Zander Marin (2:55)

So it's only 16% of people that are like, I'm good or I want less.

Vanessa Marin (2:59)

Yeah. Which is wild if you think about it. Like only 16%. That's absolutely nuts. So let's talk a little bit about why touch is so important. Cause I think touch is one of those things that, because it's so simple, it's just like, you know, just reach out and touch your partner. Like, we tend to overlook all the importance and the value of it.

Zander Marin (3:17)

Yeah, we kind of take it for granted or don't even consider, like, oh, maybe this is something I need to put a little bit of an effort into.

Vanessa Marin (3:26)

So the first thing is that touch creates more emotional connection. Like, I think we think of touch as just this purely physical thing, but there absolutely are emotional elements to it as well. Like when we touch each other, it fosters this sense of closeness and intimacy. It builds a sense of safety and trust between partners. Especially non sexual touch, which we talk about a little bit more, a little bit later. And even chemically, like, it really, when we touch each other, it releases oxytocin, which is known as like the bonding hormone, the love hormone, which is the specific hormone that helps us feel closer and more connected to our partner.

Zander Marin (4:06)

Yeah, I mean, I think if you want proof of that, all you got to do is look back to the very beginning of your relationship. Like when in your current relationship or any relationship that you've had, it's, you know, very often it's those, you know, in the first couple of weeks, couple of months, like you guys can't keep your hands off of each other. And, you know, I remember like, you know, when we would hold hands or something, it would feel like, you know, like I'm like lighting up all over my body. It feels so good. And it's like the shortcut to emotional connection and just intimacy in general. And then it's like somehow we kind of forget that later on in our relationship.

Vanessa Marin (4:42)

Touch is also incredible nonverbal communication. Like, there's so much that we can communicate with our bodies. Like, we can show support, empathy, desire, reassurance, appreciation, like the whole range of emotions. I mean, it calls to mind for me, like those moments when your partner, like there just aren't the words for it, but like, you give each other a hug. You know, it's like what you're going through is so big, so overwhelming, so intense. But like, all you can do in that moment is just like hug each other. I mean that happens outside of romantic relationships too. Like let's say your friend is telling you something just like so, you know, so difficult. You're. You're gonna have that instinct to just like reach out and give them a hug. So it's, it's really important. Non verbal communication. It can also be validation and affirmation.

Zander Marin (5:30)

Oh yeah.

Vanessa Marin (5:31)

I think touch is what makes us feel seen, valued and loved.

Zander Marin (5:36)

I feel very validated when you hug me, especially unexpectedly.

Vanessa Marin (5:40)

What does that feel like?

Zander Marin (5:41)

It just, it's like, it's like, oh my God, she really loves me. Not. Okay, but like, I realize as I say that it sounds, it sounds like what I'm saying is I doubt that she loves me. And then when she hugs me unexpectedly, then all of a sudden I'm like, oh yeah, she really does. But no, it's just like, it's. I mean, I guess it's like the flip side of me saying it's easy to kind of take touch for granted. I think that it's also easy. You've been in a relationship for so long, you've been married for so long, it's kind of easy to take for granted. Like you know, the fact that your partner loves you, it's like, well, of course they love me. You're not really thinking like, oh, how amazing is it that this person is in love with me? And it's like in those moments, for me it's just this little reminder of like, oh yeah, she's really into me. That's cool.

Vanessa Marin (6:27)

That's cool.

Zander Marin (6:28)

That's pretty cool.

Vanessa Marin (6:30)

Touch also differentiates you from being roommates. So like of course we touch. You know, we touch our friends, we touch our other loved ones. But I think there is a special way with our romantic partners that we touch each other. That it's like what you were talking about earlier, that like can't keep our hands off of each other feeling. That's just that, that excitement of being able to touch each other. And that's part of what makes a romantic relationship feel so different and unique.

Zander Marin (6:54)

Yeah, no, I want to be really clear about when we're talking about can't keep your hands off of each other. We are not saying that in a long term relationship that you should always be touching each other at that level. Like the goal, the bar or the goal is not, is not like we can't keep our hands off of each other thing because, you know, because we talk about like just falling in love and like what that kind of does chemically to your brain. Like, we know that you cannot replicate that first, like six to 12 months of, of love in terms of like how it, how, how your brain responds chemically. Like, there's a reason why we feel crazy when that happens. And then, you know, after six to 12 months, it kind of shifts into more of a kind of like secure connection and companionship type of, of love. But I think it's important to remember that, you know, we can still incorporate things from that era. I think the thing is, is that a lot of people kind of shift from, you know, one type of love in their brain to, you know, the more secure type of love in their brain and kind of just go, oh, okay. Yeah, I don't really, you know, you can feel like, I don't really need this or you kind of forget about it. And it's like, no, we got to remind ourselves of the stuff that we used to do and do that somewhat. It's not like doing it all the time.

