From Muslim to Catholic: Islam Is the Heresy of Heresies (Ismail Youssef) | Ep. 518

Summary

Podcast Summary: "From Muslim to Catholic: Islam Is the Heresy of Heresies (Ismail Youssef) | Ep. 518"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Pints With Aquinas
• Host: Matt Fradd
• Guest: Ismail Youssef
• Episode Number: 518
• Release Date: April 2, 2025
• Description: Long-form discussions, debates, and teachings on the Catholic faith.

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1. Introduction

In Episode 518 of Pints With Aquinas, host Matt Fradd welcomes Ismail Youssef, a notable convert from Islam to Catholicism. The episode delves deep into Ismail's personal journey, exploring his experiences, challenges, and the ideological shifts that led him to his new faith.

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2. Guest Background and Early Life

Ismail Youssef begins by outlining his multicultural upbringing. Born in Halifax, Canada, to a Jehovah's Witness mother and a Sunni Muslim father from Egypt, Ismail shares:

[04:04] B: "I was born in Halifax, Canada. My mom grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and my dad was a devout Sunni Muslim."

Ismail also mentions his visual impairment due to glaucoma, which played a role in his family's dynamics and his father's protective expectations.

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3. Initial Doubts and Early Influences

Ismail recounts his early education:

[06:55] B: "My dad was a very devout Sunni Muslim, attending the mosque five times a day, even morning prayer which isn't a requirement."

At a young age, Ismail encountered conflicting religious teachings. He describes a pivotal moment at age six when a Muslim cleric introduced controversial ideas about Jews, leading to his first doubts about Islam.

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4. Transition to Atheism

During his teenage years, Ismail moved between Egypt and Canada. Exposure to diverse perspectives, including atheistic views in Canadian schools, further intensified his internal conflict. He shares a significant struggle during a chat with his atheist friend:

[25:53] B: "I started questioning if God existed after seeing people behave without a moral compass."

This period was marked by a deep existential crisis, leading to substance abuse and a near-death experience where he subconsciously prayed for God's intervention.

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5. Conversion to Christianity

Ismail's path to Christianity was serendipitous. Encountering Catholic Christian Outreach (CCO) at university, he initially aimed to challenge their beliefs but ended up finding solace and truth in the faith. A transformative moment occurred during a group Thanksgiving dinner:

[77:46] B: "I whispered to myself, 'Jesus, if you're real, show me right now,' and the Holy Spirit entered my life."

This profound experience led him to embrace Catholicism fully, culminating in his baptism during the Easter Vigil.

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6. Post-Conversion Experiences and Challenges

Ismail faced significant familial and social challenges post-conversion. His mother struggled with his newfound faith, fearing it would disrupt family harmony. He narrates the emotional confrontation:

[84:00] B: "I zipped up my rosary, walked in, and it fell facing her. She immediately cried, begging me to deny Jesus."

Despite the turmoil, Ismail remained steadfast, eventually gaining his father's tentative acceptance, marked by symbolic gestures like a heart emoji in response to his announcement of engagement.

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7. Critique of Islam and Views on Heresy

A central theme of the episode is Ismail's strong critique of Islam, which he classifies as "the heresy of heresies." He argues that Islam intrinsically promotes violence and misinterprets divine principles:

[137:39] B: "Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam. ... The vision of Islam is to take over the world by any means necessary."

Ismail dissects Quranic verses and Hadiths, highlighting issues like polygamy, child marriage, and the portrayal of prophets, asserting that these elements contradict true divinity and moral standards.

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8. Engagement in Apologetics and Outreach

Post-conversion, Ismail actively participates in Christian apologetics, especially targeting Muslim audiences. He discusses his experiences debating and engaging with Muslims online, emphasizing the importance of logical and philosophical arguments over emotional appeals:

[135:34] B: "Never bring up personal experiences or emotions. Focus on logical arguments for God's existence."

He highlights prominent apologetics figures like Sam Shamoon and David Wood, praising their rigorous approach in addressing Islamic doctrines.

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9. Interaction with the Christian Community

While Ismail found genuine friendships within the Christian community, he also encountered hostility and rejection from some members. He reflects on the complexities of integrating into a faith community that can sometimes be as divisive as other religious factions:

[149:19] B: "I've never seen a group of people more divided than the one universal church."

Ismail emphasizes the need for prudence and humility in evangelizing, learning from his initial aggressive approach that led to loss of friendships.

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10. Final Reflections and Advice

As the conversation draws to a close, Ismail shares advice for fellow converts and those exploring faith transitions:

[141:46] B: "Allah will not be offended because the first words in the Quran is 'iqra,' which means to read or seek knowledge."

He encourages seeking truth over comfort, advocating for deep exploration of scriptures and logical reasoning in faith journeys.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [00:16] B: "Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam... love is 100% part of Christianity."
• [04:04] B: "I was born in Halifax, Canada... My dad was a devout Sunni Muslim."
• [25:53] B: "I started questioning if God existed after seeing people behave without a moral compass."
• [77:46] B: "I whispered to myself, 'Jesus, if you're real, show me right now,' and the Holy Spirit entered my life."
• [84:00] B: "I zipped up my rosary, walked in, and it fell facing her. She immediately cried, begging me to deny Jesus."
• [137:39] B: "Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam... The vision of Islam is to take over the world by any means necessary."
• [135:34] B: "Never bring up personal experiences or emotions. Focus on logical arguments for God's existence."
• [141:46] B: "Allah will not be offended because the first words in the Quran is 'iqra,' which means to read or seek knowledge."

---

Conclusion

In this compelling episode of Pints With Aquinas, Matt Fradd and Ismail Youssef navigate the intricate journey of religious conversion, deeply analyzing the theological and philosophical discrepancies between Islam and Catholicism. Ismail's candid revelations offer listeners profound insights into the challenges of faith transformation, the importance of seeking truth, and the complexities of interfaith dialogues.

For more information or to support further episodes, listeners are encouraged to join the Locals community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam. One of the last phrases that Muhammad said is amirt anu qataruna nas hatta and yakuruna la ilhan Allah. That I have been commanded to fight the world till everyone says there is no God but allah. It is 100% intrinsic. In the same way, love is 100% part of Christianity. We have to stop viewing Islam as another religion. There has to be a gathering of Christians saying this is a heresy and it needs to be stopped. That's like the vision of Islam is to take over the world basically by any means necessary to the extent that they will lie. And there's this concept called taqiyah, which means like hiding the truth. So this is a concept that you can use in order to forward Muslim agenda. I've seen it in debates all the time where I see a Muslim say something in a debate and I know for a fact he is lying. And he knows he's lying.

[A]

Ishmael, great to have you on pints with Aquinas.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Now we have to acknowledge this. This thing that you've brought me. This is single malt Whiskey.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Age 10 years. Canadian Spirit of Nova Scotia. Thank you.

[B]

It's very nice of you. Nova Scotia. Yeah.

[A]

There you go. This is great. And. And my very classy whiskey glasses we have. Thanks so much, man.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

How did this happen? You reached out to me over Instagram or somebody did, telling me about your story.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I looked into you. It was impressive.

[B]

There. I have a friend in Scotland. Her name's Shannon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she follows my stuff. So I have like a very small, like ministry I kind of do. Just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Trying to evangelize to Muslims.

[A]

God bless you.

[B]

And she follows it because she lives in Scotland and over there we see the like Muslim community is growing significantly in like the UK and.

[A]

Can I open this? That's the question.

[B]

That's a great question. I have no idea. I actually was in the duty free of the airport. I didn't know which one to pick. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I was in a duty free and I was texting my friend. His name is Ken and he's really into whiskey. So I was like, which one should I get him? Yeah. And he's like, get this one. And he showed it to me, and it was actually wasn't in the duty free, so I was just like, I'm just going to get something Nova Scotian. I saw that. I grabbed right away and I was like, all right. Hopefully it's good.

[A]

So, yeah, is Keith still a big beer?

[B]

Keith is in Canada. Yeah.

[A]

I remember when I was there, it was like the thing back in 2002.

[B]

So what I wanted to do was bring Keith, but my friends who may be listening to this right now said, don't bring Keith is not the best beer, which I disagree upon. I think Keith is the best beer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But, yeah, so that was my first plan. But, yeah.

[A]

Well, this is great, man. It's a longer table than usual.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Thank you so much.

[A]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[B]

All right, cheers.

[A]

Yes. Cheers to you. Praise God. It's lovely.

[B]

That's pretty good.

[A]

So you are a convert from Islam?

[B]

I am.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

You want me to begin from the beginning?

[A]

And when you say convert, you don't mean, like, I read some of the Quran once.

[B]

But no, no, I grew up Sunni Muslim in Egypt. Like, I, I, I read full, like, classical Arabic, the whole nine yards. Yeah.

[A]

I am legitimately so looking forward to hearing your story.

[B]

I mean, I don't want to praise myself. When people hear my story, they really love it. And I'm really grateful to God that people are able to hear my story and have such a huge, like, moment almost and, like, appreciate what God's doing in the Muslim world. But, yeah, I'm excited to share it, too. So.

[A]

Okay, well, let's begin at the beginning.

[B]

All right. I'll just go through where I'm from, I guess.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I was actually born in Halifax, Canada. I was born to my mom, who actually grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and my dad, who is from Egypt. And she, she. He grew up a Sunni Muslim. And for a long time, my mom didn't care about religion, so she grew up in the JW religion. And it seemed that for some reason, that faith didn't really resonate with her. It seemed very pushy on her. So when she was, like, 14, she left religion, like, altogether. And then she got married to my dad at the age of 17, and my dad was around 27, 28, so there's a huge age gap there. But they actually met at a wedding, which is interesting. So my dad went to Halifax from Egypt to be at this wedding, and they met there. And I never remember if it was three weeks or three months, but it was something like that where they're like, sitting there. And they were like, should we get married? And they're like, yeah. It's like, how about next Friday? They're like, okay. So they went. They went and got married, like, the next Friday, like, after, like, a couple weeks of knowing each other.

[A]

Whereabouts was this? Halifax.

[B]

This was still in Halifax. Yeah. But my dad had to go back to Egypt for a long time. There's, like, political issues, there was some business issues. So he went back to Egypt, I think, for a few years, and then came back to Canada. And my mom eventually moved to Egypt with him. So my mom kind of became a Muslim, not by faith. She didn't believe in it at all, but because of the practicality of living in Egypt, especially because having children. So eventually she had my brother, then she had me. And in Islamic law, if a Christian, a Muslim, have kids, if the wife is still alive after the husband dies, she doesn't get inheritance, the kids will. So. And at the time, Egypt was enforcing that law, and she wanted to be able to, like, have a good life in case anything happened to my dad. So she went down to the Al Azhar mosque, which is like the huge mosque in Egypt, got a paper saying she became a Sunni Muslim, called it a day, and she's been a quote unquote Muslim ever since. And, yeah, and she. I would say she thinks Islam is better than Christianity because it makes more rational sense to her in the sense that, like, there's one God. God's not a human being. He has to do good works to get to heaven. She does know, like, the bad things about it and all the political issues and the life of, like, the Prophet, and we can get into that later. But it seems to not bother her because she thinks every religion is corrupt, and she just kind of lives this, like, life where religion is very useless, but just believe in God. Then there's my dad, and my dad is a very devout Muslim. So he prays five times a day.

[A]

And this is in Halifax. He's still together.

[B]

They're still together. So we're not born yet. Let's go back up. So my dad has been a devout Muslim. She converts to Islam because they have my. My brother and the whole inheritance thing, it was, like, just easier for my mom to, like, get inheritance. And what happens is my dad seemed to, like, have the switch where he actually wasn't super devout. It almost overnight he became very devout Muslim. So my mom would tell me how he came home one day and grabbed all the alcohol from the fridge and just threw it down. The drain. And then he actually, like, was considering, like, the divorce also. This is just for my family. Sorry. I'm telling all this. Like, they were considering divorcing.

[A]

But what was it that happened in your father's life? Did he ever tell you?

[B]

I think that he met another Muslim who had a very radical concept. Concept of the religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And wanted to push him into being very radical.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it worked almost. And he had this moment where he just gave up cigarettes, he gave up alcohol. He was like, we're only going to eat halal meat. We're, you know, maybe it's not that bad to have a second wife. And this was hectic on my mom, I bet. So my mom is from, like, Nova Scotia, Canada. Like, yeah, small town Canadian. Just, like, the only immigrant they have is, like, the one Indian guy down the street who owns, like, the supermarket. That's all they've known. And then all of a sudden, she's married in the middle of the Middle east, and my dad's freaking out about Islam. So it was a huge flip for her. And it's just interesting how my dad went through his phase and it cooled down a little bit, but it never went back to normal. So till today he's a very devout Sunni Muslim, and so he'll actually wake up every morning and go to the mosque just to pray. Morning prayer, which is not a requirement at all. You have to only go to the mosque, like, on Fridays. But he goes, like morning prayer, evening, sometimes night prayer. He'll go. He's like, one of the most religious Muslims I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then he had my brother and he had me. And they actually named me Ishmael, or in Arabic, Ismail, because my name means the father of the Arabs in Arabic. And it also means God listens. So they thought it was very poetic and very beautiful that, like, Allah was listening to me. And I was kind of like their pride almost. So I was born with a disability. I'm visually impaired. And because of my visual impairment, my dad saw that God would be very easy on me in my life. He thought that God would almost relax any punishments he'd give to me. I say, like, I sinned, I ate pork, or I fornicated. God will not be as harsh on me because I have an excuse because I'm disabled. And so I was almost like the pride of the family. And. Yeah, and my brother, I guess he was also, like, very cherished. But there was something unique about me. And there was something almost like, we have to protect Ishmael. We have to make sure he's always like in the faith. He's always going to be okay, his health is going to be okay. And so I went to a Muslim academy in Halifax, it's still around today. And I went there for just like kindergarten. So like till the age of five. And my dad basically came to the decision that they weren't teaching me anything, which they weren't. They basically like, were like, the Quran says God exists, go to bed. Like they were, they were very much like, we're not gonna teach these 5 year olds about Islam. So my dad's like, we're going to go back to Egypt so he can learn about Arabic and the Quran and stuff. So I went to an American international school.

[A]

So your whole family moved?

[B]

Yes, back. So my brother and I can learn Arabic and we can be able to.

[A]

Read with your mom?

