a Shitty job that stresses you out.

[Vanessa Marin]

This caveman has a shitty job. Okay, I'm curious to get your take on this next one. Is it normal to never have had a fight? My boyfriend, 35 year old male, and I, 33 year old female of two years, have really good communication. And because of this communication, I think we have literally never had a fight. We have calmly talked about anything that might have turned into an issue had we not had a conversation about it. And I'm so happy in this relationship. I want him to propose, but he won't until we have an argument, which I agree with, but also like, am I supposed to pick a fight with him? That seems a bit unhinged. Lol.

[Xander Marin]

This. Oh, this really took a turn at the end.

[Vanessa Marin]

This reminds me of the Ultimatums episode that we did a couple of weeks ago. Because we had so many that were focused on getting a proposal. Maybe this should have been the thing. Like pick a fight with your partner in order to get them to propose with you.

[Xander Marin]

Okay.

[Vanessa Marin]

To you.

[Xander Marin]

So let me start at the beginning. I'm gonna say you've been together for.

[Vanessa Marin]

Two years, never had a fight.

[Xander Marin]

Never had a fight. I'm gonna say that's not normal. I'm gonna say, yeah, that, that is not normal. Like, I mean, I guess it's. I would be curious to hear from both of these people, what is their definition of a fight? It sounds like they're talk, you know, like. Because I think, you know, it depends on what your experience growing up was like. What, what?

[Vanessa Marin]

That's.

[Xander Marin]

What, what did conflicts or fights look like in your family? If you're anticipating that. Oh, well, a fight is like when we're yelling at each other, then yeah, maybe you'll never have a fight if neither of you, you know, are prone to raising, raising your voice. But like, yeah, I'm curious what their definition of it is because it sounds like there. You guys have had some potential disagreements. You've talked about a lot of stuff. Now if you were saying, like, if you were saying we've been together two years and we've never had a tough conversation, we've never had a fight. We've never even like had a tough conversation. Like, I ask for whatever. They do it, they ask for something, I do it. It's like we've never had any issue, I would be like, huh, that seems, that seems problematic. Like very. It's very likely that one or both of you are not actually like entirely asking for what you want or need or you're putting up with things.

[Vanessa Marin]

I Feel a little hesitant to use the word. Like, I just struggle with the word normal because I'm like, what is normal at all? I mean, I don't doubt that there are some, you know, maybe a handful of couples in the world who have never even had, like, the tiniest disagreement. I'm sure they exist. But, yeah, I'm with you on the. Like, I would want to dig a little bit deeper and say, like, are you just. Do you mean you've never even had any sort of conflict or any sort of disagreement? And I would also want to ask them, are you holding anything back or brushing things under the rug or trying to really change yourself for the sake of keeping the peace in the relationship? Because there are a lot of people pleasers out there who will go to the ends of the earth to not create any sort of conflict, but that doesn't mean that the conflict isn't actually there.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Or there's even, like, you've created a dynamic where you both value so highly being a good communicator. And I'm putting that in quotes because I think this is the interesting thing. Communication is so important. It's so important. We teach good communication for people. And yet, like, there's the sort of, like, academic or theoretical principles of communication, and then there's the real life life rubber hits the road. Like, emotions are involved, feelings are involved, pride is involved. All that stuff where you can never fully apply 100% like, the teachings to the real life scenarios. And I mean, I think, like, this is something we grapple with all the time. We're both really great at communication. You know, like, if you were to ask us outside of a tense moment, like, oh, how would you handle a situation like this? I feel like both of us would be able to come up with in theory, here's how I would like to be able to handle this situation. And then there's the reality of when it actually happens. And I'm feeling, you know, heightened or triggered or whatever, like, how do I actually respond? Or how do I actually react? And so I do wonder or worry that, like, perhaps you've. You guys have both built up an identity so much of, we don't fight.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Or we are such good communicators. Communication is the most important thing. And so when you start communicating about something that could be a potential conflict, that if one person feels like, ooh, I don't know if I agree with that or, ooh, I'm having some feelings about that, you go, nope, I'm a good communicator. I have a feeling about this, but it's not safe to say because that's in conflict with this identity that I think I have around not doing that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

So, yeah, I do wonder if one or both of you are holding things in. I mean, it's like, who am I to say, hey, you've never had a fight, so obviously there's actually things that you want to fight about.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it could just be that you guys are really similar. You've. You know, life hasn't been throwing anything particularly tricky your way. Like. Yeah, I don't want to say it's not entirely possible, but let's turn to the other part of this question, which is that he says he won't propose until they've had an argument.

