A (2:36)

Congratulations.

B (2:37)

Thanks.

A (2:37)

Not congratulations because, hey, you're popular, but congratulations, because you get to spread a very beautiful devotion that helps people love Jesus Christ. And how wonderful is that?

B (2:45)

Yeah, yeah. And if anything, I think. Right. Because it's the rosary. It was Bible catechism did not the rosary. If anything, it's a testament to the faith of people, and the faith is alive. And. Yeah, they're like, they're hungry for God and they're hungry for resources which are going to help them deepen their relationship with the Lord.

A (3:03)

How tired did you get of people being like, the rosary in a year?

B (3:07)

Well, yeah. Well, I mean, because of the thing. Oh, it's like, it only takes me 15 minutes, you know, like, I heard that. I heard that quite a bit. I heard that quite a bit. But the reality is my world, my normal world is very, very small. I'm almost always with. I live with four seminarians. Me and four seminarians. And then I work at a seminary. And so I'm seeing the same people all the time. So there's not actually a ton of that happening in my normal life.

A (3:30)

Gotcha.

B (3:30)

Gotcha.

A (3:31)

Did they approach you about it, or did you have the idea.

B (3:34)

Yeah, so it's with Ascension. Ascension Press. But what happened is towards the. It would have been, like, right around the beginning of 2021. So right at the end of. Or maybe 2022. Right at the end of Bible in a year, I did a video for Ascension Presents. Right. Which is their YouTube channel called Rosary in a Year. And what I laid out there was a way in which someone can begin to take on the habit of praying the rosary in a way which I think really grounds them in sort of the most important foundations and fundamentals of the rosary, which isn't just getting through 50 Hail Marys and building up the muscle of praying the rosary at the service of actually falling in love with it so that you persevere in it. And a lot of that was a response to some of my, like, negative experiences as I took on the rosary as a young man. And, like, what wasn't helpful. So anyway, that happened, and it did well. And they were just paying attention to people's interest in the rosary. And so a couple of years later, they did present me with the idea of doing the podcast.

A (4:43)

What a gift.

B (4:44)

Yeah.

A (4:45)

Like, imagine if you could, I mean, go back and tell St. Francis that, hey, I got to do this thing where I told this many million people about the rosary. Yeah, that's bananas.

B (4:56)

Yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah. And I think. Right. Because it's like, again, people like what I feel called to and, like, actually very, very deeply. And I. And I. This is really a big discernment point for the things I say yes to and no to is like, leading people in their next best step with the Lord, particularly in their life of prayer. And prayer is foundational, and it's essential. And it's, like, profoundly under attack and profoundly hard to do in the current year. And so whatever I can to help people and to accompany people there is what I want to give my time to. Yeah.

A (5:35)

Do you find that that's what you're known for now when you encounter people in Catholic settings? Is that what they're talking about?

B (5:41)

Rosaring year? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. 100% in a new way. And so because presents, I think, trends a little bit younger. And then we have another podcast, the Friars, called the Poco Poco Podcast, which again, trends a little bit younger. But certainly Rosary in the Year, like, opened it up to, like, a pretty broad, like, demographic of Catholics, including kind of all ages.

A (6:06)

Yeah. Beautiful. Now, I don't know your story, and we don't need to get into it into the weeds, but were you raised a Catholic?

B (6:12)

Yeah.

A (6:12)

So were you praying the rosary with your family or occasionally or.

B (6:15)

No, not at all. Not at all. I had my conversion. Raised Catholic, Sunday Catholic, not a lot more than that Catholic, but, like, serious about it. Like, serious about, you know, if we're going on vacation, we're going to go to Mass on Sunday kind of thing, but not outside of grace. Not praying in the home together, other than, like, maybe a prayer at night. But when I was. When I went to college, freshman year is when I had my, like, I really believe it needs to affect my whole life moment. And one of the things that was brought to my attention is that good Catholics pray the Rosary and pray the rosary every day.

A (6:49)

Okay.

B (6:51)

And so, like, what I started to try and do was to try and pray. Like, my commitment was. It was pretty, like, superficial, was to pray the rosary every day, but I would do it really as fast as possible while doing a bunch of things. And there was almost zero actually prayer involved with my praying of the rosary. And so it became just a task, just a thing to do. Didn't actually bring me in contact with the Lord in a helpful way. And so it kind of was a slightly, like, negative experience. And so pretty quickly, it became something like I didn't persevere in doing because I was trying to do too much too quickly without the right foundation and formation. And so the rosary in the year was to try and kind of like, the starting point in a certain sense is just getting back to the priorities of, like, what prayer is and what it is and what's the priority of the rosary, what's not the priority of the rosary, and also giving permission for people to be where they're at. And it's like, it's not realistic for me to pray five decades every day. It's like, okay, if that's where you're at, like, okay, let's go ahead and, like, be honest about that as a trident, like, instead of, like, pretending like, that's not where we're at, and let's go ahead and work with you where you're at. So we can. But we can build up to hopefully, the habit of a daily rosary.

A (8:03)

I love that. I was reading Jacques Philippe's excellent book. All of them are excellent. I think it was called Time. No. Interior Freedom.

B (8:10)

Yeah.

A (8:10)

Where he says something to the effect of, God doesn't love the you that you wish you were but aren't, because the you that you wish you were but aren't doesn't exist.

B (8:17)

Yes.

A (8:17)

He doesn't love ideal people. He loves people.

B (8:20)

Yeah.

A (8:20)

That's where he meets us.

B (8:22)

Yeah. This is funny. So this is my third time on the show, and this is a. We've talked about Interior freedom. Both times it's come up. Yeah. Because I loved last time. It was like, remember that? We were both trying to reference it, and I didn't have any. I'm like, what's the book? It's like a blue book. And we called to the guy in the back, and he was able to look it up. Interior Freedom. Jacques. Father Jacques. Philippe. I. It's one of my very favorite books. I love it.

A (8:41)

Yeah. It's really.

B (8:42)

And. And part of it is this whole mind frame of he's just, like, honest about, like. Yeah, exactly what you just said. And he said something along the lines as well, about, like, how the Lord loves us, kind of like where we're at and just kind of who we are. But really, it's like the. Yeah. The response and the growing in holiness is a response to first being loved, even while we're still sinners.

A (9:04)

So I feel like there's a needle. The needle that needs to be thread here. And I wonder what your take is. You know, clearly we shouldn't be praying. Clearly, we shouldn't be attempting to pray the rosary poorly. That would be wrong. Clearly we shouldn't attempt to be praying the rosary in a distracted way. Yes. And yet at the same time, I think there might be something virtuous in choosing a prayer rule and just knowing ahead of time that depending on the day and how much sleep I got last night or what's going on, I'm going to pray it poorly. And I think there's virtue in choosing to continue with a particular prayer rule even when we're praying it poorly. Because otherwise I think you put the sort of pressure on yourself that unless you're going to really mean everything you're doing, then why even bother? You just, it's just vain repetition or something. I don't think that's right either.

B (9:56)

Yep, yeah, absolutely. And there's a, there is a grace to making keeping commitments as well. 100%. And you nailed it. And that's why it's a little bit difficult to have the converse. It's not too difficult. We'll be able to get there. Ideally, it's a conversation that's had one on one with a person where you can get the sense of like where they're actually at. So you can guide them actually helpfully, like specifically for their situation. But like, I think some of the principles we can allay are that number one is that prayer is essential and it's not optional. And daily prayer is essential and not optional. And this is one of the quotes that the catechism has. It's actually one of the strongest, like most sort of like in your face quotes of the, of the catechism is it's quoting Saint Alphonsus Liguori and it goes something like that, like this. It's like those who pray are surely saved, those who do not are surely damned. And so like, prayer is like not optional. It is essential. And the way I like to sort of frame it is that like the spiritual life is a real life and you can kill your plant by covering it, you can kill your plant by cutting it in half, you can kill your plant by uprooting it, or, or you can kill your plant by just not feeding it and eventually that life will die. And similarly with the soul, you can kill the life of God in your soul by committing mortal sin by doing all sorts of stuff, or you can actually slowly just kill the life of God in your soul by not living a spiritual life by not praying. It starves the soul and eventually you do end up with the life dying and you end up in sin. And I think so number one is prayer is essential. Okay, now we're gonna Talk about, okay, how do we actually pray? What's gonna look like for the person and to go. Now it's more specific to the rosary, and I've kind of, like, backed this up with folks like, I think Paul VI might have said something about it. St. Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict. They all like John Paul II in his apostolic exhortation on the most holy rosary with the Blessed Virgin Mary, Pope Benedict xvi. It's like, they both kind of put this thing out there. Like, there's a way in which you can pray the rosary, which is just mechanical and routine and not really prayer. Okay. So there is a way in which you can do it with kind of, like, willed distraction in a way which simulates prayer, but is not, in fact, prayer. And so this, for example, like, as a priest, I'm committed to praying the bravery every day. And so if I'm like, if I've got the bravery, but I've got, like, not in my case, this wouldn't have. We don't have it. But I got the football game on, and I'm like. I'm, like, really watching the football game, but I'm also, like, praying the bravery, and I get through all the prayers. I didn't, like, pray the bravery, which is quite different than if I'm praying it. And I'm like, there. TV's off, but I'm getting distracted.

