Growing Up with Drug-Addicted Parents to Becoming Catholic (Adrian Lawson ‪@SipswithSerra‬) | Ep. 551

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pints With Aquinas, Ep. 551

Episode Title: Growing Up with Drug-Addicted Parents to Becoming Catholic (Adrian Lawson @SipswithSerra)
Host: Matt Fradd
Guest: Adrian Lawson ("Sips with Serra")
Date: November 14, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Matt Fradd sits down with Adrian Lawson to discuss his extraordinary journey from an unstable, chaotic upbringing marked by drug-addicted parents and early exposure to trauma, through militant atheism and a search for meaning, to ultimately embracing the Catholic faith. Adrian vividly recounts his tumultuous childhood, intellectual struggles with Christianity, his time as an atheist, and the steps that led him from evangelical and Lutheran traditions into the Catholic Church. Along the way, the conversation highlights the importance of forgiveness, meaningful relationships, and the search for truth, as well as practical and emotional challenges of conversion and family dynamics.

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Major Themes & Discussion Points

1. Adrian’s Childhood: Chaos to Resilience

[02:33–13:41]

• Drug-addicted parents: Adrian describes his mother’s and father’s struggles with meth addiction, instability, and homelessness at the time of his birth.
• Foster care and grandparents: Removed from both parents as a baby, Adrian was placed with loving Protestant foster parents, whom he refers to as his grandparents.

  "If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't know the Lord at all." (Adrian, 06:52)

• Reunions and repeated instability: After spending time in foster care, Adrian’s mother sought custody. Periods in and out of prison for his mother led to recurring instability.
• Early exposure to adult dangers: Adrian experienced substance use and traumatic situations from a very young age.

2. Adolescent Rebellion and Intellectual Doubt

[13:41–22:03]

• Church injuries and deconversion: Changes in church environment (move to Calvary Chapel) spurred skepticism. By his teens, Adrian became staunchly atheist during the "New Atheism" wave.
• Rebellion takes root:

  "I totally renounced Christianity and said, 'I'm an atheist.'" (Adrian, 13:41)

• Family engagement: Intellectual questions about the faith led to heated arguments with his Christian family, who continued to pray for him despite confrontations.

3. Militant Atheism and Search for Meaning

[22:03–35:53]

• Immersion in New Atheism: Adrian became an active consumer of atheist media, attending Richard Dawkins events and adopting a contemptuous view of religion.

  "I was daily listening to, like, atheist podcasts. ... I thought religion should be illegal." (Adrian, 26:41)

• Moral conclusions: Adrian grappled with issues of meaning and morality, admitting he was “searching for identity” in ever-changing causes.
• Constructing identity and nihilism:

  “I would attach myself to causes ... Every couple of weeks the cause would be different. … I realized, 'even if I accomplish everything...there's no purpose to my life.'” (Adrian, 33:13, 35:53)

4. The Road Back: Reason, Apologetics, and the Search for Truth

[35:53–49:01]

• Respect for Christianity grows: Exposure to intellectual arguments for the faith, such as Inspiring Philosophy and Gavin Ortland’s books, shook his assumptions.

  "The fact that they're even appealing to evidence was a little bit impressive to me." (Adrian, 29:20)

• The Resurrection and political conversions: Evidence for the Resurrection and public defenses of pro-life positions (e.g., Ben Shapiro) influenced him to first become pro-life, then politically conservative, before returning to Christian belief.
• Personal experience: Adrian described the role of reading Proverbs and finding wisdom in the Bible as "a way back" even before assenting to Christian truth claims.

  "I couldn't stop reading the Bible ... There's really deep wisdom here." (Adrian, 35:53)

• Exploration of other religions: Buddhism, Islam, and their lack of cohesive doctrine did not convince him.

5. Embracing Christianity Again and Wrestling with Protestantism

[41:02–54:59]

• Return to Calvary Chapel and Evangelical culture: Adrian shares his renewed church involvement.
• Debate over sacraments: In-depth research and exposure to early church and sacramental arguments, especially on baptism and the Eucharist, convinced him of inconsistencies in Protestant teaching.

  “I didn't know that there was a difference in belief before. Like, why did we change that? That's kind of weird.” (Adrian, 01:13, echoed at 46:49)

• Friction with family: Adrian’s announcement of intention to become Catholic shocks his Protestant grandparents, leading to tension and complex emotional reactions.

6. The Path Through Lutheranism

[54:59–61:02]

• Transition to Lutheranism: Initial familial resistance led Adrian to become Lutheran, drawn by its reverence and historical depth.
• Encounters with limits of Lutheran doctrine: Lack of firm answers on Marian dogmas, confession, and the papacy left him unsatisfied.

  "The lack of a solid answer to something is really frustrating to me." (Adrian, 61:05)

7. Final Steps into Catholicism

[61:02–66:12]

• Apologetics as conversion tool: Books like "Behold Your Mother" by Tim Staples and “Why We’re Catholic” by Trent Horn solidified Marian and other Catholic beliefs.
• Emotional component: Recurring theme of beauty and completeness in Catholic practice (especially the rosary) and the longing for consistency brought him “home.”

  "If these [Marian dogmas] are this well reasoned, then the rest of it's got to be good, too." (Adrian, 62:09)

• RCIA and Confirmation: Adrian completes initiation into the Church, keeping it initially secret from his grandparents to avoid further family strain.

8. Family, Marriage, and the Ripple Effect

[66:12–75:46]

• Relationship with wife: High school sweetheart, initially non-religious, stayed by Adrian’s side through all spiritual shifts.

  “She was with me at a time when there was no good reason to be with me.” (Adrian, 67:29)

• Wife’s own conversion: Catholicism’s explanatory power (especially through “The Exorcist Files” podcast) moved her; baptized and confirmed Easter 2025.

  “What did it really was the podcast, the Exorcist Files.” (Adrian, 74:15)

9. Catholic Influences and Media Ministry

[77:03–80:55]

• Genesis of 'Sips with Serra': Adrian traces his journey from “Lattes with Luther” on TikTok, inspired by 'Pints with Aquinas', to his current Catholic apologetics channel.

  “I like the name Structure ... I liked cigars ... Sips with Serra ... I guess that makes sense.” (Adrian, 78:20)

• Ministry approach: Aims for approachable, authentic dialogue, focusing on clarity and charity rather than polemics.

10. Maturing Faith, Humility, and Healing Family Bonds

[80:55–94:39]

• Navigating criticism: Adrian reflects on the need to speak charitably (especially online) about Protestantism, knowing his grandparents feel wounded by his conversion.

  “They see that as me rejecting them and saying, ‘What you gave me as a child is worthless.’ … That’s not how I feel.” (Adrian, 83:07)

• The power of example: Stories from Matt and Adrian about ordinary people’s quiet holiness (e.g., grandparents’ daily prayer), and the importance of humility in ministry and conversion stories.
• Relationship with parents: Both parents are now stable and in a much better place than during Adrian’s childhood; his father is now a practicing Protestant and his mother is doing well (“not a Christian yet, but praying for her”).

  “Compared to before, I have a great relationship with them and really happy they're in my life.” (Adrian, 94:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Forgiveness and Grace:

  “There's no negative feelings that I have towards her at all.” (Adrian on his mother, 11:10)

• Confrontation with the Depth of Catholic Tradition:

  “I remember that ... every church father that has spoken on the Eucharist says that it is the true body and blood of Christ. And doesn't that bother you? ... That kind of bothers me, though.” (Adrian, 01:49/48:15)

• On Meaninglessness and Nihilism:

  “Even if I accomplish everything ... there's no purpose to my life. Like, if I live the rest of my life, 50 more years, or if I die right now, there's no difference morally to that. And that just didn't feel right.” (Adrian, 33:13)

• On the Impact of Protestant Grandparents:

  "They have always been a constant source of stability in my life." (Adrian, 17:06)

• On Differences in Christian Traditions:

  "I wanted to believe what the historical church believed." (Adrian, 54:59)

• On His Wife's Conversion:

  "She would pray the rosary with me. And she liked it, even if she was like, I don't really know what I'm doing here. ... What did it really was the podcast, the Exorcist Files." (Adrian, 74:15)

• On Regret and Family Dynamics:

  “Had a great experience in the Lutheran Church ... but sadly, it doesn't have the true Eucharist." (Adrian, 63:01)

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Important Timestamps

• [04:00]: Discussion of Adrian’s near-aborted birth, parents' homelessness
• [06:52]: Being taken in by Protestant (foster) grandparents
• [13:41]: Renouncing Christianity during adolescence
• [22:26]: Attending Dawkins/Harris events; militant atheism
• [29:20]: Respect for Christian apologetics; historicity of Resurrection
• [35:53]: Reading Proverbs as a pathway back to faith
• [41:02]: Return to Calvary Chapel
• [46:49]: Shock at historical differences between Protestant and Catholic sacramental theology
• [50:16]: Telling grandparents about Catholic conversion and subsequent familial rift
• [54:59]: Entering Lutheran Church as an intermediary step
• [61:02]: Final approach to Catholicism, reading Tim Staples “Behold Your Mother”
• [66:12]: Relationship journey with wife, her patience, own conversion story
• [74:15]: Wife drawn to Catholicism by “The Exorcist Files” podcast
• [77:03]: Origin story for “Sips with Serra”; transition from TikTok to YouTube
• [83:07]: Emotional conversation with grandparents about value of their upbringing
• [94:00]: Update: Parents now in good place, father baptized Protestant, relationship restored

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Closing Reflection

This episode is a deeply personal account illuminating the complexity of conversion—both intellectual and emotional. Adrian’s resiliency in the face of adversity, ability to find beauty and rationality in faith, and commitment to familial love and charity, make his story compelling. Through thoughtful insights about the limits of secular meaning, the historical and logical foundations of Catholicism, and the struggles and grace involved in conversion, Adrian’s journey offers hope for anyone searching for purpose, faith, and reconciliation.

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For more from Adrian, follow him at Sips with Serra on YouTube and TikTok.

Transcript

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[A]

During this whole process, I was excited. I was like, this is great. I need to tell my grandparents about this. I need to tell my family about this. Because I thought that becoming a Catholic show us how ignored I am meant to becoming a more serious Christian, a more traditional Christian, and everyone's going to be happy about that. I had no idea.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I didn't know what the Reformation was at all. So, you know, the early church belief on baptism actually being efficacious for salvation actually does something. It's not symbolic. And then similar with the Eucharist. And I was like, wait, it hasn't always been like Calvary Chapel, I thought, I didn't know that there was a difference in belief before. Like, why did we change that? That's kind of weird. So that just totally shocked me and I couldn't believe that I was believing something that used to not be believed by any Christians. Yeah, I remember that. And I think at one point you brought up like every church father that has spoken on the Eucharist says that it is the true body and blood of Christ. And doesn't that bother you? And he said, no, I don't really care. And I was like, that kind of bothers me though.