Vanessa Marin (8:13)

Yeah, definitely. Touch can also be profoundly healing. I mean, think again of like, maybe some of the worst moments of your life when your partner like gave you a hug. You know, it's like that. It's so simple, but it's so powerful.

Zander Marin (8:28)

Yeah. And it's like, probably the hug means more than anything that they might say. It's not to say that a hug always will mean more than somebody saying something nice to you, but yeah, it's like, yeah, when I think of times when I've been really sad or something, been going through something really hard, sure, it's nice to talk to somebody about it. It's nice for someone to be like, I'm so sorry that you're going through X, Y or Z. But like, yeah, what would you rather have in that? Would you rather have someone like say two sentences that are like, really nice and empathetic, or would you rather have someone hug you for 30 seconds that you really care about? I'm going for the hug.

Vanessa Marin (9:04)

Yeah, for sure. And even like, obviously I gave an extreme example, but even in those smaller moments of like after conflict, you know, a lot of us will like, give each other a hug to process it and move on. That's like kind of the final step of like, okay, give me, you know, we're over it, all right, give me a hug. That kind of thing, we're touching each other again. Or also, if you've experienced any sort of boundary violating touch in the past, like being with a partner who feels like your safe space, who feels like you Know you can accept touch from them. And maybe it's even in some of the places that used to feel really triggering to you. Being able to experience touch that feels safe again is such a healing experience for so many people. Touch also greatly contributes to building desire. Of course. Yes, that's a great way for us to start to get more excited, more in the mood, more ready for intimacy.

Zander Marin (10:03)

Especially people who are responsive. Sex drive.

Vanessa Marin (10:06)

Exactly. Us think that the pattern is supposed to be, like, you get turned on and then you go be physical. But for people who have responsive desire, it's the opposite. Like, you need some physical contact first in order to start feeling desire. And I think when being touched by your partner helps you feel desired and wanted by your partner. Like, if you and your partner are in a rut or a dry spell where you've been going a long time and they're not even touching you, like, you're not going to feel desired by them. And you're probably going to feel a little bit, like, sad or anxious about that. Like, why aren't they're not even touching me? Right? So it gives us that sense of, like, feeling desired by our partner. It's also stress relief. Like I mentioned oxytocin earlier. Oxytocin can really help lower our stress levels and just feels good to like, have a little bit of, you know, a little cuddle, to hold hands, to have a hug. Like, it just feels. Just helps stress of the day just, like wash over us and release. And it just plain and simple feels good.

Zander Marin (11:05)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (11:07)

Which is a reason that we overlook far too often. You know, just this idea, like something. If something feels good, it's worth doing, it's valuable just because there's pleasure in it.

Zander Marin (11:18)

Yeah, I think we struggle with this. Americans struggle with this. Our sort of puritanical roots. And like, oh, God, it's just hedonistic.

Vanessa Marin (11:27)

Yeah, no, it's worth doing. If it feels good, it's worth doing.

Zander Marin (11:31)

Life things feel good for a reason in life.

Vanessa Marin (11:38)

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Zander Marin (12:19)

Yep. I'm gonna go make one right after this.

Vanessa Marin (12:22)

He literally, before we started recording was like, oh, I need some cure.

Zander Marin (12:25)

I started doing the adver cure and I'm like, o, I need that cure. Matcha man, it's so good.

Vanessa Marin (12:31)

And they come in these super convenient little packets. So just take it anywhere in your bag, toss them in the car. Like you can have a little hydration anywhere you are. Hydration goes beyond just drinking water. It's also about replenishing the electrolytes that we lose through sweat, sleep, alcohol and daily activities. Water alone is just not enough to do the job. That's why you need to try cure. The electrolyte drink mix that tastes as amazing as it makes you feel. For Pillow talks listeners is offering 20% off your first order. Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting cure hydration.compillow and using promo code PILLow at checkout. That's curehydration.compillow and use code PILLow for 20% off your first order. I was so excited when Wild Alaskan reached out to be a podcast sponsor because I had really been wanting to eat more seafood. Like, we, we all hear how healthy and nutritious fish is for us, but I've struggled with finding high quality, sustainable seafood and that really just resulted in us, like not eating that much of it. So we decided to try out Wild Alaskan. We asked them to ship us some products first so we could make sure it was something that we felt comfortable endorsing because that is of the utmost importance to us. We always try out the products before we recommend them to you guys. And we, we're so excited when we got this huge box of fresh fish delivered straight to our door. We got sockeye salmon, coho salmon, Pacific halibut, Pacific cod, and Pacific rockfish too. Like, this was a real treasure trove of fish. And we've been slowly going through all the different varieties and they have all impressed.

Zander Marin (14:21)

It's delicious.

