Biblical Foundations for Catholic Beliefs About the Blessed Virgin Mary (William Albrecht) | Ep. 560

Summary

Pints With Aquinas – Ep. 560: Biblical Foundations for Catholic Beliefs About the Blessed Virgin Mary

Guest: William Albrecht
Host: Matt Fradd
Date: January 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the biblical and historical foundations for Catholic beliefs about the Blessed Virgin Mary. Matt Fradd welcomes William Albrecht, a patristics expert and Catholic apologist, to explore central Marian doctrines from Scripture, the Church Fathers, and Church history. They also examine the contrasts and convergences in how Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants understand Mary, and probe the broader context of authority, tradition, and the lived experience of Christians across various traditions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mary in Scripture and Revelation 12

Timestamps: 00:15–05:24, 07:25–09:09

• William Albrecht asserts that the woman in Revelation 12 is primarily Mary, as "that woman gives birth to a child. Well, who in history gave birth to the Messiah? It's got to be Mother Mary." (00:15)
• Dual Imagery: While some Church Fathers and Protestants see the woman as Israel or the Church, William argues there’s no problem with dual symbolism.
  • “There's nothing wrong with having a dual imagery view there. ... The Bible can have dual imagery. ... Why is it wrong to view Mary as the woman of Revelation 12 and the church? There's nothing wrong with it.” (05:53)
• The earliest Greek commentary on Revelation (Oikomenios, 5th c.) interprets the woman as Mary, bodily present in heaven (04:25).
• Mariology's Impact: Engaging seriously with the biblical witness to Mary often draws sincere seekers toward Catholicism.
  • “If you begin diving into the Bible about Mary ... you’re not going to remain evangelical very long, man.” (02:24)

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2. Early Church, Protestant Reformers, and Marian Dogmas

Timestamps: 09:09–13:46

• Albrecht highlights that early Protestant reformers (including Luther) retained deep Marian devotion, including belief in Mary’s lifelong virginity, the Immaculate Conception, and bodily assumption.
  • “Luther believed in all of the Marian dogmas ... He believed in them till the very end.” (10:22)
• The shift away from Marian devotion in Protestantism began later, especially in the 19th c.
  • “You begin to gradually realize there is a moving away from the beautiful view, the beautiful portrait we have of Mary … the full break … comes very, very late.” (11:24)
• All Marian doctrines, Albrecht insists, point to Christ and affirm vital Christological truths.
  • “Everything we believe about Mary points to Christ. And it has got to, Matt. It has to.” (13:13)

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3. Biblical and Early Christian Evidence for Marian Doctrines

Timestamps: 15:21–19:35

• Perpetual Virginity: Not just from the apocryphal 'Protoevangelium of James,' but rooted in scriptural typology (Judges 11) and narrative (Mary’s words at the Annunciation, her being given to John at the Cross).
  • “Mary clearly was a vowed virgin. ... Her uttering the words of a vowed virgin, that isn’t the only clue we've got. At the foot of the cross in John 19, ... why not hand her over to any other brother or sister? If there were brothers, they would have been legally bound to take her in.” (15:29)
  • The “brothers” of Jesus in Scripture are always explained as relatives, not children of Mary (16:43)
• Assumption: Early evidence in patristic writings comes before the canon of Scripture is formalized; even if the explicit testimony is later than ideal for Catholic apologists, it’s still quite early. (03:44, 04:25)

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4. Eastern Christianity vs. Catholicism on Mary

Timestamps: 19:35–24:21

• Oriental and Eastern Orthodox affirm Mary as Mother of God, All-Holy, Perpetual Virgin, and bodily Assumed, but usually not the Immaculate Conception.
  • The Immaculate Conception, William argues, is biblical and found in revered Eastern Fathers such as Ephrem the Syrian. (22:38–24:21)
  • “They highly venerate Saint Ephrem the Syrian. ... and he taught the Immaculate Conception.” (19:47)
  • Ephrem's writings indicate Mary’s absolute freedom from original sin (24:20)
• On Marian Titles:
  • The biblical typology of Mary as the New Ark (Old Ark made of incorruptible, pure elements; so too, Mary is perfectly pure) (20:52)
  • Genesis 3:15's "enmity" is applied both to Christ and Mary, further supporting her sinlessness (21:50)
• On Dogmatics:
  • “The Church has already been believing this [Immaculate Conception and Assumption] from the earliest of times.” (13:55)

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5. Devotion, Extremes, and Practical Lived Faith

Timestamps: 25:44–28:23

• Can Marian devotion go too far? – Only if mimicking condemned practices of ancient sects (like the Collyridians who offered the Eucharist to Mary).
  • “I've never met anyone that tells me they worship Mary ... everyone I've met ... have a healthy love for Mary. ... holy Mother Mary does lead me closer to Christ. And that is the whole goal.” (26:16)
• Liturgy, Iconography, Converts:
  • Many are drawn to ancient apostolic faiths (Catholicism, Orthodoxy) because of the liturgy and beauty—sometimes as a reaction against evangelical minimalism. (35:11)

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6. Ecclesiology: Papacy, Orthodoxy, and Authority

Timestamps: 28:01–34:45

• Oriental Orthodox reject the Council of Chalcedon and papal primacy, holding to a different Christological language, but Albrecht sees much deep agreement in substance.
  • “Our Christology is compatible. ... If we come to the table ... I think we’re trying to say the same thing using different terminology.” (30:28)
• On the Papacy: Council of Ephesus 431 recognized Pope as Supreme Head (31:29)
  • “If you are an Apostolic Christian ... you are bound to the language [of the councils]. So if we have the language of the Pope ... in perpetuity ... and they agreed ... then they’ve got to return home, right?” (34:45)
• Unity, Disputes, and Variety within Eastern Churches:
  • Differences among Oriental branches (e.g., Coptics, Armenians) on original sin, ecclesiology (autocephaly), and canonical books. (32:26)

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7. “Internet Christianity” vs. Lived Christianity

Timestamps: 38:29–47:24

• Matt criticizes idealized internet images of Catholic or Orthodox worship and the tribalism of “real world” vs. “online world” Christianity:
  • “Have you been to your local Catholic church, or do you live on the Internet?” (39:10)
  • “A lot of these people don’t go to church. ... They’re in the real world of the Internet. It’s the new real world ... we’re now colonizing the Internet.” (41:20)
• Both note the hostility, cliqueiness, and lack of charity often more prevalent online than among real-life churchgoers.
  • “The real, on the boots people that go to church, they realize that there are all kinds of problems. ... There’s a big time, big time disconnect.” (41:31–42:13)
• On Apologetic Tone:
  • Charity and passion are not mutually exclusive: “The fathers had a perfect balance that we should try and strike of being fiery, passionate, and all the while remaining charitable.” (46:29)

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8. Modern Papacy, Media, and Catholic Identity

Timestamps: 64:22–70:17

• Digital Age Papacy: The constant stream of papal statements/interviews causes unique confusion for Catholics and a tendency to over- or underreact:
  • “We are living in an Internet age, Matt, where we're going to hear from the Pope multiple times in a week. ... In the digital age, you're going to hear from the Pope a lot, but not only are you going to hear from the Pope ... you're going to see the Pope a lot.” (67:26, 68:14)
• Advice to Catholics: Avoid sensationalist Catholic YouTube commentary:
  • “If there are any channels out there that you think are doing videos just for clicks ... and they're not really looking at the statements of the Pope or even examining church teaching. Well, why are you tuning in? ... Tune into something that's not going to darken your faith.” (68:24, 68:37)
• On papal infallibility: Not every utterance, tweet, or casual remark is infallible or demands assent. Know the difference. (69:45)

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9. Marian Titles, Co-Redemptrix, and Doctrinal Development

Timestamps: 72:08–75:29, 83:48–84:18

• Recent Vatican clarification:
  • Vatican says “Co-Redemptrix” as a title is “unhelpful,” not that the theology is false—just that it is easily misunderstood.
    • “The Vatican did not condemn the theology behind Mary as co redemptrix. ... What co redemptrix means is ... with the redeemer. It doesn't mean she's another redeemer. It means that she plays a role in salvation history.” (73:41)
  • Albrecht agrees with the underlying theology but sees no need for a fifth Marian dogma.
    • “I don't believe we need a fifth Marian dogma. I believe that Mary as co Redemptrix flows from her as Mother of the Church, as Queen of Heaven.” (84:01)

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10. Q&A Highlights

Timestamps: 75:29–99:57

On Receiving Communion in Orthodox Church

• Not in full communion, but may be permitted in exceptional cases of necessity.
  • “If we're in the middle of the desert ... only [Orthodox] church there ... and you've got to make your Sunday obligation. Are you allowed to attend their service and partake of communion? Yes, you are.” (77:25)

On Differences in Canons (Bible Books)

• Eastern Orthodox canons vary; some have more or fewer books than Catholics. Catholic canon is closed by Trent; further recognition is not possible, but extra books may be valued as ecclesiastical. (90:11–91:54)

On Re-baptisms and Chrismation

• Some Orthodox (esp. Russian) re-baptize Catholic converts, citing disputes over baptismal methods. (78:46)

On Frequency of Communion

• In Orthodox churches, Communion is often only weekly (varies by region); in America, more frequent. (79:47)

On Black Hebrew Israelites

• A modern movement (early 1900s origins), not truly Hebrew or Israelite, with racist theology, growing rapidly online and in some US regions.
  • “It's a movement ... very anti Christian ... They deny the Trinity, deny, of course, Christ is almighty God, denies the virgin birth, denies a lot of key doctrines of our faith.” (92:10–95:14)

On Debates and Apologists

• Albrecht names leading Catholic apologists:
  • Eric Ybarra, Sam Shamoun (esp. Islam), Elisha Yossi, Divine Mercy James, Joe Heschmeyer, and Trent Horn. (51:11–53:00)
• Readiness to debate Marian dogmas publicly (esp. James White), extending an open and charitable challenge. (89:02–89:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• William Albrecht:
  • “Everything we believe about Mary points to Christ. And it has got to, Matt. It has to.” (13:13)
  • “If you begin diving into the Bible about Mary, reading about Mary, well, then you're going to eventually begin looking at the early church fathers and eventually begin realizing how the earliest followers of Christ view Mary? You're not going to remain evangelical very long, man.” (02:24)
  • “I've lost count of the amount of people that have told me [watching our last episode] ... they have now become Catholic. ... All glory to God.” (01:39)
  • “I'm willing to debate any [of the Marian dogmas] ... bodily assumption, perpetual virginity, immaculate conception. I'll debate them all with charity.” (89:11)
• Matt Fradd:
  • “[Of Mary:] If you develop any sort of affection to her, you'll be Catholic within five minutes.” (02:14)
  • "[On the Internet:] Are you of the opinion that the Catholic Church is like AI Gregorian chant? Is that what you think it is?” (39:10)
  • “Humility rarely goes viral.” (48:10)

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Suggested Reading & Resources

• "Mary Among the Evangelists" by William Albrecht & Fr. Kappes – A biblical approach to Marian theology (07:25)
• "All Generations Will Call Me Blessed" by Fr. Manelli – Focuses on scriptural foundations for Mariology (07:25)
• PatristicPillars.com / EarlyChurchFathers.com – William Albrecht’s website for studies in Mariology and patristics (99:57)

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Episode Takeaways

• Catholic Marian doctrine is both deeply biblical and rooted in the earliest Church tradition.
• Differences with Protestant and Orthodox Christians on Mary often stem from varying perceptions of Scripture, authority, and tradition, but honest engagement with Mary in Scripture seems to draw many closer to Catholicism.
• The digital age has created unprecedented challenges for Catholic identity and debate, and calls for prudent, charitable engagement.
• The lived reality of faith communities is often more humble and charitable than online impressions.
• Unity among apostolic Christians is possible, but requires real and honest dialogue, especially about authority and tradition.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Pints with Aquinas is brought to you by Truthly, which is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help, you know, live and defend the Catholic faith. Start your 7 day free trial today when you download Truthly on the App Store.

[William Albrecht]

Primarily, the woman of Revelation 12 has got to be Mary. Because if you read the text, that woman gives birth to a child. Well, who in history gave birth to the Messiah? It's got to be Mother Mary.