[Xander Marin]

I take issue with that. That's weird.

[Vanessa Marin]

I think that is weird.

[Xander Marin]

That feels super weird and arbitrary to me because it's like I'm trying to think of another example, but it's like you've set the bar at an unquantifiable thing because we were just saying before, like, what is each of your definition of a fight?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And this also feels like a weird, arbitrary rule that you're clinging to a little too much and like, you're looking at the world in a little bit too, like, black and white of a way. I get the idea behind it. There's this feeling of, hey, I want us to have a wide breadth of experiences with each other before we commit to spending the rest of our lives with each other. That makes perfect sense to me. At the same time, though, you're in your mid-30s. You've been together two years. Like, that feels like an appropriate amount of time to know. You know, two years to have had lots of experiences with each other. That feels like an appropriate amount of time to know, do I want to spend my life with this person?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Now. Okay. I have a great idea for this person who asked the question, you want to get married? You would love to get engaged right now. Right. Your partner has told you that they are not open to getting engaged until you have a fight. I think that you should fight over this. Yeah. No, no. Okay. I'm not saying fight over this, but it's like, well, what is a. I think the reality is you feel a certain way about this. That hurts. This is a disagreement that you guys have, and you guys need to process this. Like, this is in theory, like, you're kind of holding some stuff in about this. I'm imagining you probably feel shitty about this.

[Vanessa Marin]

I totally agree.

[Xander Marin]

You want to get, you want to get engaged. You feel like everything else is right. And then your partner has this arbitrary thing where you're like, I don't. Like, this is ridiculous. What, am I supposed to pick a fight with you? But like, I kind of am picking a fight in a way. The fight is that my feelings are hurt. It feels like you're telling me like, no, we can't do something for a dumb reason. A reason that I think is dumb.

[Vanessa Marin]

Or I wouldn't say that. I would say that.

[Xander Marin]

Well, yeah, I wouldn't say that either.

[Vanessa Marin]

But the argument is I want to get engaged now. And you're creating this kind of arbitrary feeling rule. You know, this thing that we have to do until we get engaged. Like that's a conflict right then and there. I want to get engaged, you don't. So there's your conflict. Why don't you guys talk this one out, see where it goes. And then I think maybe you'll have your answer on the other end of that.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Because.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, I think this person needs. Sorry. I think this person needs to say like, I want to get engaged now. I don't agree with this rule.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I don't feel good about that. I don't feel good about this. It feels like an arbitrary hurdle that you've put in front of us. And in fact, like, yeah, that it feels hurt. I'm hurt that you're doing that or that you're saying that and like that.

[Vanessa Marin]

It doesn't describe it as I'm hurt. That's kind of weird.

[Xander Marin]

Well, I don't know.

[Vanessa Marin]

I have a different criteria for us getting engaged.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

But yeah, I'd say you actually have it in front of you already right here. So just use what you got in front of you.

[Xander Marin]

All right, our next one is. Is it normal for my partner to talk in a baby voice and for it to turn me off? My partner, male, sometimes talks in a baby voice like a cutesy pet talk completely separate from sex. It seems to be more frequent or at least more noticeable lately. Is it normal that later on when it comes to sex that I sometimes hear this voice in my head and it turns me off? He's a primary school teacher, so I do just think maybe spending so much time with kids is affecting his speech without him noticing. And I don't want to come off as mean pointing it out to him.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so we've got a two parter here. Is it normal to talk in baby voice to each other in romantic relationships? Yes, that is very normal. Very Common?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we're like, cutesy voice.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, cutesy voice. I think most couples, like, one of the best parts of being in a relationship is developing this weird shared language between the two of you where there are all these inside jokes and words that you come up with and funny voices that you do with each other. So it's really normal to have that. It's like a way that we play. We're adults, but we're finding ways to play with each other and be silly and goofy and all that. So a lot of people do baby talk voices in relationships.

[Xander Marin]

I would go as far as to say also that in this case, if your partner is a primary school teacher and uses that tone of voice a lot at work, it would be very normal that that would start to bleed into your relationship and like, that, you know, he might start using it more and more and not necessarily be aware of it.

