Charismatic Renewal, Traditional Liturgy, and Praying in the Wilderness (Fr. Mark Goring) | Ep. 517

Summary

Pints With Aquinas Ep. 517 – Charismatic Renewal, Traditional Liturgy, and Praying in the Wilderness

Guest: Fr. Mark Goring | Host: Matt Fradd
Date: March 26, 2025

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Overview

In this wide-ranging, candid conversation, Matt Fradd and Fr. Mark Goring discuss the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the resurgence of traditional liturgy, authentic evangelization, and the spiritual necessity of solitude—especially for men in today’s culture. Drawing from personal stories, Church history, and their own ministries, they explore tensions between tradition and innovation, challenge cultural inertia, and share practical approaches to deepening one’s relationship with Christ.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal: What It Is and Isn’t

[00:51, 15:42, 17:38]

• Respect for Charisms: Openness to the charisms is “not optional” for Catholics; it’s part of Scripture and tradition (Fr. Mark, [00:51], [17:46]).
  • Quote:
    “To be fully Catholic must include openness to the charism of the Holy Spirit, because that’s in scripture and it’s in our tradition... You can’t just dismiss part of what we see clearly in tradition of the church.” – Fr. Mark [00:51]
• Misconceptions: Both "charismatic" and "traditionalist" labels carry baggage and misunderstanding: charismatics are stereotyped as "looney" or “babbling in tongues,” trads as “angry” or “against the Church” ([01:08], [15:42]).
• The Legacy of Fr. Bob Bedard: The founder of Companions of the Cross modeled how to be both deeply charismatic and faithfully orthodox, Eucharistic, and loyal to the Magisterium ([05:40]).
  • Emphasized the transformative power of "baptism in the Holy Spirit," leading to a new thirst for prayer.
  • Quote:
    “He thought it was up to the priest to run the church... his big discovery was—the Lord wants to run the church.” – Fr. Mark [05:40]
• Charismatic 'Spectrum': There's a wide range within charismatic circles, from "charismaniacs" to sober, sensible practitioners ([17:46]).

2. Power, Prayer, and Church Renewal

[19:59, 21:33, 22:42]

• Healing and Miracles: Firsthand experiences of healings—especially in the African and Latino Churches—are presented as normative signs of the Spirit in Catholic life.
  • Quote:
    “When you see that, you kind of, you say, wait a minute. That’s how it’s supposed to be. A man of God is supposed to be working in the authority and the power of the Holy Spirit.” – Fr. Mark [20:00]
• Testimonies: Fr. Mark recounts stories of healings at the parish level (a child beginning to speak for the first time after prayer [23:42]).
  • Quote:
    “The mother, she didn’t thank me. She didn’t thank the Lord. She grabs her son, holds him and hugging with, you know, with. With tears.” – Fr. Mark [23:46]

3. Tension and Synergy: Charismatic Renewal & Tradition

[26:41, 31:19, 33:00, 34:09, 38:38]

• Living Christianity: Danger of reducing faith to a moral “syllogism”; both the charismatic approach and traditional reverence are means of genuinely encountering the living Christ ([26:41]).
  • Quote:
    “It’s also the true, true that the good Lord Jesus is somehow inside of me. I don’t even know what that means. And yet I believe it and I trust it. And that he’s on the move, that he’s working in my life.” – Matt [26:41]
• Evangelization Zeal: Catholics must not shy away from “holy foolishness” in sharing Christ, but avoid making people feel “like projects” ([32:11], [32:22]).
• Traditional Renaissance: Growing hunger among young Catholics for “rock solid foundation,” clarity, and reverent liturgy; “experimentation” is wearing thin, especially abuses in the “spirit of Vatican II” ([34:09], [36:15]).
  • Quote:
    “I think the days of your faithful Catholics tolerating silly stuff are over... things like, you know, reverence at Mass, receiving the Holy Eucharist in a, you know, reverent way, you know, oftentimes kneeling and on the tongue and all that.” – Fr. Mark [50:07]

4. Culture, Liturgy, and Diversity

[40:01, 41:11, 42:18, 44:27]

• Cultural Expression: Fr. Mark describes liturgy in Africa: “orthodox, biblical, reverent... and they dance and they sing.” Western discomfort with exuberant worship is discussed, contrasted with its appropriateness in certain cultural contexts ([40:01], [41:11]).
• Unity & Diversity: The Church’s universality allows authentic cultural expression, but should not “artificially implement” uniformity nor tolerate innovations that “t-bone tradition” ([42:18], [44:27]).

5. The Realities of Parish Life and Music in Liturgy

[57:11, 58:17, 59:07, 63:06, 64:45]

• Blending Musical Styles: Debate about fitting contemporary worship music with Gregorian chant, with Matt finding such mixtures “violent”—reflecting larger debates in parish realities ([57:11]–[59:07]).
• Pastoral Realism: Priests “work with what they’ve got”; excellence in liturgy is ideal but parish life often depends on available resources and volunteers ([59:10]).
  • Quote:
    “The Holy Spirit is more than glad to work with whatever person will take whatever five loaves and two fish they have and lead some kind of worship.” – Fr. Mark [59:10]

6. Faithful Tensions: Church Crisis, Speaking Out, and Scandal

[65:58–79:03]

• Speaking Out in Crisis: Fr. Mark shares about a period where he spoke forcefully against clergy abuse and lack of accountability, inspired by Mother Angelica’s example: “A shepherd fights wolves” ([65:58]).
• Defending the Church: Many faithful, including priests, deeply appreciated his candor.
  • Quote:
    “To me, a shepherd fights wolves. A shepherd who just stands back and watch wolves ravage the sheep is not a true shepherd. He’s a hireling.” – Fr. Mark [65:58]
• Staying Amid Scandal: The Church is always run by “broken humans”; there have always been scandals, but in the sacraments, “where else should we go?” (John 6:68) ([76:19]).
• Evangelization Fruit: Many are drawn to the Church precisely because of those who “fight for her from within”; the growth of Catholic media is enabling conversions ([79:03]).

7. Formation and Authentic Manhood: Wilderness, Solitude, and Challenge

[87:40–133:10]

• Unplugging and the Wilderness Challenge:
  • Fr. Mark issues a call for men, especially young men, to spend 72 hours (three days) alone in the wilderness without technology, echoing Jesus, St. John the Baptist, and the Desert Fathers ([87:40–93:46]).
  • Quote:
    “You can’t be glued to your social media all the time... getting out into nature and just doing real stuff is a real, you know, remedy.” – Fr. Mark [23:23]
• Spiritual Purpose & Rhythm: The practice of the pustinia—24 hours in a cabin with Scripture, or longer wilderness solitude (“in his zone”)—is deeply rooted in the monastic tradition and is vital for forming “real men of God” ([93:46–121:10]).
  • Importance of work, prayerful rhythm, fasting (but not to the point of unpreparedness!), and learning to be at peace in silence.
  • Quote:
    “If you keep the rhythm, the rhythm will keep you.” – Desert Fathers (paraphrased by Fr. Mark) [117:03]
• Practical Tips: Start simply, ask for help from experienced outdoorsmen, and adapt to your context. Emphasize that consistent yearly or semi-yearly detachment is transformative ([101:11]).

8. Marian Devotion, Warnings, and Spiritual Reading

[135:30–156:56]

• Importance of Marian Apparitions: Fr. Mark discusses Our Lady of Kibeho and the need to heed calls to repentance, prayer, and the rosary before disaster strikes ([135:30–143:59]).
• Rosary in Fr. Mark’s Life: Lifelong practice, peace, and family unity attributed in part to family rosary. Encourages all to “pray imperfectly but calmly”.
  • Quote:
    “For me, I just, when I read these..., Our Lady wants us to pray the Rosary. Fine, done. I’ll do it.” – Fr. Mark [144:06]
• Spiritual Reading: Advocates for regular spiritual reading; his own conversion began with reading the life of St. Joseph Cupertino. Runs a School of Reading, mailing out significant spiritual books globally ([151:04]).

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

On Charismatic and Traditional Liturgy

• "[Father Bob] really thought... it was up to the priest to run the church. And then his big discovery was, well, no, no, the Lord wants to run the church, you know, and we need to see what he's doing and let him do his work." – Fr. Mark [05:40]

• “There’s a wide spectrum... Some who are ‘charismaniacs’, some who are deeply Eucharistic and loyal to the Magisterium. You can be charismatic and still be thoroughly Catholic.” – Fr. Mark [17:46]

• “I think the days of your faithful Catholics tolerating silly stuff are over.” – Fr. Mark [50:07]

On Evangelization and Courage

• “A shepherd fights wolves. A shepherd who just stands back and watch wolves ravage the sheep is not a true shepherd. He’s a hireling.” – Fr. Mark [65:58]

• “My response, where else shall we go? ... In the church we have the Holy Eucharist.” – Fr. Mark [76:19]

On Men & Solitude

• “Not only did Jesus do 40 days, but it says a number of times Jesus went off to a deserted place and there he prayed... I have a great love for the desert fathers, you know, and I have a great love for the outdoors.” – Fr. Mark [23:23], [87:43]

• “There is something about going to the river, getting some water, putting it over a fire, boiling it so you can make a cup of tea... you just feel like I was made to do this.” – Fr. Mark [93:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |---------|------------| | What is the Charismatic Renewal? | [00:51–05:40], [15:42], [17:46] | | The Fr. Bob Bedard Story & Impact | [05:40–14:06] | | Tensions: Charismatic vs. Trad Stereotypes | [15:42–16:28], [34:09–38:38] | | Authentic Catholic Witness & Evangelization | [26:41–32:22] | | Liturgy, Music, and Parish Realities | [33:00–38:38], [57:11–59:07], [63:06–65:12] | | Fr. Mark on Speaking Out, Scandal | [65:58–79:03] | | Social Media & Spiritual Life | [79:03–87:40] | | Wilderness, Solitude, and Formation | [87:40–133:10] | | Marian Warnings, Apparitions, and the Rosary | [135:30–151:02] | | Spiritual Reading & School of Reading | [151:04–156:56] | | Q&A (Lightning Round) | [158:27–180:58] |

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Audience Q&A Highlights

Fiducia supplicans and Blessing Same-Sex Couples
Fr. Mark’s nuanced take: The document “threaded the needle”—affirmed pastoral care for those in irregular situations but made clear that blessing a sinful relationship itself is not permitted ([162:52, 167:53]).

Celibacy and Loneliness
“Yes, it’s a challenge... Over the years as a priest, it gets easier, but the key is staying close to the Lord.” – Fr. Mark [173:52]

Canadian Culture and Woke Trends
Fr. Mark (and Matt) express relief at “the healing balm” of recent sociopolitical shifts away from extreme ‘woke’ ideologies ([178:08]).

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Final Takeaways

• Openness to the Holy Spirit and fidelity to Catholic tradition need not be in tension but can enrich each other when lived in humility and obedience.
• True renewal comes from personal holiness—especially prayer, sacramental life, and honest, often uncomfortable, solitude.
• Catholics are challenged to be courageous, rooted in prayer and tradition, and not to capitulate to cultural trends or sensational labels.
• The family rosary, spiritual reading, and a little bit of “holy foolishness” are practical anchors for living faith in troubled times.
• Encouragement for men: Detach, unplug, spend time in the wilderness as Christ and the saints did—the soul needs it.

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Links Mentioned:

• Companions of the Cross
• Fr. Mark Goring’s YouTube Channel
• School of Reading

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Transcript

[Father Mark]

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[Matt Fradd]

Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com Pints with Aquinas is brought to you by Truthly, which is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help, you know, live and defend the Catholic faith. Start your 7 day free trial today when you download Truthly on the app store. Coming soon to Android. How do you see the charismatic renewal today in the church and what's its future, if any?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. To be fully Catholic must include openness to the charism of the Holy Spirit because that's in scripture and it's in our tradition, you know, so to just say, well, I'm not into all those charisms, that's just silly. You can't just dismiss part of what we see clearly in tradition of the church.

[Matt Fradd]

That phrase charismatic renewal, when you hear that, you think, okay, loony people babbling and calling it tongues, negatively put. If you say you're a trad, well, it means you're angry. It means you hate Pope Francis. I'm not saying this is how traditional people feel, but that is often what's placed upon them.

[Father Mark]

You know, especially the young men. You know, like guys, you can't be glued to your social media all the time. You know, getting out into nature and just doing real stuff is a real, you know, remedy. And the thing is it's. It's in the tradition. Not only did Jesus do 40 days, but it says a number of times Jesus went off to a deserted place and there he prayed.

[Matt Fradd]

It's great to have you on the show. This is amazing because you and I have known each other for a long time.

[Father Mark]

That's right. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

First time we met each other we. That net training 2002.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Golly, I was 19.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And you mustn't have been much older.

[Father Mark]

I was a brand new priest, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Cuz I was. I think I was ordained in 2002. My memory serves me. I think so. God.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. So I either. Yeah. I think I showed up in Canada in August. Okay, so when were you ordained?

[Father Mark]

Me?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Wonderful. So you probably came to training and celebrated Holy Mass.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I enjoyed, I enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I remember just being so taken by The Companions of the Cross for those who are watching. That's your order.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Founded by the good Father Bob Bedard.

[Father Mark]

That's right. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Who I loved.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. He inspired a lot of people. Yeah. Listen, it's. It's so cool to be here in Florida. Like I mentioned earlier, when I heard you were in Florida, I thought, oh, that's a nice place. I love. I love Florida.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

And you're happy here?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, we moved here in August because of my wife's health, and she's, you know, she still struggles with health issues, but she's noticeably different. Noticeably better.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And as Father Dave from Franciscan said to me, he's like, just be glad you're not married to a woman who actually needs to live in the constant cold and damp. I mean, that is possible, right?

[Father Mark]

At St. Paka.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe she needed to move to Washington state.

[Father Mark]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

That would have been tough.

[Father Mark]

So Florida's nice.

[Matt Fradd]

I. I'm not going to complain.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Now, you wanted me to mention the pint of the beer.

[Father Mark]

Very important. So. I love these mugs, by the way. And one of the reasons I'm here, obviously, I'm honored to be here on pints with Aquinas. But one of the reasons I'm here is. I think it was. It might have been four or five years ago, your assistant reached out to me, and she says, could you be on pints with Aquinas? And my response right away is, well, do I get one of those mugs? And she sent one right away, and I was thrilled. I finally have one of these mugs. But then I don't know what happened. It didn't work out. I think it might have been Covid. And I was supposed to be in Steubenville a while ago, and I got sick, like, the last minute, and I thought, like, is this ever gonna happen? And I felt guilty because I got this mug. You know, they sent me a mug, and I. Part of it, too. I wanted to mention is, like, I get a lot of requests for, you know, speaking engagements and interviews. I don't do that anymore. So I want people to know, listen, the reason I'm here is you sent me a mug a few years ago, and it's up at my cabin, and every time I use it, I always think I'm supposed to go on pints with Aquinas on these days so I finally can drink from this mug, knowing that I fulfilled my promise. And.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. So people just have to send you a nice mug, and you might Come and speak at their parents.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, that's right. Everyone track their weakness and. Yeah, so it's good to be here.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Praise God. So tell people about the Companions of the Cross, if you don't mind, because Father Bob, I quote him all the time. This one line that he. You may have heard me say it, because I say it almost every episode since discernment became fashionable. No one's made a decision since.

[Father Mark]

That's a. That's a Father Bob.

[Matt Fradd]

That's a Father Bob quote. I think that's fantastic. And, yeah, he was so beautiful. I. I went to confession to him a couple of times, and I. I don't know what anyone else's experiences of. Of him was, but for me, when I was in his presence, it really felt like I was the only one in the universe. He just had this way about him of really tending to the person in front of him and had a lot of love for him.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he was. He was really kind of a special priest. His story is interesting. Like, he. He was what you describe as a faithful priest. You know, he was well loved. But he had an experience through the charismatic renewal where he was prayed over for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And. And he tells the whole story, and it's kind of humorous. You know, at first he thought charismatics were all crazy and that. But when they prayed over him and said, oh, you can receive all these gifts of the Holy Spirit, he says, you know, all these charisms, I'm not really that interested in them, but he says the one thing I would love is a gift of prayer, because he would see people in particular charismatics, just this love for prayer and spending time in prayer. And he was embarrassed to admit that as a priest, he barely prayed at all. He, you know, he tried to do his breviary, but beyond that, he just felt like his, you know, time was meant to be spent kind of doing the work and getting things done, you know. And so they prayed over him for a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And he says the next morning when he. He didn't feel anything when he prayed over him, but he says the next morning when he woke up, as soon as he woke up, there was this thirst to be with God and to pray. And so he said he had this chair, this armchair, and he said he just couldn't wait to just go sit in that armchair. And he said he knew exactly what to do. And he filled, I guess, an hour because he got into the habit of praying, starting his day with A holy hour. But he knew exactly how to spend that hour. And it was just so life giving. And that grace never left him. And so he felt that he received a gift of prayer, you know. And it also just kind of changed his view of how to minister. Like, he really thought, I think the way he put it was he thought it was up to the priest to run the church, you know, to kind of do God's work. And then his big discovery was, well, no, no, the Lord wants to run the church, you know, and we need to see what he's doing and, and support it and let him do his work, you know. And so it just kind of. It's like things turned upside down for him, or we could say right side up, where all of a sudden he realized, wait a minute, it's the Holy Spirit, who is the one changing lives, convincing people, setting people on fire, like doing the work. And my job is to just see what the Holy Spirit is doing and support it, you know. And so I guess part of his experience was he says he was just transformed by the Holy Spirit and one of the fruits of the Spirit is love, you know. And so like, me too, when I met him, I just felt like I was loved by, by a father who really did genuinely care about me and it. And it's hard to describe that experience, you know, like someone who, you know, whatever remembers your name and is just, you know, really kind and that he's, he touched a lot of people. And it's, it's the same kind of vein as they say, St. John Bosco. Apparently, when, when you, like, he. All these, you know, boys living in the streets, these, these, these underprivileged young people, they would meet him and they would just be so drawn to his goodness and love. Like. And then also St. Philip Neri, again, Philip Neri was filled with the Holy Spirit, but he just had this drawing power, you know, that we would say, well, it was the Holy Spirit, like he was filled with the love of God, you know. And when we're filled with the love of God, there should be, when people meet us, encounter us, an encounter with the love of God, you know, I mean, Saint Mother Teresa, I think would be, and Saint John Paul too. You hear stories of people meet them and they're struck with a goodness, a love, a tenderness, you know. And so Father Bob, that's one of the most common things people mention about him is like, wow, yeah, when I met him, I just really felt like he genuinely loved me. And again, I would say, I mean, it was obviously him, but the Spirit, you know, like he abandoned himself to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came and filled him and a manifestation of that was. Was just love. And St. Paul too. I see.