A (12:45)

Right, that's helpful.

B (12:46)

Yeah. And so there is something of, like, kind of, like, willed, intentional, controlled distraction versus kind of the natural distractions that happen as being a part of a human being. And so there is.

A (13:01)

That's really good.

B (13:02)

Right. So there is some going down to, like, were you really trying? Were you really making good steps? Did you set yourself up for success? Are you also trying to sort of, like, learn where there's steps to learn?

A (13:14)

That's so good. I mean, because there's a lot of people who struggle with scrupulosity, even if they don't give it that name. And the last thing we want is for the takeaway to be, unless you're mean in this, you're not praying. And if you're not praying, you're doing something bad. And we don't like. I don't like. I think a lot of men, especially, are like this, but I'm sure women as well. I don't like engaging things I'm bad at. I tend to shy away from things that expose my poverty. I get frustrated when something happens that I have to tend to, and I feel like an idiot.

B (13:40)

Yep.

A (13:41)

Right. And So I think one of the reasons we don't like prayer, we don't pray, rather, is because we feel like we're not doing it right. But. Oh, that could also be a trick of the devil. Huh? Well, if you're not doing it right, better not to do it. I mean, I don't think anyone's ever said that, but that might be the feeling that we get. So I like that maybe it's kind of the. An analogous distinction to mortal and venial sin, you know? So, like, it's like, yeah, if you. If you're trying to be distracted or not just trying to be distracted. But yeah, as you say, if I'm praying the rosary or reading the Bravery while I've got the TV on, you should know that this isn't conducive to prayer.

B (14:20)

Yeah.

A (14:21)

So you're culpable for that. Yeah, but that's different to. I mean, how many of us had. Everyone's had this experience where you pray the rosary and you get to the end of the decade and realize, I haven't thought about it once, not that mystery once. But then when I do that, which is, you know, not more often than not, but not infrequently, is I'll go, all right, I'll give it three more. I'll just give it three more AVEs, and I'll actually try this time. And I'll just leave it at that.

B (14:51)

Yeah, yeah. And I think kind of, I guess what it can come down to is like, is the distraction within your control or without of your control.

A (14:59)

That's beautifully put. Yeah, that summed it up.

B (15:01)

Because turning off the tv, that's in your control. You're a parent, you're doing all sorts of things. You're trying to pray and your mind is running. You can't just turn off your mind and just turn it to one channel, which is the rosary. You know what I mean? So I think that's really a good way maybe of putting it. It's just like, what's the distraction within your control or without. Of your control? If it's without, of your control, are steps towards limiting this distraction within your control or not as well. But most folks who are trying to pray the rosary, I do think, or trying to pray in general, are in this camp of they're trying their best. The distractions that are happening 100% are just kind of happening.

A (15:39)

Yeah, yeah. And you're trying to please our Lord and our Blessed Mother, and they are, in fact, pleased. What is prayer, Father?

B (15:46)

What is prayer? Well, One of the quotes of the catechism, which I love is like, I think this is the quote is like, prayer is our response to God's thirst for us. So why I'm starting there, even though it can feel a little bit abstract, is that prayer is a response. Prayer is, is a turn of love or turning of our time or attention or raising of our hearts to another who is always and constantly looking upon us with love and attention and the deepest of, like, investment in our lives. And so, like, prayer doesn't start with us. It's not fueled by us. It's not primarily our work. It's a grace that is given by God that is a response to his love of us. So it's a turning of ourselves, of adoration, of worship, it's a giving up, it's a turning of our whole mind, affection, all of our humanity, all that we are to the Lord for Him to see us and to love us, but also to glorify him and to praise him and to sort of rejoice in his goodness, to behold his goodness. Yeah, that's what comes to mind. Yeah.

A (17:11)

And I guess when we talk about prayer, we can talk about different things. Meditation or contemplation or.

B (17:20)

Yeah.

A (17:20)

Mental prayer, which, as Teresa Ravila put it, is just like an ongoing conversation with the God who loves us. Like an intimate conversation with him who loves us.

B (17:29)

Yeah, yeah.

A (17:30)

And that's hard to do. Especially today. Maybe especially today. I know we always chide people who say things like, well, today it was harder than in the past. Like, no, no, no. Every age is the same. It's, you know, I don't know if it is. I think we're all being drowned out by podcasts like this, Although I hope this is a beneficial one. Yeah. Or 24 hour news cycles, or our phone just beeping constantly. And it's like we've put ourselves in a place where it may be almost impossible to pray. I feel the desire to respond to God's invitation to pray.

B (18:03)

Yeah, There's a lot of ways in which there's like, well, this time is the worst ever or whatever that may or not be true. Probably not in a lot of cases. I think in this one it's spot on. I think as far as it has never been harder to pray than it is right now. And there's. Because of technology and how broad it is, there's always something easier and more interesting to do than prayer. And there is a lot of. I mean, I think it's also like. I think there's like A demonic intelligence behind this. Like, I think it's not just sort of human greed, but there's a lot of really smart and talented and well funded people who are trying to get your time and attention and bring it to themselves or their work. Not that they're trying to necessarily bring it away from God, but a fruit of it is making it really hard for you to pay attention, to be present to the Lord. And I think this is where we are getting our inside, outside the church. We're getting our butts kicked by our ongoing use of technology and the way in which it's like invading all of our lives. Particularly the way in which it's like, like I think of this whole thing about like it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom or it's as hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven as it is for like a needle or a camel to get through the eye of a needle. You know, that whole thing is as far as like entertainment goes and interest and like pleasure that can. Like no one, like we, every person who has a smartphone now is richer, if you will, than the richest man 2000 years ago when that scripture was like, when that was said, that story was said because like we all have this huge, if you will, all that treasure could give you of like getting your time, attention, pleasure. We all have it here. And so we are just almost across the board that rich man who need to make some real concrete, challenging decisions regarding relationship with technology and how it is affecting our children and how it is affecting our relationship with the Lord. Like we are just in a. Yeah, I tend to try and be as encouraging as possible, but with this like we are in trouble.

A (20:18)

I remember in my senior year of high school getting into a discussion about a pleasure machine. You know, like this isn't novel, but the idea that there would be this machine that you hook yourself up to and you feel perfectly pleasant, you know, or likewise. I remember thinking, well, imagine if you could just transport yourself anywhere at any time. You know, like maybe after this interview I'll go home and hang out with my mum and dad in Australia and then maybe I'll go who knows where. And in a way the phone kind of mimics those two sci fi ideas, right? That it's this thing that I turn to that makes me immediately what have you. Calm down. As you say, it's this easy thing, but it also kind of transports us. Isn't like it's quite wild that you just, I don't know if you've, you Know, you probably aren't guilty of this because you don't use technology much. And by technology, I'm talking about computers specifically, and modern computers. But sometimes you'll go into your, like, YouTube history, sometimes I'll do that and I'll scroll, scroll through and be shocked at how many videos I've apparently watched over the last 24 hours or have begun to watch and then stopped because that couldn't even keep my attention.

B (21:21)

Yeah, it's.

A (21:22)

It's horrifying.

B (21:22)

Yeah.

A (21:23)

And how many diverse types of videos they were. You know, it wasn't like, on the one track. It was all over the show. And it's based on what the algorithm's feeding me.

B (21:32)

Yeah, yeah. And so that's why, like, when we are, like, on a platform like this, using technology, with rosaring the year, and even like, a lot of people don't know this, but. So I've run our. The Friars Communications for about eight years, and in getting started, the first questions I had were like, should we even be doing this? And what I came across is each year there's a. The church puts out this, like, this document or this declaration. Yeah. Document, we'll call it on the World Church Communications Day. And so each year there's something about communications. And so I kind of went through those from John Paul II and particularly Pope Benedict. And what they kind of all say is, like, hey, there's like, a lot of dangers to this space and we can't just like, leave people here, but that's where people are. And so we need to go in there with, like, discernment and wisdom and also kind of using the best tools, instruments that are out there. Like, we have to do it effectively, but ultimately you need to, like, meet people there and bring them into, like, a real Sacramento life, but bringing them into real, in person community. And so what I think, like, you know, you're doing here, what I think that the rosary in a year hopefully is doing is like, okay, I want to get you're on your phone and there's like a real battle for your eyes and ears because this is where you are. Can we get there in a way that's effective and then bring you ideally in my world, like, and my desire is like, to bring you into a place of like, personal prayer with the Lord. That's like, what we're trying to do. And so I think that some of the good news of something like Rosary in the year is that people are using technology in a positive way and they're willing to allow it to Lead. Like we can effectively lead them into. Away from it and into relationship with the Lord.