[Vanessa Marin]

I actually had a different take. I don't really think the primary school teacher thing has anything to do with it. I think he's just a normal adult who does baby talk, like cutesy voices with his partner.

[Xander Marin]

Well, this person does say that it seems to be more frequent or more noticeable lately, like, that it's kind of ratcheted up.

[Vanessa Marin]

I think that that typically happens as relationships get more serious, though.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, true.

[Vanessa Marin]

The more time you spend with each other, the more inside jokes you create, the more you're letting your guard down, the more you're, like, trying to have that deeper, you know, intimate bond with them. So I don't know if it's necessarily anything to do with the teacher, but the second part of it is, is it normal for it to turn me off? Absolutely. Like, it's not everybody's thing. And let's be real, baby talk is a little bit weird. I mean, I don't really love baby talk. We don't baby talk with each other, but we definitely have, like, funny. We'll do funny voices for the dogs. You know, we'll have, like, words that we've come up with and stuff like that. But I also get a little turned off by the, like, too cute. Like, I wouldn't want you being like, oh, it's my little bab. Come over here, little baby. That actually feels really gross to do. But.

[Xander Marin]

But there's probably, like. If we were to rewind the tape on our relationship, I bet you that there were moments early on where one of us, like, said something in a certain way when you're getting used to, like, okay, like, what is cute?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Between the two of Us. Where I. I would imagine. I can't remember any specifics, but I would imagine that. That I have probably said things before to you in a certain voice or a certain tone or use certain words where you're like, ew, yeah, that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Like, oh, I know. Specific example.

[Xander Marin]

I don't love that. And so I've had the ability to course correct and adjust. I think that's the key about developing sort of that shared inside relationship as a couple is it's like that it's so important to be constantly honest with each other about what is and what isn't working for you, because you're doing yourself and you're doing your partner a huge disservice by allowing things to go on that are turning you off. Because, yeah, now you're at a point where this is going to be a bigger, more challenging conversation, because it's like he's going to be like, wait, you want me to stop doing this thing that I do all the time and have been doing all the time for a long time? Like what? You know, that is going to raise these other questions.

[Vanessa Marin]

Do you remember something that you asked me to stop doing?

[Xander Marin]

Oh, I don't know.

[Vanessa Marin]

Tell me. There was a name that I called you, like, two times.

[Xander Marin]

A name?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. You immediately were like, please don't call me that.

[Xander Marin]

What was it?

[Vanessa Marin]

Bunny. Oh, Cause your mom calls you Bunny?

[Xander Marin]

No, that was because that was a pet name from an ex. Also, my mom.

[Vanessa Marin]

You told me your mom. I mean, this was like, a couple of months into us dating.

[Xander Marin]

Well, good for me that I. Because that's true. Also, my mom called me that, but in, you know, my other. My only other, like, really truly serious relationship, that was our pet name for each other. And. And it was in a kind of, like, gross, cutesy way. And so that was probably a little triggering for me at that point in time.

[Vanessa Marin]

I actually remember saying it, and I was like, like, that's weird. I don't really like that that much either, so. But that's like a perfect example of, like, we were both trying things on, like, we're getting to know each other. And I was like. I was trying out some words and figuring out what felt right for me and. But yeah, you jumped in right away and you're like, hey, actually, could you not call me that? Because my mom calls me that. And I just, like, don't want to think about my mom. And it was like a very. I was like, oh, yeah, no problem. I actually didn't really like it either. I don't know Why I said it.

[Xander Marin]

Great.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So I think, like, it's totally fine to share something like that with your partner. Of course we wanna do it in a gentle, non shaming way. But I think, you know. Yeah. Let's try to tell your partner as soon as you can. Don't let it go on for a long time. And I wouldn't even say, like, I'm thinking about you doing this during sex and it's turning me off. Cause I think that'll probably make him feel too bad.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And honestly, it's kind of your fault that you are thinking about this during sex. Like, this is a symptom of you allowing this to go on.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

