EPISODE 201: Couples Coaching Session: They Love Each Other… So Why Does Their Sex Life Feel Stuck?

Summary

Pillow Talks Podcast - Episode 201 Summary

Title: Couples Coaching Session: They Love Each Other… So Why Does Their Sex Life Feel Stuck?
Hosts: Vanessa & Xander Marin
Release Date: March 27, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 201 of the Pillow Talks podcast, hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin introduce a new format aimed at providing real-life couples with coaching to enhance their intimate relationships. They utilize voice notes from actual couples to delve into common relationship challenges, offering personalized advice based on their proprietary methodology—the Five Keys to Everyday Intimacy.

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The Five Keys to Everyday Intimacy

Vanessa and Xander emphasize the importance of their Five Keys framework, which serves as the foundation for their coaching sessions:

1. Communication
2. Connection
3. Desire
4. Pleasure
5. Exploration

Vanessa explains, “[The] five keys are communication, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration. And in general, we tend to find that you have to go through them in that order” (00:09).

Xander adds, “If you're starting from scratch... we would start from communication and go all the way through exploration” (00:23).

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Coaching a Real Couple: Initial Intake

The featured couple comprises a male-female pair together for about 20 years and parents of three children. Their primary concern revolves around mismatched sex drives and inconsistent sexual intimacy.

Initial Intake Highlights:

• Issue: Frequency of sex is inconsistent; months can pass without intimacy.
• Dynamics: The female partner has a higher sex drive, often feeling that her desire dictates their sexual engagement.
• Emotional Impact: The female partner experiences feelings of rejection when her initiations aren't reciprocated, leading to hesitation in attempting to initiate further.

Vanessa acknowledges the vulnerability of the couple’s participation: “...it takes an incredible amount of bravery and we've done stuff to like conceal their identities...” (02:10).

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Analyzing the Couple's Challenges

Desire as the Core Issue:

Vanessa and Xander identify that the primary key needing attention for this couple is Desire. This key encompasses understanding sex drive differences, navigating mismatched desires, and addressing the emotional fallout from rejected initiations.

Vanessa notes, “The primary key for them to work on is desire” (26:00).

Couple's Detailed Dynamics:

• Female Partner’s Perspective:

  • Higher sex drive used as a stress reliever.
  • Struggles with internalized rejection affecting her confidence to initiate.
  • Seeks more consistent connection without strictly focusing on frequency.

• Male Partner’s Perspective:

  • Experiences phases of low desire influenced by stress and fatigue.
  • Feels pressured by the expectation to take the lead, resulting in avoidance of initiation.
  • Acknowledges personal responsibility but feels overwhelmed by the pressure, stating, “I just don't want it sometimes... it feels impossible” (40:30).

Vanessa reflects on societal expectations: “...we've been taught, like, the man's always supposed to be in control” (15:20), highlighting the undue pressure placed on the male partner to initiate and sustain sexual intimacy.

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Advice and Insights

For the Female Partner:

1. Reassessing Initiation Methods:
   • Shift from exclusively physical touch to other love languages like words of affirmation to meet the male partner’s needs.
   • Encourages understanding his preferred ways of feeling loved to reduce the burden of physical initiation alone.

Vanessa suggests, “...if he's like a words of affirmation type, let me think about trying to do something that feels unnatural to me and give him a bunch of compliments...” (35:31).

For the Male Partner:

1. Communicating Needs:
   • Develop strategies to express when he needs personal space without making the female partner feel rejected.
   • Encourages open dialogue about internal states to prevent feelings of being misunderstood or neglected.

Xander emphasizes, “...sharing your needs and boundaries can transform the way you connect” (31:42).

For Both Partners:

1. Setting Relationship Goals:
   • Define what a “great sex life” means uniquely for them, moving beyond generic expectations.
   • Establish mutual goals to foster a deeper, more consistent connection.

Vanessa highlights the importance of goal-setting: “spending a little bit of time thinking about that would be a really great exercise” (29:34).

2. Utilizing Professional Help:
   • Consider therapy to navigate individual and collective challenges, ensuring both partners feel supported and understood.

Vanessa underscores collaborative effort: “It's never just one person's problem... there are things that both of them could do” (40:30).

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Conclusion

Vanessa and Xander conclude the episode by reiterating the significance of addressing desire to enhance overall intimacy. They acknowledge the couple's progress in recognizing their challenges and setting the stage for ongoing improvement. The hosts invite listeners to engage with their new "Deeper" membership, designed to provide continuous support and resources for relationship growth.

Notable Quote:

Xander reflects on personal experience, “I ... live that reality for so many years. And... it sucked. It really sucked.” (40:30)—highlighting the emotional toll of unresolved intimacy issues.

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Key Takeaways

• Desire Mismatch: Recognizing and addressing differences in sexual desire is crucial for relationship harmony.
• Communication: Open, honest dialogue about needs and boundaries can alleviate feelings of rejection and frustration.
• Shared Responsibility: Both partners must actively participate in nurturing their intimate connection to overcome challenges.
• Personalization: Tailoring intimacy efforts to each partner's love languages enhances mutual satisfaction and understanding.

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This episode serves as a valuable resource for couples experiencing similar challenges, offering actionable strategies grounded in years of professional experience. By focusing on the Five Keys to Everyday Intimacy, Vanessa and Xander provide a structured approach to revitalizing and sustaining intimate relationships.

Transcript

[Vanessa Marin]

I realized as well that we forgot we talked about the five keys. But did we say what they are?

[Xander Marin]

No, we didn't.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay. We should.

[Xander Marin]

That might be important.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's a pretty important thing. Okay, so the five keys are communication, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration. And in general, we tend to find that you have to go through them in that order.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. If you're starting from scratch. I mean, if we were starting to coach a new couple in a brand new relationship, we would start from communication and go all the way through exploration.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[Xander Marin]

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[Vanessa Marin]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. I am so excited for today's episode. We are doing something brand new that we have never done before.