[Matt Fradd]

St. John, Paul. Paul the Apostle.

[Father Mark]

St. Paul the Apostle. You remember when he left on his voyage, there they were all weeping, you know, and you think they wouldn't have.

[Matt Fradd]

Done that if they didn't feel loved.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Like what was going on there? You know? And so anyways, yeah, I remember if.

[Matt Fradd]

If I remember correctly, he, him saying that the next morning after that prayer experience, he started reading the scriptures ravenously. And it had been maybe hours.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

It was only after he, that that he realized, oh my goodness, I, like, I haven't done this before. I don't know why I have this insatiable desire. And then he. He made the connection to that prayer.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

You know, I like to come up with weird analogies because it helps me understand things, but to the point of loving the person in front of us.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

If we lived in like a post apocalyptic landscape and had not come upon another human being in months, and then suddenly we did think of that experience, like, here is one like me and the kind of attention I would pay to you. And yet so often I think we treat people like objects, which is cliche.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But I mean, I went down, I got my coffee this morning. Did I see the person? Was I interested in them?

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Or wasn't I? And I think, yeah, as you grow in the Lord, you begin to give things their proper value, including human persons.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that should definitely be one of the fruits of, you know, walking with the Lord and being filled with the Holy Spirit, is that we're, you know, somewhat nice people, at least some of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

How did he found the Companions of the Cross?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, well, he, like I mentioned, people were drawn to him, including young men who were encountering the Lord, falling in love with the Lord and wanting to, you know, do God's will. And there was a number of young men who were discerning the priesthood, I think some even in the seminary, and they were struggling and they came to Father Bob with kind of some of the struggles they were having in the seminary and all of that. And he was concerned for them. So he said, well, listen, why don't we meet on a regular basis and I'll try to encourage you because again, there was the experience of really knowing that the Lord is pouring out his grace right now. He pours out his grace at all times, but there was A particular sense of, like, God is here, he's on the move, so let's let him pour his love into our lives. And so he began to meet with them every Friday evening. And I guess it was just, you know, over time, there was just a real sense that this is meant to be more than just us kind of hanging out. Like, I think this is meant to endure, you know, even once, once the guys were ordained. And then there was this sense. And this was again, in the context of, you know, kind of a charismatic spirituality. So they felt they were kind of hearing from the Lord and kind of getting these senses. Well, I feel the Lord is saying that, but once we are ordained, we're supposed to try to minister together, like, kind of stay connected and work together. And then finally there was a sense that they were supposed to actually share life, live together. And that's when Father Bob realized, wait a minute. That's a community. That's a religious community. And he thought, that's easier said than done. And he went to the bishop, and when he shared the vision with the bishop, the bishop's response, I guess it knocked Father Bob off his feet. The bishop said, that's exactly what I've had. Sense the Lord.

[Matt Fradd]

Which bishop was this? Oh, not print again.

[Father Mark]

No, no, no. Was it Bishop Plur? I. I don't. I don't remember.

[Matt Fradd]

Wow, how interesting. The bishop had that sense, too. So I would have thought the bishop would have went, no, no, no, no more religious orders.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah. Father Bob was shocked, and the bishop basically gave him green lights to proceed. You know, and I guess one of the strengths of our community is our shared life. Like, we believe that the quality of our ministry flows out of the quality of our life together. So for us, our community life isn't just kind of something that. Like an accidental. It's. For us, it's actually central, you know, so for us, loving one another, sharing life together, as, you know, brothers in the Lord is where we get our strength and power to be witnesses. You know, I mean, obviously we get our strength and power from the Lord, but we just. We feel that our life together is meant to be a witness. Witness, but also meant to give us kind of the strength to, you know, to. To minister to God's people. And a lot of. A lot of our parishioners, like, we have parishes in different places and different ministries, but a lot of our parishioners, they mention, they really like the fact that, you know, we're a community, you know, sort of a brotherhood. And we, you know, we. We Love one another. We do things together, you know, sometimes go on adventures together or, you know, whatever. Have our, you know, community times and all that. Like, they. I think it's. It's a. It is a witness to them, and it inspires them, you know, and I think they're also happy for us, you know, because it's. It's nice to see priests, you know, be able to share. To share life. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Love to talk about the charismatic renewal. I feel like that's put a bad taste in people's mouth. You know, that. That phrase, you know, charismatic, charismatic renewal. And I want to. I'd love to. I'd love to explore that with you, because I know that you come out of that and still exist within it. I feel like maybe some of the. Maybe the reason people don't like the term charismatic who are charismatic might be for the same reason people who are traditional don't like the label trad. Yeah, it comes with a whole lot of baggage. So negatively put, if you say you're a trad, well, it means you're angry. It means you hate Pope Francis. I'm not saying this is how traditional people feel, but that is often what's placed upon them. And so I could see a traditionalist saying, no, no, I'm just. I'm just Catholic. And I love the liturgy. Liturgy and our heritage, and I think we have a right to it. Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So I think maybe similarly, people who are charismatic, quote, unquote, when you hear that, you think, okay, looney. People talking in babbling and calling in tongues. You know, we hear about abuses in charismatic orders, or not charismatic orders, but charismatic communities where, you know, people are asking the leader, is the Lord letting me. Does the Lord want me to buy a car? And the leader will go and discern it and come back and tell them. And it just sounds weird. And. And yet. So I guess I'm giving you my opinion that I really want you to talk about this. And yet, you know, when we read the lies of the saints, we don't bat an eyelid when we hear them hear from the Lord. Like, that makes sense. Or if we have a priest telling his vocation story and he talks about this intimacy with Christ and that Christ guided him in this beautiful, intimate way. Like, yeah, that's great. But there's something scary for us, I think, as Catholics, when it comes to this intimacy, because one, we don't want to be fooled, and we know that we can be, and we know that people have been. And two, it's just a bit Messy. And so we prefer just. No, we'll just say the prayers. None of this intimacy stuff.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, so what is. How do you see the Charismatic Renewal today in the church and what's its future, if any?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in the charismatic, whatever, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal or those who consider themselves Catholic Charismatics, you have a spectrum, you know, so you have some who, yeah, are just kind of charismaniacs kind of go overboard, and others who are more sensible, you know, and funny, too. There's. There are quite a few so called, you know, traditionalists, like priests, for example, who are quite traditionalists who are very charismatic, you know, sometimes it's kind of almost amusing to see. But the point is, you mentioned Father Bob, and I think that's the reason a lot of us, including myself, many others, were open to the Charismatic Renewal was because he was just very sensible about the whole charismatic thing. He joked a lot about it. He had a sense of humor about the whole thing. He warned about extremes and exaggerations. Father Bob was deeply eucharistic and loyal to the magisterium of the Church, all those things. So he kind of showed us that you can be open to and operate in the charisms of the Holy Spirit and still be thoroughly Catholic. And he would even argue that to be fully Catholic must include openness to the charism of the Holy Spirit, because that's in Scripture and it's in our tradition, you know. So to just say, well, I'm not into all those charisms. Well, like, that's just silly, you know, like, you can't just dismiss part of what. What we see clearly in, you know, Paul's writings, for example, and in the tradition of the Church. So I think a lot of us who would identify as charismatic, we would just point to leaders in the Church who model a charismatic spirituality in a way that we find very Catholic, you know, very, very proper, you know. And so, like, for example, I don't know if you have come across now, well, Cardinal Raniero Cantalamesa. So his. His books were really good, you know, on sober intoxication of the Holy Spirit. I love Mary Healy, you know, Dr. Mary Healy. I mean, I know she. Yeah, she encourages the. The use of the charisms.

[Matt Fradd]

Ralph Moxley.

[Father Mark]

Ralph Martin. Yeah. Peter Herbeck. So there's, you know, there's a whole world of, you know, people who operate in the charisms. And the thing, too, is when you see people operating the charisms with power, that kind of gets your attention, too. Like, I know in the African Church in Africa. I've met so many mighty, you know, ministers of God, like priests, who, oh, wow. Like, they just operate in the charisms of the Holy Spirit, you know, praying for healing and prophecy, but just good Catholic priests, but just moving in the power of the Holy Spirit. And when you see that, you kind of. You say, wait a minute. That's how it's supposed to be. Like, a man of God is supposed to be working in the authority and the power of the Holy Spirit. Also in the Latino world, you know, like, when I was in Houston, we had a lot of preachers from all around the world, including, you know, different countries in South America and Mexico and all that. And again, some of them just operating in the power, the anointing of the Holy Spirit. And again, you. You just see that power at work and also transforming lives, you know, and again, seeing healings and you think to yourself, I think this is what Catholicism is meant to look like, you know, just a real manifest power of the Holy Spirit. And again, especially, I think some of the. You know, anyway, we had just a lot of really powerful experiences of the least grace.

[Matt Fradd]

Please share some, because I can see someone being skeptical of this until you've witnessed something that you can't naturally explain.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, Well, I remember. Yeah, I just. We saw a number of beautiful healings, you know, at the Charismatic Center.

[Matt Fradd]

I want to say a big thanks to the College of St. Joseph the Worker, based in Steubenville, Ohio. You'll recognize many of their faculty and fellows from the show. People like Dr. Andrew Jones, Dr. Jacob Imam, Dr. Mark Barnes, Dr. Alex Plato. Listen to this. Their program combines the rigor of an elite bachelor's degree with the practicality of training in the skilled trades. And their tuition model is structured so that students graduate without crippling debt. If you're a bright young man thinking about what college to go to, apply to a place where you not only learn the good, but gain the power to do it. Apply to the College of St. Joseph the Worker. If you're a parent, look into this college for your children. And if you're not in either category, just consider supporting the mission. Go to collegeofsaintjoseph.com Matt Fradd to learn more. That's collegeofstjoseph.com MattFrad to learn more. There will be a link below. Thanks.

[Father Mark]

I just. I always want to make sure I have all the details right or don't exaggerate something or something. But I remember. What was it? There was a child, one of our priests Very charismatic. Baptized the child, I think was the child deaf? And after being baptized, could hear. And I remember we had a healing service, and it was actually a layman who was just. The Lord was really anointing him for healing. So we brought him in just to pray for healing. And after the service, there was a family that was walking out, and I greeted them, and they had two children. One was, I don't know about that big, and the other one was a little smaller. And I greeted the boy, and then I greeted his younger brother, and the younger brother didn't respond at all. And his older brother said, oh, he doesn't speak. He can't speak. And the mother says, yeah, he hasn't spoken. He can't speak.

[Matt Fradd]

How old is he? I don't know, roughly 6, 10, 20.

[Father Mark]

No, probably 6ish, you know. And so I just got down at his level and prayed with him. And I said, okay, now repeat after me. Abba, Abba. And the boy starts saying, abba, Abba. And the brother is, like, stunned. The mother is kind of, you know, kind of getting a little emotional. Then I said, now say, okay, Jesus, Jesus. And the boys are saying, jesus, Jesus. You know, and that's. Mom is really getting excited. And then I think I got the boy to say, jesus, I love you. And he's saying it to me perfectly fine. Wasn't surprising for me because I never experienced him not speaking. But the mother, she didn't thank me. She didn't thank the Lord. She grabs her son, holds him and hugging with, you know, with. With tears. So you kind of think, I, I don't think she's faking that. Like, I think for her at least, this, this. This is a little miracle, you know, and, and so, yeah, you know, just kind of seeing. And for something like that, it takes a measure of faith and holy foolishness to kind of step out and say, okay, well, we believe the Lord Jesus is, you know, a healer. Let's pray right now. And. Yeah, so just seeing people, you know, kind of dealing with kind of struggles, maybe levels of oppression for a long time and, you know, just. Just receiving prayer and all of a sudden, like, it's, it's gone, you know, and, and so no, I.

[Matt Fradd]

What I. I've said this before, but what I love about people who live their faith in this way, let's just say that, is that they, they. They act and live and pray as if God were alive. And as you said, on the move.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And I, I know people do that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Who would consider themselves traditionalists as well. I'm not pitting one against the other, but there is something. I do think sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking of Christianity as this syllogism, that if we just accept it and we abide by the morality as taught by the Church, our lives will flourish. And the reason for social chaos is because people don't accept this syllogism and live in accord with this morality. And we need to get people on board with this, you know, and if you asked any Catholic, is that how you live your faith? No one would agree to that. But I've seen myself live like that. And there's truth to that, Right. Like, I think Christianity is true. I think we have good reasons for God's existence, the historicity of Christ, etc, and I do think that Catholic morality is the most beautiful of moralities. That when we implement it and try to live according to the teachings of the Church, our lives will flourish. That's all true. But it's also the true, true that the good Lord Jesus is somehow inside of me. I don't even know what that means. And yet I believe it and I trust it. And, and that he's on the move, that he's working in my life.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

That he wants to sanctify me, he wants to heal me and those around me. You know, like, this is a, this is a living Christ. And that's what I love about people at their best. Who would say they're charismatic.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the Lord certainly wants us to, you know, be filled with the Holy Spirit. And that should manifest in us, proclaiming Jesus, you know, telling people about the Lord, it should manifest itself in us. If we encounter people who are broken and wounded and struggling and enslaved and that we can say, hey, you know, there is a Savior. I know him and I can introduce you to him. We can ask him right now and let him touch you in whatever way he wants, you know, and to me, every Christian must do that because Christian means other Christs. So when we encounter people who are lost, who are broken, who are wounded, who are afraid, who are oppressed, we must, because we are Christian, other Christ, we must bring healing and grace and love and life and newness to them. And every Christian has to find a way that they're comfortable doing that. You know, like, I, I'm not the type of person to go harassing random people saying, hey, do you know the Lord? I mean, on the very rare occasion I'll feel an inspiration to, hey, go talk to that person. But it's not very common, but I'm the type of guy, anytime I have an encounter with a person and they open the door slightly, I jump in, you know, so whatever. If I'm on an airplane, I typically. I mean, I typically greet the people next to me warmly and say hello. I love to chitchat with people typically. But again, I won't get into tell them all about, you know, the gospel unless there's a little we crack in the door. If there's some indication that there's, you know, an openness or the spirit, you know, wants me to share, I'll do it. And I love doing and I'm comfortable doing, you know. And so I think everybody Christian, you know, should have that zeal because that's. That's what sets the church on fire. You know, like you. You take, for example, a country like Brazil that used to be, like, so Catholic, one of the most Catholic countries in the world. I think that at one time, was it the. The biggest. The country with the biggest number of Catholics, I think, was Brazil. And in the last decades, so much of Brazil has gone to evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. And you think to yourself, well, what are these evangelicals and Pentecostals doing? Well, they're filled with a zeal for Jesus and a conviction that the Holy Spirit is working in power. And they're telling people about that and offering it to people. They're saying, listen, I used to be an alcoholic. I couldn't stop drinking. And then I surrendered my life to Jesus. I repented of my sins. I started reading the Bible. I haven't drunk since. And he can do the same, too. Would you like that? And people are like, well, I. I guess. And they're being, you know, touched by the Lord Jesus and a fire spreading. We're seeing this happening in a lot of parts of Africa, other parts of the world. And I think a lot of Catholics are realizing that this being impelled to share Christ with others should be normative for Catholics. Now, again, we try not to be obnoxious about it. We try not to be pushy about it. We certainly don't want to. What's the word that Pope Francis always use? We don't want to proselytize. Is that the word?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, I think so.

[Father Mark]

We don't want to be, you know, quote unquote, proselytizing.

[Matt Fradd]

I want to know what that means.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, I don't think anyone's exactly sure. But the point is, is we, you know, we. We. We want to be a. We have to we must be, if we're filled with, with the spirit, if we are Christians, other Christs, that we have to be sharing the fire, the love, and again, in each person in his or her own way.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. Well, I mean, think about how enthusiastic people who are on a particular diet or exercise regimen that's working for them are to tell you about that thing. But I guess the analogy might be better that if the entire world was sick and bloody tired of being told about the Paleo or carnivore diet, sometimes it feels like that. It's like if you're aware that everyone's sick and tired of it.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Then you're like, all right, well, I don't want to just immediately turn people off with this. I'm. I'm not promoting either of these diets, you understand. But let's say for the sake of argument that these are beneficial. I think they are to some degree.

[Father Mark]

Ye.

[Matt Fradd]

Um, then. Yeah, then, then I like that analogy because I'm talking to somebody and they express, like, how they're physically ill or they're dealing with autoimmune issues. It's like, ah, okay, then maybe now you're open to hearing about this diet that's helped me.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

It's sort of like that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Fradd]

Like I'm aware that I'm going to turn off everybody by talking about Christ because who knows what they think when they think that. But if they reveal a sort of spiritual sickness, it seems to me our world is isolated and hopeless. Many people feel isolated because Satan has sifted us like wheat in our modern culture and we're hopeless and we are in desperate need of communion and hope. And that's precisely what Jesus Christ brings. And I love what you said earlier too, about this holy foolishness, because you can feel like a real idiot when you step out and say, can I pray for you? Or can I tell you about Jesus?

[Father Mark]

No.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay, like that, that's, that's rejection. And if. And it hurts because you feel embarrassed.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But we want our love for Christ to be stronger than our fear of embarrassment.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

At the same time as you say, being, being prudent and not. Because no one likes feeling like a project. And we all know the feeling we have when the, the Mormon shows up at our door or the Jehovah's Witness.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Like, okay, I don't want to talk to you.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, really.

[Matt Fradd]

Or maybe you do because you want to evangelize them back. But we don't. We don't want people to feel like a Project. But, yeah, okay, I. I get the sense that the faithful Catholics I meet today are kind of done with the guitars and the happy, clappy stuff of the 80s. Franciscan University of Steubenville is a good example of this. Right.

[Father Mark]

It.

