Pints With Aquinas Episode 526

Modern Art, Pornography, and Redemption (with Andrew Klavan)

Host: Matt Fradd
Guest: Andrew Klavan (novelist, screenwriter, cultural critic)
Date: May 28, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Matt Fradd sits down with Andrew Klavan—acclaimed novelist and commentator—to discuss the decline of modern art, the reality and ramifications of pornography, the purpose of horror in literature, and the possibility of redemption through faith and beauty. Their wide-ranging conversation threads together philosophy, Catholic theology, personal testimony, and deep dives into how culture, literature, and Christian faith interact with and illuminate the darkest realities of the human condition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Loss of Faith and Its Impact on Art (00:46, 36:28)

• Klavan’s central thesis: The “major event of the last 500 years is the loss of faith. It’s the disenchantment of the world, the loss of faith in God. And so all our art speaks about it.” ([00:46])
• As Western culture grew increasingly materialistic, the female body in art transitions from reverential maternity (Virgin Mary) to nudity, abstraction, and eventually dissolution in modernism (e.g., Jackson Pollock), mirroring the loss of spiritual meaning.
  • “The female body specifically falls apart by the end of it.” ([00:46])

The Purpose and Boundaries of Art (10:16, 15:45)

• Definition of Art: Art transmits inner spiritual and emotional experience from one person to another; it is not reducible to mere emotion or chemical states ([10:16]).
• C.S. Lewis on friendship and art: Art as connection—"What, you too? I thought I was the only one." ([11:45])
• Art and Truth: "Art can never lie. Art has to be true." ([15:45])

Christianity, Darkness, and the Value of Horror (07:36, 13:14, 18:01)

• Christian art and literature have always engaged deeply with darkness: the Bible itself contains horrific stories.
• Klavan: "Why is it I write about dark things, that my perspective has gotten even darker than it was before I was a Christian, and yet I've also gotten more joyful and at peace?" ([07:36])
• On horror: Not all horror is evil; stories like "Hansel and Gretel" or "Dracula" show horror can illuminate the nature of good and evil. The problem arises when horror exists purely "to cause...eroticized excitement by the suffering of others" ([02:47], [13:14]), which is "not art and it's repellent."
  • "It's the sensation of sexual pleasure at the suffering of others...that's how you know it's crossed the line." ([14:56])

The Redemptive Power of Art over Evil (18:01, 20:11)

• Even tales full of horror (e.g., Macbeth) can result in beauty and wisdom, echoing how God draws beauty from evil.
• On the Pietà: “If a man can do that out of that moment, what can God not do out of this?” ([19:18])

The Decline & Confusion of Modern Art (36:42, 39:18, 40:29)

• Klavan gives a “museum tour” from the Sistine Chapel (spiritual beauty) to abstraction, culminating in emptiness. Loss of faith leads to loss of meaning; the human form disappears, perception is questioned, and the self is viewed as a mere animal or machine.
  • “As the idea of God disappears, you get...abstraction where we cease to trust our own perception. Our perception becomes a lie, an illusion...” ([36:42])
  • Jackson Pollock and blank canvases represent this cultural malaise: “We should be horrified. Instead of giving the guy a million dollars, we should be going to a collective psychiatrist.” ([40:29])

The Nature and Effects of Pornography (41:37, 42:10, 44:21)

• Pornography as anti-art: Rather than revealing, it suppresses the person’s subjectivity, reducing them to an object.
  • “For all of its exposure, pornography doesn’t expose. It actually suppresses the subject and leaves us with the shell.” (Fradd, [41:37])
  • Klavan: “If you don’t individualize the person you’re making love to...then you’ve actually lost yourself.” ([43:28])
• Distinguishing depiction from intention: Not all nude art is pornographic; it becomes so in its production, context, use, and consumption.
  • Fradd: Viewing something doesn’t necessarily mean “consuming” it as pornography ([45:19])

Morality, Representation, and Intrinsic Evil (44:21, 49:16)

• Some actions (intentional murder, the production/consumption of pornography) are intrinsically evil and cannot be redeemed by circumstance.
• Klavan is cautious with “evil” as a word but agrees that pornography is always “corrupt and corrupting...that’s what I think evil is.” ([49:16])
• They agree, consumption of pornography is always wrong, but representations of sin, evil, and even sex can at times be depicted truthfully in art or narrative (not gratuitously) ([53:13])