[B]

Yes. So at this time, like they wanted us to be born in Canada because Canada is a safer country.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my dad was thinking that because there's a Muslim school in Halifax, it would work out, but it just wasn't good. So they came to the decision to go back to Egypt. And so I think I was around five when we went back. And I don't remember. This is from like my mom telling me. And I remember one time when I was six that a Muslim cleric came to the house to try to teach us the Quran. And I think this was the first time I had doubts in Islam was actually at 6. I actually never told anyone this, but he said something about the Jews and it was like something about how anyone who is of Jewish ethnicity or Jewish religion, not like they're less, but like their blood is like more halal, like their blood is halal being permissible. And even my dad was like, this is a little much. What do you mean they're blood's more permissible? Well, and like, like he was going on about this. And then my mom, like being from like the west, she's like, this can't go on in our house. What is this guy teaching him? Like? So my dad's like, yeah, you can't come back anymore. And that was the first time I was like, I don't know what that was about, but that was weird. The second time happened when I was around 8 or 9 and this was in Canada. So every summer I'd go back to Canada to visit family. And we're sitting in a Walmart parking lot and I asked my brother, we're waiting because we didn't want to go into the Walmart. We Were tired and my mom's just getting groceries and I'm just like, do the Christians think God like became a man? And my brother's like, yeah, something like that. Like, you know, like. And like this is just what he said. I'm not saying this is, it sounds blasphemous, but it's like the words of a 12 year old kid. Like, oh, I guess like God had sex with Mary and then they had Jesus. I was like, so is that like God or the son of God? And it's like, don't worry about too much. And I was like, I'm kind of worried about it. I will actually, I will worry. I'll think about it for a second because what do you mean God produced God? So I thought about it and I was like, can God enter universe? Probably if he's God he can do that. But it was just like a thought and then it went away. And then I remember probably around 12, this is another hint. So God keeps sending these hints throughout my Life. And around 12, this was a big hint. We had a teacher and I'm gonna say his name because I think he deserves props. He, he was a secret Protestant missionary at the school in Egypt. So I went to an American school there.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

And he's kidding me. He was a math teacher, but he hinted about the gospel every time he could friggin love Protestants, dude. They're amazing. They're amazing at doing this. We gotta do this better. But it's just like he, he would say like, oh, I love how Muslims are so devoted while praying to God like five times a day. It's amazing. And it's like, but how do you learn about love? And then we'll talk about love. And he'd be like, yeah, there was this one quote how like this guy said even if like your enemies hate you, you gotta love them. Like he would quote the scriptures in a way that like, wow.

[A]

So you, so you're telling me this Protestant white missionary infiltrated a Muslim school?

[B]

School's American button. The school's an American school, but for Muslims it's like 90 Muslim. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's like.

[A]

But so if, if he was out and out about being a Christian, he'd.

[B]

Be kicked out of country. Yeah, 100. So he would do that.

[A]

What's his name?

[B]

His name's Tyler Rocher.

[A]

And God bless you, Tyler.

[B]

I would love to see him again. Like, I know, I remember he stays from Louisiana. And if he is still there, like, and you can find me online, reach out to me.

[A]

Everyone I've ever met from Louisiana has been amazing. So that. That confirms bias about Louisiana.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, he was great. And he would like.

[A]

Yeah, so what would he do?

[B]

And it wasn't even math. Like, we're learning about, like, algebra and.

[A]

Like, 10 minutes into the class, three persons, one God. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. I'm like. And then there was this girl in at the school who began to, like, change her mind about religion.

[A]

In what direction?

[B]

Like, to Jesus. And because of him. Yes. So they started meeting. And I'm going to keep her name, like, anonymous. I don't know where she's doing her life, but she would like me with him. And eventually her parents found out and then they contacted the school, then they contacted the Egyptian government and they kicked him out of the country.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I never heard of him again. But now, looking back on my life, knowing the scriptures, I know what he was talking about. I know that he was quoting Jesus words, but, like, indirectly and saying things like, wouldn't it be better if, like, you know, it says in the Quran, like, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but wouldn't it be better if, like, you know, if someone punches you, you just like, show them love?

[A]

Turn the other cheek.

[B]

Yeah, just a hint in there. And I'm like, yeah, it would be better, Mr. Tyler. It's good. Good. Yeah.

[A]

It's a great insight.

[B]

It is a great way of doing it. We learned no math that year. Like algebra. Like, the textbook was useless. Yeah, yeah. And I loved it. It was great. And that was the first hint because I started recognizing that his points, even though I wasn't really sure where it was coming from, were better than the faith I was growing up with. So, like, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that, like, if I keep doing that, eventually the end of the world, like, the world is going to end. It's like it's mutually assured destruction. We're all going to kill ourselves. And it seems that, like, whatever he was saying seemed correct. And that was grade seven, and then there was grade eight and there was someone else. And I don't know if the school, like the American school, planned this out or it was just luck of the draw. But my history teacher, his name is Mr. Hurst, I forget his first name, did the same thing come on in history class. And he would be like, yeah, we always learn history from one perspective. You know, like here in the Middle east, we learn about the Americans invading Iraq and all this stuff. But I like to go deeper into ancient history, like in The Roman Empire. Like, they. They colonized this place called Palestine. Like, I'm like. And I'm not. I don't know what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But now I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, my goodness. He was basically telling me about, like, and he would use, like, Muslim phrase, like, like, you know, like, Issa, Jesus lived during that age. And what did he preach? And also the kids would be like, oh, you know, he said, love people, like, submit to Allah, whatever. And then he like, that's a good. Like, he. I don't know where they got these people, but every class, like every grade there was like one missionary. And I don't know what happened to him, but eventually he had to leave Egypt as well, maybe for similar reasons. And then I think the biggest one was grade nine and his name was Mr. Norman Lines, I think. And he. I forget where he's from, but he told my mom that he was a born again Christian and that he was in shock about the hypocrisy in the Middle east where Muslims, Muslims in general not all obviously will say, like, yeah, we have to stay pure before marriage. But then they will. Then he'll walk in the hallways of the school and see people having sex. And he's like, what? Like, do you guys not believe this religion? And he would call people out and he's like. And he was very straightforward. He's like, my religion says this. Your guys doesn't like, you guys need to practice what you preach because we're older in grade nine now. Like, maybe he's like, getting harsher. And he didn't last long. I feel like someone complained, but, like, eventually he had to leave. And that was my last year in Egypt for school. And then I went to Canada for high school. And at this time, what was your.

[A]

Opinion of Christians generally at that point?

[B]

I love them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I generally thought they were amazing.

[A]

And your only experience of them was these teachers?

[B]

Well, there's the Coptics in Egypt.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they've never treated me bad.

[A]

And you knew them, though? You were friendly with them?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

God bless the cops.

[B]

The Coptics as well. And they know that they can't say a lot in public. Like, and there's huge discrimination against Coptic Christians. I know people whose villages were burnt down. I know people who, like, grandparents were murdered by, like, just someone finding under a Coptic.

[A]

And were you ever friendly enough with them such that you were going to their houses and interacting?

[B]

Yes. And to backtrack, I guess there's another time there was this guy Needs to be shout out. His name is Imad Ramsey. And he. We were messing around in like grade three and I don't know if we were wrestling, but something like fell out of his pocket. I took it in Arabic, it says like, prayers to the Theotokos. And I looked at it, I was like, what is this? He was like, well, the Theotokos started telling me about who Mary is. And I'm just in grade three, I don't know what's going on. But he had the courage to tell me it. He could have said, oh, it's nothing, and put it in his pocket. And after I had my conversion, I actually contacted him to tell him that I became a Christian because he deserved to know. And now he's living in California, so he's in a good, safe place. But he's very excited and he follows me. And like every, like once a year I talk to him, see how he's doing.

[A]

Wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, there was all these signs and what really bothered me is that they never said anything bad about the Muslims. Not once. The Coptics never said anything bad. But every time I was hanging out with Muslims, every time it was the word nijis was like thrown around, meaning unclean.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They were unclean. Why? Well, they think God is a man. That's the biggest blasphemy. That's unclean. They eat pork, they're unclean. They drink, that's unclean. They. I don't know, just anything. They'll come with anything to say they're unclean. But every time I'm with the Christians, the Coptic Christians are even the missionaries, they never attacked the people. They never said anything bad about Muslims.

[A]

Probably because they would be persecuted.

[B]

That's true. But I think they trusted me enough because they would have that. They would have if they could. But their faith, kind of like it goes back to that verse in Ephesian where we fight against spirits and principalities, not against like blood, flesh and human beings. They knew that it wasn't the Muslim's fault.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is there something else going on? And we can talk more about what I think that is. But so all those things happen. And at this point I'm getting like Grade nine was a shift in my, my faith where I was actually getting more and more radicalized.

[A]

What does that look like?

[B]

It looks like when the Charlie Abdul attacks happened in France, where they drew the draw Muhammad thing. Yeah. My first instincts were they kind of deserved it. That was my first thought as a 15 year old. And I don't like I can say.

[A]

And you're living in Halifax at this.

[B]

Point, or this is right before going from Egypt to Halifax. Like, it happened, I think, in April, and the school year ended in May, June, so we're gonna go to Halifax. And that was my first thought. And it spooked me because I was like, why did that come to my mind? That my first thought was they deserved what they were getting because they made fun of Muhammad. And it almost felt like it wasn't me thinking because I was a pretty rational person I was talking to. I knew people who were atheists, who were Christians, I knew gay Muslims, and I had no problem with them. But something about offending Muhammad triggered me in a way, when I was 15. Then I went to Canada. And in the Western world, everything's on the table to make fun of. So, like, going to a high school in Canada. And we went there actually because my brother graduated high school in Egypt. So we all decided, like, my dad wanted to retire from his job. My mom wanted to go back to Halifax, And Halifax is always home. Egypt was just like, where he went to school. And we decided to just, like, move all of us to Egypt or move all of us to Halifax. And so I go to school there, and the first people I meet are atheists, like, just out of the blue. And it baffled me. I knew one or two atheists, but I didn't. I never met 30 atheists in a row. They never have in my entire life, where people just generally don't believe in God and never thought about in their lives.

[A]

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[B]

Till this day, like, one of the atheists is my best friend. He's seen me go from Muslim To Christian. He's seen the whole, like nine yards. And he's still like my brother. He's my best friend and he's supporting me through the whole way. But he was the first, like, real atheist I sat down to and asked why he was. And he would say things like the scientific evidence or the theory of this or that. And I'm like, just words I've never even considered in my life about. Because logically, like, things have to be created. And that was how my mind worked.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But living in this, like, secular country, because Canada is the furthest thing from a Christian country at this point. And just hearing all these arguments and seeing sin while Muslims and Christians, like, they don't agree about like, a lot of things. But as a Muslim, like 15 year old, I saw sin. I saw people having sex for marriage. I saw people doing drugs. And I was like, they don't have a moral compass. They're just doing things for like this hedonistic pleasure. And I, I have like a midlife. Well, not midlife crisis, but quarter life. A quarter life crisis. I was like, people don't believe in God. What? Like, people don't fear God like you, you're talking about. They would talk about, like, Syrian refugees are like people dying in Africa as, like a joke because they're children, they're like teenagers and they're making memes about it. Yeah. And my first instincts, like, I've lived in Middle East, I've seen these people. They're human beings. But because they're so desensitized and so separate from that part of the world, they don't know that they're real human beings. They're just seeing pictures. And it made me really question life and question if God existed.

[A]

I would think if I were in your shoes or if somebody else were in your shoes, it might reinforce their Islamic convictions. Because here you have what you were raised with and, and, and you're kind of coming across godless people.

[B]

At first it did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until I started. Until the atheists started asking me why I believed in Islam.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I started telling them about the Quran and all the miracles it had and about Muhammad's life, or at least the version that was taught to me y. And the evidence behind it. But the friend who I talked about before, who's still my best friend, simply asked me, why don't you read about his life? That's all he said.

[A]

I was like, okay, from who? What account did he.

[B]

Like, Muslim accounts. Just go read what your own religion says about Muhammad's Life.

[A]

And did he say that because he thought he knew what Muhammad was like, but you didn't?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He had a gut feeling that I didn't actually know what Muhammad's in his life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm just going to be very frank with you. Like, so, like, just to give some clarification, the Quran is the direct word of God and in the Hadith are the sayings, are the teachings of Muhammad.

[A]

Yeah. This is how it's understood.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So it's almost like the Bible and the church tradition. That's the best way, like to explain it to a Catholic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The Quran itself, there is issues in it, but I would say if there are Muslims that only believe in the Quran, they're a huge minority and they're relatively peaceful because the Quran is just a lot of, it's just stories of prophets where when it comes to the Hadith or the sayings or the collections of Muhammad's life, it's not pretty, it's pretty bad.

[A]

And had you read much of the Hadith before then?

[B]

There's some good in it. And I was taught the three or four good things.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And not the nine or ten terrible things.

[A]

So after your friend challenged you, that was one of the first things you went to, to study?

[B]

Well, yeah, I read it on a Monday. I remember this. It took me a week to leave Islam. I read, I opened up the Hadith on a Monday and I didn't have to use the translation. I spoke fluent Arabic. And there's this verse in the Quran, this was the first hint. And it says, I'll just say it.

[A]

In Arabic in the Quran of a Hadith.

[B]

Well, it says in the Quran first it says, and what's permissible for you is your wives and what your, your right hand possesses. Now in English, they try to change a little bit which. Side note, never trust an English version of the Quran or the Hadith. And we can get to that later. But in English they try to say that like, oh, it's not saying what it's saying, but I, I know Arabic.

[A]

So what's it saying?

[B]

Right hand possession is a saying in Arabic meaning slaves. So there's something called azbab al nuzul in the Hadith, which means the reasons for recitation or the reasons for this verse being like revealed by God. And the story goes basically to summarize, is Muhammad and his army, they surround this village and the village surrenders and it's a time of war. And they asked him, like, what do we do about the Wives and the women in the village who, you know, like, their husbands are dead from the. From the war. Like, they're already married. They were married to them. And we actually don't want to have sex with them. We don't want to take them as wives. And Muhammad said that it is permissible to take them as wives against their will. And as soon as I read that, I knew what I was going to say, because I know the saying. But as soon as I read the clarification of the verse, I was like, so you're assaulting women? And you're like, I can't say the word for censorship, but you know what they're doing? Like, taking someone against their will. That's terrible. That's the most disgusting thing in my life.

[A]

When you said you looked at the interpretation of it, what does that mean? Or when you.

[B]

So there's a few commentators that they're called tafsir, which just means commentators. And the most famous one is Ibn Kathir, and he is by far the most populous, like, in the entire Muslim world. And like Saudi Arabia, like, people there, they love him. And he is probably the most accurate, too. He's like St. Ignatius of Antioch, close to disciples type of thing. And he explains this is what was happening. And he knows because he's getting from accounts of people who were in the battle and saying, this is what Muhammad said to do in the battle. And my first instinct was almost to throw up, like, because I couldn't. I couldn't do that. I could never do that to someone. And then other things would come up. Very popular one is one of his wives. Aisha was nine years old when they consummated their marriage. And people can say that, oh, it's a different time and place. There's an issue with that. Number one, he's called Rahmatan Alameen, that he's a mercy to mankind, Muhammad for all times and places. So if he is a prophet of God, it should be suitable for all times. Number two, it said that she was playing with dolls. And in Islam, dolls were prohibited because they looked like idols. At the time, there was an exception for her because of her age. It says this in the hadith, and it also says in the hadith that Aisha being the daughter of this man named Abu Bakr, Abu Bakr was not happy with the marriage.

[A]

This is. This is Aisha's father.

[B]

Yeah, okay. He was not happy with it. Another one was one of his companions, like, one of Muhammad's companions wanted to marry his daughter fatima, who was 12. And he said, she's too young to be married. And I don't have the historical records with me, but at the time the Byzantine Empire forbade any marriages for anyone under age of 14. So at the time we have records that this was not acceptable. Even in the time period of 6th century, like Arabia, our Byzantine area, like, it wasn't acceptable.

[A]

Do Muslims dispute what you're saying right now about Aisha being nine? And why? Are you right?

[B]

No, no, no, they won't dispute that.

[A]

They won't.

[B]

Most Muslims will say she was 9. Some will just straight up lie and say, no, she was 18. But the Muslims who are like legitimate will just say they're lying. But it's very clear. Like in the most authentic hadith it says he consummated the marriage at nine. Wow. And the argument is not maybe she was in nine. The argument is they matured quicker at that time to our time to quicker. They matured quicker like you would.