[Matt Fradd]

Just to look at it, I think objectively, it feels like the charismatic element is shrinking, and it's still there, but it feels like it's on life support. And some people seem to want it to exist longer than maybe it should. But you go to a daily Mass, and you've got the majority of people kneeling to receive Eucharist, the women availing. So even if you didn't like that, even if you were like Cardinal Supich, right. Who dissuade people from kneeling to receive, it's like, well, what are you going to do? I mean, is, are we not to listen to where the Spirit seems to be leading us? And what I've experienced, because I had a brief stint in this sort of charismatic circles in the, you know, early 2000s, is that everyone I know, yeah, they're still open to hearing from the Lord, being led by the Lord, communing with the Blessed Mother, praying for healing, still 100%. But there's also this. This deep longing for tradition and this desire to see those traditions that I think were kind of deprived of us being kind of reinstated. Do you see that? And what is that?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, well, I mean, to me, there's no question that more and more Catholics, or many Catholics are just kind of longing for. How would I put it? Like a rock solid foundation and kind of a. Maybe a security and a clarity, you know, like the. I think the wishy washiness that we sometimes can see in the Church. For so many people, it's just so frustrating, disheartening, and something as simple as celebrating the liturgy according to the rubrics or who knows what else. It feels like at this time, it's way overdue that we're getting the most basic things right. And so, again, when you see still some liturgical abuse or just weird things happening, I think a lot of people are. Catholics are kind of done with that. They just want kind of the Catholicism, you know, in all its purity, in all its clarity. So, therefore, things like, you know, reverence at Mass, receiving the Holy Eucharist in a, you know, reverent way, you know, oftentimes kneeling and on the tongue and all that, just things like that. I think it's like the. The. The experimenting after Vatican ii, especially the younger generation, they just. There's not much kind of patience for and even sometimes again, what they did to some of the churches in the name of the spirit of Vatican ii. Like, I think a lot of us, we look back and we think, like, what in the world were they thinking, you know?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. What spirit was at play here? I went to its gorgeous church in Ireland. I forget where, but from the outside it was like this Gothic cathedral.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And I went in and I nearly cried. I mean, it was carpeted over. It had a bunch of children's artwork all over the place.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

It looked like they turned it into what you would think of when you think of a safe space at a university. It was utterly depressing.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Or I went to a monastery in Ireland and they had removed the tabernacle from the chapel and put it in the library because they were doing yoga. Yoga was being taught in the chapel. And I went into this library and I saw this. I know it makes me want to punch someone in the face. I'm not sure if that's good either. But I saw this tabernacle on the ground and I just thought, oh, it's an old tabernacle. And I opened it up and the Blessed Sacrament was there. And I knelt and prayed. But come on, like, is there anyone alive today who still wants to do that or are they dying out?

[Father Mark]

Well, that's the million dollar question. Like I said, I think there's definitely.

[Matt Fradd]

People who are alive today who want that. Let's be honest, we're seeing the death throes of it now.

[Father Mark]

I'd love to. I'd love to hear those people speak up. Like. Like, apparently, like, they are out there. But will you get them, you know, speaking publicly and openly and leaving comments open, you know, expressing their desire to see these abuses? You know, like, it seems to me that, you know, any Catholic who's thinking and willing to speak about, you know, what they believe, you know, wants to see a return to, you know, proper practice and all that. Yeah, yeah. But you were mentioning.

[Matt Fradd]

And I'd love you to push back on me here, eh? Because this is the cult. What's lovely about a long form discussion, hey, is that we're thinking things through together. Like, I think the reason people like long form podcasts sometimes more than audiobooks is because these feel more vulnerable. Because they are. We're thinking things through. Hopefully no one will nail me down on a particular thing I said in a conversation or you. We're trying to think these things through. But, I mean, that is just what I'm seeing. It's. We. We just. We want our faith to be taken seriously. And the reverence, the liturgy, the beauty, we have that in our tradition, like, it's.

[Father Mark]

It's almost like the first step or the foundation on which Catholic liturgy and Catholic expression needs to be based, is biblical and orthodox and reverent. And if we can get that established, I think there is place for exuberant praise manifest in different ways, you know, so, again, going to the example of Africa. I've been to Africa a number of times. Oh, man. Their liturgies, like, they seem to be very orthodox, biblical. There doesn't seem to be any kind of rebellion and trying to do weird stuff, but they go on for hours and hours, and they dance and then they sing, and they dance some more, and they sing some more. And. And you. You experience these liturgies with thousands of people, young people, children, you know, and again, just the. They're obviously excited about this. They're not. No one looks bored. They're not just putting in their one hour, you know, like, they are experiencing something.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

And they're coming back week after week, and it's giving them life. And the children, they're not leaving the church. They. They know God is real. They. They experience the love of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and they sing to him and they praise him and they dance. And so you, you know, you ask yourself, like, what's going on here, you know, and why don't we have that in Canada? You know, I don't want that in Canada or other. Other parts of the world.

[Matt Fradd]

If I went to a Holy Mass in Africa and I have.

[Father Mark]

Have.

[Matt Fradd]

I've been to Uganda to evangelize and things like this. If I were to see kind of some kind of dance in an African liturgy, I wouldn't. I would be. No, I wouldn't be offended.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I'd find it beautiful. Probably. If I saw that in Canada, I'd be deeply offended by it. So the question is, why now?

[Father Mark]

What if it was a parish that was very multicultural and the praise was not Maybe like, the big, huge African rallies with, you know, very. Like, a lot of. But what if. What if it was a little more exuberant and expressive while still being reverent? People still, you know, kneel to receive Holy Communion. Everything is, you know, done properly, but there's an exuberance, Right.

[Matt Fradd]

That's. And the.

[Father Mark]

The Africans and maybe Latinos and people from different parts of the world, like, they're. They're experiencing something of the joy of the Lord and the delight of worship in a Catholic liturgy. Would you be okay with that?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, perfect. I think there's something maybe profane in our culture.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

In regards to dancing.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And the kind of music, like, it's associated even in our own minds.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

With rock or. And Whereas perhaps in the. In Africa, some African cultures, it doesn't have that connection. I'm speculating. What do I know? I'm just talking out loud.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And yet, like, the Church has instituted how one ought to celebrate Holy Mass. Sacrosanctum concilium. I wish we would follow that with giving. Gregorian chant, pride and place. So I don't know. I also don't want to too quickly agree with the happy Africans, you know, that you're talking about.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Maybe. Maybe they should.

[Father Mark]

Augustine, his church was happy Africans. Have you ever.

[Matt Fradd]

By happy Africans. What I meant was. What I meant was, if we're talking about, like, dancing in the. In the pews and things like this, like.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. I don't want to.

[Matt Fradd]

Now I'm not the Pope.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And let me. Let me first kind of buffer. Let me say I don't want to demand uniformity where the Church isn't.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I also understand that the. That the church is universal, and so we should expect different devotions, different ways of express, and I think that's good. And I think there could be something unhealthy in trying to artificially implement something upon everybody and make them act in a certain way. I think there's truth to that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But I also think, well, we have a liturgy, and there's a way in which we should. Right. Celebrate that energy. You would agree with that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. So then it's like, where's the flex in the joints, I guess, is what we're asking. Are we?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Well, I mean, again, if. If we're talking about being traditional, we do need to go way back in the tradition. And I gave the example of St. Augustine. I mean, you've read St. Augustine describing his liturgies, you know, like, they were very charismatic. There was jubilation, he called it.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. But tradition is living and it develops.

[Father Mark]

Exactly. So is that not part of the living tradition and development? If it phenomenal.

[Matt Fradd]

If it's developed since that time.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. What's happening in Africa, That's a phenomena, and no one's denying it. Even some of the liberal leaders, cardinals in Europe, they're looking at Africa and they're saying, okay, we admit there's something good going on there. And so that's part of the living tradition. And the Church has enough wisdom to not quench you Know, a movement that is, that seems to be innocent and good hearted. You know, like there's a difference between kind of a rebellion against, you know, church teaching or practice and kind of defying what, you know, the church instructs and all that. And people just, why, why sing a two minute opening song when you can sing a 20 minute opening. So there's nothing wrong with that. And again, why, why stand like this and, and not even move your lips when you can be praising wholeheartedly with tears rolling down? Yeah, so. Yeah, so. And the church looks at that and says, I guess there's nothing.

[Matt Fradd]

Let him go.

[Father Mark]

That's. So you know what I'm talking about.

[Matt Fradd]

I guess, is when some kind of ideology comes to t bone tradition and, and make it something that it hasn't been. Right. So I've heard certain priests say, well, if you really want to be traditional, like, here's how, here's how Mass was celebrated in the first century. And I think that's a wrong way of thinking of it. I think tradition has developed over time.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. And, and continuing to develop.

[Matt Fradd]

So I'm with you if you say that there has been this ongoing tradition within different parts of the world that isn't being kind of subverted. But I also think, like, when I was in Uganda, there was a lot of. And people who are watching this from Africa. Please tell us your opinion. Because my experience was only beautiful. Yeah, I, I told my wife I want to go. Just lived there for a few months. The people were gorgeous.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

There was a lot of temptation. There were a lot of people who were telling me that their family members were going to the evangelical churches because the evangelical churches were like this and that. Yeah, yeah, we've heard that story in America and Australia in the 80s.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And so I want to agree with you. I also want to say there also could be something like we're trying to become more like the Protestants, to give people a quick rush when we need to cling to our tradition.

[Father Mark]

I don't think that's the case. My understanding is that when the missionaries from Europe went to Africa, first of all, how do I put this? They say a lot of the priests who say, hey, go to Africa were kind of the fearless ones, you know, the more bold and courageous priests and who maybe were a little more on the prophetic side. And sometimes we don't like prophetic people. So we say, listen, if you're filled with all the zeal and big ideas, go to the missions. And they did. And they brought the hymns from Ireland and other places. And they're still singing them today in Africa. And so many men are, you know, their name is Patrick, but they've taken them and they've added a bit of that African. So that comes from the Catholics, you know. And so I mean, again, what tensions or what influences at any particular period are in an area affecting people that's, I guess, complex. But I would say that, no, like that original kind of spirit of praise and love of God and good news again. When the missionaries went to Africa, they brought good news. The God who made you loves you and he sent Jesus and now the gates of heaven are open for you and he's a good father and you can delight in him and praise him. And they caught that. And because it wasn't just a message from a textbook, but the living God was backing the words of the missionaries. They were encountering the love of God which transformed them. It changed everything. And they believed and they shared, you know, the gospel with their family and all that. And so it's a beautiful phenomena. And again, to me it's a sign of hope. And I think we can learn from places where there's fire. We can learn from them, but we still like, even places where there is fire. It has to be pastored and it has to be properly, I don't know what cared for. So there's always.

[Matt Fradd]

Without a riverbank, you just have a swamp.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, exactly. So there's always a possibility of abuse. And I think, you know, generally the church is pretty good at, you know, discerning and letting good things continue and trying to see. I think one, one thing with the church is because we're all about love, we can take quite a bit of time to kind of stomp out something that's going off the rails. And I think after Vatican ii, like, you know, I guess it was just a, it was a time of experimentation. And in some parts of the world there was too much kind of freedom to, to do all kinds of weird experimenting in it. I think we're kind of looking back and, and you know, shaking our heads, thinking like that was weird, you know, and in some parts of the world, more so than others, you know, and.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, even like a charismatic, self identifying charismatic like Ralph Martin.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

Would, would say that Vatican documents, second Vatican documents are beautiful.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

A couple of ambiguities. They've been cleared up.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

He says what needs to be rejected is the spirit of Vatican ii.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And which I think is what you're saying too, there was a lack of oversight that led to these abuses. Okay. But maybe back to where we're more comfortable talking. The United States, Australia, Canada. I am seeing this, this move away from the guitars and the freaking tambourines. If I walked into a church and I saw that, I just, I, I, it would, it would be terrible.

[Father Mark]

Let me share an experience.

[Matt Fradd]

Let me finish this. Go ahead and then get your take on it. I just think this is actually what's happening now. You could say this is a sociological phenomenon. Maybe it's not a movement of the spirit, or you could call a movement of the spirit. But wherever I go in Canada and Franciscan and Australia, there are people who might be open to that sort of thing, but they just don't want it in their liturgies anymore. And so the fire and the passion and the joy I'm seeing is this return to tradition. And I would, I would think you must be seeing that as well. Even though you minister in a charismatic parish.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And so am I right in that assumption?

[Father Mark]

And yeah, so I would say you're kind of right. I think that Catholics, it's become a non negotiable for faithful Catholics that we're going to be faithful to the liturgy, how it's meant to be done, and in particular, you know, reverence for the Holy Eucharist. So no silly stuff. I think the days of your faithful Catholics tolerating silly stuff are over, you know, but the thing is, is there's still kind of a longing in the hearts of the people, and I believe a grace of the Holy Spirit for exuberant expression or heartfelt expression that you can't tamp down. You know. And so the example I was going to give is, I remember once I'd moved from, I forget what my exact situation was, but I was more kind of committed to more of a traditional, proper way of doing liturgy. Kind of like you're saying, not as enthusiastic about the guitars, tambourines and all that. And I was invited to, I think it was just Hear Confessions at an event. I walk into big room full of young people, a youth event. And they were doing the, whatever you want to call it, contemporary praise. And when I walked in, you could feel the anointing, Praise God. And I thought to myself, I technically at this point in my life, don't like that kind of music, but it's going right to my heart. And I can tell everyone in this room is being deeply touched by the worship. And I can tell that those worship leaders, they're not looking for attention right now. They are giving glory to God and There's something beautiful happening. So, Lord, I repent, you know, for kind of writing this stuff off too quickly and praise God. So I guess I've kind of learn to, you know, have an openness to what the Lord is doing, because I do, you know, have, you know, I drop in on different events at different places, and there's a variety of, you know, ways people are worshiping. And I'm learning to see that, you know, the Spirit works in many ways. And I'm kind of a little more kind of okay with that, you know, unless maybe judgmental or strict or narrow in what I kind of whatever, accept as. As, you know, the. The Lord moving. So, I mean, again, to me, the bottom line is I think faithful Catholics are done with the silly stuff and the, you know, lack of reverence and the lack of kind of orthopraxy or whatever. They're done with that. But I think you can't tell the Spirit what to do, you know, and if there's good manifestation, you give the example of tambourine. Just the mention of a tambourine kind of makes me cringe a bit because I was never big on tambourines, you know. But I'll tell you something. If the Holy Spirit wants to anoint a tambourine, oh, he will, you know, and I'm not going to be the one to stop Him. You know, tambourines are mentioned in the Bible, you know, so to just. And I know you're not doing this, but to just say tambourines. Pathetic. We're done with that. Well, maybe we're done with that for the next five years, but five years from now, there might be an anointing of tambourines. You know, I know it's a silly example, but, you know, I do think that, you know, the Lord does love to pour out a grace of childlike worship and delighting in him, and it can manifest itself in exuberant praise. And even within the context of a liturgy, we can see something of that. And I believe it is proper to the liturgy because of the long tradition of the church. I mean, even in the Orthodox Church. I mean, aren't you related a bit to the Orthodox?

[Matt Fradd]

Now I'm in Florida. I don't go to an Eastern Catholic Church, but did for many years in Georgia and Ohio because, you know, the.

[Father Mark]

Orthodox, one of their criticisms of Catholics, I think, at the time of Vatican II was, you guys aren't into the Holy Spirit enough. You guys don't mention the Holy Spirit enough. Because in the Orthodox, a lot of The Orthodox tradition, the Holy Spirit is more central, you know, like becoming fire and experiencing the warmth of your heart. Like going back to, you know, from the desert Fathers and even, you know, some of the Orthodox liturgies I've been to, like, there's some energy, there's some bells and whistles, and there's a kind of. Whereas if you contrast that.

[Matt Fradd]

And not just that, Father, but in the south, where Orthodoxy is seeing a revival as Protestants are becoming Orthodox. I've Even seen on YouTube this reclamation of these old Southern hymns, but it's not in a hokey way, that is to say, artificially imposed into the liturgy. They're using kind of the traditional chants, but they're bringing in their culture.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

An analogy I would use is imagine a mother and a father go away for a long vacation, and maybe they're gone for months, and they come home, and you've got the teenage children, the younger children, and they've just made a wreck of the place. And, you know, they haven't been brushing their teeth, they haven't been making their beds, and their poor eating habits, and their parents just crack down on. We cannot have this anymore. And so there's this insistence on order, and we're getting back to things. Maybe that's what we're seeing among certain people with a more traditional bent. We're fed up with the silliness, as you put it.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And we've got no room for it anymore. We need to get things back on track, which is admirable.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But can also go too far.

[Father Mark]

And also, again, the Lord moves in different ways. Like, for me, if I go to the traditional Latin Mass in Ottawa, I love it. Great. You know, it's a beautiful manifestation, and the Lord is working mightily in this place. But it doesn't mean that that's the only way or the only setting in which the Lord pours out grace and power, you know, and so there's a lot of people now encountering the Lord and how transcendent he is and how, you know, powerful he is in more traditional liturgies. Praise God. But it doesn't mean that down the road where they're doing things in another way, still showing reverence and, you know, that the Lord can't work mightily. And I guess the nature of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit loves creativity and, oh, he said the example of the tambourine, the Holy Spirit, if he wants to anoint the tambourine and the guitars, all that he will, you know, and, you know, to. To kind of how do you gel.

[Matt Fradd]

That, then, with the Second Vatican's call to give Gregorian chant pride of place? Because someone could say, fair enough, Vatican ii, but the Holy Spirit will do what he wants.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's awesome when even in a, you know, quote unquote, charismatic liturgy, there's some Gregorian.

[Matt Fradd]

Chant that I don't want to see. That. That just feels so. That feels so violent. That is to say, there's a.

[Father Mark]

There's two.

[Matt Fradd]

It's. It's like trying to marry two worlds, and it's just.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

The idea that you would have Gregorian chant and then you would have some kind of Hillsong type.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I. I just find that so distasteful.

[Father Mark]

So say, for example, say the opening song is maybe a hill song types. I. Yeah, I'm not.

[Matt Fradd]

And by the way, I was praising to Hillsong two days ago in my car driving down the road, so I'm. I'm okay listening to praise and worship.

[Father Mark]

Opening hymn is a song like that.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

After a. Hopefully a beautiful homily and a, you know, reverent liturgy at the time of Holy Communion, a Gregorian song.

[Matt Fradd]

It feels like we're trying. And again, this is just me. I don't speak on behalf of the church. All right, so you're asking my opinion, and that's all this is. It feels like you're trying to awkwardly marry two worlds. Here's what it feels like. It would be like saying, well, you know, in the Eastern tradition, you go to Divine Liturgy, there's certain elements, and that look very different.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So what if we brought all of them together? So we'll do, like, praise and worship in the beginning Gregorian chant, and then we'll do some kind of Eastern thing at the end. It's like, why. I don't understand how that's at all cohesive.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Now, again, see, the reality of parish life is you work with what you got.

[Matt Fradd]

I was about to bring that up, too.

