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- [00:00]
Xander Marin
This is your fault for scheduling this thing in the middle of the day. You knew that this was a busy day, and yet you scheduled this thing.
- [00:07]
Vanessa Marin
Because I had to schedule this appointment today because you mixed up our schedules. And when my appointment was originally scheduled, you scheduled something different, so I had to move it. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.
- [00:29]
Xander Marin
Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.
- [00:38]
Vanessa Marin
Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today's episode is a listener request. We are going into a hot topic today. Defensiveness.
- [01:04]
Xander Marin
The D word.
- [01:05]
Vanessa Marin
The D word. We were talking about something totally different a few weeks ago, I think we were going over a story and we kind of mentioned defensiveness. We touched on it very lightly, and we said, if you want a full episode about defensiveness, I think we were maybe starting to go on a little tangent about defensiveness. We cut ourselves off and we're like.
- [01:22]
Xander Marin
It'S a big topic.
- [01:23]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. We're like, okay, if you want a whole episode about this, let us know. And boy, oh, boy, did you guys let us know. You really wanted us to talk about defensiveness. So we decided to do an entire episode today all about defensiveness, what it is, how it impacts our relationships. We're going into a few stories from our community about times that left them wondering. We actually put up a question box, and we said, do you have an experience that has left you wondering, am I defending myself or am I being defensive?
- [01:56]
Xander Marin
Because that could. Yeah, there's a fine line there.
- [02:00]
Vanessa Marin
So we've got some very interesting stories that we're gonna break apart too, and just tell you how to navigate defensiveness in your relations.
- [02:07]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna just venture a guess. I'm gonna say something. Maybe it'll sound controversial to some of you, maybe not to many of you, but I think that no matter how much how self aware you are, how, you know, I don't know how enlightened you are in terms of emotional intelligence. Everybody acts defensively sometimes. Everybody. Yeah, everybody reacts defensively.
- [02:32]
Vanessa Marin
Whether it's impossible not to feel defensive.
- [02:36]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's. I think that it's one of the core human emotions, I think. And yeah, it's there. It's one of those things where there's no way that we are going to get rid of it entirely. We can be more aware of it. The more aware we are of things, the better chance we have of doing better. But yeah, I think that, you know, defensiveness is one of those things that as much as we might want it, want to overcome it, we can't ever fully. And man, I, I reacted defensively just like an hour ago on our, on our way home. And we'll talk a little bit more about that when we talk about what defensiveness is and, and how it shows up for both of us, because it certainly shows up. But first we gotta get into this week's Review of the Week. Now, if you haven't heard of Review of the Week, what we do every week is we read a review aloud. Because reviews help us so, so much. They help our podcast grow. They help other people who are just finding our podcast know that we are a legit, awesome, cool, helpful podcast. So here's how it works. If you hear your review read aloud, then you won Review of the Week. Hell yeah. All you have to do to claim your prize, which is a free masterclass, is DM us on Instagramnessa and Zander or email us@infomtherapy.com and if you want to leave a review so that you can be entered every single week, just go to the Pillow Talks podcast page on Apple Podcasts, scroll all the way down to the bottom, smash that five stars button, and then just leave us a couple sentences about what you love about Pillow Talks. So this week it is. Hi Vanessa and Xander. So I've been following you guys for years and it's been so helpful. After doing some of my own much needed work in therapy, I bought the ultimate foreplay guides for my husband's birthday. And oh my God. Our sex life has never been great, but after reading the guide, we've had so much hotter, more connective, passionate sex. For the first time in our 11 year relationship, I thought about how much I'm looking forward to the next time we have sex. I can't wait to keep implementing the techniques. Thank you for everything you do.
- [04:37]
Vanessa Marin
Oh, wonderful review. Thank you for sending this.
- [04:41]
Xander Marin
That's awesome. We, we aim to please with those ultimate foreplay guides.
- [04:44]
Vanessa Marin
We certainly do. So if you've never heard of our ultimate foreplay guides, we designed them to give you step by step instructions. This is not vague advice. This is exactly what to do. In both written and audio format. Over a hundred unique techniques to give your partner maximum pleasure. The exact spots you need to hit for the best results. A variety of positions to keep things fun and exciting and beautiful. Tasteful illustrations that are easy to follow. So if you're ready to level up your technique, you can get Those guides@vmtherapy.com foreplay or or you can access the Ultimate Foreplay Guides and a ton of our other products inside Deeper. You can go straight to vmtherapy.com deeper to check that out and we will link both of those in the show notes as well. So if you're watching this episode on YouTube, you will see that I currently have Maggie, our black pug, on my lap. And that is because I'm an insane dog person who will let my dog do literally anything. And she is very excited to tell you about our podcast sponsor, Chewy.
- [05:53]
Xander Marin
They are absolutely her favorite sponsor.
- [05:56]
Vanessa Marin
They are of our podcast because they have everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. Literally everything, like over 100,000 products, food, treats, beds, you name it. They have the fastest shipping, like one to two days. They have incredible customer service. You can call them 24 hours a day, day or night, get advice over the phone. You can chat with them, and an incredible return policy if your pet does not love anything that you get. They have 100% satisfaction guarantee for a year, no questions asked. We use Chewy to get Maggie and Chauncey's favorite treats, but we also recently started using it for their medications, which our vet recommended to us. She's like, I can sell you the meds, but they're way cheaper on Chewy. And we have just been so super impressed, like seriously blown away by how easy it is and how much money you can save.
- [06:50]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And then you don't have to drive to the vet.