[A]

Quicker.

[B]

Yeah, they matured quicker. So like, yeah, they're physically like she had to reach puberty.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Which basically falls apart completely because there's a verse in the Quran that says that you can have marriage, you can have intercourse with someone who hasn't reached puberty.

[A]

It says that in the Quran.

[B]

Well, it says that if you. It's very hinted at.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But basically explicit. Not explicit, but it says if you're in doubt, if your wife, like from a previous marriage is pregnant, wait three months even if she's had menstruated, can't menstruate anymore, or hasn't menstruated yet. So this is the verse hasn't menstruated yet.

[A]

This is in the Quran.

[B]

Yeah, it's Surat al Talaq, which is chapter 65, verse 4. It starts.

[A]

And this is in reference to a girl who's already been married but hasn't menstruated.

[B]

And if you're afraid that she's pregnant somehow, wait three months even if she hasn't menstruated. So obviously this is a thing the Muslims are doing at the time. And obviously Muhammad married Aisha at nine years old. And that's just a fact of life. I, I don't know how Muslims get around that.

[A]

And so you read this and was that shocking to you because you had already read the Quran? How was this news to you at the time?

[B]

You know when you read like a book but you don't really read what's on the page, like, you're just like skimming it.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure We do that with the scriptures, with everything. Right.

[B]

We.

[A]

Yeah. And we tend to try to make sense of a book in light of what we do understand. Right. Not what we don't understand. So there are confusing passages in the scriptures that we seek to understand in light of what we do. That's just how we try to understand any given thing.

[B]

And I think that's probably what happened.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder, have you encountered Muslims who've tried to explain that away, or are you finding that. No, no. Because, I mean, I just saw a debate recently. Forgive me, what's his name? There was a debate on child marriage between a Muslim and I think.

[B]

I know you're talking.

[A]

Oh, I feel terrible that I've forgotten his name. He's been on the show. He's fantastic.

[B]

Anyway, was it Sam Shimon or.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Captain Christianity. No, I'm not sure.

[A]

Yeah, his name escapes me right now. But.

[B]

But no, like, for example, this is.

[A]

I mean, I'm seeing people publicly talking about children being able to be married in Islam today. I'm seeing that on YouTube.

[B]

Yep. It's acceptable. Didn't sing the Quran. It says you can marry someone who hasn't menstruated. It's God's word. Who are you to say that God's word is wrong? Like, that's the thought process we're working with.

[A]

So is there anything else you encountered at this time that you're like, oh, my gosh.

[B]

And I guess there were other things. Yeah.

[A]

Because I think what would happen. Right. Is if a Christian encountered things about his faith, he would then seek. Like think of the destruction of the Canaanites or something like that. I could see a Christian encountering those verses and being scandalized by them. And then he would go and seek the wisdom of other Christians to try to interpret them. Did you try to do that?

[B]

So in Islam, there's a similar concept. So in Christianity, we have. We have to view the scriptures in the lens of Christ. We have to see the Old Testament as Christ. Like he's going to come and fulfill it. Islam has a very similar concept called abbreviation. I believe that the word is in which any later verses that contradict the earlier verses, they wipe them out. So the later verses are the ones you go with. Oh, okay. So there's an issue, though. Muhammad's life, the beginning of it, was very peaceful. The very end of it is where all the, well, pedophilia, like war, like sex slavery, all that stuff comes in. And. And that's why Muslims. And since Muhammad's like, Second period of his life till today are still in that second period. They're in attack mode right now. They're trying to conquer the world. That's like the vision of Islam is to take over the world. And it's take over the world basically by any needs necessary. Like, any needs that we can use, any way we can do it, we're going to do it. And to the extent that they will lie, and there's this concept called taqiyah, which means, like, hiding the truth. And they'll do this. They'll say, like, I've done it. And it's basically like, yeah, we believe in Jesus and like, yeah, oh yeah, he's the son of God in like a metaphorical sense. And didn't, you know, like Constantine, like, created Christianity in three hundreds and that John never existed. And they know these things are false, but it's okay to say it in order to make the Christian become a Muslim. So that concept of hiding the faith or finding the truth of what's going on in order to spread the message of Islam is like, it's okay.

[A]

Was that something taught to you explicitly or just something you.

[B]

It was something that was taught, like, not like we used to do this, but it was more like, if you want to tell people about Islam, you can lie. Like, just. Just make it up. Like, it was like, literally people have told me just make stuff up in order for them to come Muslim. And actually this happened during the Egyptian revolution in 2011, where the Muslim Brotherhood, they took power of the country, and they're basically like. They're not like Hamas, but they. It's like Hamas light, basically. I think it's kind of how it is. And they basically would tell the children who supported them to lie to their parents about what the Muslim Brotherhood was doing and how they were giving out free food and medical supply and they were using taqiyah to do it. So this is a concept that you can use in order to forward the Muslim agenda. And I did it. Muslims do it, and it's done every day. I've seen it in debates all the time where I see a Muslim say something in a debate and I know for a fact he is lying. And he knows he's lying, but that's how they do it. And I don't know how this goes back to where I was in my testimony.

[A]

The atheist was challenging you to read the life of Muhammad.

[B]

Yeah, so the atheist was telling me, I read all this stuff. It's a Monday, and I think Monday night I'd prayed my Night prayer. And on Tuesday I was like, it still bothered me. So I sent out an email to this guy named Ali Dawah. And funny enough, he's actually one of the people who says, like, we know that Muhammad married Aisha at nine years old and we're okay with that. He's one of those people. So I actually messaged him and I said, hey, is this true? Like, about like the sex slavery and all that stuff? The biggest one for me was the sex slavery. I just couldn't imagine a prophet saying that. And he, he messaged me back and he said, I, I'll get back to this, like, don't worry. And I was like, okay, awesome. And he never did. He never got back to me. But I think the reason why he never got back to me because he knows it's true. He's eventually talked about it in debates and stuff. But yeah, he knew. Like, he knows it's true. At least I'm assuming he knows it's true. And most Muslims know it's true to the extent that we were actually joking about it. Once at a family dinner, I was a kid where my dad went to Indonesia and he saw this guy there and he had like five wives. And my dad was like, I saw you on a lot four. And he's like, your right hand possession. And he's like. They started laughing. It's like, see, I can have four, but if my right hand possessions, I can have as much as I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So five, six, seven. It was a joke at the dinner table. I didn't realize how bad that was until I got older. But yeah, so I contacted him. I started doing more research into the life of Muhammad and things just kept popping up that were just like, who were you reading?

[A]

What lives of Muhammad were you reading?

[B]

Muslim. Which are the two most authentic.

[A]

Okay, so you're not reading like Christian propaganda accounts against at this point.

[B]

Christianity is like still far. I couldn't care less what Christianity is talking about.

[A]

I see you're reading what faithful Muslims are saying about Muhammad.

[B]

I'm reading what the whole Sunni Muslim world is like. It's like reading the Council of Trent and the Vatican 2 papers saying that Jesus is not God. Like that's how ground shaking this is. Wow, it's that big.

[A]

And, and what were you reading in these accounts of him that shocked you? The same kind of stuff or other things or.

[B]

Well, the way the revelation happened was very odd. He was in a cave. And this figure, which isn't called Gabriel at the time, the Muslims say it's the angel Gabriel. But at the beginning, he didn't even know it was Angel Gabriel. Started choking him and telling him to recite or read. And Muhammad said, I can't read, I'm illiterate. Then he's running down the mountain and he goes to his wife Khadijah at the time, and she says, don't be scared. I'll take you to this priest. Then he. They take him to his blind priest.

[A]

Like Christian priest, right? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Well, most likely an Aryan or historian.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Because at the time, Arabia is filled with them. So they go to this priest who's blind but somehow knows all the scriptures. Okay. And he tells Muhammad that he's a prophet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that it was the Angel Gabriel that revealed this to you. So Muhammad didn't even think it was the angel Gabriel at first.

[A]

He just encounters a terrifying being who tries to strangle him.

[B]

Yes. In a cave in the middle of Arabia.

[A]

And doesn't he come back to his wife trembling with fear?

[B]

Yeah. The word he used was zembiluni, Zambiluni. Cover me, cover me, I'm shaking. He. It like, the accounts are like an epileptic seizure. Like, he would fall to the ground, shaking and like, foam would come out of his mouth. And the. The companions, like, would be like, oh, Muhammad's getting revelation. Like, and now we can look back and be like, there's probably something medical going on that we have to help this man.

[A]

Yeah. Or demonic possession.

[B]

Yeah, our demonic possession. And so this happens, and Muhammad doesn't hear from this demon or from quote unquote, angel for, like, I don't know if it's a year or two, but it's a period of time. And he gets so depressed that he tries to kill himself. He goes on top of this mountain, Arabia, and he's about to throw himself. Then this being appears again and says, don't do it. Your God hasn't forsaken you. Then he starts getting these revelations all the time and the beginning. There's nothing wrong with these revelations. They'll say, like, you have your religion, I have mine. Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Like, just like, pretty peaceful stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like, there's only one God worship him. And there's even a story about how when Muhammad conquers Mecca, he takes all the idols down, but Jesus and Mary takes the icons of Jesus and Mary. He keeps up there because of, like, the. They're still like huge figures in Islamic faith. So he was trying to, like, convince Christians And Jews at the time to be part of this movement. Eventually, nothing really happens. He has, like 300 followers. Like, the people of Mecca don't really. There's some persecution because Mecca at the time was a place where people went to pilgrimage and to, like, give offerings to different gods. And if he's preaching about one God, then it's going to disturb the, like, economics of the city. So eventually he has to leave and he actually sends the Muslims. He doesn't leave, sorry. He sends the Muslims or the majority of them to Ethiopia, where there's a Christian king. And this Christian king, he belongs to the Eritrean Orthodox Church, so it still exists today. And he actually protects them from persecution. And this is actually kind of ironic because later on, the Muslim conquest, they try to take over the Eritrean king and try to make him convert to Islam. But this Christian king takes him in and protects him and basically they make an alliance with the pagans of Arabia and Muhammad's allowed to preach. But then he goes to Mecca, or, sorry, Medina, which is a different city, and there he becomes this governor of Medina. Like, people could, like, they love him and he gets in control of everything. Now it's not just religion, it's politics, it's the army. It's like, how are we going to separate the food sources for people during the hard months in the desert? And he gets this grudge on the people of Mecca who kicked him out, and he's like, we got to go back to Mecca, take it over. Take over the black box, which is called the Kaaba, and make it for our religion. So he's convinced that this has to come back to Muslim hands and say what you want about Muhammad, but man, he's a genius. He convinced half of Arabia to follow him and to go into Mecca and destroy anyone in his way. And he took over Mecca. And the last thing he did, I'll give him props, was he said, no more bloodshed. We took over Mecca.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That didn't end. Eventually there was bloodshed. But at that point, he's like, there's. There's no more bloodshed. We're going to make this area holy ground. Yeah. And that's when he destroys all the idols. But besides Jesus and Mary, okay. And then at the end, it's most interesting part. So for most Muslims, they believe that Muhammad was illiterate, he couldn't read or write. There's an issue, though. Muhammad's about to die and no one knows who's going to succeed him afterwards. Like, who's going to control The Muslim empire. Because now it's not just like a town. This point, he's like, he's conquered all of Arabia.

[A]

So he goes on from Mecca.

[B]

Yeah, so he goes on from Mecca, he makes Mecca in that area like a holy site. So no bloodshed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But everywhere else he conquers, takes over and they all become Muslim. But now he's sick, he's 63 years old, he's dying. Some people think he's poisoned actually by some like a sex slave. And we actually don't know what killed him, but he's dying and the Companions are around him. And he asked Aisha, well, at this time she's 18, so the nine year old, she's 18 now. He asks her to go and get like something to write on, like some ink or something. Which is interesting because this is when people are asking who's going to lead the Muslim empire after Muhammad? And he says, go, give me something to write on. But I thought he was illiterate. What's he gonna do? Is he gonna draw something? And this is like me thinking, right when I'm reading this, I'm like, what? Like I thought you couldn't read or write. Like, why, why is he writing something for the next like caliph, the next emperor? And the Companions actually stop. Aisha, they say, don't, don't get it. Let him die. So he dies and from day one of Muhammad's death there's been conflict about who should rule the Muslim empire. Okay, so the Companions killed each other for the empire and eventually the Sunnis win. And that's where the Sunni and Shia split happens. And I'm. This is, I summarize all Muhammad's life, basically. There's a lot that will happen in there. But the main things that shocked me was like he fought like 80 wars. He fought like 80 battles and like six major wars and took sex slaves. And what like, how is he leading me to get be holier? Like, which is interesting because the word holy was never used. There's no concept of being holy being like theosis, becoming one with God or. Yeah, it's more like God gave us these commandments to control the world. Once we control the whole world and with the, the Messiah will come back, which is Jesus, their version of Jesus. And I don't know, I was just like, I saw right through it. At the age of 16, I was like, took me from a Monday to a Friday. Took me five days reading this. And I was like, yeah, this is nonsense. He obviously had either. Well, I didn't know about demons at the time. He obviously had some, like, medical issue or he had like, I don't know, he was just a master genius. And this is not from God.

[A]

Did you try talking to your dad about it during this time? No. Why?

[B]

The punishment for leaving Islam is death.

[A]

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[B]

I would only have caused him hurt. Yeah, it would have never been good. Nothing good would have came out of that conversation.

[A]

But I mean, even to try to refortify your own faith. Did you ever go to him going, hey, I'm trying to understand this. This doesn't make sense to me.

[B]

I don't know. No, I don't know why. There's no reason for it, but at that. I just saw my. Saw my dad. Like, well, he's a good guy. He wouldn't harm anyone and this is giving him peace. Why should I disturb him? Like, I just came to the conclusion that's not true. So I just was like, why should I take away his peace?

[A]

You've heard what Thomas Aquinas has to say about.

[B]

I know, yeah.

[A]

Could I read it anyway?

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

For those at home, here is Thomas Aquinas a direct translate, a direct quote. He says Muhammad so quote, seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this is not unexpected. He was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest intellect. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration. For a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms, which are science not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. There you are.

[B]

Yeah, I've read what Thomas Aquinas has to say.

[A]

So after reading that, that sounds like what you've just said to me about your revelation during that one week of reading the hadith and other accounts of Muhammad's life. That's kind of what you've come to, I think sex slavery wasn't here. He didn't do that. But, well, kind of he did. Talking about the concupiscence of the flesh. Yeah.

[B]

I think Muhammad was probably the most influential man minus Christ to ever walk the earth and not in a good way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just left Islam after reading that.

[A]

How did you. What? So, yeah, tell me how that happened. Did you make a decision gradually? Was it.

[B]

I remember exactly what happened.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I was with my friend the atheist and his girlfriend at the time. They were sitting at a park and it was beautiful. Like Nova Scotia in the summer is amazing. So we're sitting there and we're just looking at the sea or at the ocean and we're just having a good time. And I remember we're talking about this, like, all the issues I'm reading, and I say, I think I believe in Islam because it gives me comfort. And as soon as I said that, I left Islam because I couldn't care less about comfort. I cared about the truth. And I've always told people, even at 16, like, who cares if you're comfortable? Like, what matters is what's reality. And I just learned that probably from growing up with disability and, like, being in hospitals, that you don't have to be comfortable. You have to know the truth of your situation.

[A]

I want to get back to Islam and you're leaving it. But I do want to ask you about your disability. You referenced it, but didn't explain exactly what was going on.