[Matt Fradd]

I think so.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

You read the early Protestant reformers or the Protestant Reformers, and they speak very beautifully and, you know, Catholic kind of Catholic words about the Blessed Virgin, Luther in particular.

[William Albrecht]

The one piece of advice that I've offered Catholics, and I offer it to him to this day. Matt, if there are any channels out there that you think are doing videos just for clicks, and they're doing sensationalistic headlines or what have you.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And they're not really looking at the statements of the Pope or even examining church teaching. Well, why are you tuning in? Yeah, why are you tuning in? And tune into something that is valuable and tune into something that's not going to darken your faith.

[Matt Fradd]

William Albrecht, thank you very much for being here.

[William Albrecht]

Wonderful to be here again with you, Matt. Been a minute, but great to be back with you, brother.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, it is. Thanks for. Thanks for making the trip. Last time I had you on the show, it was you and doctor Is it capis Copus. Coppice.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. Father Coppice. The Reverend doctor Coppice.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay. Yeah. And we discussed everything about Mary. Wow.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, we did.

[Matt Fradd]

And people should go check that episode out because it's had over a million views.

[William Albrecht]

I think I believe a 1.5 million now.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow.

[William Albrecht]

And we've had a lot of people. I got to tell you, Matt, a lot of people that have loved it and have told me after watching that show, they've come into the fullness of the faith, they become Catholic. A lot of people said. They talked about everything that I wanted to ask about Mary. And they have now become Catholic. I have by the grace of God. And it is not a brag at all. It is everything. All glory to God. I've lost count of the amount of people that have told me that. And that is the beauty of the glory of the things, the way the Lord is working through pints with Aquinas. Beautiful. Beautiful.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, I often think of Mary as.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Like, if you start.

[Matt Fradd]

Let me put it this way, and I'm being a little tongue in cheek, but Protestants are right to keep her at an arm's length because it Seems to me that if you develop any sort of affection to her, you'll be Catholic within five minutes.

[William Albrecht]

You will, without a doubt. If you begin diving into the Bible about Mary, reading about Mary, well, then you're going to eventually begin looking at the early church fathers and eventually begin realizing how did the earliest followers of Christ view Mary? You're not going to remain evangelical very long, man.

[Matt Fradd]

How did they view Mary?

[William Albrecht]

They viewed Mary as number one, mother of God, Theotokos, God bearer as perpetual virgin, as all holy, as the new ark of the new covenant. And of course, as we know, as a woman who had a holy bodily assumption into heaven. When we look into the Bible, the portrait we have of Mary is a beautiful portrait. And as you. You bring up a great point there. The more time you spend with Mary in the Bible, the likelier you are to become Catholic. And, and I mean that. And I have great respect for my orthodox friends, Oriental and Eastern, but the fullness of Mariology, the full Mary, the historical Mary, rightly so, can be found within Catholicism.

[Matt Fradd]

Because I suppose the objection would be that Catholics took Mary and then got way too enthusiastic about her and started saying all sorts of things. It can't be vindicated by Scripture or even the early church. I mean, Gavin Ortland's done some videos in which he shows, and I think he might be right in this. You correct me if I'm wrong, that patristic testimony of the Assumption of the Mother of God isn't as early as Catholics would like it to be.

[William Albrecht]

Right. Well, the one area where we would disagree with Gavin, we'll agree that maybe we don't have a lot of early fathers talking about the bodily assumption early on. But for that matter, we've got fathers that talk about it before. We've got the canon of Scripture spoken about. But even earlier than that, a Catholic would argue that in the Book of Revelation we have Mary there present in heaven and bodily present. Indeed, if we want to go into the early fathers, Matt, the earliest Greek commentary on the book of Revelation from Oikomenios interprets Revelation 12 as a mariological in a Mariological way. Did you say the earliest Oikomeneus, Five hundreds.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[William Albrecht]

And that is the earliest Greek commentary on Revelation. He interprets the woman of Revelation 12 as Mary, but not only as Mary, but Mary bodily present in heaven, body and soul. That's the bodily assumption right there. So a Catholic, rightly so. I think Matt would point to Revelation 12. We've got Mary there in heaven, but not only Mary present in heaven, a lot of bodily imagery. When I say imagery of the bodily presence of Mary, there. There's a crown in her head and you've got her present in heaven with the moon under her feet. Very, very consistent with what we believe about Mary being bodily assumed. So even if I grant. Okay, well, Gavin Ortland is right. In 100 200-200-7, maybe we don't have any really fathers talking about Mary being bodily assumed. But without a doubt, when we get to the three hundreds, we do. And we have them talking about her assumption before. As I mentioned, we even have the canon being spoken of.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, well, that's interesting too, about the first Greek commentary, understanding the woman as Mary, because that was gonna be my response. And that's probably the response that many say of our dear Protestant brothers and sisters who are watching right now. They'll say, no, it's Israel. It's clearly the Church. It's Israel, the twelve tribes. It's the Church and the twelve apostles. It's not Mary. And look, it's filled with imagery anyway. And you guys are just sort of shoehorning Mary into that Revelations 12 where she actually isn't.

[William Albrecht]

And that is an early view. There's no doubt. Methodius of Olympus Victorinus. That is a very early view that the woman is Israel, the new Israel, the church. But with that in mind, Matt, there's nothing wrong with having a dual imagery view there. What do we mean? Well, the Bible is supernatural. If we can say Mary is the Woman of Revelation 12 and the church too, there's something wrong with that. And I'll tell you why. In Revelation 12, we read about a child that will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Now, that is quoting from Psalm 2. That is a Messianic psalm, and that is about our Lord. Well, Matt, in Revelation 2, that is applied to the whole church, that all of us will rule the nations with a rod of iron because we are connected to the head Christ. Showing you that the Bible can have dual imagery. There's nothing wrong with it. So our Lord is the one that will rule all nations with a rod of iron. But then we're told that we will too. So why is it wrong to view Mary as the woman of Revelation 12 and the church? There's nothing wrong with it. Indeed, I would argue, Matt, that primarily the woman of Revelation 12 has got to be Mary. Because if you read the text, that woman gives birth to a child. Well, who in history gave birth to the Messiah? It's got to be Mother Mary.

[Matt Fradd]

I think so, yeah. Yeah. Real quick, what would be the single introduction volume to the Blessed Virgin for those who are watching who go, okay, I'm open to what you Catholics say, but I still think it's kooky.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, well, I'm going to be biased. I like the book that I co authored with Father Coppice, Mary among the Evangelists, where we really approach it from a Bible, a Bible based perspective, and we talk about Mary and how you can find Mary in the Bible and how there's a lot about Mary that maybe people are overlooking. I'd really recommend that book, but there are a lot of really good books out there as well. Now, another very good book that I recommend is probably not as popular, but you can find it online. Written by Father Manelli. He's not alive anymore, but called All Generations Will Call Me Blessed. Very, very good book about Mary. And you might be wondering, man, why am I recommending number one, why did I recommend our title? And the other book, the one from Father Manelli? They rely heavily on the Bible. And I know our evangelical friends want to find the Mary that we're talking about in the Bible. And Matt, I believe you can definitely find her in the Bible.

[Matt Fradd]

I heard once this contrast between how the Catholics view Christ and the church and how the Protestants do. They said, and I'm sure you've heard this, you walk into a king's palace and there you have in the Protestant room, the king up on the throne and he's in a bare room, nothing else. There's nothing there that could steal your attention. But you go into the Catholic room and you've got the king and you've got his court and you've got tapestries and flowers and all sorts of things. How do you think this divide took place? Because you read the early Protestant Reformers or the Protestant Reformers, and they speak very beautifully and, you know, Catholic kind of Catholic words about the Blessed Virgin, Luther in particular.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And indeed, the imagery of that imagery of the wonderful throne room, if you will, with the king in the throne room. Well, who was the queen? It was the mother. It was not the wife, it was the Gabira. It was the Great Mother, the Queen Mother. That imagery is preserved in Catholicism and that imagery is biblical too. If we want to talk about Mary as Queen Mother, we go directly to Luke 1:28. Now, people may be wondering, where do you get that in Luke 1:28? Well, people are very well aware of the text that says full of grace, but that Greek word right before it, kaire, hail, is a royal Greeting indicative of royalty. And then we have Mary presented in royalty in Revelation 12 with a crown on her head and the Queen of Heaven presented as the Queen of the Church, the mother of the Church. With that in mind, Matt, every proto Protestant, if you will. And by proto, they use that term for people like Yan Hus Wycliffe, figures like that. When we talk about them and we talk about all of the early reformers, Matt, they had great respect for Mary. Great respect. And you talked about Luther.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

My goodness. Matt, let me tell you one thing about Luther coming. My whole family comes from Germany. As you know very well, I'm a convert to Catholicism. The majority of my family remain Lutheran. They have remained Lutheran and I pray every day that they come to the fullness of. But with that in mind, I'm very well aware of everything Luther believed about Mary. And let me tell you right now, Matt, Luther believed in all of the Marian dogmas. And I know the argument. They will tell you well, okay, William. Matt. Yeah, you're right. But as he went onward in life, he would abandon believing in him. No, he didn't really, to the end of his life. And I know because I've traced the trajectory of his writings. Luther never abandoned believing all of the Marian dogmas. Now, what he did abandon, he didn't like them being called dogmas or doctrines. But he believed in them till the very end. Meaning he believed Mary, of course, is mother of God, believed Mary was perpetual virgin, believed in the Immaculate Conception and believed in the bodily assumption. Indeed, long after his death, Matt, the feast day of the bodily assumption continued in Lutheran churches. So really we've got to ask, when did the disconnect happen? I'm going to argue, Matt. Probably around. Probably around the 1800s. Now we gradually have it on Calvin. When we get to Calvin, you begin to gradually realize there is a moving away from the beautiful view, the beautiful portrait we have of Mary. Then we get to Turretin, a Calvinistic reformer, later one, and he is quite anti Catholic and quite anti Mary. But believe it or not, Turton believed in the perpetual virginity as well. So the full break from the beautiful imagery we have of Mary comes very, very late.

[Matt Fradd]

So the Protestant might say, I just don't understand why it seems like you're majoring in the minors. Why can't we just focus on Christ? Why do you Catholics even have to make any kind of big deal about Mary?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, Mary points directly to Christ. We would say as a Catholic, everything we believe about Mary points to Christ. Mary as mother of God. Well, Mary as Mother of God means being the Incarnation is true, that Christ truly is fully man and fully God. Mary as perpetual virgin means that the Lord truly did preserve Mary and her vow, as she was a perpetually vowed virgin. And then Mary, of course, all immaculate, all holy. The Lord fashioned her perfectly like the old ark, while Mary is the greater ark, the new ark of the new covenant. That points to the wonderful things our Lord did for his mother. And then Mary is bodily assumed. Truly does show you that everything our Lord did for Mary did come true. He didn't allow his mother to decay in the grave either. Took her bodily into heaven, body and soul. A Catholic would rightly argue everything we believe about Mary points to Christ. And it has got to, Matt. It has to. Indeed. One of the wonderful titles we have for Mary is Ark of the Covenant, the new Ark of the Covenant. But if Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, think about it. What did the old Ark house? It housed the manna. Now, what did the new Ark carry within her womb? The true manna from heaven, Our incarnate Lord and Savior. Everything we believe about Mary points to Christ. And we would say we're not focusing on tiny details, we're focusing on very important ones. And we would also argue if they're biblical, if they are in divine revelation, we should believe them.

[Matt Fradd]

What do you say to those who say, yeah, okay, maybe that's right, but the Church is wrong to say that they must be delieved with divine and Catholic faith?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And that is one that is an objection you'll hear brought up very often. Now I would reply by saying, if anything is true, laid out in the Bible and in early sacred tradition, then we are bound to believe it if the Church tells us to. And I'll note one other thing, Matt. Even before the immaculate conception in 1854 was dogmatized and the bodily assumption in 1950, the document for the Immaculate Conception is Ineffibilis Deus. And then in 1950, Munificentissimus Deus. Well before that, Matt, built into the liturgy of the Church was the belief that Mary was all immaculate and the belief in the bodily Assumption, meaning you had to believe that even if the Church had not formally defined it yet people believed it. We had feast days all around the Catholic world, so people did believe it. So when the Church said that this is formally defined and you are bound to believe it, I would say, perfectly fine. The Church has already been believing this from the earliest of times, and it's perfect timing. Everything in God's will, I believe that when the Immaculate Conception was dogmatized, I think it should have been done earlier, but it was done at a perfect time as well. And it was done with the unanimity of the bishops agreeing that it should have been done at that time.