[B]

Hey everybody, before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about my brand new book. It's called Jesus Our Refuge. If you, like many people, unlike all of us to one degree or another, have been seeking refuge in things other than Jesus Christ and have just found yourself increasingly weary, then this book is for you. This book is about taking Jesus seriously. When he says, come to me, you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. It's getting great reviews and I know it will be a healing balm to your soul. Check it out. Jesus Our Refuge. You can get it right now on Amazon. Thanks. So, Adrian, you had a wild childhood.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Tell me what happened.

[A]

All right. So I was born to two parents, both of whom struggled with drug addiction. My father was producing drugs, and my mother enjoyed the product, so to speak. I want to say, before we get into it too far, that both of my parents now are in a great place. They're wonderful people. We have a great relationship, and there's no anger. You know, there's no hard feelings between us or anything like that. So we have. Everything's good now. So I want to say that before we get into all this.

[B]

And are they okay that you divulge some of this? I don't want you to.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

You must have some idea.

[A]

Yeah, no, yeah, it's fine. Yeah.

[B]

What kind of drugs was your dad making?

[A]

Meth.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So very different to, like, moonshine or marijuana.

[A]

Yeah. Growing weed or something. It's a little bit more serious.

[B]

That's bananas. Do you know how they met?

[A]

I don't know the exact story, but all right. Yeah, I'm not sure, but they were. They were never, like, married or anything. It was just kind of a for fun type of thing back in the day. And I was conceived. And it's kind of funny because you hear about a lot of the stories that people use to talk about, for example, justifying abortion, and they're like, well, what if the mother's not ready for a child and she can't properly take care of him? And what if she's homeless or something? And it's like all of those situations apply to me, which is kind of hilarious. Or not maybe hilarious.

[B]

Your parents were homeless?

[A]

My mom, I'm not sure if she was homeless. My dad, by the time I was born, was homeless. And even before that, my mom, because she had had a lot of difficult pregnancies before miscarriages and whatnot. The doctors told her, you're not going to be able to have a child. And then she conceived my sister, who's 10 years older than me, and they were like, okay, this doesn't make sense that you were able to conceive, but this child's probably not going to make it. My sister's fine. She's 10 years older than me. She has a wonderful family. And then when she conceived me, they were like, okay, this is really kind of crazy. There's no way you should have been able to conceive a child. But this baby's definitely not going to make it, so you should probably just abort it and she was like, well, if he's not going to make it, then why not just like give it a chance, you know?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God bless you. I'm so sorry that that wicked doctor said that.

[A]

Yeah, I'd like to meet him. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know much about meth, but I get the feeling that you can't just do it casually. Like, I don't know. Was your mom, would she say she was addicted to meth?

[A]

Yeah. There's no way to do it casually. Yeah. And the times that I've seen people use meth, like, there's no way that that's just a one time thing or just on the weekends type of thing. No, it becomes your whole life.

[B]

So was your. Your mom was in a terrible place when she became pregnant? Yeah.

[A]

Awful place. And then when I was born, shortly after I was born, actually, she was arrested for possession of drugs. And my father was homeless, sleeping in his car. And these are stories that I've heard, but from what I've heard, I was sleeping in the car with him as a newborn baby and he tried to give me over to his parents because they at least had somewhere to stay and were a little bit more stable, but they were. They were very poor themselves. They came from Argentina and they didn't really have a lot going on financially, so they were unable to take care of me as well.

[B]

So when your mom gave birth to you, was your dad and mom still together?

[A]

I don't think so, but I don't think they were ever really. I see. Like. Like even born, right? Yeah.

[B]

But then your dad ended up with you sleeping in the car. Did your mom go to prison or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So she was in prison. So my grandparents on my dad's side tried to take care of me for a while. Wasn't working out. They put me in the foster care system.

[B]

How old were you?

[A]

I must have been like three months old or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then I was placed with a wonderful family who people who have seen my channel before would know are my Protestant grandparents. Oh, yeah. And I call them my grandparents, but they're my foster parents from when I was a baby. But they're wonderful. Yeah. And if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't know the Lord at all. So.

[B]

So how old were you when you went to live with them?

[A]

I was born in December. I was with them in, I believe, February.

[B]

Okay. And did they adopt you?

[A]

They wanted to, but my mom got out of prison, I think the following year. I'm not sure exactly the exact timelines. But my mom got out of prison. She wanted me back, and they said, you know, let us adopt him, you know, well, of course you can stay in his life and all that. But she was like, no, I want him back, because I don't know how it works, but I think, you know, if somebody has custody of you, there's no obligation that they have to keep the mother in your life or whatever. So. So she was like, no, I'll take him back, but you guys are welcome to stay in his life, like, take him every weekend, whatever you want to do. Because I think she felt that there was, like, some real love there. So, yeah, so that's what happened. And they've been in my life ever since. 30 years later.

[B]

But did you live with your mom since that time?

[A]

Yep. Yep. So I lived with her from that time.

[B]

How long? So she wasn't in prison too long then?

[A]

Yeah, it must have been a year or two. And then she ended up going back to prison again in my. When I was, like, a toddler or something. And I don't remember where I stayed during that time. I think I might have stayed with my grandparents again.

[B]

Can I ask what happened the second time she went?

[A]

I think it was the same thing. Broke possession. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So when's your earliest memories? Not like, just fleeting memories, but do you. I can think back to when I'm five, and I have a pretty good recollection of going to school and what it was like and what my teacher was like.

[A]

One of my earliest memories, like, a solid memory, is I must have been, like, five or six, and I think I was at my aunt's house. She's since passed, but she was another source of stability for my older sister especially. She was basically her guardian. So I think I was visiting over there one weekend or maybe staying there for extended period of time. I don't remember. And at that age, just, like, my sister was picking on me or something, you know, she'd have, like, friends over. They would just, like, make fun of me or something, like, lightheartedly. Nothing serious, but, yeah. Or we'd play Spyro on PlayStation 1, which was. Those are good memories. So those are some of my earliest memories. Okay. So.

[B]

All right, so your mom went back to prison while you were a toddler. You're not sure what happened to you. She was there, what, just for several months at that point, or a few months.

[A]

I think that might have been a year.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. Cause I do remember she comes and I see her, like, walk in the door. And I'm like, hey, I remember you. I know you. And I don't know, like, I was really happy to see her, but at the time, I didn't really remember how I knew her, but I just knew that it was really good to see her. Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[B]

And then at that point, did you have a stable home life after she got back?

[A]

I think things got a little bit better. She. I'm trying to remember. I know at nine years old, she ended up getting married to another gentleman who was a great guy. And we lived with him for several years, I think, until I was maybe 12, maybe 13. And then they ended up getting a divorce. And then that's when I go back to my dad and I start living with him.

[B]

Did your mom keep using drugs throughout your childhood?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have memories of what that was like?

[A]

Yeah, I remember we lived in a trailer park. I think I was 11 years old. And I came out of my rooms, I think it was like in the middle of the night or something, to go to the bathroom or get water. I don't remember. And she was in the kitchen with, like, a bunch of dudes, with, like a bag of something. I don't know what it was. And I was just like, what is going on?

[B]

Oh, man, I'm so sorry. You've got a beautiful. I mean, I can tell that you don't. I can tell you love your mom and you've forgiven her and you don't seem terribly cut up about this, but just you telling me that breaks my heart. Right. I got little kids and I just. I just love them so much. And their kids are so innocent. There's no defenses yet. Right. To protect them against the manipulation of adults or the evils of the world. And so just as a little kid getting up in the middle of the night, man, it breaks my heart.

[A]

Yeah. No, And I've. Since I. I feel like my biggest concern now is that my mom doesn't feel that I forgive her. Oh, really? Yeah. So I. I try to reiterate as much as possible. I've even written her long winded letters of, like, I love you, like, I'm not mad at you. There's. There's no. There's no, like, negative feelings that I have towards her at all.

[B]

So what was it like, though, going to. You said after the divorce you went and lived with your dad. What was that transition like?

[A]

That was rough. Yeah. So I was, I believe, 12 or 13. I was in middle school at the time. Um, she was after the divorce. She was with some not great guy who was abusive and all that. And I. I knew I didn't want to be there, but I also didn't want to leave, you know? But my dad came one day and he said, I'm taking my son and we're getting out of here. Like, this is not cool for him to be here. So I went with my dad for middle school. I think I was with him for a year or so. And then I said, I can't do this because he going from a parent who is like, just come home when the street lights come on.

[B]

That's your mom.

[A]

My mom?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know, you're failing everything at school, but, you know, you got suspended again at school, you skipped school again. Don't do that. But, you know, whatever. Going from that to my dad being like, why did you get a B in this class? I was like, I don't want to do this. This is horrible. So I think after about a year or two of living with my dad, I was like, I think it was even less than a year, actually, because I think I was in seventh grade. And then I went back to my mom, finished seventh grade, and then I went back to my dad after that. So I can't remember the exact timeline, but it was something like that. And then. And then I stayed with my dad from, like, eighth grade until I graduated high school. And then even after high school a little bit, yeah.

[B]

Did you have a decent relationship with him during that time?

[A]

Yeah, things got better, for sure.

[B]

And did you. Were you still in contact with your mom throughout those years?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And she would visit at times and I'd go hang out with her. And then actually after high school, I ended up moving back in with her because she was still with that abusive boyfriend. And I was like, I gotta do something. And also, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. So I was like, I guess throughout all this time. By the way, I'm not a Christian, really. Growing up, I was going to church, and then at about the age of 15, or 13 to 15, I can't remember exactly, I totally renounced Christianity and said, I'm an atheist.

[B]

So was your dad taking you to church then?

[A]

Okay, yeah, he was taking me to Calvary Chapel. The thing that kind of spurred on my deconversion, I guess, was that we were going to a very small, like, charismatic kind of church, Pentecostal type of church. And I was really, really involved in the video crew there and, like, doing video editing for them and doing the soundboard for them and all that. And that was really fun. And then my dad was like, yeah, this church is kind of far. It's very small. And, you know, it was a wonderful church. And he still likes it to this day, but he's like, I just. We should go somewhere closer, maybe a little bit nicer. I don't know. So we went to Calvary Chapel, and I was just so mad about the move that everything the pastor was saying, I was like, I'm gonna pick apart everything he says. And eventually ended up picking apart Christianity and deciding to leave it.

[B]

What year was this, roughly? Was it during the craze of the new atheism?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.

[B]

That stuff was just in the air. It seemed so sophisticated at the point.

[A]

Well, this would have been. This would have been 2009, 2010. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So that's. Yeah, that's kind of like. I think it peaked around, you know, eight or nine, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But I was. I remained a vehement atheist even after that, all the way up until, I believe, 2018.

[B]

Did you have good reasons for that? Did you have any reasons to be an atheist other than Christians were stupid or was that about it?

[A]

No, that's pretty much it. I had learned that, like, other people have different religions, and I wasn't really. I hadn't never really thought about that deeply, but once I was confronted with that, I was like, why do we believe this religion over those other religions? Yeah, I know friends who are Buddhists or who are atheists. I've heard of Muslims. There are a couple of those that I am aware of. I didn't know any personally, but why not be one of those? And why be Christian? Is there an evidential reason or is it just because I was born with this and my dad was born with this and his dad was born with this, and I wasn't really given a good answer. And at that point, I don't. At least I didn't have access to Internet resources that would. Who did you ask for those? My dad. Yeah, my grandpa. And I think because their faith is so strong because of personal experiences they've had, and I just didn't have a personal experience like that. At least that I was aware of, that those weren't really going to cut it for me.