[B]

So I'm just I have glaucoma, so I was born with it. And so I'm blind in my left eye, and I got pretty good vision in my right eye.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I can't drive right after that, so. Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

So I just live with it. I take medicine for it to keep the eye pressures good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's been a part of my life forever. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's funny, like, some people, when they see me, they kind of pity it and they're like, oh, like, maybe he needs help saying something. And then that's fine if I do, but when something's a part of your life forever, you don't really think about it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

As is a problem. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. So at that point, did you think God doesn't exist? Atheism is the way for me, Given that your friend was atheist, so I.

[B]

Left the part out. It's backtrack around four years. Four years. Two years. Sorry. Back in Egypt, I had an Orthodox friend, Right. Coptic Orthodox friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And every, like, like, PE class, we were just super lazy. We didn't want to, like, run 10 miles a day just because, like, they'd have people from the American army train us to, like, to basically do PE class. And I'm like. The guy was like, you know what a mile is? And we're like, yeah. And you're like, run five of them right now. And I'm like, bro, it's like 40 degrees Celsius outside. Can we not do this? So we would just, like, sneak in the back and walk and just talk about stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he. I have to give credit to him, actually. I'm not going to credit to him because he's still in Egypt. So I'm going to. I'm going to not say his name. But if it wasn't for him, I would never go on this journey. He was with me in PE class, the whole, like, grade 8 and grade 7 and a little bit of grade 9. And we would talk for hours about Christianity, Islam, politics, whatever the heck's going on. And we thought we knew everything. We're like 14 years old. We didn't know anything, but we thought we were geniuses or, like, yeah, we got like, this is the right way to do life or whatever. And every once in a while, he'd share his faith with me and he would tell me stuff about the Trinity, about God. He's love. So, like, he's this relational being, so he has to love someone, um, or something. Like, oh, like, what. What better prophet is there than God himself. And I'm like, what? What do you mean? What better prophet is there than God himself? It's like, that makes no sense to me. At one time, he said something like, would it be better, like, let's say you have, like a bunch of ants and you want to lead them somewhere. Would it be better to just like, keep sending other ants to them or you become an ant, talk to them in their language? And I was like, it's a really cool analogy, but I guess it'd be better to become an ant. Yeah. And so then one day he. He asked this. He said, I want you to go in your room and pray to God and ask him who he is.

[A]

This is your friend?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And he's a Coptic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I go to my room that night and I say simple. I say a simple prayer. I say, God, if you're Allah, I want to have a dream of Mecca. I don't know why I said this. I just did. If you were to go out the Christians, I want to see Jesus on the cross. And I went to bed and I have this dream. And in the dream there's this huge crowd. And I'm walking through the crowd, like, little by little, getting closer to the middle. And I see these people crying, some are laughing. And I look up and I see three people on crosses. And at the time, I didn't know that two other people were dying with Jesus. No one ever told me about the thieves on the cross. And I look at Jesus and he looks at me and his face is super bloody. I'm getting goosebumps just talking about this. I remember it like it was yesterday. And I, he, he. I just looked at him and he looked at me and that was it. The dream ended. And I woke up at 3am and I convinced myself I hallucinated and that I don't want anything to do with that. You know, I said, hey, give me a dream. But I might have convinced myself about the dream. You know, I just had to make. Make stuff up that, like. But the dream never left me. So all this time, like, through the whole story, I was just saying about, like, going in Egypt as a Muslim, then going back to Halifax and telling people about Muhammad's life to becoming, like, not religious. I still remembered this dream. This is still in the back of my mind. And so when I leave Islam, for some reason, I just ignored any concept of becoming a Christian. But I told people about this dream and they can vouch for this. Like, people in my life before I became a Christian, I'D be like, hey, do you think, like, if there was a God, he'd speak to you in a dream and he'd be like, ishmael, it's like, I think you're smoking too much. Cool. Yeah.

[A]

Just wonder.

[B]

Yeah. And I tell my atheist friend, like, yeah, like, I had this dream of Jesus on the cross, like when I was a kid. Do you think it means anything? And he's like, means you had the flu. I don't know. Like you just come up with anything. I'm like, yeah, you're probably right. And I just didn't think about it at all. Like some. Something just made me not want to think about Christianity. So I decided to just become this nihilistic, quote, unquote atheist.

[A]

Is this after you're leaving?

[B]

After I left Islam.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think for a good year and a half or maybe two years, I generally didn't believe there was a God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I generally, like. I hear Christians say, I think most atheists actually believe there's a God. But they don't, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Want to say it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That wasn't me. I generally didn't believe there was a God. I was like, maybe the universe is an endless thing. Maybe it creates itself back and forth like a. The boomerang. I didn't know the answers and I started not to care anymore. Until one day I was doing drugs and I was with the few friends. And it wasn't just any drugs. It was just like regular, normal, like weed and alcohol, actually. But this kind of shows you that weed and alcohol can do huge damage. I went into psychosis and they had to call the hospital and they put me in. This wasn't an ambulance. I don't remember any of it. But I think either it was an ambulance or my brother drove me to the hospital and all they remember is I was like. Or all they said that happened is that I was like foaming from the mouth or something, or I was unconscious. But the whole time I was saying, allah, God save me. That's what I said. And then I woke up at home and my family sat me down. They're like, ismail, like, you almost died yesterday. I was like, what do you mean? Like, cuz in my mind nothing happened. I don't remember any of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're like, this is what happened. And my friend, he saved a video of like the. For 10 seconds just to show me afterwards.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And eventually he deleted afterwards. He's like, we're not like, just so you know. And that never happened again. But I Think it was because I was so distraught about there being no God and I was filling the hole in my heart with as much marijuana and alcohol and whatever the heck I can get my hands on that. It was just killing me on the inside. I was dying on the inside.

[A]

How was your mom and dad? Surely by now they are aware that you've left Islam.

[B]

No, my dad isn't.

[A]

He wasn't?

[B]

No.

[A]

Did he just think you were a bad Muslim then? Were you going to.

[B]

My dad has a lot of leeway. Like, again, how I said, because I was visually impaired, like, he thought God would just be more lenient on me. There's just like. It's a weird part.

[A]

If you weren't going to the mosque with him, it was okay.

[B]

It was okay. He never actually forced us. No, he. The. The Islam I grew up with was very like, solafide Islam. It was like, if you believe it, it's good enough.

[A]

That'll do.

[B]

Yeah, it's fine. You think Muhammad's prophet's epic? Like, there you go. So he was like, as long as they believe, it's good. So, okay, that happened. And I made a pact with God, the God I didn't believe in. I think God, if you don't fix my life within, like, 90 days, I'm going to, like, end my life. That's what I said. I don't want to live anymore. And I made this pact with this being that I don't even think exists.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then I go to university. And the first week of university, I meet this guy. His name is Michael Sloan.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's funny enough, his conversion happened by watching your videos.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And he. He's.

[A]

How did that happen?

[B]

I actually don't know. He never told me the full story, but he told me that, like, he watched. I watched this guy named, like, Matt Frad. He's really cool. I grew up Catholic, but he really made me, like, a follower of Jesus. And I was like, that's awesome, man. Like, leave me alone.

[A]

Yeah. Really happy for you and Matt Fred.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know who that is, but it's epic. And he. He was a Catholic missionary actually. On the university with cco. Yeah. Catholic Christian outreach.

[A]

Praise God.

[B]

Yeah. They do amazing work.

[A]

They do.

[B]

And he was handing out these, like, things to sign or whatever. So I go up to him, I put my name, I put my phone number, and I forget about it completely. I go home, and at 10pm at night, about to go to bed, I think I'm like, hitting my vape or Something stupid. And all I see, it's like, hi, this is Michael from Catholic Christian Outreach. Would you like to meet up tomorrow and talk about, I don't know, like, what a faith study is, which is this program they do? And I was like, no, I don't. I really don't want to meet up. I'm very happy. He said, well, we got free, like, you know, pizza and stuff. And I was like, classic. Hey, man. Yeah, that's epic faith study. Yeah, I have faith. So I go in to this chaplaincy in the university, and all I see when I walk in, and I'm in shock, right? Because I don't really know Christian Christians. I know Christians that are like, yeah, I thought Christianity was dead. Like, it's a dead religion. People go to church, like, on a Easter because they have eggs or something. I don't know, like, something's going on. But I walk into this chaplaincy area, and the first thing I see is a nun praying the rosary. I look to my right, there's this man, like, he's like, sitting like this in, like, in prayer. And he's just like. He looks up, he does a sign of a cross. He's like, glory to God. That guy's one of my best friends now. Really? Yeah. And then I look to my left and people, like, reading their Bibles as highlighters. And I'm like, where the heck am I? Like, what is this? And I go into this little room where I meet Michael, and it's a little, like, chapel area with, like, the crucifix and the altar and there's some chairs there. And I was like, okay, interesting. I look in the window and there's this guy with a collar thing. And I'm like, oh, that's like a reverend.

[A]

One of those priest things.

[B]

Yeah, I've seen those in the movies. And he. I think you know him, actually. His name's Father Craig Cameron. Yes. So he's sitting there and he's working on his computer. Wow. I meet with Michael and we start talking and start telling me about this faith study thing. And the reason why I agreed to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was because I want to convince everyone in this chaplaincy area that there was no God.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I walked in there every single day for the first semester of university and tried to convince them, and I failed the first semester university because I didn't go to class. I just went from 9am to 4pm just went there and argued with them every day.

[A]

And did you get any converts?

[B]

Nope, not one. Not one person became an atheist. But I'll tell you one thing, they. They were starting to really get to me because they were very nice, even though I was an asshole to them there. I was like, yeah, you guys are really weird. You think God's gonna save you now? Like, if you're on a plane? And they're like, yeah, he will. I'm like, oh, really? Okay.

[A]

Unironically. Yes.

[B]

Yes. It's like, I'm going to heaven. Because I'm like, okay, that's epic. I just want to.

[A]

I just want to pause right here and say thank you to cco, to the good Andre and his bride and the excellent work they're doing up in Canada.

[B]

They do amazing.

[A]

I mean, it's because of the ministry that they're engaged in that you came to the faith. Really?

[B]

It is. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Glory to Jesus Christ.

[B]

Like, if it wasn't for them, I would never have met.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Any Catholics or any Christians in general. And, yeah. So I come back every day, I talk to them. I discuss with him. More like argue, actually. I just argue every day with him. And then one day, it wanted a faith, I guess. Lesson two. It's the story of the Prodigal Son. And Michael's reading it from, like, the Gospel of Luke, about how the son comes back and the father forgives him no matter what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm sitting there and I'm like, wait, you mean, like, he's not gonna punish him? And Meg's like, no, but he took half his inheritance. Like, I don't know, man. I didn't have a son, but if my brother took all my money and then came back saying, hey, let's be friends, I think. I think I'd have a few words to tell him, you know? And he's like, no, but God loves us. Like, every day we wrong him, but if we come back to him, he can save us. And it baffled me so much.

[A]

It's so funny you say that. Forgive me for interjecting, and perhaps you've already heard me talk about this with Jacob Imam on the show. And Jacob will forgive me if I'm mistaking some of these elements of the story, but Jacob's father was Muslim.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And converted on his deathbed. And I believe on his deathbed was read the Prodigal son for the first time. And just like you were shocked, he thought he misunderstood something because he was sure that the point of the story was that the father was going to beat him.

[B]

I. I thought at least pay the money back, like, anything. Like, yeah, but the Point of story was like total forgiveness no matter what. And I was like, so God's not gonna do anything? He's not gonna like total forgiveness. But they gave me like 10 bucks. Nothing. Like. And I started crying. I started bawling my eyes out in this faith study, which is awkward for Michael because it's a one on one faith study.

[A]

It's like you and another dude.

[B]

Yeah, he's in there and he's like, yes, they're there. Like he doesn't know what to do.

[A]

Would you like a Kleenex?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I just, the whole concept baffled me because my entire life I thought God was like, maybe I. If I just do good works or maybe I just like, I don't know, say like a good morning Jesus or Allah or whatever and I'll get to heaven. Something, I gotta do something. Yeah, right. There's some exchange that has to occur. But this deity didn't want anything from me. And that stuck with me. I still thought it was nonsense, but it stuck with me. This cool story. And eventually I leave and I like, I leave the room and I sit down and the Christians are chatting, whatever. And then Michael comes back out and he's like, hey, we're going to Prince Edward island, which is the next province over from Nova Scotia. We're going there for like this like cottage like Thanksgiving thing. If you want to come, you know, it's up to you. And I was like, at this point I made no friends university because I spent the entire day arguing with Christians. And I was like, in a way they kind of became my friends. Like we weren't just arguing anymore, we were arguing and then like, hey, let's get dinner and talk about it more, you know, so we're getting really close. And I was like, man, I've been calling them idiots this whole time. And they just invited me to go to like on a vacation, like for free. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. And. And I was a complete idiot. The whole trip up to Pei, I was like, they were listening to this pastor talk about Moses, explain the Red Sea. And I was just sitting there giggling like hahaha. You guys really believe Moses existed? I don't know. Something stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we get there, we get to the cottage and there's 15 of us and I'm the only non Christian. I'm starting to realize this as if like there's like a pot.

[A]

It's a trap.

[B]

Yeah, there's some type of trap going on. So we get to the cottage and I realize it's Saturday, tomorrow's Sunday, and they're all talking about mass. And like, what, are we going to mass tomorrow? I'm like, shoot, I got to go to mass. No, I'm going to stay here. And I thought about it, look outside my window, and the nearest house is like 500 kilometers away. And I'm like, I'm not going to get murdered here. So I'm going to go with them to mass. So I dress up in a nice little shirt and I go to mass. I Sitting there and, man, mass is weird from a non. Someone who did not grow up.

[A]

What was that like? And don't be polite. Just exactly what did it.

[B]

The most cultish thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah, I. I've. I was never going to come back because I had no concept of what Christians do. Like, all I know is like, a guy sits there and talks. That's what I thought. It's like a sermon. Yeah, everyone's going up and down at the same time. They're going up for some bread and then. But I can't get it. What's up with the cup? And then like, who's this lamb you're talking about?

[A]

They gave me pizza. Why can't I have the bread?

[B]

Yeah, that's so weird. And the whole thing. Thing is just like. And then this other guy made him weirder. Like, you know, he say, like, peace in Christ. He turns to me and he sees. He. He looks at me straight in the eyes and he says, peace of our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Something like that. Like a whole sentence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, that's epic. Thanks so much, man. I appreciate it. I'm going to sit down now.

