EPISODE 209: Mental Load: The #1 Desire Killer

Summary

Pillow Talks Podcast Summary: Episode 209 – "Mental Load: The #1 Desire Killer"

In Episode 209 of the Pillow Talks podcast, hosts Vanessa and Xander Marin delve into the pervasive issue of mental load and its profound impact on romantic relationships and sexual desire. Drawing from community feedback and their professional expertise, Vanessa, a seasoned sex therapist, and Xander, her relatable and humorous partner, offer insightful discussions and practical strategies to help couples navigate and mitigate the challenges posed by mental load.

Understanding Mental Load

The episode begins with Vanessa highlighting the gravity of mental load imbalances in relationships. She shares a poignant quote from a listener:

"My husband will never, ever understand how exhausted I am, how much I think about and handle silently. I feel unseen and unappreciated." [00:00]

Vanessa clarifies that mental load is "the invisible labor that goes into running a household and family," encompassing the anticipation, organization, and management of daily tasks beyond the physical chores themselves [14:44]. Unlike tangible chores, mental load involves constant cognitive effort to ensure the smooth functioning of a household, from meal planning to coordinating schedules.

The Severe Impact of Mental Load on Relationships and Desire

Vanessa and Xander discuss how an overwhelming mental load can transform sex from an intimate act into a dreaded chore. Responding to an Instagram poll where 86% of participants admitted that sex feels like a chore, Vanessa emphasizes that this isn't merely about making sex more manageable but addressing the overwhelming mental tasks that sap energy and desire [03:45].

Xander adds that when mental load is excessive, it "becomes a constant ticker tape going in your head of all these different things that you have to remember," leaving little room for intimacy [19:33]. The duo underscores that mental exhaustion leads to feelings of resentment and detachment, making quality sexual connections nearly impossible.

Gender Roles and Socialization

A significant portion of mental load disproportionately falls on women, a consequence of societal "socialization" that teaches women to prioritize household management and emotional labor [17:34]. Vanessa points out that:

"Research shows that women carry the vast majority of the mental load." [17:34]

Xander explains how traditional gender roles exacerbate this imbalance, with men often feeling solely responsible for initiating and managing sexual intimacy [17:52]. This division not only burdens women but also traps men in stereotypical roles, hindering open communication and shared responsibility.

Coping Strategies: Equitable Distribution of Mental Load

The hosts advocate for an equitable (not necessarily equal) distribution of mental load between partners. They stress the importance of open communication and shared planning to ensure that both partners recognize and appreciate each other's contributions [39:33]. Vanessa introduces their Mental Load Workbook, a tool designed to help couples identify and balance their responsibilities effectively [43:54].

Xander emphasizes that equity in sharing mental load varies based on each couple's unique circumstances, such as work schedules and family dynamics. The key is transparency and mutual understanding, allowing both partners to feel valued and recognized for their efforts.

Audience Insights: Listener Feedback

Throughout the episode, Vanessa and Xander share heartfelt testimonials from listeners who have experienced the detrimental effects of mental load:

• "It makes me shut down. I get snippy and critical." [26:09]
• "I feel extremely bitter about his outdated gender roles." [26:09]
• "81% of women said mental load significantly decreases their desire." [31:11]

These insights underscore the widespread nature of the issue and the urgent need for effective solutions.

Practical Solutions: Mental Load Workbook and Deeper Membership

To assist listeners in addressing mental load, Vanessa and Xander introduce their Mental Load Workbook, currently available for purchase but soon transitioning to their Deeper membership program [39:33]. This workbook provides structured exercises to help couples evaluate and redistribute their mental responsibilities equitably.

Additionally, they offer:

• Five-Day Challenge: A guided program within the Deeper membership that walks couples through the workbook, fostering accountability and structured planning [58:30].
• Double Date Sessions: Monthly topics discussed in a shared format to encourage open dialogue and collective problem-solving [58:32].

Addressing Common Challenges: Listener Questions

The episode features a segment where Vanessa and Xander respond to listener questions, providing personalized advice. Key takeaways include:

1. Making Mental Load Visible: For partners who struggle to grasp the concept, Vanessa suggests detailing specific tasks and comparing them to workplace responsibilities to highlight the burden [44:07].

2. Encouraging Initiative: In scenarios where one partner only assists when asked, the hosts recommend creating a transparent and accountable plan to ensure proactive participation [49:57].

3. Challenging Gender Stereotypes: Addressing the misconception that being a stay-at-home parent equates to an easy job, Vanessa and Xander stress the need to recognize the extensive labor involved and the importance of shared support, even in traditional roles [53:03].

Conclusion: Encouragement to Address Mental Load

Vanessa and Xander conclude by urging couples to confront mental load issues proactively. They emphasize that ignoring these imbalances only leads to deeper resentment and potential relationship dissolution [28:24]. By utilizing their resources and fostering open communication, couples can create a more balanced and fulfilling partnership, enhancing both their emotional and sexual intimacy.

For those interested in tackling mental load within their relationships, Vanessa and Xander invite listeners to explore their Mental Load Workbook and join the Deeper membership to access comprehensive resources and community support.

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Notable Quotes:

• "And you have so many chores, your to-do list is so long that you don't have the ability to just, like, have sex when you might want to." — Xander [05:19]
• "It's never ending. It's all encompassing for so many people." — Vanessa [19:33]
• "Mental load is exhausting. It never gets better on its own." — Xander [30:35]

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Resources Mentioned:

• Mental Load Workbook: Available until May 25th, before moving to the Deeper membership.
• Deeper Membership: Offers the Mental Load Workbook and additional resources.
• Best Week Ever Course: A seven-day connection-boosting program at vmtherapy.com.
• Dipsea Stories: Spicy audiobooks available at dipseastories.com/pillow.
• Alloy Women's Health: Menopause treatments at myalloy.com/pillow.

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This episode of Pillow Talks serves as a critical resource for couples seeking to understand and manage the invisible burdens of mental load, ultimately fostering healthier and more intimate relationships.