For too long. It's almost like resentment isn't the right word, but it's like turning into that type of thing where it's like you've held this in. Ooh, I don't like this. Oh, I don't like this so much that now it's like we're having sex and I can't help but think about this thing that I wish that you wouldn't do hours ago. And yeah, like, that. That's on you. That's a problem. Like, you've created this situation and it's time to end that in as, you know, trying to go back to like how you would have done it had you kind of just cut this off at the pass rather than. Because I think this is the mistake that so many people make. They allow things to get to a point, like a boiling point, where it's like really impacting other areas of their life. And then they go in really hard and it's like, hey, this thing that you're doing is like making me really unhappy. Or like, I'm thinking about it all the time. I can't have sex with you. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, where did this come from? How did this get to this point? This feels like a huge thing that was. Should have never been a huge thing. Like, I could have changed this so easily five years ago.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

And never done this. But like, how are we here? So I think it's really important. And.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

And it might be a couple of conversations because he. Obviously this has turned into a habit. Something that's part. He's doing it involuntarily. He's not thinking about it, I can guarantee you. So, yeah, it's gonna take some reminding. But it's like, yeah, hey, like, yeah, let's, you know, just remind her. Like, let's not do the. Let's not do the baby voice.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So what I would do now is I would bring it up at a time, like, don't bring it up right when he's doing the baby talk voice. I would bring it up at a separate time.

[Xander Marin]

And not when you're having sex.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, not when you're having sex. I would say something like, hey, I've been thinking lately and I don't really love us doing baby talk with each other. I would say it in that way. So it's not like when you do the baby talk. I would just say, like, I don't really love when we do baby talk with each other. Like, could we find some other different, you know, way of communicating with each other?

[Xander Marin]

I have an idea too. I mean, because of the primary school teacher thing, I feel like it could be fair and understandable to say something. Like, I've been realizing, like, when I hear you using that baby talk voice, I find myself thinking about you, like, doing that maybe with, like, kids at school. And I'm realizing, like, I want to be thinking about you as, like, my adult husband rather than, you know, sort of like the teacher.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Like at school, like, you know, I wanna. I wanna be looking at you in a different way. And so that could be a way for you to take some responsibility for. I am hearing what you're saying, and I am turning it into this other association. And. And that's a totally understandable thing to hear of. Like, oh, like, I'm. I want to be thinking about you in this, like, you know, like, adult marriage context, not this sort of, like, kid context.

[Vanessa Marin]

Mm. Okay, let's get into our next question. Is it normal that I don't feel pleasure on my shaft from penetration? The orgasm is amazing and makes it worth it, but I go from meh to explosion very suddenly. Oral feels amazing and hand stuff feels amazing. Penetration, though, doesn't feel like anything interesting.

[Xander Marin]

Hmm. This is like, a really interesting, you know, kind of flipping the gender stereotype here. Cause I think, you know, we hear so often from women where it's like, oh, you know, intercourse doesn't do very much for me. Or is it normal that when my partner does X to me, I don't really feel much? And for the most part, we don't hear from penis owners very often saying, like, I'm struggling to feel something during this outside of, like, a death grip situation. Which I don't think this is because they're talking about. About manual and oral sex. Feels really great. So this is interesting because I'm thinking About when we have sex, I'm not really sure that I am able to differentiate. Like, when we're having intercourse, I'm not sure I'm really able to differentiate between, like, oh, I'm feeling this in my shaft versus I'm feeling this in the head of my penis. I know for certain that the head of my penis is much more sensitive than the shaft shaft. Like, if you were to give me a hand job that did not include any of the head of my penis, like, you were just, I like going up, just going up and down on the shaft, like, shake weight style, that I might struggle to orgasm. Shake. Well, because it's like, you know, you're not going, like up and down that much. You're just like, don't get the head, don't get the head.

[Vanessa Marin]

Don't say, you're so short, babe.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, hey, Jake, two hands. But anyway, like, yeah, I think the shaft is not the most sensitive part of most men's penis.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's true.

[Xander Marin]

It's definitely not the most sensitive part of mine. That being said, when we have intercourse, the head of my penis is certainly getting a lot of stimulation just as much as the shaft because it's, you know, the furthest thing in. So I do wonder, what are you doing during intercourse that is possibly different than what you're doing during manual or oral sex? Like, argue when you're having intercourse. Are you really going, like, all the way in and out? Why is the head of your penis not getting much stimulation? So I, I, yeah, I would be curious, like, mechanically, what is going on? Is it possible that, that maybe you're kind of just like rocking back and forth kind of rather than, like, really penetrating? Or are you overly focused on, like, the shaft needing to feel sensation?