- [06:51]
Vanessa Marin
Chewy has everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy. And right now you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to chewy.compillows that's chewy.compillows to save $20 on your first order with free shipping. Chewy.com/pillows. Minimum purchase required. New customers only. Terms and conditions apply. See site for complete details. So let's kick things off by talking about what the hell is defensiveness in the first place? So defensiveness is the reaction that we have when we feel criticized, attacked, blamed. We feel like somebody is saying something is our fault and we respond by trying to protect ourselves instead of addressing the issue that's at hand. So it can show up in a lot of ways. You might make excuses for yourself. You might not be willing to acknowledge your words or your actions. You might shift blame onto your partner. Talk more about, you know, what they did, what they said, rather than acknowledging your own stuff. So.
- [07:58]
Xander Marin
Or shifting blame to, like, external circumstances. That's. That's another big one. Like, oh, no, that wasn't me. It was like, I was stuck in traffic, or it's this other person's fault or this thing that happened to me totally out of my control.
- [08:10]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So like, a classic example would be if you told your partner, like, hey, it really hurt my feelings that you forgot our anniversary. And they respond by saying, well, but you forgot my birthday last year. It's like you're not acknowledging your actions. You're shifting it to something else. Talking about your partner instead of yourself.
- [08:28]
Xander Marin
Yeah, it's like, not only that, but in fact, it's actually your fault.
- [08:31]
Vanessa Marin
And I think what makes defensiveness really tricky is that sometimes there are valid things that you need to explain to your partner. Like, your partner might not have the full story of what happened, of what you were thinking, of what your intentions were. So there's, of course, like, we all have a natural reaction to want to explain ourselves and give that broader context to our partner. And so defensiveness can get really tricky if sometimes it's like, oh, my God, I totally. Like, I can see how you felt that way, but, like, this is what I was intending to do, but you definitely can cross a line into it. Just becoming straight up defensiveness, where it's. You're unwilling to, like, see your partner's perspective at all. It's like a wall comes up of like, I'm. I'm defending myself, I'm putting up the wall. You cannot come over here, stay on the other end of the wall.
- [09:22]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I know. What happens for me often is like, yeah, afterwards, if I just fast forward for a minute, if I get, you know, a day later or something, I can very clearly see, okay, yeah, there. There were these elements where, you know, I took an action that. That hurt you or I, That I contributed to this or whatever. Like, there are things within my control, and there are potentially external circumstances or other things, things that you, you know, things that you did, you know, things, whatever. Like, there's a whole variety of things that are at play in a given situation where maybe someone is hurt or upset or disappointed or whatever. The thing, though, is that while that's super clear to me later, there's this whole range of things where the defensiveness really presents is in the moment. It's like your. Your body or your emotions or your brain or some combination of the three overweights, all the external things. So that in the moment it, like, you might even be aware that, oh, yeah, there was like, a little part of that that was my thing. But, like, there's so much more that's like all the other stuff. And so, like, this doesn't really have to do with me. Right. So, yeah, it's that protective thing. But, yeah, it's like I've realized for me, it's like this over weighting. It's like you have a scale, and maybe the scale is even. And it's like your brain is just smashes on the other side of the scale in the short term. And it's like you're blind to your own actions or your own part in something until later. And then often the damage has been done by how you reacted.
- [10:55]
Vanessa Marin
I think, for me, one of the tricky things that comes up around defensiveness is it actually can bring up a sadness for me when you say, oh, well, you did something, or you said this, and it impacted me in this way. If it's really different from what my experience or my intention was, there's almost this sadness of like, wow, you thought that I did that, or you thought that I would be trying to hurt you in that. I guess we could talk about the defensiveness incident from this morning. It was a really small example.
- [11:23]
Xander Marin
It was.
- [11:24]
Vanessa Marin
But basically what was happening is I have a really tight schedule today, and we have a bunch of stuff that we need to do. And so I was asking. My intention was. I was trying to tell Xander, hey, here's my schedule for today. It's gonna be tight. And I was trying to, like, take responsibility for that. Like, I had to schedule an appointment in the middle of, you know, when we were supposed to normally be doing other stuff. So I want to acknowledge I'm impacting us. I'm putting a squeeze on us. And I would love to, like, be partners and trying to be as effective as possible in getting through what we need to get through. And so you had this kind of defensive reaction. I think what came up for you was feeling like I was implying that you purposefully would be trying to slow us down or purposefully would be, like, not trying to be efficient.
- [12:09]
Xander Marin
Yeah, you use the word. Like, I'd love your cooperation in, like, you know, getting XYZ done before. This time we're being really efficient. And yeah, it's like looking back, the word Cooperation is a pretty neutral to even, like, positive word. And in my mind, in that moment when I heard cooperation, cooperation, I was thinking, like, oh, you need my cooperation. So, like, is there a part of you that is thinking that, like, typically, I'm uncooperative when it comes to timing? Like, you know, you're saying that there's. There's a timing issue. And, like, of course, the first thing I think of when you say that is, oh, okay, how can I be supportive in helping you stay on the schedule that you need to stay on? And then I'm hearing the thing about cooperation, and my mind just immediately went to, oh, so she's saying, I'm normally not cooperative. Why would she think that about me?