[Matt Fradd]

You mentioned earlier Mary being a perpetual virgin. Are you taking that from the Proto Evangelium of James or what are you using to justify that?

[William Albrecht]

A lot of people believe that. A lot of people will believe. Well, William and Matt, you're taking that from the protoevangelium. That's from the 150s. You have nothing before that. I'm going to tell you that I believe we have very solid imagery of Mary being perpetual virgin from the Bible. Number one, when the Archangel Gabriel greets Mary and tells Mary that she will be overshadowed. Well, even before that, when Mary gives her fiat, let it be done to me according to thy word, and indicates that the child that she will have, she says, how can this be since I know not man? Very often people point to this, Matt. Holy Mary was betrothed already to St. Joseph, meaning Mary knew the normal way children came about. But the one thing that tends to get forgotten, because it may not be so easy to notice, are the words that Mary utters are echoing the words from Judges 11. In Judges 11, the perpetual virgin, Jephthah's daughter, she ends her life as a perpetual virgin. She utters the words I know not man towards the end of her life. Those exact words are uttered by Holy Mary. Now, you may be wondering why in The Gospel of St. Luke, Mary clearly was a vowed virgin. Now, that isn't a view that we get only from the Proto Evangelium. I believe that's very clear there in the Bible. The early fathers believed it as well. They believed Mary was a vowed virgin. But that isn't the only other clue we have there, Matt. Her uttering the words of a vowed virgin, that isn't the only clue we've got. At the foot of the cross in John 19, when our Lord hands her over to the Apostle John, behold your mother, behold your son. Those wonderful words uttered, you got to wonder why. Why not hand her over to any other brother or sister? If there were brothers, they would have been legally bound to take her in. Now, Matt, I know the objection. I know it well. They weren't believers. We're going to get told they didn't believe. So our Lord had to hand her over to John. But our Lord on the cross would die on the cross and he would bodily rise from the dead three days later. Our Lord, who is all knowing. Don't you think he would have thought in his head he would have known? Well, in three days I'm going to rise from the dead and they're going to believe. Why hand her over to the Apostle John? Perpetually. And she was handed over because we read in the text, from then on, from now on, she was taken into his care. Had there been any other children, they would have been required under law to take the mother in, whether they were believers or not, Matt. But there are no other children. And there are no other children, Matt. Primarily, I believe we've got a key clue in the Gospel of St. Mark right there in chapter six, where we read about our Lord being a prophet without honor in his hometown and among his own relatives. Well, in that verse you read about the brothers, James, Joseph, Jude, Simon. But then our Lord will identify how their brothers met. We read about the brothers and even sisters, and then it'll tell you their brothers. Adelphos is the Greek word. And the females, Adelphi. But then our Lord will identify them as kinsmen, as relatives, using a Greek word that can never ever be used. It's never used in Greek literature for actual children from the same womb, meaning they're relatives of his. Now, how are they relatives, Matt? Then the debate does open up to. Okay, well, we know they're not children of Mary. Are they cousins or are they children of Joseph from a previous marriage? Or are they cousins and maybe one or two are children of Joseph in a previous marriage? And we have a variety of those views in the early Church. I'll tell you one view we don't have, Matt. We don't have any early father believing Mary had other children, not even one met.

[Matt Fradd]

How does the Coptic and Orthodox Church's view of the Blessed Virgin Mary differ from the Catholic view? And why should they go, in your opinion and in the opinion of the Church, one step further?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. Now, the Coptics and by and large the Oriental Orthodox, they will believe. Of course they believe Mary is Mother of God. There's no doubt. And they believe Mary is all holy as well. And they believe in the bodily assumption. The one area where they will. And they believe in their perpetual virginity. Forgive me. Forgive me. There, my friends are. Their ears would have perked up there. One area where they will likely diverge, Matt, is the Immaculate Conception. Why? Well, they by and large believe Mary had to have contracted original sin because Mary died. Not all of them believe that, but a good amount of them, and they don't have Mary's Immaculate Conception as a dogma. Now, why do I believe they should take the next step forward? Well, if we're talking about our Coptic friends, Matt, they highly venerate Saint Ephrem the Syrian. They love him. He's a titan for them. And he taught the Immaculate Conception. And I would argue it is biblical. If Mary is the new ark of the new covenant. Mat. Well, how was the old ark made? Overlaid with gold?

[Matt Fradd]

Pure acacia wood.

[William Albrecht]

Oh, yeah, Incorruptible wood. But if you look in the Greek, Septuaginthe Greek is very clear. Even the Hebrew, I'd argue pure elements were used pure. And you have the word pure used over and over with that in mind. If the old ark was made that way, all pure, well, very clearly the new ark will be even better than the older arch. And the new ark of the covenant is Mary. Think about how Mary would have had to have been made. Mary would have had to have been created perfectly made, without any stain of original sin. Now, how could we argue that the Mother of God had original sin if in Genesis 3:15, Matt, we read a prophecy called the Protoevangelium. Now, we're not talking about the Protoevangelium of James, we're talking about the Protoevangelium in the Book of Genesis. Now, why is it called Protoevangelium? We've got two Greek words. The Greek word Protos and the Greek word Ehuangelion. And you put them together, you have the Protoevangelium, the first good news. It is a prophecy about the Messiah that will come and defeat the devil. But we read about that messiah, Matt, being at enmity with the devil. Now, what does that word enmity mean in the Hebrew and the Greek? It means at complete odds with the devil, literally at war with the devil. If you look at that Greek word ecthron, literally at war with the devil, but that enmity is not only via the son and the devil. That enmity is shared by the mother as well. The woman of Genesis 3:15 is also at enmity with the devil. So if our Lord is at complete odds with the devil, his mother will be as well. And if we're going to argue Mary had original sin, then Mary would be under the dominion of the devil, even for a moment. Perishes. Odd.

[Matt Fradd]

So you said Saint Ephrem the Syrian taught the Immaculate Conception. Obviously, there's a distinction that needs to be made between the Catholic teaching that Mary was preserved from original sin at the moment of her conception, and then a view that Aquinas may have held, namely that she certainly was sinless, but would have been cleansed of sin in utero.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So do you agree with that? Sometimes you'll talk to Thomas. They get pretty frustrated when I say that big time.

[William Albrecht]

I'll tell you one thing. This will create an enormous debate if we open up that can of worms, but I'm willing to talk about it. Now. That is one area where I agree with you. I love the Great Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas the Angelic Doctor, one of the greatest ever. But unfortunately, I cannot agree that he taught the Immaculate Conception. I know a few people do think.

[Matt Fradd]

That he did, but I remember being hoodwinked once listening to a debate between Father. I forget now, but they said Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception. And they gave the impression that Aquinas said she was sinning throughout her life. No, no, he says she was completely sinless. He was just trying to figure out.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Anyway, so my point, without a doubt.

[William Albrecht]

And, and, and to add to that, Matt, that's a great point. I want to, I want to really hammer that home by me saying that I don't believe St. Thomas taught the Immaculate Conception. I don't believe that he denied it. I want to be very clear. And I can quote the great Thomas, modern day one. And you know him, you've had him on your show, the Great Dr. Minard. And Dr. Minard, who is, in my opinion, him and Father Thomas White are the best Thomas alive right now. And I've talked to both and they'll both agree on that particular point. Now here's One thing about St. Ephraim.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, real quick. I just want to.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Matt Fradd]

So when you say that he taught the Immaculate Conception, are you saying that we have enough in his writings to say she was sinless or are you saying that he goes one step further?

[William Albrecht]

He goes one step further.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[William Albrecht]

And I can tell you where it's nisibeen him. 27 or 28, depending on how they're numbered because we have a different numbering in Latin memory. I mean, I live and breathe Mariology by the grace of God. I love our Holy Mother Mary. And she's drawn me closer to her son. Now, when we read that particular text, Matt, not only do we read Ephraim, Saint Ephrem telling us Mary has no stain like Christ. He goes further. And he will then say Adam. Now when he brings up Adam, he means fallen humanity. Adam did not procreate you. And he will use the plural for Jesus and Mary, meaning they are not fallen. Now that is very powerful. And for people then maybe wondering, well, William and Matt, maybe you're reading a little bit into it. You guys don't know any Syriac, I grant that, but I am very good friends with the top Syriac scholar in the planet, Dr. Brock. And I have reached out to him to confirm the reading of that text. And that is the proper reading of that text. I would tell our Oriental Orthodox friends those that deny it, because some do not deny it. Those that deny it, man, I would tell them they need to embrace it. And I would make the argument, Matt. Now it's going to be a controversial one, but I make the argument it is only within Catholicism we have the fullest, most beautiful, proper portrait of Holy Mother Mary.

[Matt Fradd]

How do Catholics, and you might say, and I would say that they're bad Catholics, take devotion to Mary too far? Is it possible the Protestant wants to know or can you just be offering sacrifices to her and all sorts of things and Catholics are okay with it?

[William Albrecht]

I think there's definitely a way to take it too far. And that would be mirroring what the Coleridians did.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

Now, people may be wondering who are the Coleridians? They are an early group that offered the Eucharist to Mary. Right now we don't do that.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. I've never met a Catholic who thought was in any way confused about her.

[William Albrecht]

Never, ever, ever met. But I will tell you this. There is a big cult like movement in Mexico, but not of giving that worship to Mary, but of giving that kind of cultic worship to other pagan like figures. But the problem is people that don't know better confuse that movement with being part of Catholicism. And I want to give the tip of the hat. Our Catholic clergy have called that movement out over there. They've condemned it, rightly so. But there's not a living Catholic, Matt, that I have met. I've been Catholic for over 20 years now. I'm a convert. I have never, and I, praise the Lord, traveled the whole world. I've never met anyone, Matt, that tells me they worship Mary or that offer the Eucharist to Mary. No. Everyone I've met, even the most devout old ladies, Matt, they have a healthy love for Mary. And they've told me, flat out told me, holy Mother Mary does lead me closer to Christ. And that is the whole goal. Think of John 2. 5 at the wedding of Cana, Matt. People are drawn closer to Christ by seeing the miracles by him, by his Holy Mother interceding for the people. He begins his public ministry.

[Matt Fradd]

It's a beautiful thing yeah, I've never met anybody with a strong devotion to the Blessed Mother who hasn't also had a strong devotion to the Holy Eucharist. Oh yeah, okay, let's talk more about if it's okay. Orthodoxy, Coptic Christianity, this is something you've studied a lot. And I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters for a while attended a Byzantine Catholic church so feel a sort of an allegiance to the liturgy that they celebrate. So yeah, you take it away.

[William Albrecht]

I love him as well. I do a lot of work with Eastern Orthodox scholars, priests, even Oriental Orthodox. But we would be lying if we didn't say we had differences. We do. Without a doubt we do. Now how about we go into Oriental Orthodoxy first? It's an area, Matt, where very few people ever talk about. Maybe a lot of people don't even know who they are.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, let's begin there. What is it?

[William Albrecht]

Well, talking about the Coptics, we're talking about the Armenians, our Syriac friends, they reject the Council of Chalcedon, they will have the Council of Nicaea, Constantinople and then for them it ends at Ephesus in councils that we have in common. After that there is the break where people usually think, well, when we broke off from our Eastern friends, that was in the 11th century. No, the very first schism was in the 5th century and that was between our Oriental friends and the Catholics. They do not accept Chalcedon. In fact, Matt, they believe our Christology is downright heretical because we are what is called, are called Diaphysytes. We believe Christ is fully man, fully God, dual natures. They believe Christ. They believe that in what is called meathesitism, Christ has one nature. Okay, now you may be thinking, well they don't believe he had a divine nature. No, they believe the human and divine are so perfectly united that it is one nature in the God, man, Christ.