Transcript

[A]

My husband will never, ever understand how exhausted I am, how much I think about and handle silently. I feel unseen and unappreciated. And when we posted this question, so many people DMed us and said that mental load imbalances is what ended their relationship or even led to divorce. So this is a serious issue. This is not a. Oh, yeah, like a couple extra things to think about. Oh, you're just making it so much harder on yourself. This is leading to divorces and breakups. This is a big deal. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

[B]

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

[A]

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

[B]

We are 100% recording this time.

[A]

I can see positive.

[B]

I can see the green on that left one. I can see the green on that right one. Because two days ago, we recorded this entire podcast that was only green on one of the mics, Vanessa's mic. We could have actually released the podcast and just in Vanessa's half. I had some good observations, but, you know, it's fine. It's good enough with just Vanessa, right?

[A]

Okay. We recorded this entire episode two days ago. It was a long day. We were cramming in so much stuff. We finished the episode. It was like, past 5:00. I'm like, oh, okay, the day's done. Thank God. And Xander goes, oh, oh. And discovers that only my mic recorded. That was a tough. That was a tough one.

[B]

That was a tough one. However, it was also maybe the universe's way of saying that we just needed.

[A]

We could do better.

[B]

We needed. Well, one, we could do better. But two, we could do better. Because if we waited two days, which we now have, you get Xander, completely unchained. Free. Xander, you have. You have a version of me that has no longer has any metal in my mouth. I got. I'm all, ow. Natural in my mouth. Well, oh, naturally I feel like that. That's one of those things I've never actually said out loud. I've only written it natural.

[A]

Oh, natural.

[B]

Oh, natural. It sounds so weird coming out of my mouth. Wow. But ye. Oh, there ain't shit in my mouth. No, no titanium. No Invisalign. I do have to still wear the Invisalign for a couple months, but I got my palatal expander removed yesterday, and. Yeah. So if you've been listening to this podcast since mid June of last year, you've. You've noticed some speech impediment that I've had. It was worse at the beginning. It was somewhat better since November when half the device got removed, but it's not been perfect. And it's really. Yeah, it's annoying when you're used to talking one way and all of a sudden, like, the words don't quite come out the same way because your tongue is blocked. And it is not anymore. So you're gonna get Xander full force today.

[A]

Unchained.

[B]

Unchained.

[A]

Okay, so let's get into what this episode is really about. Now that we're five minutes into it today, we are talking about the impact that chores, responsibilities, tasks, and mental load can have on your sex life. So this all started with a question that we asked on Instagram. Does sex feel like a chore to you? And we had 86% of people said, yes, it does. Which is pretty wild if you think about it.

[B]

Yeah, it's really interesting because, you know, if sex feels like a chore to you, I would actually suspect that you have a different prop, like sex being a chore. That's not. That's not good. No, don't. No one likes the way that feels. No one is like, oh, I can't wait until sex feels like a chore. So that. That's a problem in and of itself, but the solution is actually it's not about making the sex feel less like a chore. I think for most people, the solution is actually different.

[A]

Okay, so there are a number of reasons why sex could feel like a chore. Maybe you're having sex that's not pleasurable for you. You don't like the way it gets initiated. It's more about your partner than it is for you. It's boring or routine. Or it could be because you're carrying too much weight between household chores and.

[B]

Mental loads, AKA you have too many chores.

[A]

Yeah, it's not that sex is a chore. It's that the chores are ruining your sex life.

[B]

Yeah, you have. You have so many chores, your to do list is so long that you don't have the ability to just, like, have sex when you might want to or when your partner might want to or when you think you're supposed to. And so the sex ends up kind of being in the back of your mind, something that is slowly shifting onto your to do list. And yeah, sex becomes a chore when it is on your to do list as, like, I want to be careful here because I do think that having sex on your to do list can be a really positive thing if done the right way. But if you're.

[A]

If it means, like, I'm prioritizing it.

[B]

Yes. If it means you're prioritizing it, or if, you know, Vanessa and I will very often, at the beginning of a day or at any point in the day, be like, hey, I would love to have sex with you later. That's, like, literally assuming both of us are like, hell, yeah, let's do it. We're literally putting it on our to do list. But I think the issue is when your to do list is so long and we've all been there, it's so long, there's no way you're actually gonna get all of it done today. And you have that feeling of dread. Like, oh, God, I really wanted to do all this, but, like, I'm gonna have to shift some of them off to tomorrow. Right? But then, like, that's gonna, like, I already have a full list of stuff I gotta do tomorrow, so that's gonna, like, you know, it's just, like, creating a traffic jam of stuff. And then when sex is on it still, then you're like. You're like. Then you're. You're literally like, just like, you dreaded the things you're having to push off. Like, you're like, oh, God, am I gonna have to push off the sex? Oh, like, you know, and then all of a sudden, that's, like, exciting that you're looking forward to the something that you're dreading and you're worried about, and you're like, oh, God, I pushed it off to. I pushed it off again. I pushed it off again. I pushed it off again. And that is no fun. That's no fun for anybody.

[A]

So in this episode, we're breaking down how chores and mental load can affect your sex life. And I really love talking about this topic because I think so often when it comes to sex, people go to thinking about, like, sexual technique and spicing things up in the bedroom. But there are so many other factors that play into having a great sex.

[B]

Life, and especially before you even get to technique or exploration or spicing things up.

[A]

Yeah, this is a prime example. Like, if you're thinking about having a great sex life, your brain is probably not going straight to chores and mental Load. But these things can have a huge impact on your sex life. And we'll get into the specific impact that it has. But I just love showing people the importance of these topics, the ways that they can really impact intimacy.