Vanessa Marin (14:22)

This is really good seafood. Wild Alaskan seafood is 100% wild caught, never farmed. That means there are no antibiotics, GMOs, or additives. Just clean, real fish that supports healthy ocean and fishing communities. They're nutrient rich and full of flavor. The fish is frozen right off the boat to lock in the taste, texture and nutrients like omega 3s. And it's sustainably sourced. It's wild caught From Alaska. And every order supports sustainable harvesting practices.

Zander Marin (14:54)

Yeah. Not only is it frozen straight off the boat, it is frozen very solid. When it arrives to you. It is. It's in a box full of dry ice. Like, it is very impressive. I think a lot of people get this idea of fish delivery. They worry about like a stinky box. Like, I promise you, this box, it is, it is frozen solid. So well packed. You're going to be so happy with this.

Vanessa Marin (15:16)

Yeah. I think my favorite so far has been the Pacific halibut.

Zander Marin (15:20)

Yeah.

Vanessa Marin (15:21)

You can try it risk free. They have 100 money back guarantee. They'll give you a full refund, no questions asked. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com pillow for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com pillow for $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Okay, so if there's so many incredible benefits to touch and like, honestly, we could keep going, but I didn't want to, like, belabor the point too much. But if there's so many incredible benefits to touch, then why are we not doing it more often in our relationships? And I. Okay, I have something really funny that I want to share here. So I had meant to post something on Instagram asking if you're in a touch starved relationship. Like, send us your story. Like, we want to hear a description of the, like, what does it feel like right now? But we ran out of time before doing this episode. I couldn't do that. And so I thought, you know what, I'm gonna go to vanessaai, our custom chatbot that we've built for our Deeper members. And I'm just gonna ask it to like, write me a description, like, from the perspective of a man married to a woman who's longing for more touch in their relationship. He's feeling touch starved in their relationship. And Vanessa AI spit out some poetry.

Zander Marin (16:53)

I mean, Vanessa AI knows what she's talking about because she's literally, she's talking to our Deeper members every single day about stuff like this. So, I mean, she's got her ear to the ground, literally does about, you know, what is going on with our community.

Vanessa Marin (17:08)

Yeah. So I'm gonna have you read it because I asked for it from the perspective of a man because we do hear about feeling touch starved more often from men in relationships. And it's funny cause I think that there's this stereotype that a lot of women have Thinking, like, men just want touch for sex. Like, that's the point of it. It's just to lead to something more. We'll talk about that dynamic more in a second. But we hear from so many men who say, like, I miss just the touch. The touch just for the sake of the touch. So I will say, like, what Vanessa AI wrote. It's very beautiful. Like this feels like it could come out of a book, but it really is very accurate to what we hear from men. So, Xander, take it away.

Zander Marin (17:51)

I don't really know how to say this without sounding pathetic, but I miss being touched. Not in a sexual way, necessarily. Just touched. A hand on my arm. Her fingers running through my hair while we watch tv. That little squeeze she used to give my shoulder when she passed behind me in the kitchen. I miss all of it. It's not like she's cold. She's not mean or distant. We talk, we laugh sometimes. But there's this gap now. A space where her body used to reach for mine without thinking. Now it feels like we're always just a few inches apart. Physically, emotionally. I don't think she even notices it, but I do. I don't bring it up much because I don't want her to feel bad. Or worse, obligated. I don't want pity touch. I want to feel wanted. I want to feel like she sees me the way she used to. Like she still enjoys being close to me. Like I'm not just some roommate she happens to love in theory but forgets to connect with in practice. And, yeah, I know. Life gets busy. Kids, work, stress. It all piles up. But damn, sometimes I just lie in bed next to her and my whole body feels like it's starving. Not for sex, not for anything dramatic. Just for her to roll over, wrap her arms around me, and remind me that I still belong to her. I'd give anything for that. Wow. Get me the tissues.

Vanessa Marin (19:07)

I know. I saw that. I was like, knife to the H. So, yeah, there is some poetry to it. But that's exactly how people describe it. Just that sense of longing and missing. The scene of lying in bed just wishing your partner would reach over and touch you. Ugh. It's so sad. Okay, so if this is what we are causing and creating again, like, why are we not doing more touch? The first reason that I want to talk about is simply that we just forget about it. Like, there's very often not some nefarious reason. It's not like we're trying to punish each other. Like, in the middle of Some horrible conflict. Like, we just fucking forget. That's being human. Like, we know all of these things that are good for us, that feel good for us, that have positive benefits and impacts, and we just get overwhelmed by the day. We're busy, we're distracted. We have so many things on our plates. Like, we just forget. So if anything, I hope this episode can at least be a reminder that this is really important and it's valuable and it's worth spending some of your time and energy on. And I think this can happen in particular for people who don't consider themselves to be, like, touchy people. In particular, a lot of people say that, like, oh, I'm just not really a touchy person.