[A]

Cheers.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, cheers. And then. And then they. They're like, yeah, you can go up for a blessing. And I'm like, I don't think. No, I'm good. I'm just gonna sit in the corner. And I remembered a sermon. And the sermon was directed to every question I asked him. And I was like, man, did they talk to the priest? Like, they must have asked him. They must have called him up like, hey, this atheist guy keeps asking us these questions. He must. Like, he must know. But obviously that was just God speaking through the priest. And then the mass ends, and this random woman comes up to us, and she's like, I want to invite all 15 of you guys to my house for a Thanksgiving dinner. I just felt called by the Holy Spirit, who. I'm like, I Don't know who the heck that guy is, but sure. Like, sure. Yeah, I love him, too. And my first thought was, again, this is how you get murdered in movies. Like, we're going to this random person's house for Thanksgiving dinner. Like, who are we giving thanks to, the devil? Like, I don't want to know. Like, and. But they're all like. Because they're Christians and they're all happy. Go lucky. They're like, yeah, of course. We love to go. And I'm just like, okay, I guess I'm going with them to Thanksgiving dinner. And it was so weird. We're driving to this woman's house in the middle of nowhere, and, like, the sun is shining on our car. It's, like, following us. It's. It's so strange. And by the time you get to, like, the woman's house, the sun shines on her house, and the whole. The whole rest of the sky is, like, cloudy. And everyone's like, oh, it's a miracle. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, guys, come on. Come on. Your bar of miracles are solo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We go in, and they. They. They do this whole prayer thing before the dinner. And it's the first time I really seen someone actually pray. Like, in Islam. Like, it kind of just, like, there's, like, recited prayers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they were, like, talking to Jesus as if, like, he's in the room with them. Like, jesus, we want to thank you for our cousin who was healed yesterday. But I'm like, cancer. And I'm like, is he here? Like, I'm like, who are you talking to? And then they would go around the room and be like, yeah, Jesus, this semester was really hard, but thank you so much for helping me get through with my grades. And it got to me, and I was like, amen. That's all I said. Like, amen. And then they're like. They start laughing.

[A]

That's a Christian word.

[B]

Yeah, I heard that in the movie.

[A]

Movie.

[B]

Same one with the reverend, but, yeah. And then they. They had their whole grace thing that seemed kind of culty, too, because they're all saying the same words at the same time. And it ends. We have a good dinner. Eventually, we sit in this living room area, and it's like, there's probably 25 of us in this house, and it's not a huge house, so it's very crowded. So some of us are sitting on the floor, and some of us stay on couches, and, like, three or four of us are playing guitar, doing praise and worship and this is the moment really hit me. Like, I'm looking up, and they're playing the song 10,000 Reasons. And the words, bless the Lord, all my soul. Worship his holy name keep ringing in my ears. Bless the Lord. Bless the Lord. Bless the Lord. I look around the room, everyone's smiling. They're all in this trance praising God. I. I'm just like, there's only two options. They're all on drugs, which they're not, because I've been with them for, like, three days now. Are there something to this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I whispered to myself the first real prayer of my life. I said, jesus, if you're real, show me right now. And as soon as I said that, I became a Christian. As soon as I said that, I didn't know at the time what it was, but the Holy Spirit entered my body in a way that just shook me. I had goosebumps. And that hole that was filling up with drugs just filled up. It was whole. I wasn't missing anything. And then I started crying. And then the music kind of slowing down. People are looking around like, what's going on with Ishmael? And I had to leave the house. Then this woman follows me, and she's like, are you okay? And I look at her with tears in my eyes, and I'm like, I think Jesus is real. And she's like, do you know what that means? I was like, no, but he's real. And I look up to the sky, the moon shining, and this is literally what I say. Hey, dude. I don't know what happened, but that was cool. We'll have to talk about this later, but I want to go back. They're worried about me. I love you, Jesus. That was my first prayer. I walked back in, and everyone's looking at me, and I'm still crying. And this woman, the woman who invited us to the house, she gets this, like, holy oil. She starts marking me. She's like, the wounds of Christ on your head, on your arms. And every till today, I feel like my feet and my arms in my head. And those marks are different. Like, something about it. Maybe it's a placebo, maybe it's not true, but it feels different to me.

[A]

Those parts of your body, is that what you mean?

[B]

Yeah. Like those. Those marks where she marked the oil are different. And then I look around the room, and everything is beautiful. I don't want to die anymore. I see this couch. I see the fabric in the couch, and it's the most beautiful couch I've ever seen in my Life. And there's, like, a dog's piss stain on it, but it's the most beautiful couch I've ever seen in my life.

[A]

It's a beautiful piss stain.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, what? This is amazing. God created this. And I look out of the room. The most beautiful people ever seen in my life. And it was a beauty I've never even thought about before. It wasn't like, when you see, like, a woman who has, like, a beautiful figure. Yeah. Or like, a beautiful sun. It was. It was like a beautiful soul. These individuals were beautiful because they were made in this image of this being who is God. And I looked at my watch, and it was October 7, 2018, at 9pm okay. And I gave my life to Christ that time. And I never looked back.

[A]

On the feast of Our lady, the Holy rosary.

[B]

I didn't even know that's what it was, but glory to God. Like, I just. I knew what it was. And I knew. I knew who he was. I knew Jesus was God. I knew he died for me. And I knew what I had to do is give my life to him. I didn't know any theology at the time. I didn't know anything about Catholic, Protestant, or. I didn't know nothing. All I know is Jesus is he saved me. It's through him that I'm saved. And now, the next day, we're going back to Halifax, and they're doing their praise and worship, and I'm singing with them. I'm going, yeah, I'm going crazy. And then they drive me. So my house is on, like, a big hill. So they put me at the end of the hill, and they. I get out of the car, and I'm walking up the hill, and apparently my aunt's driving down. I didn't even notice her because I'm so still in a daze from everything. And she calls me and she's like, oh, I see you walking up to the house. Or do you meet a lady? I was like, what do you mean? It's like, you look like you've won the lottery. And I'm like, oh, I don't know. Like, I feel great. And I walk into the house, and my mom's there, and I'm like, hey, mom, how's it going? She's like, why are you smiling so much? I was like, I'll tell you later. Just. It's going great. It's going great, Mom. And then I went to my room, and I think for, like, the next, like, two hours, I cried my eyes out. And a Good cry. Like a beautiful cry. Like how beautiful God is that he died for me. Like, why God died for me. God died like the cross. The cross kept coming to me. And then the next day I went back to university and I was the one preaching in the chaplaincy. So there you go. So then I just sign up for RCIA, and by April 20, 2019, Easter Vigil, I was baptized. First Communion and Confirmation.

[A]

Glory to Jesus Christ.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you have any obstacles to overcome? I mean, did you. Did you have any good reasons, do you think, to be an atheist that had to be worked out or.

[B]

Funny thing is, no, once that night happened, I didn't.

[A]

But what were your reasons prior to that? Just that religion was stupid or that life seemed senseless.

[B]

No evidence.

[A]

There was no evidence for Christianity. Did you have any evidence that God didn't exist that you would present?

[B]

No, it was more just like it was wish fulfillment. Yeah.

[A]

It was like, of telling themselves a story that made life seem more bearable, that kind of thing. And you weren't going to be naive, like. Like them?

[B]

Yes, exactly. I was too good for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just didn't see the purpose for it. I was. I thought it was like, it's better to be depressed and know the truth than live a lie and be happy. So. Yeah, it didn't really. I don't know, like, something just changed, like, the way I thought, like, overnight, it was really like. No, I. I mean, Damascus Road moment.

[A]

I had the same experience. And it's funny, as you said, that I remembered. I haven't thought of this in a long time, but when I came home after my conversion to Christ, a lot of people said the same thing to me as they did to you. And I'm just now remembering this. People would say, you bloody won the lottery.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. It's. It's a shame, maybe, that people don't say that to me as often, but at the time, I mean, I was. I felt like my heart was like a balloon and it was just. It was about to burst with joy. I couldn't contain it.

[B]

But I feel like even when we're down in our faith life, like, we're desolation, it's still different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like I'm. I'm going through this depressing season, but I know there's something different, like, marked in me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than before that conversion.

[A]

All right, so your parents clearly know you're a Christian now. No, stop it.

[B]

Nope. I go, my mom finds.

[A]

Oh, no, I mean now.

[B]

Oh, now.

[A]

Yeah. As of this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're doing. Yeah, 100.

[A]

I was gonna say, because by the time this comes out, you better find somewhere to hide.

[B]

I'll be screwed. But no, like, they know now. Everyone knows. Yeah, but so my mom finds out first.

[A]

How did she find out?

[B]

And it's the funniest thing ever. So I'm wearing this huge, like, parka coat because it's like the middle of winter in Canada. And I have my rosary, which I don't even know how to use. I was like, oh, cool. Like it's lacrosse. And I just put in my. I put in my parka and it's like a button and a zipper. So I zipper it in and I put the button on so it can't go anywhere. I walk in the door, the first thing that happens, it falls. And the cross is facing her. It's like. I was like, what? How did that happen? And she looks at me and she's the first thing, she says, please, no. And I was like, mom, just sit down.

[A]

I can explain.

[B]

I was like, mom, just sit down. And she's like, she's. She starts bawling. She's like, please, please. Like, religion ruins families, like. And I'm like, mom, I can't do it. And she practically begged me to deny Jesus that night. Oh. And as much as my heart wanted to do it, I couldn't do it because I knew it was true.

[A]

I know, Jesus, you love your mom. You don't want to see her. I can't see it yet.

[B]

And just because she grew up in the Joe's Witness religion, there was so much pain around that area. Yeah, she didn't know. Yeah, she was afraid for me. She was really afraid. I joined a culture. Then my brother found out. The second person. I texted my brother because he was living in.

[A]

So did your mom say. Did your mom tell you that she would or would not tell your father?

[B]

He said, she said, whatever you do, do not tell Baba, which is dad in Arabic. Like, don't tell Baba. And I told her, like, I won't tell him right now because I have to sit him down. Like that's not a thing I can just like slide into conversation. Like, btw, yeah, by the way, I'm going to church. Goodbye. But yeah, I tell my brother the second person over text and. And I. I don't know how to call him and tell him this. Like, cuz he's in Toronto, right? And I'm like, okay, hey, his name is Omar. So I was like, hey, Omar, just want you to know that I love you very much. So does God. Jesus Christ is. Lord. I given my life to him. The Holy Spirit's real. I know it's true. And I love you very much. I love you. That's it. Something like that.

[A]

And then were you just sitting with.

[B]

I sent it. I went to bed.

[A]

Turn the phone off.

[B]

I went to bed.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Woke up the next morning and the text said, oh, no problem, man. Do whatever you want.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Two hours later, he calls me. He's like. I just read it, actually. He's like, what happened? Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. It's like, Ishmael, I think you gotta. You have to go to hospital. Like, you have to go to hospital. Like, this is not normal. People don't convert to Christianity. People leave Christianity. Or, like, the Christianity. Like, the paganism and, like, the priests touching the kids. And why, like, do you not know that they drink? They get alcoholic people to come and drink in their churches. And I'm like, okay. Like, this man doesn't know what's going on. And I try to be as calm as possible with him. But he loved you.

[A]

And he was trying to.

[B]

He was trying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then I started getting, like, not love, but more like, very hurtful.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, my mom sent an article once about schizophrenia and how, like, maybe I have schizophrenia. Kai told her about the dream. My brother would say things I can't think of as, like, a specific quote, but it's more like, you're smarter than this. Like, I never thought you were just stupid. Like, yeah, you're so unintelligent. Whenever I try to share my faith, he'd be like, I want you to never talk to me about this effing Jesus. Lord, forgive me ever again. And. And then my dad finds out the last. And he finds out actually, years later how I was. How did this happen? So I started in university. I started with a degree in English, and then halfway through, the Lord put it on my heart to do theology. So I changed everything and I went to theology. My dad found out I was doing theology, and he was confused. He was like, what's. What are you learning about? And I told him, like, the New Testament. Like, I was like, I'm just doing this for research stuff, just testing the.

[A]

Waters to see how he might react or.

[B]

Well, I don't think he would care. Like, he'd be like, oh, like, to find out what they believe and why it's wrong. I was like, yeah. Like, I don't know. Like, yeah, yeah, something. There's something about Arab culture where if you don't talk about it, it's not true. Like, he must have known somewhere deep down as something was going on. Yeah, but if you don't talk about it, it's not true. So he was just, like, living in denial. He even told his friend once that, like, yeah, my. My son's learning about the New Testament to prove the Christians wrong. I'm like, I never said that, but okay. I was like, sure. And, yeah. So, like, he started finding out, like, little clues where I'm gone on Sundays. He thought I volunteered at a church once for, like, some homeless thing. He's like, why not at the mosque? Go at the Word. The church is better than us. And I was like, no. I just. I don't know. I don't get along with people at the mosque. I never lied to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I never said I was a Muslim. I never said I believed in Allah or anything like that. But I had to for a little while, just think strategically about how to tell him, because I was generally scared for my safety. Like, not because he would ever want to hurt me, but the shock might make him, like, hit me or something. I don't know what would happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Eventually I told him indirectly, without even knowing it. He really got on my nerves once and talking about, like, I should change my degree. And. I don't know. I go out with some friends and I text him this quote from the Quran, the one. I actually said it earlier in this podcast where I say, you have your religion, I have mine. And he calls me. He's like, what do you mean, you have your religion, I have mine. I was like, you know, we have believe different things. Like, what do you mean you believe different things? Are you a Muslim?

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And he's asked that, and it came right out. My mouth is like, no, Papa, I'm not a Muslim. And I hear him crying on the phone, and I'm like, I. I go home right away. I go home and I see him on the ground shaking, like, in tears, like, scared, like, praying in Arabic, please, God, don't send him to hell. Please, God, don't send to hell. And my brother is calling me because he found out what happened, because my mom probably told him, and he's like, blaming me. Like, you're the reason why this family is breaking up. You're the reason why all these issues are happening. It's. You're the reason why my mom's looking at me like, look what you've done. And I Want to help him. I want to do something like, well, sure, we don't get along about everything, but he's still my dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He raised me. He. Without him, I wouldn't be where I was today. And eventually he gets up, he sits on the couch, and we sit there. And he said, tell me the whole story. So I told him the whole story. And I just told you. And he said, okay. Okay. I just need to be alone. And I said, I love you. He said, okay. And for a whole year, he never said I love you back. After that, he never said I love you back. He, I would hear him crying at night.

[A]

Oh, bless him.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, I once caught him. Sorry, this is really emotional. I once caught him, like, outside on the, on the deck. Just because he lived by the water. He was chilling by the water and he's like praying in Arabic. It's like, what have I done to deserve this? Yeah, it was really hard on him. Now we're at a point where I just told him that I'm engaged. I'm going to be getting married at a church.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you so much. And he said, I told him, you don't have to come to the mass, but you're welcome to come to the dinner. And he sent me a heart. So I'm assuming that's good. You know, men, we all, it's like a thumbs up, like, hey, dad, I'm drowning. Please send me a heart. And I was like, oh, he's got it. So I think he might actually show up for the dinner. So he's come a very long way. I'm actually very proud of him for how far he came. All that being said, my family is nowhere near Christ at all. Like, nothing has changed in that area, which hurts me a lot because I actually just want the best for them. I would love them to know. I would love for them to know the love that Christ has for them as just people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About, like, who they are.

[A]

Your dad sounds like a beautiful man. He sounds like he's got a big heart.

[B]

He's a very hard work.

[A]

Best for you.

[B]

He came to Canada with nothing. He worked for 10 years or something, became a citizen. And he, like, he's a very conservative man, so he doesn't agree with, like, gay marriage and all that stuff. But he always taught me, like, you respect everyone in Canada. They've done the best for you.

[A]

Isn't that beautiful? Like, he respect the country that welcomed us in.

[B]

He welcomed. Yeah. Like, the Middle east is not a safe place. Like, without Canada, we Would have been living in poverty in Egypt. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My dad didn't come from, like, a rich family in Egypt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, he's a great man.

[A]

I mean, I think we, you know, like, it's admirable that your dad prays five times a day. It's admirable that your dad wakes up in the morning and you say, goes to the mosque to pray, even though he doesn't have to accept on Fridays.

[B]

He loves God.