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[Matt Fradd]

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[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[William Albrecht]

The very same thing, but we say two natures in a perfect unite in a perfect union that we call the hypostatic union. They believe that that can lead to all kinds of problems. And they reject the Diaphysyte language. We are called Diaphysite dual nature. They call themselves me Aphasites. They reject Chalcedon fiercely and they reject Pope St. Leo the Great. And there are differences as well, of course, as you know very well. They don't accept the papacy. They're great people. A lot of them are really, really good people. What would I say to that? Matt I believe that our Christology is compatible. I think we're trying to say the same thing using different terminology, Matt. And I think that if we come to the table, we're trying to understand something so complex, the Incarnation. That's tough. Really, really tough to understand. And I believe there is a lot that we agree upon. And I don't think Christology should really separate us. Matt I'll tell you what does separate us. That's the papacy. They clearly do not believe the Pope is the Supreme Head. Now, what would I answer to that? Matt? No, I'm going to say something that will definitely. There'll be a lot of comments down here below when people hear this. At the Council of Ephesus in 431, when we were united there at that council, the Pope was recognized as Supreme Head. But not only that, Matt. That office was recognized to be a perpetual office, meaning that after Pope Celestine, the popes of Rome would reign perpetually to the end of time. They agreed upon that. That was when we were still united. Well, what church still holds that up today? It's Catholicism. And they don't have the Bishop of Rome. They don't believe in the Pope being the Supreme Head. But at the Council of Ephesus, they agreed to that. I don't think they have very good answers to that, Matt.

[Matt Fradd]

What's the structure of their ecclesiology?

[William Albrecht]

Autocephalus. Yeah, it is autocephalous. With that in mind, that's a Great point that you bring up. A lot of them don't agree with the others. Maybe some of our Armenian friends don't agree with some of our Coptic friends. They have, and those are some pretty strong disagreements. Sometimes they disagree on things like original sin. And I have encountered some that disagree on those particular issues. With that in mind, the papacy is a big, big point there. And if we can come to the table and we can show, and I believe that we can, Matt, that when they were united to us, they agreed to the papal claims. Those papal claims didn't pop up at Vatican I. I'll tell you that. They agreed to the papal claims. And if they agreed to the papal claims that when we were united at an ecumenical council, well, then they've got to return home, right?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. So the Protestant would have us go back to the Scripture to make the case for the papacy.

[William Albrecht]

Yes.

[Matt Fradd]

Our Oriental Orthodox friends would have us make the case not so far back. So where, where was that case made then, in those first few councils?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, so the case was made. We would argue that. Sarah, number one, we argue it's biblical. We argue the Catholic would argue the model of the papacy is a biblical model. Then we would argue that in the early church, very clearly, the early fathers recognize the Pope as the Supreme Head. I mean, you have it as early as Pope Saint Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthian Church, he is writing with papal authority. But our Oriental friends will agree. They'll say, oh, yeah, I know, Matt, I know, William. We agree. But the one thing that they do not agree upon is they don't agree that the Pope is the Supreme Head. They'll agree that he is the head, but the Supreme Head, they don't agree with that language. But then we get to the ecumenical councils where we're all bound to the language there. If you are an Apostolic Christian, you are. By that I mean Catholic, Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, they're bound to the language. So if we have the language of the Pope being in that office, the head of the church in perpetuity, and they agree to that, well, what is going on today? They don't have that. They have fallen away from that truth. That is why in charity, we call them to return to the faith of their fathers.

[Matt Fradd]

There's obviously an explosion right now in interest in Christianity. And then it seems to me that in particular there's a lot of men who are gravitating towards apostolic churches. Certainly, I see that in Orthodoxy. Is the same thing happening in Oriental Orthodoxy, too?

[William Albrecht]

It is. You have more and more people being pulled towards Oriental Orthodoxy.

[Matt Fradd]

What do you think that is?

[William Albrecht]

I think a lot of people really love the beauty of the faith, the ancient faith. They're called to that, the beautiful iconography, but not only that, they're called to the beautiful liturgy. And I'm right there with him. And I think that, and I say this with all due respect for a lot of our evangelical friends that are very anti Catholic. It is a way to become apostolic, but not have to go the dreadful route of becoming Catholic that they've dreaded for a long time. So they become. Whether they become Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, it's happening a whole lot more now. People are being pulled towards the apostolic churches. Now. The beauty is, though, Matt, a lot of people are coming into the Catholicism, too. We are getting a lot of converts. That's a beautiful thing. But a lot of people are being pulled towards the beauty of the liturgy, the beauty of the apostolic faith. And I'd say it's a great thing.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, I think it's interesting. The grass is always greener on the other side, as they say. And so what I'm seeing is people sort of spiraling to one green pasture and then finding another green pasture when they realize it's not as green as they had hoped.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And so I often see this in this, people leave one faith, become another, become another, become Catholic. And if that happens too quickly, I don't mean to be cynical, but I sometimes think, okay, I wonder how long they'll be here. And then they might go to Greek Orthodoxy, and that's not trad or hardcore enough. So they go to Russian Orthodoxy. And I wonder if at that point, when the grass isn't as green as they had hoped, are they then looking to Oriental Orthodoxy, since it's less known and less large as Russian Orthodoxy?

[William Albrecht]

Well, in Rokor Russian Orthodoxy or Greek Orthodoxy, there are no bishops or priests that are ever involved in scandals, or so they believe. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. A lot of the times they'll convert and then they'll realize the very same problems in Catholicism are present over there. And I'm going to rewind even further back, Matt. Those problems are there in the Bible. St. Paul was not happy in writing to the Corinthian Church. He flat out tells them in First Corinthians 3, I can't even feed you with solid food. I'm feeding you like babies. Why is that, Matt? They're living carnally. They're living divisive lives. So if you look at the church and you say, man, there's some bad priests, there's some bad bishops. Well, there have been bad priests and bishops from the very beginning. And the Bible warns us of wolves that will try to rip the flock apart. We've got to remain firm, number one. We got to pray for all of our leaders, all of our priests. We have to pray for them all and realize there's some bad ones out there. If there were bad ones in the Bible, well, they're going to be bad ones today. And I think people are of the mindset that while over here, there are no scandals, you know, there's no worry about any of these kinds of movements. No. But when they go over there and they realize, ooh, my goodness, I'm in for the very same here, than I would be that I'd find anywhere else. The fact of the matter is, you're doing the wrong thing. If you're judging your religion by how saintly the people are there, you're gonna encounter people that are wonderful and saintly, and then you're gonna encounter people that are wolves.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm playing with this idea. I've been thinking about it lately. See what you think about it. In the mid to late 90s, we had the real world, and then there was this thing called the Internet. But it seems that increasingly the Internet is becoming, for many of us, the real world. And by the real world, I just mean the place that we confirm our identity, assert ourselves, find friends, find, and then the actual real world is becoming this thing that we go to when we need supplies, when Amazon can't deliver them or something. And so I think it's interesting, and I want to kind of accuse Catholics before maybe accusing those who are going to Orthodoxy here, just so it seems. I hope I'm being fair.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

One of these memes that I hate.

[Matt Fradd]

Seeing is they'll show what a Catholic church looks like, and then a Protestant church, and the Protestant church is a clown show, and the Catholic Church is this glorious cathedral, and it's just okay. Have you been to your local Catholic church, or do you live on the Internet? Are you of the opinion that the Catholic Church is like AI Gregorian chant? Is that what you think it is? Right. And so I think there's something similar. Like online, I heard somebody say to me, eastern Orthodoxy has terrific curb appeal, in the same way that you might say that the traditional Catholicism has beautiful curb appeal. It actually does. I'm not saying it does. It really does. You've got these beautiful monks and their Jesus Prayer rope and their big beards and the candles and the incense. And similarly with the. But then you gotta go out into the real world. Like, then you gotta go to your parish up the road. And your parish up the road, whether it's Catholic or Orthodox or whatever it is, probably doesn't look like the idealized version of the Instagram accounts you've been following.

[William Albrecht]

Right. That then opens up the door. What do we. What are we judging the religion by. By the mere looks of it, or are you actually studying what they believe? Now? Let me tell you one thing, Matt. I was in England about four or five months ago. I went with my family and I took my wife to an Anglican church over there. We walked in. Gorgeous church. Gorgeous. But let me tell you something first, Matt. We walk in and we sit down. My wife thought it was the Catholic Church. She didn't know.

[Matt Fradd]

I made that mistake before myself.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, right. They're beautiful. With that in mind, I've got a big problem with those memes. A lot of the times they're caricatures, Matt, because there are some Protestant churches that are beautiful.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

With that in mind, we've got to look at what is the belief? What is the dogmatic teaching? What are they teaching? Because if we went to an Anglican church and we said, well, man, this is a beautiful church. This must be the truth. Well, then you begin hearing exactly what they teach, and it doesn't line up with the faith of the apostles. A lot of those memes don't really represent the truth. And that is a problem. A lot of these people. A lot of these people don't go to church. I feel with the people that make.

[Matt Fradd]

These memes, that's my point. They're in the real world of the Internet. It's the new real world. It's like we. One day we'll go and colonize Mars and leave Earth behind. I feel like we've left real life behind and we're now colonizing the Internet. Right.

[William Albrecht]

Because the real, on the boots people that go to church, they realize that there are all kinds of problems. They do. And the real people in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, there are a lot of really, really good people over there.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, my goodness. That's my point, too. When I go. When I meet Orthodox people and we get into a discussion, I'm so impressed with them. And then I go online, and sometimes I am, but often less so. There's a sort of an aggression and an arrogance and a condescension that I keep coming across. Now I'm not saying that doesn't happen in Catholicism too. It definitely does.

[William Albrecht]

Oh, we got the people doing that too.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

100%.

[Matt Fradd]

God forgive me for the times that I've fallen into that. So I. But my point is just this weird disconnect isn't there, between the online world and the offline world?

[William Albrecht]

A big time, big time disconnect. The real people, the real. On the boots, on the ground people going to church, they're not as hostile as the people you're going to encounter online. Now, in the online world, you're right, There's a lot of nasty people in Eastern Orthodoxy, in Oriental Orthodoxy as well. I got to tell you, there's some nasty people there.

[Matt Fradd]

All right. Haven't seen them yet.

[William Albrecht]

Oh, yeah. They're becoming as nasty as the Eastern Orthodox online. But I'm going to call our own out too.

[Matt Fradd]

Thank you.

[William Albrecht]

I have to, man. In Catholicism, we've got our own people that are as bad. And these are the online people. In the real world, people that are going to mass don't act this way. They don't act this way.

[Matt Fradd]

Why is it, what is it that makes us do that online?

[William Albrecht]

I think there's an idea of a blood sport online. People who've got the wrong idea that you're going into an online dialogue to annihilate your opponent.

[Matt Fradd]

It used to be, I don't know, we're probably roughly the same age. Yeah. Did you grow up? Do you ever play video games like Doom or Wolfenstein? Man, I love these games.

[William Albrecht]

Great games back in the day.

[Matt Fradd]

So here's the analogy, and I'm getting this a little bit from Eric Ybarra. Right. So you and I were playing Doom, maybe, you know, where we're shooting aliens and feeling like kings, and then, you know, a little the Internet comes in and then you could play with friends. And at the beginning, you had to hook your computer up and it was all the more exciting when you and your friend were playing. And then, you know, well, now it's almost like, well, we've dropped the fake guns and now Twitter is the new Doom. Oh, yeah. And all of the attacks and all of the outrage, it's just shallow entertainment that gets our blood pumping and our heart beating. Maybe the way that Doom used to.

[William Albrecht]

Without a doubt. And I think that it can become nastier than Doom could have been back in the day.

[Matt Fradd]

It could have been too. Right.