- [13:00]
Vanessa Marin
So, yeah, so there's probably, like, a sadness for you of, like, wow, she thinks I'm, like, uncooperative, and that's really what she thinks. There's also the sadness of, like, why would you think that I would think that you are purposely trying to slow us down? Like, it just, you know, it's this sort of. I guess it's this sadness of feeling unseen and feeling like us missing each other. Of, like, damn, how did something where my intentions were so good kind of go off the rails? And that was just a very small example. Like, we kind of course corrected pretty quickly, but we've definitely had much bigger examples where it feels like it. It totally derails us. So that's. I mean, that's how it impacts me often. But let's talk about some other impacts in your relationship. So defensiveness very often just completely shuts down the communication.
- [13:46]
Xander Marin
Oh, that's totally what could have happened earlier today. Like, if we had not quickly course corrected. If I had not been able to quickly be like, yeah, you know what? That was a. I can. I can see how that word does not necessarily imply that I'm an uncooperative person. Like, cooperation in general is a positive thing. Like, I can. I can quickly acknowledge, yeah, that was a defensive reaction that I had upon consideration, upon really reflecting on this. Like, yeah, I'm not. I'm not feeling that. That's not how I want to be. But if I had been really firm. No, you said that. And you're always asking me that when things are tight and it's like, you don't trust me, blah, blah, blah. You know, if I'd kept going with it, that would have quickly led to a shutdown in communication. We would probably not be recording this podcast right now because we would, like, be upset and not feel like, like, we want to be talking to each other or, like, you know, having fun recording podcasts about defensiveness.
- [14:47]
Vanessa Marin
So it also can really escalate conflict. So, I mean, it can either, like, shut things down or, like, fire them up. I think everybody's had an experience of this where it feels like you just start going tit for tat with each other. Well, you did this. Well, you did that. Well, you did this, you know, and you're just, like, pulling up everything from the past and curling at each other.
- [15:10]
Xander Marin
Oh, yeah. So, like. And this is actually so perfect because this is also another road that our conflict totally could have gone down, because, interestingly so, I could have been like, all right, well, this is your fault for scheduling this thing in the middle of the day. You knew that this was a busy day, and yet you scheduled this thing so I could have thrown it back at Vanessa, and then. I know. Then you could have thrown it right back at me because I had to.
- [15:34]
Vanessa Marin
Schedule this appointment today because you mixed up our schedules. And when my appointment was originally scheduled, you scheduled something different, so I had to move it, and this was the only time for today.
- [15:43]
Xander Marin
And then. Yeah, and I could have. Well, you didn't have, like, you didn't have to. Blah, blah. And I could have. Then I could have gotten defensive about that. Whoa, whoa. No. We scheduled this trip with our friends because, you know, we said that these whole dates worked, and so I wasn't. Yeah, yeah. So, like, that's how it goes.
- [15:57]
Vanessa Marin
So fast. It's so fast. I think everybody literally has an experience of, like, all of a sudden you're. It's like the. It just goes up in flames so quickly. Like, what the hell happened?
- [16:07]
Xander Marin
And then you're like, how did we get here? We're like, 10 steps backwards in terms of, like, things that happened, like, years ago, and somehow that's the reason why this. This. This, like, tough situation is happening right now.
- [16:21]
Vanessa Marin
It also really erodes trust, and it can create a lot of emotional distance between the two of you. If this is something. If this is a path that you go down frequently in your relationship, it just sends a message that you are. You're unwilling to take responsibility. You don't care about your partner's perspective or their experience. You leave them feeling unheard, unim. You know, it just can really lead to disconnect and a lot of resentment, too.
- [16:48]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And then I think then it's really like both partners are kind of constantly on edge. Like, you're. Because you don't trust that, you know, you don't trust in the good intentions of your partner necessarily. Then you're always on the lookout, like, oh, was there some subtext here? Was there an implication here? Like, they said this, but, like, did they really mean that? And then. And then it's like you're looking for it. It's like, you're ready. You're ready to go, and you're just looking for that little spark that's gonna, like, put the whole thing up in flames.
- [17:18]
Vanessa Marin
Absolutely. And ultimately, it ends up really blocking growth too. Like, if you just get stuck in defensiveness, you're never gonna grow. Not as a human, not in your relationship. So it can just have some really painful negative impacts. So let's talk about, like, how do we manage defensiveness in our relationships? How do we navigate it? For me, the most important thing is to recognize that two things can be true at the same time. So your partner can have an experience, you can have an experience. Those experiences can be completely different from each other. And they are both true and valid and real.
- [18:00]
Xander Marin
And if you're having trouble remembering that or accepting that, all Vanessa and I have to do is look down. For me, it's right here. I got and tattooed on my forehead.
- [18:13]
Vanessa Marin
Literally on our bodies, to remind us that two things can be true at the same time. It is an and and this.
- [18:19]
Xander Marin
It is not an or. It is an and. Life is in. We. We live in the and.
- [18:25]
Vanessa Marin
Mm. So it really comes down to being able to see and validate your partner's experience. Even if you don't agree with it, it is totally okay to not agree with it. So going back to our example, Xander got defensive about the word cooperate. For me, the word cooperate, I specifically chose that word. Cause I was like, to me, that implies us working together. It implies me taking ownership for the fact that I've got this stupid appointment in the middle of the day. I'm putting the crunch on us. So you and I, let's cooperate together. Like, I purposely picked that word, and it's annoying and frustrating to me that Xander didn't like that word, and he wanted me to use a different word. So I don't have to agree. I don't have to say. You're right. Cooperate was the wrong word to use. I should not have used that. I don't have to agree, but I can still validate your experience. I can see how that might have felt that way to you.