[A]

We can reject our religion and yet find virtue in it and in its practices. And there is something very manly, actually about committing to worshiping God the way you understand it.

[B]

I gotta be honest, like, some of my friends told me to go to Mass at 7am once, and I was very. I went twice, and then I kind of backslid and I just don't do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, my seeing my dad, like, all right. Going to the mosque and it's like 5:00am in the morning, bless him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, he's 73 years old, by the way, and he still fasts Ramadan fully.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the love he has for God is immense. It is huge. And the Islam that he follows is one where. I don't know how he finds his outcome. I know he's read the Hadith, but he. He kind of like, it's like Muslim, like modern Islam or like. Like the everyday Muslim who doesn't actually believe in the violence or doesn't actually believe the terrible things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He. He sees the world in a unique way. So I have a lot of admiration for him. Same for my mom. My mom till today. It hurts her a lot that I'm a Catholic. Specifically a Catholic. She thinks a lot of people deal with the Catholic Church is like, the worst thing in the history of mankind. And that, like, we basically. If we didn't exist, you'd be like, light years in the future. Something like that.

[A]

Sure. And, yeah, not at all true, but.

[B]

Yeah. Again, like, half the hospitals are catching.

[A]

Scientific revolution and advances, big ban on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The leper colony.

[B]

Everything's gone.

[A]

Etc. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I get it.

[B]

Bless her heart still. Yeah.

[A]

I think it is so important maybe to say a word to people watching who are in similar experiences. You know, it is. It is kind of wild because I feel like there we're in this weird generation where the young people are reclaiming tradition that the boomers threw out. Forgive the slur. But, you know, when I. When I kind of grew up, it was about abandoning the faith for partying. But I'm meeting more and more people who are like pretending to go to parties so their parents won't be horrified that they're going to church, you know. And you know, what advice I guess do you have for someone out there who's in the process of converting or who has converted and their parents aren't speaking to them? What have you learned through this whole experience? I want to tell you about Hallow, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hallow.com Matt Frad sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time you can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hallow.com mattfrad I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations. My Lo fi hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hello.com Matt Frad the link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent you could play little bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com Matt Fried.

[B]

Be ready for it to get worse. Like it doesn't get better. I don't want to sugarcoat. Could get better, but always prepare for the worst. Like all the friends that I were with me at the beginning of my conversion, the 15 people that were with me, I only talked to one of.

[A]

Them, those who are not Catholic. You're talking about like this atheist friend of yours?

[B]

No, the 15 people from the like the beginning of the.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Saw me have my conversion.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

None of them talk to me but one person. The.

[A]

The Catholics?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why don't they talk to you?

[B]

This is the saddest thing I'm going to ever say, but I've never been more backstabbed by anyone than Christians.

[A]

Yeah. Why?

[B]

I don't know. Christ. I, I specifically Catholics actually. And that sounds insane to say, but to me it proves the truth almost because it's like of course the people in God's church who are sinners are going to be the worst people. But it's like were there reasons that.

[A]

They turned on you? I don't, we don't have to get into personal things.

[B]

It's not like personal things. It's just, like, stupid arguments are just politics are the way we should face at mass for the altar, like, for the priest.

[A]

And I'm like, people we. We have the most in common with can sometimes drive us nuts. I mean, it's why siblings fight so much, because we do love each other. We are so close. It's a lot easier to get furious with your brother than you would perhaps just a stranger or a friend.

[B]

I'll give you a good example, actually. I had this group chat once, and I invited people to go to this SSPEC mass. And I don't. I don't go to it. I don't really care too much about it. But I said, hey, it'd be nice to go to see what a TLM's like. You don't have to receive. Just check it out. I got so much, like, backlash for that. It was insane. Like, I lost friendships over that one.

[A]

Oh, that's so unfortunate.

[B]

It is unfortunate, but I've never seen a group of, like, people more divided than the one universal church.

[A]

Well, it's important, I think, that people realize if they're looking into Catholicism, that they're not walking into the Garden of Eden.

[B]

That's where I'm kind of getting that. Yeah.

[A]

There's a great deal of snakes and corruption in every institution, including the church. And so if you're becoming Catholic because you've found a perfect community. Oh, wait. Because you definitely haven't found that. Yeah, yeah. It's a wretched community. I mean, you know, it's. It's divinely instituted, and it's where the medicine is.

[B]

I noticed it the first week I became a Christian. I went to a mass and I couldn't receive at the time. I was just sitting there, and the priest preached on why we shouldn't evangelize to Muslims and Jews because they worship the same God. And I'm like, are you. I. I just converted last week. Why am I here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I go to another priest, and he's saying how every single Muslim and Jew is going to be burning in hell. And I'm like, what? Like, how are you guys on the same church?

[A]

How are we pendulum swinging?

[B]

That's what, like, my experience is. Like, you guys are making fun of the Protestants for being united. Not being united.

[A]

Yeah. Like, so why be Catholic then, if there's so much corruption and infighting?

[B]

Because it's true. But also, like, we can go into why I picked Catholicism.

[A]

Yeah. Why not be Coptic or.

[B]

I tried to be Coptic. They didn't want me. Okay.

[A]

So there was some of them. Were you?

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Well, like the Coptic church where I was from was like. How do I say this? I went and talked to, like, the administrative person and they wouldn't let me become Coptic because they were afraid that I was like, a secret, like, Muslim. Oh, trying to come in.

[A]

Well, if any group of Christians should be nervous about that, it's probably them.

[B]

Yeah, No, I didn't even blame them. I was like, this kind of. Actually this makes a lot of sense.

[A]

Like, are you engaging in apologetics to Muslims at all? How.

[B]

Usually online, so I don't video this. Every once in a while.

[A]

You have a YouTube channel.

[B]

Yeah, it's Ish of Arabia. It's so people should go follow you. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. My biggest one, my Instagram, it's also called Ish of Arabia, but that one. I talk to anyone who messages me. I basically, I say, like, if you're a Muslim and you want to debate, message me one on one, we can video chat.

[A]

And have you been doing that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How's that been going?

[B]

They always tend to end it when they realize I speak Arabic.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that does tend to be the go to that. If you're not speaking Arabic, then you haven't actually read the Quran and therefore you are ignorant.

[B]

And yeah, that tends to be it. But a lot of times it's funny too, because the people who message me, they don't realize they don't speak Arabic and then I find out they don't speak Arabic and. But I do. And then they end it. So it's kind of funny. Like, it's kind of ironic how that happens.

[A]

But yeah, I've been getting wind of mass conversions from the Islamic world to Christianity. Have you heard of that? Is that being overplayed?

[B]

I'll tell you one thing, it's underplayed. If anything, I don't think people realize how many Muslims are becoming Christian.

[A]

Tell me about that.

[B]

I know personally at least 100 people, like in my personal, like, life from the.

[A]

From where?

[B]

From the Middle East, Syria, from Jordan, from Yemen. Immigrants who came to Canada or the kids of immigrants that came to Canada or the U.S. or England. Wow.

[A]

Just you alone know about a hundred people.

[B]

They're everywhere. I know a professor in a university that was Muslim his whole life until up to like two years ago and became a Christian. I don't know what it is. Number one thing is dreams and visions.

[A]

I'm hearing that.

[B]

I had a dream of Jesus. Every, every ex Muslim, like maybe I would say 50 to 70% of them explain to me how they. It's always like Jesus or an angel. But nine times out of ten is Jesus saying something either very specific, like, go to this store, meet this man, talk to him. He will tell you the truth.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

Are something like, I am the son of Allah. Like, something like that. Like something so profound. Mine was just him on the cross. That's what I needed. And these people, when they're having these dreams because Jesus is a person in Islam, they're realizing he's not a prophet. Even if the dream is just him, like, smiling at them. There's something about the encounter.

[A]

The Christ is more than a prophet.

[B]

There's something different about him. He's not just a prophet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And these Muslims, they're flocking to Christianity because I think. I think there's like, secular reasons, and it's also like religious reasons, like spiritual reasons, the secular reasons. I would say just the rise of the Islamic state in the 2010s, the Iranian Revolution, like the Islamic revolution, and how terrible that was for the country, Egypt. Like, we had the Muslim Brotherhood in, and that was terrible for the country. And people are looking for other faith besides Islam, and the biggest one's Christianity. Also. I think the spiritual reason or like the reason, the real reason why people are becoming Christian is because the hardest place to reach people is the Muslim world. If you go and preach to any Muslim country and you're. You're caught. If you're like a Western, like, citizen, you leave.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you have to get out of the country. But if you're from that country and you're preaching, you can get killed and get imprisoned. I know someone who. The Jordanian government took his house. They could. There's no law for apostasy in Jordan, but there's a law for public unrest. And so they considered it public unrest. So they took his house, all his finances. So he lives in someone else's house for free. Basically. He can't get a job, nothing. He can't leave the country either. So Egypt, I think if I went back to Egypt, even though I'm not an Egyptian citizen, technically I'm only Canadian. If I was an Egyptian citizen, I can get 10 years imprisonment.

[A]

If you were to go back and.

[B]

They knew I was preaching Christianity, that law has never been, like, refined or changed. It's still there. And of course there's like Saudi Arabia and Iran where the penalty is death. I think it's around 12 Muslim countries that there's some type of penalty for conversion because Muhammad literally says, like, a quote from Muhammad directly. Whoever leaves his religion, kill him. That's it. There's no if, ands, or buts now. There's schools of thought that say, like, should we kill him after three days? Give him time to repent? Maybe three weeks. But there's all the rule is, kill him. But even Muslim countries today, like, are realizing they can't just go around killing people because of, like, I don't know. The rest of the world would not let this happen. So, like, Egypt has, like, 10 years. Jordan's, like, public unrest, stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah. So the Muslim world has a lot of Christians hiding. I would say for every. The statistics in Egypt are, like, 10% of the country is Christian, but I would probably say it's almost as high as 18%.

[A]

Have you personally been threatened?

[B]

Yeah, I was assaulted once.

[A]

But do you want to share that?

[B]

Nothing happened. I forgive the person. Like. Like, they knew I was doing. They came up to me, they punched me, and eventually I just told them I forgave them, and then that was it. I could have took legal charge to them. I don't want to say who it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they might come to Christ one day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I want that to be part of their journey. But I've gotten death threats online, like, a lot. Over Instagram or Instagram, YouTube. I got an email once, so it's really interesting, but I don't know how they got my email. But besides that, like. No, in person, people seem to be okay most of the time because you can't really do much in the Western world. Like, if someone tries to assault me, like, in person in Halifax, like. Yeah, someone's gonna see and just call the cops.

[A]

Yeah. Who's doing the best work right now out there in regards to apologetics to.

[B]

Muslims on YouTube, let's say Sam Shamoon, 100. Yeah, Sam Shamoon. I talked to him a little bit. He's amazing. I love them so much. He now, he's very harsh, but he knows his audience. When it comes to different groups, you have to act in different ways. When it comes to Muslims, you have to be harsh because.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's how they are. When it comes to debating in general, that's like, a part of the religion. When it comes to, like, Mormonism or Latter Day Saints, you have to be, like, kinder and nicer because they're more kind and nice. You have to know the audience you're talking to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I always see, like, comments from other Christians being like, you're so harsh, Sam, on these people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'm like.

[A]

But you realize coming from that culture, he's exactly.

[B]

They need. If you. If you're easy on them, they actually. Some Christians don't realize that if you're not aggressive, they think that you don't actually believe it. So if I don't. If I'm not aggressive about my faith and passionate about it, I'm not yelling and saying slurs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The. Like, the Muslim's mind is like, you must not even believe this. You're not even passionate about it. Why are you so calm?

[A]

Interesting. Yeah.

[B]

In our Western, like, context, we're like, oh, like, he's yelling. He's being so immature. This is so unprofessional. But for their mind, it's like, yeah, he's. He's willing to debate because he believes it so much. He's willing to die for it and legally. And fight this man in the studio.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But meanwhile, we wouldn't do that. So Sam gets it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he. And I think he. The way he's doing is beautiful for Muslims.

[A]

How is he doing it? I haven't watched his videos in a long time.

[B]

He just, like, an example would be like, someone asked, like. Or some would say on his live stream, like, oh, Islam's so beautiful. And then he'll be like, oh, yeah, like when Muhammad mounted Aisha. That's so beautiful. Like, he'll say it like that. And then of course, all the Christians like, oh, it's so unchristlike. But they need to hear it because they never thought about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So who else? Cameron Bertuzzi.

[A]

Yeah. He's doing some more videos, isn't he?

[B]

He is. I wish they had someone on the videos that spoke Arabic because.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does. I think Sam knows some Arabic. He must like, the way he quotes the Quran is like. And his pronunciation is crazy good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So he must have at least grown up, like, speaking some, because I know he's from, like, Syria, Iraq area or he learned some. But for capturing Christianity, I wish they had someone who was more knowledgeable about Islam because I watched his videos about it and it's amazing. But there's some points I can see a Muslim easily. Just, like, rebuke.

[A]

Well, I'd be happy to put you in touch with Cameron. I'm sure he'd be open.

[B]

I would love to talk to him about it.

[A]

He's a good dude.

[B]

Besides that, there's a few people, like, what Was his name David Wood? Yeah, I love David Wood. He's been doing it for years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I knew about David Wood since I was, like, 12, and I don't know. Like, I. I saw a video about him. Like, oh, he's just being stupid. I didn't really think about it too much. And by far the most, like, popular person ever is Nabil Qureshi, who passed away in 2016.

[A]

Have you read his work?

[B]

I read his. What's it called? His autobiography, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. Yeah, that's what it's called. I read that before I became a Christian, after I became a Christian, and before I became a Christian, I was like, okay, so cool. He had some dreams. And then after I became a Christian, I was like, oh, my goodness. This guy's story is, like, amazing. Like, praise God. I knew about him while I was still Muslim in Egypt. I was, like, 13, and I messaged him on Facebook. Be like, hey, why would you leave Islam? I'm really curious, because I wasn't really aggressive. I was just really interested. Yeah, he never got back to me. And then he was really popular at the time. But, yeah, his story in particular has moved Muslims around the world. And he's. He's with our lord now since 2016.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What advice would you have to a Muslim who might be watching this right now? And they're terrified, maybe because of external threats, but maybe because they just don't want to make the wrong decision and they don't want to offend Allah.

[B]

Allah will not be offended because the first words in the Quran is iqra, which means to read or seek knowledge. And if you're truly just trying to find out, I don't think Allah will be offended, because if he is offended for seeking knowledge, then he's a pretty weak God. Same with Christianity. If you're too afraid to go deep into your Bible and find the gory stuff in it because it might offend God, then maybe you're worshiping a different God than the true Jesus. Like, if you. If you think God's gonna be offended for you looking up some stuff online, then that's a whole different discussion.

[A]

I'm sure we will have some Muslims watching this because they're flirting with Christianity and they want to kind of hear, what are some of these converts saying?

[B]

I think a big one, too is, why is the Quran so human? And what I mean by that is like, this is more like. To Muslims, like, I asked myself this sometimes too, when I was Muslim. There's a whole chapter in the Quran that's literally about insulting someone who insulted Muhammad. Like what? You tell me, like, why would the God of the universe reveal a chapter for such a specific event in human history and not like, I don't know, the cure for cancer. Like, you know, I mean, like, why would he. He would not tell us about, like, how the Byzantine Empire is going to fall to Islam or how.

[A]

Well, to be fair, we don't have a lot of those things in the scriptures.