[B]

Yeah. And because we hear from so many people who are like, oh, you know, like, we're just not having as much sex as we used to or we don't have it very often, it's not very exciting. Like, we really, like. I feel like we need to, like, find some new stuff that's going to spice it up or, like, get us excited about it. And my first question is always about not actually like, okay, what technique are you using? Or like, here are some things to spice it up. It's like, okay, first we gotta diagnose some earlier stuff, especially mental load. Like, do you actually have the time in the space to have sex? I think that this is one of the undervalued reasons that people are not having the sex life that they want. But people don't really put it together because of the way we just naturally compartmentalize our sex life. Like, oh, yeah, well, it's. It's this thing that we do because we're married or we're in a relationship or whatever. And yeah, we're just supposed to do that completely independently of anything else going on. Completely independently of how much connection we feel if we're in a fight or not. If we are. Like, if our to do list is a mile long and, like, you're leaving half of it for the next day. So it's. So. It's so important to get to the bottom of this, really, first. But first, we gotta read you this week's review of the week. I'm just gonna go straight into it. This course was really the best purchase I've ever made, really. And I don't know why I struggled to make it in the first place, because it's so affordable. I actually did the activities every single day and continued after the week was over. My husband and I had been struggling feeling connected. He wanted more physical intimacy and I wanted more emotional intimacy first. So I took action and he willingly played along. It helped us both feel really connected emotionally and physically. He said that this past month has been the best month of our ent. Higher relationship. So, yeah, we love getting reviews like this, whether it's on our courses or on our podcast. This is obviously a review of one of our courses, Best week ever, which Vanessa will tell you about in a second. So if this was your review, you have actually won a Free month of our brand new membership Deeper. So you want to claim that prize, all you gotta do is DM us on Instagram or email us at infomtherapy.com and if you want to enter in the future, because we do this every single week, all you got to do is send us a review of one of our courses. You can DM that to us, email it to us, or leave a review of Pillow Talks on the Apple podcast page. For Pillow Talks, just scroll the bottom, smash five stars. Give us a couple sentences about what you love about Pillow Talks.

[A]

Okay. And like Xander mentioned, the course that this review was about was your best week ever. It is seven days of connection boosting activities you can do in just 10 minutes a day. If you want to check that out, go to vmtherapy.com best to learn more.

[B]

Or check the show notes.

[A]

So I discovered something unique about my dad this weekend which is that he eats tacos from the top down. Not like he doesn't turn his head to the side.

[B]

I like your illustration. I hope you're watching this ad on YouTube because it's good.

[A]

My dad's a unique man, which is why I wanted to get him a unique gift for Father's Day.

[B]

One in a billion.

[A]

That's why we we are giving him Storyworth memoirs. So if you've never heard of Storyworth before, this is seriously such a cool gift. Here's how it works. Every week they email your loved one a memory provoking question and you get to help pick the question. So things like did you ever get in trouble at school? Or how did you decide how many kids to have? So your loved one just responds to that email. It's super simple. Just responds to that email. They can write it or even record it over the phone for Storyworth to transcribe. It's super simple. Then at the end of this year you get this incredible package of all of your loved ones stories. You can even include photos as well. And Storyworth helps you make it into a beautiful keepsake hardcover book that you can share and revisit for generations to come. Also along the way, each time they respond, you can also like get the stories mailed to you at the same time so you can see their progress.

[B]

Yeah, well you can get a little preview.

[A]

Really it's about like the keepsake book at the end of this year. It's such a unique gift and honestly like what's more valuable than memories and stories? Customers love Storyworth. They have preserved millions of family stories since their founding over 10 years ago. They have more than 40,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot, the Wirecutter, the Strategist, CNN and more all agree that Storyworth is the perfect gift for the people you love the most. Give the dads in your life a unique, heartfelt gift you'll cherish for years. Storyworth right now save $10 during their Father's Day sale. When you go to storyworth.compillow, that's storyworth.compillow to save $10 on your order. Is there any better endorsement of a product than us being willing to spend our own money on it? And that is exactly what we've done with Good Wipes.

[B]

I thought you were gonna say is there any better endorsement than saying loves it.

[A]

I mean that too. So when Good Wipes came on as a podcast sponsor, they sent us a bunch of the product to try out, make sure we liked it, and approved of bringing them on as an ad partner. We went through that and then we bought with our own money. Good Wipes. Our bathrooms are now fully stocked with Good wipes.

[B]

I can't live without them.

[A]

They are premium wipes that deliver a superior clean that no dry toilet paper can match. But most importantly for me, they are made with clean ingredients. Soothing botanicals like aloe, vitamin E and chamomile. They smell amazing, but free from any harsh chemicals, parabens or dyes. They do have incredible scents. I like the rose water.

[B]

I love the cedar smell.

[A]

But what I love about these scents is these are natural scents, not chemical scents. They're hypoallergenic, super easy on your skin. We love Good wipes around here and we know that you will love them too when you give them a shot. If you want to upgrade your restroom ritual, you can grab Good Wipes at Target, Walmart, Kroger, and most local grocery stores. Just head to the toilet paper aisle and look for the bright aqua, rose and emerald packages. They're also available on Amazon. If you're more of an online shopper. Okay, let's get into it. So first let's talk about what the heck Mental Load is. I think everybody is familiar with chores, hopefully, but I think there are still a lot of people who haven't heard of the concept of mental load before.

[B]

Yeah. And how it is different from just chores. That's kind of the opera. That's like the key thing.

[A]

So Mental load is the invisible labor that goes into running a household and family. So it involves anticipating what needs to be done, organizing everything that needs to be done, making a plan for how it is all going to get done. Ensuring the work actually does get done. Oftentimes, sometimes just doing the work yourself, evaluating the work, and making adjustments for next time. So there are actual tasks themselves. Like, we have to go grocery shopping. But behind each task, there's also an incredible amount of mental labor that goes behind it.

[B]

Yeah. The management of it.

[A]

Yeah. So it might be like, okay, we have to go grocery shopping on Friday because we have to bake cupcakes for the soccer team on Sunday. And I have to remember that the kids used to love this cereal, but now they don't want to eat it. This brand of cookies gave everybody a stomachache, so we can't get those anymore. I have to remember to bring the coupons because there were some great. Like, some money that we can save.

