Xander Marin (2:34)

Too tolerant. Overly tolerant.

Vanessa Marin (2:35)

Overly tolerant. Way too tolerant.

Xander Marin (2:38)

To the extent of sort of becoming like, doormat esque.

Vanessa Marin (2:42)

Yeah. And I think it's also really important to call out when you're in A situation yourself. Sometimes it's just very hard to see the reality of it.

Xander Marin (2:52)

I've been in these situations in past relationships. Absolutely. Where all of a sudden you get out of it and you're like, oh, my God, how did I put up with that for so long? Why did I put up with that for so long? And, I mean, fortunately, I think these are often really good learning experiences. We learn a lot about ourselves, but hindsight's really 20 20. It's really hard to tell in the moment. It's blurry as hell. Or it seems clear, like, oh, yeah, no, no, everything's okay. Everything's okay. And then, like, you realize, oh, wait, everything is not okay. And in fact, I'm not sure why I put up with this for so long.

Vanessa Marin (3:27)

So this whole episode is about our hot takes and gut reactions and us weighing in on whether we think somebody should put up with this or not.

Xander Marin (3:36)

Based on the information they shared with us.

Vanessa Marin (3:38)

Yes. Which we have to acknowledge is just one little tiny snapshot. And it's just one person's perspective, possibly biased.

Xander Marin (3:44)

Who knows?

Vanessa Marin (3:45)

But I also want to acknowledge these are real human beings on the other ends of these questions. And it's just we've all had the experience of, like, when you're in it, it's hard to see. It's so much easier when you're outside of it, looking at somebody else's situation to say, like, oh, my God, no, you should not be dealing with that. Or you're being, you know, way too intolerant. So let's. We'll give that little disclaimer.

Xander Marin (4:07)

I always. I always try to do my best in these situations to think, like, you know, because often you hear these things, and it's like, oh, my God, this is so. This feels so extreme. Like, of course you shouldn't put up with this. I always really try my best to be like, all right, let me give the most generous interpretation I possibly can of what might be going on for the other person. So I'm gonna put my most generous interpretation hat on as well today, as well as giving a couple hot takes. But, you know, I'll try my best.

Vanessa Marin (4:36)

Okay, so let's get into it with our first story.

Xander Marin (4:40)

Let's go.

Vanessa Marin (4:41)

My husband will show me progress pictures of other women who lost weight that have similar stats to me.

Xander Marin (4:48)

Oh, boy. Okay. I don't know yet how I can put on the generous interpretation hat yet, but let's. Let's see what happens. There might be more. There might be more.

Vanessa Marin (4:58)

Let me read the rest after Three kids. I'm heavier than I want to be. But finding the energy and the time to work out has been so difficult. I've told him I don't appreciate looking at these, and he's not just shoved them in my face to look at lately, but still asks me if I want to look. And I really feel like not looking would irritate him. Wait, that's okay. So he's, like, shoving the pictures in her face, asking her, like, hey, do you wanna look? But she's feeling like I can't even say no because he would be irritated about.

Xander Marin (5:28)

I think she's saying she doesn't want to look at them. However she is looking at them.

Vanessa Marin (5:33)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (5:34)

Because she is thinking that that would bother him if she didn't. So that right there. I think that that would be a first step. It sounds like we haven't read the rest. We'll see. But it sounds like. It sounds like some expression of like, hey, I don't. I don't want to look at these would be not only helpful, like, you're well within your rights to say you're well within your rights to not want to look at certain types of pictures or content or whatever.

Vanessa Marin (6:01)

Okay. I really do want to get in better shape and lose a little weight, but I feel like if I do it now, he'd win.

Xander Marin (6:08)

Oh, okay. All right. This just took a turn, and I am here for it.

Vanessa Marin (6:16)

It's ridiculous.

Xander Marin (6:18)

This is too good. This is. Oh, my God. So I haven't. I haven't. We always do this. I've never. I haven't read in advance. I'm hearing them for the first time right now. Oh, my God. This is incredible. This just made my day.

Vanessa Marin (6:30)

It's ridiculous, considering I want it too, but I feel like he would feel he finally got through to me if I would lose weight.

Xander Marin (6:38)

Well, damn. You just. You fucked, girl. You fucked.

Vanessa Marin (6:42)

Anytime I've attempted to get back into working out and watching what I eat, once I fail, he inevitably makes a comment about how I haven't been doing what I set out to do, and it makes me feel like crap.

Xander Marin (6:54)

Oh, boy.

Vanessa Marin (6:54)

This one is all over the place.

Xander Marin (6:56)

Wow.

Vanessa Marin (6:57)

Okay. What do you think? Hot take?

Xander Marin (7:01)

I'm. I don't even. I don't even know. At first I was just. I was about to be, like, 110% on her side, and then the comment about I want to do it, but actually I'm kind of intentionally not doing it because I don't want him to win. I don't know. I mean, Maybe you two are perfect.

Vanessa Marin (7:26)

For each other in a weird way.

Xander Marin (7:28)

In a weird sort of way. But I think there's things that both of you could do. Like, interestingly, you guys are so much closer than you think on this. It's so sad, because you both. You both actually really do want the same things, and I feel like you both could do it in a way that would be, like, supportive for each other and fun, but you're just missing each other.

Vanessa Marin (7:49)

Okay, so let's go back to the original, like, showing her progress pictures like that. That's not cool. That's very body shaming. I will try to make a positive interpretation here that maybe this is really hard because he's also. He makes comm. Okay. I do think sometimes people think they're being motivating and supportive, even though they are really not. So the most generous possible interpretation is that the husb is like, hey, she keeps talking about how she wants to lose weight and get in shape so I can motivate her. I can inspire her. Like, let me show her some pictures. Let me, like, try to cheer her on.

Xander Marin (8:29)

Yeah. And maybe she's even said something in the past that, like. That, like, makes him think that that's what she needs or that she wants or she might have, you know, who knows? Like, I wouldn't be surprised if in the past, she's had something like, oh, like, oh, like, I like it when you hold me accountable. Or like, you know, something like, oh, you said this one thing, and it really motivated me. And, like, it's totally possible he's working off some possibly outdated information or a comment that she made that maybe she doesn't mean anymore or something like that. But, I mean, this is a very real thing of, like, you know, someone thinking that they're being motivating. I mean, this is. This has come up in our relationship.