[B]

So did they find your questioning just sort of your angsty, rebellious, teenage, perhaps, I guess, your years. Is that. Do they just see it like that? Do they find it irritating or do they try to engage with you or.

[A]

I think it was irritating because of the way I went about it. So I was like, arguing with my dad and just being. Just poking at him, just being really confrontational about it. And so he would be confrontational back. And then I was like, these Christians don't even know why they believe this stuff.

[B]

It's really easy to make things look stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I remember seeing a meme that poked fun of atheists. It said atheism, the belief that there was nothing, that nothing exploded. And then there were dinosaurs. And, you know, like, it's easy to make things look stupid. It's a lot harder to build a case and to be kind of careful as you go about doing it. You said your grandpa. Was that your dad's dad?

[A]

No. Yeah, so my grandpa is my foster parent.

[B]

Okay, so tell me about this relationship, like growing up through your teenage years and the influence they were on you. I presume you all lived in the same area.

[A]

Yeah, not too far. I'm gonna probably cry talking about them because I love them so much, but they have always been a constant source of stability in my life. So when stuff was crazy at home, when I lived with my mom, or even when I'm fighting with my dad or whatever, going to their house was just kind of like a breath of. All right, let me just regroup. It was just such a peaceful place. Yeah. And then they always brought me to church, which even when I thought it was kind of silly, I was like, all right, whatever, I'll humor them, you know, because they're good to me and. Yeah, they've just always been so good. And I'm really grateful that. That they've been in my life even to this day.

[B]

Do they talk to you about your mom and dad and help you process all that?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They. I mean, they mostly just love them and they're like, hey, like, how's your mom? Is she going to church? Is how's your dad doing? Like, my dad got baptized recently at a. I think at a Calvary chapel or some non denominational church and they're really excited about that. So. Yeah, they. They're not in contact really much with my dad and my mom, but they have a great love for them.

[B]

Yeah. Did you ever go back and live with them or. No, it was just those initial stages as a kid.

[A]

Yeah, I never. I don't think I ever lived with them for an extended period after. After my childhood.

[B]

He was always in touch with them. It's amazing how much, like, people who love us as children, the. The impact they have on us. I've shared before that my best friend's mum, unfortunately. This is going to sound horrific, you may have already heard me say this, but she's the one who used to buy us pornography and alcohol, I guess. Awful. Like, no question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But she also was one of the only parents who ever genuinely listened to me. It felt like genuinely listened to me. And I know that sounds counterintuitive and. No, she was really kind to me and, like, I'd bring issues up with her and she was a single mom and so, yeah, she had some. Some real poverty in her worldview, obviously. Yeah, but. But she was just so kind to me, you know.

[A]

How old were you at that time?

[B]

Well, I met my best friend when I was about 12. And so we went on to be friends, you know, all throughout high school. And so she was just always someone I could go to when I had a problem. And I always, you know, when you were a kid, I don't know if you had this experience, you go to friends houses and the friends were. The friend's parents were always polite, but just because that's how adults should treat children.

[A]

Oh, hi. Hi.

[B]

And then just get out of my space. Or like, maybe not that aggressive, but she was always just. Yeah, just interested in me. And so, like Peter says, love covers a multitude of sins. Like her love for me. I'll always look fondly upon those memories with her because of how interested she was in me as a kid when I didn't think I was terribly interesting or when I was always in trouble at school or with my parents or what have you. So that's. That's really beautiful. Thank God for this beautiful couple that took an interest in you.

[A]

Yeah, they're wonderful.

[B]

So how did they react when you were questioning Christianity? Did you share that with them?

[A]

I did, yeah. I think they never fully realized that I was an atheist because I never told them. But I would argue with them about Christianity, and I think maybe there was a little bit of denial on their part. They didn't want to accept that, but they knew something was wrong. So they were praying for me for nearly a decade, the time that I was an atheist. And I still kept in touch with them, we still had a pretty good relationship, but anytime faith came up, I would. I would immediately start arguing with them. Yeah. If they ever said, like, you know.

[B]

Everything happens for a reason.

[A]

Yes. Stuff like that, I'd be like, well, what about this crazy example? Is that for a reason? And it would just turn into an argument and. Yeah, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And then it Sounds like you wanted to be an atheist because you just thought there wasn't good reasons for Christianity or how was. How was your. How were you behaving back then? How was your view of morality? And, you know, were you kind of engaging in sort of nefarious activities or were you. No, you were, like, basically a decent person.

[A]

Somewhere in between. Like, I wasn't doing anything crazy. I had as a kid, a very young kid. I was, like, smoking marijuana at, like, 11 years old. Drinking hard liquor at 11 years old. Watching pornography at 11 years old, again, like you said, at a friend's house whose mom wasn't really protective of that stuff, like, didn't really keep that under locks, and she actually gave us alcohol, too. So.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I'm so sorry.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, so there was that. But then actually going into high school, middle school and high school when I was with my dad, I knew that, like, that wasn't the best thing for me. So I wanted to get good grades. I wanted to be, you know, well behaved and stuff like that. I wasn't smoking weed when I lived with him, although he didn't always believe that. He actually gave me a drug test one day because he thought, yeah, but I was still, you know, kind of slipping on grades and skipping classes sometimes and little things here and there like that, but nothing super crazy.

[B]

All right, so then you said you're an atheist for a decade. So it sounds like you were either committed to it as a positive proposition or was it a sort of default as religion stopped being convincing? Does that make sense? Like, were you reading Atheists?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have a signed book of the God Delusion. Oh, yeah, I went to a Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris event. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And had it autographed.

[B]

Oh, did you get to meet Richard?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah, it was like, right after he had had a stroke, I think, and. But he seemed to be in good spirits and good health at the time. So that was exciting for me at the time, but yeah.

[B]

Do you remember what the energy was like at that conference?

[A]

Yeah, it was very lively and just like, very triumphal. Triumphalistic. I forget the exact word, but yeah, very much like, we've defeated religion and now it's just a matter of stamping out these old people that are clinging onto the past, basically.

[B]

I've been talking a lot lately about my friends at the College of St. Joseph the Worker, you know, Jacob Imam, Mike Sullivan, Andrew Jones and company, the guys who started the college that combines the Catholic intellectual tradition with skilled trades training. Well, Listen to this. They're growing their program and are looking to connect with experienced Catholic tradesmen to hire as instructors. So if you are an experienced carpenter, plumber, H vac technician or electrician and want to help mentor and teach future Catholic tradesmen, go right now to collegeofsaintjoseph.comcareers to connect with the college and see how you can become part of something truly special. And if you're watching or listening and know a tradesman who needs to hear this message, please invite them to reach out to the College again. That's collegeofstjoseph.com careers collegeofsaintjoseph.com careers thanks. It's funny how a common enemy brings people together in a superficial way, isn't it? Yeah, I think it's interesting how, like, the conservatives in America were much more united when Biden was asleep at the helm. Now you have Trump at the helm and it's like, okay, the common enemy in some sense, right? At least politically speaking. And even in Hollywood and Big Tech, they seem to be less aggressive. Maybe now the conservatives all at each other's throat. It feels to me like that's kind of what happened to the new atheism, that they were united in pointing at religious people and making fun of them. But then when they maybe were challenged or invited to propose some kind of worldview that would either support or see as ridiculous, like transgenderism or the threat of Islam. I don't know, I don't know what your take is on it, but for me it seems like it started coming apart.

[A]

Yeah, I always felt, even as an atheist, a little bit weird about some of the efforts of Sam Harris, for example, to try to construct objective morality without a God. He tried to construct some sort of way that we could know right and wrong objectively without appealing to a lawgiver, as we would say. And even as an atheist, I was like, eh, that kind of seems like an uphill battle and not really necessary. Like we could just do away with the idea of having morality at all, but there's obvious reasons why you don't want to do that too.

[B]

So did you have any, like, what was your favorite argument for atheism at the time? Since you're reading these people and going to their conferences? Did you have any or.

[A]

I think I believed a lot in the God of the gaps argument that, okay, people think that there's a God because everything's here. We don't know how it got here. We don't know how life started exactly, but we just need to investigate more scientifically. And then we'll find an answer.

[B]

The answers will disappear. Yeah. And then God will disappear with them. So was it more like, I don't need a compelling argument for atheism. I just find all the arguments for theism unconvincing.

[A]

Ye. It was like the dillahunty kind of approach, where it's like, I'm starting from a default position of I don't believe your proposition and now you need to convince me, and if you don't convince me, that's your fault, essentially.

[B]

What do you think about that tactic now?

[A]

It's kind of cowardly, I think. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It feels like it should be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think William Lane Craig always did a really good job at putting it back on the atheist, like, defining the three terms atheist, theist, agnostic, and to see if there's any good reason to think any either theism or atheism is true. And then very often they would expose themselves as agnostics.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Cool. So did you have atheist friends?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So it was just like a contemptuous sort of attitude towards Christians?

[A]

Very much so, yeah. I was very militantly atheist. I thought religion should be illegal. Illegal. I thought it was child abuse to raise a child with religion.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

All kinds of stuff like that. I was daily listening to, like, atheist podcasts. Yeah. Just reinforcing that Christianity. Stupid. And. Yeah. So I was very much on that side of things. And then the way that that turned around was a friend who was a Christian who I knew from high school. I was posting stuff on Facebook, and I think I posted like a Joe Rogan clip or something of, Joe Rogan used to have this line about. Well, all we have is translations of translations of translations, and we don't even understand the original language. And so therefore we could never know what the original Bible actually said. I posted something like that on Facebook and a friend of mine from high school was like, that's actually not true. Like, I can show you the manuscripts. And, like, that's not how translations work. We don't just make a translation and then throw out the old copy. Like, we have access to tens of thousands of manuscripts that actually all agree with each other, even though they weren't. There was no central authority dictating, at least early on, you know what to write down. We have multiple continents, and all of them agree on what the Bible says.

[B]

So how did you react when you.

[A]

I was like, oh, what the heck.

[B]

Joe Rogan Immediately or. Because I find that social media is not usually a place to do deep thinking and good arguing. It tends just to be reflexive. You're stupid. No, you're stupid. So you're saying he commented under a post you put.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Or he might have messaged me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I can't remember exactly, but I was.

[B]

Was he a Christian?

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he still is to this day. He's a great guy. But once I was confronted with the evidence, I was like, okay, well, I guess that argument isn't really good. I didn't know that. But Christianity is still not true, obviously, but I guess I can't use that argument. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

All right. So then what happened?