[Father Mark]

So the rest of us who are.

[Matt Fradd]

Terminally online have the pleasure of being massively ideological and not having to deal with people.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

The priest has to deal with human beings.

[Father Mark]

I have a brother who is a priest. He has four parishes. Wow. Extremely hard to find any worship leaders. Little country parishes. So if he has a little worship team who does a Hillsong type song and then this. A song from the 70s, and then a Gregorian, like, everyone be, oh, I was so beautiful, you know? So again, there. There's. There's the. The reality of the Holy Spirit works With what he got. Yeah. And so with. With what he's got. And so. So, see, there's a. There's a difference between. Okay, the cathedral. You know. What. What do we do at the cathedral? Well, we spend a hundred thousand dollars for, you know, an excellent, you know, choir leader, and we select the right type of music to represent this diocese and the universal church. Great. But again, your typical parish, you work with what you got, you know, and the Holy Spirit is more than glad to work with whatever person will take whatever five loaves and two fish they have and lead some kind of worship. And so, yeah, I think, because I guess my experience with a lot of liturgies and the different places I've been, including the parish I'm in right now, we do kind of have a blend, like, you don't know, from one liturgy to the next, exactly what kind of blend of worship. But in your typical thing with the liturgy is that there's always at least one worship song that just. You can feel the anointing. I know feeling is not a very popular world in Catholic intellectual circles, but the point is, is you just. You can. You know, everyone is just being touched by this song, and sometimes it's surprising. And worship leaders will talk about that. They'll say, yeah, like, we went through the song list, and we just kind of chose this. This song at the last minute. And, boy, it obviously, it. It just. It worked, and it was powerful, you know, and so. But the thing is, there is place for leaders in the church or thinkers in the church or influencers in the church to steer in one direction and steer away from a certain direction to encourage a certain type of music, discourage another type of music. So it's not wrong for someone to say, hey, listen, the ideal liturgy is being celebrated in this state, you know, 800 miles away. That's how everybody. Paris should be doing things. And that's okay. Like, you know, it's good. Like, Steubenville, I think, was. Was a place a lot of the, you know, the US and even the world look to and say, wow, like, there is an example. Like, there. Look at the songs. They published their own hymnal, you know, and they had a way of doing things, and that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. TZ was a center of, you know, monastic chant type, you know, ecumenism inspired the whole world. So there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said. But in an actual typical parish setting, you work with what you got, and the Holy Spirit anoints, and he loves The Holy Spirit, he loves to anoint his little children and especially the weak. And so when people are making their best effort, the Holy Spirit can anoint it. And maybe that's part of the thing in Africa too, there was just a wholeheartedness, a genuine love for God, and they express that. And it's like, wow, like this, this is working, you know, this is bearing fruit. This is. This is making at the kids. You don't have to drag them to church. They love to come to church, you know, and so.

[Matt Fradd]

So I guess there's a distinction because no one would deny that the Holy Spirit can use whatever he wants, however he wants to do whatever he wants. No one would deny that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So there's. There's what we have and there's what. What we ought to have.

[Father Mark]

Maybe.

[Matt Fradd]

Maybe that's the distinction we have to make. And neither of you, neither you or I are in places where we're going to implement that from the top down. So we're just kind of noticing things.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Because. Yeah, I'm in this weird position. Right. Because I know people who are charismatic like yourself, and I know people who run prayer meetings in their house with guitar. And it's glorious. I love it. It's beautiful that they're doing that. Some of the most beautiful Christians I've met. And by that, I don't mean that in a patronizing way. I mean, they're fasting, they spend an hour before the Blessed sacrament every day, etc. You know, I just feel like increasingly people are feeling about. And maybe I'm wrong and people can let me know below, and I'm sure they will. Increasingly, it feels like people are feeling about guitars at Mass, the way you felt when I said tambourine. It just feels cringy. And we. We just want. We want our tradition back. I liken it to a child whose parents had spent the inheritance and the whole house was taken by the bank and they were left with nothing. I grew up. I didn't know what the rosary was. No one prayed it. There was no incense at my church. There was no call me Father, call me Bob. That's what I. And maybe you grew up with that as well. Where we were deprived of our inheritance. And then I think a lot of Catholics, maybe even during COVID when they had to be at home for whatever reason, were online and they started seeing how thing more traditional liturgies were celebrated going. And they were kind of frustrated, like, why was that never given me?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So I'm seeing. I'm seeing A lot of that in my circles.

[Father Mark]

Well, yeah, and I. I mean, yeah, I got that. I mean, like I said to me.

[Matt Fradd]

And I think you can go too far on both ways.

[Father Mark]

To me, guitar at Mass. No problem is if it's done well, no problem. Again, I give the example of my brother. He probably doesn't like me mentioning him on the podcast here, but he's got four parishes. If he a. You know, any. Any devout soul who. Who loves the Lord and could play the guitar well and. And lead some beautiful songs, it would just, you know, it be the most wonderful thing.

[Matt Fradd]

Do you know, I once played Metallica for a communion hymn. I would like to apologize to Almighty God and all those who.

[Father Mark]

I'm sure he's been to confession. So the Lord, he's your sins. He remembers no more.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I could see someone saying, wow, the Lord can bless Metallica songs. It's like.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, well, he.

[Matt Fradd]

That's.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Fun times. Yeah. It's a wild time to be a Catholic. I know you for a While on your YouTube channel, and you can talk about this as much as you want to. We're kind of pointing to a lot of the crises in the church. And then I remember about five or six years ago, maybe. Maybe I've got the timeline wrong. Maybe it was three years ago. You kind of came out and went, I'm going to take a bit of a different direction. Do you want to talk about that?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, there was a point of crisis where, you know, it had to do. I don't like to name names, if you don't mind, but there was. There was a very prominent cardinal in the US who. It. It was obvious, you know, it was. It became known that. That he. He was just, you know, abusing seminarians, young priests for the longest time. And they kept promoting him, and they knew what he was doing, and they kept promoting him and promoting him. And at that same time, there was just more kind of revelations of a lot of impropriety of a certain type of. Among the clergy and even, you know, hierarchy of the Church. And a lot of us were wondering what the heck is going on. You see, we were always under the impression that the bishops were chosen from the best of the best priests, you know, and they have this questionnaire, this secret questionnaire I forget Otis Khalil put out, you know, and so they made sure that any priest who becomes a bishop is. I mean, he's obviously not perfect, you know, but he's exceptional. He's the Best of the best. And the process they go through to select the bishops is very thorough, very rigorous. So that when a bishop is selected again, he's very, very good. Of course he's not perfect. Of course he's human, you know, and struggles with, you know, weakness like every other human being. And then you would hope that among those bishops, those who would be promoted to become archbishops or have bigger dioceses or become cardinals, they too would be the best of the best of the best. That was the impression we all had. And with this crisis in the Church, there was kind of a lot of us, including priests, were wondering, like, okay, someone in the Vatican is supposed to have the job of promoting the good people and demoting the bad people. That's not complicated. You know, why was that not happening in this one particular case and now other cases? There was a number of weird things going on. And even Pope Benedict himself, so I'm not making this up, he commented how in Germany, in the semi seminaries, there were these homosexual cliques among the leaders of the seminary. You know, that's the Pope, Pope Benedict. I mean, he was Pope Benedict Emeritus. And so I think, you know, a lot of us were kind of not shy to say, not on my watch. You know, like, if there is something wrong with how things are working, I'm not going to stand back and just pretend everything's hunky dory. I don't care about whether or not I get fired. I don't care about whether or not I never get promoted again for the rest of my life. I don't care what people think about me. To me, a shepherd fights wolves. A shepherd who just stands back and watch wolves ravage the sheep is not a true shepherd. He's a hireling, you know. And so for me, it was just. It was just a time where, like, I don't care about anything. I don't care about losing my job. I don't care about what people think about me. I don't care about never getting promoted again. I'm not standing back and watching, you know, whatever the sheep ravage or the wolves ravage the sheep. So I spoke out. I spoke out boldly. I spoke out. I might have still been in, I guess maybe early 40s at the time. So I consider I was still kind of young and crazy. So it was, you know, kind of in that context. And a lot of people didn't like. Well, you know, I'll tell you something. A lot of people liked what I was saying. Some of the religious leaders didn't like what I was saying, but, oh, boy, there was countless Catholics, including a lot of priests, they were saying, thank you, thank you, thank you for speaking up, you know. And so, again, a lot of the faithful were very appreciative of my speaking out. And, yeah, I got a little bit of trouble for it. You know, maybe some of the things I said and how I said them. But then I guess I'm trying to think, like, the series of events, I guess there was some indication that there was some efforts to, I don't know what, you know, have some more transparency. And so, I mean, I guess I toned that down. I don't know. If there's something ridiculous, I'll still speak up. I mean, I've never felt like my mission in life is to kind of be the conservative watchdog for the Church. You know, like, some people, anything that happens, they're on it, they react to it, they complain about. I don't. Like. I have nothing against people who do that, but I don't want to do that. I don't want to be that person. But if there's something ridiculous going on because, you know, because of, you know, what I feel the Lord has called me to, I'll say something, you know, for love of the church. And I guess I've always looked up to say, Mother Angelica, you know, like, when a lot of this stuff started coming out, Mother Angelica had already gone home to the Lord. But I remember a number of people saying, oh, can you imagine if Mother Angelica were alive today? She would be scathing, you know, and so we appreciate people who have the, you know, the courage to speak out. It has to be done.

[Matt Fradd]

She had this deceptive facade of a. Of a gentle little nun, though. I think people. You know what I mean, they were. They were. But she was a lion. But I think she got away with a lot because people are like, oh, she's this gentle little nun, not realizing just how incredibly courageous she was. But continue.

[Father Mark]

No, I mean, that's. That's about it. I mean, I.

[Matt Fradd]

Did you. I mean, because, look, I. I have a. I have a small circle of people in my life that I really rely on, you know, because I've said things I've regretted on the show.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I've been to confession about them.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Our Lord's words about being judged on what we say is.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Makes me nervous.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And I really want to take that with sufficient seriousness while at the same time not letting it paralyze me, because I think there's, you know, maybe two ways we can fall off this boat. One is to just become arrogant and completely sort of defensive and unaware of our shortcomings when we're in this public light.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But the other is to allow the accuser to have us curled up in a corner and we're no longer evangelizing.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And the Lord has called imperfect people to evangelize. That's all he has after the Blessed Mother.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

So I have a small group of people in my life who I really depend on and I reach out to. And sometimes I say, you went too far there. Here's why, and thank you. There's even been times I've taken a video down or something like that, but. And I think that's probably healthy. And I'm sure a lot of people feel that way about their own things online or whatever. But, you know, you have religious superiors as well, so was that a humbling moment for you? And they were like, ah, change course a little here. Did you. Did you reflect and go, yeah, I think you were probably right here. Or was it, no, I think I am right, but I'll stop out of obedience.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. I don't know if it's a question of whether or not I was right. I think it's just more a question of, you know, how intense to be about something, how outspoken to be about something, how much to make something my concern, you know, So, I mean, that was a few years ago, so it's hard to kind of remember the details. I guess one of those things in life, you have to be who you are, you know, And I'm a bit of a scrapper, you know, if stuff. If I see something that's wrong, in particular, I'm a priest. And so, you know, the church is my bride. And if I see my bride, you know, not treated properly, or if I feel that someone needs to come to the defense of the bride, I will, you know, and that's not going to change. Like, I haven't decided, well, I'm not going to defend the honor of my bride anymore. I will always, with the grace of God, defend the honor of my bride. Now, again, how you do that is, you know, kind of the place of discernment. But. And again, I think, you know, any faithful priest gets that. And so, you know, when I have spoken out about some of the, you know, kind of silliness in the church, I get a lot of priests kind of reaching out to me, saying, thank you. Because a man who lays his life down for the church as a priest, it's because he loves the church and he wants to see her honor upheld.

[Matt Fradd]

What is your advice to Catholics who do find themselves scandalized, rightly or wrongly? Sometimes we can have a wrong interpretation of things. And they're looking to leave the church. I'm sure you've encountered people who want to be faithful to Christ, but maybe for their particular parish or the church more universal, they feel like they have to leave.

[Father Mark]

Well, I mean, my response, where else shall we go? You know, in the church, we have the Holy Eucharist. You know, in the church we have, you know, the sacraments. And the church has given us the sacred scriptures. And so. And the thing is, what person doesn't get the reality that the church is led by broken humans? And it's always been, there's always been a degree of scandal and crisis and nonsense going on. So it just seems, if anything. Now tell me if you've heard this during the time that we were referring to a few years ago, when there was just uncovered some really weird stuff that concerned us all, some of us, including yourself, you know, and others. We spoke out. We came to the defense of the church. We spoke boldly, you know, we were scrapping, you know, with our different platforms. So what I've heard is there was a lot of observers in the bleachers watching, thinking, these Catholics, they believe in the church, they're fighting for the church. Some of them, like they're, they're about to lose their jobs. You know, like they're, but they're, they're fighting boldly for the honor of the church. They're not leaving the church. They're, they're, they're just speaking out fearlessly, boldly, courageously. They're defending the Catholic Church. They're willing to die. And apparently a lot of people were drawn into the Catholic Church by the witness of Catholics defending the Catholic Church. Have you encountered that or heard about that?

[Matt Fradd]

Not specifically, but I have been edified at how many people right now seem to be flooding into the Catholic Church. And my thought has always been we don't help any prospective convert by pretending there isn't corruption big time. And I think there are some people in the church who would rather us. Don't talk about that. Just focus on what's beautiful. 100%, we have to focus on what's beautiful. And yet we can't pretend that these Protestants or atheists who are looking into the church aren't aware of the infighting.

[Father Mark]

That's it.

[Matt Fradd]

So it seems to me that just like with the sex abuse scandal, we had to Go. Yeah. This is horrendous. Yeah, we had. I think should be more angry.

[Father Mark]

Exactly.

[Matt Fradd]

Than those outside of the church. And if they see us defending the indefensible or downplaying it or trying to redirect it, that's not okay. So my thought has always been, please come, we need you aboard the Bark of Peter. Things are on fire, but things are good. And this is a beautiful time to be a Catholic. And we need you. You have been made for such a time as this. Come join us. But you were hearing from people specifically who said.

[Father Mark]

Oh, yeah, no, I mean, people were, you know, just commenting or. I was hearing about people who, again, they were watching on. And it was also just this new phenomena of social media. It's a whole new phenomena, which, by the way, we do have a lot of people entering the Catholic Church. I wonder if it's. Because now we don't just have four or five mainstream media outlets that everyone's listening to all the time. There's tons of voices out there. And if someone wants to look at religion or spirituality, go online and hear people's arguments and. And I wonder if, because the Catholic Church is the true religion, because the Catholic Church, everything she teaches is true, that people are able to hear the reason for being Catholic, the evidence, the arguments for the Catholic faith, and they're applying their own reason and they're realizing, wait a minute, Catholicism, that's real. Like, that's the true religion. And that's why, you know, people are joining the Catholic Church. So, for example, say someone from another religion. Well, if you're in another religion, how do you get the opportunity to learn about other religions? Well, now it's easy. Just scroll through. I'm not on TikTok, but just scroll through TikTok. You might get some, you know, Christian or Catholic, making an argument for Christ, and you might be like, huh.

[Matt Fradd]

You might type Catholic into YouTube and find your good channel. Right?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Or you're a good channel. Yeah. So I think.

[Matt Fradd]

No, that's right. And to your point earlier, what's very edifying is when you think of those big voices who are kind of rising above the fray, in my estimation, they tend to be solid Orthodox voices. You have Bishop Robert Barron, Father Mike Schmitz, Trent Horn, Father Mark Mary, Ascension presents your good work and things like this. Yeah. Like, that's cool. I don't know. And I've said this. I think this is a real sign of hope. I don't know of. Maybe I know of one YouTube, successful YouTube channel.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

That I think is muddying the waters as far as sexual morality in the church. Yeah. I'm not going to mention names, but I, I don't know of heretics who are promoting all sorts of wickedness.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Who are just skyrocketing on the YouTube.

[Father Mark]

And, and the one, the YouTube. On YouTube, the, the one voice who you think might be muddying the waters if, if he or she open it still leaves room for dialogue. So again, a thinking person, A thinking person can sort through, like, even the big thing now is the legacy media, the mainstream, the huge outlets that were so influential, they're starting to crash. A lot of them totally. Because, because they were pathetic, you know, and like, should I say this? Like, up in Canada, we have CBC. They don't leave their comments open on YouTube. Wow.

[Matt Fradd]

What does that say?

[Father Mark]

Monologue. They're not open to hearing. I, I, I, okay, let me, let me correct that. They don't leave their comments open on a lot of their videos. And sometimes they're, they're touching on, you know, kind of a contentious issue, but they're not letting the people speak. That's not, that's not going to help them. Where you got the Joe Rogan types who, who just, you know, like, kind of spewing out common sense. God forbid. Just spewing like. I don't listen to everything Joe Rogan says. I just catch little clips. I'm not endorsing everything about Joe Rogan. But the point is we're living at a time where there's the rise of common sense and a person can now make their own judgments about what to listen to and what's true. I follow a lot of different news sources around the world, and I love world news. And I, I find it remarkable how. Yeah, you have a lot of these, you know, older big news source channels. They're sticking to that narrative.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

And you can tell that, oh, they're not gonna, they're not gonna last too long.

[Matt Fradd]

It's like they're trying, it feels like they're trying to make the weld in that image. It's like we, there was a concerted effort to tamp down common sense that men can actually have babies and so on and so forth. Marriage can be this or that. There was a woman in California I saw online who apparently, quote, unquote, married a train station. I think there's a woman in Portland who apparently married a building. You know, like, and, and there's this, There seems like this diabolical effort on the part of mainstream media to, to tamp down anyone who would object to that nonsense. And it's just become increasingly difficult for them to do that. I think some countries have an easier job doing it. I was just in Australia, for example. There's a lot of heroic, beautiful people in Australia, just as I know there is in Canada. And yet there seems like. It feels like most of the news outlets are all singing from the same sheet of music.

[Father Mark]

Except Sky News.