Vanessa Marin (9:07)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (9:07)

In terms of fitness journeys, and, you know, early on, you started your. Your fitness and your health journey a little before I did, and there were some times. A while. A while. And, yeah, there was. There were some time where I was, like, wanting to be healthier and wanting to be more fit, but I was really struggling, and I think you tried to motivate me, and it didn't feel very good. It didn't feel very good to me, and it kind of, like, created a. It created a dynamic where, like, I kind of wanted to, like, push back on it or, like, not want to do.

Vanessa Marin (9:44)

Oh, you didn't want me to win?

Xander Marin (9:46)

Well, I wasn't thinking about it, like, that but for me, it just. It ended up. I realized it ended up feeling, like, demotivating.

Vanessa Marin (9:53)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (9:54)

Like, I came away wanting to, like, not do that, and then looking at you working out and you being healthy as, like, oh, I don't want that, because, like, it doesn't feel good, you know, the way that you were, you know, trying to motivate me. So fortunately, we had a whole conversation about this, and you just stopped doing that.

Vanessa Marin (10:15)

Well, I didn't realize that it wasn't feeling good to you.

Xander Marin (10:19)

Oh, yeah. And I didn't.

Vanessa Marin (10:20)

That's why I'm like, yeah, I can. I can try to give the generous possible interpretation, but also, I wasn't showing you pictures.

Xander Marin (10:25)

No, no, no. You were not at all. You were not at all.

Vanessa Marin (10:29)

Yeah. That feels like even if somebody were to say, like, yeah, I want you to motivate me and inspire me, like, bringing in pictures of other people's bodies just doesn't. That doesn't feel good at all. Okay, so if the question is, should I tolerate my partner showing me progress pictures making about how I'm not doing what I want to do, like, I think you need to have a conversation with him. I do worry a little bit, the way that this is written, that she hasn't really expressed to him that she doesn't want to be doing.

Xander Marin (10:59)

I'm sure she hasn't.

Vanessa Marin (11:00)

So you have. Yeah. You have to have that conversation first. And if he keeps doing it, once you've said, hey, I really don't want you doing this, if he keeps doing it, then, yeah, that's something to escalate where maybe the next step is therapy, you know, more serious conversations. But it feels to me like she hasn't fully expressed, like, I don't want you doing that.

Xander Marin (11:20)

Oh, yeah, I'm. I'm nearly certain that she hasn't. That's absolutely the best first step. Now, see, the thing that. Before we got to the, like, her saying she doesn't want him to win thing, before that, I was gonna say, you know, she definitely needs to tell him that she doesn't want him to share those and even just set a boundary, like. Like a clear boundary. I am not open to this anymore. I was gonna say the next thing I imagine that's coming up is that you're feeling, like, unmotivated based on what he's doing. But it kind of feels like it's not quite that you're unmotivated. You are motivated, but you're battling with this sort of, like, win or loser mentality of, like, one of you, like, the zero sum game. Like, one of you can win and one of you can lose. And because he is kind of, like, pushing you to lose weight, even though you also want to lose weight, that if you take action to do that, that somehow he will win, which is a problematic point of view. Like.

Vanessa Marin (12:25)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (12:26)

Though at the same time, if you get him to stop showing you these pictures and talking to you about it, then perhaps it does open the door for you to win in the. You know, or at least in your mind to win, because he's not doing it. But, like, I would love for you to just do away with this whole idea of, like, there's a winner and a loser in your relationship in general. Like, with anything.

Vanessa Marin (12:48)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (12:49)

Because if that's the case, you're just gonna be, like, battling it out your entire relationship for things that don't matter.

Vanessa Marin (12:56)

Yeah. I just don't like the vibe of this one at all. I think you're both playing games with each other. You're both being unkind to each other. So I. I want these two to have a better conversation. Like, I want her to be able to say, you know, yeah, I don't want the pictures any. Please don't make comments anymore. I want her to tell him how he could be supportive.

Xander Marin (13:19)

Yes.

Vanessa Marin (13:20)

Like, genuinely, this would be helpful. And, like, let's look at better things. Like, maybe watch the kids while I go to the gym or, you know, help me meal prep better meals or, you know, whatever it is. Like, give him actual things if you want his support. But these mind games aren't working, so. Yeah, I would. This is a funny one. It's an interesting one to start with.

Xander Marin (13:39)

Yeah. You. Yep. Definitely tell him to stop. But, I mean, but only if you're also willing to stop playing the mind games.

Vanessa Marin (13:46)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (13:47)

Because if you. Yeah. Like, if you keep playing these games, like, he's probably gonna keep playing games. Like, you guys subconsciously know that you guys are playing games with each other and you gotta. Someone's gotta kind of be the bigger person and stop that.

Vanessa Marin (14:04)

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Xander Marin (15:14)

Yeah, that part is so huge. I grind my teeth too. And before discovering Remy, I had been through a whole number of night guards and the challenge with them. You pay a ton to the dentist to get it. You don't really know, like, what the material is going to be like or what it feels like in your mouth. And I definitely had the experience of like, I just paid so much money for this thing, it's horribly uncomfortable. It's like, you know, digging into my gums or I'm struggling to sleep with it and it's this horrible decision of like, do I keep doing this? I know it's good for me to wear it, but I'm also struggling to sleep. So yeah, if I had had that 45 day money back guarantee, oh my God, that would have been so, so huge. So this is awesome.

Vanessa Marin (15:54)

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Xander Marin (17:07)

And also, as we're recording this, we literally just hit five o' clock and as soon as we finish, I'M about to go slip into my Cozy Earth PJ bottoms and little sweater because it's so comfortable.

Vanessa Marin (17:19)

It's a little sweater we love.

Xander Marin (17:20)

Oh I know. It's. It's, it's a man. It's a man size sweater. It's a PJ set. It's a PJ set. It's like a long sleeve PJ set. It is so comfy because we love. We love being comfy in this house.