[A]

So then we had an ongoing kind of conversation about things like that. And he had another friend who I think was going to Bible college or something at the time, and he was very smart as well. And they were presenting arguments, a bunch of different. Like, philosophical arguments. I can't remember exactly which ones, but I'm assuming the ones that Thomas Aquinas would propose as well. And none of them were very convincing to me, even though maybe they should have been. I was just not open to it. And it eventually culminated in us talking about evidence for the Resurrection. And I came across inspiring philosophies series, multiple series, actually, as one on the historicity of the New Testament, which is. Is really good. And he has one on the evidence for the resurrection. Really good playlist on his channel.

[B]

He's excellent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Michael Jones.

[A]

Michael Jones. Yeah. So I was like, okay, if I'm gonna debate them, I should go to their sources and see what do they say about this stuff? So I went there and I was like, all right, I'm still not convinced. But I didn't know that they actually thought evidence was important at all. So the fact that they're even appealing to evidence was at least a little bit impressive to me. I was like, oh, okay. They're not just like, well, because it feels good to believe this, so we're gonna believe it. They're like, no, actually, if you look at the historical records, even outside of the Bible, people are talking about this widespread belief that Jesus rose from the dead. And I'm like, oh, okay. Interesting, interesting. So, like, none of that really pushed me over the edge, but it was at least giving me more respect for the belief system as a whole. And then finally, I actually became politically conservative and pro life before I became a Christian. Whoa.

[B]

How did that happen?

[A]

I heard. I think it was, like, Ben Shapiro's fault or something. So if anybody wants to blame Ben Shapiro, good for him. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good thing to be blamed for. It was either him or somebody associated with him who was making a case for pro life. And I always thought that it was only on religious grounds that one would be pro life. And then I, it was like, no, this is life is just a human right and the baby in the womb is a human, so they are afforded that right as well. I was like, that makes a lot of sense. Actually. I never thought about that way. So I became pro life. I actually wrote a really old like blog post that I had at the time about. I think I titled it like a non religious case for pro life or something like that. Non religious pro life case. And it's just appealing to. As a country we recognize that these rights are important and they're afforded to every human. They're human. So there you go. In college at this time. Yeah, I was in college at this time. Yeah.

[B]

Did you feel kind of sophisticated getting to be an atheist while defending the pro life position? Like, look how intellectually open I am. Oh yeah, I think that's true, by the way. I'm not just saying it like it's a. It sounded like I was mocking it, but. But I could also see the kind of like, yeah, the prideful incentive of like, look how diverse my thoughts are. I'm a real free thinker. Which by the way, I think you were if you, yeah. Denied God's existence, were an atheist and yet started. So did you have atheist friends that you would talk to about this or.

[A]

Yeah, not really like vehement atheists like I was, but just people who were maybe non religious, just kind of agnostic or lived as if there were no God but didn't have any strong opinions about it. But we're pro choice. And I'd be like, you know, it's just because you haven't heard my argument that doesn't appeal to a God to.

[B]

I think that if God doesn't exist, abortion is fine.

[A]

You think that it is fine or.

[B]

I would think abortion is fine if God does not exist.

[A]

Everything's fine if God doesn't exist.

[B]

Yeah, but I guess I mean something a little bit more than that, I guess. I mean, I think there are good reasons to obviously prohibit, you know, murder and child abuse outside of the womb and things like this because to do so would, to allow. It would just allow for kind of chaos and mayhem. But you know, there are certain things like euthanasia and abortion that I think would, would make. Would be okay. So why not just take that position? Why not? Why not Say, well, yeah, the state affords the right to life to people. The unborn are, are human, but who cares? Like, let's just not afford the right to life to them. Did you ever think about, I'm sure you thought about that.

[A]

I, I, I'm trying to put myself back in those, in those shoes. But I think what I would have thought back then is that consistency of principles mattered.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Even if I didn't have a divine source of those principles.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[B]

All right, so what was the next domino?

[A]

So, let's see. Actually, there wasn't really a next domino. It all just kind of crumbled into place, if that makes sense. So I was at work one day and I just, I had noticed in myself that I was attaching myself to causes. And I had done this ever since high school. It might have been a product of maybe like, growing up without a consistent father figure or something like that, but I would attach myself to causes and every couple of weeks the cause would be different. So this week I'm a vegan, next week I'm a communist, next week I'm an anarchist. You know, all that stuff. So it's a search for identity. It is, it is, 100%. And then one day I was at work, and I think by that time I had recently watched, like, the Godfather. And I was like, that's what it's about. You just have to make a bunch of money, People have to fear you. And meanwhile, I'm like, working a minimum wage job, trying to pay my way through college, got nothing going for me. I'm like, I'm five foot four. I'm not threatening anybody. So it's like kind of hilarious that I had that mindset, but I was just a jerk to everybody. And I was like, the way that you, you know, you live a good life, I guess, or live a worthy, a life worthy of respect is you be honest with people. Even brutally so. I would use that as an excuse to just be a jerk. And then I realized one day at work, oh, actually, even if I accomplish everything I ever want to accomplish, and even a hundred times exceeding my wildest expectations, there's no God, there's no life after this. So it's all just gonna explode when the sun explodes and no one's gonna remember me. And most likely no one's gonna remember me after a couple generations anyways, so everything's pretty insignificant. And I kind of felt this pit in my stomach of like, like I was falling And I was just like, there's no purpose to my life. Like if I live the rest of my life, 50 more years, or if I die right now, there's no difference morally to that. And that just didn't feel right. But I couldn't escape that. That's a logical conclusion of my worldview. And so I was like, I think I got to re examine this whole God thing. And at that time, I felt like a panic inside of me, like I don't know what, what direction to point my life towards. I don't know what to do. I don't know what is right or wrong. So I immediately thought, I need to read the Proverbs. And I started reading Proverbs and I just loved it. And I couldn't stop reading the Bible. And even though I wasn't intellectually convinced that Christianity was true, I was like, there's some really deep wisdom here.

[B]

Yeah. So was it your grandparents who first introduced you to the Proverbs?

[A]

Yeah, I think so, yeah. My grandpa's always, always instilled a deep love of scripture in me ever since childhood.

[B]

So you were just sort of looking at it like, hey, like there's wisdom to be found everywhere. This is ancient wisdom. Whether it's part of the Bible or not doesn't matter to me, but pretty much, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then I before I had like dabbled in Buddhism and stuff like that. So I was like, I need to figure out which one of these belief systems is most likely true. And I looked at the evidence for the resurrection, which I had already been looking at for a while. I looked at the evidence for maybe miracle claims in Buddhism and other religions and found that the Christian evidence for Christian miracles, especially the resurrection and miracles since then, even up till recent times, very, very strong in Christianity, not very strong in other religions. So if any religious belief system is true, it's most likely this one.

[B]

And then did you give Buddhism a fair shake?

[A]

Yeah. Actually in high school, I was very sympathetic to Buddhism. I even went to a Buddhist temple. And I was like, hey, I want to be a Buddhist. What do I do? And they were like, just be a Buddhist. Like, I don't know.

[B]

Like, come on. But isn't there a class?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, don't you want money?

[A]

Yeah. I was like, is there like a book I should read? And they were like, yeah, there are a couple of books. You know, there's kind of disagreements on which ones are truly from the Buddha, but here's some books. And I was like, okay, so like, what Am I supposed to believe? And they're like, well, you could believe that there are deities in the clouds that you pray to, but you don't have to believe that. You could just believe that there's like the Buddha and you try to imitate his life and you're like, try harder. Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, try to win me.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, you guys don't. I mean, first of all, you guys don't agree on this stuff and like, pretty key things, like are there multiple deities that you can pray to? And yeah, you really don't care if what I believe is true on this. Like, don't you have some kind of a system or some way to figure out what is true? And there just didn't seem to be anything like that. And I was like, all right, well, I guess that's just. I don't know. And I've since actually looked in more into Buddhism. I did a video about it too. And yeah, I saw you.

[B]

You had a convert on, didn't you?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she kind of, she described the same experience of not really knowing. Like there's not really a cohesive belief system where you like a catechism. Right. We have our catechism. What does the church teach about contraception? You can go to the catechism, paragraph, whatever, and look it up. There's nothing like that in Buddhism. There's been some attempts to make something like that, but I don't think it's, you know, that widely accepted or effective maybe.

[B]

But yeah, and I remember finding Buddhism and religions that I assumed were like that. I don't know if they were or not. I was just a 17 year old kid who didn't want to believe in God, but definitely wanted to look at pornography without feeling bad. And you know, like Buddhism and these types of religions can just initially, as you begin to look into it, it can give you this sense of spiritual depth meditation, you know, all that without kind of putting any moral claims upon me. I was a huge fan of that.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah. That's the best. Yeah. Especially as a young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Young gentleman. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Doing stupid things. Not a gentleman at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A young barbari who only wanted to become increasingly vicious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was definitely attractive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Did you look into any other religions?

[A]

I did look into Islam because of.

[B]

Course God could exist. Right. And then maybe Islam or Judaism or.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Did you, did you go that route? That route? Like, does God exist or did you just. Not sure, but I'm going to look at these theistic Religions.

[A]

Yeah. I looked at arguments for the existence of God. Most of those were coming from Christian sources, but I was just like, let me hear from their side. Because all I've been hearing up until this point is like, atheists giving me straw man arguments of what Christians believe. So let me hear what Christians actually believe from Christians. Why do they believe there's a God? And then I heard arguments like the argument from morality, the Kalam cosmological argument, the contingency argument. So there was a really good book, actually, called How Reason Leads to God by. Oh, I'm blanking on his name, but he was on. He was on capturing Christianity a long time ago.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think his name is Josh. Oh, yeah. Something. He has a kind of a. Oh.

[B]

It'Ll come to me.

[A]

Unusual last name.

[B]

Yeah. Don it. Rasmussen.

[A]

Rasmussen, yes. Brilliant book. Yes, brilliant book indeed. So arguments like that were really convincing to me, and I was like, okay, this kind of. This God thing is actually legit now it's a matter of which religion is true. So evidence for the resurrection was immediately where I went. And there was just no other religion that had evidence as strong as the resurrection as much as I searched.

[B]

So are you in dialogue with your grandparents and dad at this time?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are they excited that you're kind of coming back on track?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I told my grandparents, like, hey, actually, I'm going back to Calvary Chapel Church now. And they're really excited about that. They're like, we've been praying for so long because they knew that I was in a bad.

[B]

God bless him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you lose friends when you made this switch?

[A]

I didn't lose friends, thankfully. I don't think if I did, I don't remember them, so it didn't really hurt. But friends were very surprised because first of all, I was very politically on the left beforehand. Hated Trump, hated everything conservative, hated religion.

[B]

Golly, I forget how old I am.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you were like.

[A]

Because Trump, this was 2016, 2017.

[B]

That's amazing. That's when I started Pints in 2016.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

And you were a fetus. That's ridiculous. No, no, no. You're at college.

[A]

I was a college student.

[B]

Yeah, because you said you had become politically conservative and the pro life. So then was it becoming more interested in Christianity that solidified your conservatism, or were you also seeing, like, the transgenderism issue and these other things that you then reacted against?