[B]

Oh, and because we're going on Friday instead of the usual Sunday shopping, then that's gonna impact the Friday schedule. And so, you know, okay, my partner's gonna have to pick up the kids from school instead of. You know, it's like. It's like this domino effect. You know, in certain things, there's. There's kind of maybe less management behind it. Maybe it's just simple, like, keeping stock of things. Like, okay, yeah, we buy toilet paper. I got to be on the lookout for when the toilet paper is out. But then there's the bigger and kind of like, broader, the more meta layers of mental load where it's like, okay, there's managing that task, but then it's slotting that in. And then what does that impact? And, like, how do you change all this? And it's really something that. Where that. That load really kind of blossoms, I would say, exponentially as. As you start adding family members to the house, basically. Like, you know, it's one thing kind of just managing your household when you're, like, living alone in a studio or something. Right. Like, there's a limited number of things that. That need being done. Then, you know, then maybe you get to a point where it's like two people living together maybe in a slightly larger house, and, you know, it's maybe someone, you know, almost more likely than not, it's the woman who takes a little more responsibility for the home and is, you know, wanting to take good care of their partner and give their partner a good experience of like, yeah, we're not running out of toilet paper in the middle of the night on a Sunday night. Right. And then it gets even bigger and bigger as you get more kids, you have a larger household, and. Yeah. So it's I think it's just important to kind of recognize that it's something that just inherently grows with. With the size of your family. I just call that out because we'll talk later about maybe some of the objections that sometimes men will have about mental load. And very often, you know, one of the key. The primary objections is like, oh, well, like, this was never really a big deal, like, when I live alone. And it's like, it's. It's very different when you're living alone, you're younger, versus, like, you have a whole family. You're trying to take care of a number of people.

[A]

So Xander kind of said this a second ago, but research shows that women carry the vast majority of the mental load. And a lot of that is the socialization that we get. We're taught to care more about these things or that, like, a good woman, a good wife, a good mom is supposed to do all these things.

[B]

And in many ways, it's like, similar to, you know, men are socialized to take the lead in certain areas. I think sex is a really great one in male, female relationships. You know, most men are socialized, hey, I'm the one who's supposed to initiate sex. I'm supposed to take the lead with sex. Like, you know, it's. It's on me to ensure that a good experience happens. And, you know, we talk a lot about trying to break down, you know, the ways that we have been socialized into these things that are actually kind of harmful to us. And so I think, you know, to anybody listening, that's sort of like just hearing about this for the first time. You know, especially if you're a guy, think about that. Think about, like, sex and the ways in which you kind of just feel you have this feeling inside, like, oh, yeah, like, that's really supposed to be my responsibility. It's very similar for women when it comes to managing household stuff is that's what they have seen their entire life. That's what they've experienced. They've gotten these implicit messages that they're supposed to be doing this.

[A]

So how does this affect your relationship? Because I do think a lot of people hear this, and they're like, yeah, I mean, well, but what's the big deal? Sure, you got to remember a few extra things at the grocery store. So the bottom line is that mental load is exhausting. It's never ending. It's all encompassing for so many people. It feels like just this constant ticker tape going in your head of all these different things that you have to remember, and they all feel important. And so much of the mental load revolves around tasks that happen every day. So, sure, there might be some mental load around. Hey, we've got to clean out the garage. And like, yeah, we have done it in five years. You clean out the garage, but then it's like, you're one and done.

[B]

Yeah, I don't have to worry about that for a while.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, okay, we're done with that. But I think the worst mental load is around the daily activities. Like, food is probably one of the worst ones. You have to think every single day, multiple times a day, for the rest of your life until you are dead. You are gonna have to be thinking about, what are we eating for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and fricking snacks and dessert.

[B]

Good thing. It's really lucky in our relationship that I do most of the cooking. You would be appalled at what happens when I am out of town. I actually just.

[A]

I hate having to feed myself. Oh, my God.

[B]

I actually just booked a pretty long surf trip halfway around the world, like, a year from now. Wait, with a Friday?

[A]

What do you mean pretty long?

[B]

It's 10 days, so I'll be gone almost two weeks because it takes a long time to get there.

[A]

We're gonna have to talk about that later, buddy. You did not tell me it was 10 days.

[B]

I sure did.

[A]

No, you didn't.

[B]

I told you what the dates were.

[A]

I don't think so. But anyway, we have to table that one.

[B]

Oh, boy, I'm blushing a little bit. But anyway, interesting insight into our relationship because, see, Vanessa's already worried about what is she gonna eat while I'm gone for 10 days. I'm have to do what your dad does. Make a bunch of food and stick it in the freezer for Vanessa's mom.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's this constant having to think through things, and even with, what are we gonna eat? It's like, yeah, there's so many different things that you could choose from, but then you're also having to think of, have we been getting enough protein? Are we getting enough vegetables? Are we getting enough fiber? I think we ate that last week. So. And so doesn't like to eat this meal. This person wants to eat this meal multiple times.

[B]

I just took Timmy to the doctor. And what did the doctor say about Timmy's nutrition? Oh, he really needs. Needs more of this and less of that.

[A]

Exactly. So there's so much mental load, and it's just exhausting. And, of course, as Human beings, we only have a limited amount of time and energy in a given day. So if so much of our energy is being taken up by this mental load, that can obviously have a huge impact on our relationships.

[B]

And unlike a job that is outside of the house or even a remote job where you work inside the house, the difference is there's not a generally accepted time when you are on the clock and a generally accepted time when you are off the clock. Even if you were to want to say, hey, once 6:00 clock rolls around, I'm done doing household stuff. You are literally, it's like you live in your workplace and it's like you can't turn your eyes off to be like, oh, nope, not looking at the fact that I'm just pulling out the last roll of toilet paper. Oh, nope, not opening the fridge to see that we're running low on this thing. And I think, like, that is one that I think people that take on much less of the mental load often underestimate or undervalue is that it's like, I know it can feel like, oh, well, it's not really that big of a deal. Just like, forget about it for a couple of hours so that we can be together. And it's like you literally can't stop your eyes from seeing all the things that need to be done. It would be like, imagine this is a crazy example, but like, you know, say you work like a corporate or office job or something like that where you get a lot of email communication. Imagine if your email inbox were like displayed on like all the walls of your house 24 hours a day or like your slack or something like that. And it was like, ding, ding, you know, random times. Like, imagine, imagine what that would be like. And, you know, maybe this isn't quite as extreme. It's not projected on all the walls of your house at all times. But like, it's, you know, it's kind of that vibe. Like you can't help but be reminded of what you need to do tomorrow or the next day or next at all hours throughout the day.