Vanessa Marin (17:33)

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Xander Marin (18:19)

All right, moving on. My husband doesn't truly participate as a teammate financially. He is self employed, works 40 plus hours a week. So he has gone from her home a lot but doesn't track his income and basically doesn't know how much he makes. This presents problems at tax time and I never know if when he is going to contribute to shared bills, savings, investments, etc. To be clear, he does pay his own bills, car insurance, phone, gas, et cetera. He pays one utility bill that is the cheapest and buys groceries. Then he will randomly give me money to help but I never know when it will happen or how much it will be. We've been having increasingly frequent arguments about the fact that he needs to track his income and at least attempt to put money in savingsretirement accounts. If he can't contribute more, I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with him just being okay with not knowing what's coming, going and not planning for the future with me, but rather just counts on me to do it all for us. I just feel like I don't have a teammate in a really important area of life. Every time we argue he agrees he needs to work on it, but then nothing much changes. He's in his early 30s and has been in his line of work since graduating high school. I just feel like he should have a better handle on that aspect of his and our life by now.

Vanessa Marin (19:30)

This feels so chaotic to me, like, I. Every couple does their, their finances differently, like choosing to share it or keep certain things separate. But this is pure chaos. Like he doesn't even know how much he's making. Tax time comes and you don't know like, what's going to get paid. This is crazy. This is like anarchy. Well, I mean, financial anarchy, especially, especially.

Xander Marin (19:55)

From the context of, you know, Vanessa and I have our own business and, and know what taxes look like when you are self employed or you have an S corp or an LLC or whatever. Like, knowing what I know about taxes in that situation, this is, this is a truly untenable situation because when you are self employed or like the owner of an S corp or something, what happens is you file your taxes and if you have income that you pay tax on, the IRS then makes you pay quarterly estimated taxes the next year based on an assumption that like your business, your income grows by some amount. And so like, you have to know if you are on track to make that amount or not so that you're not like over or grossly underpaying taxes so that by the time you actually file your taxes, you don't get totally screwed.

Vanessa Marin (20:54)

Yeah, this is just nuts. So. And there's also a huge mental load aspect of this as well. It sounds like she's carrying all the mental load around planning for the future. Like, this is not just paying bills in the moment. And it's also like, yeah, do they have any savings, any retirement account? What's the plan for the future? I don't know if they have kids or want to have kids. Like, this is crazy if they do have, like even more crazy if they do have kids.

Xander Marin (21:20)

And there's also the possibility that he's losing money. Like, it's.

Vanessa Marin (21:24)

Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like.

Xander Marin (21:26)

She'S talking about, like, oh, well, I don't know. I don't know how much income there will be at the end of the year. But like, you also don't know if there's just straight up loss.

Vanessa Marin (21:35)

Yeah, this is wild.

Xander Marin (21:37)

That's like, it's like a negative contribution to mental load. Like he's not just like making her handle it. It's like he's giving her more. He's in, in the negative. He's creating literal things for somebody else to have to worry about because he's refusing to worry about them.

Vanessa Marin (21:52)

This is wild. I feel like this sentence really says it all. I feel like I don't have a teammate in a really important area of life. You absolutely do not have a teammate. You have somebody who's just doing his own thing.

Xander Marin (22:03)

Have you communicated that to him?

Vanessa Marin (22:05)

That's what I want to do. Yeah. That would be a really power. It's so easy in relationships to fight about the surface stuff. They're like, you didn't pay this bill. We, you know, we have this bill that's racked up, whatever, but it's really about the deeper things going on. And to be able to say that, like, I feel like I don't have a partner that's gonna hit your partner so much harder than, hey, you didn't, like, fill up the gas tank, you know, when you borrowed my car, whatever it is. So I think that's a really important conversation to have. Yeah, I think that this situation is unworkable. It's shocking that you guys have lasted for this long with this system. So it seems. My guess is since you keep finances separate, there's. I'm, like, jumping into fixing this. I want to give, like, a solution here, but it seems like there's something that. Some reason that you guys want to keep some finances separately and that you like, that's fine. A lot of couples do choose soon.

Xander Marin (23:00)

Honestly, it's good. In this situation, I think that you.

Vanessa Marin (23:03)

Guys should have a joint account, and you put the majority of your money into that, and you make a plan with that together. And then you can have a certain percentage that you each keep in separate accounts that you can do whatever you want with. Like, it's kind of nice to have some money where you're like, I don't have to check in with my partner about this. I just spend it on whatever I want. Like, this is my money to play it with. But I think the majority of your money should go into a joint account. And I really think that you guys need to address. Address finances together as a couple. Because right now, this person is taking on all the mental load, all the responsibility for their shared expenses. And that's just not fair. It's the present and the future as well, and this is totally unfair. So they need to come together and make a plan.

Xander Marin (23:48)

But I think that there's even a step further back that we need to go, because, like, that it's not going to work to be like, okay, yeah, we have this joint account where we're each contributing X amount every month or whatever. Because this guy would be like, oh, well, I don't know what I can contribute on a given month because I don't know what I'm making. I only know when I have to at the end of the year when I do my taxes. And he probably doesn't even know. Like he. It's literally just like, oh, does the. Like is the IRS giving me money back or not?

Vanessa Marin (24:18)

I just think that's unacceptable though.

Xander Marin (24:20)

Yeah. Oh, for sure, for sure. So I think that this, like, I think that. Well, okay, first of all, I just want to say no, you should not put up with this.

Vanessa Marin (24:27)

No, you should not.