[William Albrecht]

It really can. And it can get to the point where the charitable is lost.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

Because I feel that a lot of these dialogues, look, if you're not doing this to glorify God. Why are you doing it? If you are doing this for pride, why are you doing it? Because all glory goes to God. Now, I'm not going to sit here and lie to you, Matt, and say that I don't go into debates wanting to win. I do. But I prepare and I realize, well, I want to do well because I'm glorifying God. And I realize a lot of people are going to hear the debate and I want to bring people to our Lord. But the idea is not. Let me tell you something, Matt. The idea is not to go into debate and crush and, you know, annihilate the opponent. Let me tell you one thing, Matt. The Lord has blessed me. I have debated some of the top atheists in the world, Muslims in the world, Protestants. Let me tell you another thing, Matt. I remain friends with all of them to this day. Friends with all of them to this day. I have some of the top atheists around Christmastime that'll message me merry Christmas. I remain on friendly terms with all of them. The reason being behind the scenes, they know this and they can say it on the air. I tell them, I really want you to come to Christ. One of them, you may know him, he's been in your show, Dr. John Loftus. After a debate we had a year ago, he called me after the debate and he told me, man, you really believe this, don't you? I said, I do. I do. He said, why do you keep debating me? He said, because one day I hope that you are side by side with me at Mass, worshiping God in the Eucharist. He went quiet. He said, you really want that? I said, that's the goal. The goal is not to humiliate anyone. The goal is to bring them to Christ. And if you've lost that vision, you shouldn't be doing that.

[Matt Fradd]

I think that's terrific. I couldn't agree more. I think what happens, though, is when people on the Internet world, in the Internet world, who. They're listening to us here, when they hear that language of charity and kindness, they think those are mush words and that we're really somehow compromising. And there's this new idea. It seems to me maybe I'm just an old man and I'm trying to understand the youngins, but the youngins are dropping F bombs and shouting at each other and. And that this is, you know, this is the litmus test. Are you really passionate about this or not? And I just never saw the church fathers. Well, I mean, there was One church father that came close to maybe that kind of graphic language of, well, I.

[William Albrecht]

Think the fathers had a perfect balance that we should try and strike of being fiery, passionate, and all the while remaining charitable. I believe it's very possible. Matt, what do we mean by fiery? Mean by you being on fire for your faith, convicted, truly defending your faith all the time. And then charitable, meaning you don't have to insult your opponent, you don't have to degrade him or try to, you know, lessen his value. He's got human dignity. Think about it. Made in the image and likeness of God. We're all made in the image and likeness of God. And we've got to keep that in mind when dialoguing with anyone. And in the online world, I think it really does get forgotten a lot. I'm not on Twitter a whole lot.

[Matt Fradd]

Good idea.

[William Albrecht]

But every now and then I'll pop up on my phone. I don't have the time to be in Twitter a lot. Every now and then I'll pop open my phone. I gotta tell you, Matt, I don't know how often you use Twitter.

[Matt Fradd]

Almost never.

[William Albrecht]

Almost never. I'm a complete, what would be called a noob. I'll open it up every now and then after maybe a month, maybe once a month, and I'll see like about hundreds of notifications, meaning people have mentioned me or whatever. And I'll tap it and I'll go and I'll look and my goodness, Matt, if I was thin skinned. Well, the amount of, I mean, tap it. The amount of insults that are there. And I click the. Every now and then I'll click the profile. It'll be a random, random profile with no profile picture because people think that they can say anything online and you know, they can get away with it and there are no consequences. Well, there are always going to be consequences because the Lord is aware of everything you're doing, of everything. And I find that to be very toxic. Unfortunate.

[Matt Fradd]

I remember I interviewed a Dominican priest, Father Nicanor Ostriarco, and he said this one line that I'll remember till the day I die. He said, humility rarely goes viral. And I think that explains why we all feel we need to be bombastic and ridiculous online. Because we need people's attention. We'd like to be liked. We'd like people to notice us because we feel alone and scared.

[William Albrecht]

They need those clicks, Matt.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, it comes from us. Can come from. From a lonely place. Okay, so this charity that you hope to have and show towards your opponents is this Something you've grown in. Did you come out the gate swinging hard and realize you had to repent of some of that? I did.

[William Albrecht]

I did. I did come out of the gate in the early days, I was very bitter, Matt. Very, very bitter. Now I've been debating for a long time. I had hair back then. I don't have hair anymore. Way back when, Matt. I was bitter and mad. Why was I bitter and mad? I felt lied to. I was a Protestant for a long time, and when I began reading the Early Fathers, I felt, man, I was really deceived. I was upset. And my goal was to try to not convert anyone, but to pulverize everyone, including family, because I felt overwhelmed at the amount of people around me that were still Protestant. As time went by, my outlook has completely changed. My goal is to bring people to Christ. My goal is to evangelize. My goal is to use the gifts the Lord has given me, to teach, to help people out. In the beginning, it was very different. It was a very different thing because I was bitter, I was angry, I felt lied to. Today I have much more charity towards people that I don't agree with and I don't agree. We disagree strongly with our evangelical friends, Protestant interlocutors. We do. And of course, we disagree with our Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox friends. We disagree, but there are ways of disagreeing and remaining charitable where at the end of the day, I can tell an Oriental Orthodox friend, man, I don't agree with you, but, hey, how about we go get a beer? I consider you a brother. And there is a good friend of mine. He's a near and dear friend, close friend of mine. He's one of their best in the online world. And in the real world, Guy's very charitable. But we heavily disagree to the point where we'll go back and forth and, you know, I'll tell him flat out, I think you need to become Catholic. He'll tell me, I think you need to abandon it and become Oriental Orthodox. But at the end of the day, we have never had that rupture in friendship.

[Matt Fradd]

If you think of, you know, think of Catholicism as an island, and it's being attacked by different ideologies and religions. Okay, so who do you think some of the best defenders are who are warding off these attacks and are showing why the attacks don't work? Maybe let's go through the list of Orthodoxy, different Protestantisms, Islam, atheism.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. So let's think about who I think are the very best. There's a few whose names you probably never heard. Doing really good work. Now we both know our near and dear friend, Erica Barracks. Eric Kabar is great.

[Matt Fradd]

Love him.

[William Albrecht]

He's phenomenal. Not only is he great at doing what he does, Matt, he's a great guy.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. He's such a kind fella.

[William Albrecht]

He's a great guy.

[Matt Fradd]

Brilliant. Oh, yeah.

[William Albrecht]

A near and dear friend. I. I'm. I'm privileged to call him friend.

[Matt Fradd]

Good.

[William Albrecht]

A near and different. And I can't go beyond mentioning our friend Sam Shimoun. He's the best against Islam. There's nobody better. The guy is right. Phenomenal, man.

[Matt Fradd]

I had him on back in the day. Really enjoyed my conversation with him. I think this was before he had announced. He was definitely. It was before he announced.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, it was. It was. God bless him and praise the Lord. He's come to Catholicism. Praise God. He's relatively new to it. He even says in the Air he's learning.

[Matt Fradd]

He's someone I see getting attacked a lot online from different sides. Do you know why that is? Is it because he's so good?

[William Albrecht]

I think it's because he's so good. He's really good against Islam. He can memorize the Bible. He can memorize the Quran. The guy is phenomenal. And I really think that he'll go to war for Christ. He will defend what he believes to be the truth. And a lot of the times that's offensive to people, but he's really, really good. Now, there are other names that maybe a lot of people haven't heard of. In fact, Erica Barr would agree with me. Elisha Yossi. He's great. Very, very good in the papacy. Another good friend, Divine Mercy James. He's a really, really good guy. He does a lot of good work. And then my friend Joe Heschmeyer, he's good. He does solid work. Trent Horne does solid work as well. Joe and Trent do very good work against Protestantism. What really does set Elijah Yassi and Erykah Barra apart is they're dealing with Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy as well. And they're doing a really good job. A really, really good job. The beautiful thing is we got a lot of people doing great work here, man. And please forgive me if there are some names of friends that I've forgotten. There's a lot of people doing great, great work out there that are really holy people and that they love the Lord.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, it's interesting. I've been in this long enough to realize that there are different waves. So when I joined Catholic Answers, Protestant Apologetics, was sort of on the decline. And atheistic apologetics, or apologetics. Apologetics against atheists was the new thing. Right. And so I imagine in a time like that, people kind of like forget about the Protestants and try to defend or go after the atheists. But then now it feels like, well, the atheists are in decline and maybe now many of us attempted to forget that. That's even a battle that will need to be fought today and in days to come. You know what I mean by that?

[William Albrecht]

It will. No, there's no doubt. Because I can tell you right now, they're out there, the atheists, and they're publishing books. They're attacking the faith. I will tell you one thing that is good, that has come to the forefront and that is a lot more dealing with Eastern Orthodox apologetics and Oriental Orthodoxy.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Now that's something. Back in the day when I was think Catholic answers.

[William Albrecht]

No, you didn't hear about that.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right?

[Matt Fradd]

We had like two sentences, right. We thought that would suffice.

[William Albrecht]

And now, now, you know, praise the Lord. It's, it's. Now, why don't I say praise the Lord? We get to learn a whole lot more about our faith as we respond to them. We get to learn a whole lot more about church history, about the Bible. What do we have in common? Where do we disagree upon? I'll tell you one thing, man. It has helped me grow in the faith, dialoguing with them more and more. And I know they're not going to want to hear this, but I've become more and more convicted of my Catholic faith. The more and more I dialogue with my Eastern Orthodox friends and my Oriental Orthodox. And I've had debates on hearing pints with Aquinas. In fact, I don't know what we're at right now. The last I checked, 100,000, there was a debate we did in the Immaculate Conception against Father Ramsay. I remain very good friends with Father Ramsay. I've debated him a number of times.

[Matt Fradd]

He seems like a lovely man.

[William Albrecht]

He's wonderful, wonderful. But the more and more that I look into and I study Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, the more I'm convinced that I made the right choice. Because I'll tell you one thing, Matt, one thing people don't know. When I became Catholic, I dabbled around in Eastern Orthodoxy for a full year. It was between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. It took me a year. I did discern, and at the end of the day, I chose Catholicism.

[Matt Fradd]

Now, the reasons you chose Catholicism and rejected Eastern Orthodoxy, are they the same reasons as Today. Or do you. Or do you sometimes oscillate thinking, well, maybe everything's on fire here.

[William Albrecht]

Maybe I should go. They've expanded because back then papacy was a big thing. Of course. Immaculate Conception, that was a big thing. We're divided in other topics, too. Purgatory is another area where they've moved further away from the belief in purgatory that I would argue is the ancient apostolic belief. But there's another one, Matt, that maybe you haven't heard before. A lot of people don't know it. The canon. A lot of them have a different canon. And then that opens up the door to. The door to. Okay, well, what does that even matter? Was the canon ever settled early on? And I will argue that, yeah, there's a point where they agreed with us on the canon. And today it's very difficult finding any of them that agree. Now, what do I mean by that, Matt? I've done a lot of work here. In fact, I've debated Father Ramsey in this point. This does concern me, man. There are a lot of our Eastern friends that have a canon very similar to ours, and maybe there's a book or two extra. I've got no problem with that, even though I don't agree with that. But then there's a lot within Russian Orthodoxy that have full out rejected the Deuterocanon.

[Matt Fradd]

Matt, when? Since when?

[William Albrecht]

I want to say since the last 20 years.

[Matt Fradd]

Not prior to that.

[William Albrecht]

There were rumblings. Prior to that there was a problem. There was a problem in the 17th century when a patriarch embraced Calvinism, but the Church responded and condemned that and restored the Deuterocanon.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow.

[William Albrecht]

Now that's a problem, Matt, because the Deuterocanon has been part of the Bible from the beginning. And I have flat out asked scholars of theirs on the air, what do you consider these books? Readable? So, okay, hold on.

[Matt Fradd]

That's what the Protestant reformers said.

[William Albrecht]

Precisely. Is readable.

[Matt Fradd]

Revolters. Sorry, not reformers.

[William Albrecht]

Right. Revolters is readable is synonymous with canonical. And they've told me no. Well, I've got a big problem with that because the deuterocanonical books, they belong in the Bible, and I'm not going to mention names, but they're apologists online that identify as Eastern Orthodox that will reject them as well. So that's a problem.

[Matt Fradd]

That's what I was going to ask. So does Rocor, for example, is there.

[William Albrecht]

A particular position Rokor will have particular scholars that reject them? In fact, there are Bible societies that reject them, that lower their status. When I say Reject them. I want to be careful. They will believe they're readable, they're valuable, but they are not in the level of Holy Writ like the other books. And that's a big problem.