A (23:12)

Yeah, I just had this image. I quite enjoy some of these post apocalyptic movies. Was it 28 days later was terrifying and excellent. But you know, the sorts of movies that I mean, where there's a refuge somewhere, and usually the protagonist in the movie is trying to. They discover that there is a refuge and they're trying to make their way to the refuge. And in a way, it feels like that most of the world we'll call it is the Internet. And that's where every. It feels like everyone's living. It's just in the wreckage and the real. I don't know if. Or maybe I've got it backwards. Maybe it's like the real world has become the wreckage as we've all migrated to the world of the Internet or the land of the Internet. And we're trying to bring people out of that fake world through the wreckage to the refuge. And I'm not articulating myself. Well, Father, what do you think, though, about that?

B (24:04)

Well, so I think, like, what I think this was something that Pope Benedict sort of said, and this is just something that is kind of a distinction of terms is that, like, because real people are on this space in their real lives, this is the real world as well, you know? And so it's like, it's a greatly reduced experience of life and of the world, but this is where people are.

A (24:28)

Okay.

B (24:30)

And so I just say that because it's like, the gospel needs to go there. You know, the gospel needs to fake. It's like, it's not fake.

A (24:39)

One thing I kept apologizing for years ago was, and I kept saying, like, stop watching my show. Just go read Thomas Aquinas on your own. You'd be far better off. And I had a lot of really loving pushback, like, please don't do that. Like, this actually led me to the faith, and I got friends who came to the faith because of the show. And when you downplay it, it's not helping anybody. And so there's that too. I mean, I think there's a sense in which that's right. Like, if you could. If someone listened to your podcast and decided to cut 80% of their Internet use and it wouldn't negatively affect their family, say, and they started receiving the sacraments and praying more, you'd be like, victory, of course. But also, we don't want to pretend that what we're doing is ineffectual or a waste of time.

B (25:17)

Correct? Yeah. Yes. In an ideal, healthy world. How much of this online stuff exists versus people doing it in person, I don't know. But we live in the real world and this is where people are. And so we need. The gospel needs to be here as well, you know? Yeah. So, like, I've struggled with, like, we've, again, I run social media for the Friars, and we've made a decision for multiple reasons about not like we have an Instagram account, not opening TikTok, and not like, having a TikTok account. And so the argument for it is that's where people are, that's growing. That's where the next generation is, all this sort of stuff.

A (26:08)

But you draw the line at TikTok. Well, because Instagram's kind of become TikTok in many senses.

B (26:13)

Maybe.

A (26:14)

Maybe just with the reels you get fed. But it is more substantive, I think.

B (26:18)

Anyway, I don't really know. And I'm not that this is actually, like, never going to change, but something that I just kind of took into account pretty seriously. Like, okay, if we go and open a TikTok, and now some of the people who. Because you kind of have to have a different type of content on there. It's a different sort of platform, at least I think so. I don't want people to follow us now into this new space, which is obviously so addicting. And so there is some sort of, like, discernment of like, okay, we're like.

A (26:47)

You'Re not Gonna open an OnlyFans account to, you know, that is like a porn site. You're not gonna start one of those and start a Franciscan just so you can maybe read the Bible. Cause, hey, that's where people are, and we gotta be there proclaiming the gospel. Yeah, we know that somewhere we should draw the line. We're just not sure on where to. Yeah, yeah.

B (27:04)

And so that's just. This is one. It's like, this has obviously shown itself to be highly popular and extremely effective at getting people and getting people to stay here for a long time. We can't be naive about, like, if we open that. If we open a TikTok account, people are only going to watch Catholic content for a short period of time, then go back to their normal lives. They're going to get sucked into the whole algorithm and all that sort of stuff. And so we need to. Yeah, we need to be where people are, and we need to be strategic and we need to be bold, but we also need to be very discerning about not what's just good for us and our Platform and our podcast and our work. But we have to take into account, like, what's going to be good for the souls of those we are trying to serve and to minister to, who are listening, who are watching, et cetera.

A (27:49)

Are you seeing people make headway in this space? Like, are people beginning to pray? Are people making. I think I am. I actually do. I think there's some really excellent things that you can do to sort of limit that noise that then just makes prayer more easier or less hard. But are you seeing that in the Catholic world, are people beginning to pray? Are they beginning to put technology in its place? Whatever.

B (28:14)

Yeah. So. So, you know, to use kind of the gospel image, I think the weeds and the wheat are growing together. There's a both. And I think the, I think the overall effect right now of the use of social media is particularly in the area of young people and their addiction to pornography and anxiety and all this sort of stuff. I think the net outcome right now is negative and probably significantly negative on the culture and general society as a whole. I think for individual people, there's many for whom it is positive and who are actually have been influenced and engaged by it in a way which is helping them, help them to a deeper experience of prayer, a deepening of their religious life or their own spiritual lives brought them to religious life, brought them into the Catholic faith. Certainly again, like Rosa in the year, the best feedback is that I'm like praying like I've never prayed before. It's like, so is it possible? Is it effective? Yes. Nonetheless, is the average age right now, you know, in which a young person is being exposed to pornography, like absurdly, grossly low? Yes. Like, is that a huge problem? Yeah. So social media as a whole, it's like, can good come out, come out of it? Yes. Are people praying? Yes. Is it an ideal way to have Catholic conversation to learn about your faith, about more sensitive issues? Maybe not.

A (29:46)

I want to tell you about Hallow, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hallowed.com Matt Frad sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time you can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hallow.com Matt Frad I use it, My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music including my lo fi. Hallow has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hallow.com mattfrad the link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you can play little Bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com mattfrad and is it.

B (30:45)

Is there some other places that are pretty dark and pretty negative? Yeah. And I speak of that from the space of working religious life where we have. We're presented with young men who are serious about the Lord and who want to follow him and even give their lives to him. And the big struggle now is a capacity question. It's not a good intention, it's not a desires question. It's a capacity question which has highly been affected, and it's obvious by the advent of the smartphone and the ways in which it is kind of undercut men in the area of chastity, but also just people in the area of like, like their mental health and their grit and their. Their overall, like, wellness and strength, which is like a human foundation for the spiritual life to grow.

A (31:32)

Yeah. Yeah. It's. You could probably, perhaps make an analogy between, you know, entertainment and food. You know, if you've grown up your whole life just eating Doritos and drinking Pepsi. Skittles.

B (31:46)

Yeah.

A (31:46)

Then a nice steak and a glass of red wine might not even appeal to you because the junk food's easier. Like, it's easier to get. It's easier to store and keep. It's easier to consume. Yeah. But it'll make you sick. And social media.

B (32:02)

Yeah.

A (32:03)

Is kind of like that. I think it just pulls out the worst in us, like rash judgment and slander. We're not in a place where we're thinking things through logically. Yeah. Yeah.

B (32:15)

And, you know, like, I think some of it's subtle. My dad's. I don't know if this is why this is in my world. My dad's like an attorney. He's a trial attorney. And one thing that. So I've kind of been around the American legal system a little bit. One of the things that as I've grown older, I've grown to appreciate more and more is the amount of time and effort, according to my judgment, made to make it a fair trial where there's like, you're trying to, like, everyone gets an attorney. You know, they're like, we're gonna have an attorney. And that there's like, okay, the prosecution has a period of time, and then the defense has a period of time, and we're all kind of like, doing what we can to make sure that we are not just trying to condemn a person or not condemn a person or have this side win or that side, but we're trying to get to the truth. And the difficulty with the way in which a lot of conversations, Debates happen, including Catholic Spaces Online, is people use the word echo chamber. But also you could just say it's like you're only and exclusively listening to the prosecution. And what ends up happening is, like, it all starts to make sense, and there's no sort of fair, informed, like, counter arguments, or you're only listening to the other side. And so people are getting, like, swayed in certain directions, and things are getting more and more divided because some of these conversations haven't. Haven't overly prioritized, like, making this not just a conversation about this or that, but having to be like a real, genuine kind of, what's it like? Search of truth with all of the necessary kind of components of a sincere search for truth, which often is going to include people on different sides of a conversation, both having the same, like, talking at the same place at the same time. Does that make sense?