Xander Marin (24:28)

This is an unreasonable thing to put up with if you are in a long term relationship with this person. Yeah, I don't think you mentioned kids, but yeah, you're trying to be a team and possibly be a family one day. This is absolutely not workable. So I think there needs to be an ultimatum. Honestly, an ultimatum here of like, I am not able to live in an arrangement like this with you where we have no. Where there's no visibility into what is going on with, with you financially. That's not to say that this person has to immediately get better overnight, But I think you have to identify what a bare minimum is that you need him to be able to do. Whether that is like just. Just hiring. Hire someone to do your bookkeeping so that like we can like go into, you know, look at your p. L every quarter or something like that, or, you know, or it's like, hey, I need you to, you know, every month we. I need us to do a check and here's the numbers that I need us to look at in this check in. And you have to figure out how you can have those numbers every month. I think that that's, it's totally reasonable. You don't have to be like, look, you're, you're like totally perfect immediately. You have like perfect books. But I do think that I would come up with what is the minimum that you need to be able to do every month to just feel comfortable like being a team and being able to plan for the future together.

Vanessa Marin (26:03)

Okay, let's move on to our next one. I've been married for nine years. We have three kids together. And I have one from a previous relationship. During the course of our marriage, my husband has been running his business with his ex girlfriend, whom he has a child with. The business has grown substantially since I've met him, as has their relationship. I've never met her, despite asking him to introduce us. I've never stepped foot in his office or met any of his staff. When they have holiday parties, he goes by himself and they're thrown at her house. Am I crazy for thinking this situation is highly inappropriate? It's Honestly, the least of my concerns at this point. Oh, God. We have deeper issues now concerning infidelity on his end, But I have always wondered what other married women would think of this situation, because he himself paints the picture that there's nothing wrong with it.

Xander Marin (26:57)

Well, you're in luck, because we have a married woman sitting right here. Vanessa Marin. What is a married woman? Do you think about this situation?

Vanessa Marin (27:05)

This is batshit insane. I don't have a problem with running a business with your ex.

Xander Marin (27:10)

Like, I'm open to that.

Vanessa Marin (27:11)

I don't have a problem with having a relationship with the ex. It's. The ex is the mother of his child, so, like, of course she's gonna be in the picture.

Xander Marin (27:19)

Seems appropriate.

Vanessa Marin (27:19)

So that's not an issue. But to have never met her, that's really weird. Yeah. Like, I assume that their child is. Spend time with you. Like, why would she not want to meet somebody.

Xander Marin (27:32)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (27:32)

Who's spending so much. Who's like the stepmom to her child? Like, even with. Yeah. Even without the businesses. The holiday parties. The holiday parties are crazy. What? What? Why? I don't get this.

Xander Marin (27:46)

Well, I mean, the holiday party makes perfect sense. If. If you are not allowed to meet the person like that, then that's just logical. But it's illogical that you can't meet the. The mother of basically one of your children. You know, you. Of your. Your stepchild, who. You know, I assume you share custody of this child. So it's like. It's not like it's a secret who this person is. Like, you probably. The child talks about this person. It's their mom.

Vanessa Marin (28:13)

Yeah. And this has been going on for not at least nine years.

Xander Marin (28:17)

No, I understand. Like, nine years. I understand. Possibly. Like, I'm not comfortable with you meeting my ex who is the mother of. Of. Of one of my children. If you are on horrendous terms, there's. There's some. There's, you know, there's some issue. But like.

Vanessa Marin (28:31)

Or like, we've been dating for, like, two months.

Xander Marin (28:34)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (28:35)

Yeah. But not nine years.

Xander Marin (28:37)

Yeah. I mean. But obviously there's not like a horrible, messed up relationship because you run a business together quite successfully and it's gotten more successful and grown. Like. Yeah, that makes. That makes sense. Makes zero sense to me. I'm sorry. That's been going on for nine years. And I'm sorry about the infidelity. And that doesn't sound like a good situation. That. I mean, I. I would love for you to tell him, hey, it is unacceptable that I Don't get to.

Vanessa Marin (29:10)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (29:11)

This person. And I. I wish I could tell you, like, oh, yeah, maybe that will solve the problem. This sounds like a pretty. Just bad. This sounds like a bad situation. And I'm sorry that you've been married nine years and you got three kids together, but I'm struggling to see a path forward on this one.

Vanessa Marin (29:30)

I'm, like, fascinated by. I want to hear from him. Why doesn't he want the two to meet?

Xander Marin (29:36)

I mean, I even wonder if you were in a. I mean, given just what she said, the like, oh, no, there's nothing wrong with it. I feel like if you had a therapy session with him, he would just like, oh, totally, totally normal. I don't know. I mean, I feel like he wouldn't even give you a reason. He would just.

Vanessa Marin (29:55)

The most obvious answer would be that there's, like, some sort of funny business going on between the two of them. But it's been nine years. You would think if he was having an affair with his ex, like, it would have blown. And they're working together, that would have blown up by now. So I kind of think that he's not having an affair with the ex.

Xander Marin (30:12)

He's having an affair. Oh, man.

Vanessa Marin (30:16)

Also, yeah. Like, this is really sad that you're asking a question about this, but there's also the question about his infidelity, too. I mean, that's really tough.

Xander Marin (30:27)

I mean, I don't know his side of the story, but just from everything you've described, I think you deserve better than this. As hard as that is, unwinding all this with all the stuff, that this is no way to live.

Vanessa Marin (30:40)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (30:40)

Okay, let's move on. Just today, in the process of driving our daughter to and from swim lessons, I got yelled at twice in the car with daughter in the backseat. The first reason was that I was running late, so I got lectured the whole way there. He would say, I'm often late because I try to do too much. The second was because I interrupted him when he was speaking. In my defense, he talks a lot. I talk a lot less in general, so it's not always easy for me to hop into the conversation. Now, this in itself isn't that bad, but it happens almost daily. I take the biggest issue when it happens in front of my daughter. I didn't grow up with yelling in the home, and I don't want her to have to. I'm a huge trigger for him. It's been years, and it's not getting better. We go to therapy together. No real improvement I mean, maybe for a day, but we haven't gone an entire week where he hasn't yelled at me. And sometimes he even makes me cry. It seems like it's not bad enough.

Vanessa Marin (31:32)

Oh, no, no.

Xander Marin (31:35)

Yeah, I think it's bad enough.

Vanessa Marin (31:37)

It's bad enough.

Xander Marin (31:38)

I mean, it. It's. I mean, I get what. I get what you're saying. It's not bad if that is the worst. But it's like, it's not getting better. It's not getting better. And you've taken active steps. You've taken active steps. So, like, I hate to say it, but it can only get worse. So you could wait for it to get worse.