- [19:24]
Xander Marin
You know what's interesting about that, though? I just. I just thought of this, and honestly, I feel like this is a experience Most people have had with defensiveness, where afterwards, you're looking back on it and you're kind of analyzing, okay, how did I actually react in that situation? What was I thinking? Like, you know, in this case, I was thinking, I wish that Vanessa had used a different word. I said, oh, I wish that you would use can I support you? Rather than, can I be cooperative? Or whatever. Because for some reason in the moment, I was like, oh, well, that. That would have felt better. But I'm looking back on it, I'm like, if you had said, I'd love your support in this, I could have just as easily said, oh, so are you saying I'm usually unsupportive? Is your assumption that if you hadn't asked that I would be unsupportive of us, like, doing this efficiently today? So it's like, yeah, it's just. It's just wild how, you know, like, that's. That the tricks that are our brain and our body play on us in those. In those, you know, kind of split second moments where it's like, in the moment, oh, if you had just said this, it would have been fine. And I'm looking back, I'm like, if she had actually said that without me asking her to say that, I would love to say I wouldn't have gotten defensive, but I probably would have just gotten defensive anyway.
- [20:38]
Vanessa Marin
So a couple of things here. One is to assume positive intent. Assume that your partner was trying their best and not trying to hurt or upset you that goes such a long way, and then validate their feelings or their experiences. And again, this is not about agreeing. You can aim for understanding without agreement, but validating your partner's feelings. So I love this sentence. I can see why you would feel that way. It's not saying, I agree with you. It's not saying I would feel the same way. It's not saying my way was wrong. Your way is right. It's just like, I can see how you would feel that way.
- [21:18]
Xander Marin
So it's like, I see you. I don't feel. You don't say the second part.
- [21:23]
Vanessa Marin
No, but, like, I think that's a really great phrase at helping your partner feel validated, feel like their experience is real, but also you holding on to whatever your experience was as well. It just, you know, it shows empathy. It keeps the conversation going. It doesn't shut things down or. And it doesn't escalate either. Like, people will stop in their tracks if you validate them. Like, yeah, I can see why you would feel that way. And then they're like, what? Like, they kind of, like, still want to keep arguing, but it stops them in their tracks.
- [21:55]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And I mean, I think that the biggest struggle that couples have when you're trying to, you know, like. Like, if we were the therapist in a couple's therapy session, trying to help a couple that is really stuck in a defensive dynamic, I think the hardest thing is you can explain that to someone and be like, yeah, it makes sense that, yes, like, you know, understanding doesn't necessarily have to be agreement or, you know, you can see it, but you don't have to feel it necessarily. But I think that where people get really stuck is they're like, okay, well, like, maybe I can see in the tiniest way how you'd feel that way, but that's crazy. Or, like, most people wouldn't do that. I would never. I would never think that way. I would never jump to that conclusion. 99 out of 100 people would never do that. And so therefore, you shouldn't. And so it's like you're trying to. You're trying to tell your partner that the way that they are reacting, the way that their kind of emotional system is working is wrong somehow. And I hate to say it, but, like, you can't control that. Like, I can't control that for Vanessa, and Vanessa can't control that for Vanessa. That's just like, how. That's how we are wired. Until we have, like, AI built into our brains. Like, that is the way that we are wired. We can't get around that. And so I think that really, the work is in understanding. Hey, as crazy as this seems to me, as. As much as I cannot ever imagine, you know, having that reaction, I can see how even there's that one in a hundred chance that someone could have had that reaction. That person is my partner. That's. That's how they felt right there. And just being in acceptance of that.
- [23:38]
Vanessa Marin
And I would also say trying to take responsibility for even the smallest little piece can really go such a long way, too. And again, it's not about saying I'm the bad guy. It's not about falling on your sword, saying you're completely wrong. But just like, even if there's some small piece of it that you can take ownership of, that you can apologize for, that really will stop defensiveness and arguments right then and there. Just like, you know what? Yeah, I could have done that a little bit better. Sure. I could have said a different word. I could have handled that differently. Like, just. Again, it goes Back to the validation, validating your partner's experience. And, yeah, just being willing to say I. I play a role in these things too.
- [24:21]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And contra another controversial opinion, I think that I want to say always, but we also say never say never say always. I think that almost. Almost. Almost every single time, as much as we don't want to acknowledge it, we almost always play a part, even if it is minuscule, in something negative that happens to us. As much as we want to say it's completely out of our hands. Like, there's always some small role that we play, and there is always, almost always trying to be really generous. Almost always some seemingly tiny and maybe even feels inconsequential to you, a tiny thing that you could take responsibility for. And I like to think of it as, like, this is me keeping my side of the street clean. You know, it's like, Vanessa's my neighbor. She's on one side of the street. I'm on my side of the street. Like, you know, she. It can be a total mess in her yard, on the street. But, like, I. I'm in control of my sidewalk. I can keep my side of the street clean, and I can feel good about that. So it's sort of like, you know, whatever you need to tell yourself. For you, it's like, I want to be the bigger person or like, I identify as a person who takes care of my side of the street, regardless of what the other side of the street looks like. I think that can be a really helpful way to get yourself into that mindset of, like, yeah, I'm going to take accountability for my part in this, even if my partner hasn't and even if they don't or won't. Like, I'm going to. I'm going to be the bigger person. I'm going to do my part.
- [25:57]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, absolutely.
- [25:58]
Xander Marin
And you can feel good about. I think that's something you can learn to feel good about. That was so hard for me at first. And ultimately, it ends up something that you can be proud of, which I think is great.