Zander Marin (20:29)

That's just not who I am.

Vanessa Marin (20:30)

And actually, I resonate with that a lot, which I think surprises some people since I'm a sex therapist, but I'm not. I wouldn't say I'm naturally, like, I. A super touchy person. When Thaner and I first started dating, like, you had you joke all the time that you had to, like, teach me how to cuddle. It's just not my. My instinct to go, like, cuddle with someone or, like, reach out and grab your hand or give you a hug. Like, I have to consciously think about doing that.

Zander Marin (20:56)

Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, you. You. You preferred your touch coming from sex.

Vanessa Marin (21:01)

Yeah. Which probably a lot of other people can relate to too, but. Yeah. So for me, it's been a powerful lesson of it doesn't matter that I'm not naturally a touchy person. Like, there are so many things that we do in life that we're not. Like. Like, I don't naturally work out or naturally try to prioritize my, like, my sleep, you know, Like, I'm making a conscious effort to do those things.

Zander Marin (21:26)

Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Marin (21:26)

I mean, and I can do that with touch, too.

Zander Marin (21:28)

Yeah. For way too long in my life, I. I have this identity of myself of, like, oh, I'm just not a gym person. Like, you know, I had been to the gym, probably it was like, you know, going to the gym a couple of times, freshman year of college, seeing all these, like, big football players in the gym and just, like, polarizing, being, like, I don't look like them. I'm never gonna look like that. This is their thing. It's. Therefore, it's not my thing. That's not who I am. So therefore I can't do this. And, man, that, like, set me back 20 years. Honestly, like, that. That mindset, it took me about 20 years to change that mindset. And I'm so much better for it. So yeah, just, just because you are not naturally that person or it doesn't come natural to you, it doesn't mean that you don't need to do it, doesn't mean that there's no benefits in it for you.

Vanessa Marin (22:21)

Another reason that we stop touching in relationships is we just get into ruts. You know, we get into sexual ruts with each other and we'll talk about this in a second. But far too often like touch get looped in together in long term relationships. So if a couple is not having a lot of sex, they very often are also not having very much touch with each other either. There's also the love languages and anytime we talk about love languages, we love.

Zander Marin (22:50)

Them and we hate them.

Vanessa Marin (22:51)

I don't love them. I think it's a, I mean, whatever. It's a simplistic model. Of course. Any model where we try to break down all of humanity into five groups, groups like is going to be challenging. We have models that love that, that like, you know, it doesn't fit perfectly. But I hate the love languages model in particular because the guy who created it is a real a hole.

Zander Marin (23:10)

Yeah, sorry. The reason I say love it and hate it is like, I appreciate that. It's like there is a common, like the vast majority of people know what you are saying without you needing to explain it to them. When you're talking about like the five love languages or like, oh, like I'm more of a physical touch person or an acts of service person. Like the vast majority of people have a baseline understanding of what it is. But yeah, like Vanessa said, it's very simplistic. And then the big problem is because it's so easy for most people to self select into these categories, it's easy to get the mistaken impression that oh well, I am this type or you know, maybe I'm a combination of these two types, therefore I am not the other types, therefore I don't need the other types. So I think we hear from so many people that, you know, you utilize, you know, kind of a basic knowledge of this love languages thing and go, well, I'm not a physical touch person, therefore I don't want, I don't need touch. I don't, I don't need to give touch. I don't want to give touch.

Vanessa Marin (24:09)

Yeah. And so people end up using it as an excuse like, well, that's not my love language. But I think that this is one of the problems with the love languages is it's not like we only want this one distinct thing and all of the other things are like, not valuable because that's not our love language. Like, you can't. I would go so far as to say, like, you can't have a romantic relationship that doesn't have, have touch in it. Yeah, that's a essential quality of a relationship. So saying like, well, that's not my love language, like, that just doesn't, that doesn't work.

Zander Marin (24:39)

Here's a good example of if you're struggling with this. It would be like if we had a love languages, like model for school, for school subjects. And it was like, okay, so you can, so there's, you know, okay, there's like English, History, Math, Science, whatever. I'm just going to go for. And it's. And you know, it's like, okay, well which one are you? And it's like, okay, which one am I naturally best at? Or like, if I had to pick like one class to go to, like, what would be my first choice or whatever. Think about how weird it would be if we were like, oh yeah, well, I'm a math person, so I'm not going to do English. I don't need to learn how to write. I don't need to like read, you know, novels and stuff and like, you know, understand like, like, you know, all this stuff. Like that would be so. That would be crazy if you thought about that. Like, you know, oh yeah, from like elementary school onward, like all you do is the, your subject. Right? So I think that the love languages are the same way. It's like, yeah, almost everybody in school has a favorite subject or has a subject that they really excel in and they probably have a subject or two that comes a lot harder. That is a big challenge for them. But no one in school goes, oh, yeah, don't worry, that's not your, that's not your natural thing. Just don't worry about it. It's like, no, we have to little bit harder in those. I think it's really the same in relationships. So challenge yourself with the love languages. Yeah, it's great to know which one is sort of like the most meaningful for you, but it does not mean that the rest are not meaningful or that you're excused from them.