[A]

Another big problem that comes up with mental load is it's so easy to feel unseen. I mean, the problem with mental load in and of itself is that this is largely invisible labor. It's thoughts that are constantly going through your head. And actually, if you're doing like a quote unquote good job of carrying the mental load, your partner's probably not seeing all that you do. And in male female relationships, I think that there's just A lack of understanding about mental load. Like, mental load, it really hasn't been talked about until just the last few years. And the content that I'm seeing at least, is much more geared towards women. So we very often hear from women in male. Female relationships saying, I know all about this now. And I was so relieved to hear, oh, my God, there's a word for this. I understand now what I'm going through and why this is so hard. And they're telling us, my male partner just does not get it or doesn't.

[B]

Believe that it's a thing.

[A]

Oh, that's not a thing. Or you're making a big deal out of nothing. So it's leading to a lot of tension and conflict between partners. And even if you're not having conflict about it, it's still just this feeling of being unseen. We actually posted a question on Instagram. We asked, do you ever feel unseen and unappreciated by your partner? And. And 64% of people said yes. They feel like their partner does not fully see and appreciate everything they do for their relationship, home or family, which is wild. I mean, that's a huge number. And I think this idea of feeling unseen in a relationship, I think this is one of the biggest problems in relationships that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. Like. Like when you choose to spend your life with somebody, to share your life with them, and then you wind up feeling unseen by them. I mean, it's heartbreaking. It's so dehumanizing. It's a really horrible experience. So it's really contributing to that. It can also make you feel like you're not on the same team at all. It even feel like you and your partner are kind of pitted against each other. You're dealing with like. Like nagging frustration arguments, and then all those arguments can start boiling over and turning into resentment. And once you start getting into the resentful phase, that's a real tough place to get out of in a relationship. We asked our Instagram community how chores and mental load affect their relationship, and we got some incredible quotes that we're going to read to you.

[B]

Yeah, so one person said, it makes me shut down. I get snippy and critical, another person said, causing me to keep score, looking for ways that he could help but doesn't. Sometimes I try to test him, and he always fails. Testing is such a bad dynamic to get into. I know how it's so. It's so common. I know how tempting it is to be like, hey, let's throw this thing in front of them and see if they do it. But it's just, it's not, it's really not fair to have this like one sided evaluation. Right. Like the other partner has no idea that they're being evaluated on something. And it's kind of like you're, you're doomed to fail. So, yeah, that never really works out the way that people think it will, unfortunately. Also, it makes me feel like a nag. My husband assumes these things are my responsibility simply because I'm a woman. I feel extremely bitter about his outdated gender roles. And finally, it keeps me from being vulnerable.

[A]

Okay, here's some more. A lot of resentment and lack of connection when I feel like my load outweighs his. It feels like he gets to be carefree and do what he pleases while I am breaking under the weight of everything I'm carrying. He gets to be the happy one and I'm miserable. That's such a common theme that comes up for people feeling like, yeah, it's unfair. Like, my partner gets to be the happy, carefree, happy, go, lucky one, and I'm like the nag, the grump, the cranky one. Another person simply wrote, I feel alone. Someone else said, I'm afraid to ask him to do things because I see it as my problem, not his. If I ask for help, it feels like I'm admitting I'm not doing a good job. My husband will never, ever understand how exhausted I am, how much I think about and handle silently. I feel unseen and unappreciated. And when we posted this question, so many people DMed us and said that mental load imbalances is what ended their relationship or even led to divorce. So this is a serious issue. This is not a, oh, yeah, like, oh, a couple extra things to think about or you're just making it so much harder on yourself. Like, this is leading to divorces and breakups. This is a big deal.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, hopefully now that this is more of just a, a transparent topic that people are talking about. I mean, my hope is that going into relationships there will be much more communication about this. But I think that this ends up being one of those things in, you know, for many people that are in long term relationships now and they've been in that relationship for a while, there was no discussion about this five years ago, ten years ago. There was sort of a, you know, we got into a relationship, we got married and we just kind of like, I did the stuff, you know, we did it the way we thought we were supposed to do it. And then, you know, I kind of woke up one day and was like, oh, like I'm doing way more. This doesn't feel fair. And, you know, I think it's, it's very similar to, it's very similar to how, like, you know, issues with sex and a lot of relationships where it's like, we don't. You don't talk about it, you don't talk about. You don't talk about it until it. And it simmers and simmers and simmers and becomes a bigger and bigger problem. And the problem when you wait on those things and, you know, you don't talk about it when it's just simmering is that you only talk about when it's boiling over. And it's so hard to come back from that. Like, it's, it's possible, but it's really, really hard. And it's, it's. And especially with this, like, it's, it's really hard to change, like, ingrained behavior. Like you've, you know, developed this habit over years and years and years of being together where one partner just expects the other partner to do all of these things. So anyway, I really encourage people. We'll talk a little bit more about this, I think, towards the end. I really encourage people to address this head on now, like sooner rather than later. Because this is something that never gets better on its own. I promise you it won't get better on its own. It will only get worse. And it will get to a point where it will end your marriage, it will end your relationship. So it's, it's better to just come clean about, like, how this is feeling to you now and what you want it to actually look like. And yeah, that might cause some temporary, some disagreement, some, Some feelings in the immediate term, but I promise, like, it's better to find out if there are irreconcilable differences between you two and your perspectives now than it is like, five years from now. And it's, it's better to, to risk all of that because then you have the chance of, of making this so much better so that five years from now you're in a place you never thought was possible, rather than like, sitting on it for five more years and then being like, yeah, I kind of always knew that this was going to end things, and it finally has.

[A]

So let's talk about how it affects your sex life in particular, because after.

[B]

Everything we said, like, at this point, because how could you it not.

[A]

How could it not but you need a little more convincing. Here's how it can affect your sex life. When your brain is so full of all that mental load, it just feels impossible to make space for anything else. So it just doesn't feel like there's space to feel desire, to think about sex, to get excited about it.

[B]

This is very much, I think, like, akin to something like being touched out, where it's like, once you are acting at that. At that place, like, it's just not gonna happen. It doesn't matter how much you want to, how hard you try. Like, you know, it's like you're. With being touched out, it's like your body really is overloaded and kind of shuts down. And with mental load, it's kind of the same in your head. Like, your brain is just like, nope, I'm done. Nope, I'm done. Not. Not thinking about this.

[A]

If you've gotten to the point where you're feeling resentful of each other, of course, course that's going to lead to decreased desire. I mean, even if you're just, like, nagging, having arguments about it like that very easily leads to decreased desire.