- [26:08]
Vanessa Marin
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- [27:11]
Xander Marin
Plus it tastes really great. It's like a little nighttime hot chocolate. It's delicious, fun little routine. Plus they have an awesome little frother that you can get along with your beam.
- [27:22]
Vanessa Marin
And I have an embarrassingly good time using the frother.
- [27:24]
Xander Marin
I love that frother, man. It is so. It is so satisfying to stick that in and do a little zing. Zing. We, we talk, we talk about getting a little zing on this podcast sometimes. But Beam really brings you the physical zing.
- [27:39]
Vanessa Marin
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- [28:35]
Xander Marin
Which, I mean, should we say just for a second like that, you know, what is the difference between being defensive and defending yourself? What do you think? Like, because we just talked a lot about what defensiveness is, but, you know.
- [28:47]
Vanessa Marin
To me it's about your willingness to take in your partner's experience and perspective. I don't like using the word defending myself at all. I mean, we obviously use that for this episode. Cause it sounds like nice and catchy that I wouldn't ever say defending myself in real life. I would say, like, maybe giving context or trying to help my partner understand my experience.
- [29:06]
Xander Marin
Or like standing up for yourself.
- [29:09]
Vanessa Marin
Ooh, that's tricky. Standing up for yourself. I think of that more maybe if your partner's being like, pretty aggressive about something. I don't know, that feels, I mean, that.
- [29:19]
Xander Marin
But that could Be a situation where it's like, maybe your partner's gotten too used to you being accommodating. And so then it's like at a certain point, you know, like, yeah, do I need to defend myself?
- [29:31]
Vanessa Marin
So for me, I think it really does come back to that willingness to let your partner's perspective in as well. It's like you're trying to fill in the story for them, but you're also being willing to recognize, like, their experience. Experience. And let that be real and valid too. Okay, so here's our first story. This is something my husband and I fight about on the regular. I'm a stay at home mom. I also work at nights and weekends as an on call nurse. Ooh, that's a lot. I take care of the house and the kids and cook all the meals, Meal planning, grocery shopping, scheduling appointments, everything. And when he has any sort of criticism, I get defensive and it causes a fight every time. Recently, he was getting our daughter dressed and saw that she tore all of her dresses off her hangers. She's three. She did this two to three weeks ago. And I just left it there. And when he came to me, he asked me why I didn't clean it up and called me lazy. I got defensive because I feel like I do so much already. And when he has something to say, I feel like he should just step in instead of feeling like he needed to say something. If he would have just taken the two minutes to clean it up instead of fighting with me, it wouldn't have been a big deal. To top it off, I was working during this fight and he was leaving the next day to go out of town. He gets so angry when I get defensive because he feels like he should be able to tell me when I'm doing something wrong. And I get defensive every time. And I feel like he should just look past the little things because when we have a fight about it, all I feel is undervalued, disrespected, and all around. Like I'm not good enough when I try so hard to be Everything for everyone.
- [31:04]
Xander Marin
Heavy.
- [31:05]
Vanessa Marin
Who can relate to this one, though? I feel like there's a lot.
- [31:08]
Xander Marin
There's a lot. There's a lot in here.
- [31:11]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. I mean, to me, this loops me back around to what you were just saying a few minutes ago about, like, sticking up for yourself. This actually feels like more of a sticking up for yourself situation. Like this. Mom, you are doing too much. Like, there is an extremely unfair. I mean, I guess we don't know what the dad's work situation is. But it sounds like from this description, there's a really unfair and uneven balance of mental load and responsibility like that you are also working. So you both are working. You're taking care of all the household stuff, all the kids stuff, all the meals, all the appointment. Like that's. That's too much.
- [31:53]
Xander Marin
Yeah. All right. Do you want my opinion on this?
- [31:56]
Vanessa Marin
No, I'm sure. Let's hear it.
- [32:00]
Xander Marin
So I. I think that. I mean, I think that you are. You are reacting defensively in these situations as you are as. As this person is calling out. And. And I think, like, I understand why you are acting defensively here. It makes perfect sense to me. That doesn't make it right, but it makes perfect sense to me now. I think that you need to defend yourself, but against something else, not it. You are focused on, oh, like, I want. Like, can't you just look past these. These things in the moment so that they won't become a big deal? You're focused on the wrong thing. The thing. You already mentioned it. This is a mental load imbalance issue. This is a household responsibilities issue. And by you focusing on, oh, can't you just let this go in the moment, you are glossing over the much bigger. Like, you're trying slap a band aid on a flesh wound here and that band aid. Yeah. Like, if he would just allow you to put that band aid on. Yep. You might stem the bleeding for a day.
- [33:10]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [33:11]
Xander Marin
But it's just gonna keep on going and going until you address the broader issue. So, yes, you absolutely need to defend yourself around. Hey, I am doing an unfair amount of. Of the household responsibilities of taking care of the kids. I am overloaded. And this is. This is not fair and is not acceptable. Like, this is not an acceptable partnership that we have right now. And we need to address that because leaving it unaddressed, we are going to keep getting into these situations. I'm not, like, I'm not ever going to be able to take criticism from you when I am doing everything. The deck is stacked against me in that case. Right. So I think that they got to address that then. I think there's some things that he's got to address, too. This idea that, like, he should be able to tell you when you're doing something wrong. That sounds a little like. I'm curious what he would actually say. His perspective there. You might have just written that quickly. That sounds kind of, like, messed up from him.