A (34:01)

Yeah, it does a lot, you know, So I want to make your same point or see if it's similar. One of the nice things about growing up in a family, growing up among people, is that the behavior you engage in, you have a sort of. You have an immediate feedback as to whether that was appropriate or not. Jordan Peterson has this, I think, excellent rule where he says, don't let your kids do things that make you hate them. And you could understand that in a bad way. But, I mean, the idea is like, yeah, like, you want your children to. To act in a way that other people will find agreeable, all things being equal, you know, and our identity is being confirmed within our families, perhaps, you know, for good or bad. But social media seems to be an identity confirmer, Right? Because no matter what view you have, it could be anything, and it could be vile or it could be virtuous. If you throw it out there, someone will agree with you and praise you for the view that you just said. Isn't that bananas? Like, I could say something about Hitler, pro or con, or I could say something about the Catholic Church, pro or con. I could say the most vile thing Imaginable Someone somewhere will tell me I'm courageous for having whatever view it is that I have. And so I think, in a way, I think this is Brian Holdsworth's point. Dear friend of mine. Yeah. He said that social media is like an identity confirmer. So you'll say something, people will rally around you, and then you'll feel more secure in that view. And then, even if it was crazy, what you just said, you'll double down on that view, and then you'll somehow think that you're this sort of person or that sort of person. So it's almost like instead of the loving family that's meant to help you navigate how to act, how to think.

B (35:45)

Yeah.

A (35:45)

Social media may have become that. Or what do you think? Is that right or not?

B (35:50)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And, yeah, I think there's a lot. A lot of levels to it. Right. Because certainly it can be. It doesn't have to be. And that's where people have to be actually courageous and to actually have some of these bold takes which are speaking to a very clearly established body of people. And you're just speaking to the choir, but it might be bold to other people. That's actually not super bold because you feel like these are your people and, you know they're gonna like it and you're not really concerned about these people. And so you're gonna say something which may not be 100% true, but you're speaking to your family, and, you know, this is what your family says and cares about, like, to be bold sometimes in Catholic spaces. Because we don't necessarily. We don't actually fit into small, tidy, really clean boxes to really profess the Catholic faith. If you're really gonna do it, it's gonna have the opposite effect because you're gonna get.

A (36:42)

You're gonna upset everybody. So when you say we should take care of the immigrant.

B (36:46)

Correct.

A (36:47)

Right. Yeah.

B (36:47)

Yeah.

A (36:48)

We should love the homeless or people shouldn't be committing acts of fornication. You're gonna upset everybody.

B (36:56)

Correct. And so that's where I think that's the temptation and the tendency that particularly ordained pastors, like priests, really need to very consciously be aware of how we are feeling. That and very, very, like, consciously step into not getting pulled into a particular family that's not the Roman Catholic Church. And what she teaches and how she worships and what she believes and how she loves in her totality. And so to.

A (37:29)

Yeah, yeah. Because we all have these, like, signal words and signal actions that signal to each other that we're in the same group. And they're not necessarily bad. You know, like, when we Catholics sit down, I might say something about the Blessed Mother or the Holy Father or. Right.

B (37:45)

Yeah.

A (37:45)

Or you might see my rosary or my scapular. And this is just. This isn't merely to do that, but it's at least a consequence that it signals to you that we're on the same team. And I think, likewise, as politics becomes the new religion for many people and we can all slip into that, I think, you know, maybe you shy away from saying certain things that the Church does teach because it's a signal for the team you don't want to be on. And maybe you've got good reason to not want to be on.

B (38:16)

Yeah.

A (38:17)

Yeah.

B (38:18)

100%. And this is part of the experience of, if you will, again, like, your pastors. And by pastors, I mean your priests and your bishops who are leading parishes and who are leading diocese with a whole collection of people in it is. We are, like, we're trying. We're not. And we're getting attacked for it. So it's like, I'm out praying, you know, the rosary in front of an abortion clinic, and I'm being called, like, a fascist, you know, and this is. This is all real stuff. I'm upholding the Catholic Church's teaching on human sexuality and the human person. And I'm a bigot. I am. I'm trying to worship and to guide people to worship according to, like, what the Church asked me to do. And I could be a modernist or there was another. Yeah. Or a traditionalist or. Or. Yeah.

A (39:14)

Well, I mean, in the negative sense.

B (39:15)

Sure.

A (39:15)

Yeah.

B (39:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're praying. Yeah, you're praying.

A (39:18)

You're.

B (39:18)

You're praying a rosary, and you're something. Or you're wearing a habit, and now you're like, you know, something. And it's just like. And I. And this is one of the things that I believe Francis lived. And this is something that I feel like the, like, the deepest parts of my heart is like, I want to be a faithful son of the Church. And, like, that's it. I want to think like the church. I want to love as the church invites me to love. I want to worship as the church asked me to worship, like, with all of my life and all of my heart. Like, I want to be a faithful son and of the Church. And I. And it's just like. And there's so much division and so much, like, working against that. It, like, it really, like. It, like, tears me up to see. To see the growing division. And it's like. And it's so hard because of how the conversations are happening. It's so hard to just, like, we're just getting so divided and there's new divisions happening, it seems like every day. And again, as a priest, as a Franciscan, as a Christian, as it does it just like, hopefully as a father to God and his people or a father to God's people, like, it really hurts. And.

A (40:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder what you think about this. I think one way to think of it is there are certain things that Holy Mother Church demands. There are certain things that Holy Mother Church encourages. There are certain things that Holy Mother Church condemns or permits. Right. There's different categories here, and we gotta get them right. You know? And so maybe part of the reason the Church can feel divided might be because we're saying the Church is commanding something when she isn't. So, like, if someone were to accuse a Ukrainian Catholic priest of celebrating the Divine Liturgy as being schismatic, well, what they've done is they're demanding something that the Church hasn't. Or if I say to somebody, unless you pray the rosary every day, you're actually not a good Catholic. Now I'm demanding something the Church doesn't. And so I agree with you that there's a lot of division within the church. But I also think in some sense the church is a bigger tent than perhaps we realize we might jump onto a particular devotion or a particular what have you, and it blesses us. And so then we talk about that as if it were essential when the Church has not said it's essential.

B (41:52)

Yep. A million. Yeah, 100%. And that's kind of even. Again, I'm glad you brought specifically the rosary example. That's why, like, to act like so much of, like, the beginning introduction to like, the Rosary of the Year format has been sort of being aware of people who are going to be really kind of put off by a Catholic priest saying you don't actually have to pray the full Rosary every day. Yeah, that's, you know, that's just not. It's not a precept of the Church. Right. Do you need to pray every day? Yeah. Is the rosary, like a proven and privileged devotion, Maybe even the Queen devotions? Yeah. Do you need to pray it every day? In its totality? Actually, no. And it's. It is quite dangerous and hurtful to put a burden on people that God and the Church don't put on people.

A (42:42)

So that would be missing up. Right. So I think it's fair to say the Church encourages the Holy Rosary. Not just permits, clearly is encouraging, but isn't demanding. Correct. Similarly. And it comes from both sides. Like if I prefer the Latin Mass and then I get called a schismatic for finding this preferable and having arguments for why I think it's preferable. I think that is also to fall into that error.

B (43:05)

Say that one more time.

A (43:06)

If I personally prefer to attend the Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo. And that's all I'm saying. There's definitely people that will accuse me of being a schismatic and I'm not correct. Yeah. So I'm just saying it happens from both sides. It happens from the side that's demanding more tradition. And if you don't agree with them, like the Rosary every day or something.

B (43:27)

But it's also.

A (43:28)

It also comes from the other side where if I extol the beauty of the Latin Mass or even say the Byzantine Liturgy or something like that, then I'm somehow engaging in the liturgy wars. That's what I'm saying.

B (43:40)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think probably I'd be curious. I guess. I think we've gone through a shift and I could be wrong and you can kind of push back on. It is, I think. Right. 30 or 40 years ago, those who were doing more like established traditional signs of piety would have been like name called. Whereas now we've kind of swung back in a lot of ways, I think, you know, in a very, very, very positive way. And now more of the. The correction is coming from the more traditional side, I think.

A (44:23)

I think online, like, online, there's a lot of aggressive voices that maybe. Look, if. Even if they're not, one can have the impression that they're looking down their nose at me. What do you want from me? I just, I go to my church up the road. Why are you treating me like this? But then the traditionalist feels like, well, no, actually we've been pushed into this corner and we feel like you're not taking our plight seriously.

B (44:46)

Yeah. And let me walk back what I said. I think that's. I completely agree with what you just said. And walk back what I said is because, like, 100%, if you go into some Catholic church, right. That's had music done one way that isn't just envisioned by, like, you know, the Second Vatican Council, and you try and bring in something that has been, which is gonna be more traditional, you're going to hear a lot, you're going to get a lot of Emails saying, you know, this is taking us back and it's whatever, whatever, whatever. Yeah, 100%.