[A]

Yeah, I think the definitely, like, obviously pro life was before I became Christian and then the other conservative beliefs about like, because even as a pro life person, I was like, yeah, but homosexuality is not. Like, who cares? But once I actually learned what the Bible teaches and some of the natural philosophy behind that, I was like, yeah, I became even more politically conservative, I guess you could say. Yeah. But, yeah. So friends were just really amazed because beforehand I was at one point an anarcho communist, whatever the hell that means. And now I'm like, what does that mean? You know, it's like, we all live on a commune, and it's like, you.

[B]

Who's in charge?

[A]

No one's in charge, man.

[B]

Is that it? So it's like, what happened in Portland, Oregon, several years ago.

[A]

Yeah, I guess.

[B]

So that worked out well.

[A]

Yeah, go for it. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So you were that at one point.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. And then now I'm a Christian. So I still have a friend today who's like, I can't believe. I still can't believe you're a Christian. And you're, like, conservative. Because she knew me from when I was the total opposite of all that. So that was the main reaction. Just kind of shock. I actually had a friend from high school who. The other friend who was kind of arguing with me about Christianity, trying to convince me of Christianity. His name is Peter, by the way. Great guy. He was, like, trying to talk to this other guy, another friend of mine, and his. His name's Justin. I don't think he'll mind if I share. He was like, you know what? Once Adrian agrees that Christianity is true, then come back to me, because that's never going to happen. And then I converted. I told Peter about it. He went to. Justin was like, hey, man. But nothing's come of that.

[B]

But, yeah, all right, so, okay, so did you give your life to Christ? Did you get baptized? What did that look like?

[A]

Well, that's where things got a little bit hairy. So I spent a couple years, I think, of 2018. I think 2018 is when I kind of came back to Christ. Going to Calvary Chapel. About a year in, maybe two years in, I can't remember exactly, I decided to get baptized. And I had a friend at Calvary Chapel who was in training to become a pastor, and I was just like, yeah, I want to get baptized. I feel like it's a good thing to do. And I don't know. And he was like, yeah, you don't need to. Like, it's not efficacious for salvation or.

[B]

Anything like that, but it's such a defensive attitude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, why would you even Say that.

[A]

Okay. I just said, I want to get baptized. But I was like, interesting. Okay, yeah, whatever. You know, I knew nothing about the Reformation or anything like that. And then for whatever reason, during this time among evangelical Christians, there was this move to do like house church stuff because we're like, that's how the early church did it. Yeah. So there was this kind of appeal of like, let's go back to what the early church was doing. Like they were meeting in houses, you know, they were being oppressed by the government or whatever. So that's how they had to do it. And then I was like, yeah, what was the early church doing? So I actually went to, went to my church's bookstore and I found a book by Gavin Ortland. Shout out Gavin Ortland. God bless him. Great guy. And it was titled Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals. And I don't remember exactly what in there triggered this, but I heard something about, you know, the early church belief on baptism actually being efficacious for salvation actually does something. It's not symbolic. And then similar with the Eucharist. And I was like, wait, it hasn't always been like Calvary Chapel, I thought, I didn't know that there was a difference in belief before. Like, why did we change that? That's kind of weird. So that just totally shocked me and I couldn't believe that I was believing something that used to not be believed by any Christians.

[B]

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[A]

Hello.com Matt Frad so I was like, huh, weird. So I started looking into, you know, probably came across a lot of Catholic answers material and things like that, looking into why do Catholics or why does anybody believe that baptism actually does something?

[B]

And that pulled up Catholic articles and videos.

[A]

Yeah. Like why baptism is efficacious or why Baptism, whatever. And then I was like, oh, this is actually kind of a rock solid case for why baptism is not just a symbol. I don't think I could go on believing that it is a symbol because I can't deny that it's not according to scripture. So that, I mean, I got baptized, everything was fine, but there were these questions in my head. And I was bringing this to my buddy who was in training to be a pastor, and he was like, yeah, I think you're right. Like, there does seem to be some differences between what we believe and what the early church believes and even maybe what Scripture says. Your pastor said that he was in training.

[B]

The training. Yeah, that's what I mean.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, so I was like, I think I'm going to become Catholic. Whoa. Yeah. Like, so I haven't learned everything, but on Baptism and then on the Eucharist, I actually came across your conversation with Cameron Bertuzzi on the Eucharist. That was in. I think that was later on. I think that was like, 2021 or so.

[B]

Is this when he was a Protestant? We kind of debated it.

[A]

Yeah, I think that was in 2021 or 2020. No, 2021 or two. I can't remember.

[B]

Yeah, I forget.

[A]

But I was like, huh?

[B]

Yeah, he definitely lost that debate.

[A]

Yeah, I think he would admit that, too.

[B]

It was a friendly exchange, but I think we had time periods and things like that. Yeah, I remember studying for that debate and just being shocked at how strong the evidence was.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For the Eucharist from the Patristics and from Scripture.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And I think at one point you brought up, like, every church father that has spoken on the Eucharist says that it is the true body and blood of Christ. And doesn't that bother you? And he said, no, I don't really care. And I was like, that kind of bothers me, though. I don't know how you could say that. Obviously, it must have bothered him a little bit. But yeah. So after that, I was like, I can't. I have to become Catholic. That's it. So then, were there other things that.

[B]

The Catholic Church taught that you thought were bogus?

[A]

I didn't even know I knew nothing about anything.

[B]

You just thought, if they got baptism and the Eucharist, right?

[A]

I thought, well, they got baptism and the Eucharist, right. And Protestantism in my mind, was just what I was experiencing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I didn't even know about other, like, more traditional forms of Protestantism.

[B]

You're not going online. Cause this is late in the game. Right. YouTube's up and running.

[A]

I must not.

[B]

Gavin's posting.

[A]

I was probably just not good at looking up what I needed to find. I don't know. But.

[B]

Well, every Protestant watching is going to agree, like, yeah, you're not good. If you had have just looked, you could do.

[A]

I'm good Anglican. Yeah. Yeah. Well. So I was like, I have to become Catholic. And then I became a Lutheran.

[B]

Oh, whoa. Okay. All right.

[A]

How does. What. So I. This was 2020 at this point, and I had called up a local Catholic church, and I was. Or emailed them, and I said, I want to become Catholic. They said, great, we can start Ocia, come on. Like, I'll meet with you on this day or whatever. And then the day comes. And I assumed it was like a zoom meeting, because we were all locked down at that point. And she was like, well, you're supposed to come in the office. I was like, oh, people still do that. Okay. So I missed that. But then during this whole process, I was excited. I was like, this is great. I need to tell my grandparents about this. I need to tell my family about this. Because I thought that becoming a Catholic shows how ignorant I am. Meant you're becoming a more serious Christian, a more traditional Christian, and everyone's going to be happy about that. I had no idea.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I didn't know what the Reformation was at all. So I called up my grandparents and I said, hey, I got great news. I'm going to become Catholic. There was silence. And I was like, what's going on? And my grandma was like, catholic. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna become Catholic. Isn't that great? And she was like, I don't know if I want to see you anymore if you become Catholic.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

And I was like, what? Like, why is that the reaction. I don't understand, by the way. She doesn't remember saying that. Okay. She's also 88 years old now. Bless her. Yeah, God bless her. Yeah, she's great. And she would have never held to that. She would have never held to that. Right.

[B]

She was just sort of in shock.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

And did she. Did she say why?

[A]

Yeah, she was like, Catholics, they Don't. They don't have the true gospel. They worship Mary and they worship the Pope. And, like, that's not. That's not the. Like, this is the realm of.

[B]

This is in the era of Pope Francis. Like, I'm pretty sure they don't worship the Pope. I'm online. People seem pretty critical.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I heard a guy online say that there are popes in hell. So I'm pretty sure they don't worship guys that are in hell. I hope not.

[B]

Did that cause you pause?

[A]

Yeah. So initially I was like, well, maybe they're onto something. Like, maybe my grandparents, who I've looked up to for my whole life and I still do in many ways, they know a lot more about scripture than I do. They've been Christians for much longer than I have, so I should take what they're saying seriously. And maybe there's some other way that I can have these traditional beliefs but still be a Protestant and not have them worry about my salvation. So I found a wonderful Lutheran church, absolutely wonderful Lutheran church, and started going there and met with the pastor beforehand, because in that church, they're very strict about, you're not going to receive communion unless we know who you are and we know that you have the correct theological beliefs about the Eucharist. So I met with him for about two and a half hours. We just talked about the Eucharist, my story and all that. And he was like, great. And then I was a Lutheran for a couple of years. I think I might have joined his church a little bit later on in my Lutheran process, so to speak. But just I had a great experience in the Lutheran Church. It was great.

[B]

What was great about it, traditional liturgy.

[A]

Was my first time experiencing it. It was a whole new world to me. Reverence for what they believed to be the Eucharist, that was beautiful to me. You know, taking communion weekly was a new thing for me. And, yeah, just the reverence of it. I was like, this is. This is great. This is really nice.

[B]

And you got along well with the pastor and the people.

[A]

Yeah, the pastor was great. I was meeting with him sometimes just regularly for coffee or whatever, because I had always had kind of remote jobs in software. So I was just like, yeah, go in the morning and have a coffee with him and then go back to work. Really nice, great guy, very smart, very well spoken. Yeah. And then I start feeling like, okay, this is definitely closer to the early church. But there, it seems like also in the early church, there were other things that were important, like confession. And my church doesn't really believe in confession.

[B]

So are you reading the Church Fathers? How are you?

[A]

I'm probably.

[B]

Are you on YouTube listening to Catholic discussions? How are you?

[A]

I'm listening to pints with Aquinas. And I don't remember exactly which conversations or which resources kind of spun me out or whatever, but I just started feeling like this is much closer. And I started also feeling a little bit of even an anger towards Catholicism and also towards how Lutherans talk about Lutheranism. I was like, if we're the Catholic Church, we're the true Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, quote, unquote, is the one that went off the rails. Why don't we call ourselves the Catholic Church? Why don't we call our pastors priests and Father, why don't we practice confession? Because that seems to be what people were doing even in Martin Luther's time, he was going to confession. Why don't we believe the Marian dogmas? Why did we let them take all of these things? And we, who we believe are the true Catholic Church, we dropped all of that because we didn't want to be too Catholic. That's kind of.

[B]

Wouldn't they say. They dropped it because they thought it wasn't biblical or patristic.

[A]

I guess so. But to me, at that time, I had come into Lutheranism because of the history of the church, and I wanted to believe what the historical church believed.

[B]

I see.

[A]

So if the historical church believed that, yeah, you know, gotcha. Mary was immaculately conceived or, you know, whatever other Marian dogmas, if the historical church believed that confession was to be done in church to a priest, then why are we dropping those beliefs? So the historical argument was always very strong for me. And then at this time, actually, funnily enough, I was on TikTok posting videos about Lutheranism because I was so happy that I had discovered something more historical.

[B]

Are they still out there, these videos?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone who's watching, go check out Sips with Sarah. Was that the name of your channel back then? No, I guess not.

[A]

Clearly not.

[B]

Sorry. As I asked that question, I realized.

[A]

It'S the same account. So it's still on Sips with Sarah. Come on. But the name before you need to.

[B]

Go back and do refutation videos.

[A]

I've done it.