[Xander Marin]

Oh, yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

That I think is going to be amazing.

[Xander Marin]

I think so too.

[Vanessa Marin]

I hope so.

[Xander Marin]

I think it's going to be. I think it's going to be amazing for the people that we're helping, but I think for everybody listening, this is going to be so cool.

[Vanessa Marin]

So what we are doing is we are going to be coaching real couples through the challenges in their sex lives and relationships and we are going to.

[Xander Marin]

Be able on the podcast.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, not fully live. They're not here, like in person. It's just us in our little recording studio. We are live on the podcast, but we have stories from these couples and most importantly, we have voice notes from these couples. I have to tell you, I listened to these voice notes for the first time when I was driving to an appointment and I got chills.

[Xander Marin]

The shivers.

[Vanessa Marin]

The shivers.

[Xander Marin]

The chilly willies.

[Vanessa Marin]

The chilly willies. No, I was like. I was like, this is gonna be so cool just to be able to hear real people talk about their relationship, their challenges, their sex life, like in their own words. It was so, so fascinating to listen to. And I knew our audience was just gonna be totally fascinated to hear these stories too. So first, I just wanna say before we share the stories, I just want to send so many props and thank yous and congratulations to these three people. We have two individual people and one couple, which I'm dying to get into. So I wanna thank them because this takes an incredible amount of bravery and we've done stuff to like conceal their identities, we' names, anything like that. We want there to be privacy, but at the same time, like, it's still a really vulnerable thing, like to even share your story in the voice note and send it to us. That's very vulnerable.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Marin]

And a couple of people I think even said, like, wow, this is crazy. Like, this feels really strange to do. So I think just being willing to send it to us was a big deal, but also being willing to allow us to use this in the podcast is such a gift that these people have given to our entire community that we can all together, like, hear their stories, stories, know that we are not alone, be able to hear our advice and feedback and guidance. Like, these stories are not going to be the exact same as what's going on in your relationship. But I'm willing to bet that anybody listening will resonate with at least one dynamic, if not many dynamics. So I think it's going to be fascinating to listen to and ultimately really helpful too.

[Xander Marin]

And definitely stay tuned all the way until the end because if you like what we're doing in this episode, you're going to like the announcement that we have coming for you at the end of this episode. Something very exciting to tell you about. But first, let's talk about reviews. Because reviews are so helpful to our podcast, we got to get people to listen to our podcast so that we can tell them cool stuff and have cool episodes for them. And one of the best ways to get people to know this is a legit, awesome, amazing, life changing podcast is by seeing your reviews when they go look at our podcast page. In fact, we love reviews so much that we pick a review every single week as our review of the week winner. And if you win, you get a free masterclass from us just to say thank you. So if you hear your review read, that means that you've won. And all you have to do is email us@infovm therapy.com or DM us on Instagram and we'll send you your masterclass. And if you want to leave a review so that you can be entered to win for life, all you gotta do is go to the main pillow talks page on Apple Podcasts, scroll all the way to the bottom, smash those five stars, and then just leave us a couple sentences saying why you love pillow talks. All right, so this week's review of the week. Truly the sex ed you wish you'd had as a woman who's Working through embarrassment and insecurity around sex. Even with my husband, who I've been with for 13 years, Vanessa and Xander helped start that journey for me. They take the shame and embarrassment out of all the topics they discuss, really focus on communication and pleasure for all. I love that they are so accepting of everyone and are so genuine. It truly is a sex education you wish you had.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[Xander Marin]

I mean, I see them before I use them on my booty. So in a way, my booty kind of does see. It knows what's coming.

[Vanessa Marin]

Good Wipes creates premium wipes that deliver a superior clean that no dry, crumbly toilet paper can match. And I am super picky about the ingredients that I put on my skin. So I was really excited to see that. All of their wipes are made with soothing botanicals. They're naturally scented, hypoallergenic ingredients like aloe, vitamin E, chamomile. They're really gentle and they have some great scents. I like the rose water and lavender. Zander's been into the cedar and the shea cocoa as well. So if you want to upgrade your restroom ritual, you can grab Good Wipes at Target, Walmart, Kroger, and most local grocery stores. And as a special offer for Pillow Talks listeners, Good Wipes is giving you your first pack for free.

[Xander Marin]

Wow. That's a great deal.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Buy any package, text them your receipt, and get reimbursed almost immediately. For more details, head to goodwipes.com pillow talks again, that's goodwipes.com pillow talks to snag a free pack of Good Wipes. Okay, so let's get into our submission. So what we did is we turned to our Instagram community. If you're not following us there, you definitely should. We're at Vanessa and Xander, but we asked people, tell us about what's going on in your relationship, what feels difficult or complicated about your sex life, about intimacy. And we said we were going to do an episode where we really try to, like, deep dive and break things down. These stories are so interesting, they're so different. Yet there are a lot of key similarities, too. And what we decided to do is analyze these situations with our unique methodology, which we call the five Keys to Everyday Intimacy. If you're familiar with our book Sex Talks, these are like the five essential conversations that we go over as well. It's, it's just this methodology that we've created after working with thousands and thousands of couples and really trying to hone in on what are the key components of intimacy. What are the, like, the pillars, the foundations of intimacy that we all need to focus on?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. What are, what are the keys to having the intimacy that you want? And I think, you know, one of the challenges that, you know, I'm sure most people who have tried working on their relationship have been to couples therapy is that often, you know, you talk about a lot of different things in a session, and you might come away with a lot of different things in a lot of different areas that you need to work on. And honestly, it can be really challenging when you're trying to like, okay, well, all right, so there was this communication thing I have to keep in mind. And then there was, like this thing that we talked about when it came to, like, how we were going to initiate sex. And then, like, there was some, like, stuff around, like, you know, orgasmic timing and technique and, like, it's just hard to keep it all in mind and, like, actually make progress when you're trying to work on all these different things in all these different areas. And so what we really like to try to do is figure out, okay, yeah, of course everyone could stand to improve in a variety of areas, but let's identify the one area that is holding you back the most or the one area where a little bit of progress is going to give you the most immediate results. And we start there so that it doesn't feel overwhelming and so that we can give you some really tangible steps to take to really fire up the intimacy in your relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so let's start with our couple.