Vanessa Marin (26:14)

Another reason why we are not touching more in our relationships is unresolved emotional conflict. So I talked a minute ago about being in a sexual rut if you're like in an emotional rut. But that can also make it feel awkward to be physical. Like if you're feeling emotionally distant, disconnected from your partner, or like resentful, it.

Zander Marin (26:34)

Can be more angry. Resentful, that type of stuff.

Vanessa Marin (26:37)

Yeah, it feels super like nobody wants to give someone a hug when you're feeling resentful of them, like, stay away from me. Another very common dynamic is being touched out as a parent. So if you haven't heard that phrase before, it's this idea that if you are with kids or even just caretaking all day and there's other, other humans, like grabbing on you, touching you, needing to be held by you, being breastfed by you, like you basically your body reaches a point of being touched out. It's like, I can't have anybody else touching me. I can't have anybody else, like, needing my body, relying on my body for something, like, I just need to be left alone. Don't touch me. So that can come up very, very often for parents, especially for moms, especially with young kids. We have an episode where we touch on this. It's episode 61, putting the O back in mom, reigniting your sex life after kids. So if that's something that you are resonating with, definitely go back and check out that episode.

Zander Marin (27:44)

Yeah, I think when it comes to being touched out, I think the, the, the confusion that comes up for some people is that it's like, oh, you know, people, people look at touched out like I'm touched out as like a diagnosis rather than a symptom of a different problem. And so it's like, I'm touched out. So the solution to being touched out is nobody can touch me versus being like, I am touched out, which is a symptom of me not having enough me time, not having a break, not having enough support. And so, yeah, the solution is not like, oh, well, I just need to grin and bear it, be touched out all the time. And nobody else touched me once. I hit my limit. Because also it's like, yeah, what if you're taking care of the kids? And it's like, you got touched out in the middle of the day. And then it's like, well, shit, what are you going to do the rest of the day? So it's like, it's not an effective solution to just be like, sorry, partner, I'm touched out all the time. Therefore, like, this is just completely off limits. It's that, hey, there's a larger problem here, being touched out as a symptom of a larger problem. Let's as a team, attack the larger problem, which is me not having enough support, me not having space, me not having time for, like, some kind of transition ritual is where it's like, yeah. So, like, yeah, the solution to being touched down is not no touch. It is other solutions. Is getting more space for yourself.

Vanessa Marin (29:16)

Yeah, absolutely. Another very common dynamic is unwanted touch.

Zander Marin (29:22)

Ah, yes.

Vanessa Marin (29:23)

We have a whole deep dive episode on this one. It's episode 122, don't touch me. Like, confronting unwanted touch in your relationship. So in that episode, we talk about some of the most common kinds of unwanted touch. We asked our Instagram community about that, and we got answers. Like the boob honk, butt slapping and pinches, grabby or gropy touch, tickling touch that's like, too fast or too hard or even just being touched when you're overstimulated, including being touched out. So that's a great episode. We cover, like, a lot of different scenarios there from, you know, one extreme of, like, your partner repeatedly touching you in ways that, like, you've told them you're not okay with. Down to, like, more of, like, simple misunderstanding types of things where your partner thinks they're being cute or jokey or, like, this is this thing that you guys do, but actually you really don't like being touched in that way. But the bottom line with this one is if your partner is touching you in ways that you don't like or has had, like, a long history of doing that, then of course you're gonna find yourself, like, pulling away from touch, avoiding touch, like, even avoiding your partner a little bit. So there can be a lot of dynamics that get wrapped up in that one.

Zander Marin (30:37)

Yeah, I mean, this one's kind of similar to being touched out, where it's like, if this is something that is coming up for you, the solution is not avoiding touch the unwanted. Like, because I think a lot of people make the shortcut, oh, my partner just is bad at touching me or touches me in gross ways. Therefore, we just shouldn't touch. And it's like, no, the unwanted touch. Sorry, the unwanted touch is a symptom of a bigger thing of, like, hey, we are not talking about the ways that, you know, that we would like to touch each other and stuff that feels good and stuff that doesn't feel good.