- [34:17]
Vanessa Marin
I worry that we're getting borderline abusive here because she said he called her lazy, like getting into name calling. Yeah, that's not okay. So this is treading in some red flaggy territory for me for sure.
- [34:31]
Xander Marin
Yeah. But I think that, yeah, there's got to be a discussion of the mental load. Save your defending of yourself for that. Like you have every right to defend yourself in that case. This is, this is not a fair situation. It's not equitable at all. And of course you are going to keep be finding yourself in these defensive situations that, that impact both of you when, when that happens.
- [34:57]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, it's like sometimes the defensiveness can be illuminating. Like you're clearly defensive about how much stuff you are doing because you're doing too much stuff. It's not this random, like, oh, how weird that I would get defensive about that. It's like, no, the defensiveness is showing you something here. So this is, this is a bigger conversation to have. It's not just about the defensiveness. It's how you guys are sharing your responsibilities.
- [35:22]
Xander Marin
And I think that this is one of the toughest things when it comes to mental load and having these conversations. But we were just talking about needing to take responsibility or accountability for your part in this. And as hard as this is to hear, like when there is a mental load imbalance in a relationship, both partners have a hand in that. And as much as this sucks, and as much as you probably didn't intend for this to happen at the beginning, I think that like the easiest way to start this conversation is say, hey, like I've. I can see the ways in which I have allowed this situation to get to this point by taking on more and more by not sitting down and having this conversation with you earlier, giving you the impression that this is an okay split of things. But I'm realizing that that was on me. That was on me for allowing it to get to this situation. I can see now that this is too much, that this is a problem and I'm no longer okay with this. Because if you just come right at him and say, hey, this is not okay, then he will then react defensively and say, oh, how come you never said anything before? Or like you allowed it to get to this? So it's like we gotta preempt that by being like, you know what? I totally have a lot of responsibility in us getting here. I see that that's on me and I am not like, I'm not okay with this going forward. We got to figure out how to split this up so that this type of stuff doesn't happen.
- [36:51]
Vanessa Marin
Okay, that was a Big one. All right, let's look at our next story. So yesterday I was making pasta for dinner. I went to boil the water, and I saw that it was a little brownish.
- [37:04]
Xander Marin
I like the specificity here.
- [37:05]
Vanessa Marin
I know. We found out that a pipe had broken in the neighborhood, and we should run the water for 30 minutes. Oof. Prior to using. Wow.
- [37:14]
Xander Marin
I don't quite understand 30 minutes. I don't really.
- [37:17]
Vanessa Marin
That's a lot of water.
- [37:18]
Xander Marin
Interesting. Why would 30 minutes solve the problem? But okay, whatever. We'll take that for what it is.
- [37:23]
Vanessa Marin
We also decided to run it through the Brita filter as well, but we would need, like, three or four pitchers of filtered water to boil the pasta. So I pour some water into the Brita and walk away to another room while it's filtering. After a few minutes, my husband sees that it was done and pours the filtered water into the pot and refills the Brita. He leaves the room. I come back in and see that the water is still filtering, but don't realize it was a new batch of water. I thought the water in the pot was the dirty water from before, so I proceeded to dump it in the sink. My husband sees me and shouts, no, that's clean water. I said, why didn't you tell me you switched it? He says, why didn't you ask me before tossing it? He says, I'm being defensive about my mistake. And I said, he doesn't know how to communicate. Both of us feel we are each 100% in the right, and I see where he's coming from, but I wasn't being defensive.
- [38:12]
Xander Marin
Oh, defensive about defensiveness.
- [38:14]
Vanessa Marin
I was defending myself because he didn't tell me he poured the clean water in the pot. How was I to know if I didn't see him and he didn't communicate? It's not rare that he helps in the kitchen, so I guess I could have asked. I don't know who's right.
- [38:27]
Xander Marin
Wait, I, like, we are both certain that we are 100% right, but I don't know who's right. I like you. I like this person.
- [38:35]
Vanessa Marin
This is a fun little example.
- [38:38]
Xander Marin
Yeah, this is. This is real. This is, like, the polar opposite of the last one. Wow. Okay. What do you think? I went in hard on the last one.
- [38:47]
Vanessa Marin
I don't think either of them are in the wrong here. It's so funny because I feel like we so often hear from couples saying, like, if you see something needs to be done, just do it. And then here's an example. Example of, like, he saw that something needed to be done, and he just did it. Which is great. Yeah. But then it was like, damned if.
- [39:03]
Xander Marin
You do, damned if you don't.
- [39:04]
Vanessa Marin
You should have told me that you did it. Like, I think that this is such a perfect example of, like, the funny little arguments that we get into in relationships. And all of a sudden you're having this big old brawl, and you're like, what did the. Like, where. How did this start over? The Brita water filtering. So I don't think either person is, you know, necessarily. Their actions weren't in the wrong here.
- [39:26]
Xander Marin
I would say. Honestly, I would just say both of them are being defensive in different ways. He's accusing her of being defensive, but he is also being. They're both defensive because it's like, oh, you should have told me. Oh, you should have asked me.
- [39:40]
Vanessa Marin
No, I don't think so. He just. It just says, my husband sees me and shouts, no, that's clean water. I don't think he was being defensive. I think he was just literally saying, like, no, no, don't throw that away. Like, I filtered that one.