[B]

Yeah. When was. When was the last time you were super resentful and super horny? I'll wait. I'll wait while you think about it. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Never, huh? It also just makes it hard to enjoy sex. Even if you manage to overcome those hurdles and agree to have sex with your partner, like, you're gonna have such a hard time being in the moment, like, enjoying that experience, letting in pleasure. When your brain's all the laundry and the dishes and unloading this and taking out the trash and all that, it's just not going to be enjoyable sex. But I think the most damaging aspect of mental load is that your partner stops feeling like your partner and starts feeling like your child. And that is not sexy.

[B]

Yep. Absolutely.

[A]

So many women reached out to us and said, like, I just feel a complete lack of attraction to my partner. It feels like. Like my partner's just yet another person that I need to take care of. I feel more like his mother than his partner. Like, it's just not good news.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, yeah, if. If you don't know why that is not going to make your partner want to have sex with you, then maybe.

[A]

Bigger problems is not going to help you.

[B]

Like, I'm not even going to spell that one out because. Because I'm not. I'm not gonna spell that one out. But if you hear that and you're like, wait, but why? Like, you got bigger fish to fry? Let's just put it that way.

[A]

So we polled our Instagram community. We asked women, has mental load had a significant impact on your desire? 81% of women said yes. Damn, that's wild. We hear so many complaints about low desire and so many of us women, it's really easy to feel like something's wrong with us, we're broken in some way, but, like, it's the 81%, it's the mental load. So again, if you're still not convinced, I mean, you should just turn off the podcast now. If you're still not convinced, we're not gonna be able to convince you at this point. But yeah, I mean, that's huge. 81% of women saying it's significantly decreasing their desire. That's wild.

[B]

Yeah. So the answer is not forgetting about mental load. It's not like. It's not like being blissfully unaware of it. The answer is.

[A]

You can't get to the answer yet. We're gonna talk about it in a minute.

[B]

Oh, great. Okay. Well, hey, now you know a couple things that aren't the answer.

[A]

Okay. I wanted to read this quote though, because one woman sent this in and it just felt like such a good summary of a lot of the stuff we talked about. I feel like I do so much and then have no energy or desire to be intimate with him. Then he gets cranky at me. I always feel like I'm failing no matter what I do.

[B]

Yeah, and then he gets cranky with you, which further reinforces, I don't want.

[A]

To have sex with you.

[B]

No, no. But I was gonna say further reinforces. Oh, like. Like this is a to do list item. Like, oh, this is a chore. Like, oh, God, I know he wants it. Another thing I gotta do for him.

[A]

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[B]

And the key word here is equitable. Equitable does not mean equal. And I think a lot of people hear that and have some confusion about what that means. Equitable just means in a way that feels fair to you guys. Because I think that very often we jump to this place of like, okay, well, we gotta split it up. So, like, let's do. Let's do 50, 50. And. Well, one, I don't think that this is something where you can ever quantify it to, you know, to be so specific that you could split things up 50, 50, like, you know, even if. Even if you were to go, like, totally crazy and, like, time every single thing and, like, split it up so that it's really close. It's like, you know, the amount of time something takes this week is going to be different from the amount of time it takes next week or next month when things, you know, the schedule changes and all that stuff. So, like, you're never going to get to an actual 50, 50 split. And also, like, depending on your personal situation, your relationship, life, like, you know, does one partner work outside of the house? Do both partners work outside the house? How far are the commutes, where do the kids go to school, et cetera. Like, there's all these factors that are going to shift things, and there's for sure going to be situations where it does make. It just makes a lot more practical sense for one partner to. To take on, like, more of that mental load than the other partner. The key, though, is just that it is out in the open who is doing what. I think that that conceptually just really changes the way that this feels. Like, at least we just want both partners to see what the other is doing and understand. And being able to see then puts us in a situation where we can actually recognize our partner for what they're doing and be grateful for what they're doing rather than be expectant about it or just assume that it is going to happen. And having it out in the open and having a plan for a breakdown of it allows us to continue talking about it and continuing to revisit it rather than it just being this assumed. Okay, I guess I just have to do all these things because he's never stepped up to do them.

[A]

So we have a great resource if you are looking to balance the mental load in your relationship and come up with a clear, specific plan. It's called our Mental Load Workbook. And there's kind of a funny little backstory behind it. We created it. It because we started talking about mental load a few years ago, and we shared our own story of early in our relationship. Like, when we first moved in together. Xander was working in the corporate world. I was going back to grad school, and I just. So I was, like, in the home more often and fell into the trap where I.

[B]

The gender stereotype trap. Even though neither of us wanted to, we both were really upfront about, like, hey, you know, like, traditional gender roles. That's, you know, like, sure, sometimes I'll do the more masculine thing, sometimes you do the more feminine thing, but the more masculine thing. I don't know.

[A]

Traditionally.

[B]

Yeah. Sorry, Stereotypically. But, like, you know. Yeah, I just mean, I. To be clear, when I said gender roles, I meant, like, it's not like, okay, like, we're gonna do everything equally or we're gonna do everything opposite. It's just like, look, like neither of you us have the desire to be like, I have to do the traditionally masculine things, and you have to do the traditionally feminine things. And yet this was one. This was one thing. You know, we talked about gender roles specifically. We didn't talk about household responsibilities specifically. And then we just fell into the trap of like, hey, when you don't talk about something, you fall back on your. On your conditioning, your socialization. And that absolutely, kind of. That just. That was the trap that got sprung for us.

[A]

So we created this workbook for ourselves where we laid out all of the mental load, all of the chores, and came up with this plan for how we were going to manage it. And when we started talking about it, people instantly were like, I need that workbook. What is the workbook? Let me have it. And so we decided to, like. We turned it into a product that we ended up selling. So it has these, like, detailed, organized task list to go through together. It talks about what Mental Load is, helps you figure out how to balance it in a way that's going to feel. Feel fair for your unique relationship and family. And we'll tell you a little bit more about that in a minute, too. But we wanted to answer some questions specifically from the Community first.

[B]

All right, our first question is. I've tried explaining mental load to my husband, but he just does not get it. He says, I'm just making life more complicated than it needs to be. Any tips for getting a man to understand?