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, I got a lot of thoughts. First of all, let me say all bodies are different. We all like and respond to and feel different things. So if this isn't something that, like, bothers you, then I don't think it's something to worry about.

[Xander Marin]

I do think that they are a little bothered because they're saying, it's like my orgasm comes out of nowhere. It goes from like, I'm not really feeling anything to all of a sudden, I'm having an orgasm. And I could imagine how that could cause issues with, like, orgasmic timing and whatnot.

[Vanessa Marin]

So one thought is, it could be that when your partner's doing oral or hand stuff, they're doing a much firmer grip on your shaft. And this could be actually like a death grip kind of Situation.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, God.

[Vanessa Marin]

Maybe this guy, you know, he's masturbating with, like, a firm grip. And you've just gotten your body accustomed to needing an intensity of stimulation that vaginas just can't match. And this is not a, like, loose vagina kind of thing, but it's, you know, the pressure that you can give with a hand, you cannot match that with a vagina. So that might be an issue. There might also be, like, kind of performance anxiety issue. Like, if this was something that kind of you randomly noticed one time and then you started getting into your head about it. And there are some. It's extremely rare, so I don't even wanna, like, really fully mention it. But, like, there are some medical conditions that can lead to different levels of sensitivity in your penis. So I would say if you're feeling concerned about it, it would be a good idea to check in with a sex therapist to talk about more of, like, the psychological and emotional issues that come up around sex for you. And you could do, you know, maybe like, your next checkup that you have with your doctor, just mention it and see if there might be any other underlying causes. My hunch is that there. There's probably not anything, like, really going on, but I would say the most likely culprit is probably death grip.

[Xander Marin]

I'd also be curious, is your foreskin impacting the situation at all? Like, are you uncircumcised? And when you are. So most people who are uncircumcised, when they get hard, the foreskin retracts a bit so that the head of the penis can be stimulated. Now I'm wondering, is it possible that for you, if you are uncircumcised, when you are hard, is your foreskin still covering the head of your penis? Because what I do wonder is possibly during oral sex, if your partner has their hand on your shaft and is pulling your foreskin back and then putting the head of your penis in their mouth, that you're getting stimulation that you can feel because the head of your penis is way more sensitive than the shaft, like I already said. So I do wonder if during manual or oral, because you're literally getting the. The foreskin of your penis is getting grabbed and pulled down, that is exposing the head of your penis. And I wonder, is it possible that during intercourse that's not happening because, you know, the vagina doesn't, like, grab just the shaft of your penis and pull the foreskin down.

[Vanessa Marin]

Like, come here, are you.

[Xander Marin]

You're sliding in and out. So that would Definitely be something to think about. Like, lord, look at next time you get hard, like, play around with your foreskin and figure out, oh, maybe my head is being covered so that, like, I'm not actually able to feel something. So then that might be something to look into or, you know, speak with a doctor about of, like, is this normal that my foreskin is, like, so much covering the head of my penis? Because it's impacting my ability to enjoy myself during sex? All right, our next one. Is it normal for my partner to not help with cleanup or aftercare? I usually get up and go to the toilet as I always pee after sex. Then when I come back, we cuddle. But I've just seen women saying their man hands them a damp cloth or something. I've just always gotten up to go pee. Do other women just wait in bed and wait for their man to get them a cloth? Ha, ha. I like the haha at the end.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay. So, yeah, it's very normal for your partner not to help with cleanup or aftercare. I would say that's the most common thing that happens. There are some partners who do help, and there are some couples who have turned aftercare into, like, a cute little. Little routine or ritual between the two of them of, like, we do this together. I take care of you, or you take care of me. So I would say if you want that, then just ask your partner, like, if that feels sweet to you, then tell them that you would love them to do that. Maybe you guys can figure out, like, what would be a cute little routine for the two of you. Is there something like, yeah, do you want the damp cloth? Do you want a warm cloth? Do you want to cuddle in bed afterwards? You know, whatever it is you want.

[Xander Marin]

A wad of toilet paper?

[Vanessa Marin]

Do you want what Xander does? It's just throw me a wad of Kleenex.

[Xander Marin]

That's not exactly how it happens.