[Matt Fradd]

Except Sky News, which from my vantage point, seems to be talking almost primarily about American politics. Although I'm sure they speak about Australia, Australian politics as well. But, yeah, I mean, the rise of Sky News, that's an example. I mean, I don't know. I would presume that most of their listenership comes from North America, but perhaps I'm wrong, but there does. I remember I was just in Australia two weeks ago with my wife, and we're watching the news, and I saw them talking about a particular group and demonizing them and writing them off, these young men. And I just thought, I don't believe you. They didn't let the people speak. There was no fair assessment of their position. They just rip them off. And I thought, it's possible. It's possible that what you're saying about them is true. And if it is, I also condemn it. Yeah, but I don't know anymore. I don't actually believe you. I think you're lying to me. And I think a lot of people have felt that way. And now it feels like the people's voices is coming to the fore. I think the downside of this might be that we begin to question every mainstream narrative, like the Holocaust and things like this, right? Where it's like. And the moon landing, all sorts of things we're now like. It just feels like we have to question everything we have ever believed. Maybe gravity isn't a thing. Who knows what that is?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, Yeah, I. I would say, like, that. The comments section. I love the comments section because to me, like, say, whatever, flat earth, you know, moon landing and all that, when you let the general public kind of give their opinion and there's the ranking of what comments are liked and all that, I find those. The comments section is decent at kind of calling BS and kind of, you know, balancing things out. You know, like, sometimes you'll get a news piece and it might be 90% good, but 10%'s a little off. You'll catch it in the comments or something. Another example is, I remember, I think it was Australia, this weird, big, black, odd ball just washes up on shore and they're like, what is this? So there's people like the authorities, police showed up in hazmat suits with the, you know, checking for, you know, radiation. So they put this on the news. Comment. That's an H28, boy. Made in Russia. Here's a picture of it. Ah, Boom. That settles that. You know, so they didn't really need to send like that. Someone knew exactly what that ball was and gave a link to see what that ball was. And so, I mean, I'm not saying the comment section is perfect, but I just.

[Matt Fradd]

No, sometimes, I mean, very often, I think the most inflammatory comments get the clicks. Humility rarely goes viral.

[Father Mark]

Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

So I think this, I think both.

[Father Mark]

I think is okay.

[Matt Fradd]

But even if I'm right and I think over time, if you let people speak.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I think whenever you tell someone, they can't think something or say something.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

It just, it gains strength and momentum in a way that you might not want it to. Whereas if you let it out into the open.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Antiseptic. The antiseptic light of truth.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, that's a. It's a different world. It's a new world where like every. Every year there's. We're making leaps. You know, I don't lifter leaps forward, but things are changing. You know, I'm on a big kick about trying to get the young men to get out in the wilderness. Eh.

[Matt Fradd]

I've seen you. Tell me, tell me about it.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, so it flows out of a number of things. One of the things that flows out of is we're all spending way too much time on our iPhones or iPads or just, you know, connected to social media. And when I say this, it's never in condemnation of people doing, you know, spending too much time online because I have a problem. Like, I. It's so easy to just what's. What's new on my phone or whatever. And so. And also I have a great love for the desert fathers, you know, and I have a great love for the outdoors. And so one of the things I've been kind of feel the Lord has been putting on my heart is to just challenge the young men to try to get some time alone in the wilderness, but specifically unplugged. And so you leave your phone, you leave your technology behind. And I came up with a specific challenge. It's three days. So take three days, leave the technology behind and go out into the wilderness. And it's based on the example of our Lord Jesus, who spent 40 days in the wilderness and John the Baptist who spent time in the wilderness, and Elijah, who's out in the wilderness, and St. Anthony of the desert, who spent time in the wilderness. And even up until. You know, one thing that really kind of encouraged me to kind of keep talking about this is St. John Paul II. As pope, he would sometimes be brought to a little cabin in kind of some wilderness hills, and he would tell his security detail, he'd say, I'm sleeping outside tonight. And he would take a woolen blanket and he would sleep under the stars as pope. And I remember I was reflecting on is thinking, like, what's up with that? And I just really felt like he had a sense of kind of soulfulness like that. He knew that. But in all the formality and structure of Vatican life, at one level, he could kind of lose his soul if he didn't kind of stay grounded just with, you know, earth and, you know, simplicity and even austerity. And so, again, he would sometimes go to the hills, and they say it really made the security nervous. Like, what, you know, how was the Pope last night? Well, we think he was good. He was out sleeping in the. Under the stars with just a woolen blanket. But I just feel that our culture today, we're just missing something just very real and human and soulful. Now, I'm not saying going out into the wilderness is the only way of experiencing this. You're close to the beach here in Jacksonville. You take a walk on a beach when you're kind of trying to process something, and you're basically walking on the edge of eternity, because the ocean is an image of God and of eternity. You know, creation reflects the Creator. And so there's something about walking, maybe bare feet on the sand along the ocean. It does something to your soul that you just can't get, you know, in your living room or, you know, sometimes even in a chapel or something. I mean, obviously, there's a special, you know, grace to being in the presence of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. You know, don't want to take away from that at all. But there is something like, we're human. And Adam and Eve, they were put in a garden to till the soil, you know, to be close to, you know, creation and nature. And so. And I've done a lot of that over the years. You know, I've spent a lot of time alone in the wilderness. And I love it. You know, it does something for me, and I think it might be, you know, a remedy for, you know, especially the young men, you know, like, guys, you know, you can't be glued to your social media all the time. Like that's just going to rot you in the inside. And also your soul, your soul is longing for something else, something more, something deeper, something more real. And I just think that getting out into nature and just doing real stuff is a real, you know, remedy for a lot of the, the ache, the, the angst, the, the illness, the deceit disease we're experiencing today.

[Matt Fradd]

I want to tell you about Hallow, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hallow.com Matt Frad sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time you can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com Matt Frad I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music including my lo Fi hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hallowed.com mattfrad the link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent you can play little bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com mattfrad Couldn't agree more. Now you're a big pustinia guy. Yeah. You have a cabin. Could you tell us about what is a pistonia first of all and tell us about this cabin and how often you frequent it and what else, what that's like?

[Father Mark]

Well, Postinia that comes from the community up in based in Canada called Madonna House and their foundress, Catherine Dougherty.

[Matt Fradd]

It's a Russian word which is desert.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. And so that was her challenge. Her challenge was to spend 24 hours alone in a little cabin or a little room or you know, a quiet place and bring nothing but a bible and a loaf of bread and let God speak to you. And so it's basically you're like, here I am, Lord. And a lot of people have, you know, embrace that challenge. And some people make it a regular part of their life. You know, they might do one a year, one every three months or even one a month or whatever. So that's called Pustinia. And yeah, so that's kind of very much along the lines of, you know, what I'm kind of calling people to. I guess for me there's also the component of doing the kind of wilderness, you know, labor, manual labor type stuff that's good for the soul. I'll give an example. When I was first ordained, see, as a priest, you're supposed to do a five day. It's called a canonical retreat. You're supposed to take five days, go away somewhere. It's supposed to be, you know, mostly in silence. It's a silent. It's meant ideally to be a silent retreat. So when I was first ordained by the typical thing is you find some monastery or convent or just a quiet place, you get a room, you know, you do your thing. So I did maybe two or three canonical retreats at say a religious house where you get your room, you're told what the schedule is for the meals. And usually there's a little grounds you can walk around. So I did that. Usually by day two, I'm starting to get kind of restless and even a little depressed, you know, just kind of, you know. So I remember one year I said, okay, this year for my canonical retreat, I'm going to try going to my cabin in the woods. I had a little 12 by 12 little wee cabin along a river, middle of nowhere. And part of it, it's off grid, no running water, no electricity, no nothing. So you got to go to the river to get your water, you got to make a fire to cook your meals, you got to chop wood, you know, you take a bath in the river, all of that kind of thing. So I did that like, you know, inspired by the desert fathers trying to pray, spiritual reading, celebrate mass. And I remember the experience was, this is so awesome at so many levels. It was so different than just being given a little room with a bed and a table and saying, here, you know, do your prayer thing. And there was a physical, but also just like there's something about going to the river, getting some water, putting it over a fire, boiling it so you can make a cup of tea, and then, you know, cutting up some wood. Like there's something about doing those things, especially as in, in a rhythm day after day to stay alive, that you just feel like I was made to do this. Like this feels so normal. And because it feels so normal, it's life giving, like it's fulfilling, you know. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I think I'm onto something here. Like, this is, this is being Human at a level that I've never experienced before. And I could do this for weeks and maybe months. And so since then, I find myself getting out on a regular basis. Now I have the 12 by 12 cabin that we built when I was first 13. It got ruined by a flood. It was on a river. And so we built another bigger one, my brother and I and then. And I also a buddy of mine builds hunting stands. So he also built me a little wee cabin up high. It's like 10ft high. So that's a place where I go for more deeper solitude because the new cabin does have water and solar and all that, but the little cabin is just kind of four walls and I love that stuff. And like I said, not just kind of being there, but I just love the work you do, but always in the context of prayer. So, again, inspired by the Desert fathers and the monastic tradition, it's something I would love to see in particular young men experience. Now, it's not easy. It's a battle to thrive in solitude. But to me, if a man's willing to take on that challenge, he will find a level of peace and fulfillment that this world can't give. And the thing is, it's in the tradition again, the Old Testament, Our Lord Jesus himself. Not only did Jesus do 40 days, but it says a number of times Jesus went off to a deserted place and there he prayed. And in other places, he spent the whole night on a mountain in prayer. And the thing people see that they can just see intellectually, like, oh, yeah, Jesus, you know, was, you know, there's symbolism to that. Yeah, maybe there's symbolism, you know, it's a sign of something. But the thing is, he knew what it was like. It's getting dark now and he's alone and he's on a mountain and there's animals, you know, roaming around. Do you know what that feels like? There's something at a human level about being alone in the wilderness that's more than just up in the head, you know, it's a human experience with the cosmos, you know, and our Lord Jesus experienced that. And then, like I said, John the Baptist and then St. Anthony and St. Benedict, all these saints. St. Francis of Assisi, he received a stigmata towards the end of his life. He just felt he wasn't conformed enough to Christ. So he went to. Was it Mount Everno or something like that?

[Matt Fradd]

I was just there.

[Father Mark]

Oh, really? And he was alone there. He had a brother on the other side of ravine who I think checked up on him. On a regular basis. But he, at the end of his life, he felt he needed to be alone in the wilderness on a mountain. And so to me, there's something as human beings, and I would say in a particular way as men, that we need to experience the call of the wild because there's a spiritual dimension, the soul. Something happens to the soul that can't happen. I don't think in civilization, you know, there's something very earthly, very real, very deep, profound. And so that's my challenge to the young men. Leave your technology behind and go out into the wilderness and experience that.

[Matt Fradd]

That's beautiful. I want to talk about this for a little longer, so let's do that. I like what you said about the five day silent retreat that you took. I did something similar. I took an eight day at a monastery. And it was just what you said, here's the kitchen, here's where you get your coffee. There's something unnatural about that because I think part of the reason we men get kind of irritated and frustrated and then maybe condemn ourselves for it is because. Well, no, what you're doing is still on that. You need to be doing something.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Don't just sit in your room and then go to the chapel.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Chop firewood, fetch the water.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Cook the food.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I agree with you that that's a, I think a necessary component to this sort of thing. All right, well, we need to start something. Well, how do. I mean, when you encourage men to do this and they say, well, that's great, but how do I do that? Where's a cabin I can rent to do this? What are you saying?

[Father Mark]

Okay, so first of all, the challenge. Maybe before we say that too, listen, there's times in life where you're exhausted, you're totally spent. There's nothing better than going to a monastery, having a room and having some quiet time. So praise God for the monasteries that offer that we need that. I need that sometimes. So not taking away from the wonderful blessing of a retreat center or a monastery. So for me, it's men over 18. So I'm not telling a 14 year old to go off into the bush, you know, over 18, I don't want to get sued, you know, so that at the age of 18, that's how old St. Anthony was and many other saints, you know, 18, they went off. So once you're 18, you're a man. You need to prove your manhood, not. Not to others, but to yourself. I know today I kind of winked at you because you're not Supposed to say that you prove your manhood, you know, and so. But I'm saying, no, no, you do need to prove your manhood to yourself. You know, you're 18 now. You need to show yourself that you're enough of a man to be able to let go of your technology and figure out how to cook some meals to stay alive for three days in the bush. And I also always say, please, prepare, be safe, be prudent, don't do anything stupid. And I also give the young men permission. Not that they need my permission, but I say, listen, it's okay to send your family a daily I'm still alive text. So when I put out this challenge, please, you know, be prudent, be wise. So, young man, you're 18. Father Mark is telling you you need to prove your manhood, go out into the wilderness like Jesus and John the Baptist. If you don't have any experience at all and no access to wilderness, you have two options. One is just to talk around, like, talk to some guys who might be maybe hunters or have, you know, access to land, or do that type of thing and say, hey, like, I. I want to spend some time in the wilderness. Can you set me up? Can you help me out? Can you give me a place? Can you give me some direction? So that's. That's one option. If you don't know anyone who can help you out in that way, the simplest thing is just go to a park and maybe an off season when it's not busy, you know, and just book a campsite, you know, for three days. Or like, sometimes guys ask, well, does it have to be in a tent? And the answer for the particular challenge I'm putting out doesn't have to be in a tent. It can be like, some hunt camps are very rustic and simple. Some people also have a very simple cottage that is quiet, it's remote again. There's not a massive big screen TV or whatever. That can work too. The point is, if you feel drawn to this, ask the Lord, say, lord, kind of help me to find a place. And like everything in life, sometimes it might take a few tries. You might get a campsite, get a tent, and I don't know what, you can't get through two days because you weren't properly prepared or whatever. Fine. That's life. Go regroup, try it again. And now, you know, other people do have access to wilderness. And so, you know, some of the guys I've challenged, like, they. Again, they. They do have, you know, property or they're hunters. So they have access. And then for me, I challenge the men. Try to make it a defining discipline in your life. So this is something you do as a man once a year. You have your 72 hours, you go into the wilderness and you know how to do that, you're fine. I like to tease the Canadians. I say, listen, a real Canadian man can survive in the bush for three days. You know, like, that's. And I think the Australians too, which, by the way, a lot of Australians follow my channel and they like the outdoor stuff too, because of the outback and also the walkabout challenge. You know, it's kind of a rite of passage. I encourage learning about the Desert Fathers because the Desert Fathers are a hoot. They're absolutely delightful. You know, they're. They're very challenging and.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Wouldn't it be neat if you did a shout out on one of your videos inviting Catholics around the States or wherever else who had a cabin on their property or who were willing to put a simple postinia on their property, and you could come up with a map of these different places where people could go online, pay the money to rent the place, sign a waiver so you're not sued. It'd be cool if we did something like that, don't you think?

[Father Mark]

I thought of something like that. For me, the ideal is that every parish has a hermitage. So, you know, there's a place where you can go to be alone.

[Matt Fradd]

You know, there's no way a parish is going to take on that kind of risk.

[Father Mark]

I know. Now that's the problem.

[Matt Fradd]

That's why I'm thinking like men who have acres of land. Like, yeah, I'll throw up one of those wooden shed things on my property. And it will. That'll be part of this network of postinias.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And men could go on your website and they could look up a postinia in their area and book three days.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd love something like that. I mean, the sad thing is in a world of, you know, lawsuits and litigation, all that. I know, everything is complicated. Like one, one option, two is if you had a group of men who, who were kind of just said, okay, let's. Let's, you know, say 25 of us each pool in a thousand bucks. Let's. Let's get a. An acre of land.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

In the middle of nowhere for whatever, 20 grand. Let's put a little shack on it and then it's our shared use.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm gonna give someone a mission in life right now. Let's start. Not airbnb, but, like, airportinia.com someone go buy that URL and. And, you know, yeah, maybe it isn't prudent to have a priest running this, you know, because you don't want people to get mauled by bears and it come back to haunt the companions of the cross. But someone could run this. Someone could do the legal stuff. You sign a waiver, you pay your money, you show up. That would be amazing because I think a lot of people go on Airbnb and they just look for, like, a remote cabin, and they do have those sorts of things.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Airpostinia.com I want that. 24 hours after this episode airs. I expect someone to have bought that and to be running it. That could be such a beautiful thing for souls. Exodus 90 should think about buying that. That would be amazing. I love that. I was talking to Father Ken Barker. You know who that is?

[Father Mark]

Not sure.

[Matt Fradd]

He's the founder of the missionaries. No, no, that's you. He's the founder of. No, no, that is not you. Missionaries of God's Love.

[Father Mark]

Okay. Is that Australia?

[Matt Fradd]

It is Australian. Ken Barker's an Australian, wonderful priest. I love him dearly. I've had him on the show. And he's similar to Father Bob Bedard in that both of them were blessed by the Charismatic Renewal and it started Communities of Men. So in Australia, there's a community of awesome men. And anyway, when he was on the show, he told me that every month before he plans his calendar, I think he has an overnight or two away on a retreat. And it's just the case that you've got to tell your schedule what to do or somebody else will tell you what your schedule will be.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And so I love this idea of once a year doing this. Maybe once every two months, you know, getting a couple of nights away. I like this. Yeah.

[Father Mark]

It also, it sets men's sights on something else and something out of this world, something of the kingdom. Like, again, in life, we can have all kinds of goals or priorities or things that preoccupy us. And again, I think in our. Our social media world, where we're so kind of glued to our screenshots, you gotta have something else to aim for. Now, I know some guys, they do aim. You know, they have educational ambitions or work ambitions or they're trying to, you know, learn skills or sports or whatever like that. That's good. It's good to have something like that. But I, you know, I think the thing of Putting that challenge out, it gives a. Like, for me, when I had my conversion as a teenager, had someone, you know, especially particularly an older kind of Catholic man, said, hey, if you're, if you're going to follow the Lord, you might want to consider going out to the wilderness like he did. And, you know, the challenge is, do you think you could spend 72 hours, three days alone in the world? It's like, for me, I would have liked that. I like a challenge. I like a specific challenge, you know. And so, like I said, that's kind of part of the vision is giving young men, especially who have a zeal, like, what do I do? Like, what do I do now There's a fire. Like, I know I'm supposed to, I guess, evangelize. I'm supposed to study. What do I do? And I do believe that young men who are fervent for the Lord, I do believe they do need to imitate Christ and spend time alone. And I do believe the ideal is that some of that time alone is in creation, in the wilderness, you know, in the desert, whatever wilderness you have close by. And like I said, I think there's something that our souls yearn for that can only be satisfied by the creation that God created. Like, for me, when I'm alone in the wilderness, I feel like a kid in the playground. God, the Father built for me, you know, he made this. And again, whether it's, you know, along a remote beach somewhere or in the Arctic, you know, in the snow, or the Australian outback, like, this is our daddy made all of this. And it's beautiful. And there's something, you know, sublime about being in creation. And there's, there's a human experience of, again, the wind, the sun, the sound of crunching snow, or the, you know, moving the greenery to get through the bush. Like, there's just something about that that we, it's our environment that we were made for, and, and it keeps us connected. And again, if it's done in the presence of God, to me, it's sublime and it's good.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. An analogy I'm thinking of is if all you did was eat junk food, fast food and soda, and then you started eating whole foods, you would go, oh, my gosh, this is what food is. This is how I'm supposed to feel. And it's almost like what you're saying is this is what it does to the soul. It kind of wakes you up. And I do think that technology is like a drug technology. I, I, I'm using that In a very limited modern sense, like you are perhaps of the Internet. The phone, the screen, it, it drugs us.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And I make a practice of taking a, of giving up my phone and computer and Apple Watch on Fridays and getting a Monday.