[Xander Marin]

Ooh.

[Vanessa Marin]

So this is a male, female couple. They've been together for about 20 years. They are parents of three kids. And the main issue that they brought up initially, so this was how it worked. Like, people sent in a little email description, and then we sent them back follow up questions, and we sent the same follow up questions to all the people. So in their initial email, they said that frequency is an issue. Like, they can go months without sex. She has a higher sex drive than he does, and she can often feel like his desire controls whether or not they're gonna have sex.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. The overall pace of things.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And a lot of times for him, it's like kind of mental headspace. He's really stressed or really tired. And she's been struggling a lot with rejection. Like, she, she does try to put herself out there and initiate and it feels really challenging when she gets rejected. So that was their initial little intake. So here were the follow up questions that we asked. Tell us about the intimacy in your relationship overall. Tell us about an average sexual experience. What problems or issues do you have with your sex life? What do you want to change? What have you already tried to fix things? What does your ideal sex life look like? And also like, just. Do you have any other questions for us? I realized as well that we forgot we talked about the five keys, but did we say what they are?

[Xander Marin]

No, we didn't.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, we should.

[Xander Marin]

That might be important.

[Vanessa Marin]

That's a pretty important thing. Okay. So the five keys are communication, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration. And in general, we tend to find that you have to go through them in that order.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, if you're starting from scratch. I mean, if we were starting to coach a new couple in a brand new relationship, we would start from communication and go all the way through exploration. Now the reality is when you are almost 20 years into a relationship, you're going to be stronger and, you know, have room to grow, you know, stronger in some areas and have more room to grow in other areas. And you know, as we talk to a lot of couples, you know, might be like, you know, and hey, over 20 years, like, we've gotten really good at communication. The problem is not with communication, it's with desire or it's with pleasure. And so it doesn't always make sense for, you know, long established relationship to go back to the beginning necessarily. We want to figure out what's the area today that you could work on that's going to move the needle most for you.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[C]

Intimacy in our relationship. Overall, I think that in particular, I really focus on making sure there's small amounts of touch every day. Some of it is definitely done pretty consistently on my part, subconsciously and just naturally, whether it's making sure that I, you know, touch back when I walk by in the kitchen or while we're getting the kids ready in the morning. But I think I'm also much more focused than he is on some of the little things, like trying to make sure, you know, I give him a kiss before I leave the room or holding hands. I think inconsistent about whether or not he consciously tries to engage. I'm definitely the more physical of the two of us, naturally, in minor ways. And so I think that that's something that we haven't really talked about but could focus on more as an average sexual experience. I would say our. When we're on, we're on. Our chemistry is great. We're pretty good about listening to what the other needs most often. We both work best if takes the lead.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, I'm gonna stop it here. Okay. So I wanted to stop it in this particular point because that sentence, he feels it's best when he takes, like, we both feel it's best when he takes the lead. That stuck out at me.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Because I don't think. She didn't say he feels it like she said. We do.

[Vanessa Marin]

We both. Yeah, we both do best when he's in the lead. And to me, that feels like a lot of pressure. Most male female couples will have that same script in their head. Like, oh, yeah, it just works better when he's in the lead because that's. We've been taught, like, the man's always supposed to be in Control. He's the one who initiates. He's in control in the moment itself. And so. And a lot of us, like, just think that that's how it's supposed to work, but that puts a lot of pressure on the guy to be fully responsible for their sex life. And a lot of guys respond to that by drawing back, by starting to lose their desire, by not initiating as much. So I would definitely want to ask him, like, are you sure you like it best when you take the lead?

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. No, I mean, question for you, Vanassa, because I think this is, you know, if I'm rewinding our relationship a bit. I think we were in a similar situation to this. It was a period of time where, you know, my sex drive appeared to be much lower than yours. And, you know, you had a couple situations with initiation, you know, where the rejection didn't feel good. And we got into a similar pattern where it was like, okay, well, you want it more than I do, so it makes sense for me to be initiating so that you don't have to be getting, like, turned out. The assumption is, oh, well, whenever I initiate, you're gonna be open to it. And I wonder, I mean, did you kind of fall into that line of thinking, oh, well, it's better if he.

[Vanessa Marin]

Takes the lead, for sure.

[Xander Marin]

I just think that that is. That's so common. And. Yeah. And it took me a long time to realize, oh, yeah, that does put a lot of pressure on me. And it puts a lot of pressure on me because, you know, there might be times where I might think about initiating or think like, oh, yeah, sex could be nice. But then it feels like, okay, well, if I'm not wildly turned on, if I don't feel like I can promise you with a hundred percent confidence that. That this is going to be great, then I would kind of feel like, ooh, maybe. Like, maybe I shouldn't. Because it would be even worse if I initiate and we try and it, like, doesn't go that well. Then it feels like, oh, man, then I totally failed. Rather than, yeah, hey, you know, like, we're doing it together. We both initiate. And, yeah, you know, sometimes it doesn't go, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter. We'll try again tomorrow. It just. It felt. The stakes felt so high, and that sucks.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Okay, let's continue.

[C]

I will say one of his greatest strengths is that he's very good at listening to or following the cues from my body and making sure that my needs are satisfied.

[Vanessa Marin]

Go, husband. So this is a Perfect example. Like, it sounds like this couple does not really need help in the pleasure category. Like, that key seems pretty solid for them.

[C]

Yeah, I think that probably answers that question. I don't know how much detail is needed and should probably add that I'm really terrible about voice memos and talking to myself, which maybe makes us a terrible candidate for the exercise.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, I just have to pause it there too, because this was one of the parts where I was like, oh, but this is so fascinating just getting to hear like, hear that discomfort in her voice. And it's so normalizing for me that so many of us struggle with this. Like, even with us saying, give us as much detail as you can. The more detail, the better. We want you to walk us through, like a typical sexual experience for you. There's still this like, oh, yeah, well.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I mean, and also, like, I.