A (45:13)

Yeah. I wonder how much of this is. Again, just this desire for safety, you know, like, I don't want to fight anymore. The culture's nuts. I can't have that into the church. But of course, it has entered the church. And so we're just sort of at each other's throat, demanding that everybody sort of get on with our thing. But if we would just accept the fact that churches really, really big and there are all sorts of devotions that might not make any sense to you, but they don't have to. Yeah, like, the Infinite Prague thing doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't need to because the church is universal and so I can respect it and be grateful for it and cheer on those who are super into it, but I don't need to pray. I'm sure there's some kind of Chaplet Prague.

B (45:52)

I don't know.

A (45:53)

But I don't need to be into that, and that's okay. And you don't have to, like.

B (45:57)

Yeah. And I do, you know, you know, restore the glory. Dr. Bob.

A (46:05)

Do I.

B (46:06)

And Jake Kim.

A (46:07)

Right.

B (46:07)

So.

A (46:07)

So there's terrific, terrific podcast for those out there. Restore the Glory. I just want to give my full throat endorsement.

B (46:11)

Go check them out. A huge. A hugely helpful and timely resource for people talking about using social media. Well. Or media. Well, that is a prime example. I was on. Because I'm not gonna get into the whole thing now, but I was on there maybe a year ago to do an episode about safety and some of the things that are there to make somebody feel safe. And I kind of wanted to talk about that for a second with you because when we first sat down, we were talking about some of the situation. You mentioned kind of your desire to help people feel safe. And then the safety word came up, and I think that is such. That's like. What's happening so much is that people are hurt, people are, and people are afraid. And so movement. Ways in which we feel safety are to surround ourselves with our own people. Ways in which we feel safety are to create very, very clear, concrete rules. Like rules can help us, because inconsistency and not knowing what's going to happen, it's super vulnerable.

A (47:11)

It's chaos. Yep.

B (47:14)

We're going to set rules and very clear rules and concrete rules, and we might add more and more rules, but really what's happening is we're just trying to feel safe and we're not safe. We're hurt, we're scared, we're vulnerable. And I think this, like recognizing this and owning this and naming this brings a lot more like empathy and compassion into these conversations.

A (47:36)

I love you. Yes, that's correct. You know, we made fun of. And maybe we were right to make fun of them from one perspective, but not from another. The safe spaces that popped up in universities 10, 15 years ago.

B (47:52)

Sure.

A (47:52)

Remember all these universities?

B (47:54)

Not really. I know the idea. I don't really know the details.

A (47:56)

But if they felt threatened or that they felt unsafe because some lecturer was offending them on the thinnest grounds, there was a place for them to go with crayons. And maybe my point is, sure, maybe some of that needs to be made fun of. But when people are afraid, whether they have a right to be, that is to say, whether it kind of lines up with objective reality or it doesn't, the experience is the same. It's like when someone says, don't be defensive. Well, if you think you're being attacked, defensive is precisely what you should be. It would be wrong of you not to be defensive.

B (48:28)

Yeah.

A (48:28)

And I think it's. I think that's right. I think we just feel afraid. A lot of people feel very afraid and we're just desperate for security.

B (48:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And right. Some of the, for me at least, is like a working concept. Some of the ideas of like, like, what needs to be there in a context for us to be. Feel safe and actually be safe are they do include like physical safety and like, sort of like that is like a reality which can include like, includes the emotional life, but also like consistency. For example, if somebody has like an alcoholic parent and you never know what you're going to get, you're not going to feel safe at home. Clear rules and justly enforced rules are all actually part of safety. And so if like, for example, this is like a very mundane example. Well, I guess I won't say that, but like, what's happening is just that, like, and it's so real and it actually needs to be reverenced and respected is that the reality is that a lot of people have taken their families or their kids into mass or into a conversation with father and had a very, very negative experience with father who has said something that is just clearly not like, not what the church teaches, I think. And this is like an example. I have friends who. It was like right after Covid, the first time they were able to go back to mass with a family was Corpus Christi or it Was, yeah, Feast of Corpus Christi, body and blood of our Savior. Right on. So it would have been June of like 2020. And then the priest there has uses this feast of like the body and blood of our Lord to like promote this sort of like LGBT agenda that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. And then they're going home having to explain this new vocabulary to their nine or ten year old son. And so this is very. So. And I think this family's kind of gone now. It's like more sort of traditional spaces sought out more sort of extraordinary form spaces. And it all you have to like say like that totally makes sense because it's like you go to these parish and this church or you go to confession and you just don't know what guidance this priest is going to give to my kid. I'm going to go somewhere where I know what I'm going to get and that's like, that makes sense. Like there's a lot of safety there, you know, and there's a lot of hurt there. And I think that is all like justified, you know, I don't know, like thoughts about that.

A (50:57)

Yeah, no, I think I see where you're going with that. I think the danger might be where. Well, what is the danger? Maybe where you see danger, where there isn't danger because you've been so scandalized and so you start talking about all Novus Auto masses as clown masses or something like that. That's unfair. I've used this analogy multiple times. I've touched on it here, the idea that no one can live in chaos. And so if there is a storm outside that is threatening to kill you, you need safety. And then once you've found it, you cling to it with dear life and nothing will have you. You don't want to get out of that place anymore. And a lot of people feel that way, I think. And so here's an example, right? Maybe you're in the chaos of culture and church and then you found some YouTuber that had very strong views, maybe incorrect views. But you, you, you. It was like a foothold that kept you from falling. And then you're going to treat them with this undue reverence and attack anybody who's critical of that person, because if that person's wrong, then it's chaos again. Then I'm falling again and I can't fall again. So I have to. I don't know if I'm making sense or if I'm just boring people at this point, but this has been a lot Of I think what I've seen.

B (52:16)

Yeah. And to maybe not to be rude, but to respond to myself or to correct myself as I'm thinking out loud here a little bit is I also don't want to give the impression from what I just said that the only reason people are seeking out like the extraordinary form of the mass in places where that's offered in those cultures is some sort of negative. Negative, running from something else.

A (52:37)

Right.

B (52:38)

There are people who, who have just found something true and beautiful there and have found themselves attracted to it. So I don't want to like. Yeah. At the same time, to like make it messy in a different circumstance is like. And yeah, I'll just bring up again on sort of like the immigration topic is like, you know, I lived in Honduras for a couple years and to make a long story short, there's a time where a very, very good family we had and like a very, very good dad decided it was time to bring his family to the US because they were at a seven year old's birthday party and there was a shooting. And so he's like, my family's not safe here. And so we're gonna go try to find somewhere that is safe.

A (53:22)

Not sure America is the place you'd want to come to. Sorry.

B (53:25)

Sure.

A (53:25)

Well, you know, I'm joking.

B (53:27)

I shouldn't have joked. Yeah. But so it's like if we. Right. And not everyone is trying to come to the U.S. for that reason, you know, Certainly. But there is just some like, room for. I think if we can see the ways and we can kind of, if we can have a meeting point of like, here's all these places that I've been hurt and here's all these places in which things have gone wrong and we're making decisions like seeking safety because, like, we're hurt and we're afraid that could be like a really compassionate place of connection to build some of these other more controversial conversations that are very, very nuanced and et cetera.

A (54:08)

Are you having them with regular people, do you find?

B (54:15)

No, only because I live in a, in real life, I live in a bit of a bubble. My real life currently is a bit of a bubble. Is I. Again.

A (54:28)

Bubbles are okay.

B (54:29)

Yeah, I'm okay with bubbles.

A (54:30)

Yeah.

B (54:31)

I'm a Franciscan. I mean, you know, like 330 days of the year, I'm with the exact same people.

A (54:37)

Good. Well, see, this is what, 500 years ago or 300 or 100 years ago, people just called society.

B (54:43)

Yeah.

A (54:43)

Like, bubbles are good. That's just how Humans have lived forever.

B (54:45)

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Some people called them families. Yeah, yeah.

A (54:53)

Yeah. I just wrote a book. I'm going to give it to you. I hope you'll read it, or at least read the first chapter and then decide if it's worth it. It's called Jesus, Our Refuge. And the point is that he's the safe space.

B (55:05)

Yep.