Vanessa Marin (31:55)

This is completely unacceptable. Yelling at your partner is completely unacceptable. Arguments, conflict, disagreeing, those are totally normal parts of being in a relationship. We are allowed to have conflict, but we're not allowed to yell at each other. That's just not just plain and simple. This is a rare black and white kind of thing. Yelling at each other is just not okay. Now, let's be realistic. We are all human. Sometimes, like, that does happen. But that would be, like, a rare. If this is happening, it should be a rare occurrence that is deeply and profoundly apologized for quickly thereafter. It's just not okay. And so the fact that this is happening every week that you say we haven't gone an entire week where he hasn't yelled at me, that breaks my heart. That is not okay. You do not deserve to be in a relationship like this. And that it's happening in front of your daughter, too, and is horrific. Your daughter should not have. Like, let's take the fact that it's unacceptable for you to have to deal with this. Like, let's take that out. Your daughter should not have to deal with this. Having to hear her parents, like, yell at each other, it's not okay. It's not healthy. Like, that's not a good environment for a child to grow up in. So I hope, clearly you have not been able to walk away or find a new therapist or, like, set some stronger boundaries for yourself. You're minimizing it for yourself. It seems like it's not bad enough, but I hope you can find it in you to realize for your daughter, like, this is not okay.

Xander Marin (33:39)

Yeah. And I think, I imagine that if you're listening to this, you might jump to, okay, well, at the very least, maybe I just need to tell him it's not okay to yell at me in front of my daughter. I think that the key there, you've said this guy has Been incapable of, like, not yelling at you for, you know, for a week. Like, he's yelling at you probably multiple times a week. There's no way that he is going to be able to, like, moderate it just in front of your daughter.

Vanessa Marin (34:11)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (34:13)

And, yeah, like, yeah, this is. This is not. Not an acceptable situation. Obviously, we all mess up sometimes, and, you know, we all get sometimes more heated than we wanted to. But, you know, it's so important to be able to, like, see circumspection. Like, oh, yeah. Wow, that was really out of character. That didn't feel good. I'm gonna, like, actively take some steps to make sure that that doesn't happen again. Or if I do find it is happening consistently, like, get some help to try to. To try to address this. And it seems like. It seems like. I mean, he's been willing to go to therapy and stuff, but. But, yeah, I mean, either you haven't been clear enough in therapy about, like, how serious this is for you, or the, like, Vanessa said therapist that you're seeing doesn't really take this as seriously as I would hope that a therapist would. You know, not that it's the therapist's job to take sides, but to just objectively sort of say, like, hey, this is seeming like this is a serious issue that we need to address together. On. Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (35:21)

Yeah. I mean, like, to give you some context, I think in our relationship, we've yelled at each other in 18 years. Like, once. Maybe there have been times where we've gotten a little heated and, like, voices started to creep up and get a little bit loud, but, like, actual yelling. I think maybe, like, only one. One time.

Xander Marin (35:41)

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't even. I don't even know. But, I mean, I think, like, in our relationship, there have been situations where one person has said, hey, it's starting to feel like your voice is starting to get raised, or like it's feeling like we are starting to raise our voices. Like, let's kind of, like, check ourselves. Yeah. And, you know, it's like. So it's like we support each other before even getting to that point where it's like, hey, this is starting to feel too heightened.

Vanessa Marin (36:08)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (36:10)

Which. Yeah. Like, I think it's. It's so important to be able to, like, identify. You know, it sounds like in this case, it's like it goes from zero to 60. It's not even. Like, it's not even, like, oh, you're starting to argue about something, and then all of a sudden, you know, and then all of a sudden, it gets louder and louder and louder and we're not able to stop each other. It sounds like it's like you're in the car and you're late and then he just yells at you.

Vanessa Marin (36:32)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (36:32)

So it's like, it's not even like there's an opportunity to be like, hey, I think we're getting a little heated. Like, let's, like, take a breather her. It just sounds like he has a serious temper. Anger problem.

Vanessa Marin (36:44)

Yeah, he does. Okay, so you need a new therapist. If you've been going to therapy together for a while and if you've been talking to your therapist about the fact that he's yelling at you so much and there hasn't been any improvement, like, this isn't the right therapist for you.

Xander Marin (36:59)

I wonder if maybe you should be in personal.

Vanessa Marin (37:01)

I think you should be in personal.

Xander Marin (37:02)

Therapy to talk to a therapist who's going to be on your team and speak, say, hey, I am not okay with this. I don't know. I don't know how to deal with this.

Vanessa Marin (37:12)

Okay. And I would consider this something worth ending a relationship over. If you have had serious conversations about this, if you've gone to therapy and your partner is continuing to yell at you on a weekly basis to the point where you are crying, this is an abusive relationship, and this is something like that you should walk away from.

Xander Marin (37:32)

And I mean, also worth considering, like, like, like stealthily, like, removing yourself from the situation. And if you're not, like, because, I don't know, like, has he ever shown signs that he could get physically violent? Cuz like, often, you know, like, that goes hand in hand with yelling or, you know, if you. If you have any fear that, you know, like, you walking away or saying, hey, I've had enough of this could result in further escalation, then this also could be absolutely something to. To maybe get some friend or family support in. Like, hey, I need to get out of a bad situation and I need. I, you know, and I need, like, to cut the cord immediately. I need some help with that.

Vanessa Marin (38:16)

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Xander Marin (41:20)

Do tell.

Vanessa Marin (41:22)

Here are their examples. Not washing hands after bathroom or blowing nose nose picking and wiping on back of couch and I've even caught him eating it. Sniffing and snorting, slurping saliva. Ugh. I'm a very tolerant person. Married 25 years. I've mentioned these things before. And he gets very defensive and denies it, but I'm denies it.

Xander Marin (41:47)

No, I don't. You do it.

Vanessa Marin (41:50)

But I'm about to lose my crap and it's all such a turn off. I think about this stuff when he reaches for me, like, is there a booger on his finger? Is this normal guy stuff? I've googled if this is divorceable, because I can't. We needed this one.