[B]

Ah, come on.

[A]

That's excellent. Yep. So I have a video, I think it's titled, like, Refuting the Worst Protestant Apologist in the World or something like that. Yeah, that was a fun video to make.

[B]

How neat to document your journey in that way.

[A]

Yeah. But the funny thing is, that the name of that account was latteswithluther.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, did you take that from Pints with Aquinas?

[A]

Did you get that?

[B]

Oh, that's awesome.

[A]

Yes, 100%. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, I was a huge fan even at that time.

[B]

Oh, funny. I got an idea for someone out there who doesn't have a podcast yet. I don't think anyone. I don't think anyone exists who doesn't have a podcast, but just in case there is someone, Tequila with Escriver would be a great little podcast where you have a shot of tequila and just read something from the way or the furrow, you know?

[A]

Yes, all right. I will watch that for sure. That guy's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So Lattes with Luther.

[B]

Oh, funny.

[A]

I'm mostly just talking about why Lutheranism is superior to evangelicalism or non denominationalism. And then I get some Catholics coming in. They're like, hey, man, you're really close. You're really close. And then I'm like, you guys are annoying.

[B]

Yeah, right?

[A]

And they're like, you'll be Catholic soon, don't worry.

[B]

I'm like, what does a Protestant feel when he's told that Rage? Yeah, it sounds so condescending, doesn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it's very condescending.

[B]

It's like when they. It's like when an orthodox fella shows up in your comment section, become Orthodox. You're like, well, I'm convinced, dude, I'm done.

[A]

I'm going right now. Yeah. So I was just like, these Catholics are so annoying. They think they're better than everybody. And I need to set them straight. I need to make some videos about why the papacy is a bunch of baloney or whatever.

[B]

Okay, so that's what you wanted to go after?

[A]

Yeah. Then I was like, they're annoying. I'm going to make videos about the papacy and why Catholicism is false and why Lutheranism is a good alternative to Catholicism. And then as I'm doing that, I'm being presented with arguments that I'm like, okay, it seems like the papacy was present very early on in the church, but they were wrong. They were just wrong about that, you know? So I'm kind of having a very like, non denominational response to arguments that would otherwise be convincing to me, because historical arguments are what convince me of the sacraments of the Eucharist and baptism. So, yeah, I put out some very poorly done videos about why the papacy is false, which I've since refuted. And the Marian dogmas actually started becoming more and More convincing to me how I had prayed the rosary actually a few times by this point, even as an evangelical during 2020 lockdown. Sorry, we're jumping around timelines here, but during 2020, I started having panic attacks. I think a lot of people struggled with a lot of mental stuff at that point. And I found that I needed something, like, tangible that I could just sit down and focus on something. Yeah. So that I wouldn't have panic attacks.

[B]

How did you hear about the rosary?

[A]

Probably you. Yeah, probably.

[B]

That's awesome. I'm so glad.

[A]

So, yeah, I can't remember exactly, but that. That would make the most sense because I was watching your channel.

[B]

So did you just go buy one?

[A]

Yeah, I bought one online.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Just got like the one decade little thing. And then I would just walk around the neighborhood and just pray it. And I was like, this feels weird. And I. I might be sitting right now, I'm not sure, but this is bringing me a lot of peace at the very least. So there you go.

[B]

Did your pastor know that you were doing that?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

What would he have said if you told him?

[A]

Probably to stop it? I mean, at that point, I was in a. I was at Calvary Chapel, so. Oh, yeah. If. If I had. I mean, I had never really talked to the pastor very much at that point anyways. But if I hadn't told him that, he'd probably say, well, you know, that's kind of. You're worshiping Mary at that point and that's idolatry and you should probably cut it out. That's what I assume he would have said, but who knows? I think that's a fair bet that he would have said that. So as a Lutheran, I kind of started feeling attracted back to the rosary, probably because of you. Again, I don't know. And I was kind of. There was a guy at my church who was actually the vicar. He was in training to become a pastor. And he. I would go to him with a lot of questions about, like, well, what are we supposed to believe on this? And things like that. So I would ask him about Mary, like, hey, what do we think about Mary being a perpetual virgin? And I would always get an answer of like, well, some believe that. Most don't. If you're a Lutheran, I don't really believe that, but you're kind of free to believe what you want. And I was like, okay. And for whatever reason, I just thought it was a more beautiful belief to believe that she was a perpetual virgin. So the beauty of the belief itself drew me towards it even before I had, like, a real concrete reason to believe it. And then I think at this time, now that I'm thinking about it, I think you might have been doing some stuff on if you're a Protestant, how can you stay a Protestant but still engage in some Catholic practices?

[B]

Yeah, I love that topic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I did that yesterday. I did a show where I talked about how you can remain a Protestant. Pray the rosary.

[A]

Yep, exactly. Yeah. So stuff like that. I was like, yeah, but what do we believe about Mary? I don't know. So I would ask him about the Immaculate Conception. He'd say, well, the Immaculate Conception, I think, is a little bit harder to believe as a Lutheran, because then you have to believe that God was able to save somebody apart from the cross. And so therefore the cross was unnecessary or insignificant or something like that. And I was like, okay, I guess.

[B]

Which isn't true for all the Protestants who are watching.

[A]

It's not true.

[B]

Yeah, we don't think that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Just other beliefs like that. And I wasn't really satisfied with the answers I was getting because they were kind of like, you could believe whatever you want, but here's what I think. And I was like, well, haven't you guys, like, haven't we thought about this? Like, should we have a kind of a defined belief on this? And I guess the theme that I've noticed is that lack of a solid answer to something is really frustrating to me. So that's what frustrated me with Buddhism and a lot of other religions and with the Protestant beliefs about Mary. It's kind of just like, well, whatever you want as long as you're not idolatrous or something. So I was like, okay, well, what do Catholics believe about Mary? I don't even. Why do they believe this stuff? So I looked up books that I could read about it, and I read Tim Staples book Behold your mother.

[B]

It's the most underrated book on what the church teaches about Mary out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'd recommend everyone go get it. Yeah, it's good. Behold your mother. You said that? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And he famously. I haven't actually finished the book. I read, I think, four chapters of it and I thought, that'll do. Yeah. I was like, this is so well reasoned, and I'm so convinced of these Marian dogmas that have been covered in this section that the rest of it's probably true. Like, if these are this well reasoned, then the rest of it's got to be good, too. And I'm convinced of everything now. So. Yeah. So I guess I gotta become Catholic.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And then I had started learning about how Martin Luther had changed the canon of Scripture and. Yeah, just more inconsistencies with the early church. You know, I learned about what the early church thought about the papacy and things like that, and I was like, yeah, I can't stay here. You know, as great as that church was. And the liturgy was absolutely beautiful, probably more beautiful than many Catholic masses, but sadly, it doesn't have the true Eucharist, which is. Yeah. Unfortunate.

[B]

Were you in personal contact with any Catholics at the time?

[A]

I had one friend who was a Catholic. I hadn't talked to her much about it at that time. I didn't personally know many Catholics at the time. Yeah, I know a lot of ex Catholics or people who are like, yeah, I'm Catholic, because they were raised Catholic, but never.

[B]

And so how did your adoptive grandma react to this the second time around?

[A]

I didn't tell them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I kept it from them. But I had been posting a little bit on. Well, actually, no TikTok. I took a complete break for a year. I just was like, I don't know what I believe about anything right now. I'm just gonna stop. And then once I was closer to ending rcia, I think I posted something about, like, you know, when. When you're a Lutheran tiktoker, but you become Catholic or something. And it had, like, the Curb youb Enthusiasm theme song and that. And then I looked back, and that was exactly one year from the last post that I made as a Lutheran. And I didn't. I didn't plan that out, but it was just an interesting thing there. Yeah.

[B]

So then how did your Lutheran pastor respond to your decision?

[A]

So kind of cowardly as well. I didn't tell him. I just kind of stopped attending that church. And then he. And I was. I feel awful about this, but I was actually involved in their video crew as well. And I was, like, editing videos for them and posting them and things like that. And I had just stopped all that. I just dropped it. And I feel awful about that. But he emailed me like, hey, I haven't seen you in a while. What's going on? Like, you. Everything okay? And I was like, yeah, sorry, I should have said something sooner, but I'm becoming Catholic. And he was like. He wasn't upset or anything, but he said, hey, if you want to, like, come chat about this. Yeah, I'm presuming he would want to. Like, he would have wanted to convince me otherwise. And I just wasn't interested in having that conversation. One, because he would win for sure. Because I just knew he knows a lot more than I do. But I just was convinced and I wanted to complete the RCIA process and just get confirmed. Receive the true Eucharist. Yeah. So then he was like, well, why don't you write out some thoughts on like a Google Doc or something of why you're become Catholic? So I wrote out a few things. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the global presence of the church, the historical arguments for things like the papacy, the consistency of practice among different. Like there were Lutheran churches that weren't doing communion every week, and most of them were, but it was just like, why is there. Why aren't you doing communion every week? And why isn't somebody kind of enforcing that? I guess so a more consistent practice among Catholics. The beauty of the rosary, things like that. Yeah. I also, my wife is Vietnamese or her parents are from Vietnam. She was born here, but I would like my kids to learn Vietnamese. And there's no Vietnamese Lutheran churches that I'm aware of. I think there's one maybe, but it's like there's a lot of Vietnamese Catholic churches, so there's good. That's good. So just things like that.

[B]

Did you meet her after you became Catholic, your wife?

[A]

No, I met her in high school, actually. So we had been together this whole time. Oh, wow. And what was that?

[B]

Wow. What a roller coaster variety. Atheist, pro life, Lutheran, Protestant, evangelical. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. She was just like, this is a lot of change. Yep, I'm a little bit. And what's funny is I had told her before I became a Christian, if I ever become a Christian, just leave me because I've lost my mind.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then I become a Christian and she's like, what's going on here, man? Are you messing with me?

[B]

Do you want me to leave? You can just ask me to leave.

[A]

You don't have to do all this. I just love Jesus. She's like, you could just break up with me like this. No, but she was just confused. And she wasn't a Christian at the time. She was just like kind of agnostic or maybe a deist. But she was just like, this is a lot of change and I'm not really sure what's going on, but I'm going to stay out of it because you don't seem to have it figured out yourself. So there you go.

[B]

Did you become annoying to her as you adopted these new beliefs that you were no doubt enthusiastic about every Step.

[A]

Of the way, 100%.

[B]

She stuck with you. What a good woman.

[A]

She is amazing. I was hoping that she would come up because I would love to talk about her at lunch.

[B]

Oh, let's do it.

[A]

She's the best.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She's pregnant right now with our first child.

[B]

Well done. That's terrific.

[A]

She was with me at a time when there was no good reason to be with me. We liked each other in high school, and I was just a total degenerate. Like, not good at relationships at the time. Breaking up with girls every two weeks because I got bored or whatever. And then she was like, even after high school, she still liked me. And I was like, I mean, I still like her. I remember have really positive memories of her, and she's great, but I don't know if I'm in a good spot to be in a serious relationship. But I know that if I'm with her, this is going to be a serious relationship. This is not going to be like a couple of weeks thing. So a friend of mine was like, well, just go on a date. Like, you don't have to think about it like that. Just go on a date and see what happens. So we went on a date. It's very awkward. But I still liked her and she still liked me, man.