A (55:07)

Anthony Padua, your brother, said that there are multiple reasons that Christ showed his wounds to the disciples after his resurrection. And one of them was to show the church where they can hide from the attacks of the enemy like a dove might hide from the hawk. Yeah. And I make this. I point also to Jeremiah, chapter 2, where God says, My people have committed two evils. They've forsaken me. They've built cisterns that don't even work, which I've always found funny. And so those cisterns that don't even work seem to me to be the ways in which we try to get along and live the good life separate from him, from the good Jesus who loves us. And they don't work, and we end up exhausted. And it's Christ's words, I forget where, because I'm a good Catholic, where He says, just be careful, lest your heart grow weary with drunkenness and carousing and the cares of life. Which is a funny statement, because I feel like I would look at him confused and be like, what are you talking about? That's why I go to those things. Precisely because I'm weary. They're not making me weary. I'm weary. That's why I'm getting drunk and doing sexual stuff. And so it's interesting to have God say, be careful. These things that you think are the cure are actually the poison. Isn't that an interesting way to look at it? But that he's our refuge and we can take him seriously when he says, come to me, you who are weary and burdened. And this intimacy that we can have in prayer with Christ is not for the spiritual elite. It's the point of the Christian life. So we're not called, perhaps, to have the stigmata or levitation or something like this, but we are called to an ongoing dynamic intimacy with a God who's always present to us. And that's hard to believe. Like, it's actually hard to understand, because I'd rather think of God. Not rather. But I think it would be easier to think of God as a beekeeper who just sort of looks at us as a collective. He's present to us as a giant blob of humanity trying to imagine how it's possible for God, whatever that means, to be personally and attentive to me while also being attentive to everybody else on earth and everything else in universe.

B (57:21)

Yeah.

A (57:21)

I don't understand that at all. And so when I start thinking like that, it kind of short circuits my ability to then accept that as the truth. And yet the Christian faith says that he is. Yeah, it's bananas that he is. He is not, to use a human expression, taken his eyes off of me since the moment of my conception, that he is familiar with all of my little Matt Fradd ways, that he knows how many hairs are on my head, which is probably getting increasingly easier for him over the years. But that's wonderful.

B (58:00)

Can I ask. Can I ask a question?

A (58:02)

Of course.

B (58:03)

Is. And I could be wrong. Is it because from what I've seen, like, this. This book, and like the word of the book, if you will, feels like something you're very passionate about, correct?

A (58:18)

Yeah. What I'm saying right now is everything to me. And.

B (58:23)

It would be. I don't know if you're open to talking about, like. Because if that doesn't just come from nowhere necessarily, it comes from how that has been true and, like, real concrete stuff of your life. Is that. Is that true? You've experienced this?

A (58:36)

Yeah, of course. Absolutely. I think it's a lot easier to treat Christianity as a syllogism or a moral system that will get your life on track, and it can then be used to sort of bludgeon your enemies into submission. If you're good at arguing. Yeah. And I'm not saying there's no that. That's. There's a look. It's the truest of philosophies and the most beautiful of moralities, but that I personally have encountered Christ and I've experienced his love for me, and it made everything better. Truthly is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help, you know, live and defend the Catholic faith with clarity and confidence. Whether you're navigating a tough conversation, deepening your understanding, or looking for daily spiritual guidance, Truthly is your companion on the journey. It's like if ChatGPT went through OCIA, got baptized, and made it its mission to proclaim the truth of. Of the Catholic Church. But Truthly is more than just a Q and A tool. It's formation in your pocket. Take audio courses on topics like the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Eucharist, Purgatory, and why the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ. Each course is designed to Be accessible, engaging and deeply rooted in the teachings of the church. You'll also receive daily audio reflections, short, powerful meditations to help you grow in prayer and stay grounded in your spiritual life.

B (60:08)

Life.

A (60:09)

Already downloaded by thousands of people worldwide, Truthly is transforming the way we learn, share and live our faith. One question, one course and one prayer at a time. Start your seven day free trial today. Download Truthly on the App Store. And I. And sometimes I've experienced it in very profound ways. And my life got immediately better when I heard his voice, when I saw his gaze, when I asked him a question, and believe I heard what he said about me. You know how it's like another analogy to food. My wife always says, listen to your body, because she deals with a lot of health problems and she tends to eat carnivore but isn't pushing that on other people. She always says, like, listen to your body. And I think that's good advice. You know, like if you, if you start eating in a way and you're getting sick and tired. All right, well, and then you start eating in a way and you immediately, or maybe not immediately, but gradually, like, everything works. Like, my joints don't hurt. You know, we hear people who say these sorts of things. That's what I experience when I have intimacy with our Lord in prayer. Everything works better. I'm less afraid. I'm more confident in his love for me. So I don't want to forsake that intimacy for like a syllogism or just telling the world to get on board with not fornicating and being racist so we can all be do better.

B (61:35)

Why?

A (61:36)

And that's tidier. That's easier, right? The syllogism and the morale, that's easier. The intimacy with Christ where I allow him into the parts of me that I hate about myself and let him look at them like, Peter, get away from me. I'm a sinful man. Like a song of songs, chapter two. Like Come Away With Me. Yeah, that and I'm the dove in the cleft of the rock. Not wanting him to look at me because I don't like it.

B (62:01)

Why is that? Why do you kind of give that experience of the Lord the word refuge?

A (62:08)

Because it's because we live in a world at war. And to try to understand Christianity without reference to that spiritual war is to not understand Christianity. So the world and the flesh and the devil exist, or the world understood properly are pulling us away from reality and they're isolating us and we need to bury ourselves in the wounds of Christ so that we can be alive again, come back to reality again.

B (62:41)

Yeah.

A (62:42)

I hope I'm not just saying fluff words because I mean it. Do you think that makes sense to you?

B (62:46)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

A (62:48)

Back to our boy Jacques Philippe. I mean that. Sorry, Jeff, for leaf other struggle in that book. He says, like, there's no place else. There's no way you can feel more at home and comfortable. There's no place that you can drop your shoulders than in the gaze of the loving father. And so, like, we have a paraclete, which they tell me is a word meaning defense attorney. Someone who comes to the assistance of somebody in a sort of legal case. That's what the Holy Spirit is called. That's awesome.

B (63:22)

Yeah.

A (63:23)

We have the enemy called the accuser of our brethren, but it's like we sometimes get that backwards. We thought that God was our accuser and that the enemy is where we would find life. But then when we went to the enemy and sinned to find life, it didn't work. And it's like the angel saying to us, why do you seek the living among the dead? Like, curious. Like Christ was curious when he's like, be careful.

B (63:48)

Yeah.

A (63:48)

And he's not making any sense to us because we bought into what the world told us would actually relieve us.

B (63:54)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (64:01)

Usually in a place like this, I'd feel super vulnerable about all I just shared and I'd say something self deprecating, like, I don't know, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but this is the only thing I know. Yeah, I'm exactly right.

B (64:12)

Yeah.

A (64:13)

Yeah.

B (64:14)

And it's, it's. I hope we don't mind going in this direction. Is my experience of you is very much in this. Is that the best work that you're doing and the best things about you, your viewers have no idea about and meaning, like just that. And you see it like there's like these minor interactions between you and your wife, which are so beautiful and give such a testimony to actually, like the husband, the man, the disciple, the father that you are. And this like this right here. And I bring it here for two reasons. One is that I think this is like, you're not just a podcaster. You're first and foremost a Christian. And I think that's come through in a lot of ways. And this book and the reason and the format of the book and some of what you're kind of talking about, it's like so clearly that you're living a real spiritual life and that you care and that life's not easy. And you're really bringing, like, real life with all that it is and all of its messiness, like, to the Lord in a really beautiful way. And I say that just to kind of, like, see and to recognize it and kind of affirm it, but also, like, there's. This is where I think it's like, the beauty of our faith is like, that actually, like, that there's all this other stuff happening where people know you for one thing, or a lot of people know you for one thing, but there's a lot more happening below the scenes that can actually be a very isolating and lonely place where, like, we need to be fathered by God, you know, where Jesus needs to be, like, see us and love us and be our refuge. Maybe that wasn't a smooth, like, mixture of things, but, like, do you have the experience? I don't know. Like, I guess. Yeah. What? Do you have any response to what I just said?

A (66:11)

I don't. There was a. I don't know if I fully understand it, if I'm honest with you.

B (66:16)

Sure. Yeah. Fair enough. Is. I'll just say this is like.

A (66:22)

You.

B (66:22)

Go out, you go to seek. People are gonna be. Yeah. I love your podcast. I love your podcast. Right. I don't think the thing that you care about most is your podcast.

A (66:33)

I hope not.

B (66:34)

Yeah. Yeah. But I think that you. What you care about most is being a good man and a good husband and a good disciple and a good father. And I think that you're actually putting a lot of time and effort into that.

A (66:43)

Thank you. I hope that's true.

B (66:45)

Yeah.

A (66:45)

I tend to be quite cynical about myself. I think that's safer.

B (66:48)

Yeah.

A (66:49)

We've all met people who thought they were great people, and we're like, I don't know. So I tend to side. But the father thinks that of me. He says beautiful things to me all the time.

B (66:57)

Yeah.

A (66:58)

And those beautiful things, when I hear them, don't make me more solipsistic and arrogant. They actually free me to love people's poverty.