Xander Marin (42:09)

I mean, I, I hate to say.

Vanessa Marin (42:11)

It, but should you put up with gross slash weird hygiene things?

Xander Marin (42:15)

I mean, in this day and age, anything is divorceable if you, if you don't want to be there. Like, nobody is forcing you to be there. That being said, I mean, I mean, look, you know, I have a confession. I don't wash my hands after I blow my nose. And I know you don't either.

Vanessa Marin (42:36)

I've never heard of that, actually. Is that a thing? Are you supposed to.

Xander Marin (42:39)

I mean, it's not. I mean, in theory.

Vanessa Marin (42:41)

I mean, if I got.

Xander Marin (42:43)

Not on my hands, like, yeah, I mean, is mucus dirt? I mean, presumably mucus is dirty. Like, like it's gross. Is bacteria. But I don't know.

Vanessa Marin (42:51)

Never wash my hands after blowing my nose.

Xander Marin (42:53)

But yeah, I mean, I also, when I blow my nose, I don't come away with mucus on my fingers.

Vanessa Marin (42:58)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (42:58)

Like I, you know, I get. We have good, like double ply Kleenex that doesn't leak. But yeah, I do pick my nose sometimes. That is true. Sometimes I will admit that I do not eat my boogers, even though you accuse me of it sometimes.

Vanessa Marin (43:16)

I've never accused you of eating your boogers.

Xander Marin (43:18)

Yeah, you. Or you've joked about it.

Vanessa Marin (43:20)

Maybe I've joked about it, but no, I've never seen you eat your boogers or never thought that. I've seen you inspect them, but. And never eat them. That would be an issue if I thought I saw you eating them.

Xander Marin (43:29)

I don't, I don't know what they taste like.

Vanessa Marin (43:31)

And I have not seen you wiping them on the back of the couch, which I would also have an issue with too.

Xander Marin (43:39)

Yeah. I mean, Tony, what do you say.

Vanessa Marin (43:42)

What do you say to this sniffing?

Xander Marin (43:45)

And what about sniffing and snorting?

Vanessa Marin (43:48)

Also the ice. Yeah, the variety of these cracked me up. Like, not washing hands after the bathroom is gross. The nose picking stuff is gross. Sniffing. I'm like, what does that Mean, just like.

Xander Marin (43:59)

Yeah, I don't know what the extent of that is.

Vanessa Marin (44:03)

Snorting? Yeah. Snorting could be weird. I don't. Is she meaning, like, corking? Like the. Like maybe sucking your saliva? She's like, slurping sl. I hate that. That honestly would be a deal breaker for me. I don't think I could be in a relationship with somebody who did that. That, like, every day.

Xander Marin (44:18)

Yeah. I mean, I. I wonder if it's possible. You're saying you're a tolerant person. I don't know. You.

Vanessa Marin (44:23)

I don't know anymore. They're about to lose their crap.

Xander Marin (44:26)

You're not sounding super tolerant here, but I'll trust you that you're a tolerant person in other ways. I mean, I. I mean, I wonder, like, is it possible that there's maybe, like, a little bit of, like, misophonia going on here in certain ways?

Vanessa Marin (44:41)

I don't know.

Xander Marin (44:41)

I mean, because other stuff, like, you know, not washing your hands after the bathroom. Like, yeah, that. That is gross. And I can see now that you've called it out, I can see how not washing your hands after blowing your nose could be perceived as less than hygienic.

Vanessa Marin (44:57)

But I don't know about that one.

Xander Marin (44:58)

But, I mean, if you have a runny nose or allergies or something, like, I blow my nose when I need to blow my nose. Like, I blow my nose a lot. And it wouldn't be practical to be always. To be always washing. So. But yeah, so it's like, yeah, I totally get it. It. I don't know. How do you have this conversation with him? I mean, you might have to pick and choose on these where it's like, all right, buddy, The. The hand washing after the bathroom thing, like, that's just a hard hygienic boundary for me. Like, I need you to figure this out.

Vanessa Marin (45:30)

Yeah, I mean, this is. Okay. Is it something to actually divorce your partner over? Like, that would be a little intense sense.

Xander Marin (45:40)

But the impact. She's saying, the impact that it's having is like, she doesn't want to have sex with her partner. People divorce over. Over sex all the time. If you guys. If you find yourself incapable of, like, intimacy with your partner because of the way that you are seeing them. But it's also like, you're kind of saying that some of it is in your head too. Like, oh, I don't want to touch him, because maybe he has a booger or had a booger on his finger. It's not. You're not saying, oh, he touches Me and gets boogers on me all the time, if that's what you were saying. And it's like, I don't want to have sex with him because he literally puts boogers all over me whenever he touches me, then. Yeah. So it's like we're kind of in this weird twilight zone.

Vanessa Marin (46:23)

I think the issue is, though, that she's talking to him about it and he's being unwilling to recognize it. Like, he gets very defensive. He denies it. So that does point to, like, a bigger issue, that he's not willing to take your perspective, your experience into play. So this could come down to communication. If you're approaching him in certain moments where you're like, stop wiping your boogers on the couch, of course he's gonna feel ashamed and embarrassed in that moment. And of course he's gonna say, like, I wasn't. Leave me alone. Get off my back. Something like that. So I think having a conversation at a neutral time and saying, like, hey, look, like, there are a couple of habits that I would like to talk to you about. Look, we're all human. I'm sure I have some annoying habits of my own. I'm open to, like, hearing about those if there's anything that you would like me to change. But, like, these things are important to me. They do affect my level of attraction. I would love for, you know, this to be something that you could pay a little bit of attention to.

Xander Marin (47:24)

Yeah, I do think it is important, and I. Be careful with how you share this, because. Yeah, I do agree. Agree. I think it is likely this person has been. Has been expressing her dislike for this in a sort of shaming or almost like the way maybe, like, a mom would say something to a child. Yeah, like, you know, oh, that's so gross, or whatever. And so, yeah, of course he responds defensively.

