Pints With Aquinas Ep. 517 – Charismatic Renewal, Traditional Liturgy, and Praying in the Wilderness

Guest: Fr. Mark Goring | Host: Matt Fradd
Date: March 26, 2025

Overview

In this wide-ranging, candid conversation, Matt Fradd and Fr. Mark Goring discuss the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the resurgence of traditional liturgy, authentic evangelization, and the spiritual necessity of solitude—especially for men in today’s culture. Drawing from personal stories, Church history, and their own ministries, they explore tensions between tradition and innovation, challenge cultural inertia, and share practical approaches to deepening one’s relationship with Christ.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal: What It Is and Isn’t

[00:51, 15:42, 17:38]

• Respect for Charisms: Openness to the charisms is “not optional” for Catholics; it’s part of Scripture and tradition (Fr. Mark, [00:51], [17:46]).
  • Quote:
    “To be fully Catholic must include openness to the charism of the Holy Spirit, because that’s in scripture and it’s in our tradition... You can’t just dismiss part of what we see clearly in tradition of the church.” – Fr. Mark [00:51]
• Misconceptions: Both "charismatic" and "traditionalist" labels carry baggage and misunderstanding: charismatics are stereotyped as "looney" or “babbling in tongues,” trads as “angry” or “against the Church” ([01:08], [15:42]).
• The Legacy of Fr. Bob Bedard: The founder of Companions of the Cross modeled how to be both deeply charismatic and faithfully orthodox, Eucharistic, and loyal to the Magisterium ([05:40]).
  • Emphasized the transformative power of "baptism in the Holy Spirit," leading to a new thirst for prayer.
  • Quote:
    “He thought it was up to the priest to run the church... his big discovery was—the Lord wants to run the church.” – Fr. Mark [05:40]
• Charismatic 'Spectrum': There's a wide range within charismatic circles, from "charismaniacs" to sober, sensible practitioners ([17:46]).

2. Power, Prayer, and Church Renewal

[19:59, 21:33, 22:42]

• Healing and Miracles: Firsthand experiences of healings—especially in the African and Latino Churches—are presented as normative signs of the Spirit in Catholic life.
  • Quote:
    “When you see that, you kind of, you say, wait a minute. That’s how it’s supposed to be. A man of God is supposed to be working in the authority and the power of the Holy Spirit.” – Fr. Mark [20:00]
• Testimonies: Fr. Mark recounts stories of healings at the parish level (a child beginning to speak for the first time after prayer [23:42]).
  • Quote:
    “The mother, she didn’t thank me. She didn’t thank the Lord. She grabs her son, holds him and hugging with, you know, with. With tears.” – Fr. Mark [23:46]

3. Tension and Synergy: Charismatic Renewal & Tradition

[26:41, 31:19, 33:00, 34:09, 38:38]

• Living Christianity: Danger of reducing faith to a moral “syllogism”; both the charismatic approach and traditional reverence are means of genuinely encountering the living Christ ([26:41]).
  • Quote:
    “It’s also the true, true that the good Lord Jesus is somehow inside of me. I don’t even know what that means. And yet I believe it and I trust it. And that he’s on the move, that he’s working in my life.” – Matt [26:41]
• Evangelization Zeal: Catholics must not shy away from “holy foolishness” in sharing Christ, but avoid making people feel “like projects” ([32:11], [32:22]).
• Traditional Renaissance: Growing hunger among young Catholics for “rock solid foundation,” clarity, and reverent liturgy; “experimentation” is wearing thin, especially abuses in the “spirit of Vatican II” ([34:09], [36:15]).
  • Quote:
    “I think the days of your faithful Catholics tolerating silly stuff are over... things like, you know, reverence at Mass, receiving the Holy Eucharist in a, you know, reverent way, you know, oftentimes kneeling and on the tongue and all that.” – Fr. Mark [50:07]

4. Culture, Liturgy, and Diversity

[40:01, 41:11, 42:18, 44:27]

• Cultural Expression: Fr. Mark describes liturgy in Africa: “orthodox, biblical, reverent... and they dance and they sing.” Western discomfort with exuberant worship is discussed, contrasted with its appropriateness in certain cultural contexts ([40:01], [41:11]).
• Unity & Diversity: The Church’s universality allows authentic cultural expression, but should not “artificially implement” uniformity nor tolerate innovations that “t-bone tradition” ([42:18], [44:27]).

5. The Realities of Parish Life and Music in Liturgy

[57:11, 58:17, 59:07, 63:06, 64:45]

• Blending Musical Styles: Debate about fitting contemporary worship music with Gregorian chant, with Matt finding such mixtures “violent”—reflecting larger debates in parish realities ([57:11]–[59:07]).
• Pastoral Realism: Priests “work with what they’ve got”; excellence in liturgy is ideal but parish life often depends on available resources and volunteers ([59:10]).
  • Quote:
    “The Holy Spirit is more than glad to work with whatever person will take whatever five loaves and two fish they have and lead some kind of worship.” – Fr. Mark [59:10]

6. Faithful Tensions: Church Crisis, Speaking Out, and Scandal

[65:58–79:03]

• Speaking Out in Crisis: Fr. Mark shares about a period where he spoke forcefully against clergy abuse and lack of accountability, inspired by Mother Angelica’s example: “A shepherd fights wolves” ([65:58]).
• Defending the Church: Many faithful, including priests, deeply appreciated his candor.
  • Quote:
    “To me, a shepherd fights wolves. A shepherd who just stands back and watch wolves ravage the sheep is not a true shepherd. He’s a hireling.” – Fr. Mark [65:58]
• Staying Amid Scandal: The Church is always run by “broken humans”; there have always been scandals, but in the sacraments, “where else should we go?” (John 6:68) ([76:19]).
• Evangelization Fruit: Many are drawn to the Church precisely because of those who “fight for her from within”; the growth of Catholic media is enabling conversions ([79:03]).