- [39:49]
Xander Marin
Yeah, but I'm assuming he must have said that after she actually dumped it. Like, it was like she was in the middle. Yeah, Mid. Mid. Mid dumping. No, no, but I mean, it's like he's being defensive after the fact, being like, oh, you should have. You should have asked me if it was clean water versus her saying. I mean, I think the reality is both of these people and this. I think this is the important part is they are focused on each other when in reality, they are both actually upset about the general situation that they are in because of this pipe that broke in their neighborhood. And so, you know, it's like they are distract. They're getting distracted by each other and, you know, yelling at each other rather than them both being like, man, this situation that we are in where we have to Brita filter our water and we don't have a large enough Brita filter to fill up a fucking pot of pasta. Like, this sucks. And now it's gonna take a couple minutes extra because I actually, you know, I accidentally dumped it out. We had different ideas about, like, whether I should ask or you should ask. They're both. Both totally valid. Both valid ideas of how that should happen, though. Yeah. I mean, in reality, it's confused by the fact that he doesn't help out very much. So you don't have any precedent for how this works. Plus, you don't have any precedent for it because this pipe has never broken. Before today. So, yeah, I mean, I think this is just a simple. Can you guys be like, you know what? Can we be a team against this problem and be like, hey, this sucks. This pipe broke. We are at the mercy of this pipe, and it sucks, and we don't like it. But, yeah, can we just move on together?
- [41:31]
Vanessa Marin
Okay, let's switch things up. We're gonna go from boiling pasta into latex fetish.
- [41:38]
Xander Marin
Okay.
- [41:38]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. These are the kinds of twists and turns that pillow talks, takes the joys.
- [41:42]
Xander Marin
Of our life, our business. I love it.
- [41:45]
Vanessa Marin
Okay. My partner is exploring a fetish in latex. I wanted to be supportive, so for Christmas, I asked him to buy me an outfit that he would like me to wear. He gave me a website that specialized, and when I saw it, I made a comment about it being a lot, purely meaning that it was quite overwhelming at first. This made him a bit defensive and upset because he thought this was me saying I didn't want to get involved or was judging his choice. I had to really talk him down and remind him that actually, this was a poor choice of words.
- [42:14]
Xander Marin
Oh, this is a good one. I mean, I think that this is one where I think that both of them could just work on getting to understanding rather than agreement, necessarily, because I think that, like, I totally understand how. How it makes perfect sense that he would act a bit defensively. You know, he is. He's leaning into a new kink. He's probably working through some shame, some embarrassment around it. And so just hearing his partner say, oh, this is a lot, of course, I can understand how in the moment, he might think, oh, you're telling me I'm a lot. My kink is a lot. This is too much for you. I already maybe have some internalized shame about this that I'm working through, where it's like, oh, so you're not supportive of me. You wish that I wasn't like this. You wish I didn't like this. So, of course, all these things can come up. I mean, and I think this is a great example of where, like, the goal is not, like, to never be defensive. The goal is to understand why we are defensive. And I think the greatest gift that we can give to a partner who's acting defensively is be like, hey, I can totally understand how you reacted defensively. I get it that, you know, there's this shame or this embarrassment. I get it that, you know, it felt momentarily like I was saying something that, you know, I wasn't intending to say. You know, here is what I was Intending to say, I can totally understand how you felt that way, and I hope that you can understand how that's not what I was intending and that, you know, therefore, it is not how I'm feeling going forward. Like, I am not actually judging your kink. I'm not saying that, you know, you're too much for me or any of these things. I think, though, that, yeah, what I'm worried about at the end of this, the person is saying, I really had to talk him down and remind him that actually, this was a poor choice of words. I'm a little worried that this person is kind of trying to brush over his understandable Kind of embarrassment or, like, the understandableness of his defensive reaction and be like, no, you shouldn't have felt that way, because as soon as I said, oh, that was a poor choice of words, that it should have erased all that hurt, I think we've gotten into this trouble a lot. Or, you know, I have, because I am a very. Compared to you, I'm a more quick to apologize person. So I will see that I've hurt you by something that I've said, and I'll be, oh, my God, that's. That was such a poor choice of words. Or I didn't. I didn't mean. I. I meant something else. I'm so sorry I said that word. And in my mind, I'm like, I said the apology now she has to stop feeling that way, but she'll still be feeling upset. She'll still be processing those feelings. And for me, I've had to come to realize, oh, yeah, no, you know, she had the experience that she had. She's gonna feel how she feels. There's nothing that I can say that can change that. I can't go back in time and change the words. So therefore, I can't go back in time and erase that. The whatever feelings it is that Vanessa had. So I think that's really true in this situation. And so I think, you know, person writing in, I would love for you to try to find a little more patience with your partner and be like, hey, yeah, of course he felt all these things. And it's gonna take him some time to process this. He's literally in the midst of exploring this kink and kind of processing all this stuff. So we can't expect a just boom. Oh, I'm sorry. Cool. Slate's wiped clean.
- [45:44]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. Yeah, it can take some time. I'm with you on this one. I totally understand why that brought up feeling defensive for him. Like, it's a sensitive thing. And to hear hearing, it's a lot like, I totally understand how it went to a. He felt judged and felt upset and. Yeah, I think it's just. It's something. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of time to let your partner feel their feelings and the feelings will dissipate once they feel their feelings. All right, so if you have ever wondered, am I being defensive or just defending myself now, you don't have to guess and you don't have to wait for us to do defensiveness part two. We have a very cool tool that you can use, Vanessa AI. What? So if you haven't heard about this, we just launched our brand new membership called Deeper. And Vanessa AI is just one of the many powerful tools inside. It might be my favorite one though. It's really cool.