Vanessa Marin (47:47)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (47:47)

But, yeah, I do think it is so important to. To find a way to kindly share the stuff about attraction and intimacy, because that is really important. And it's like, that's really. What's at the root of this, is that it's like, yeah, sure, yes, objectively, I think this is gross. I don't do this. I would prefer that, like, nobody do these things. But also, like, I understand that we're all different now. Like, the reality for me is I am finding myself struggling to. To maintain attraction or to, like, want to be intimate because I find myself wondering, oh, what's on what's on your fingers? Or, like, you know, what's on your hands when you're coming to touch. That's not a pleasant experience to have. I don't like it. You know, I've been, I've been trying to be really tolerant of it, but like, I can't. I'm finding that I can't stop thinking about this stuff and I'm worried that this could have a real serious long term impact. So I'm wondering, you know, so like, say this with as much love as possible without any shaming or like, negativity. Like, I'm like, I'm wondering if you would be open to, like, to looking at or considering some of these things.

Vanessa Marin (48:59)

Okay, let's do one more. Xana, I'm going to give you dealer's choice. Okay, we've got three options. Partner doesn't want oral sex. Should I put up with my boyfriend not being ambitious or partner and I have not had sex in three years. Which one do you want?

Xander Marin (49:18)

Oh, let's do. Oh, let's do oral sex.

Vanessa Marin (49:24)

Okay. My partner is an all around wonderful person who is in it with me when it comes to personal and relationship growth, but I want oral sex and he doesn't like it. Our sex life is not great, but we're in therapy and doing everything we can to get to a better place. Taking it slowly. However, he is very squeamish about going down on me. He can also be very squeamish about certain foods and other things. He said he never liked it with anyone and he can easily become disconnected physically and mentally, mainly due to his neurospiciness. But I really want that. I crave it and miss it. Yet I would never ask someone to do something sexual that they were uncomfortable with. I don't know if I should ask him to try anyway and see if maybe he could end up liking it or just give up.

Xander Marin (50:09)

Ooh.

Vanessa Marin (50:10)

Should you put up with your partner not wanting to give you oral sex?

Xander Marin (50:16)

Oh, this is, this is such a tricky one because, you know, very often our general, our general broad perspective here is that it is not so. She doesn't say anything about whether he receives oral sex from her and, or if he enjoys it.

Vanessa Marin (50:33)

Good point.

Xander Marin (50:34)

But in general, when we hear about men not wanting to perform oral sex on women, women, often there is a socialization element to it and, you know, and an element of like, you know, there's a lot of talk between men or especially, you know, teenagers, boys sort of like shaming people for performing oral sex or wanting to perform oral sex or talking about how, you know, it tastes gross, it smells gross, whatever. Despite the fact that all straight men want to do is put their dick in it, which is a little backwards to me, that thinking. But there's a lot of that that goes on. So of course, a lot of men come away with this sort of, like, toxic idea that, like, oh, they don't want to do that, or, like, my friends will make fun of me or something, and we think that's bullshit. Like, we think that very often when it comes to not wanting to perform oral health sex, there's the, you know, there's needing to, like, set aside the socialization part of, like, hey, who cares what somebody else would say? Like, this is about you and your partner and, like, giving your partner the pleasure that they want and usually the same pleasure that they give you. Because let's be really honest, like, usually it's like, you know, the stereotypical example is dude who loves getting blowjobs and was like, no, I'm not going down on you. So usually it's a combination of that plus also a guy not being that comfortable with his textbook technique, because that is such.

Vanessa Marin (52:08)

And we do have a resource for that.

Xander Marin (52:10)

Oh, we do. Our foreplay guides.

Vanessa Marin (52:12)

Check them out@vmtherapy.com foreplay oh, yeah, we've.

Xander Marin (52:15)

Changed a lot of lives with those foreplay guides.

Vanessa Marin (52:17)

Sure have.

Xander Marin (52:18)

Because really, for the most part, it is people. People don't want to do something that they don't feel comfortable with. And especially when it comes to sex. We got this idea that, like, we're supposed to figure it out, you know, in our teenage years or, like, early on as we become sexually active. Right. And like, we want to be good at it. It. And we have this identity of ourselves as, yeah, I know what I'm doing when it comes to sex. And if there are any things that conflict with that narrative, like, oh, well, I'm actually not that comfortable with oral sex or, like, I've never really liked doing it. We find ways to justify not doing it so that we can maintain this. This image of. Of like, hey, I know what I'm doing. So we find often if we can just get someone the technique that no one ever taught them, then all of a sudden it's a lot more fun to do something that you're like, hell, yeah, I'm really good at this. I'm bringing my partner a lot of play pleasure. That being said, I mean, I think there's some stuff here of, like, you know, okay, so first there's like, spiciness, squeamishness, etc.

Vanessa Marin (53:15)

Yeah, those feel like separate Issues for me. The squeamy. Squeaminess. Squeamy. Squeamy is a great word actually.

Xander Marin (53:22)

You kind of made it like an onomatopoeia.

Vanessa Marin (53:25)

The squeamishness to me feels more like a body shaming kind of thing. That he's like, oh, it, like, tastes weird or smells weird or whatever it is.

Xander Marin (53:35)

Yeah. I mean, she's comparing it to squeamishness. We with, like, food.

Vanessa Marin (53:38)

Yeah, that's not cool. So I would not tolerate a partner saying, like, I just don't want to. It's gross. Like, that's not okay.

Xander Marin (53:45)

That's why I'd be like, well, what? Like, you're cool putting your dick there.

Vanessa Marin (53:48)

Yeah, like, come on, dude. But so that's one thing to me. But then she mentions neurospiciness, and we don't know exactly what the spicy varietal is, but she does say, he says he can become disconnected physically and mentally. So there are things that you can do, and this is a common experience. Experience. I actually feel disconnected when I'm receiving oral sex because it's like you're just down there doing your thing. You're so far away. It, like, feels a little bit lonely. I'm like, okay, just, like, over here by myself. So there. I mean, there are ways that you can address that if that's what the issue is. Like, you know, we're incorporating more touch with each other, more eye contact, talking to each other, maybe doing it for shorter stretches of time and, like, going back to, like, making out with each other or switching between intercourse and oral, you know, back and forth. So there are plenty of ways to address it.