B (67:04)

Yeah.

A (67:05)

I no longer hate the girl with the blue hair and the ripped jeans and the shorts everywhere anymore. I love her, but when I'm away from him, then I'm unsafe, and now I need to press everyone else who's not like me away from me.

B (67:18)

Yeah.

A (67:19)

That was nice, what you said about my wife. What do you mean? Have you been around us or.

B (67:24)

No. You know, every now and then. Like, I'm not a big consumer of content in general, but every now and then there's like, an interaction, like, with your big. Like the. Your announcement of, like, your big move.

A (67:34)

Are you watching?

B (67:35)

She's there, and she's kind of, like, making.

A (67:36)

She's so cool, dude. She's the best.

B (67:39)

And there's a little feedback about, like, here's when I was thinking about moving or doing this, and, like, the ways in which she's supportive. And you guys are really kind of open to, like, bold steps for the Lord. There's a lot there.

A (67:49)

What do you mean?

B (67:50)

In a beautiful way? Like, that's just like, you know, I mean, like, it's clearly, like, there's a strong foundation laid.

A (67:55)

Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. She's great. She's a really good person. And marriage is. Is really hard sometimes, But it's healing.

B (68:14)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (68:16)

Living with another human being. Well, you do that, but, I mean, in a more intense way. I do that, I suppose, in one sense, and raise children with this other human being. And I remember Father Boniface, my spiritual father, once said to me, because I had a question about marriage and something that was bothering me, and he's like, there's enough in your marriage to teach you what you need to know. Which I thought was like a Yoda answer.

B (68:41)

Yeah, I think.

A (68:42)

I think advice is sometimes unhelpful. Kind of what we said earlier. You found this devotion great. And now it becomes the litmus test for you to be the faithful Catholic. It's like that with, like, dieting, exercising, how your marriage should look, the roles you should play in your marriage. I mean, there are general principles. I understand that. But sometimes it's unhelpful because we're all so insecure about what we're doing and afraid that we're not doing it right. And so you latch onto somebody who's super confident on the Internet and try to. Try to take on their views. And then you might see that your marriage is actually getting much worse than it could often.

B (69:16)

Sure. Yeah.

A (69:17)

Does that make sense?

B (69:18)

Yeah, totally.

A (69:19)

So. And I met.

B (69:20)

I don't know.

A (69:21)

We're also different. Different histories, different aspirations, different temperaments. That sometimes advice can be unhelpful.

B (69:27)

Right, right. Which is exactly where we were kind of talking about, like, how to pray and with the rosary and stuff, like, to really help somebody there. First of all, they want. They have to come to me asking for help. And then it's like, let's talk about your very specific situation. You know, because we are just so unique in all of those. All the particulars of our states in life and our Situations, you know, matter with the understanding. Right. That there are some clear cut guidance that we have. But with like the part of. The confusing part, which I apologize for being confusing and maybe sort of like imposing some of my own life experience into your life experience is the potential sort of like loneliness of success or the potential loneliness of. Of. Of.

A (70:23)

So this is good. This is what you meant when you. I didn't understand.

B (70:25)

Yeah.

A (70:25)

And that's why you talk about that. What do you mean?

B (70:27)

Like, so there's like three things coming together that are, you know, one of the, the realities of like this, these, these, this platform is it's like a conversation, like a talk. So if I was like giving a talk, I would have this clearly lined up. You know, so it's a little bit, it's a little bit sloppy. It's also the part of it that's like when I go home afterwards, I'm like, well, I didn't say that exactly how I wanted to know.

A (70:51)

You're a man knows how to have a conversation. I love talking to you.

B (70:53)

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Is. I'll give one specific and then we can kind of get or one out there and then I can get more personal. Is. Do you know who Shohei Ohtani is?

A (71:02)

I've heard the name, but I don't know.

B (71:04)

Okay. All right, so Sh. Ohtani is a. He's a baseball player on the Dodgers who is the guy who both pitches at an elite level and hits at an elite level. And he's. He is like he has had games or seasons that have never happened before and will never happen before. That makes.

A (71:25)

Again.

B (71:26)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Excuse me. Will never happen again. Right. And I saw this, this recent sort of quote attributed to his dad. I saw it on the media. So I don't know if it's totally 100% true, but the sentiment is really beautiful. Is his son, his dad was saying something along the lines of like, like when my son does all of these things and has these great successes, I feel like my heart feels for him and almost like in a compassionate way and almost like I kind of feel bad for him because I'm aware that now more and more expectations are being placed upon him that's gonna be like experienced as a burden really hard for him to reach. And I think that's just such like a really beautiful testimony to like how like somebody can be fathered in this place of their life and their experience of life that's quite like hidden from everybody else and probably maybe even the opposite of what Other people think. And so that. That was just, I thought, like, super beautiful. The way in which his father sees him and the way which his father meets him amidst all of the crowd in a totally unique but, like, 100%, like, essential way. Does that make some sense?

A (72:39)

Yes.

B (72:40)

Yeah. And so I was just.

A (72:43)

And you. And are you trying to apply that to me?

B (72:45)

Well, I guess I was. What I was sort of forcing upon you is some of the. My own experience of, like, one thing is happening out there that people are experiencing you in one way that's doing some public stuff, but then there's another experience of it which is kind of unique and separate and needs to be fathered. And there's a lot. There's part of the thing on my heart which is kind of driving this. And I'll kind of go back to the rosary in the year is just, like, this need for all of my heart and all of my experience. Okay. By baptism, I know that I am like a son of God and I'm not an orphan, but there are parts of my life in my heart which can still have an orphan experience because I haven't been fathered or mothered there.

A (73:29)

Of course.

B (73:30)

Right. And so when you were talking about, like, Jesus, my Jesus, our refuge, you talked about having God come and see all of, like, even the ugliest parts of your life. Right?

A (73:40)

Yes.

B (73:40)

And there's a way in which, like, if we. If we don't ever look at it and we don't ever bring it to the Lord, there's still parts of our lives which have an orphan experience, which have never been fathered by him.

A (73:51)

Yes. And I know I continue to have those. Those parts. Yes, of course. But I also. I'm sure you do, too, know the experience of having that open up to the gaze of the Father and reconciling myself with those parts, and that makes me more loving and patient with everybody around me. Yeah. I like Song of Songs, of course. Song of Songs, chapter two in particular, where I already mentioned it, you know, you've got the beloved coming. Here he comes. And there's this beautiful progression where it says, he's standing behind the wall. And then I think it says, speaking at the window, peering in through the lattice. And I like that progression of, like, okay, solid wall and then solid screen, and then sort of then a screen that also is porous or something, you know, and then he says beautiful things. Yeah. And the beloved of the one speaking is turned away from him, and he says, show me your face. You know, I wish I could Remember it better. But to me, I've always thought that the growth in holiness is like this slow turning to let the beloved look at you and not wanting to. Right. Like burying my head back in the cleft of the rock. Because the beautiful words of the beloved are offensive to me, and I don't. And they're offensive maybe for different reasons, but. But maybe I don't believe them. Maybe I think you're flattering me. Maybe I think I'm talking to myself right now and this is all some weird delusion, you know? But I do think holiness is. That's maybe. What do I know? I'm not a. But a slow turning towards the loving gaze of the Father and being able to sit there and have him look at you.

B (75:38)

Yep.

A (75:39)

Yeah.

B (75:40)

Yeah. And what we find, right, I think that, like, in this area, is that we can experience him as a refuge in a place of rest. We can find refuge and rest in his love and in his mercy, even while we are still broken and perfect and even sinful. Because there is a lot of effort, I think, trying to find our refuge first. There's merit to trying to grow in holiness and to root sin out of our lives. Right. But there can be a sense of like, okay, I'm trying to find my refuge, my safety, my rest in leaving the sin behind. But actually we can. Even while still sinners, we can experience Jesus as a refuge in his mercy and his patience and his grace and his guidance. You know, that I do think. And I think it's something that comes out in Father Jacques Philippe's book. We need to actually learn how to come to him and find rest in him and be seen by him and loved by him while we are still sinners on the journey with all of our lives.

A (76:39)

Has this been a. I'm sure it's been a process for you. How has that been true in your life?