[Vanessa Marin]

Just love hearing that. It just feels so humanizing.

[Xander Marin]

Oh yeah, for sure. And I mean also, we're obviously reading between the lines a little bit. When she's saying, he's really good at picking up on the cues of my body. Like, I'm pretty sure what she's trying to say is that he prioritizes my orgasm. Like I, I, I come consistently when we have sex. That, that's really great. And that's like, you know, misaligned orgasms or orgasmic timing or, you know, orgasm gap is not an issue in our relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

Did you know that millions of Americans grind or clench their teeth at night and most don't even know they're doing it?

[Xander Marin]

I'm one of them.

[Vanessa Marin]

I am also one of them. My dentist had to tell me like, did you know you grind your teeth?

[Xander Marin]

My dentist had to tell me for a long time, repeatedly in my twenties before I believe. God, I wish that I had listened sooner.

[Vanessa Marin]

So the solution to protecting your teeth is a mouth guard. But mouth guards from the dentist can cost you like $500 to $800. So a lot of people are hesitant to do anything about it, even if their dentist is telling them all the dangers that teeth grinding can cause. Now the good news is that there is Remy. Remy makes dental grade professional quality mouth guards without the painful price tag. They are up to 80% cheaper than what you'd pay at the dentist. And they don't require you to visit a dental office. The process is super simple. They just send you an at home impression kit to create molds of your teeth. You send them back to Remy, their dental team will make your custom fit guards and send them right back to You, Xander and I are both on a dental teeth straightening journey right now. But as soon as we are done with that, we are going to use Remy's mouth guards and we're super excited.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, I mean this, this is so easy. I so wish that this had been available to me in my early 20s when I was struggling. I went through years and years of bad impacts from the clenching and the grinding in terms of gum recession and pain. And man, I just wish that this had been there then.

[Vanessa Marin]

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[C]

See what problems or issues do you have with your sex life and what do you want to change? I think the biggest issue is both a combination of frequency and consistency and a mismatched drive. I have a much higher sex drive than does at this point in our relationship. That has shifted at different points. We've been together for a long time, but I think a big piece of it is that when is stressed or over tired, the last thing he wants is any sort of physical connection, sexually or otherwise. Whereas it's a really important release for me. And so trying to find the balance for the two of us has been really hard. And on top of that, as a result, it means that I'm often the one trying to initiate. And the frequency with which I have been turned down became something that I internalized. And I not in the moment can realize that it's not a rejection of me and who I am and his attraction to me, but depending on my confidence levels in the moment, it's really done a number and then also makes me really hesitant to continue to initiate if the answer is always going to be shot down and then also very much internalized that it means if he initiates even though he has never verbalized this and would absolutely say that it's not correct. I feel like I can't say no because then I don't know when the next time we're going to be have have a sexual experience together.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, so much there. So first, like she's saying she has a higher sex drive than him, which I, I wanted to pause to normalize that we all have this sexual script in our heads that the man's supposed to be the one that wants it more. But when we've polled our community, 45% of people said that in their like, in male, female relationships, in their relationship, the woman was the one with higher desire.

[Xander Marin]

In the, in the current season of their relationship, which I is really important to note because I love how she calls out that it has shifted over time. And I think that's a hard one. When couples get into a certain dynamic, it's just like, you have a low sex drive, I have a high sex drive. Rather than considering right now this is what the situation is, and the situation does change and will change over the years. That's certainly been true in our relationship and that's really been true in, in most relationships that we've where we've talked to couples who've been in a relationship for a long time.

[Vanessa Marin]

It also makes me wonder if he has responsive desire. That's another thing to look at as well. And I think about, for him, it makes perfect sense if he's stressed and tired that he doesn't wanna have sex. Stress is the number one sex drive killer. And so many of us hate acknowledging that because we've really normalized stress. We're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I need to decrease my stress, whatever. But we, like, in a lot of ways, we kind of get off on the stress or we at the very least feel like that's just what life is like. Life is stressful.

[Xander Marin]

And I think that we also, in TV and in the movies, we do often see sex portrayed as like a sex as a stress reliever. I think that we see that more often than not. And unfortunately in this situation, for his partner, she is saying that for her, sex is a stress reliever. So she kind of portrays the like, typical, like what you might typically assume, like, oh, yeah, when you're stressed. Like, yeah, having sex is great because it's going to relieve my stress. And for some people it does. But I think the vast majority of people, sex is not actually a stress reliever. It's like, if I'm super stressed, sex is the last thing that I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about how do I get done all the things that I need to get done so that how do I do whatever I need to do to not be so stressed?

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. So I'm already getting the sense that for this couple, the primary key for them to work on is desire. Because desire is going to cover sex drive types. It's gonna cover how to navigate Mismatched desire. And it's especially gonna cover how to navigate being turned down by your partner, how to initiate and how to navigate being turned down. And the middle step too, like if you the one being initiated, how to consider whether or not you're gonna say yes, no, suggest something different that is all covered in our desire key.

[Xander Marin]

And also kind of how to keep a simmer going in the in between periods.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay, let's keep going.

[C]

We've tried talking some, but I think part of why I was so excited about this opportunity is because when I showed the call for couples, he actually seemed interested. And we've talked about therapy in the past and he's been very resistant to it or allowing someone else into our space and to work with us. And so we've only really tried things on our own. And I think something that would really make a difference for us is being able to have a third party assist and kind of give feedback, especially from a professional. I don't know what our ideal sex life looks like other than probably a better communication and initiation style for both of us so that it doesn't spiral into an internalized rejection and all of the things that come from that. So it's not necessarily number of times as a set number, but probably a bit more consistency, which again, it's less about the frequency and more about all of the negative consequences that come along with rejection. I think that also kind of goes back to the problems and issues in our sex life versus in our average sexual experiences that when we do actually have sex and. Or, you know, going back to the term sexual experience, it. We. We have great chemistry. And even in average experience, for us, I would say both of us are really experiencing pleasure. It's just trying to figure out how to connect on a more consistent basis and going through phases of feeling like roommates. But it's more than that because it's. It's about not feeling able to engage. And I. I don't know if I have any other questions top of mind. But I'm excited to even have the opportunity to put some of these very vulnerable points into a memo and go from there. Even if it just means that the two of us have taken this opportunity to exchange voice notes and think about how to take a step at least towards improving our physical connection and hopefully our intimacy too.