[Matt Fradd]

And again, just for those at home, this is exactly what happened with the original Protestant Bibles, right? That they were in the book. They were in the Bible, sometimes in an appendix, and then eventually discarded.

[William Albrecht]

No doubt a great point there, Matt, as you bring that up. Luther never removed the so called Apocrypha, Remember faithful, when we're talking about Deuterocanon. Deuterocanon is what our modern day evangelical friends call apocrypha. Luther didn't remove them, but he did make it very clear he didn't believe they were canonical and he did move them from their usual place later in history. They were dropped from Protestant Bibles. My concern is when our Orthodox friends tell us, while these are readable and they're valuable, they can even be called ecclesiastical, we then ask for the clarification and we've done. It is ecclesiastical, tantamount to being canonical the way that we use canonical. Because in the west, canonical means Holy Writ, part of the Bible. And there are Bible societies that say no, and then there are some that say yes. That is a concern. Why is there no unity on that particular part? And that is yet another strike against Eastern Orthodoxy that they lack that unity there. And in Catholicism it's very clear. The Tridentine canon, Trent was very clear. The canon includes those books. And for people that are wondering, deuterocanonical, we mean first, second, Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, all of those books, including Tobit additions to Daniel. And that to me is a big problem, Matt, a big, big problem.

[Matt Fradd]

Now, speaking of Eastern Orthodoxy, there's obviously been several debates that have taken place between Catholics and Orthodox around the question, do we worship the same God?

[William Albrecht]

Right. That has come up a lot. But there really shouldn't be a big issue. There is. The Eastern Orthodox agree with us here on the particular issue. And I believe you're talking about Islam. Is that what you're talking about?

[Matt Fradd]

Yes. Sorry if I didn't say that.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, yeah. Within. Within the world of Islam, do Muslims worship God? The one God? Do they worship the one God? And it has caused a lot of controversy. It caused it for a few months there. There's a big uproar in the online world there for a little while there. And we had our Eastern friends up in arms saying, what are you talking about? How can you guys say that you worship the one God? Now The Church has always been clear. Do we worship the one God? Do Muslims and Christians worship the one God? Historically, and they have said yes. Metaphysically, no. They're not Trinitarians.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Matt Fradd]

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[William Albrecht]

But that statement, Matt, is echoed by our Eastern friends. Their own clergy, their own patriarchs say the very same thing. Then you've got to wonder, Matt, if there are people in the online world who are up in arms about it, are they following their clergy? Are they listening to their clergy? Because they have their patriarchs making these very same statements. And then they're saying, no, it isn't true. And then I flat out asked them, okay, do you not agree with your leaders? And they've told me, no, we don't have to agree with them. Then I've asked them, are they heretical? Some have told me, yes, said, oh, so you're united to a heretic. That's a big problem, Matt.

[Matt Fradd]

Are there you people at that point? And that's certainly not all orthodox, but at that point, if you're willing to say that, then it feels like Protestantism with incense. That is to say kind of what you said earlier, like, I want everything that Catholicism has. I don't like the Pope thing, I don't like the scandal thing, I don't like whatever, but I'll go over here and I'll pick and choose what I want and I'll reject my leaders if they say something, is that fair or not?

[William Albrecht]

It is. Protestodoxy is what I call It. And I want to be very clear, not all of them are like that, but there are many that have gone from having been very anti Catholic, and they have flat out said it was way easier to become Eastern Orthodox. I can continue hating the Pope, some have said, and I can now become part of an apostolic church. I can take the Eucharist, meaning all the while they will tell you, oh, you know, I am now apostolic. It has been very easy for them to make that switch. And that is a concerning thing. It really is.

[Matt Fradd]

Do you see any kind of reconciliation between the Catholics and the Greek Orthodox?

[William Albrecht]

I do. I think there's a whole lot where we agree with one another. And in this online world, where there is in the online world, you would think, Matt, that we are in planet Earth and the Orthodox are so far apart, they're on a wildly lost planet way out there in space. But in the real world, our leaders love one another. Pope Leo has met with their patriarchs, not only the Eastern, but the Oriental, and we have great relations with them. That's the real world. And I applaud that for people watching and thinking, well, you know, hold on, William, I thought you said Catholicism is the fullness. It is the fullness of the truth. But we have great relations with our Eastern friends. And I think reunion is definitely possible. I do.

[Matt Fradd]

We were talking about Catholic apologetics earlier and how different waves come and go. I think one thing that we clearly need to focus on right now is an understanding of the role of the papacy in the Church. I don't mean to refashion it into something that it isn't already, but one of the reasons I think we need to rethink it, re look at it, examine it, is that we live in a day and age where we get communication from Pope Leo whenever he says a thing, immediately here it is. That's not something the Church had to deal with after the First Vatican Council.

[William Albrecht]

Not at all.

[Matt Fradd]

And it seems to me that Catholics, and maybe myself in the past, I hope not, but have too liberally used the word schismatic or, you know, we're trying to sort of separate people without realizing the large tent that Catholicism is. You have to understand that in the right sense. But what do you think about that? How should we view the papacy in this digital age? And I've said this before, so forgive me for boring people, but when I worked at Catholic Answers, the thing we always said was, we're not saying that everything the Pope says is infallible. And then we had Pope Francis and he said a Lot of confusing things and unhelpful things, I would say. And then it felt like many Catholics just went to bat for him at all costs. And if I were a Protestant, I'd be like, well, why do you even need to do that? You just told me that you don't need to do that. And so there's obviously a ton of confusion in the Catholic Church right now. There was a lot of hope about Pope Leo. There's been some things that Pope Leo has done, some appointments he's made that have just caught. It's almost like children who are traumatized and another father comes into the home, and we're just. Maybe we overreact when we sense.

[William Albrecht]

And I can tell. I can sense that on both sides, Matt, with Pope Leo. Now, here's the question. Do you have to go to bat for any. Every little thing Pope Leo says? Absolutely not. And I don't think Pope Leo would even want that. Let me give you an example, Matt. My goodness, I lost count of the amount of videos that were made when. When Pope Leo did an interview not long back. And the interview was talking about traditional marriage and, you know, homosexuality and many other things that are hot topics today. And Pope Leo uttered a few words that seemed lacking clarity. But then later in the interview, he made it very clear that marriage was between a man and a woman, made it very, very clear that that was a church teaching. And I feel that the Internet blew up trying to defend every jot and tittle, as if he had released an encyclical, as if Ineffibilis deus had just been dropped, and you have to look over every comb, over every word. I don't think Pope Leo even wanted that. Pope Leo was giving an interview. Yeah, a casual interview.

[Matt Fradd]

Right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to have begun at least prominently with John Paul ii. Right. Who's writing to journalists and doing interviews. And this isn't something that historically that Catholics have had to deal with. Not at all. I think Catholics are right to be confused, wouldn't you say?

[William Albrecht]

Right. No doubt. I think Catholics are right because there has to be some clarity. People need to realize, okay, well, not every jot and tittle or not every Twitter statement are going to be viewed upon as encyclical or infallible even. And we are living in an Internet age, Matt, where we're going to hear from the Pope multiple times in a week. And that was very different in the past. Very different. Imagine back in the day of a Pope Liberius. I mean, how Often would you hear from a Pope Liberius, or let me. Even later. Even Pope Agatho, Pope Hadrian here. Agatho. Or even later Popes. When we get to the 1900s, you're not hearing from them very often. Today in the digital age, you're going to hear from the Pope a lot, but not only are you going to hear from the Pope a lot, you're going to see the Pope a lot.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, I was just going to say, not only are you going to hear from the Pope a lot, but you're going to hear from 8,000 people who need their YouTube channel to do better than it's currently doing about what the Pope just did.

[William Albrecht]

Absolutely.

[Matt Fradd]

It's funny, I remember being at Catholic Answers when Pope Francis. Francis was elected and then going to my computer in my office and refreshing. And no one was livestreaming back then. Just that short amount of time. The difference in how quickly information is getting to us.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And I feel a lot of the commentaries are for clicks, Matt. I feel a lot of them out there. The one piece of advice that I've offered Catholics, and I offer it to them to this day, Matt, if there are any channels out there and people don't think I'm calling anyone out, I'm not calling anybody out. If there are any channels out there that you think are doing videos just for clicks and they're doing sensationalistic headlines or what have you, and they're not really looking at the statements of the Pope or even examining church teaching. Well, why are you tuning in? Yeah, why are you tuning in? Tune into something that is valuable and tune into something that's not going to darken your faith. That's another thing. But here's another important thing. In the digital age that we live in, we need to understand the role of the Papacy, and we need to realize not every little thing the Pope puts out is going to be something that we need to look at and say, hey, I've got to follow that jot and tittle. What if the Pope puts out a tweet and there are a bunch of typos and it has a theological error? There are people going to go to bat arguing that that has got to be.

[Matt Fradd]

That's the correct spelling now, right? It's always been the correct spelling.

[William Albrecht]

It's wild, Matt. Right. First off, the Pope has admitted himself. A lot of the tweets don't come from him. A lot of the times they don't come from him. I think we need to realize, we need to understand what the role of the Pope is when he's protected in his infallible office. That as well has got to be understood. Papal infallibility has got to be understood. And I think we live in a day and age where there's an unhealthy obsession with everything that comes out of the Pope's mouth, that there are certain people out there that believe every word that comes out of his mouth is infallible.

[Matt Fradd]

So back during the very unfortunate sex abuse scandal, I tried to make it a point to show the friends in my life who weren't Catholic and who were asking me about the scandals that I was angrier than they are. Oh, yeah. And I think that's important. And if the first thing you were doing was trying to go, well, I mean, technically more teachers commit abuse and the Church has deep pocket. If that's the first thing you're doing, I think it doesn't look, not only does it not look good, but you shouldn't be doing it. Not at all. The Church should be held to a higher standard. But I think something similar has to happen, maybe. So I guess here's my question. How do you thread the needle when the Pope does something that, you know, you can look at, engage. This is probably objectively unhelpful at best. I think it's similarly unhelpful to our Protestant brothers and sisters to go to bat for everything.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And I think it actually might show more credibility to say, yeah, I agree with you. I think that was, that was unhelpful.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And I believe that we can have that healthy way of saying, I don't agree with the Pope on that issue. I don't think there's any problem with that at all. That we can say, okay, well, this is clearly not a dogmatic issue. I don't agree with the Pope there, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think people live in a day and age where they think, man, if he doesn't agree with the Pope, he's schismatic. Or they'll toss out terms like, you know, that guy's a rat trap, or hey, that guy doesn't believe in the Catholic faith and it becomes an all out attack. There is a way to disagree with the Pope in a healthy manner without being a nasty person. And I think we've got to really thread that very, very, very key, that important line of distinction. We've got to help have that healthy ability to be able to disagree with the Pope while remaining passionately Catholic. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Matt Fradd]

What are you Working on right now.

[William Albrecht]

Working on multiple books. Multiple books and multiple debates. I'm working on two books on Mary, Perpetual Virginity and the Immaculate Conception. Yeah. Really excited about that. Anytime I get to defend Holy Mother Mary. Very excited about that. And it comes at a very exciting time, as you know very well. A lot of people talking about, oh, hey, hold on. Wait a minute, Matt. And William, is Mary co redemptrix or is she not? So it comes as a good time when, you know, anytime Mary's in the headlines.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, let's talk about that. Definitely. What just came out of the Vatican talking about Mary as co redemptrix. Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

So the Vatican has said that Co redemptrix as a title seems rather unhelpful because it requires a lot of unraveling for people that may not truly understand what is meant. Now, the one thing the Vatican did not do, the Vatican did not condemn the theology behind Mary as co redemptrix. We need to be very clear. But number one, what is the theology behind it? A lot of people have asked me, Matt, what do you mean co redemptrix? Mary's a, you know, she's another redeemer. You know, she redeems and Christ, you know, what is Christ? Just on her level as a redeemer. What co redemptrix means is. It comes from the Latin word co. It means with a female, with the redeemer. It doesn't mean she's another redeemer. It means that she plays a role in salvation history.

[Matt Fradd]

But even the very fact that you had to explain that to our listeners shows why there's concern.

[William Albrecht]

Yes, it does. It does.