[A]

Well, this is why I think it's so important to make mental load visible. So taking some time to just pick one specific task that feels like there's a lot of mental load behind and detail for your partner, all the different pieces of mental load that go into it. So making it visible, making these pieces of it, bringing them out into light, I think can be really helpful. But I also like comparing it to work. So tell your partner. Imagine that you go to work and you have a new coworker that starts. You guys are on the same level. It's not like you're their boss or anything like that. Like, if this is your co worker, and your co worker comes up to you and is like, hey, so what should I do today? Maybe you're like, immediately have some. You know, okay, can you work on this project? Or, you know, yeah, you're supposed to be doing this thing, and then you're. They go off, and then they come back and they're like, okay, what do you want me to do now? Like, you're gonna get to a point very quickly where you're like, dude, this is your job. Like, you're the one who needs to be thinking of what you're supposed to be doing.

[B]

You got hired to do this job.

[A]

Like, yeah, do it.

[B]

I'm not your manager.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not your manager. Don't come to me to, like, tell you what to do. And even if you were, say you wanted to be a really nice person and help your co worker at their job. Like, that's so much work that it puts on your shoulders to figure out, okay, what it. What does my co worker need to do? When do they need to do it? Who else needs to know what they're working on? Who are they needing to collaborate with? Who do I need to put them in touch with? Like, that's a whole. That's being somebody's manager, their boss, not their coworker. So that can be an interesting way to try to explain it too. Do you have any other thoughts for how to get men to understand mental load? Resident man.

[B]

Resident man. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I would really encourage you. If you are. If you're. If your male partner or any partner is struggling to understand what it is or just thinking you're making it more complicated, then it Needs to be, like, I would say, great. If. If it is so uncomplicated, like, I would love you to spend, you know, half an hour, 45 minutes just listening to this episode right up until this point. And, like, I would love. I think that we laid out a pretty clear case for what this is and how it is. Not like, oh, yeah, I forget making things more complicated.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's why we designed this podcast episode like, we wanted. We wanted to take on this, the load of having to explain it for your partner. So, like, I mean, we design all of our episodes to be great to listen to with your partner, but this is the prime one. Like, tell your partner I want you to listen to this episode with me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I would love, you know, after they've listened up to this point, like, is it really not seeming like a big deal now? I mean, honestly, like, bro, if you have any questions, like, DM me on. On our Instagram, I'd love to chat with you about it.

[A]

Wow, you're offering.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, but, like, it's got to be a no. I'm not talking about, like, DMS from, like, her when she's like, oh, here's what my husband is saying. Like, yeah, like. Like, you, the guy who thinks this isn't a big deal. Like, DM me and let's talk about it.

[A]

Wow, Xander, offering to take on the mental load and the chore of helping your man understand.

[B]

I'm up for it. I will say, though, if you are, if you've gotten to that point and they're still sort of, like, belittling you about it or, like, you know, downplaying it, I think that. I mean, unfortunately, you are starting to reveal some potential serious differences conceptually between you or, values wise, between the two of you. You know, another. Another thing, though, that I would say. I'm not saying, like, oh, it's. It's time to break up with them, but I think it is. It's worth, you know, raising that. Like, hey, this is starting to feel like a real serious difference in values for us. Because often, you know, that that might trigger for him. Like, it's unfortunate that it requires that serious of a conversation, but that might kind of trigger a change in his thinking of, oh, this isn't my part. This isn't really just this thing that I can convince her it's not a big deal of, like, she's. She's raising some flags here that this could actually, like, take our relationship down the wrong path. And so that Might give him an opportunity to sort of reevaluate his thinking. I mean, another thing, if you want to get a little sassy with it and flip it around, is, Is, you know, we've already talked about, hey, it's. It is really important to, to balance or, you know, split the mental load in some way. Balance. I. I worry balance implies like 50. 50. So, like that, you know, it's important to Del, to not. I almost said delegate, not to delegate. It's to actually split up the mental load. So what you could do do is say, okay, that's great. It feels to you like this is not so complicated. So if it's so not complicated, I would love for you to take on these five responsibilities. Show me. Please show me. This isn't a challenge. Like, you know, but, like, if you're saying this is not complicated, that's awesome. Why don't you do these? These are yours now. And yeah, go ahead and show me. And you can keep talking about, okay, how is it going? What does done look like for these tasks? It's not okay if it's just like, okay, they're responsible for it, but then they're not doing it. So I think you got to be able to have some follow up. But I do like the idea of just challenging them a bit. Great. That's awesome that it doesn't sound complicated here. I've got a bunch of things that I'd like to put on your plate instead of mine now.

[A]

All right. Okay, here's our next question. My partner helps when I ask, but I don't understand why he never takes the initiative to notice what needs to be done in the first place.

[B]

I think that this is just a classic symptom of you guys not having a transparent plan laid out for the mental load. I think this is a classic symptom of, like, we haven't talked about it clearly. We haven't actually properly, like, given responsibilities for things to one person or, like, accountability of things to one person or the other that mashed up with just typical gender stereotypes and socialization. So this sounds like he is just probably operating from the assumption that, yeah, you know, like, probably she will do it, or probably she has higher standards than I do about something, or, like, she'll notice when something needs to get done. Mashed up with, he's not actually ultimately responsible or accountable for any specific task. Because the key word here is my partner helps when I ask. So it's like you are actually unknowingly putting your partner into a employee manager relationship. Where you are the manager and they are the employee. Because it's like, oh, great. When I ask you, you do something, so your partner is literally just waiting there. Oh, yeah, great. Okay. When they want me to do something, they ask task and then I do it. But, like, it's not. They. They have no incentive to actually notice this stuff now. They will have an incentive to notice this stuff when you have actually laid out all the tasks and been like, all right, so you are responsible for these ones now. Like, I'm not checking up on you. I'm not. Whatever. If it doesn't get done and it impacts us adversely, like, then we'll have a conversation about it because, you know, like, that it's a miss on either of our parts if, like, we get into a bad situation because, like, like we don't have the toilet paper or like our kids aren't able to have lunch because the food wasn't bought or the lunches weren't prepared or whatever. But, like, you know, this is on you now. And so I think that this is just a symptom of, like, you know, you've accidentally put him in the role that he is now playing and he's expecting that you will do it. And you've showed him that, yeah, you are. You are noticing the things because you're asking him to help. So, yeah, stop asking him to help you and say, we're splitting this stuff up and this is on you now. All right, next question. My husband works long hours at a stressful job and I'm a stay at home mom. Logically, I think it makes more sense for me to do the majority of the chores. But the reality is that I'm often exhausted and overwhelmed. When I ask for help, he'll complain that he's had a long day and that a man needs his rest. Oh, I don't like that. Am I wrong for thinking he should help from time to time? Wait, so just, just to clarify, so a woman does not need her rest?