[Father Mark]

Oh, really?

[Matt Fradd]

Something I'm doing more and more. I just did it this past weekend. I actually have a safe in my, in my bedroom where I, I put it in and then I give my key to my daughter. Like, give it to me Monday. If I ask for it sooner. I need you to shame me. And you know, it's, it's, it's so wonderful. So obviously this is different to what you're saying, but my mind just starts to slow down. You know, there's anxiety. At first I need to respond, I need to email, I need to tweet.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And then you realize you don't need to do any of those things. You can just rest and something happens. Right. Where I can now read, I can now contemplate. I can now potter about. Yeah, it's wonderful. You know, if people can't do it for an entire weekend, I really recommend people trying to make a practice of that at least one day a week, maybe every Sunday, Saturday night, give your phone away. Give everything. You can access the Internet away.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Because we live in this constant state of, did someone reach out to me? Do I need to respond to be in that state continually. I need to respond.

[Father Mark]

I need to.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. And when, when you disconnect from technology, like for me, because I'm embarrassed to say, and I, the thing is, I do try to compartmentalize my time online, you know, like I, I, you know, I tried to not be online all day, although I could, you know, again, you got news, you got people text messaging, you got check up on emails, you got, you know, whatever, the YouTube industry, all that. But the point is, is when I disconnect, I could feel something in my brain kind of toning down. You know, like you feel like after a day without technology, you feel different. Two days after technology, you feel more different. And you can't help but to think like, I think what I'm, how I'm feeling now, it's probably better than the buzz, you know, or the distraction.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. And by day three, I find there's now anxiety. Having to re. Enter Internet land.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

I don't want to.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Day one, I kind of want to. Day two, I'm anxious and maybe want to. Day three or four, I'm like, I Don't want to go back there.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Matt Fradd]

And. But then there's also the. The quick pleasure of it that I do want. Yeah. You know, I do want to listen to that podcast. I do want to, like, send that text message to that friend or what have you.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But I think it's really important that we. We detach ourselves from the. From the teat of the Internet. My gosh, we're all just so hooked on it. And it is like a drug. It'd be like if you were drunk constantly and then sobered up and you're like, oh, this is how life's supposed to be for many of us. Because I know that you can use the Internet responsibly and that people do that. I understand that. But I think for a lot of us, we know the experience of it feeling more like a drug, and then you slowly come off of it, and just like you in the wilderness, you're like, this is how I'm supposed to be.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. And in particular, again, when. When we're dealing with young men who've encountered the Lord and they really want to follow the Lord Jesus wholeheartedly, you know, they're asking, like, how do I live as a Catholic, you know, devoted to the Lord Jesus. Again, my response would be that you do need to experience solitude, like the Lord Jesus and all the, you know, many other saints I mentioned, and you do need to experience detachment from the devices. And so, again, I don't present it as. I mean, I do present it as optional because I'm not the type of person to say, everyone needs to do exactly this. I mean, we're all different. You know, you do what the Lord has called you to do. But I feel that, you know, young men, this is something they really need to consider.

[Matt Fradd]

Well, we know we need it. I think any young man who listens to you right now is like, yes, right. You don't even have to be that convincing. You don't have to tell people what to do. We know that That's. That's what we want.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

We just need airpostinia.com to be established so that we can then just. I did this with my son Peter, who I love. I rented a Airbnb up in Ohio, and it was a very simple cabin, one bedroom cabin. It had a rain tank, which is how I had running water, but there was a bucket under the sink to catch the refuse.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

We had a wood fire stove, and we just spent a couple of days just. Just chilling. Yeah, it was so cool. And you saying this to me, I'm like, why haven't I done that again? Yeah, yeah, we know it's good for us. Why don't we do what's good for us?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, we're idiots. Maybe. So, again, that's the specific challenge. If they're. Again, young men are saying, hey, give me a challenge. That's it. Three days alone in the wilderness, 72 hours. No technology. You can send your family a daily I'm still alive text. I wrote a little book called In His Zone. So when I was first ordained, I had the brilliant idea. See, I wanted to experience some deeper solitude, and I also wanted to put some of the wisdom of the Desert fathers to practice. So I had this brilliant idea to build a raft and stay on the raft for eight days.

[Matt Fradd]

I remember this.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. And so that little book kind of. This is a short little book, but it kind of summarizes the spirituality of being alone in the wilderness, you know, and it's concise, and I tell the story of my eight days. And so I'm not trying to sell a book here, but if a person, if a young man wants to kind of catch the vision or kind of get a sense, like, what is he talking about? I talk about the Desert Fathers because the Desert Fathers, they had to give practical wisdom to being in the desert, because it's more than just reading the Bible and saying prayers. They say the first demon you encounter when you set up camp in the desert, it's not the demon of lust. It's not the demon of, you know, whatever. It's not a dragon appearing to you. They say it's the demon of laziness. As soon as you set up, all of a sudden you're like, yeah, what do I do now? And so they teach about, you have to come up with a rhythm. If you keep the rhythm, the rhythm will keep you. And also in terms of food, like, the first time I tried not. Well, one of the first times I tried extended time in the wilderness. This is embarrassing. I got the bright idea I didn't need to bring any food. I heard about people doing, like, a fasting. We just didn't eat anything, so I didn't bring any food. I almost starved to death, you know.

[Matt Fradd]

How many days were you there?

[Father Mark]

I think I was. Well, I was supposed to stay longer. So were you dropped off or did you drop. Well, I worked at a herb farm that had a pustinho. And it was before I had to go back to the seminary. So I think I might have brought. Booked five days So I kind of stayed there in the pustinha, no food. And I think by day, I don't know, the second night, I was starving and they had a little garden. So in the middle of the night, like a thief in the night, I went to their garden to see the woods, baby. Yeah, yeah. I went to the garden to see if I could find some food. And I was so afraid that their dog would come out. And the dog did come out, and it kind of came up to me and jumped on me. Didn't bark, just jumped. And I knew its name. I was trying to be nice. I. I felt like a thief stealing food because I was hungry. Very interesting experience, by the way. See, that's part of the whole thing of getting into the wilderness. You need to know what it's like realizing that I can't build this fire because it's too windy. I might be hungry tonight. But that's besides the point. So the desert fathers say, listen, yes, fasting's good, but don't be stupid, be wise. So their thing was, a lot of desert fathers would only eat every second day. But a lot of the fathers say, listen, eat once a day at the end of the day. That's fine. Don't overdo it. So the point is, when you go into the wilderness, the wisdom is, obviously, don't just bring whatever pops and chips and junk food, but get some decent food and eat well. That's part of what prevents you from going crazy in the bushes. So basic. And, you know, I don't recommend people necessarily eat just one meal a day if they're not used to that. Back then, I think that was more common. So again, don't be lazy. Come up with a rhythm every day. Eat well. You have to work. Like, you could summarize, like if a young man says, okay, well, if I just go out alone in the wilderness for three days, what do I do? You could summarize by saying, just go work for three days. That's what keeps you kind of from. From going crazy, is applying yourself. And in the context of the work, you're talking to God, you're experiencing his presence. And obviously you'll have your prayer times and all the other things, so. So work is an essential. Now, again, I mean, maybe, maybe a person could do hiking or other things instead. But the point is, if you just go and pitch a tent and think you're going to sit in the tent for three days, you'll go nuts. And maybe it's good for you to experience that, you know, again, and so the, the little book it's called In His Zone, about my eight days on the raft. I go through seven principles for thriving in solitude. Yeah. So that I'm, I'm not just sending, like, if guys are looking for, like, wisdom, that's good.

[Matt Fradd]

No, the, the rhythm thing is really helpful.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

When I went on my eight day silent retreat, I took two different books with me. I had this, this habit of waking up having a coffee cigar in the morning, saying my morning prayers, my night prayers. And I would say by day five, I was, I felt I was embarrassed, but I was kind of desperate for human interaction. I was like, please talk to me, somebody.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

But, yeah. Okay, so how did you do that on the raft? What was your rhythm? On the raft?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. So on the raft, I, it was funny. Like back then I was really idealistic about stuff. No watch. I didn't have a clue what time it was. I said, because, you know, people talk about just being one with nature. So I said, there's the sun. I can, you know, I'll get up basically when it starts to be light out and I'll go to bed. When the mosquitoes come out, which is right before the sun goes down, you can't be outside, you know, like, you have to go into your tent because the mosquitoes are vicious.

[Matt Fradd]

So you would come off your tent, come off your rock.

[Father Mark]

I had a tent on the wrap.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, a little, little. I had to like you.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah.

[Father Mark]

Ontario would come out just feasting on the mosquitoes because they were thick, you know, but they, they wouldn't come. And that's part of the reason I was on a raft is because a raft, I could get it out into the water and as soon as you get a breeze, there's no bugs. But once the, once it gets dark, doesn't matter where you're on, on the lake, the mosquitoes come out. Yeah. So my rhythm was, I'd get up and I would celebrate mass first thing in the morning because there'd be hardly most likely time for no wind. It's hard to celebrate mass on a raft if it's windy. So I get out as the right.

[Matt Fradd]

Mass on a rough period, let alone being windy. And. Yeah, shopping.

[Father Mark]

So I'd get up, I celebrate mass, I take some prayer time, and then eventually I'd have breakfast. And again, making breakfast is a little more work because I had a little firebox. So, you know, you get some water out of the lake. 12 by 12.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. I built, you know, those big blue barrels they use at concerts for garbage and that. Yeah, I think. I don't know if I got them free or 15 bucks each. I think I used six of those. I got a bunch of lumber from a guy who's got a lumber mill, built it myself. And I did have a little two horse gas mortar on the back of it because I had to park it sheltered from the wind. And the wind changes. So at night if the wind. I'd always find a sheltered bay and I would anchor to like there was these logs floating, you know, because I didn't want to be caught in a storm like the wrong side of a lake in a storm. And I also see the most. It's interesting, a lot of people know this, but not everyone. The most dangerous thing out on a boat is the sun. If you're in the open sun all day, the sun. The sun is the first thing that will. Will just drive you crazy or that that's hardest to handle. So I had to have the raft a lot of the, you know, close to a shoreline where the sun was giving some. Some shade, you know. So I would kind of try to think the rhythm. Like I know part of the rhythm was I'd take a swim every afternoon and at one point I would get some. I would get off the raft to gather wood for my fire. And you know, between cooking meals I did a lot. You know, Ralph Martin's book, Fulfillment of All Desire. It's about that thick. Read the whole thing. Yeah, I had a lot of time for reading and just, you know, just.

[Matt Fradd]

Excellent book by the way. People should get it.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a good time. I did it three summers in a row. The last summer, I think I did 11 days on the raft. Yeah, I loved it.

[Matt Fradd]

Did you ever encounter boats going by and wondering what you were doing or.

[Father Mark]

I think there was just. Of the three summers I did it, I think there was just because it was a very remote lake. It was. It was hard to. To get to even with a little four by four and the fishing wasn't good in it. If I would have gone to a lake with good fishing, there would have been fishermen. I was going at an off season where the fishing wasn't good. But there in the three years, there was one day where I saw a guy put his boat on, he had his son and they were motored around for maybe an hour or two on the other side and then left. So that was the only.

[Matt Fradd]

And you brought enough food with you?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. And again, that's. That's to me part of being a man is you can. You can pack up a bunch of food and go live in the wilderness for a few days. Like a Canadian man. Like, to me, Canadian. Canadian men should be able to, like, say. Say you're, you're. You're a man in Canada. And I don't know what, you know, work gets shut down because, you know, I don't know what the. The, the computer blows up and it's like, okay, guys, you got the week off. And you're like, I don't know what to do. Well, you should be able to say, I'll grab a few things, I'll go in the bush for a few days. A Canadian man should be able to do that, no problem. And so that's why I say, hey, once you turn 18, learn that skill, you know? And again, if you're a man of God, you're imitating Christ and you can encounter God in a way and also encounter your own humanity, you know, in a way that you just can't encounter in other settings, you know? Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So the rhythm, okay, so you would wake up, you'd celebrate holy mass, you would read books.

[Father Mark]

So the main work was. Oh, I also recreated. So. So I snorkeled every day. I tried to catch fish. There was fish in the lake. It's just impossible to catch. I fished all week, all the time. I had lines out. Like a line out. It's legal. It sounds legal. You just put. And the thing is, I remember, like, some places the trout were surfacing over and over and over again. But the thing is, I was there. I think I did it in July or August. It was July, I think. The lake is so full of bugs and life that it's like you're trying to catch a fish and the fish is at a buffet. All you can eat, buffet. There's so much food in the lake for the fish. Your worm just doesn't look appetizing to them, you know? And you could see, like, there was these little micro, like, tiny shrimp. Like, the lake was full of these little. I don't know what they were. And I'm thinking, like, I'm sure the trout are just. Just feasting on these like you like. So I didn't catch any fish. I would have loved to catch fish. But the flip side is that's why I had the whole lake to myself. Like, guys, they see when. When guys start catching fish on a lake, the word gets out and everyone goes to the lake. When no one's catching fish on a lake, word gets out. You Know, like, yeah, say the guy who went with his son, he probably told his bodies. Yeah. When I went to the lank and catch anything, like, okay.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. And so what's your mindset like after how many days did you spend each year?

[Father Mark]

The first time was eight, I think. The second time was eight again. And the last time I think was 11.

[Matt Fradd]

What's that like? Re. You know, I. I know relatively speaking, eight days isn't that long. Okay, what's it like?

[Father Mark]

Re. Enter question. In all honesty, lifechanging. Stuff I was struggling with before, not struggling with again, just. Just a. Just months of afterglow to the point where I'm thinking, you know, like, maybe I should be doing this twice a year. Like, it's one of those things we know things are good for us, but you only have so much time also, you can't just be running off to the wilderness, you know, three times a year for. Maybe you can, you know. But yeah, like, for, for me, an experience like days like that in the wilderness, life changing, like, just really. It gets the demons out, you know, it resets everything. I mean, I'm not saying you're suddenly perfect after. You're probably, if anything, you're probably a little grumpy, you know, because you didn't sleep as well for eight days, you know. But the point is, is life changing? But it took me time to get to a place like the first. When I did the eight days, I had practiced or I had tried many times before and failed. Like the time I was stealing. Stealing. I went to the family's garden to get food in the middle of the night. What happened is, the next day I went to the family, I said, listen, I didn't bring any food. I'm really hungry. So they gave me some food. And then that day, my brother shows up and he says, hey, Mark, you got the time wrong. Your retreat starts tomorrow. And I'm like, thank God. And so I didn't. But the point is. And then the first night, I actually did a one nighter on the lake, on the raft. And I didn't know about anchoring in a sheltered bay, so I fell asleep. And the next morning I woke up, I was on the other side of the lake. I thought that's probably not safe to be sleeping as I'm just drifting across the lake. Because, you know, so I. So I learned. Like, it took a lot of. Not a ton, but it took some practice. And that's the sad thing. A lot of us were not willing to make the mistakes and put in the time and put in the eff effort to get to a place where we can thrive in solitude. Because the image I use is that solitude, it's like a library. There's a lady solitude is like a librarian. She's really nice, but she's mean. If you're fidgety and noisy, she'll throw you out. So, same thing, solitude. If you go into solitude and you're not willing to enter into the stillness of solitude, you'll be like, I can't take this, and you'll get out. And I know a lot of examples of guys, you know, they'll try a retreat in solitude, and they'll say, after 24 hours, I was going nuts. This is crazy. I got to get out of here. And the monastic tradition says, that's Lady Solitude. She kicked you out. You weren't willing to enter into the rhythm of creation, of God's creation, the stillness. And so you have.

[Matt Fradd]

She'll pummel you. Yeah. This lady solitude is. That's not your phrase, then it comes from somewhere else, because probably the men of Lady Philosophy from Consolation of Philosophy. I was just thinking, you should write a book, Consolation of Solitude. Lady Solitude and what she has to teach you. Yeah, I'm so glad you're doing that. Do you have men reach out and tell you their experience? Has this taken you up on the offer again?

[Father Mark]

Speaking of comments, I've had some comments in my comments section of guys doing it. After I wrote the book in his zone, I heard back from guys who read the book and then closed it. It's okay. Off they went into the wilderness, you know, each guy in his own way. You know, like some guys, they went hiking for a few days or, you know, whatever. And in my parish, three young men have done the three days. Well, another one, I think, attempted it, but I think as time ran out, he's going to try again. There's another guy who's ready to do it or wants to do it. So, yeah, guys, and the three young men in my parish who did the three days, they all had a very powerful experience. It wasn't easy, I don't think, for any of them, but all three of them, it was before going out on mission. Because the idea, too, is when I was sharing with the young men in my parish about this St. John the Baptist, before he was a voice, he was silent. Before Jesus began his mission, he was filled. He went to the desert to eat the scroll, you know, Eat the scroll, the word, you know. And so these two of the men who did a three days, 72 hours alone in solitude. They went on net.

[Matt Fradd]

Sorry, I was just. Real quickly, I was going to insert also Moses on the mountain before bringing down the word of God. But these men, yeah, they heard the.

[Father Mark]

Call to net, so two of them, they knew they were going on net, and they felt, you know what? Before I go on. And I kind of told him, I said, listen, before you go on mission, you need to have a word from heaven. Like, you need to have something to give the people. And the tradition is you go to the wilderness and the word of the Lord comes to you in the desert. You know, you're given a scroll to eat, and then you're commanded, speak to my people, you know. And then the other young man, he went to work with the Damascus.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, yeah.

[Father Mark]

So before going to the Damascus, he spent three days in solitude.