[B]

Tell me about the awkwardness.

[A]

So our first date, actually, because I was so terrified, my friend actually came with us.

[B]

Dude, the reason I'm reacting like this, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't know my face was betraying me. I remember that. I'm going to just tell you my first awkward. Yeah, many more awkward moments. Right? I. I didn't have many girlfriends growing up that might surprise people because I'm such a stud, but I was, yeah, dating this girl, and we went to see the Truman show, you know, back in 1942. And I remember the whole time just like, I was very, you know, I was kind of young, 15, 16. I wanted to kiss her, you know, but I didn't know how to do that. And I was terrified. And I remember at the end, oh, my gosh, I went to kiss her, and we ended up just hugging because I don't think I had the courage. What a weird thing to do to sit with a woman, watch a movie, and then just hug her randomly as the credits. Dude, I am cringing so hard right now. All right, so let's talk about your cringy moments, though.

[A]

Yes, very similar, actually. So I had a car, so we would go and have A date. And then there was one of our first dates. We were. We went to the movies and then afterwards we just had coffee and like sat there and we had. We had no idea what to talk about. She's very shy. To this day. I'm terrified of her because she's incredibly smart and I'm an idiot. And she probably knows that already. So I'm like, anything I say is gonna sound stupid to her. I don't know what to say. I don't know, you know? So we just sat there and just like made weird faces at each other. For our first one of our first dates. I think it was like our first, second or third date. Okay. Very awkward. And then.

[B]

Very awkward.

[A]

Yeah. And then one of the times that I'm dropping her off, I forgot if it was that same date or a different one, but I'm dropping her off at night. And I had. We hadn't kissed yet. We had been on a few dates and I was like, can I kiss you?

[B]

That's beautiful.

[A]

And she laughed.

[B]

Yeah, she buzzed. That's what you want? You want me to laugh at you?

[A]

Yes. And I was just like, you could just say no and get out. That's like, it's okay. She's like, no, no, I want you to kiss me. But it's just hilarious that you asked.

[B]

You're like, it's not that hilarious. Let's just, let's try that again.

[A]

But I'm like, if I lean in for a kiss, I'm worried that she's going to just like jump back or something.

[B]

Yeah, no, no.

[A]

And that's going to be awkward.

[B]

Yes, it's an awkward thing. You're right to be awkward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it was like that for a long time in our relationship. But I knew very early on that I want to marry this woman, so. And like I said, she was with me at a time when I had no prospects. I wasn't in college yet. I actually started going to college after we started dating because she was like, you should figure out what you want to do with your life, you know, at some point if we're going to be together for a long time. And then, yeah, her sister, my sister in law now urged me like, hey, there's a school nearby. Like, just go sign up, like right now. I was like, oh, yeah, I'll check it out. She's like, no, right now. Go to the school right now. And I was like, all right. So I went to the school and I signed up. And then I was like, I start in the in the spring. Okay. And there you go. And then. That's why. That's why I went to college. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have gone. So.

[B]

So I want to talk more about your wife, but I just had this memory. So I did the same thing with Cameron.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We were at the Bleeding Horse Pub in Dublin. This was the first day. Like, we didn't. I didn't know there was anything there. I don't think she knew. But on our way back, walking through Grafton street, our hands had touched, and we were holding hands. And we. We were part of a missionary team for three months. So we kind of knew each other enough to. Then I guess both know that if we were holding hands.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we went to the Bleeding Horse Pub. And I said, yeah, awkwardly, I like you. I'm like, I want to kiss you. That's what I want to do right now. And she let me. And that was terrific.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But what was funny is we went back to the same pub 20 years later.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So we've been married 19 years. So this was 20, I think it was, like, last year. And the fella who served, and we sat in the exact same spot, and the fellow who served us beer wasn't even a fetus, not a zygote when we first kissed. So I made him stay there and watch me while I made out with Karen. No, that's really awkward. Stay there. Open your eyes. He got really weird about it, but that's funny.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

We're not all smooth like on the movies, right? I think it's kind of nice. I want to kiss you. That's cool. All right. So you went to college because your girlfriend said, I think you should do this? Actually, more. More than that. Just. You're going to do this?

[A]

Yeah. Well, her sister was very pushy. She was like, just have some idea of what you want to do in your life. I had no idea at the time. So that was good. That was good for me. Okay. Yeah. So I went to college, and then. Yeah, we've. We've just been together ever since. She's been with me through all of these.

[B]

When'd you get married?

[A]

Versions and such. It's been about four years now. Yeah. Yeah. So we were. We dated for a long time before we married.

[B]

So you weren't Catholic when you got married?

[A]

No, I was. I was a Lutheran at the time.

[B]

Did you get married there or where did you get.

[A]

No, we just got married at, like, a venue.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

[B]

Is she a Christian?

[A]

She's a Catholic now. Oh, wow. This past Easter, she was baptized, confirmed first Communion. Oh, wow. The works.

[B]

What. What helped her? Other than you? I mean, was she reading?

[A]

Yeah, I was no help. Oh. So I just a hindrance. I've always been annoying. She's always told me, not true.

[B]

You're not annoying at all.

[A]

Well, when it comes to that, I was annoying. She's like, hey, this isn't helping me want to. This isn't going to make me want to convert if you just keep trying to argue with me about evidence for the Resurrection, like, that's not really going to do it for me. So I'm like, all right, I'll back off. And then I would just be like, you want to come with me to Mass? You know, like, let's go to Mass. And she would go with me, actually, pretty often. She was going with me to Mass. I'd be like, do you want to pray the rosary with me? And she would pray the rosary with me. And she liked it, even if she was like, I don't really know what I'm doing here. But what did it really was the podcast, the Exorcist Files.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Excellent podcast. Father Carlos Martins, the. Just because it's not. I think it's marketed as an exorcism podcast, but I think primarily it's a catechism podcast. It's very, very packed with catechesis and the way that everything was presented. Because she had believed in spiritual stuff happening. Like, she's had experiences herself, and she knows family who's had experiences, so she believes that there's something spiritual going on in the world, but she hasn't found a system that has made sense of that. And so Father Carlos Martin's laying out what the Catholic Church teaches about demonic possession, why it happens, and things like that. It just made a lot of sense. And she was like, this belief system seems to have thought about this stuff very seriously and made sense of these things in a way that no other religion really has. So she was raised Buddhist, by the way, so. Oh, yeah. So it was just like, okay.

[B]

That wasn't the person you interviewed, was it? No, no, I didn't watch it. I just saw the thumbnail and thought, I need to watch it.

[A]

Yeah, that was a good conversation. Yeah. So she's like, yeah, this religion seems to have it all kind of figured out. Like, they have. Seems to make sense. I'm gonna go ahead and join OCIA now. So she did.

[B]

It's funny how different things move people differently. Like, for you, it was apologetics and herbs. The Exorcist files. That's good to keep in mind as we dialogue with people. We often think that what we found convincing and compelling is what everybody should find convincing and compelling when that's not necessarily so.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Truthly is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help, you know, live and defend the Catholic faith with clarity and confidence. Whether you're navigating a tough conversation, deepening your understanding, or looking for daily spiritual guidance, Truthly is your companion on the journey. It's like if ChatGPT went through OCIA, got baptized, and made it its mission to proclaim the truth of the Catholic Church. But Truthly is more than just a Q and A tool. It's formation in your pocket. Take audio courses on topics like the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Eucharist, Purgatory, and why the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ. Each course is designed to be accessible, engaging, and deeply rooted in the teachings of the Church. You'll also receive daily audio reflections, short, powerful meditations to help you grow in prayer and stay grounded in your spiritual life. Already downloaded by thousands of people worldwide, Truthly is transforming the way we learn, share, and live our faith. One question, one course, and one prayer at a time. Start your seven day free trial today. Download Truthly on the App Store. That's wonderful. And so when did lattes with Luther become sips with Sarah?

[A]

Yeah, so once I got confirmed, I was reading apologetics material. I was reading why We're Catholic was one of the first things I read by Chuck Horn.

[B]

Yeah, excellent book.

[A]

And it was like my family was asking me all kinds of questions. My grandparents specifically were like, why do you believe this about baptism? And things like that. Or like purgatory. And I didn't really fully understand purgatory at the time either. So going to resources like that was really helpful. And then as I was doing that, I was actually creating PowerPoint presentations so that I could go to my grandparents house and be like, here's what the Bible says about baptism, here's what the early church believed about baptism, and this is why we believe this about baptism today. And I just enjoyed doing that. That was so much fun. So I was making kind of very concise versions of those things using primarily why We're Catholic by Trent Horn and making like 60 second defenses of these things in Catholicism on TikTok. And I realized, you know, I obviously can't keep the name lattes with Luther.

[B]

If I'm defending the papacy un every episode. You showed up with a latte to refute him.

[A]

Yeah, there you go, okay. Yeah. So I thought, you know, I like the name Structure, obviously. Huge fan of Pints of the Ques for years, so I want to stay with that. And I liked cigars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I hadn't, I didn't smoke it often, but when I could I, I, I would enjoy a cigar and so I would, I was like, well maybe Cigars with Sarah Junipro Sera, I guess, cuz I'm in California. So I, I've heard that name before. Seems like a big deal. Cigars with Sarah. Yeah, I'll do that. Yeah. And then I think I had heard that TikTok was like deprioritizing cigar content or something like that. And I was like, okay, I don't wanna be thought of as like a cigar page. Cause I'm not. So what else could I do? Sips with Sarah, like yeah, I guess that makes sense. Cause it's like pints is like a tall pint of beer. A sif is like I'm making short form content on Tick Tock.

[B]

Ah, okay, I see.

[A]

It's like just a thing. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because I was wondering why you were so good at making short form content. I didn't realize that you cut your teeth doing Tick Tock videos, but that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I, I kind of got tired of doing it on Tick Tock because the attention spans of people were such that they couldn't even finish a 60 second video before they wanted to comment on something that I had addressed later on in that same video.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I was like, you know what, I need to go to like a longer form. So I went on YouTube. Maybe this would have been a 2024. I think it was like May of 2024 or so. And I started making videos there and I just wanted to make something that was more like a kind of like a casual, relatable, conversational style of just discussing what Catholicism teaches and maybe responding to some Protestant arguments against Catholicism and things like that. So that's what I started doing. And I never thought it would make sense to put that much effort into choosing a different name or something like that. Because I was like, this isn't gonna go anywhere. It's just for fun really. But here we are.

[B]

And then whoops.

[A]

And then I'm on pints. Well, it's funny, someone asked me the.

[B]

Other day, it was Father Gregory Pine, he's like, so why pints with Aquinas? Why not like pints with Dostoevsky? And I said, well it may as well be at this Point.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, like you, maybe not like you, I don't know. But I know for me and for many people, probably you start with a name that seems like a good idea and then, you know, you might be like cosmic skeptic who chooses to rebrand, but people still call him that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How many people think that your name is Sarah?