[Vanessa Marin]

It's. I mean, we don't. We don't really have a cleanup ritual.

[Xander Marin]

No. No, we don't. We don't have a ritual.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. I mean, I think if it's. If it feels sweet and connecting and intimate to you, I think it's a great opportunity. It's like, you're already in bed. You're already there. Like, go for it. We don't really have one, though. And it doesn't. I mean, it doesn't bother me that we don't. I don't. It's not something that I would, like, have requested or would request of you.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. So I Think, though, what I would say is it is very normal to fall into a pattern when you are in a long term relationship with someone and having regular sex with them. It is totally normal to fall into a certain aftercare or cleanup pattern. It sounds like you've fallen into this pattern because you said, I usually just get up and go to the toilet because I always pee right after cleaning words. Which, interestingly, the research now seems to be mixed on whether that is actually helpful for preventing UTIs. Right, Vanessa?

[Vanessa Marin]

It's true. Yeah. I mean, research has shown that it doesn't really make the biggest impact. That being said though, I still think it's a good idea to just go ahead and do it. It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't cost you anything to get up and go pee, but it, you know, for some people, it, it does feel like it has a big impact. So it's like, even if it just made a tiny impact, I would say just go ahead and do it. But the, the getting up can feel like it interrupts the possibility. So if you want to do something connecting with your partner, I think you need to be really clear of like, okay, I'm going to get up to go pee, but then I'm going to come back and I want us to do xyz or I want you to clean me up first, then I'm going to go pee, then I'm going to come back and we'll continue this.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. So like, what I was saying though is that it's super easy to fall into these sort of like, unspoken patterns, which it sounds like you have fallen into. And so, so I doubt that your partner is, say, lazy or uncaring likely. What if your partner were to describe this? If you were to say, hey, I hate what happens after sex. Why do you do this? Your partner would be like, well, since we first started having sex, it kind of felt like you just got up right away and went to the bathroom. And so I assume that that's what you wanted to do or that's what you needed to do. And like, that's why we do what we do. Like, but it's also totally normal to, if there's something that you want or need or a new aftercare routine or ritual that you want to get into, that's totally normal to just talk about it. Just make, make a request. Hey, it would be nice if we did X, Y and Z. I think that would feel good. I think that you would be surprised at how easily your partner would agree to whatever it is that you're suggesting.

[Vanessa Marin]

All right, well that wraps up our questions for today. I'm sure we will do another round of this because they're always so fascinating. We had a bunch of questions that we didn't have a chance to get around to today because we went too deep. We went too deep on some of them.

[Xander Marin]

Too deep. A Vanessa and Xander's story.

[Vanessa Marin]

But we'll be back with more. In the meantime though, we would love for you to join our email list community. We share a ton of fun behind the scenes stuff. Our best sex and relationship tips, our funniest, most heartfelt moments. So you can go right on over to vmtherapy.com subscribe to get on that list and we will put the link in the show notes as well.

[Xander Marin]

But that's also the very best place to be, the very first to know whenever we have discounts, sales, new offers, new products. Like everyone on our email list gets first dibs at all the coolest things that we do.

[Vanessa Marin]

So come [e-mail] subscribe and last but.

[Xander Marin]

Not least, we would also love it if you dropped us a five star review on Apple Podcasts because reviews are the best way for our podcast to grow. So the way that you do that is you go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts, scroll all the way to the bottom, smash the five stars and leave us just a super short review saying why you love Pillow Talks. That's going to be so helpful for anyone that is looking for new podcasts or just recently found us and sees hey, these guys have a lot of reviews, a lot of people that really love the podcast. And if you do that, we want to say thank you by choosing one review every single week. And if we choose your review and you write back into [e-mail] or DM us on social, we will give you a free masterclass to say thank you. So this week's review of the week is. Love this podcast. Thank you so much for all the work you put into this podcast. It's so helpful to hear about the personal ups, downs, struggles, challenges and joys that you have in your own relationship. It helps to normalize that life isn't as perfect as most Instagram reels have you believe. I also love the inputs and evaluations you guys share with questions that others ask you or the polls that you share on Instagram. Thank you for all that you do and the honesty and integrity with which you do this show. It's helped me to understand my own self and relationship better. Forever grateful.

[Vanessa Marin]

Oh, thank you so much. All right, well, that is it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week.