[Vanessa Marin]

Okay. I had to leave that last part in there because I think it just shows you the power of talking about this stuff openly. She was just saying, even if this is all that this is, it's just me Making this voice note. This will have been helpful. So I had to leave that in there. But one last thought that I got from her voice note is they need to come up with some goals for their sex life. This is something that we see all the time. Every couple will tell us we want to have a great sex life, but when we ask them, what does that mean to you? It's like deer in a headlights. I don't know. Like a great sex life. But a great sex life is so unique, so variable for every couple. So spending a little bit of time thinking about that would be a really great exercise. Okay, let's go into the husband's voice note. I have to call out right from the beginning here. Hers was eight minutes. His is half that length. It just feels very, like, stereotypical male, female.

[D]

Well, let's listen to his intimacy in our relationship. Overall, not the best. Like, I could be better at it for whatever reason. I can be kind of standoffish. Don't necessarily. Like, I go through phases where I don't necessarily, like, physical touch for whatever reason. No. No real reason for it that I can pinpoint. And then I'll go through phases where. Where I'm all fine. So it just, I guess, kind of depends.

[Vanessa Marin]

I'm super interested about that. Like, what is the standoffishness for him? Like, we're allowed to. We don't have to be in great moods all the time. But, like, what is coming up for him when he's feeling standoffish? And to me, standoffish feels like that's somebody who doesn't know how to express. Express needs and boundaries. Like, somebody who doesn't know how to say, like, hey, I'm in a really crappy mood. You know what, I'm gonna go hit the gym. Or even understanding, like, I have long day at work, so I need to go to the gym afterwards, or I need to take a walk afterwards, or I need to come home and putter around in the garage or whatever. It is like creating some sort of transition ritual for himself.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Or just, you know, not. Not knowing how to express whatever other emotions, you know, they're feeling. I think. Yeah. Standoffish can be a kind of like, oh, this is a term that other people use to describe the. The result.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

Of what might be going on for me internally. Like, it's a physical manifestation of something going on for me internally. But what actually is going on internally. Like, he's describing the result. I. I appear standoffish to other people. I don't want to be Touched. But, yeah, I want to know what's going on on the inside. Are, you know, what emotions are behind that? Or is it just like you were describing, where it's like, yeah, I'm overwhelmed. I'm really stressed, and I need to be able to express that so that I can take action to do things that I know are going to improve that. I will say the fact that he himself is calling out immediately, yeah, I can be standoffish. I can not want touch at certain times. To me, that's super encouraging, because I think a real problem, like a really significant problem that many couples will have is one partner goes, oh, yeah, my partner gets really grumpy or whatever, and it's like I can't connect with them. And the other partner will not acknowledge that that's going on. They're like, oh, yeah, no, like, my partner comes at me in a certain way and I don't like it. Or it's like, instead of acknowledging, oh, this is something. This is like a challenge that I have, it's sort of, oh, no, the other person is the problem. The world is the problem. It's pointing at all these other things and not being willing to look internally at what's going on. He's already taken the first step here by being like, yeah, this thing happens to me. I don't necessarily like it. It happens to me, and I don't really know what to do. So, yeah, let's talk about what you can do to further investigate that.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, and I really want to help him learn how to better communicate that to her, because she said at the very beginning of her voice note, I'm always trying to be intentional about touching him and making those mom connection. And I. My hunch is that he's probably getting pretty annoyed at a lot of those attempts, but he's not telling her that.

[Xander Marin]

Or at least he's not open. At least he's not open. I'm guessing, when he feels that way. And so she's kind of taking this, like, this, like, blanket approach, like, oh, let me do as much as I can in all the times that I can.

[Vanessa Marin]

Which I think is great. Like, she's making such an effort, but she's not getting the feedback. And if we could share with him some gentle ways to communicate to her, like, what his needs are, what he's open to or not open to, I think that would make a really big difference. And it wouldn't leave him kind of stewing in this, like, ugh, I don't want to be touched now. I'm getting really standoffish.

[Xander Marin]

I would also love to know what his love language is, because she's very clear. Like, she's talked a lot about physical touch. She likes to touch him as much as possible. She said that she loves to be touched as much as possible. I think it's highly likely that she is a, you know, she is a physical touch type. And so she is trying to show love to him in the way that she knows, which is touch. I would suspect that he is not a primary physical touch type of person. And so, yeah, I'm not telling her that she shouldn't touch him ever. But I do wonder if she could better understand, you know, what is the way that he really feels love for me the most. And she might want to try shifting a bit to be instead of just like, what is every opportunity I can take to touch him? Thinking, oh, okay, if he's like a words of affirmation type, let me think about trying to do something that feels unnatural to me and give him a bunch of compliments or nice things or whatever his love language is. I think that would be another great first step rather than being like, yeah, I'm doing everything I can. Touching.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Okay, let's continue on.

[D]

Average experience usually starts with kissing. Sometimes surprise, but usually starts with some kind of kissing and building up and then kind of progresses from there. Sometimes it can be aggressive, sometimes it's. It's more intimate. That's probably the. The best way to describe it.

[Vanessa Marin]

I'll just pause this there and say like this. That is a little sign that he could use some help in the communication key as well. I think most, like your average person, if you ask them to describe their sexual, you know, average sexual experience would probably respond like this. Like, you can feel the hesitation, the nervousness. He doesn't really share hardly any detail.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, there's no detail about the how, like, how does it feel? What is it like for us? He went to the details.