[Matt Fradd]

I'm really glad you're promoting this. Yeah, awesome. How many men are signing up these days for the Companions?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, good question. We get kind of a trickle of, you know, maybe two or three or four every. Every fall who join us. And we've had quite a few ordinations lately. You know, thanks be to God. We're ordaining guys. And so. So, yeah, we're. We're very blessed that the Lord continues to send young men. Very, very good men, too. And so. So, yeah, it's growing. It's, you know, slowly but surely.

[Matt Fradd]

Are there good things happening in Canada right now?

[Father Mark]

Well, one of the brightest lights in Canada is CCO Catholic Christian Outreach. So you kind of university campus outreach. They're. They're just. They're booming. You know, they have a lot of missionaries, and they're a lot of people. Like, they're doing a ton of evangelization and praise God, leading people to encounter Jesus. They're not complicated. They don't, you know, make things complicated. They're simply calling people to a relationship with Jesus, you know, and in all simplicity, and then discipling them into, you know, walk with the Lord and being good Catholics and all that. They're big into events with Eucharistic adoration and praise and confession. Yeah, they have conferences, they have missions. So they're a real shining light in Canada right now. I think we are experiencing some of the phenomena in Canada of just. Just people all of a sudden just being interested in Catholicism, despite all the strange things, weird things going on in the world. And sometimes even in the church, people. Priests have commented, yeah, I'm just getting random oftentimes, too. Young men just showing up saying, yeah, just interested in Catholicism. Yeah. There's good things.

[Matt Fradd]

You have a. And for those who I'm sure most people are aware, but you have a popular YouTube channel which people should check out. We'll link to it below. Other than wilderness type things, what have you been talking about lately that's been resonating with folks?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, well, I. I kind of, you know, touched on all kinds of. Of things. I mean, I post some of my homilies. I've been kind of, you know, mentioning. It's a bit of my kind of interest or whatever is just the kind of warnings that have been coming from different Marian. Apparitions of coming, chastisement. You know, the big one that kind of shook the world was Our lady of quebeho. So in 1981, the Blessed Virgin Mary started to appear to some young people in the, you know, remote country, East Africa, of Rwanda. And these young people, girls in a private or a girls boarding school. The Blessed Mother was, you know, giving, you know, messages of her love and the call to prayer and repentance, but also warned that if the people of Rwanda didn't get rid of the hatred in their hearts, rivers of blood would flow through Rwanda. And Rwanda was, I think, the most Catholic country, like almost 98% Catholic. They call it the jewel of Africa. The Catholic Church called Rwanda the jewel of Africa, but it was two main coexisting tribes, the Hutus and the Tutsis. And everyone knew there was tensions. So the Blessed Mother appears and warns that if they don't get rid of the hatred in their hearts, rivers of blood would run through Rwanda. That was in 81, when the apparitions began. I think it was 94 the genocide broke out. And if you look at the documentaries they threw, about a million people died in 100 days in the genocide. And if you look at the documentaries they threw so many dead bodies, like the Hutus were killing the Tutsis mainly with machetes and stuff, they threw the bodies in the rivers. And you can see the documentaries. There were so many bodies, the rivers were red with blood. And also in the streets, I mean, trickles of blood. So it was a fulfillment of a warning. It was a desperate plea. Like, if you study the messages of Cabejo, the Blessed Virgin Mary was begging day after day, just pleading, pleading, pleading for the people to repent and get rid of the hatred. You know, just the plea from heaven was so insistent and heartfelt and clear. And they say there were so many miracles around the apparitions of Our lady in Cabejo that you Know how some apparitions are skeptics? Oh, I'm not sure about that. They say, cabejo, there's no skeptics. Even the most hardened skeptic knew, okay, Heaven speaking to these children. And they say some people responded to the plea from heaven, you know, mainly to, you know, obviously to repent, to love, and also to pray the rosary. Our lady was hoping that the people would all gather into small groups and pray the Rosary. But not that many people responded. You know, I think there was a sense of, well, it's symbolism. And does she really mean this? And soon, maybe in 100 years, this could happen. It was just kind of a. And unfortunately, and apparently this was acknowledged by the leaders, there was kind of a. The leadership of the church was kind of like, well, be careful. We don't want any sensationalism. Let's not get all hyped up about this. Let's be careful, let's be prudent, let's discern. But they say after the genocide, there was a sense of regret and even embarrassment and shame on the part of the church leaders. They said it was so clear that the Blessed Virgin Mary was begging for conversion and warning. And they were asking themselves, maybe in the future, when Heaven warns us, maybe we should take a little less time for all this discernment and just respond, even if we're not. And the thing is, even if. See, an apparition doesn't have to be officially 100% approved to respond to the message. And a good example of that is in Argentina, where the Blessed Virgin Mary was appeared, and this is approved by the church, the apparitions of Our lady of St Nicholas in Argentina, 1983, the Blessed Mother began appearing to a woman named Gladys. But the bishop, see, the bishop said, if this is true, I want to sign. And it was all kinds of miracles. But there was a boy who had a tumor the size of an egg, and he had to go for surgery. If the surgery was successful, he wouldn't die, but he'd still be left kind of with some handicaps, but if the surgery wasn't successful, he'd die. And the bishop, you know, was called on to, you know, to pray for this boy. And so I think they asked the bishop to anoint the boy. So the bishop sent his vicar or something. He said, go pray for that boy. Give him the anointing of the sick and invoke Our lady of the holy rosary of St. Nicholas, because that's how she was appearing under that title. So the priest goes, gives the Boy. The anointing of the sick prays for the lady of the Holy Rosary of St. Nicholas. Tumor's gone. Before the surgery, they checked. There's nothing there. There was just a hint of a scar where the tumor was. So what does the bishop do? See, the Blessed Mother was asking, buy that piece of land. The visionary saw a beam of light come down from heaven and go into the ground along a river. And the Blessed Mother said, I want a church built here. What does the bishop do after the boy is healed? Buys the land, builds the church. Did he approve the apparitions? No, he said this is still under investigation. They would pray. I don't know what particular. I guess in St. Nicholas, there are huge gatherings, thousands of people. The bishop would show up, celebrate Mass. He wouldn't affirm that these were authentic, but he would affirm the call to prayer. He would was. He was encouraging the good fruit. So that's an example. You don't have to officially approve something to do what she says to respond.

[Matt Fradd]

So in Cabejo, that's your point, right?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Before it was even in Cabejo, the sense is they should have said, okay, this is still under investigation. We're still studying this, but it seems like it might be a good idea for everyone to pray the rosary. And you know what?

[Matt Fradd]

What?

[Father Mark]

Start forgiving your neighbors, and let's reconcile. Let's get rid of the hatred. There should have been an urgent response to prevent that, you know, and so there's, you know, there's a number of Marian apparitions recognized by the church to different degrees, where our Blessed Mother is warning that the world is on the verge, is on a precipice, and if the world doesn't turn back to her son Jesus, and repent of our sinful ways, bad things are going to happen in the world, you know? And so part of my thing is I'm trying to get that message out to the world without, you know, being too. I don't know what alarmist or hysterical, but just. I do feel that, say, in families where the priority isn't to pray together and go to church and pray the rosary, and the kids are probably not going to continue to love God and go to church. Those families need to repent. The parents need to wake up and realize, wait a minute. There's nothing more important than the salvation of the souls of our children. And if we don't make God the number one priority in our lives, we're going to be accountable for that. And so we do need to start going to Church every Sunday. We need to start praying together as a family. We need to start living as well as we can as Christians, at least trying, you know, and the whole world needs to put God first. And if we don't, and especially with, I mean, things are being corrected a little bit in the US under the new administration. I mean, there was a lot of really weird stuff, the new sexual ideologies and all that weird stuff. But if we don't turn away from these abominable things that go totally against God's, you know, design and order, it seems like, you know, they'll be chastisement.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How has the Holy Rosary played an important role in your life? And why should people pray it?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I love the rosary. My family prayed the rosary together very often. Again, the messages from heaven, including, say, Fatima, it was just a recurring theme. Pray the rosary. And, you know, Medjugorje, pray rosary. Cabejo, St Nicholas. Pray the Rosary. And so, you know, for me, I try to respond by praying a daily rosary. Some days, for whatever circumstances, I might only be able to pray a decade. Some days it might only be three Hail Marys before I go to bed because of the day. That's fine, I think, you know, as long as we're putting in an effort. But I think there's something mysteriously powerful about having a rhythm of prayer where we meditate on the life of Christ, where we draw close to the Blessed Virgin Mary, where we, you know, learn from her by, you know, meditating with her on. On the rosary, and also where we're simply obedient, you know, to the call from heaven. And I think a lot of people would just be able to say that, that times in their life when the rosary is a priority and they pray the rosary, there's a. There's a special peace and joy that they might not have when they're not praying the rosary. And I think, you know, families, you know, that pray the rosary. I think part of the reason, like, in my family, I have three brothers, we all love the Lord, you know, and I. So the four of us, the four siblings and I, I, I think part of the reason for that is because we prayed the rosary as a family. So I think there is a special, you know, grace to families that, that pray the rosary. And like I said, for me, I, I just, when I read these, you know, variant apparitions, Our lady wants to spray the rosary. Fine, done. I'll do it. You look at Saint John Paul ii, you look at Saint Padre Pio, you Look at Saint Mother Teresa. Like, for them, pray the rosary, you know, so for me and in my own life, I really do believe that, you know, part of, you know, part of the grace I've received in my life is because I've held the hand of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As you know, when I pray the rosary, you know, they say when you hold the rosary, you're holding our Blessed Mother's hand. So I just, I feel that's brought grace into my life. And I think as humans, we need practical things to do, you know, what must I do? Well, pray the rosary. Rosary, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And it's this beautiful blend of vocal and mental prayer in secret of the rosary. St. Louis. Louis de Montfort even suggests, well, for those who can't get through the entire rosary in one sitting to be intentional, about maybe one decade throughout the day until you complete it. And that's just been really beautiful for me. So I got in the car this morning and what's the temptation? I live quite a ways from the studio, actually, so it's close to the airport for my wonderful guests. But, you know, what are you going to do? Well, the temptation is put on a podcast, which might not be a bad thing, but I just thought this morning, you know what, I'm just going to, like, pray a couple of decades, just very intentionally. And what are you doing when you're praying a couple of decades? I mean, you're thinking about sacred Scripture. And today I was thinking of the words that Gabriel spoke to Mary at the Annunciation. You know, I know you know this, but many people don't realize he didn't say, hail, Mary full of grace. He said, hail, full of grace, you who have been graced. It's this new name. So it was Peter had a new name and, and so on and so forth, Abram, etc. Like, here is this woman, woman, full of grace. And just the. Just what she must have been like to be around this joyful, beautiful. You know, there's been times in my own marriage, I'll sometimes look at my wife and think, who are you? Like, you're very good, you know, and you're a mystery to me. And I just think what Joseph must have thought looking at her and what her relatives must have thought, like, who are you? So anyway, abiding with Mary, meditating on the Scriptures. And I've said this a lot on my show, but I won't tire of saying it to families. Don't be afraid to pray the Holy Rosary imperfectly but calmly.

[Father Mark]

Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, I think it was Escriver who said that your family rosary should be like a warm hearth or hearth.

[Father Mark]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

That's inviting.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And the Holy Rosary, early in my married life with children was. Dad was irritated. Dad's frustrated because people aren't paying attention and they're getting up for their fifth glass of water. I don't do any of that anymore. My rosaries. At night, we. We light the candles, and it's nothing to brag about, Father.

[Father Mark]

That's fine.

[Matt Fradd]

Like last night, someone had homework. Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

You don't want to come and pray with us? Okay. Go do your homework.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

If someone's playing up, do you want to go to bed? You don't. You want to stay here?

[Father Mark]

Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

Why don't we just try to be a little quieter?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

And it's just, you know. So here's an example. This is kind of beautiful. So last night, we're praying the rosary. Excuse me, I have a cold.

[Father Mark]

Cold?

[Matt Fradd]

Well, I'm getting over a cold, I should say. My son Peter was under the blanket the entire time, and my. My daughters were getting a little frustrated with him, not me, because as I said, I don't really care anymore. I've just sort of. The Blessed Mothers pleased. Surely. We're here, and he's under the blankets, and it's his time to lead the decade, and he's leading it from under his blanket.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

And so you might say, oh, gee, that's quite disrespectful. You know, this boy should be on his knees or should at least be in a sitting, prayerful posture, but he's laying on the couch with a blanket over his head. He's not taking it seriously. The rosary ends and he says, dad, it was so nice being under the blanket because it was so dark in there that I could see things in my mind and I could see those Bible things and those events in scripture laying under there.

[Father Mark]

Beautiful. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

That beautiful thing wouldn't have happened if dad was all irritable and immature and yelling at his kids because he thinks it reflects poorly on him if they don't look holy or something.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So anyway, my whole point is just. Just chill out. If something's worth doing, as Chesterton said, it's worth doing badly. And so just do it, but do it with gentleness and calmness. Because what I've found is, even on a strictly human level, there's something nice about gathering the troops at the end of the day, lighting some candles and just praying rhythmically, calling on the intercession of the Mother of God and meditating on the Scriptures. So I did. Yeah, I'd invite people, try again, Try again and be at peace. Blessed Mother loves you. All is well. You don't have to be upset or agitated or frantic or disappointed that you or the children aren't entering in as much as you might think they should.

[Father Mark]

And declaring your home for the Lord and the Blessed Mother. Your home is a place of prayer. It's a place where God is the priority. So that's a beautiful thing.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, beautiful.

[Father Mark]

One other thing I don't know if I can mention is I do have a school of reading. So my conversion happened with spiritual reading. I didn't believe in God, and I talked to my dad about it, and he said, well, read about some of the saints. I was asking, can you experience God? And he gave me a little book of St. Joseph, Cupertino. And when I read that book, I was so, so deeply moved and touched. And I really believe, filled with, you know, the grace of God, the spirit of God. My eyes were open. I remember as I read it, thinking to myself, I want to read books like this for the rest of my life. Like, I don't ever want there to be a time in my life where I'm not learning about the things of God, because this is doing something to me at a mind level, at a heart level, at a soul level. And it changed my life. And I've never stopped doing spiritual reading since of some sort. Like, it's. For me, it's one of the primary ways I keep the fire burning. Like, to me, when you read a good Catholic book, it's like putting another log on the fire. And we're very impressionable as human beings, especially by what we open our minds to. And like I said, for me, good spiritual reading, it just. It does something. Like, sometimes I'll read a book and I'll read something that doesn't really catch me that much. I might not even underline it, because I underline the things that really catch me. And then two days later, it's like that phrase, it comes back to me and it does its work. And I go back. I didn't even underline that, you know. And so for years, I've been encouraging people. Sometimes I'll buy, like, a stack of books. You know, read a good book. I'll buy a stack and kind of pass them out or, you know, encourage people to read it. But on my YouTube channel, I would share with people what I was reading. And I kept getting so many emails saying, what book was that? I can't find that book. And so I decided that, you know what, I think I'm going to start a school of reading. And when I mention books, I'll try to, sometimes I do a series on a book. I'll try to actually choose a book that's in print so that people aren't emailing me saying, I can't find this book you're teaching from. And so, long story short, I now have kind of a school of reading where students can sign up and I send them the books we're studying and I do a weekly teaching on the book that we're going through at the time. And I love it. Again, for me it comes so naturally because I love spiritual reading and I love teaching about the things I'm reading. As a matter of fact, this morning I did this week's teaching in the hotel room. I gave you a shout out. I said, I'm gonna go be with Matt Frad this afternoon or later this morning.

[Matt Fradd]

Where do you do these videos?

[Father Mark]

At my cabin in the woods.

[Matt Fradd]

But no, I mean where are they on YouTube or are they.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah. So they're, they're exclusive videos to the students in the School of Reading.

[Matt Fradd]

Got you, got you. Okay. How do people access the, that patreon?

[Father Mark]

Okay, so schoolofreading.com takes them to my Patreon and it's just when I was looking to establish this thing, I, I, I do have like you viewers from all around the world and I, to me, it's not complicated to put a book in an envelope and send it to someone in Ireland, Australia, like it, that's, that's a very simple thing to do, but it is complicated. Like how the heck do you process? Like, you know, and I kind of did a little research and I thought Patreon can subscribe people all over the world, I don't have to do anything. They take care of everything. They give me even like, you know, like all the kind of the detail stuff. So I just found that's the simplest way for anyone in any part of the world to sign up for the School of Reading. And they can sign up, they can be a casual student that gives them the book of the year, but they get all the teachings. And a part time student gets three books a year sent in the mail and the full time student gets six books a year sent in the mail. And so I'm always looking for little gems, you know, and when I find them, we have them in the School of Reading, we send them out and again, it's Something I love the students, they seem to really enjoy it, too. And it also was someone inspired by Matthew Kelly. I know you know Matthew Kelly, but he. Years ago, I heard him say, the simplest and most effective formation program for our adults, for Catholic adults, is just get them to read good books. And because I'm a big reader, I thought to myself, I totally agree with them. And especially for me, I guess the way I'm wired, what I read sets my heart on fire. It's a way to contemplate. It's like the Lord visits me when I'm reading to me. When you're doing spiritual reading, you're saying, lord, I want you, I'm seeking you. And so it's one of the loves in my life, is to be able to put good books in people's hands so that they can meditate on the wonders of God. And again, my challenge is, spend your whole life reading good Catholic books. And I tell people it can. It doesn't have to be a lot like, even if it's a page a day, just a little bit of input of good things just to me, prevents forgetfulness. That's the Desert Fathers, too. One of the biggest dangers in the spiritual life is forgetting what's most important, where destination and all of that. So. So I thought I'd mention that.

[Matt Fradd]

That's cool. And what. Is there a URL to that? Or they find patreon through your YouTube.

[Father Mark]

They can go to schoolofreading.com oh, good. Or on my YouTube channel. It's kind of posted somewhere in the description or whatever.

[Matt Fradd]

It's funny because most people, if you said to them, most Christians, if a person were to read the lives of the saints and the writings of the saints, would that have a positive impact on their life? I think most people would say, yeah, definitely. I could see how that would influence somebody. And yet so many of us subject ourselves to the quote, unquote, evangelization of the world.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

We binge these different shows that have all sorts of abominable things in them, like sex scenes. And we somehow think that we come out unscathed.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Like, almost like we could wear a suit of white and skip through a tar field and come out. Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

No, yeah. So I think both things. Right. It's withdrawing from the wisdom of the world, which leads to death, and then also withdrawing from those distractions which pollute the mind and make us feel as if we're incapable of investing time in good books. It's like that old. You fill up a glass vase with Sand. There's no rooms for pebble or for bigger rocks, but you put the big rocks in first, pebbles after. Then you can fill it up with sand. Well, so much of our life is filled with the sand and noise of the Internet. Yeah. That we can't even imagine what it might mean.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So I'm so glad you're doing that.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. It's something I really enjoy.