Joy, Faithfulness, and the Real Human Experience (64:08)

• Klavan offers testimonial on the incomparable joy and identity that come with a faithful, loving marriage over a life of promiscuity or indulgence.
  • “The change for me was the day I thought, you know, I’m going to stop resisting adultery and I’m going to start becoming faithful...transformative...” ([65:06])
• The journey of virtue is not repression but becoming something better—"not just being faithful, but becoming a faithful person." ([65:10])

Art, Culture, and Comedy in Modern and Past Times (73:25)

• Discussion on why some art and comedy lasts (humanness, universality), while some is ephemeral (reactions to the times).
• Example: Chaplin’s comedy is rooted in human experience and still elicits laughter today ([76:35])
• Seinfeld’s humor: “This stupid thing about me? That’s you.” ([87:31])

The State of Storytelling, TV, and Film (77:51, 82:02)

• Klavan: The golden age of film was 1939—today’s films often feel “infantilizing,” lacking the adult complexity of earlier eras. ([78:43])
• Recent examples: “Fargo” praised for its depiction of marital fidelity; “Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri” cited as cinema done right ([82:02])

Faith, the Culture Wars, and Jewish-Christian Relations (91:41, 97:02)

• Klavan distinguishes between disagreeing with someone and hating them. He notes the prevalence of genuine antisemitism on the right but also agrees that accusation of “antisemitism” can be used to shut down legitimate critique.
• The importance of being 'for' something, not merely 'against' something, in shaping culture ([95:48])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The major event of the last 500 years is the loss of faith. It's the disenchantment of the world, the loss of faith in God. And so all our art speaks about it." – Klavan ([00:46])
• "Art can never lie. Art has to be true." – Klavan ([15:45])
• "Why is it that I write about dark things... and yet I've also gotten more joyful and at peace?" – Klavan ([07:36])
• "If a man can do that out of that moment, what can God not do out of this?" – Klavan on the Pietà ([19:18])
• "There are no happy endings. Not in this, the only life we know. No. And I see what you mean by that." – Fradd ([27:09])
• "For all of its exposure, pornography doesn’t expose. It actually suppresses the subject and leaves us with the shell." – Fradd ([41:37])
• "If you don’t individualize the person... to the point where you give them your life, essentially, you’ve actually lost yourself." – Klavan ([43:28])
• "I'm going to stop resisting adultery and become faithful. That was what I figured out... transformative..." – Klavan ([65:06])
• "Christianity is big enough to handle the horror and evil of the world. It always did before." – Klavan ([21:05])

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:46 — The loss of faith and art's reflection of it
• 07:36 — Why Klavan writes about darkness as a Christian
• 10:16 — What is art? Art as transmission of spiritual experience
• 13:14 — Is all horror evil? Where does it cross the line?
• 15:45 — Art and truth; when depiction becomes a lie
• 18:01 — Redemptive nature of "dark" art; Macbeth, Pietà
• 36:28 — Literary and artistic reflections of a godless culture
• 39:18–40:29 — Evolution of art from the sublime to the vacuous
• 41:37 — Artistic nudity vs. pornography; subjectivity and soul
• 49:16 — Pornography: always corruptive, never just art
• 53:13 — Narrative depiction of sin; when is it necessary?
• 64:08 — Faithfulness and the joy of virtue
• 73:25 — Why some comedy and art are timeless
• 78:43 — The golden age of movies vs. today’s culture
• 91:41 — Real meaning in political culture & the Daily Wire crew
• 97:02 — On antisemitism, criticism, and identity

Authentic Exchanges & Tone

• The conversation is warm, candid, and sometimes playful, with self-aware humor about their own limitations or foibles.
• Both men regularly cite classic literature, Catholic teaching, and personal stories, giving the discussion both a scholarly and intimate vibe.
• Throughout, there is an undercurrent of hope—however dark the subject, the possibility of redemption and beauty remains.

Summary

Klavan and Fradd take listeners on a nuanced journey through the landscapes of modern art, the perils of pornography, the legitimacy of horror in the Christian imagination, and what makes art and beauty possible even in a world wracked by nihilism. Their discussion balances intellectual rigor with personal testimony, ultimately affirming that “the peace that passes understanding” is found not by fleeing from darkness, but by transfiguring it through truth, beauty, and the light of Christ.