Vanessa Marin (31:10)

And finally, I want to talk about making all touch sexual. So, unfortunately, this is one of the most common dynamics that comes up in relationships. We start to make this association that touch is supposed to lead to sex, and that can lead to so many, like, negative and harmful patterns. So if you feel like touch is supposed to lead to sex, you're Naturally going to start pulling away from your partner's touch in moments when you're not feeling open to sex. And especially if you're somebody who has a responsive sex drive and doesn't understand how responsive desire works, like you're going to pull away from their touch more and more and more. And it really can get to this point where it creates something called the. We call the bristle reaction. We have a whole episode on this too. It's episode 212, the Bristle Reaction. What it is, how it happens and what you can do to fix it. So that talks about like when you literally can feel your body bristle when your partner tries to touch you, it's like you're recoiling from their touch. And it can be this very confusing experience because, you know, you're like, I love this person. This is my partner. Why am I having such a strong reaction to their touch? And it's really because you've created this association in your head that you feel like it's supposed to lead to more. So that's a really, really important dynamic for couples to dismantle in their relationships.

Zander Marin (32:37)

Yeah, touch can lead to sex. It absolutely can. But I think that, yeah, when we have that pattern that currently in our relationship, we only touch in the lead up to sex, it's like, we gotta break that pattern. We gotta be having a lot more non sexual touch until we get to that point where we are able to just enjoy touch for touch's sake. And I think once you can really get to that point, then all of a sudden touch can start leading to sex again. Once we start being like, oh, yeah, this is enjoyable, let me enjoy this. And then very often we're both like, both partners are like, yeah, this is enjoyable. Like, let's take it up a notch.

Vanessa Marin (33:20)

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Zander Marin (35:39)

This week I am wearing our podcast sponsor Cozy Earths T shirt. I love this thing. It is so comfortable.

Vanessa Marin (35:46)

It's the all day tea.

Zander Marin (35:47)

It's the all day tea. Seriously. So not only it looks good, it's comfortable, it is soft as hell.

Vanessa Marin (35:54)

And you put that on by coincidence? You didn't know? Today we were recording an ad for Cozy Earth. We pulled this open and Xander was like oh wait, I'm like literally wearing my Cozy Earth T shirt right now. If you haven't heard of Cozy Earth before, they make the softest, most luxurious sheets, towels and clothing. We are obsessed. We have all the Cozy Earth things in our house and we absolutely love them. And they are especially cozy during those hot summer months if you're a hot sleeper. Their sheets are so breathable and temperature regulating. It really makes a big difference. And you can try Cozy Earth completely risk free. They have a hundred night sleep trial. You can try them during the hottest nights of the year. If you are not in love, return them hassle free. And they also have a 10 year warranty on all of their bedding products. That's a decade of cool quality sleep. Upgrade your summer. Go to cozyearth.com and use code pillow talks for 40% off their best selling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. Trust us, you will feel the difference. Xander's feeling it right now. You'll feel the difference that very first night in the sheets. Sleep cooler lounge lighter. Stay cozy. So let's talk now about how do we incorporate more touch into our relationships? If you're listening this episode and thinking, oh fuck yeah, we are, like, not touching each other that much. Oh, shit, I'm resonating with a lot of these reasons why we're not touching. Let's talk about, like, how we can fix this. So first thing is you and your partner have to have a conversation about it. Sorry, sorry, not sorry, conversations. Conversations are important. We're here to teach you how to have these kinds of conversations too. So I think using this episode is just a great way to get that conversation started so you can blame it on the episode. Tell your partner, hey, that podcast that I listened to this week, they had a whole episode about touch. And I didn't really think about this before, but now that I listen to the episode, I realize I want us to have more time touch in our relationship and kind of talk about how we can have more of that connection with each other.

Zander Marin (38:16)

Or even it could just be like, hey, I was listening to this episode and it really got me thinking and wondering, like, I might be guilty of some of these things. And, you know, I wonder, I wonder what you think. I wonder, you know, if you listen to this, like, you know, I'm curious if you might, you know, find yourself, you know, wondering if, like, what it would be like if we had more of this.

Vanessa Marin (38:35)

And of course, like, you can then use the episode to any specific dynamics that have come up for you. Like, let's say you're touched out. Like, you can talk about that specifically, you can go listen to that podcast episode that talks about that in more detail. But use this episode as a way to open up the door with your partner. You can also set an intention with your partner to add more touch into your day. And I think it's really useful to create rituals around it so it's easy to tell yourself, like, okay, I want to touch my partner more.

Zander Marin (39:08)

We should do this more.

Vanessa Marin (39:09)

You're gonna forget it. You might do it for one or two days and then you're gonna for. That's just human nature. It doesn't mean you don't love your partner. It doesn't mean you don't care. It just means we are forgetting machines. So if you can create some sort of ritual around it, like something that you do at a specific time or in a specific place, something that kind of ties it together, that can make it so much easier to remember. So I'll give you a few examples. We have a little ritual at night where, where we cuddle with each other. We have some skin to skin connection. It's just this thing every night. That's what we do. So there's that connection that's built in. We've created a ritual around it. We also are really intentional about when we say hello and goodbye to each other, we always give a kiss and a hug. A kiss and a hug. Yeah. So if you use these natural times in your day and you can pick totally different things, maybe you wanna do it first thing in the morning. Maybe you wanna do it like after you, as you've had your cup of coffee together, every time you pass each.