7. Formation and Authentic Manhood: Wilderness, Solitude, and Challenge

[87:40–133:10]

• Unplugging and the Wilderness Challenge:
  • Fr. Mark issues a call for men, especially young men, to spend 72 hours (three days) alone in the wilderness without technology, echoing Jesus, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers ([87:40–93:46]).
  • Quote:
    “You can’t be glued to your social media all the time... getting out into nature and just doing real stuff is a real, you know, remedy.” – Fr. Mark [23:23]
• Spiritual Purpose & Rhythm: The practice of the pustinia—24 hours in a cabin with Scripture, or longer wilderness solitude (“in his zone”)—is deeply rooted in the monastic tradition and is vital for forming “real men of God” ([93:46–121:10]).
  • Importance of work, prayerful rhythm, fasting (but not to the point of unpreparedness!), and learning to be at peace in silence.
  • Quote:
    “If you keep the rhythm, the rhythm will keep you.” – Desert Fathers (paraphrased by Fr. Mark) [117:03]
• Practical Tips: Start simply, ask for help from experienced outdoorsmen, and adapt to your context. Emphasize that consistent yearly or semi-yearly detachment is transformative ([101:11]).

8. Marian Devotion, Warnings, and Spiritual Reading

[135:30–156:56]

• Importance of Marian Apparitions: Fr. Mark discusses Our Lady of Kibeho and the need to heed calls to repentance, prayer, and the rosary before disaster strikes ([135:30–143:59]).
• Rosary in Fr. Mark’s Life: Lifelong practice, peace, and family unity attributed in part to family rosary. Encourages all to “pray imperfectly but calmly”.
  • Quote:
    “For me, I just, when I read these..., Our Lady wants us to pray the Rosary. Fine, done. I’ll do it.” – Fr. Mark [144:06]
• Spiritual Reading: Advocates for regular spiritual reading; his own conversion began with reading the life of St. Joseph Cupertino. Runs a School of Reading, mailing out significant spiritual books globally ([151:04]).

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

On Charismatic and Traditional Liturgy

• "[Father Bob] really thought... it was up to the priest to run the church. And then his big discovery was, well, no, no, the Lord wants to run the church, you know, and we need to see what he's doing and let him do his work." – Fr. Mark [05:40]

• “There’s a wide spectrum... Some who are ‘charismaniacs’, some who are deeply Eucharistic and loyal to the Magisterium. You can be charismatic and still be thoroughly Catholic.” – Fr. Mark [17:46]

• “I think the days of your faithful Catholics tolerating silly stuff are over.” – Fr. Mark [50:07]

On Evangelization and Courage

• “A shepherd fights wolves. A shepherd who just stands back and watch wolves ravage the sheep is not a true shepherd. He’s a hireling.” – Fr. Mark [65:58]

• “My response, where else shall we go? ... In the church we have the Holy Eucharist.” – Fr. Mark [76:19]

On Men & Solitude

• “Not only did Jesus do 40 days, but it says a number of times Jesus went off to a deserted place and there he prayed... I have a great love for the desert fathers, you know, and I have a great love for the outdoors.” – Fr. Mark [23:23], [87:43]

• “There is something about going to the river, getting some water, putting it over a fire, boiling it so you can make a cup of tea... you just feel like I was made to do this.” – Fr. Mark [93:54]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |---------|------------| | What is the Charismatic Renewal? | [00:51–05:40], [15:42], [17:46] | | The Fr. Bob Bedard Story & Impact | [05:40–14:06] | | Tensions: Charismatic vs. Trad Stereotypes | [15:42–16:28], [34:09–38:38] | | Authentic Catholic Witness & Evangelization | [26:41–32:22] | | Liturgy, Music, and Parish Realities | [33:00–38:38], [57:11–59:07], [63:06–65:12] | | Fr. Mark on Speaking Out, Scandal | [65:58–79:03] | | Social Media & Spiritual Life | [79:03–87:40] | | Wilderness, Solitude, and Formation | [87:40–133:10] | | Marian Warnings, Apparitions, and the Rosary | [135:30–151:02] | | Spiritual Reading & School of Reading | [151:04–156:56] | | Q&A (Lightning Round) | [158:27–180:58] |

Audience Q&A Highlights

Fiducia supplicans and Blessing Same-Sex Couples
Fr. Mark’s nuanced take: The document “threaded the needle”—affirmed pastoral care for those in irregular situations but made clear that blessing a sinful relationship itself is not permitted ([162:52, 167:53]).

Celibacy and Loneliness
“Yes, it’s a challenge... Over the years as a priest, it gets easier, but the key is staying close to the Lord.” – Fr. Mark [173:52]

Canadian Culture and Woke Trends
Fr. Mark (and Matt) express relief at “the healing balm” of recent sociopolitical shifts away from extreme ‘woke’ ideologies ([178:08]).

Final Takeaways

• Openness to the Holy Spirit and fidelity to Catholic tradition need not be in tension but can enrich each other when lived in humility and obedience.
• True renewal comes from personal holiness—especially prayer, sacramental life, and honest, often uncomfortable, solitude.
• Catholics are challenged to be courageous, rooted in prayer and tradition, and not to capitulate to cultural trends or sensational labels.
• The family rosary, spiritual reading, and a little bit of “holy foolishness” are practical anchors for living faith in troubled times.
• Encouragement for men: Detach, unplug, spend time in the wilderness as Christ and the saints did—the soul needs it.

Links Mentioned:

• Companions of the Cross
• Fr. Mark Goring’s YouTube Channel
• School of Reading

For more: pintswithaquinas.com
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