[B]

We do when it comes to Christ. Like, the prophecies about Christ and the Old Testament are so amazing when it compares to Jesus. And the Bible is not claiming to be a scientific book while Muslims, a lot of Muslims claim the Quran has scientific miracles.

[A]

Yeah, tell us about that. Because I've heard, you know, that maybe embryology dates back there and the Big bang is somehow predicted in there. But you would know more than me. So what do Muslims claim the Quran teaches and why are they wrong?

[B]

So we kind of know where these claims came from. So there's one, the Big bang one where it's like, it says how the earth and the sky were together and they separated. So supposedly that's the big bang, which. Sure, let's grant them that one. Okay. Embryology is very off. So we now know today that the bones and the flesh of the embryo are created, are forming at the same time where the Quran says the bones form before the flesh. So it gets it off in some way. And it's actually a direct copy of what the ancient Greeks thought about embryology. So what happened was a lot of the Greek stuff that was going on in ancient Greece was translated into Arabic. And by Muhammad's time, it just got into the Quran. And we see this with other topics. Like the stories about Jesus in the Quran are very gnostic. And we'll finish the scientific miracles first. But the scientific miracles are basically just Greek medicine. One that is very much ancient Greek is that male sperm is created in the backbones because they didn't know where, like, the sperm was made. So it says in the Quran that the male sperm is created in your backbones. And we all know that's not true. Like, it's crazy.

[A]

How do Muslim apologists respond to that today? Do they say it's sort of.

[B]

Well, if you don't speak Arabic, they'll be like, well, in Arabic, backbone also means testicle. But if I say, if I'm speaking with them, they're like, well, you're just an ignorant infidel. And then they'll hang up. So that's what it Seems what happens, I don't know how to respond about it, like in like a public setting or I can debate. I've seen them and they usually just change the subject or they do like Takeya where they lie about something and try to like change the subject something else.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or say that like science has not found out yet that sperm is actually created in the backbones. So they'll actually say, no, science is wrong, the Quran is right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So things like that. The biggest ones for me were actually not the scientific miracles, but the Gnostic texts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That made it in the Quran.

[A]

Yeah, talk about that.

[B]

So there are some strange stories about Jesus in the Quran. Two of the most popular ones is that when Jesus was just born, he speaks in the crib as a baby and he says, I'm the messenger of Allah sent down to you. And he's like a day old. He's speaking. We know where the story is from. It's from the infant Gospel of Thomas. The wording is different. So the same story where Jesus is born like the first day out of the womb and he says, I am the Logos, the word of God, worship me. Something like that. So what the Quran did was take the exact same story and change the words. A really famous one is the clay bird that comes to life where Christ, he takes his clay bird, he blows into it and it becomes like a living bird. And this story is like a direct story from the Arabian Gospel which was written, I don't know if it's called the Arabian Gospel or the Syriac Gospel, one of the two, but it's a Gnostic gospel and it's from the 4th 5th century, so only like 100, 200 years before Islam begins. And it's in Arabia. So the historians and the Aryans and everyone around like Mecca would hear this story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it talks about how Christ creates this bird out of clay. And of course Muslims will just say like, well maybe those are the true gospels.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then the fake gospels are the ones that are in the Bible. But history obviously disproves that. But not just history, if that's true, it would disprove that Jesus is just a human. And the reason why that is is because the way that Christ creates that clay bird or the living bird from clay is the exact same way Allah creates humans from clade and blows into it. So the story is a, it's a parallel to Allah creating humans, creating Adam, flowing into the clay and then Adam becomes a living being. Then Christ blows into this bird, this bird becomes a living being who can create, but God. Now Muslims will say like, oh, well, Christ created with the permission of God. But then that's also an issue because God in Islam cannot, cannot have partners in creation. And if Jesus created something, even it was just that one clay bird with the permission of Allah. That means Allah needed Jesus to create this bird, or he allowed Jesus to share in this divine nature in some way to create this bird. And that one is really troubling to me. At least I know how Muslims like think about it because it goes against the whole concept of how Islam thinks and understands God. And there's this quote in the Quran too, or verse in the Quran where this one's actually crazy because it's mistranslated terribly in English and it goes in Arabic that Jesus, the son of Mary is the word of God and a spirit from him that was cast down, that Allah al Qaha, he cast down from heaven. In English it says Jesus is a word from heaven and created by the spirit of God. Doesn't say that in Arabic at all. Like, the translation is butchered completely. The Arabic literally says Jesus is. It says Jesus is God's word and his spirit cast down from heaven. Basically, that's what it says. And I don't know how anyone can read that and be like, how what? Like, where is he getting this from? Obviously the Gospel of John, he's getting it from the word was with God and the word was God.

[A]

Right. So you have Muhammad plagiarizing. He's both Christian gospels and Gnostic. Gnostic.

[B]

And he's obviously hearing it because he's misquoting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's misquoting them. And I don't like the word. Alcoha is crazy to me because it means cast down. It doesn't mean create. Like, we still use it in Arabic today. Like we meet. Like when I throw something off a building, like it's. That's what the word's used for. So if this is God's word that's thrown down from heaven into the womb of Mary, that sounds very like divine. Like if he was with God from the beginning and then he goes back up to God because, like, they believe Jesus ascended as well. So there's this prophet not dying. He didn't die. Yeah, apparently, of course. And then he like came down, lived like a sinless life, and then before he died, he was saved and ascended to heaven. Yeah, honestly, like, it sounds like Jesus is more God in the Quran than in Christianity because he did. He avoided death.

[A]

So the point you're making Here is not that the account of Christ in the Quran is historical but that even if you were to accept it as historical, you would have reason to think him divine.

[B]

Yes, it's not historical, but it's very much. I think it's. I don't know how you can get around the concept that Jesus is not at least some way part of Allah.

[A]

And isn't there also a misunderstanding of the Trinity and the Blessed Virgin comes in?

[B]

I don't know what the thought process was or how they interpreted this but the word Trinity is not even used in the Quran. It says don't say that God is the third of three. So things that we believe God like the Father is one third God, Jesus is another third and Mary is because yeah, there's a quote that Jesus says that I never said to worship me and my mother as gods. But then it also says that there's a spirit. So maybe there's like a fourth person involved. It doesn't get it right. Like there's some confusion and I think what happened was like whoever wrote the Quran because I actually don't think Muhammad wrote it. They just threw it out altogether. They're like, I don't know what's going on with the Christians but obviously what they're believing is not right. Let's just not think about it. Yeah, and they obviously didn't even ask Christians.

[A]

It is interesting though that Islam arose within an historian culture in which Christ is thought to be sub divine or something.

[B]

Exactly. I would say Islam. I don't even think Islam is like another religion. The heresy of heresies. Yeah, that's what I call it. At least it's the last great heresy left.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's, it's the story ism like on steroids, huh? Yeah. And I think we have to stop viewing Islam as another religion. We have to start viewing it as a heresy. That has to be like there needs to be like some type of council. I don't know if it's like a church council. There has to be a gathering of Christians saying this is a heresy and it needs to be stopped. In the same way Nestorianism is and Arianism was in Gnosticism. Like this is destroying like the image of Christianity. We can't keep viewing it as another religion.

[A]

Yeah, and what's the difference? Because I could see Christians have obviously gotten together and denounced Muhammad as a false prophet and Islam is a false religion. That doesn't mean there aren't true elements. There are true elements in all religions presumably. But so what's the Advantage in dismissing or rejecting Islam as a heresy instead of merely another religion.

[B]

I think it brings it closer to home.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think it makes it. Make people realize how, like, this has to be done now. And when we think of other religions, we think of, like, other cultures that, like, Buddhism evolved on its own and it's very unique and God can reach them because they never really knew Jesus.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But when we think of heresies, we think of.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

Individuals who purposely twisted the Christian faith.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

And it really does just sort of simplify the playing field. It's like, all right, we have these Eastern sort of philosophies. We have Judaism which finds its fulfillment in Christianity. That's it. And then we have a Christian heresy called Islam or Muhammadism. We have other Christian heresies as well, historianism, etc.

[B]

But that's the biggest one, really.

[A]

Christianity's sick. Like, that's your. That's the religion. You get to choose that or you get to choose Judaism. But I mean, why would you. Because the fulfillment. Yeah.

[B]

Most of them don't even want you to convert. So there you go.

[A]

They don't. Which makes me want them all the more. That's a joke. They're like the girl who doesn't even want you. But. Yeah, then you've got just this heresy of Islam. Yeah.

[B]

So that's why I don't view it as another religion. Because they. They also think we worship the same God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like Buddhists don't think that we worship the same God. Most of them don't even think there's a God. Hindus are not saying Vishnu and Christ are the same person. Both of them.

[A]

In general, I'd say I'd be happy saying we worship the same God as the Muslims. Can I share why? I don't know how disgusted you are with me at this point.

[B]

I'm not disgusted, but.

[A]

Yeah. Well, first of all, it would seem that the catechism indicates as much, but he would be my reasoning and I'm open to changing my mind on this. It would actually be more convenient for me if I did. Well, what is God? Well, what if I say, well, God created the universe? He's not the universe. He's something independent of the universe which created the universe. If the Muslim believes this. Yes. Yeah. Right. So I believe in that God too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I just think that the Muslim believes perversions about God and falsities about God that the Christian doesn't. Yeah. So what's wrong with that?

[B]

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[A]

Yeah, I, I sometimes, I mean, again, I really am open and I don't want to lead anyone astray here because. But it just seems to me that I think sometimes the Christian wishes to distance himself from the Muslim, and rightly so. And they think, well, the way to do that is to say, well, the Muslims are worshiping something else.

[B]

And okay, let me think about this.

[A]

Let me say one more thing and then I'll have you refute me. Okay, if you wish. Here's the analogy I use. Suppose an atheist picks up a book on natural philosophy or natural theology and they don't believe in the existence of God and then they find this book and it has, you know, let's say William Lane Craig's Five Proofs for the Existence of God, the Kalam argument and so on. And they get through it and they've got a few more chapters to go on the historicity of Christ and the resurrection and the truth. So they're about to get there, but they haven't yet. But after they've read those first four arguments that just make the case for basic theism, they shut their book and go. I believe, I think if we're willing to say that that person believes in God even though they have not yet accepted Christ or the Trinity, we would say, well, they have a perverted view of God perhaps, or an insufficient view of God, but we'd be probably willing to go, that's awesome that you believe in God. I believe in God too. We're talking about the same thing, the creator and sustainer of the universe. We just haven't fleshed that out to a full blown Christian theism. So what? Yeah, what's wrong with my view, do you think?

[B]

What are the limits, the limit of what, of what God is? A Mormon will say that they believe in God, but I don't think they believe in the same God that we do.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[B]

Because that God's created can.

[A]

Yeah, let me try to think that through. Yeah, well that would be a, that would, I mean, right now, thinking this through and being willing to change my mind, it would seem to me that I have more in common with the Muslim than the Mormon because the Mormon believes that God was once a man and was in fact created and is one, one among many gods that we are obligated to worship this one God, they would say, and yet he was once a man like we are, who possessed a godhood. I mean, just if I isolate that claim and I look at the claim of the Muslim who says that God is eternal and all powerful and create the world and is separate from the world. Just those two isolated claims. I'm. I'm like, more in. I have more in common with the Muslim than the Mormon.

[B]

I think we have more in common with the Muslim. I do. But we have to understand why Islam was created. Islam was created to basically denounce Christianity. The whole Quran talks about why Christians are wrong about Jesus.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it throws some shade to the Jews as well. For. Because. Why not.

[A]

Because you believe that Jews worship the same God as Christians. It's just they have an insufficient view of God. Don't you?

[B]

That's a very interesting question. And I'll say the jury's out. Yeah.

[A]

I appreciate the epistemic humility.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, but that would be my. That would be my position until I'm proven otherwise.

[B]

I'm more. I'm more acceptable to it now than I was before.

[A]

Like, I would go as far as to say that Islam, I'm very open to it being demonically inspired and even a sort of demonic mind virus on the earth. I'm okay with that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I think I can say that and also say that the sincere Muslim right has mistaken and perverted views about God and our blessed Lord Jesus Christ. But I can accept that he believes in God if he tells me that.

[B]

You'Re talking about Islam or the Muslim. Because I do think Muslims in general believe in the same God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think Islam is the same God.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think the origins of Islam are from quote unquote, a different God.

[A]

I see.

[B]

I think I, I 100.

[A]

And by different, you mean like a demonic spirit?

[B]

Fallen angel. Demonic spirit.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I would. I'd be open to that.

[B]

I think. I think it's a mixture of humans and demonic spirits. Whereas for, like, Mormonism, I think it's just humans.

[A]

That's why it's always been fascinating to me that the woke leftists are like weird bedfellows with the Muslims. Hasn't that always struck you as odd? Like, these LGBT people or people who think they're animals are like, all about the poor, innocent Muslim while denouncing the Christian.

[B]

We used to use it, like, we want to say Muslims. Not anymore. Like, we'd use it as like a weapon. Almost like we kind of knew what to do. Like, we'd just be like, we're brown. We're the minority. Hey, the Christians, they colonized us. Don't you remember the French when they took over Lebanon? What about the Crusades? Like we just say these, like, little, like, words and it works. And Muslim imams, they know what they're doing and they know how to get. The whole goal is to take over no matter what, remember? So if we can use the left to take over the entire Western hemisphere, so be it. It's actually ingenious.

[A]

There's this real hatred of Western civilization that you see in, I think, both.

[B]

Islam and the left, which is ironic because at least in the Middle east, everyone's like, we hate America. While they watch their videos from their iPhone and then talk about how, like, they love watching, like, Kanye west sing. I don't know, like, just random, like, everything about the west they want, but not the actual Western. And it's very interesting how that works how you want. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have the goodness of Western society without the Western society.

[A]

So, yeah, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for making this trip. Yeah, no problem for sharing your story. It's really powerful. We have some questions from our local supporters, of which you're one.

[B]

I am one.

[A]

So you could ask yourself a question.

[B]

Technically, why am I so good looking?

[A]

Yeah, like that. It's a great question. If only. The questions I'm about to ask you are so softball. Let's have a look here. Katie did it says, what do you feel Muslims get right about family and roles of men and women?

[B]

Honestly, the male versus female brain. I think Islam knows how men think. It knows that a man, like, you know, the saying goes, a man thinks about sex every six seconds, and it knows that very well. And it also knows what a woman wants. A woman wants someone to protect her. Like, and that's why there's this huge gender role. It doesn't mean that's a good thing, but it just means the way the religion is created. It obviously had a lot of thought process about how men and women interact. And from, like, both from, like, social and cardinal and political everything.

[A]

In. In your experience of interacting with Muslim families and being a part of one. Did you see things that you thought, oh, that's. That's really cool, and Christians should learn from this or no.

[B]

Yes. Modesty. Yeah. Like, but see, that's.

[A]

But no matter. But it sounds like what you're saying is whatever that we can learn from the Muslims is already in our religion. We're just not obeying it.

[B]

No, we're not obeying.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But okay, everything from Islam. Well, it's not from Islam, but. Because it exists in Christianity. Yeah, but it's lacking, at least in the last hundred years of Christianity. Yeah. So modesty at church.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I would never see a Muslim walk into a mass with a tank top.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Or like shorts. I. I see that at mass, like, traveling all the time. And obviously that's like more of a North American thing. Like, you do that in Italy, people can kick you out. Yeah. But the way that that space is treated, even though there's nothing sacramental occurring, like. Yeah, it's treated like. No, you can't just walk in here, like, looking like that. You can't really walk around like that anyways. Like, there were rules from how men should dress and how women should dress, and they were just the way you live life with modesty. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's great. Thanks. JTaylor90 says, when discussing faith with a Muslim, what are the best couple talking points to get them thinking without it coming across like an attack?