Zander Marin (40:12)

Other in the hallway.

Vanessa Marin (40:13)

Yeah, but like creating something that you can like tie it to so that you remember to do it. We also would encourage you to be more direct when you are initiating sex because of that tendency that so many of us have to tie touch into sex. That happens because we're not talking openly about sex. We're like initiating sex in these roundabout ways where it's like nobody's saying anything, but you both know exactly what's going on. Like, your partner comes up behind you and you know, has their hand on your shoulder and there's this lingering touch and you're like, I know what you're doing. Just like, ugh, it gets really frustrating. So if you can be more direct about when you're initiating sex, then that can help you guys like actually relax in the times when you're just trying to touch. And you can also be more specific and clear when just want touch too. Like you can say to your partner, like, hey, I just want to cuddle right now. Or like I just want to hug right now. But I think having some sort of language to talk about when I'm wanting just pure non sexual touch versus when I'm wanting sexual connection.

Zander Marin (41:23)

Yeah, because then you're building that trust with your partner that when, you know, they learn to trust that, hey, I initiate sex verbally when I want, you know, they, when I say I want sex, that's when I want, want sex. Not like when I'm touching you. Like it's not going unsaid.

Vanessa Marin (41:43)

Exactly.

Zander Marin (41:43)

And I think that the Vast. In the vast majority of relationships, initiation some amount of the time, from, you know, partially to all the time is going unsaid. There are things that partners want that they are not saying. And it's the worst feeling being on the other end of that. I mean, like, that happens to us occasionally with all kinds of things where. Where it's like, I'm pretty sure there's something that you want to say, but you're not saying it. And that's just. And it's just like, that's just a catch 22 position to be in. It's like you don't want to call them out and be like, oh, you're thinking X, Y and Z, but then just kind of being like, okay, cool. Everything is cool. Like, that doesn't work either.

Vanessa Marin (42:24)

All right, another tip is go for maximum bang for your buck. So we are all about being practical here. I know we're all busy. We're all overwhelmed. We have a million things on our plate. Plate. We want to give you guys the tools and tips that are going to have the biggest impact for the smallest input. So there are two things in particular that I want to call out. The 30 second hug and the six second kiss. We have great research showing that these are the specific timeframes our bodies need to release oxytocin, the love hormone, the cuddle hormone. And what I love about these is that they're so fast. Like, who doesn't have 30 seconds, six seconds in their day to connect with their partner? You can even do them at the same time. Like hug and kiss.

Zander Marin (43:06)

Just 30 seconds.

Vanessa Marin (43:07)

Just 30 seconds. It's so fast. But yeah, 30 second hug, six second kiss can make all the difference in the world and finally discover your partner's favorite kinds of touch. So I mentioned this a little bit when I was talking about unwanted touch, that there actually are so many relationships where we are having misunderstandings about the kind of touch that each other actually likes. This happened in our relationship. I think I told this story in that Unwanted Touch episode. But I used to tickle Xander. And I used to think that that was, like this really fun, connecting, silly, goofy thing that we do. Like, I would tickle him and he would get really worked up, and it was, like, so fun and funny. And eventually Xander had to tell me, like, I hate it when you tickle me. And I felt so guilty about that because, like, I didn't know. I hated that he felt so uncomfortable. It was, like, really sad to hear him sharing that with me, like, later. And it was like, I really, it was a genuine misunderstanding that I thought it was something that you enjoyed.

Zander Marin (44:15)

Yeah, I know. It's so tough. It's like, I didn't want to hurt your feelings. I didn't want to hurt your feelings. I wanted to be. I wanted to be cool and, like, everything was good, but, you know. But then I would also be, like, saying. But it was also tricky because it was, like, I would be saying stop in the moment, but I would also be, like, laughing hysterically because I was being tickled. And so it probably felt like it was a little game that I was playing and it wasn't. So. Yeah, we learned from that one.

Vanessa Marin (44:44)