[Matt Fradd]

And it is confusing.

[William Albrecht]

It can be confusing. And with that in mind, I've got no issue with what the Vatican has said at all. But then I hear other Catholics saying, okay, William, well, there are a lot of evangelicals that are applauding this move. What do you say? William, what do you and Matt say? What has changed in Mariology? Nothing. Nothing has changed. But then the other question gets asked in the online world, Matt, Leading up to that document, there were. I counted at one time, and I stopped counting. 30 articles on my Facebook page of people announcing there's going to be a fifth Marian dogma. Oh, never in my mind did I ever imagine there would have been a fifth Marian dogma. And I don't think we need one now. I hope people aren't disappointed because a lot of people look at me as the Mary guy because I do a lot of work in Mariology. I don't Think we need another Marian dogma. I think that what is said about Mary, a lot of beautiful, pious titles we have for her method, I think we can find them in all of the dogmas. Now, the teaching behind Marius co redemptrix, I have no problem with it, but a lot of our Protestant friends are confused by it. But let me tell you another thing. A lot of Catholics, too, Matt. A lot of Catholics too. They don't get it. Okay, wait a minute. Well, if our Lord is a redeemer, in the sense of him having died on the cross, that's how he's the Redeemer. Well, how is Mary another Redeemer? And then, of course, we've got to get into the dialogue, explaining what does it mean to call Mary co redemptor? Well, it very clearly just means. It simply means she played a role in salvation history, and she did so at her fiat. Let it be done to me according to thy word. She did do that. She played a role in salvation history. But I completely understand when the Vatican says a lot of people are confused.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Well, I want to go over to our local supporters and throw some questions at you, which you have not seen. So just so people know, I love it. JJ says, in your opinion, was it likely that Jesus may have spent time among the Essenes in his hidden years?

[William Albrecht]

It definitely could be possible. We don't have any early church fathers speak about that, but it definitely could have been possible. They were a group that were prominent at that time. So whether or not he hung out with them or spent some time with them, I would say, yeah, that's possible.

[Matt Fradd]

KT Decker says, if we are in a location where there are no Catholic churches and only Orthodox churches, can we receive communion at their Mass or no? How do we know which Orthodox are in union with the church and which are not?

[William Albrecht]

So very clear answer. None of them are in full communion with the Catholic Church. And with that in mind, people may wonder. Okay, hold on. Matt. William, none of them are in full communion. Is there a partial communion? What do you guys mean by this quasi communion? I'm confused. When we say none of them are in full communion, all we mean is they have valid holy orders. They have real priests. They have apostolic succession. So they do have valid priests. Are we allowed to partake of communion? We are. If there is no Catholic church anywhere nearby, it would be considered a grave situation and we would be able to partake in that manner. Now, the other question that comes in is, will they allow you? Some of them are very opposed to Catholics partaking of communion now, if you are allowed. Let's put the wild scenario out there, Matt. We're in the middle of the desert. There's only one church there. It's Rokor. Only one. There is no Catholic church for thousands of miles, and you've got to make your Sunday obligation. Are you allowed to attend their service and partake of communion? Yes, you are.

[Matt Fradd]

And maybe a distinction needs to be made too, between Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholic churches. Maybe there was a confusion there.

[William Albrecht]

Ah, did they? Oh, my bad. I didn't know they said. Did they say Eastern Orthodox?

[Matt Fradd]

You were correct. They did say that. But when they asked, how do we know which are in union with the church? I wonder if they're confusing Eastern Orthodoxy with Eastern Catholicism.

[William Albrecht]

They could be. Every Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with Rome. All of them. That is a great question, man. I'm so glad that that was even asked because a lot of people tend to ask, okay, they'll say, hey, my family and friends go to an Eastern Catholic Church. What do they believe that I don't believe I go to a Latin rite? Well, they believe everything you believe. They are in communion with Rome. Meaning they believe the Pope is the head of the church. They believe all of the councils that we hold to, they believe they're ecumenical. We do not believe anything differently. What will look different is the liturgy.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Now, you used full communion earlier. Now you're only saying communion. Why are you doing that?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, so when I say they're in communion, I. I mean they're in full communion because they are a Catholic Church. So it is Catholic Church. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, though.

[Matt Fradd]

Elaine says two of my in laws left the Catholic Church and became Orthodox this past Easter. From my understanding, they were reconfirmed or Chrismated. My question is, do the Orthodox deny Catholic sacraments? If not, why confirm them again? What is their teaching on confirmation?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, some of them do. In fact, some of them will even rebaptize. Now, depending which one you encounter. There are certain Russian Orthodox churches that take a very strong stance. They will even believe that our baptismal modes are incorrect. So if you convert to Orthodoxy, they'll rebaptize you. And of course, you know, they don't believe our sacraments are valid. Some of them don't. There are people within Russian Orthodoxy that don't believe any baptism that is without the three modes, meaning triple immersion. Without that, it is not valid. Now, that is not a majority view. That would be a minority view. But you're going to encounter that?

[Matt Fradd]

Philip Z. Asks, many Catholics believe in abundant graces coming from daily Mass and frequent Communion. Is it correct that in many Orthodox churches, the Eucharist, Eucharistic liturgy, is celebrated usually only on Sunday. How would you explain theologically, the Orthodox approach to receive communion less frequently?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, that is definitely true. Now, the case within Eastern Orthodoxy is they have been following that tradition for a very long time. But there are certain areas within the world of Eastern Orthodoxy where they do have Mass much more often. Not only Sundays. There are certain ones within Russia and certain areas where there's only Mass on Sundays, but in America, it's much more frequent. So with that in mind, we would say, well, over there in the Eastern part of the world, they do have Mass less frequently, but they're not going to argue that they do that because it's wrong or that they wouldn't want to have Mass more often. They're following an old tradition in the US you'll find that in a lot of parts of America there is Mass multiple times throughout the week in Eastern Orthodox churches.

[Matt Fradd]

Scott GK says, I'd like to know more about the Lyon and Florence reunifications. How do these impact the argument of papal primacy versus first among equals debate and the schism that continues? Great question.

[William Albrecht]

Florence. I assume he means the Florentine council from the 1500s, 1400s, I believe. So if he's referring to. And that's a phenomenal question. At the Council of Florence, which is an ecumenical council for Catholicism, there were a lot of things up for debate. Meaning, where are they? It was a reunion council, by the way, east and West. The goal was to reunite. Beautiful man. We're going to reunite. Everything's going to be as it should be. As it should be. What is on the table? What do we disagree upon? What came to the table was the filioque was one area where there were differences. The other area was purgatory, and the other area was papal primacy. Do we agree or do we disagree? Funny enough, Matt, one thing that was not on the table for disagreement was the Immaculate Conception. And there were many dialogues about it. At the time. It had not been dogmatized, but it was already believed. Many within the east believed it. At that time, they firmly believed it. Mark of Ephesus believed in the Immaculate Conception. With that in mind, at that failed reunion council, unfortunately, it would later become a failed one, they agreed upon the papal claims. They agreed with papal supremacy. In fact, Mark of Ephesus gives indication that he believed in papal supremacy. Mark of Ephesus is our main guy. That's their main guy, man. They agreed with that. They agreed with the claims of purgatory, the filioque, unfortunately, later it would get rejected. And the one that did not sign upon it, that did agree, even though at one point he agreed, was Mark of Ephesus. He was the one that held out in terms of signing and agreeing. And that would eventually become a failed reunion council. But the beauty of that question is, Matt, that at one point they agreed to all those statements. That was an ecumenical council where they agreed upon everything. Fortunately, later they would pull back upon that.

[Matt Fradd]

Is that because the people revolted when the bishops came back and announced such?

[William Albrecht]

They did. They did. Mark of Ephesus was a big one. Reason why. Was a big reason why. But I feel that if you read the actual documents from Mark of Ephesus, by the way, a very little. Cool, Very cool little thing is on my blog. Thanks to Father Coppice. We translated a homily from Mark of Ephesus that was nowhere available in English before because I wanted to know what on earth happened afterwards. And if you read the document, man, my goodness, Matt. He clearly believed in Purgatory. They believed in Purgatory. It's unfortunate that once they returned, so much fell apart. It's so unfortunate.

[Matt Fradd]

Sean says, do you believe we hold back graces God wants to give the world the longer we prolong the declaration of the fifth Marian dogma. I didn't know this was going to come up. Of Our lady of Co Redemptris and Mediatrix. All graces similar to when we delay the heating Our Lady's messages in apparitions like Fatima?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think that we need to have a fifth Marian dogma. And I hope I don't let people down by saying that because number one, for anybody wondering, do I believe the theology behind Mary is co Redemptrix?

[Matt Fradd]

I do.

[William Albrecht]

Do I believe Mary is Mediatrix? I do. I don't believe we need a fifth Marian dogma. I believe that Mary as co Redemptrix flows from her as Mother of the Church, as Queen of Heaven. And that's the beauty of her intercession as well.

[Matt Fradd]

Nicholas A. Says, I just discovered that the Eastern Orthodox have declared Constantine a saint, whereas the Roman Catholic Church is not. Would you have any insight as to why that is?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. So there are various Orthodox churches that believe that Constantine had a full conversion before his death and they venerate him. There are also some Eastern Catholic churches that believe that as well. Let me shock you another one. There are certain Orientals, I believe Pontius Pilate converted before the end of his life and they venerate him. There are these little tiny tea traditions within these faiths and they venerate certain saints that ordinarily in the Latin Rite Church, we were not aware that they were being venerated.

[Matt Fradd]

We get some really intelligent questions from these people.

[William Albrecht]

Great man. You got great people, man.

[Matt Fradd]

Devin Stewart says, I've heard before that you are a Scotist. What were the main reasons for choosing Scotism over Thomism?

[William Albrecht]

I think that SCOTUS was the greatest Mariologist ever. I think that his love for Holy Mary was phenomenal. But I think the one area where people tend to not realize how wonderful Scotus was was on his Christology. The reason being, we hear about the great blessed done Scotus, we think about Mary, which is great, but he was also a great Christologist. Now in terms, I'm going to be honest, in terms of A greater theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, you know, he's got him there. But Scotus, in my opinion, the greatest Mariologist and I love Holy Mother Mary and I've dedicated my ministry to Scotus.

[Matt Fradd]

Sethi C says, please just tell him debate Brother Peter Diamond. I'll do it just to get his reaction.

[William Albrecht]

He says, oh, I'll do it.

[Matt Fradd]

It's an inside joke because he debated.

[William Albrecht]

Him years ago, many years back and Peter diamond has avoided me ever since then.

[Matt Fradd]

In fact, for those at home, who is Peter diamond and tell us what happened.

[William Albrecht]

Peter diamond is a state of the contest and we debated many moons ago. The final debate we had was on the new Mass and we were going to debate in Vatican II right after that. But Peter diamond pulled out of it and I am open to debating him. In fact, Peter diamond reached out to you, Matt, and said, hey, I want you to host it and I want.

[Matt Fradd]

To debate Peter Diamond. I know you watched the show, so reach out to us. We'll make it happen.

[William Albrecht]

We'll make it happen.

[Matt Fradd]

And why did he pull out of the second debate?

[William Albrecht]

My opinion, I don't think he did very well in that debate on the new Mass. I don't think he did very well and I don't think that. I don't think the topic would have been one where he would have done well in that is what I personally believe.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, I'm not a debater. I'm not good at it. It's not my gift. So I choose not to do it because I Don't want to bring shame to the Holy Mother Church. You are very good, and I'm glad you are doing it. Are there other people you've invited to debate that aren't getting back to you? And of course, I want to point out not every. You know, just because someone invites somebody else to Bay doesn't mean that person has a right to be responded to.

[William Albrecht]

No doubt.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And. And in all charity, people that have declined debating, many of them have told me I'm not a debater.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And in old charity, one person that I reached out to, in fact, I reached out to. To get him to debate on pints. This was years back. I was. In fact, I was going to try and get him and then call you up. It was Mike Winger.

[Matt Fradd]

Oh, Mike.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

But Mike was very charitable. I want to tell you, I got nothing bad to say about Mike. Mike replied to me, told me, william, I'm not a debater. I don't debate. But there are other people that I've reached out to. In fact, I'm gonna call him out on the show right now because he has done multiple shows about you.