[A]

No, only a man needs his rest. Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay, so I do think, I mean, people need rest for sure.

[A]

Okay, let me get on my soapbox about this one. I hate that we have this idea that stay at home mom is like an easy job. Like, oh, you're staying at home. You're just relaxing and hanging out. Being a stay at home mom is a, a full time job more than a full time job.

[B]

Double job.

[A]

Yeah. You are working way more hours than a standard 9 to 5. There's actually great research showing that if Stay at home mom. Moms were paid a salary. It should be between like 160 and $190,000 a year. That's how valuable it is.

[B]

Like, like when you quantify the task and think about, like, what would it cost to actually like get, you know, outsource those, get somebody else to do.

[A]

Them also, this is a really fucking important job. Like being a mother to children, raising.

[B]

You can't quantify that part. Like showing up in, you know, showing up in that family dynamic.

[A]

But yeah, you're not just sitting around at home, like watching tv, eating bonbons, like having fun. You're doing a tremendous amount of tasks. So I hate this idea that like, it's implicit here that he thinks he's working a real job and she's working the fun job and so he gets to come home and have his rest. Like, that's absolute bullshit.

[B]

Yeah. And also, not only that, but, but it's also like it's monotonous tasks. It's the same ones over and over. And yet some, some jobs out of the house are, are very much like that. Like, same thing over and over. But even, even if it's like, even if it's same thing, like, I don't know, I'm thinking of a random example. Like you work at a coffee shop and you make coffee for people. It's the same thing over and over. But like, what happens every day is different. Different people come in, different things happen. You're around other people.

[A]

Being a stay at home mom's really isolating and lonely. Yeah, it's just like, I don't think stay at home moms get nearly enough respect. I hate this idea. And yeah, just because you're a stay at home mom, that does not mean that you should take on all of the tasks, all of the mental load. Like your partner is still an adult and they need to participate in an adult life and do their tasks and responsibilities. So again, it might not be 50, 50. Everybody's going to be unique and different. But just being a stay at home mom does not mean that you should automatically have to take on all of the mental load.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So here's, here's what I would do. I think like this is, this is just another kind of slightly sassy or cheeky thing that you could do. But I think this would actually be really educational for your partner is you can say, okay, look, yeah, I hear you, I hear you that you've been at work all day. You come home, you feel like you've had a long day and you feel like you want some rest. I feel that same way, you know, like, I'm doing. I'm busting my ass all day day. I'm really tired and I'm really overwhelmed. And, you know, I think a woman needs harass too. So, you know, it would be fair maybe that, like, when you got home, I'm just going to say randomly, it's like 6:00 clock or something. So let's just say, okay, at 6:00 clock. At 6:00 clock today, I'm going to clock out too. And let's see what happens. I'm just going to like, point out to you, like, what the difference is between me clocking out at 6pm and me, you know, doing what I typically do, which is everything. So 6pm rolls around, you're like, okay, whew, awesome. Work is done. We're both done with work. Hell yeah. Let's. Let's hang out. Then we're like, huh? Oh, shoot, nobody made dinner. So. Okay, well, I guess we can't, like, I can't make dinner because I'm done working. Okay, so what we're gonna have to order, presumably, right? Like, okay, so that's gonna cost some money, right? Okay, so we're gonna order. Okay. Oh, we're done with dinner. That was really good. But we have a bunch of dishes now. Okay, so those are just gonna have to sit in the sink. Right. And then I'm gonna have to do those tomorrow. But the problem is tomorrow I have all these other things that, you know, the same things that kept me busy all day until 6 o' clock when I finished. So, like, then that's probably gonna mean I'm not gonna be able to do X, Y and Z tomorrow, and those are gonna get pushed to the next day. And so you can just kind of point out all the things that typically you would be doing to clear your slate for the next day. Right. I would only recommend doing that for one day because otherwise you're going to get yourself into a lot of trouble the next couple days with stuff piling up. But I think that is just, you know, just a way to literally show, like, hey, I've been working all day. I want to stop just as much as you, but if I do, if we don't split this stuff, like, then it just all falls on me.

[A]

All right, I feel like we could do an entire podcast episode just about that topic. But we will. We'll come to a close on that one for now. All right, so just a quick little heads up that this is the last week to grab our Mental Load workbook before it moves exclusively inside our all Access membership, Deeper. We launched Deeper recently and that is where we are going to be devoting all of our time and attention. So if you want to check out the mental load workbook, May 25th is the last day to purchase it individually. We have the link for that in the show notes if you want to check that out. But also wanted to share with you a different option if you want to check out Deeper. You will have access to that Mental Load workbook. And we actually did something really awesome recently. We have these monthly double dates where we cover a different topic. So we did a Mental Load double date and we created a special five day challenge where we walk you through the Mental Load Workbook. You come out on the other end of that challenge with a specific, clear game plan for your Mental Load. We get into it in a lot more detail and nuance than we were able to cover in this episode.

[B]

Yeah, the actual how to's.

[A]

Yeah, the challenge is really awesome because it gives you that accountability and structure of creating that plan.

[B]

Yeah. Imagine how good it will feel. It would feel five days from now if you're like, you know, you came into this, you were like, you know, you feel in all kinds of ways about Mental Load and. And it just feels overwhelming. And then five days from now, imagine that it was sorted, it was assigned and sorted. Feel pretty good that load was lightened.

[A]

So yeah, this is just such a great option because not only do you get the Mental Load Workbook and that double date, but also tons of other resources within Deeper. So if you want to check that out, head to vmtherapy.com deeper for all the details. All right, well, that is all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.