[Vanessa Marin]

There's kissing and then sometimes it's intense, sometimes it's not.

[Xander Marin]

And then. Yeah, and then it progresses.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And I don't want to, you know, make him feel ashamed or embarrassed about that because I think that is how the average person would respond. They would feel really uncomfortable and embarrassed. So this is very common. But it is so important for us to learn how to get more comfortable talking about it openly. That's why we're here. That's why we have a business in the first place. But I just had to call that one out. So if you're watching the podcast on video, you may see that we've changed up our recording location. We're recording in our office now, which means that I don't get to be draped in all of my delightful Cozy Earth bedding while we are recording. That's really the saddest part of making this change. So if you haven't heard of Cozy Earth before, they make income, incredible luxury linens. They have sheet sets that are temperature regulating, Seriously the most buttery soft fabric you've ever felt. They also make incredible luxe bath sheets, like super oversized, super plush, super soft. If you're somebody who just loves softness, like you just can't get enough soft, you will love everything that Cozy Earth makes. They also make clothing too. You can literally just be Cozy Earth cozied all day long and all night long. They also have a hundred night sleep trial and a 10 year warranty on all their bedding and bath products. So there's really nothing to lose by giving them a try. Luxury should not be out of reach. Visit cozyearth.com and use our exclusive code pillowtalks for 40% off best selling sheets, towels, pajamas and more. That's Code Pillow talks for 40% [e-mail] and if you get a post purchase survey, let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Okay, let's continue.

[D]

Problems or issues? It's mainly me. I go through phases where I just don't want to.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, it's like you can feel the responsibility that you. He's putting on himself. Like it's mainly me. Like it's my fault. I'm the problem here. And I do think that the. I just think it's coming down to being unable to express himself because when we feel like we can't tell our partner openly, like what we're thinking and feeling, it bubbles up inside of us and that turns into things like standoffishness and resentment and frustration. It's like we don't know how to, how to healthily share that. But those feelings are gonna come out one way or another.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Or it just kind of turns into like the resignation you hear in his voice. Yeah, I guess, I guess I'm the problem. I just, I just don't want it sometimes. And yeah, like, yes, in some ways he is right. There are absolutely things that he could work on that could probably, you know, increase his sex drive or decrease those feelings of standoffishness and stuff. But at the end of the day, it's never just one person's problem. Like this is A couple's problem. And there are things that both of them could do. And so, yeah, I've been there myself. I've been there myself where it's just like, I'm the problem. It's me. And, like, I just have to change. And when you come at a problem with that perspective of. It just. It just feels impossible. It feels totally impossible. And it just feels so easy to give up and be like, okay, well, can. Can we just find a way to make it okay enough as is. And I live. I lived that reality for so many years. And. And it sucked. It really sucked.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Okay, let's continue on.

[D]

Click. Or something. Like, I. I don't. I don't know. It's usually the times where I am. Don't really want to be touched for whatever reason. Would basically like to have more. Be more in the mood, I guess, be more communicative of things and how I'm feeling.

[Vanessa Marin]

So that's interesting. Like, I. I think that they actually are more in alignment than they realize. Like, I think they both. They want the same thing. He wants to be feeling more desire. He wants to be connecting with her more. He wants to feel closer to her. Like they're kind of wanting the same thing.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. This is absolutely not a situation. And we hear. Because we hear this type of other situation all the time where one partner goes, I would love to. I would love sex to be happening way more. And the other partner is. I'm totally happy with the way things are. I don't think that there's a problem. The problem is my partner with the. With the higher sex drive.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah.

[Xander Marin]

And this is absolutely not what's happening in this situation. It sounds like they're both completely on the same page about what they're wanting. They're just noticing there are some things getting in the way. I would also be really curious for him to think about when I am feeling standoffish, when I am feeling not open to touch. What is it that I. What is it that I am wanting in those moments from my partner? If anything, I would be really curious about that because I can totally see how if. If your partner is a physical touch first person and you know you don't want physical touch, it can totally feel to them like they just don't want anything to do with me. But I would be really curious for him. Like, yeah. When he's feeling that way, does he just want to be totally alone? Like, I don't want anyone to bother me. I just want to be alone because, like, that. That might Imply one thing. Where it's like, hey, maybe you should go to some individual. You know, you might want to consider some individual therapy. Talking about, like, yeah, is there. Is there something going on with me mentally? Where, you know, I might need some. I might need some support on my own? Where it's like, hey, I have these ups and downs that are kind of uncontrollable and, like, I need some tools to address that. Or is it that he's like, yeah, I don't want physical touch, but, like, I would love for my partner to ask me, like, how is your day? Or like, how are, you know, like, someone to kind of coax some communication out of me or, you know, am I looking. Yeah, like, what type of support am I looking for? Am I looking for some help? Am I looking for, you know, what is it? Because I wonder if they're just missing each other. Is. She's thinking, oh, like, touch. That's how we get close. That's how. That's how. That's how I feel better. But it's definitely not how he feels better. So I would be really curious if he could consider what is. What is going on for him? Am I. Do I just totally want to be alone? Or is there something else, actually, that would feel supportive from my partner? Because there very well might be. And that would be so huge for her to know. That's why I say, like, there's, you know, know, things for both of us to work on. It's like, she's. She very well may have been appro. She, you know, she may be approaching him in the wrong way for all of these years. She's coming at it with a touch first perspective, and that's just not his perspective.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Okay, let's continue.

[D]

I haven't done a lot because I haven't engaged with it a lot. Again, that's. That's my fault. To try to fix things. You know, tried listening and things, but for whatever reason, it just doesn't click for me as well. Ideal sex life, not just more, but more consistently. We'll go through phases where it will be, you know, four or five times a week for a couple weeks. And then, you know, we're in the middle of a couple months off at this point now that some of that, for this particular spell isn't our fault. She's been sick for weeks and had rib damage from coughing so much, and I've been sick and the kids have been sick. So this spell I can't really pin on me. Her or, you know, anything in between would just. Just haven't been healthy, essentially. But usually I would say not to like lay blame, but usually I would say it's my fault. Just never in the mood or tired or.