[Matt Fradd]

Ah, who's that?

[William Albrecht]

James White. James White has done many shows rebutting you and challenging you to debate him.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Did you see my response?

[William Albrecht]

I did not.

[Matt Fradd]

I said, no, thank you. But he knows. He was really honored because, you know, like, he's. I used to watch his debates all the time, and I saw Patrick Madrid wipe the floor with him. I saw Jimmy Akin absolutely wipe the floor with him.

[William Albrecht]

I'm surprised they didn't put a warrant out for Jimmy after that.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. So my point was no. The reason I wouldn't debate James Wyatt is cause I'm not a good debater and James would beat me. So good for you, James. However, I will say every pre. Every debate I've looked at on YouTube, the comments are filled with. James White brought me to Catholicism, so I encourage him to keep debating Catholics.

[William Albrecht]

Definitely.

[Matt Fradd]

Just not me.

[William Albrecht]

And to be very clear, the one thing James White said over and over. It's a recent video he came out with. He barely came out with a video challenging you over and over. He knows you don't debate.

[Matt Fradd]

I haven't even watched the video. What did he say?

[William Albrecht]

Claiming that he's been challenging you for the longest time and you're not responding.

[Matt Fradd]

So I just saw a tweet and that's what I responded to in a video.

[William Albrecht]

Oh, yeah. He's been video after video.

[Matt Fradd]

Really?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And he puts up video clips of shows you've Done. And I'm thinking I'm honored he's got to know that you don't debate.

[Matt Fradd]

But I'm honored he does know that.

[William Albrecht]

I've debated for you many times and he does know that I do debate.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And one thing that he has said many times over is people aren't willing to debate the Marian dogmas.

[Matt Fradd]

Will you do it?

[William Albrecht]

I'm willing to debate any James White.

[Matt Fradd]

I know. You watch the show. Here it is right now. You've got a very charitable, intelligent Catholic. Take him. Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

Any and all bodily assumption, perpetual virginity, immaculate conception.

[Matt Fradd]

I'll debate them all with charity. If people watch James White and follow him, please respectfully let him know that that offer. I'll agree to it right now. We will absolutely do it in a time that's agreeable to him and to William. And of course, James doesn't have to respond if he doesn't want to. And I'm not asking everybody to go hound his comment section. Please don't do that. I find that obnoxious.

[William Albrecht]

Don't flood it.

[Matt Fradd]

No, don't do that. But, yeah, respectfully, tell him about this conversation, because I think that would be very enlightening to both Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians.

[William Albrecht]

Definitely. Definitely.

[Matt Fradd]

Has he responded to say no?

[William Albrecht]

He has responded to say no. He has. But he definitely wants to debate you. Who doesn't debate. But the one thing that he keeps requesting are debates on Mary. Well, I'm ready.

[Matt Fradd]

You're ready? Let's do it. Well, thank you. Joe Ward says if reunification were to happen, God willing, then would we adopt the orthodox canon?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. What canon is what? I'd ask him which one. That has got to be the one. We've got to ask. Does he mean the truncated one or does he mean the one with. With more books? That. That's the one thing we gotta ask. If it comes to the truncated one, there's no way. But if it comes to the canon, and I think I know what he means, that does have extra books, I think there'd be a middle ground to where within Catholicism, we would not say they are canonical equal to the other books, but they're ecclesiastical, meaning they're valuable to be read and we can utilize them. But in terms of the canon being open, the canon is closed. That is one thing I got to say on the air. The canon is closed. Trent was very clear about that.

[Matt Fradd]

That's interesting. So you wouldn't. We don't have to name names, but you would take issue with Catholic apologists who would say that the Church has declared what is the word of God? But it hasn't made a definitive statement about those books that aren't.

[William Albrecht]

That's. Well, yes and no. So, and I'm going directly to the Council of Trent. And at the Council of Trent, the church was very clear even before that, because Trent was merely reiterating what Florence had already done. And believe it or not, Florence was merely reiterating what Agatha had done. People don't even realize that, meaning laying out what was canonical. What Trent did do was clearly said, these are canonical. The canons closed and Trent did point to which certain books that were apocryphal, they were called apocryphal, meaning they're to be rejected. But there are other certain books that Trent did not comment about that is important to point out. Meaning, well, what about those other books that weren't commented about? Can they be used in a valuable, you know, edifying manner? I believe so, Matt. I believe so.

[Matt Fradd]

But you don't think that they can be declared.

[William Albrecht]

Never could they be declared canonical. And I would be willing to debate that.

[Matt Fradd]

Hey, yeah. Tell me who the black Hebrew Israelites are, because I keep hearing about them, but if I'm honest with you, I suspect they're black and maybe Hebrew. I don't know.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, well, they're definitely not Hebrew or Israelites at all. It's a movement gaining a lot of traction. Met a lot of people converting to the movement as well. Now they're event very anti Christian movement. I will tell you this. They believe that they are truly the chosen people of God. They are the chosen ones of God. They believe and they deny all kinds of biblical teachings like they deny the virgin birth.

[Matt Fradd]

What's their origin? You may have been able to get into that about to.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, well, their origin really comes from the early 1900s, but the current movement, there are so many different splintering groups that it's very difficult to really pinpoint when the current iterations of the group really began. But as far as the real theology behind them. Well, a lot of the theology behind them comes from ancient heresies. But the black Hebrew Israelite movement itself in the 1900s pretty much began to get off the ground. And it's a very anti Christian movement that denies the Trinity, denies, of course Christ is almighty God, denies the virgin birth, denies a lot of key doctrines of our faith. And if you deny the virgin birth, well, I gotta be honest, you're not Christian. They believe that they are the true followers of Christ that early on their beliefs were suppressed. Then when you ask, well, where's the evidence of that early on? Well, you're not going to find it in the early church fathers because the church fathers, many of them, they believe killed their people. Well, where is the evidence of the church fathers having done that? Well, it's nowhere there, but they believe it happened. But they believe many radical things. It's a movement that is gaining a lot of traction and I've got to say it's problematic, man. It really is. And as Catholics, as Christians, we've got to be very well aware of what they believe and we need to be able to deal with it.

[Matt Fradd]

What's the indication that they're growing in popularity?

[William Albrecht]

There are a lot of centers of theirs in Texas now, people beginning to follow that movement around America. There are plenty of them in New York, I'll tell you that. A great amount of them.

[Matt Fradd]

So in addition to denying the virgin birth, what other false things do they teach?

[William Albrecht]

They'll deny the writings of St. Paul, I'll tell you that. So they're pretty much what for?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

What's their rationale?

[William Albrecht]

They believe that St. Paul deviated from the teachings of Christ. So many of them doubt his writings. They deny his writings depending what group you encounter. Some do believe the whole Bible to be canonical.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[William Albrecht]

Some deny the writings of Paul. They are all over the map. But they are a radical movement that are gaining quite a bit of followers in Texas. They're gaining plenty more people that have followed them. And in the online world they are making a lot of noise in terms of followers as well. They've got big channels, they've got big sponsors, they're even appearing on big time radio shows. They're being given platforms on big time radio shows, which is very concerning.

[Matt Fradd]

Forgive my ignorance, but they're black.

[William Albrecht]

Yes.

[Matt Fradd]

Is that a big, Is that a thing? Is that the basic part? You have to be black to be part of this?

[William Albrecht]

Yes. The basic thing is you don't have to be black, but your leader will be somebody black is their theology and at the very heart of it, it is racist.

[Matt Fradd]

What's the theological justification for the racism in the black leadership only?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, well, they believe that Christ is black. They believe that the true followers were black and they believe that if you get to heaven and you're not black, well, I mean, you can get to heaven, but you're going to be one of their servants in heaven. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. And well, even before you get to heaven, you'd be one of their servants here on earth.

[Matt Fradd]

Ah, so there's full on racism.

[William Albrecht]

It's full on Racism.

[Matt Fradd]

So it'd fit in really well with the left, presumably right now.

[William Albrecht]

Very well.

[Matt Fradd]

So is that where the growth is taking place?

[William Albrecht]

That's massively where the growth is taking place. And if you ask them, and I have flat out asked many of their leaders this, how can you condone that racism? And their response is no, well, you all are the real races. That is why we can condone it. Because really, you all are the real racists and we are the superior race. And because you are trying to hold us back, it is condoned.

[Matt Fradd]

And you've done a debate recently, one of these.

[William Albrecht]

I did a debate with one of their main leaders, goes by the name of Tsariak. I did debate him and we're planning another debate.

[Matt Fradd]

How did it go?

[William Albrecht]

I think it went very well to the point where he was not very happy at the result. By the all glory to God, they're very aggressive, maybe overly aggressive.

[Matt Fradd]

Have they always been like that? I wonder, has the Internet made them such.

[William Albrecht]

Maybe the Internet played a little bit of a role there, but they're quite aggressive to the point where they. They'll hurl insults at you during the debate. Thank the good Lord. It went. It went very well. Not so well for Tsariak, though.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm looking here. Core beliefs. Black Hebrew Israelites assert that black people are the true inheritors of Israel and have been suffering under urgent gentile dominion in the United States. Some groups claim that the Israeli government is controlled by a Jewish conspiracy and that modern day Israelis are not the true descendants. Okay. Fun.

[William Albrecht]

A lot of fun, right?

[Matt Fradd]

It's great being a Catholic apologist, huh?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah, no doubt. You run. And I'll be honest with you, Matt, when I ran into this group, I didn't think anything of it.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

I said, wait, you know, a little, tiny little group. Why am I gonna know? Waste my time. But I. I told the person trying to set the debate up, I'll do anything to. To give glory to God.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And when the person told me, go look at the movement and the growth, I said, well, my goodness, you know, they got a lot of people that follow them. So I said, well, I thought a debate was worthy enough to do. And it was a lot of fun. It was probably one of the few debates that I've ever done. Or after the debate, let me tell you this, Matt. And the. And the moderator says it on the air after the debate. The moderator says, I am never moderating in another debate like that again.

[Matt Fradd]

And why?

[William Albrecht]

The behavior of the black Hebrew Israelite, the behavior during the Debate.

[Matt Fradd]

He was a muppet, was he?

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. Sort of.

[Matt Fradd]

Talking over you.

[William Albrecht]

Yeah. Kind of yelling over me. Talking over me.

[Matt Fradd]

And always a great way to make, make it seem that you, the logical case is on your side when you start yelling.

[William Albrecht]

There's one point during the cross examination where he's cross examining me.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And he makes a bold statement on the early church fathers. And I said, well, hold on, you read part of the quote, we're going to read the rest of it. And he flat out told me, no, say, wait a minute, this is cross examination, not time for you to pontificate.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[William Albrecht]

And he responded by calling me an expletive. And I said, cross examination means I get to reply. And for about 10 minutes he fought not allowing me to reply, said, wait a minute. If we're debating and you're cross examining.

[Matt Fradd]

Right. It's not another opening statement that you're giving. It's a cross examination.

[William Albrecht]

You don't get a closed rebuttal. You're cross examining me. I'm going to reply and I'm going to read it. And I told the moderator, moderator, we'll be here to nighttime if you want. I'm going to be here till the evening if I need to be. But I'm going to respond to what he said because he only read part of the text and he fought it and fought it and wouldn't allow me. At one point I told him, what are you afraid of? And clearly, because the rest of the text prove the virgin birth.

[Matt Fradd]

That is why God bless him. Where can people thank you for the by the way for coming. I, I travel now occasionally and I do not like it. So I know it's a sacrifice. Maybe it's not as much for you as it is for me. I just, I don't know if it's the introversion or just whatever, man, but it's tough. But thank you very much for coming out. It means a lot. Thank you. Where can people learn more about you? Where can they follow your stuff? Your new books coming out?

[William Albrecht]

I got new books coming out. I think people are gonna love them. They can find me at www.patristicpillars.com. let me give them an easier one. Www.earlychurchfathers.com take you to the exact same place. And I'll tell you, you're gonna find a lot of Mariology there and a lot of trinitarian studies as well. I think people will really, really love it.

[Matt Fradd]

All right. Thanks, William.

[William Albrecht]

Thank you for having me, brother.