Xander Marin (54:44)

He's got to get through the squeamishness part first if you're going to talk to him about that. I feel like this is like a one step at a time thing for this guy.

Vanessa Marin (54:53)

So I just. Yeah, I feel like there are some ways to address this that could make him feel a little more comfortable. Ultimately, though, like, this is a really. Let's say he's like, you know, it's. Let's say it does have something to do with the neurospiciness. It's just a no go for him. Or let's say this is a different partner who would, you know, would say, like, that's just a boundary for me. It's not something that I feel safe or comfortable doing. This is a really hard decision for you to make of. And essentially what it comes down to is how central is this to your sexual expression? So we all have in every relationship, there are going to be ways that you're incompatible. There are going to be things that you're curious about or would like to do that maybe your partner isn't into. Just in the same way that outside of the bedroom there are incompatibilities, like, maybe you have a hobby that your partner couldn't care less about. Right. So, like, there are going to be some of those incompatibilities, but is it big enough for you that it's a deal breaker? Is it like, you know, frick, I really love oral sex. I'm super sad to say goodbye to that, but my partner is so amazing in so many other ways. Our sex life is great in so many other ways, which it's not, but they're working on.

Xander Marin (56:09)

So this hopefully is something that could be part of what you are working on in therapy with your sex life.

Vanessa Marin (56:15)

Yeah. So it's like, is it a, hey, I'm really sad to say goodbye to this, but it's worth it to me because of all the other things or there are certain aspects of sex where it's like, that's so central to my expression of, like, who I am and what I want to experience and what pleasure and joy and connection mean to me. I think it's totally valid and understandable to walk away from a relationship because you can't express yourself sexually fully. That's a very valid reason. And I don't know, I'm kind of. Especially because you're saying that your sex life is not good. If it was like, our sex life is great, but I'm missing this one piece.

Xander Marin (56:56)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (56:56)

I might lean a little bit more into, like, okay, well, is this not a super central thing, but the fact that it's not great and you're not getting this thing, that is pretty important to you. It's. I'm kind of wondering if maybe this is just. You guys aren't compatible enough.

Xander Marin (57:13)

So. Okay, I've been rereading this. I. I wonder something. What? I'm. I'm wondering if. I'm wondering how clearly and explicitly you have actually talked about this, this with him. Because you're saying at the end. I don't know if I should ask him to try anyway and see if maybe he could end up liking it or just give up. So it sounds like you've gotten signals from him that he's squeamish around this, but I suspect it sounds like you haven't had a super clear conversation with him about it. Because, like, I wonder, like, has he ever tried giving oral sex to anybody because you're like, oh, I don't know, maybe I should just ask him and see. So it's, it sounds like clearly you've never directly asked him to do it.

Vanessa Marin (57:59)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (57:59)

Because you're saying, oh, well, maybe I could just ask him and maybe see if he could end up liking it. So, like, has he ever even tried this in the past? So, like, I think that, I think that you. I'm guessing that you're probably beating around the bush around this a bit because you're, you're scared. You're understandably scared about what the answer might be. Right? And that's why you're asking us about this. Like, oh, well, could I just put up with this maybe? So I think that you're kind of scared to find out what the answer is. But look, the good news is you're already in therapy. You're already talking about your sex life. I think that this is something you need to lean into and not just be like, hey, dude, I need you to go down on me. But it's like, I think that in. Probably have this conversation in therapy, you have a container to do it, like, of just like, hey, I've been thinking about this a lot. I would love to talk about oral sex. I really realize I've probably not been direct enough with you about this topic. I can tell that you're, you're squeamish about it. You're hesitant about it. I know that you've, you know, said a couple things here and there, but I want us to be able to just have a really open conversation about it because I'm realizing it's something that feels important to me. I'm really missing it in our sex life. And I've been hesitant to, to ask you about it because, like, I, I, you know, I don't, I don't. I don't want you to, like, have a, A negative reaction that's going to make me feel crappy. But, like, I also need to know, is this something that you are open to at all? Because also, it's like, if he's never done it before, like, how does he really know what it's going to be like? I can. And, you know, and I think there's a whole element you can get into, like, hey, you know, if you've never done it, like, how much, you know, are you open to considering, like, how much of this is the way you've been socialized or, you know, some of these messages that you've picked up from society versus like, you know, truly, it's like a boundary violation for you. Or truly you, you know, it kind of like you disconnect or whatever. So, yeah, I, I have some questions about how open of a conversation they've had and I think that you just kind of need to get down to it because honestly, you need this information.

Vanessa Marin (60:09)

Yeah.

Xander Marin (60:09)

To make an informed decision for yourself. Otherwise you're just kind of grasping at straws and you're always going to wonder. And that's probably, probably like what you have going on right now is this is like, these are like the raw ingredients for resentment in a couple of years where you go, yeah, you know, like, I kind of want it, but I don't really want to ask, so I'm not going to ask. And I'm. Because I'm assuming that he won't want to. And then you're going to start being like, yeah, this motherfucker, like, doesn't want to, even though I never. And it's like, you're not. Yeah. Like you have a part in this too, which is like putting the stake in the ground and being like, hey, let's just get this out in the open and figure out so that can we, we can both make the right decisions for us.

Vanessa Marin (60:52)

If you're loving the podcast and wondering, okay, but how do I actually put this into practice in my relationship?

Xander Marin (60:58)

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Vanessa Marin (61:09)

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Xander Marin (61:18)

And we give you the expert tools you need to strengthen each one. And on top of that, you'll also get access to our core library of courses and guides like the Ultimate Foreplay Guides, the Ultimate Sex Guide, Art of Initiation, and so, so much more.

Vanessa Marin (61:32)

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Xander Marin (61:42)

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Vanessa Marin (61:56)

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Xander Marin (62:02)

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Vanessa Marin (62:15)

All right, well, let us know what you think of this series. We have so many other questions that we could go over as well. But that is it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release episodes every Thursday. Sa.