[Vanessa Marin]

Or how many different times has he said it's my fault. It's my fault.

[Xander Marin]

It's my fault. That's why I was saying before, it's that. That's the resignation out to this guy. I hear myself in what he's saying.

[Vanessa Marin]

Dang. Okay.

[D]

Other than, you know, more inconsistent. Exploring more of what each of us is into would be on the list of ideal things as well. Yeah. I think that is everything.

[Vanessa Marin]

Oh, my God. That was so fascinating to go through that. And I'm also really like looking at the time and realizing we were gonna go through three different stories. But we took up the entire time on this one. But I hope it was really valuable and interesting, like getting to hear about this couple's challenges. Some of the ideas and strategies, suggestions that we have for them. The idea that, like them focusing on that desire key, I think that's going to really be the most useful thing for them.

[Xander Marin]

We're going to have to do the other ones in future episodes.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. Let us know if you enjoyed this. Please come over to Instagram, Vanessa and Xander. And let us know if you enjoyed this because we've got two other great stories that we'd absolutely could go over in the same sort of way. So let us know. So like I was saying earlier, like, doing this feels so valuable to me because it helps us recognize that there are things that we can do. Like it's. It's okay if you're in a place of feeling stuck, feeling yourself start to shut down. But we really want to share with you that there are things that you can do to get your relationship to the place that you've always wanted it to. To like have that intimacy that you've always wanted to.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And you can figure out which of these five areas should I start with?

[Vanessa Marin]

You know, the reality is relationships are one of the most important parts of our lives. There's actually been some really fascinating research coming out lately showing that our relationships affect our overall well being, our lifespan, our health. It's absolutely wild. Like our relationships.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. Romantic and non romantic. But we spend the vast majority of our time. You know, if you're in a romantic relationship, we spend. And that's the biggest relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. But because we've never been exposed to these kinds of tools and resources, like most of us don't actually do much to improve our relationships to make them better. It's not because we don't want to, it's just because we don't know what to do.

[Xander Marin]

Right. I mean, it's like, you know that things could be better and you feel that. But like I was saying before, where do you even start? There's so many things and in most relationships it's also like, like it's like, hey, things aren't really that bad. Like we're not fighting all the time, we're not on the verge of divorce or breakup. So like, you know, what are we supposed to do? I think most of us think that it's only in those big rupture moments that like we have to take, you know, that, that really significant or serious action. So yeah, like if things aren't that bad, what do you do? Therapy is great, but like it's not always the right fit for every season of your relationship. And most people don't want to be in therapy non stop throughout their relationship.

[Vanessa Marin]

So helping people improve their relationships have the intimacy they've always wanted. That has always been our mission, our passion. That's the thing that we've been working on for years now. But over the last couple of months, honestly more like even a year, we've been realizing like we create these really amazing guides and courses. But the way that our business has worked until now is it's kind of this one off experience. Like you buy one guide, one course from us and then you're kind of on your own. Like go through it, do it on your own time. And like, yes, that's convenient and that's nice that you get to do it on your own time. But there hasn't been a way for us to have any sort of accountability, motivation check in with you. And so for a long time we have been brainstorming how can we do this differently? Because we're not interested in just sending people off for a week. Like just try a couple of these tips. Yeah. Then your life is going to happen. You're going to forget about it. Like what we are really interested in is deep, ongoing, lasting transformation.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, we want to keep, we want to keep working with you. We want to keep making things better.

[Vanessa Marin]

Because relationships aren't one and done. It's not like you go on one date night and you're good for 40 years or like you have one night of hot sex and you're good for the rest of your relationship. Like we have to keep working on it. So that is why we are so excited to tell you about something brand new that we have created that we think is going to be an absolute game changer. And it is called deeper.

[Xander Marin]

That's right, go deeper, baby.

[Vanessa Marin]

Go deeper with us. It is a brand new experience, a membership, a community, a honestly, not to toot our own horns too much, but I think that this is really going to be a groundbreaking way for couples to create that intimacy that they've always wanted. And I'll also be honest, like, part of the reason that we created this in the first place is because this is something that we wanted in different stages of our relationship.

[Xander Marin]

We needed it.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, we needed it.

[Xander Marin]

We mucked around for years and years and something like this would have just been like, boom, like that straight, you know, do not pass, do not pass go. Do not collect $200. But I mean it is, it's like boom all the way around the monopoly board. Pasco, get that $200.

[Vanessa Marin]

So we wanted to create something that gives you ongoing, bite sized ways to keep your relationship growing. If our relationships aren't growing, we're dying. That's the phrase, right? If you're not growing, you're dying.

[Xander Marin]

I mean, it's kind of pessimistic, but yes.

[Vanessa Marin]

Well, we wanted to help you continue investing in your relationship in these like again, bite sized ways. Not a, hey, go for a two week couples vacation. You know, this is like what are these little small things that we can do on a daily basis? So whether you're looking to improve communication, deepen that emotional intimacy, just bring back that playful spark that you used to have.

[Xander Marin]

So yeah, like I was mentioning before, over the years that we've worked with thousands of couples and created all these resources, these guides, these courses, hearing from so, so, so many people in long term relationships. You know, we did come to realize that everything that we teach comes back to these five key areas that we think make up a thriving relationship and a thriving sex life. And so it's communication, like knowing how to actually talk and listen to each other. Connection, like feeling like you're truly being seen and appreciated and you know how to do that for your partner as well. Then desire. So keeping the spark alive even when life gets really busy. Because life does get busy. Pleasure, making intimacy feel, feel really good for both of you and then exploration. So that's like growing together and keeping things exciting.