Yeah. So I think so many relationships, like, are experiencing something similar where you don't realize that your partner actually, like, really doesn't like the way that you're touching them. And I think in a lot of relationships, touch does feel very vulnerable. Like, it is really intimate to touch your partner. So I think oftentimes we resort to doing these more like, jokey kinds of touch with each other, like the tickling or, like, you know, just, I don't know, being a little bit immature about it because it feels a bit easier to initiate that way. We also tend to do that around initiating sex, like using this kind of immature, silly type of touch. So being able to discover, like, how your partner actually likes to be touched in, like, a real vulnerable, intimate way is so powerful. So this is where our absolutely free resource comes into play. We have an exercise that we created for you is actually something that we did ourselves and had a very interesting experience with that. It's a very simple exercise. It doesn't take a ton of time, but it's gonna help you reflect on how you like to be touched. It's gonna help you learn your partner's favorite ways of being touched. It's a great conversation opener. Just makes this whole process feel so much easier. It is such a great place to start. And the best part, it's totally free. So we are going to link that for you in the show notes. If you're watching on YouTube, we will put a link for that in the description. So definitely check that out. Now, that being said, if you start doing this exercise and you're like, okay, there could be two options. One is you're like, whoa, that was really fun. That was really valuable. Like, I want to learn more. I want to go deeper. I want to keep exploring. Or you might. I just want to prepare. You might have the experience of, like, whoa. This is actually something that I am not quite sure how to explore. Like, there's. There are some questions in there that you might feel uncertain about. And again, that's what touch is all about. It seems so simple, but it's also very profound and complex and shockingly so. So you might have this experience of, like, I'm not sure how to answer that. So either way, whatever kind of experience you have, we also wanted to tell you about a really exciting next step from there, which is our sensual touch challenge that we're doing within our community. Deeper. We are so excited about this challenge.

Zander Marin (47:14)

We've been working on this for a while.

Vanessa Marin (47:16)

Yeah. And it is really, really fun. So it's a four week interactive experience. And throughout these four weeks, you're gonna get guided through eight specific types of touch. Like, very interesting, very exciting, very fun. A little sensual, a little pleasurable. Like, just really specific, fun things to do. Because when it comes to touch, I think a lot of us want more ideas. There's the obvious stuff. Yeah, I know how to give you a hug. I know how to hold your hand. But when you really think about what kind of touch is gonna feel very sensual to you, very pleasurable to you, what are the specific places to touch, the specific ways to touch. And this is some of our favorite kind of content. Like, we love getting into the nitty gritty of stuff. We hate generic advice like, no, just touch each other more often. Okay, great. But what do I do? So we decided to come up with this challenge to help you explore, like, eight specific types of touch that we have tested ourselves. We were very excited about this. So it contains, you get, like, videos of each of the kinds of touch. There's a workbook, there's practice prompts that go along with it. It's really exciting. And it's more than just the physical contact. It's also about presence, play, relearning, how to enjoy each other without pressure. It's just. Just very, very exciting. So if you're already a Deeper member, you will find the sensual touch challenge within Deeper. If you're not a member yet, hey, this might be your sign that it's time to join. Because Deeper is so freaking cool. And we are like, we're really building something over there. We're still in the early stages of it. It's amazing as it is, but we are continuing to refine it it and add new stuff to it. So if you haven't ever heard us talk about it before, Deeper contains access to almost all of our most popular guides and courses, things like our ultimate foreplay guides, Ultimate Sex guide, the Art of Initiation. We also have Vanessa AI, the custom AI chatbot that you get access to 24.7you can ask.

Zander Marin (49:26)

Yeah, it's been trained. It's been trained on all of our, all of our courses, all of our guides, all of our podcast episodes, everything that Vanessa and I have ever written. It's literally like in many ways it is better than our brains because our brains forget things. I don't remember every single thing that we've written or said. But Vanessa AI, she does.

Vanessa Marin (49:49)

Yeah. And you can ask her anything. She'll help guide you through things. And I mean, she can be anything. Like, she can give you ideas for date night nights, things to talk about at date night. She can give you a customized plan to get out of your rut. She can help you practice how to say something vulnerable to your partner. So you get access to her. And you also get access to double dates, like live double dates that we do or we cover different topics every month. The challenge is just one of the monthly things that we do. And there's even our five keys to everyday intimacy. There's a quiz where you get to figure out what is the key that is most lacking in your relationship right now. And you get this custom content that helps you rebuild that section of your relationship with again, very practical, simple, like maximum bang for your butt type of activities. So it's amazing. We are so excited about this and we've got an incredible special for you. Pillow talks. Listeners get 25% off their first month by using the code PILLOW at checkout. That's 25% off your first month with the code pillow at checkout. So all you need to do is head to vmtherapy.com touch to join us and we all kick off on July 7th. All right, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.

Zander Marin (51:19)

Sa.

Vanessa Marin (80:50)

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Zander Marin (81:35)

And not only only do they make sheets, they also make T shirts. I'm literally wearing one of their all day tees right now. It is super comfortable. This is honestly one of my favorite.

Vanessa Marin (81:44)

T shirts and also towels too. They they make so many different products. We love Cozy Earth so much. We've gifted them to all of our loved ones and they are just as obsessed too. So we know that you are going to absolutely love them and their purchases are risk free. You get 100 night sleep trial a 10 year warranty on all their bedding products. Products upgrade your summer go to cozyearth.com and use code pillow talks for 40% off their best selling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. Trust us, you will feel the difference the very first night. Sleep Cooler Lounge Lighter Stay cozy.