- [46:44]
Xander Marin
It's pretty awesome. And like, we are only beginning to scratch the surface on what is going to be possible with this.
- [46:50]
Vanessa Marin
So what we did to build Vanessa AI is we trained an AI model with literally everything I have ever created.
- [46:59]
Xander Marin
Yeah, everything you ever created or written or said.
- [47:02]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [47:03]
Xander Marin
On that's like, that's like publicly available.
- [47:05]
Vanessa Marin
Every course, every guide, every podcast, private Q&As with our community, like, everything. So we trained it on all of my techniques and ideas and wisdom. And we are giving you complete access to Vanessa AI if you join Deeper.
- [47:25]
Xander Marin
And to be clear, it's also been trained on, I think on everything I have said.
- [47:28]
Vanessa Marin
True. Yeah. I just.
- [47:30]
Xander Marin
It's in Vanessa's voice though, because we.
- [47:32]
Vanessa Marin
You know, we can only do one. Maybe we'll do a Xander AI in the future too, but for now, we could only do one. So it is just this absolutely incredible tool that you can use to get expert advice to get tools for your relationship. You can ask it so many questions. You can ask.
- [47:52]
Xander Marin
You can ask it like any question.
- [47:53]
Vanessa Marin
Anything.
- [47:53]
Xander Marin
Sky's the limit.
- [47:54]
Vanessa Marin
Anything you want you could say like, hey, my partner and I are having date night and last time we had date night, we had nothing to talk about. So, like, give me some interesting conversation prompts.
- [48:02]
Xander Marin
You can give it more details about your relationship, your interests stuff, and do things that are happening for you and it will give you even better ideas for things. Like it can be give you general stuff. It can also give you as specific advice or suggestions or tips as you are as you are willing to to get based on how much detail you're. You're wanting to give it.
- [48:25]
Vanessa Marin
You could ask it to give you tools and strategies for developing better body confidence, for learning how to Give a better blowjob. You can say, I want to initiate with my partner, but I don't know what to do. You could, let's say you and your partner got defensive and had a fight. You could turn to Vanessa AI and say, how do we repair, how do we fix this fight? Like literally anything. It could even make, you could say, like, come up with an eight week plan to help my partner and I feel closer to each other.
- [48:52]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And then, and you can literally, then during those eight weeks, you can tell it, it, hey, these things really worked. These things you suggested haven't been working so well. Like tailor, continue to tailor the plan based on what's working and what's not working in my relationship. And yeah, I mean like it, it learns about who you are, what, who you, what you are into, what your partner's into, what works for each of you. So it can all, all it can do is give you better and better advice. I mean, it's like, it's like literally being a client of Vanessa's. Like if you were to see vanessa.
- [49:27]
Vanessa Marin
Because you can 247 access.
- [49:29]
Xander Marin
Yeah.
- [49:30]
Vanessa Marin
Because you were a client, you weren't. You were seeing me for 50 minutes one time a week. That was it. But this is like literally I'm just in your back pocket. Any moment that you have a question that you're feeling unsure, that you want an idea, a resource, like, it's there.
- [49:44]
Xander Marin
Yeah.
- [49:44]
Vanessa Marin
You can type immediately.
- [49:45]
Xander Marin
You can, you can chat via like text type with it. You can also talk to it and it will talk. Vanessa, Vanessa, Vanessa AI will talk back to you.
- [49:55]
Vanessa Marin
It's really wild. I mean, it's just, it's absolutely mind boggling technology. We've been playing with it. I've had my family play with it. Like everybody is just. Everybody's minds have been blown by what it is capable of. It's so freaking cool. So I cannot wait for you to try it out yourself. It's just, I mean it's, it's revolutionary. It's totally game changing. It's a completely different way of getting tools, resources, help than anything that has ever existed. It's so cool.
- [50:25]
Xander Marin
Yeah, we're just jumping in, we're just jumping in head first. With the new technology, I know we could be resistant to it or we could lean into it and get ahead of the curve. And I think that if you are willing to try this out, the sky's the limit for how much help you can get from this, how much support you can get from this.
- [50:47]
Vanessa Marin
Also, I want to mention it's totally private. Like, I know it can be really vulnerable asking these questions. That was actually one of the reasons I stopped seeing couples one on one, because I knew, like, it's just such a tough ask to get people to come in here in person and talk about all these details, these incredibly intimate details of their lives. So it's totally private. You can just ask it, you know, talk to it whenever you want. And it's just, just between the two of you. So you can check that out@vmtherapy.com deeper and again, that is just one small part of what Deeper is all about. Like, there's so much.
- [51:22]
Xander Marin
Yeah.
- [51:22]
Vanessa Marin
So much more.
- [51:23]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I mean this is, this membership is really the culmination of everything that we have done over the last many years. It, you know, it. You can get access to almost all of our courses and our guides are kind of like five Keys to Lasting Intimacy methodology that we think is really the game changing structure for how to improve your relationship piece by piece, day by day. Kind of like getting the most bang for your buck. And that's like, we walk you through that in this membership. Plus we're going to be showing up live every month. We're going to be in there chatting in the community section. Like there's just so much. We're so excited about this.
- [52:07]
Vanessa Marin
So once again, you can go right over to vmtherapy.com deeper to check that out and we'll also have that link for you in the show notes.
- [52:17]
Xander Marin
All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Hopefully you did not get defensive listening to this episode, but if you did, just take a deep breath and join us again next week because we release new episodes every Thursday.