[Vanessa Marin]

And that's what Deeper is all about. So we use this brand new quiz that we came up with, which is totally free, to help you figure out which of these five areas needs the most attention right now. And then within the membership Deeper. We give you the tools to improve that key and then all the other keys. But we really want to point out, like, a specific starting point.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, let's get you started with the one that's going to make the most difference today.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah. And all the techniques in there are practical and fun. This is not overwhelming. It's not intimidating.

[Xander Marin]

And on top of that, you also will get instant access to our entire core curriculum library so that you can jump into whatever courses or guides of ours you need whenever you need it. Because I think the reality with this type of stuff is that, yeah, you have. Have some challenge that is coming up today. You address that. But who knows what's going to come up a couple weeks from now or a couple of months from now? There's no, like, predefined journey of, like, here are all the challenges that couples go through. Who knows what's going to come up? So it's so nice to just have, like, everything available to you all at once for whenever you need that thing. So whether you're looking to work on communication, reigniting desire, or just looking for some fresh inspiration, it is all there, all on demand.

[Vanessa Marin]

And now this is where it gets really cool and totally unique.

[Xander Marin]

Now make it high tech and exciting.

[Vanessa Marin]

We built Vanessa AI she here.

[Xander Marin]

All right. Honestly, this is. This is so cool, and this is so hard to describe to people. I think people really have to see it, but I'm going to do my best here. So we have trained Vanessa AI on literally everything that Vanessa has ever taught, from all of our paid courses and guides to our podcast episodes, private Q&As, master classes that we've done. It knows everything.

[Vanessa Marin]

So that means you can ask Vanessa AI anything at any time, and she will give you the answer that I would have given you. It's like having me in your back pocket, being able to call me up anytime, day or night. Ask anything you want.

[Xander Marin]

You can actually literally talk to her. You. You can literally call her and talk to her.

[Vanessa Marin]

So there's like, it's. It's mind boggling what you can do with this. And this is why we, like, really need you to just, like, get in there and experience it and try it out. But, like, you can ask, you know, just ask it questions. You can ask for step by step strategies. You can ask for conversation prompts. Like, my partner and I are at date night. We don't have anything to talk to each other about. Like, give us some fun date prompts. You can ask for personalized plans, like, give me an eight week Plan for increasing my libido.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. I mean, you can even customize it to your situation and it will remember who you are and know your situations. You can tell it, hey, this is the type of relationship that I'm in. Here's how long it's been. Here's how many kids we have. Here's what we have tried. This worked well. Here's what doesn't work for us. You know, you can even be like, okay, so give me, you know, give me a five step thing to do over the next couple of weeks and then you can come back and be like, you know what? So like that. The first one was a bit of a challenge that didn't work so well. The third thing worked really great. Like knowing all this. Can you refine this into some more stuff to work on? So this isn't just like, give me five ways to do something. It'll give you five ways to do something. Then you can tell it what you think about it and it will give you five new ways. It'll really, truly tailor it to your situation.

[Vanessa Marin]

Or even things like you don't know how to describe something to your partner. Like, there's something I want to talk to my partner about and I don't know how to. Or my partner said this to me and I don't know how to respond. Like, it is just the level of detail that you can get into with Vanessa AI is truly astounding.

[Xander Marin]

And I mean, we've been playing around with it. The reason we are giving it such a glowing review is because we have been in there asking for all these things and you can't tell when it's like a Vanessa AI answer versus something that you might have written. And the best part about the whole Vanessa AI thing is that it is completely private because we know how vulnerable relationship and intimacy questions can feel. We could hear that in the voice, in the voices of the people whose voice notes that we were listening to. I mean, even some of our closest friends have told us that they've had things that they've wanted to ask us for years and we're just too nervous until, you know, like, they finally got up the courage and we were like, oh, my God, if we had talked about this a couple of years ago, so we could have made such a big difference.

[Vanessa Marin]

There are also so many other cool perks and features to our deeper membership. Every month you'll get two date night ideas. One sweet, one spicy. So you always have something like fun and unique to do with your partner. You get tons of Regular connection prompts and thought provoking questions that you can ask each other, including a ton of would you Rathers? Because we know people love our would you rather questions. Every Tuesday when we post them on Instagram, people are like, don't make these disappear after 24 hours. I wanna see a whole repository of them. And you will get all the questions here. We also do monthly live double date calls. You can join live, it's anonymous and private, or you can watch the recording later. But we're gonna let you guys pick certain topics that you want us to dive into even more deeper detail. And we'll just hang out like friends going on a double date and chat about this kind of stuff.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah, sometimes we'll answer questions, sometimes we'll go deep on a certain topic, sometimes we'll do a combination of those two. Like that one is gonna be really open to what the community who joins, like what it is that they want and what they're voting on.

[Vanessa Marin]

And also there will be a private and confidential community forum so we can all start connecting with other couples who want more from their relationships.

[Xander Marin]

And so we've put together a really special deal for what we're calling our founding members, the people who are our initial batch of people to join the Deeper community. And that founding member price, honestly is going to be less than most of our courses and guides because we're just building this out.

[Vanessa Marin]

I mean we've been working on this for months but like, you know, this is the beginning of this membership. We know the people who are going to join as founding members, like you guys are our real, like real ride or die ready to go.

[Xander Marin]

Right now.

[Vanessa Marin]

You're ready to go. You're all in. And so we wanted to do something special to reward you.

[Xander Marin]

Yeah. And plus we're gonna be add. We're gonna continue to be adding so much to this. We have this to the point where we're like, yes, yes, let's get some people in here, let's start making progress. But yeah, we're gonna be adding so much to it. So this is the time to get in to lock in a price that like, honestly you won't be able to get it like this again. So to see what that is and to join yourself, go to vmtherapy.com deeper.

[Vanessa Marin]

Yeah, we are so excited about this. It's been such a long time in the making. I'm so excited to be able to finally share the news and we are thrilled for you to get in there and to see the kind of impact that it can have on your relationship. So we'd love to see you in deeper. That's vmtherapy.com deeper. All right, well, that is all for this week's episode. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.