[Matt Fradd]

All right, so we have people from the locals community with questions.

[Father Mark]

Okay. Shout out to your locals people. Hi, y'. All.

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah, haven't heard these questions. Read these questions ahead of time, but let's. Let's take a crack at them. You can think of this as the lightning round, because we have right now 13 Comments. We'll see how many we can get.

[Father Mark]

So you want me to be somewhat concise with each one. Okay.

[Matt Fradd]

Michael Koch asks. Hi, Father, where do you think is the line between speaking with non Catholics publicly when it comes to receiving person and fraternal correction? For example, Matt asks. I don't. Okay. Matt asks actual porn star for a review. I don't know what that means. Should he said what he. He thinks during that interview or be as gentle as possible when she admits she does nothing wrong? Should we even do interviewed like that?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think when we're dealing with people who don't see things as we do, we have an obligation to speak truth to them, to give them clarity about how we see things, but always in a tactful way and in a way that is drawing them, like meeting them where they're at and trying to draw them towards the truth. So for some people, it probably might not work to hit them over the head with the Bible. It might be more posing some questions that will get them to ponder and hopefully soften their hearts to see the truth. In some of those situations, it really boils down to the Holy Spirit leading you and hopefully giving you wisdom with what to say and what not to say. Those. Those situations can be very difficult. But we have to be careful as Christians not to scare people away with too much intensity and maybe even some anger or some, you know, so that's a good question.

[Matt Fradd]

Ryan Hogg says, how can we better have Christ reign as king in our hearts?

[Father Mark]

Well, beautiful question. I mean, love him, you know, love him, talk to him a lot, be faithful to him. You know, read, read Word and, you know, just one of the most powerful things we can do is tell the Lord we love him. And to me, like an atheist or someone who doesn't know God or hasn't experienced God. Like, if they're wanting, oh, what do I do? Experience God. Just, just, just tell him you love him. Like, say God, if you're really, I want to love you. And God's response to our desire for love is, is pretty immediate and strong and wonderful. Like, the most powerful thing you can say to God is God, like, I love you, I want to love you more. And so, yeah, Alyssa says, tips for.

[Matt Fradd]

Getting closer to Jesus and Mary. In a time of intense personal turmoil, sometimes praying feels like the last thing I should or want to do.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. So in, in very difficult times, our prayer might change. I mean, sometimes the, the, the, the only way to pray is to just be in the Lord's presence with our grieving hearts and, and just laying ourselves bare before him, you know, and sometimes too, meditating on the passion of Christ, like, just realizing that the Lord is suffering with us. You know, he's in us. You know, he makes his home in us. And so what we're experiencing, the Lord Jesus is sharing with us and sometimes meditating on his own suffering and his love for us that he shares in our suffering can get us through those times.

[Matt Fradd]

Yes.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Pressing into him, eh? I, I, I was speaking to a therapist here recently, and I think he was quoting Freud. No, Freud. Or who's the other psychologist? Austrian psychologist, was it? Anyway, he said to me, gosh, what was his name?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, Young, Young.

[Matt Fradd]

It was Jung. You're right. He said when somebody would come to him and say, hey, I just got a promotion, Jung would say, don't worry, we're going to get through this together. But if he would come and say, my life is falling apart, he'd say, well, let' the bubbly. And in a way, because that's, that's, that's where the Lord wants to meet us, eh?

[Father Mark]

Interesting.

[Matt Fradd]

And I think sometimes we can have these sort of defenses to make life manageable and to make it work, but he wants our heart as it really is.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Easier said than done when you're going through a time of turmoil. So I hope this person has support. What's your opinion on fiducia supplicants?

[Father Mark]

Well, I, I think I took a stance that, you know, shocked a lot of people who were used to hearing me kind of call out the, the compromises that some leaders in the church were kind of leaning towards. And I just, you know, when I read it, I read it as a priest who was basically deciding, am I going to continue to do ministry? Because if the Vatican was about to ask us to do something that was wrong, that is, you know, bless sinful situations. I'm like, I'm not doing that. You know, I guess I'll go live in the wilderness as a hermit and be happy doing that. And so I read it extremely carefully, line by line, word by word. And when I read through it, I thought to myself, you know what? This. This is fine. You know, it's. It's kind of finds a very fine line. The other thing is, when I was reading it, I knew that Cardinal Manuel Fernandez was finally. God bless him for doing that. He was finally going to navigate the ship through the rough waters of dealing with Germany and Belgium, other countries that were already crossing the line with the whole blessing things. And obviously the Vatican had to do something. It was overdue, and they were kind of delaying that. Before I read, I thought, okay, okay, Cardinal Fernandez, he wrote something. This is it. This is his attempt to get the. Prevent a schism. We all people are saying there's a de facto schism in the church, and we're thinking it's just a matter of, like, what's going to happen. And so I knew that Fernandez was trying to navigate through the impossible waters. Even myself, I think I have an answer to all the world's problems, all these bright opinions. But I thought to myself, if I was in charge of getting the church through this time, I don't know what I'd do. This is such a delicate, such a tough water to navigate through. When I read through it, I thought, shoot, he did it. He came up with an approach.

[Matt Fradd]

And for those at home, it's going to work. Spell out what you think he said that threaded the needle.

[Father Mark]

Okay. So he. He over and over again said, we cannot legitimize sinful partnership situations. He said, if a. If a. If a couple come looking to have their sinful situation legitimized, you can't do that. And then as pastors, he went through, like, you can't have whatever a couple. Couple dressed up as if it's a wedding, you know, going through all of these things. It was like a checklist, really. Thank God, thank God. Like, perfect, perfect, perfect. And so he made it that we can give pastoral care and accompaniment, you know, to couples who are in sinful situations but seeking to, you know, grow closer to conformity to God's will. We can give them pastoral care, pray with them under certain circumstances, bless them. You know, that's again, extremely delicate in a way that I think makes it that a faithful priest can say, yeah, I can and also he left it to the discretion, you know, with certain conditions. Again, you can't do this. You can't do this. You can't do this. They can't. It can't, you know, be. It can't be like a ceremony, you know, mimicking a marriage, but. But it's up to the priest's discretion to decide how to pray with them, you know. And so to me, in a sense, no one was happy. Certainly Africa wasn't happy. And thank God for the Voice of Africa. I mean, that pretty much ended any thought of, oh, this is just the beginning of something. I don't think it made. Made a lot of the German leaders happy. I don't think it made anyone happy, but it got us through. I don't think the LGBTQ community was ultimately happy. They said, oh, yeah, this is a good first step. So it kind of didn't make anyone happy, but it kind of got us through something that I believe didn't compromise the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. I mean, I'm pretty darn close to doing that, you know, but also prevented a schism. You know, it's been over a year since it came out.

[Matt Fradd]

And so, you know, based on this document, if two fellows approached you after Holy Mass and it was evident or they communicated to you that they were living in a same sex relationship and they said, we'd like you to bless our relationship, how would you handle it based on that document?

[Father Mark]

No, I'm not going to bless your relationship. The document says you can't do that.

[Matt Fradd]

But how would that conversation go? They come to you and they say, hey, we understand. And they had goodwill they're not trying to track.

[Father Mark]

Right.

[Matt Fradd]

Understand that the church has said something about you being able to bless us.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

How do you handle that situation based on that document?

[Father Mark]

Well, I mean, if. If they were saying, you know, bless us, I mean, I might simply say, hey, why don't you make an appointment and we'll have a little chat in my office. If you're asking me right here and now to kind of give y' all a blessing, you know, I'm not gonna do that. Because the document says.

[Matt Fradd]

Because it would appear like you were blessing a sinful relationship.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. I mean, if they were too busy, like if they were also two business partners and say, our business is just crumbling right now and we're just. Can you pray for us? God bless you as you lead your business and help you to get through this. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, you know, Again, some pastor buyers might be a little. Little kind of. What. What's that all about? You know? But that would be fine. Yeah, yeah. Situations. Situations. Is it.

[Matt Fradd]

I know the analogy I heard was, you know, if a fella leaves his bride and he shacks up with a woman and he shows up and he's expressed this to you.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

So you now know he's in a sinful relationship, says, would you mind blessing us?

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Is that kind of an. Is that a good analogy? Like the same way that you would kind of have to counsel them in their sin, but also want to help them come closer to the Lord?

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're still as priests in every situation, whether it's couples or whatever, you know, have to discern what am I blessing here. So whatever. If a. If a young lady says, oh, I'm running away from home or I'm doing something silly, I mean, you know, it's like, I'm not giving you a blessing for that. Stay, you know, stay with your parents or whatever. So. So, yeah. I think what happens, though, is in the Western world, there's a lot of people who don't follow church news and politics or any of that, and they're just so immersed in our culture that they don't know exactly where they stand or what they're up to. But they listened to a beautiful Matt Fradd interview and read a nice Matthew Kelly book and a couple. And they realized, I think I want to be more Catholic. And they come looking for help and direction. I think what Pope Francis is asking for is be good to these people, be kind to these people. Don't be immediately too severe with them. I think we've heard enough from Pope Francis to know that he isn't too thrilled about some of the new ideologies. So I. And I think that's good. Like, one of the positive things for priests is here's an example. So say he. They gave the example of a pilgrimage. So we have a St. Mary's pilgrimage day. We're walking from St. Mary's to St. Patrick, St. Pat's and as you're leaving the church, I'm blessing every pilgrim. God bless you in a family blessing and couples blessing. And then there's two people who I know are in a sinful partnership situation, and they're the next. And they come together holding hands, and I'm giving everyone a blessing. Well, before, say, I would have kind of given them a blessing. I don't know if I would have slept well that night. I probably would have gone to confession, thinking I might have done something wrong. I see now they're not looking for a blessing for their situation. All they're looking for is they're walking today like everyone else, and I'm blessing them for their pilgrimage. God bless you. And I can sleep well at night, and I've done nothing wrong. And I think for, you know, a lot of priests in the Western world, where there's a lot of this, it kind of takes the kind of, I don't know what, you know, pressure off to say. And I think that's Pope Francis's heart, like, just try to help these people, try to minister to them, be good to them. If in some situation, I mean, certainly pray with them. As a charismatic, we'll pray with anybody, you know, so praying with people is nothing new. But, you know, like, if minister to them in some situation, blessing them again. It's a very delicate thing, but I think there are some situations, like the example I gave in one video was, okay, so there's a hurricane in your neighborhood where your parish is. You're walking around the parish neighborhood. The next morning, everyone's cleaning up. They're devastated, houses are ruined. You're praying with the different families. And then you see across the road, oh, there is a couple in a sinful partnership situation. Everyone knows, do you go talk to them? Oh, you better as a priest, you know. Yes, go to them. So you go to them and they say, oh, Father, we've lost everything. Could you pray with us? Well, yeah, you pray with them and God bless you as you get through this. The Father. Get through this. The Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, there's nothing wrong with that. You're not blessing their sinful situation. You're blessing them. You know, as two people who are together trying to struggle through a Christian crisis. I, you know, I think since this document, I'd be okay with doing this. And no one can say, you just, you just bless the sin. No, I didn't, because I read Feduchi's Duplicants. It says I can't. So that's not what I did, you know, and just like we, you know, a guy who's stumbling down the street, he got out of one bar and he's going to go probably to another bar, and it sees me, you know, say, hey, Father, give me a blessing. Yeah, I'll give him a blessing. He's doing something ridiculous. But, you know, I'm not blessing him, me. So anyways, I don't know if that makes sense. I guess I know I. I know I took a line that a lot of people, you know, didn't. Didn't appreciate.

[Matt Fradd]

No, I like the way you just laid that out. That makes sense to me.

[Father Mark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Thank you. Philip Z Says, do you find celibacy difficult? Has your view changed after many years as a priest? Any advice for younger men about celibacy or loneliness?

[Father Mark]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a challenge. Challenge difficult, you know, could be the word for it, especially at times. You know, I mean, it's like life has seasons, you know. Is celibacy in the priesthood more difficult than, you know, living appropriately in. In married life? Apparently married life, too, has challenges, you know, living properly, you know, in the sacrament of marriage. I mean, I would say that if you feel the Lord might be calling you to a consecrated life, a life of consecrated celibacy, you would need an affirmation of that before, you know, you make whatever final vows or become a priest, you know, like a degree of freedom to know that, yeah, the Lord is offering me this grace. It doesn't mean that you're not going to experience your humanity throughout your whole life like every other human being. It does mean that it will keep you on your knees and begging God for grace and mercy. Sometimes our struggles with our weakness can be little alarms. You know, it's like, hey, you haven't been praying as much lately. Oh, you're getting a little proud or whatever else, you know. And so, yeah, I would say that it's something that. That's challenging. And, yeah, I would say over the years as a priest, it gets easier, you know, Again, easy is probably not the right word to use, you know, but I think the Lord honors, you know, a response to a call to the celibate life, but requires, you know, staying close to the Lord and being, you know, filled with his love so that we're not turning to other things. But, you know, pray for priests, because priests do struggle, you know, and so, yeah, it's. Especially in our world today. I mean, we're, you know, we're men, you know, and in a world where there's so much temptation, it's a challenge for everyone to kind of avoid the many temptations out there. And so, yeah, I mean, just in general, the priesthood or the consecrate life, it's not for the faint of heart. It's a call to something difficult and challenging. It's definitely possible, but there has to be a determination that I will lay my life down and fight the good fight, fight for the Lord, you know, every day of my life till the day I die. And again, I would say, I don't know if married life is any easier.

[Matt Fradd]

I love how you couched that. Right. Because I think that's kind of the underlying assumption. Not always and not necessarily in this question, but sometimes the assumption can be, is it hard for you because you don't have an outlet? And I think that is just a wrong question. I mean, if an outlet was what brought peace and calm and sexual stability to our life, then the porn addict should be that. But it actually turns out that the one who's hooked on porn is more agitated and feels he needs more and more. So too, with the adulterous man or woman, also with loneliness, it's like, yeah, because no married people are ever lonely. You know, obviously that's sarcasm. And so it's not to say that there aren't particular crosses. I know that the celibate has to carry, but. But maybe there's a temptation that the devil wants to whisper to the celibate that if you were just married, then would be fine and you wouldn't be dealing with loneliness or frustration or sexual temptation.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

All right. Kieran asks, it feels like Canada and Canadians have been having a moment lately. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Peugeot being two examples of great voices recently. What are Father Mark's thoughts on Canada's role in the world with upcoming elections? Well, and with what happened with Trump, President, President Trump, etc.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, I mean, I love Canada. I love being Canadian. You know, I don't know if. I mean, for me, my, My Canadian identity is. Is. Is more just kind of a. A fun thing. I mean, my kingdom is not on this world. My, my. My thoughts, my. My heart is set on another kingdom, an eternal kingdom. I mean, I, I'm so glad that the current leadership in the US Is doing away with all of this radical woke nonsense. Oh, it's like a healing bomb. Like, I heard one commentator, Sky News lady saying, oh, it's like, like a while ago. She's like Christmas every day, like, doing away with all, you know, just one what the executive order after another, doing away with the woke nonsense. Like, do you feel the same way again?

[Matt Fradd]

Yes, of course.

[Father Mark]

Oh, it's such.

[Matt Fradd]

I think all the cool kids do. We just think, oh, we like. And then what happens is when you say, oh, thank goodness.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

You're then accused by these people who say, well, you're treating him like the Messiah. It's like, no, no, very clear who the Messiah is. We. We also know that this insanity has gotten out of hand. I was Just in Australia. And at the local school, they have a. A kitty letter box because someone identifies as a cat.

[Father Mark]

You serious?

[Matt Fradd]

Yeah. That's insane.

[Father Mark]

That's bonkers. The charts. Bonkers. Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

We need to bring the word bonkers back. That's good.

[Father Mark]

Yeah.

[Matt Fradd]

Final question from James. How long you been skateboarding, and do you still like to skateboard? Yeah.

[Father Mark]

So I took up skateboarding when I moved to Texas. Once I picked it up, I was totally hooked, and I was skateboarding almost every single day, and it was so good for me. When I moved to Ottawa, I skateboarded until the pandemic hit. During the pandemic, my indoor skate park, because it's winter, you know, and you can't skateboard outside. So the indoor skate park closed. So I thought, no problem. I'll just start skateboarding in the spring when the outdoor parks opened. But when the spring came, they kept the outdoor parks closed. And by that time, I was walking every day and kind of fell in love with walking and taking a prayer walk every day. And plus, I'm getting older and recuperating from. From, you know, busting myself up is getting harder, harder. So, long story short, I haven't skateboarded since the pandemic.

[Matt Fradd]

Okay.

[Father Mark]

Yeah, I accept it. You know, I knew I'm. When I was skating, I knew the day would come where I'd have to hang up the skateboard. You know, Like, I didn't see myself skateboarding into my 70s or even 60s. I. I thought I'd have a few more years, but I. You know, I loved skateboarding, but I. I felt I was never attached to it. You know, I was willing. I'd be willing to let it go when the time came. And I feel that that time has come, and I. I miss it. You think about skateboarding sometimes and how fun it was to have that as a way of exercising and recreating, but that's. That's what happened.

[Matt Fradd]

Father Mark, thank you so much for getting on a plane and flying to another country and coming on my show. I know what a pain travel is these days, and so me and my. My viewers are very grateful to have you.

[Father Mark]

Well, thank you for having me. And like I said, just so many people saying, oh, Matt Fratt is so awesome. And, you know, I listen to you as much as I can, and, like, you're 100% man. Like, what you're doing is just. Just right on. You're a. You're a very prominent voice that so many Catholics turn to listen to, to kind of get some perspective, you know, help navigate through these crazy times. So, so it's, yeah, honored to be with you and I'm cheering you along. Keep up the good work and, and always at your service too. If there's anything I can do for you, let me know.

[Matt Fradd]

Thanks.

[Father Mark]

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[Matt Fradd]

People on the phone.

[Father Mark]

I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call you.

[Matt Fradd]

Talk to one of them.

[Father Mark]

They stay anonymous.

[Matt Fradd]

I can't hang up.

[Father Mark]

That's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings.

[Matt Fradd]

Crazy funny ones.

[Father Mark]

I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends.

[Matt Fradd]

I never know what's going to happen.

[Father Mark]

It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.