[A]

That does happen. Yeah. People are like, Mr. Mr. Sarah. And I'm like, not my name, but I understand. Yeah, yeah. Or most most commonly, I'll get sips with Sierra. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I get a lot.

[B]

If you could rebrand it right now, like get into a time machine and go back, would you rename it and what would it be?

[A]

I don't think I would. Yeah, I wouldn't either because, well, funnily enough, when I started, when I changed it to that name, I knew nothing about St. Hina Procera. I just knew I've seen his name on the street somewhere. But since learning about him, especially recently, I've been learning a lot about him and he's just amazing.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm very inspired by him. I don't think I could change it at this point.

[B]

Do you have a good Catholic community where you are in California?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Really good Catholic community.

[B]

And what's it been like developing your channel? I mean, what have you learned through it?

[A]

Oh, man, it's been fun. I think I forget a lot of times that the video I'm making is probably going to be seen by my grandparents or by my in laws or by, you know, whoever who might be like, hey, I don't like how you said that. That was kind of mean. And then I'm. Yeah.

[B]

About the faith in general and Protestantism or about them specifically?

[A]

Oh, in general, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like my. That's.

[B]

That's nice though. It helps kind of curb the way you speak about things.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

Which then ends up making you more palatable to the inquiring Protestant, I would think.

[A]

I guess that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because I came out of the gate very hot against Protestantism. Yeah. I've never been able to just have like a moderate position on something. It's always like, no, this is. Yeah. And I think, I think that comes from when I was growing up. I saw a lot of times in the people around me that they would kind of be wishy washy about their beliefs because if they were kind of vague about what they believed, they wouldn't have to like be accountable to themselves or to a set of principles or something. And So I don't like that. I think that's maybe why that has bothered me about other religions in the past. So I've always been like, this is how it is. You know, so that can be annoying to people. And the worst of it is that my grandparents take it very personally when I argue against Protestantism, because they raised me with Protestantism. And so when I criticize Protestantism, they see that as me rejecting them and saying, what you gave me as a child is worthless. I don't want it, and that's not how I feel.

[B]

Have you tried telling them?

[A]

Yeah, actually, it broke my heart. My grandpa, the other. A few weeks ago now, asked me. We were in the car. We had had some kind of big arguments about Protestantism. And he was like, so do you think that there's nothing good from what we raised you with? Like, do you think that was all just worthless? And I was like, no. And I wanted to cry. I was like, no, of course not. You guys raised me with a belief in Jesus Christ. You guys raised me with the Trinity, with the scriptures, like all of this stuff that's foundational to even Catholicism, you guys have raised me with. So of course not. It breaks my heart that they would think that. And that's not how I feel at all. I'm really grateful to them. So, yeah, so that type of stuff hurts. And then I hear stuff from other friends or family who are like, you know, you're kind of being harsh on other religions, like Islam, for example. And so there's the conflicts, little conflicts like that that arise sometimes. But what can you do?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is hard because, I mean, if I were. If I were an inquiring Protestant, and I started watching this show and I got the sense that the host or the guest was just contemptuous, you know, and just. I wouldn't want to stick around.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But then I've also met people who appreciate that kind of hard line that people take. So you just. You can't please everybody. But I think we want to be. We don't want to be uncharitable, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

God knows that there are many Protestants who are holier than I am, and. Oh, that's my fault.

[A]

Yeah. My grandparents. I don't mean definitely like, oh, there's definitely process. More holy than you. Than myself. My grandparents are some of the most good, devout people that I know. My grandpa, he prays every day in his closet. He goes in there and just shuts the world out and just spends an hour with the Lord, which is beautiful. I Don't do that. I should do that.

[B]

That woman I told you about earlier who bought us porn and alcohol, do you know how that story ends? No, I don't know how much you've heard. So she came to my wedding in Texas, which is wild, right? Because she's from Australia. Obama. And shortly after that, she converted. She was at a Catholic church and there were prayer stations nearby. And the priest said, hey, after Holy Mass, if you want to have someone pray with you, you could do that. And so she went up and just didn't mean to. I don't think she even meant to go to the prayer station. She just happened to be walking out that way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so said, yeah, pray for me. I'm dealing with some stress at work or whatever, just to kind of get out of it. And she encountered Christ and her life changed.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Wasn't even looking for it or anything.

[A]

What do you mean when you say she encountered Christ?

[B]

I don't know what I mean by that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think, I mean, I think I'm at least practically. What I mean is it wasn't a simple, like. Yeah, I feel some peace. Thank you. No, her whole life turned around. Like it was a 360. No, no, a 180.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Change. Right. And I think that's interesting because I think a lot of people have these conversion experiences. As you did. As I did when we were younger. But she was like in her 50s.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Her whole life turned around. And this is one of my favorite stories about her. She started attending this Bible study and she has that new convert zeal. And so she was. She would be in her house and she would have statues of Buddha and different things which she started breaking.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And throwing holy water up the walls, you know, like down the hallway.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so she'd go back to her Bible study and she would say that this is what she was doing. And someone said to her, well, don't you think that's a bit narrow minded? And she said, I hope so because it's a narrow path. That's the kind of woman she was, bless her.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Now I think unfortunately she left the Catholic faith for a Protestant denomination in town. Obviously I think that's sad, but I also can understand it in that the church where I am is whatever. But the church she went to is just passionate Protestant, beautiful Christians. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So kind of like your grandfather, adoptive grandfather. This woman was praying an hour every morning in the scriptures and just.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. What was really beautiful is I went back recently and was talking with her on her. What ended up being her deathbed man. And she told me how much she loves listening to Bishop Robert Baron.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that just made me love Bishop Robert Baron because he, from his place here in America, was speaking into this heart of this woman who I loved.

[A]

That's beautiful. Yeah. My grandparents love Bishop Robert Baron, too. Do they? Yeah.

[B]

See, that's what I'm talking about, Eh?

[A]

Like.

[B]

It'S like the Internet rewards. We all know this. Like, it rewards arrogance, and it rewards bravado. Very much so. Right. But it doesn't. It doesn't reward humility.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But your grandparents and this. This woman who was a friend of mine, their lives have been blessed because of the good work of Bishop Robert Barron.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it sips with Sarah. Junipero. Junipero.

[A]

Junipero.

[B]

Junipero.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That makes more sense.

[A]

Sarah.

[B]

I don't know much about him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tell me something.

[A]

He founded nine of the missions in California. He's considered the founding father of California and considered, like, probably the greatest Catholic missionary in America. He's been maligned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot as of late, especially with, like, the BLM rights and all that. People thought of him as a symbol for colonial. Colonial. Colonialism. But the real story is actually, like, almost entirely the opposite. Actually, it is 100% the opposite. So he came here from Spain. He lived on an island in Spain, beautiful island. I think it was Mallorca maybe. Yeah. I could be pronouncing that wrong. But he was a professor of philosophy there, so very smart guy. He was, you know, in the religious life. And from a very young age, he always was, like a faithful Catholic. Knew what he wanted to do when he grew up. And around the age of, like, 37, I think, he had the opportunity to come to the New World and spread the gospel. And he jumped on that opportunity, and he came here from, like I said, a cushy job. Professor in a beautiful island where his family is. His parents are there, and all that leaves all of that to come here to a land that wasn't very amenable. There were native tribes that weren't always friendly to newcomers. There wasn't very many amenities here. So he shows up, and this is a very summarized version, obviously, but there are a lot of great books and videos out there about him. And he refuses every possible comfort that could be offered him. He has the opportunity to be driven by carriage to somewhere very far away. Instead, he chooses to walk across a desert to get to some particular place in Mexico to meet with other Missionaries. And everywhere he went, he walked. He walked, I think total, like thousands and thousands of miles. I think one trip he made was about 2,000 miles on foot. And just a beautiful, beautiful guy, very smart guy, very well read, very well learned, but also just very willing to get his hands dirty and go out into the world and actually encounter hardship for the sake of converting others, which is beautiful. Yeah. And the bad rep that he's got is so undeserved because he's actually the reason that the natives had a bill of rights that protected them from the Spaniards who actually wanted to come in and kind of use them as labor and things like that. He created a bill of rights for them and was like, no, actually these are human beings created in the image of God and they are afforded a certain level of dignity for that, just as we all are. So they're going to be treated equally like all of us. And even to the point that he was conflicting with Spanish military generals, like arguing with them. I think he was in an argument with some general that wanted to. I think I forget the exact story, but I think he wanted to carry out the death penalty on a native who had killed a priest who was a friend of St. Juniper Rocerat. And Saint Juniper Ocera said, no, we're going to show them mercy the way that our Lord showed us mercy. And he just loved these people and they loved him and he's a beautiful guy. So I have this little prayer card of his, actually. I don't know if you'll be able to see it, but yeah, probably not. Beautiful guy.

[B]

You said that there was a pilgrimage taking place.

[A]

Yeah. So this year I wasn't able to go, unfortunately, but I do plan to go next year. It's. It's a saint. It covers his walk from one mission to another. I believe it's 35 miles total. And it's like an overnight thing. You camp overnight and then you go and continue until you complete it. I think it's a two day thing, but people can find out more about [e-mail] I think I've got that right. If not, Mr. Laponto will bust in the door right now and then you.

[B]

Remind us and we'll put the link below.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a beautiful thing. So they started that actually around the time that everybody was maligning him because they were like, no, we need to have a way to let people rediscover the true heart of Saint Junipero Sera. So, yeah, beautiful guy.

[B]

What's the future for your channel?

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Even the near future.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you have in the works?

[A]

I've been talking a lot about Islam lately. I do plan on getting back into some more dialogue with Protestantism. Yeah. I don't know. I plan to do more interviews. I just rebuilt my studio at home to make it a little bit more aesthetically pleasing that I could have in person. Interviews. I've done some stuff like with Ishmael Yousef and some Protestant friends who have been on and some others who I'm probably forgetting. But yeah, more interviews. I just want to. I've had, like, my life before Christ and my life after Christ are so different. And I just have a lot of people in my personal life who I see struggling with anxieties with different things. And I'm like, I've struggled with some very similar things. And this has been such a beautiful thing for me, just, you know, having a relationship with Christ, doing things like praying the rosary, going to mass, going to confession. So if any way that I can help that message get to, you know, atheists or Buddhists or Muslims, it's just like, I just want to do that.

[B]

Final question. What's your relationship with your parents like, and how have they. I don't know. Have they changed? Are they still in the same spot they were when you were young?

[A]

They've changed a lot for the better. So my dad, obviously, you know, the way he met my mom was making drugs. He doesn't do that anymore, thank God. He is now a devout Protestant. He actually just got baptized recently, which is really exciting. My mom is living a much better life. She's not a Christian yet, praying for her, but she's great. And yeah, I try to keep in touch with them both. I definitely don't do a good enough job of that because I'm just in my own world of what's going on in my life. But compared to before, I have a great relationship with them and really happy they're in my life.

[B]

Beautiful. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show, and God bless your channel and your beautiful wife and your unborn child. That's awesome.

[A]

Thank you.