[B]

I would say the first thing you do is actually something you shouldn't do is that never bring up personal experiences or emotions. So I talked about how you should evangelize different people in different ways. So when you're evangelizing, again, to the Mormons, always use emotions and, like, feelings. Islam doesn't like that. No one cares if you're in adoration and you felt good. We want to know, how is it logical that a man can be God? How is it logical that there could be a trinity? Like, Islam doesn't care if you feel happy singing your songs. It wants. Like, Muslims want to have logic in their religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I guess you have to use philosophy almost. They will really respect you if you start using philosophical arguments for God. Good. But they will lose interest quickly if you say, I feel good at mass.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I do, too. I feel like that I lose interest when people tell me that same. I mean, I guess I would say I lose interest if people tell me that. As if that alone is what should convince me. I can see why it convinces them. You know, you had this experience. But experiences by their nature are subjective. But if I'm to come on board, I need a reason.

[B]

That's probably my biggest issue with a lot of.

[A]

Because Mormons often act like that. They talk about this burning in the bosom.

[B]

They, you know, and I. I can't stand it because I'm like, that's awesome. Now, why do you believe Joseph Smith's a prophet?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because. Yeah, again, I think it's legitimate for someone who's had that experience. And it's connected to a particular faith tradition to justify that. I do think one can be justified in that way epistemically through religious experience. I'm not denying that, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. So rigorous kind of philosophical.

[B]

Philosophical discussions first.

[A]

Okay. Titus T. Says, is the acceptance of polygamy within Islam a barrier for conversion to Christianity? How should the church resolve converts who have multiple wives, quote, unquote?

[B]

Converts have multiple wives.

[A]

That'd be interesting. Like, imagine if you were married to, like, quote, unquote, to three women, and then you became a Christian. I guess the. You have to give up the second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Last two.

[B]

Imagine.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

I don't know how that would work.

[A]

You're being voted off the island.

[B]

Yeah, the island. I guess the marriage would just be annulled. All of them?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You just. Again, you have to pick one. I. I've never thought about that in my life.

[A]

It's interesting.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

Monica says, is violence intrinsic to Islam or an extremist sex abusing the tenants of the religion?

[B]

Violence is 100% intrinsic to Islam. Like, one of the last phrases that Muhammad said is, I'll say it in Arabic first. That I have been commanded to fight the world till everyone says there is no God but Allah. So the last thing he said to his followers was to fight. It is 100% intrinsic to the religion in the same way love is 100 part of Christianity.

[A]

Okay. Ben says, what are some things that Catholics misunderstand about Islam?

[B]

I think people in general, but Catholics as well, misunderstand what the Quran is like. The Quran isn't like beginning, middle, end. This is. It's not like the story of Genesis and Moses and then the prophets. It's like someone's subconscious rant. So it will go on about. It'll talk about how Adam's created, and then it'll talk about why Moses gave us the commandments and then why you shouldn't eat pork. And by the way, you can have four wives. Also remember Moses? Yeah. He. He also said there's this other commandment and Jesus is a cool person, but he's not God. Like, there's no order at all. And the most common phrase is remember when. Like, we were in an audience. Like, remember when it was told to you by Joshua that do not go into the land until this happens. We're part of the audience. So you can see that this Quran is from an oral culture. Like, they're saying these stories to people. And I don't think most people realize that because they usually don't read the Quran or Just don't look into it. But the Quran is very different from the Bible. I was in shock by how organized the Bible is. It almost seemed like it was, like, forged together to, like, convince someone it's true. Like, it didn't seem like it came out naturally. So, yeah, okay.

[A]

Joe Ward asks, in theory, a Muslim could believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just not in the divinity of Christ. Is there any sort of sacramentality in Islam? So maybe you want to take issue with his assumption, but his broader question is, is there any sort of sacramentality?

[B]

The whole Islam's, like, concept of tawhid, like, the oneness of God would separate any being or substance being with God. So, like, Christ could not be part of, like, the Eucharist anyway. God cannot be part of, like, anything. He's outside of that. And when it comes to, like, sacramental, I don't think there's anything sacramental. Like, I was at a Muslim wedding recently, and it was my first Muslim wedding, actually. And I was in shock maybe because it's been like, I don't know, eight, nine, ten years now since I left Islam, but I was in shock by how legal it was. Like, the imam sat there, there was two people, There was a three witnesses, And I was like, you want to marry her? You want to marry him? Okay, sign here, sign here. You all three, sign here. Awesome. You're married. And God's eyes next. Like, it was like, what? I was like, what is going on? Like, there's no concept of a sign sacrament. It's all legal. It's all like a legal, like, same. When you convert to Islam, when to convert to Islam, all you need is to raise your right hand and say, there's no God but Allah and Muhammad's his prophet and two witnesses, and you're Muslim, so sacramental is not really a thing.

[A]

Okay, yeah. Lisa asks, how did you wrap your mind around the Trinity?

[B]

This is going to sound shocking. I've never had a problem with the Trinity. I have. Not once. Like, even as a Muslim, I knew exactly what Christians meant when they were talking about the Trinity. They were saying, like, the way I thought of it was like, okay, God's in heaven, he came down as his son, Jesus, and he lives in Christians as the Holy Spirit. So he's three distinct people, but it's the same God. Awesome. I never had an issue with that. And then when the whole concept of God is love, where the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and that love is so powerful and precious, that it's the Holy Spirit. I never had a problem and I'm almost in shock that people do and like me. Maybe I'm.

[A]

It's a mystery that we can't understand fully. Sure, but. And it's something we wouldn't have arrived at through natural reason. It was revealed to us, but it was never a stumbling block for you as a Muslim.

[B]

Is that a dogma, that we could never reach it?

[A]

Well, I don't know if it's a dogma, but yeah, it's taught by the first Vatican Council. Thomas Aquinas affirms it that we wouldn't know about the Trinity unless it was revealed to us. That's why, I mean, there have been philosophers who've tried to argue that we can know. I want to say it's St. Richard of someone, but I may. It doesn't matter who made the argument that love requires three people, three things. And one is the love, one is a lover. And I'm not saying that's a bad analogy. I think it's a good analogy. It's just that, no, we can't know that unless it was revealed to us.

[B]

Yeah, that's very. That could be true. Yeah. But there's never was an issue and I understood it.

[A]

If people are interested. I don't know what you think about this, but the way I like to talk about the Trinity to my children, if they ask, excuse me, what does it mean to say God is one but God is three persons? I would say, okay, a statue. I have a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary over there. Right. That's a being. In philosophy we talk about existing things as beings.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is a being which is zero persons. You are a being who is one person. God is a being who is three persons. Does that make sense? Not really. Good. Yeah, but that'll do. I find that, Yeah, I just think that's a helpful way. I think as soon as you start getting into like three leaf clovers or.

[B]

I don't like that.

[A]

Yeah. Ice, gas and liquid. You're like, now you're venturing into heresy accidentally. And you might mean.

[B]

Well, yeah, yeah, I see that too often where people are like, they use an analogy, but the analogy always ends up being like a 4th century heresy. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, how have you found. Have you, have you found a particular way helpful in explaining to Muslims the Trinity? Or.

[B]

The best way I can see it is so God is word, his breath.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And like himself, intellect or his intellect. Okay, sure. And when God. So in the Quran it says God said Be. And it is. So God uses his word to create, but the word obviously has to exist before the being for it to be used. And while he's using that, in the same way that when we talk, our breath comes out, God's spirit floats on the world, creating it. So all of them are acting as one. There's three things occurring. The being or the thing that forces the intellect. The word being spoke, and the breath. The spirit going with the word to create. Okay, and that. That seems to always make a lot of sense to Muslims.

[A]

Okay, good. Thank you. Final question here from Ryan Pinkowski. What can Catholics learn from Muslim devotionals and prayer life?

[B]

We got to step it up, like, big time. Like, we have the liturgy of the hours, like, the five times that priests and religious orders pray. Yeah. But the lay Muslim does that on a daily basis. We complain when the Mass is more than an hour. I remember as a Muslim, I wanted the Friday prayer to go for, like, four. I was like, let's do it. Let's keep going. And because it's almost like a military, like, you're like, yeah, it's a very manly religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want to, like, go out and, like, even if you're a peaceful Muslim, go out and fight something. Like, do something where Christianity has kind of become like, we're gonna tell you what we've done for you, and then you guys go home, and then I don't see you next Sunday. And then if you feel called, maybe stay in Our Father before you go to bed. Like, we have. We have our tools. We have our rosary. We have the liturgy of the hours. We have daily Mass adoration. They're always there. If you live in, like, most cities, even if you don't, you can spend 30 minutes a day. I think every individual can spend 30 minutes a day in prayer. Unless you're working a job that's super intense, you can do 10 minutes a day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think there's ever an excuse not to be as devout. Yeah.

[A]

We need Christians to be way more hardcore. I remember being at New York, and my wife and I were leaving the. The airport, or we're leaving New York to go back to here or wherever we were living. And we drove past. You know how there's a bunch of buildings on the way to the airport for, like, rental car places and stuff, and there was a Muslim outside doing his prayers and prostrations. I just thought Christians, you could be such a witness to the world. And many are.

[B]

Yeah, many, many are.

[A]

But we need to step it up.

[B]

But it seems like there's more Muslims that are developed than there are Christians that are developed. Yeah, by a significant number. Yeah.

[A]

We shouldn't let the Muslims put us to shame in fasting. And they pray us.

[B]

Because from the Muslim perspective, like, why would I join this faith that tells me nothing to do, like Lent, for example, give up sweets.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

I. I almost laughed when someone said they're gonna give up. What was it?

[A]

Complaining.

[B]

Okay. That one. I can't even. I can't even comprehend it when someone's like, I'm gonna give up swearing for Lent. And I was like, maybe just stop swearing.

[A]

Maybe give up sin always.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God stoops to conquer and God bless you. But, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And they're like, I'm gonna not eat meat on Ash Wednesday. And I think I've done it. And I was like, yeah, there's still 40 more days afterwards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like, a Muslim sees that, and they see us saying, I'm fasting while I'm eating my Snickers bar. And they're like, this is a joke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Meanwhile, they haven't eaten or drinking in 18 hours.

[A]

Well, God bless. I think, honestly, here's who we should look to to bless us Roman Catholics. Hey. Is the cops. And. And many of the Orthodox, they really do. Many of them put the Roman Catholic Church to shame. They do. In how they. How they take serious. The fasts.

[B]

You know, the Coptics are. They're vegan for nine months out of year.

[A]

I need a Coptic on my show. I need a good Coptic priest on my show.

[B]

I love the Coptics. They are amazing people. And I've never encountered one. Even though they don't think we're, like, fully, like in communion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they've never treated me like I. I'm like a heretic or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like a Papist.

[A]

There's a lot of. I find whenever I'm. And I don't know if it's just because they have not yet seen the sort of influx of Protestant converts than, say, Greek or Russian Orthodoxy have. Maybe that's the case. I'm sure they're about to. But I don't find hostility from them. No, I. I do find hostility for my Orthodox brethren, but it's almost always when there are Protestant converts.

[B]

I've noticed. Yeah, I've noticed that. I'm not sure what it is.

[A]

If I find, like, the regular guy who's been Orthodox his whole life, he loves me as a brother, his Catholic brother, and the Coptics seem like that to me. The people who seem really pissed off with me, they were Protestant five minutes ago.

[B]

It's interesting.

[A]

Usually that's just been my experience. I'm sure there are great Protestant converts and there are some thorny Orthodox lifers, but that's just been my.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. But that's also been, like, my experience, too, with, like, Protestants who convert to Catholicism even, but when they convert to this idea of Catholicism, it's like, what do you mean? You don't pray your rosary in, like, Latin from the 5th century on shards.

[A]

Of glass, on your knees, you lose it. No, there is a. There is a tiresome tendency on the part of converts to think of their newfound faith as a sort of Eden without corruption or snakes, from which they sneer at their separated brethren. And it's. It's. It's. It's understandable. Like, congratulations. You know, I understand what's happening. You found this certainty in this faith clad. But it's a bit obnoxious, and I find it is. Yeah. People who are kind of mature in the faith don't take that sort of patronizing approach. They tend to be hard on themselves and gentle on others.

[B]

And I was guilty of it at, like, the first few months.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

Everyone is, like. Not to bring up something you've done, but you said this story once how when you first had your conversion, you went to this party.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And told them about Jesus, and they said, no, you recited the Nicene.

[A]

That was my girlfriend.

[B]

Oh, was it your girlfriend?

[A]

Yeah. My son. My. My children love this story. We were sitting in my living room, and she laughed at me, and I recited the Creed at her, and then I stood up and left. And what was funny is, she was in my house and. Oh, yeah. You know. And so it's like, yep. All right. So that energy and that enthusiasm. Good. You should have it. But also, there needs to be a prudence. Like, prudence is that virtue which enables us to act in accord with right reason. So that's important. We need that.

[B]

I've definitely done that with my family and, like, my friends from high school after my conversion, where I just went there and I was like, I have, like, the cure for everything. I gotta sit them down and force them to take the cure. Yeah, like, the first month.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Like, what's wrong with Ishmael? Okay, it's freaking me out, dude.

[A]

Back to the Creed to my girlfriend thing. Think about this. This girl has never heard the Creed. She never went to church a day in her life. So I just look at her. And I go, I believe in God. And at that point she's like, oh, he believes in God. Oh, he's still going. And then it just goes on for like three or five minutes. And for long periods, she was terrified. Yeah, yeah. God have mercy on me.

[B]

No, that's crazy.

[A]

But again, I think that passion is beautiful in a way. It's better to have it and then have it directed than to not have it. And nothing to direct.

[B]

It makes a funny story when that person becomes a Christian.

[A]

Yeah, I hope so. I hope I didn't get in the way. But listen, thank you for coming on my show and sharing your story. Tell people where they can learn more about you.

[B]

Yeah. So Instagram, it's Ish of Arabia.

[A]

So how do you spell that?

[B]

I S, H O F, A R, A B, I, A.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then my YouTube channel has the same handle.

[A]

Please, if I forget to put it in the YouTube channel, please remind me, move heaven and earth to tell me and I will get it in there immediately.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my name is Ishmael Yousef. So It's Ismail. Y ou SSCF. So you'll find me on YouTube or forever. And I just make videos every few months, just trying to talk about Islam and why I don't think it's from God, basically. And right now it's been pretty successful, at least on. People have taken my video to put on Tick Tock and those ones have went viral.

[A]

Really?

[B]

But I do not use Tick Tock. I don't want to even look at it.

[A]

I. I also use it, but I have someone else do the posting.

[B]

That's the best way to do it. I gotta.

[A]

Once I get having somebody else do my hoodie work. Yeah, you go in there and put stuff in there. I don't want to have a look.

[B]

But someone messaged me once. They're like, yeah, I saw you on Tik Tok. I was like, I don't use it. And they're like, oh, here, I'll show you. It's like 65,000 views. I'm like, okay.

[A]

Glory to God.

[B]

Yeah. Glory to God. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right, Thanks a lot.

[B]

No problem. Thank you so much.