B (76:45)

I think probably, How would I say? In some ways it's a process. Maybe I'm just beginning again or anew, which is maybe why it's like, so kind of like on my heart, you know, and just. I would say this, like, I'm. Yeah. What do I think about that? I think for me, in my own spiritual life, there, I've obviously lived it in some ways, but I do think I'm in a place where, like, the journey is just beginning in a new way. And maybe this is. You know, I've been living. I've been in religious Life for over 15 years, and I think probably, like, there's so much of the initial part of religious life, which is really with your heart set on, rightly so, Christian perfection and holiness. And then as you kind of live it more, you get more and more in touch with, like, oh, this wasn't as easy as I thought. And things that I thought would be, like, far behind keep coming back again. And it's like, so you keep experiencing again and again your need for God's mercy in a deeper and deeper way, in a beautiful way also, particularly as a priest and somebody who walks with people, as a confessor, you get more and more in touch with God's mercy for people and wanting to be, like a merciful place for people. So. So I think I'm like, I'm setting up on the journey and becoming more and more convicted of the necessity of it to. I guess I'll say that, like, I'm on a journey going much, much deeper, much more deeper into my story, much more deeper into my heart and life. And I've obviously lived this to some degree, but I think there's. Just. Because I've experienced this deeper invitation, some of what I have lived feels a little. Feels a little bit little or like, lacking, but just this idea. Like, I guess part of this, like, recognizing there are parts of my life where even still, like, there's parts of my life where I have not been totally fathered by God. And so I have, like, some orphan parts of my heart.

A (79:01)

How do you detect them? How do you detect. Oh, this is an orphan part.

B (79:05)

What's that experience? Like, I've never honestly looked at it and brought it to God in prayer. I think it's just un. It's like a door that's kind of been closed.

A (79:19)

And then how do we encounter those? Like, what's the experience of encountering that orphan part? Is it. I mean, for me, it might be like I react inordinately to something or I feel shame about something or. But what do you think?

B (79:44)

I'm trying to think because there's parts of this which aren't necessarily for this platform.

A (79:52)

Sure.

B (79:53)

You know? You know what I mean? So I'm trying to, like.

A (79:55)

I guess I mean, more generally. Generally for those who are watching, like, I don't even. What does that mean, to encounter orphan parts? How do I. Because they know what you're talking about, but they don't know what you're talking about. So how do we help them?

B (80:03)

Yeah, and I think. Yeah, I think maybe to. Yeah, like, two. To pull from a couple of sources. One is. So I'm a chaplain. I've just become a chaplain to the group called Courage. Do you know what Courage is?

A (80:18)

Right.

B (80:20)

So it's a Catholic ministry towards those who experience same sex attraction. And I did an internship with them when I was in seminary and now I'm like a chaplain. And although it's not a 12 step group, it goes through some like the 12 steps, right? And the first one, and we use this kind of Christian book that has to do with the 12 steps, is just like, it really encourages, like, you gotta be really honest with yourself and you have to actually look at yourself and how you're doing and how you're not doing this acceptance of like, this for them, for those who are in addiction, it's like a powerlessness. But like, so for example, if I think there's a lot of people who say they're struggling with something like pornography and you know, they're kind of in this addiction cycle of fall into pornography, masturbation, go to confession, begin again, and then like, repeat, you know, and they're going to confession and they're very, being very honest about, like, okay, I'm gonna really try better. But at some point, like, you have to actually see, like, you know what? This isn't working, you know, and you have to have like a deeper, honest look at like, okay, why do I keep falling into this? Maybe I, like, I have to be really honest about, like, I can't have access to a personal computer in my room or I can't have a cell phone. Like these things. Actually, I can't have Instagram or TikTok. Like, they're gonna lead me to sin. And there is a place of like going deeper and deeper and deeper and kind of recognizing, like sometimes like we can stay on the surface. Like, no, okay, I'll just do better, I'll just do better. But you have to actually kind of get to this place of like, oh, actually this is a problem and it's been a problem for a long time. And I actually need like to be honest about that and to see it and not just to bring the sin to God on this level of like, we're gonna work it out, it's not that big of a deal, but like actually bringing to God, like, oh, this is like something that, like, I am actually powerless before and it's really beating me up and I need your help and maybe I need to like bring other people into it as well. Because I'm all, I'm like, I'm actually tech, like really with how deep the problem is. I'm all alone in it. And maybe I haven't even addressed it. Does that kind of experience make sense?

A (82:39)

Of course.

B (82:40)

Okay. Yeah.

A (82:42)

That's everyone's experience who isn't completely numbed out, isn't it?

B (82:46)

Sure, yeah, yeah.

A (82:47)

When you encounter things in yourself that you can't change.

B (82:50)

Yeah. Do you know this name? Deacon Keating? I'm blanking on his first name, Deacon Keating. He's kind of the. He's like kind of the man. And he's. He's a deacon who's very involved with Institute of Priestly Formation, ipf. Historically, he wrote a book for priests.

A (83:08)

Yes, I've heard great things about him.

B (83:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never met him in person. I've just read his books. But he wrote a book, really, it's for priests, but it's called Remain in Me. But he has a chapter in there on spiritual direction which I print out and give to all of my spiritual directees mostly just so they read this one line which says spiritual direction is essentially looking at what you don't want to look at and talking about what you don't want to talk about. And I think this is so important because we are self protective. Human beings are by nature, I think, self protective. And part of an expression of that is not really totally looking at our lives or stories like Head on or addressing some of our struggles with sin. Head On. And so there's just things we don't want to look at and we don't want to talk about. But what that ends up doing is that there are parts of our heart where we're. If we don't go there with God, like we are still alone there. And the Father wants to, like God wants to come into and to Father and to love and to guide us in all areas of our lives and our hearts. And so we just. There's. There is.

A (84:19)

And yeah, this interior freedom stuff we're talking about is not pop psychology. Like it's the point of the Christian life. You could imagine a scenario. I've shared this. But in the gospels where somebody commits suicide, this didn't happen. I'm just saying you could imagine it. And Christ comes along and like raises him from the dead.

B (84:37)

Yeah.

A (84:38)

And the guy's like, well, thanks a lot. Like, that's not what. Christ didn't just come to. To restore our physical well being. He came to heal our hearts, to liberate us.

B (84:48)

Yeah, yeah. And that He. Yeah, he wants, he wants all of us and he can handle all of us. And he wants to go to all parts of our Hearts and our lives and. Yeah, yeah. There's just parts of our lives which are still where Jesus is not our refuge. Where Jesus isn't welcome.

A (85:09)

Yeah, for sure. Before I forget, I have to tell you about my friend. He created. Let me just grab my computer.

B (85:15)

Go for it.

A (85:20)

He creates. So somebody. Here's why I'm bringing it up. It's like, we are demanding of the average fella. Let's just limit it to fellas for now who were exposed to porn at a young age. We're now demanding them a level of moral courage and purity that St. Anthony of the Desert didn't even claim to have. Right. He was apparently met by the Queen of Sheba. Appeared to hit, like, the demon appeared to him as the Queen of Sheba in a seductive way. You know, like. And then we're looking at these us who grew up being exposed to all sorts of filth.

B (85:55)

Yeah.

A (85:56)

And they're like, okay, but here's a phone. And just be like, anthony of Egypt. Are you kidding me? I can't. So this guy created this thing. I'm gonna find it here. I always forget if it's shift my phone or shift your phone. No. Well, maybe. Okay. Yeah. So he's got this thing called shiftyourphone.com. please go get it. Shiftyourphone.com. and then there's the other one called Escape. Is it. This is fantastic. All right, so somebody told me they've got a solution to things on to, like, distracting apps and porn. And I'm like, okay, no, you don't. Like, nobody has that. Everyone says they have that. Nobody has that. You've probably heard of Brick. Maybe you have an Opal. There's these different big companies that promise to get rid of distracting apps on the Internet from your phone. There's always a very simple workaround. So when I was told about this fellow who's a Catholic, I'm like, okay. Like, God bless him, but it won't work.

B (86:52)

Yeah.

A (86:52)

And like. Well, he's sure it does. I'm like, okay, well, he can meet me and we'll look at it. And so he comes here. Here's the thing. You download this thing. Shiftyourphone.com. by the way, I'm not getting paid to promote this guy. Not a cent. That's not why I'm talking about it. Just in case people are suspicious. And it just removes all distracting apps and the Internet from your phone, but it leaves things like your bank apps, Uber Delta, or whatever your airplane app is. Email. Right. And it's. And Then so you shift it from your computer and unshift it from your computer. So what I'll do on the weekends is I'll shift my phone, which gets rid of all distracting apps in the Internet, leave my computer here and go home. And so I have no Internet for a, for a weekend.

B (87:34)

Okay.

A (87:35)

And then I come here and I can unshift it. Am I making any sense? I don't know.

B (87:40)

Yeah, I'm just like, what we always look for in things like this is, is there any place in which it really comes down to your own where really like you hold the key or not? Because totally, because that's where.

A (87:57)

Okay, well, here's the next thing. So this began as an anti porn idea.

B (88:01)

Okay.

A (88:02)

So he's got a thing called Escape and it's about to launch. And basically what it does is you connect your phone to the computer and you choose this option. It's free, the Shift isn't. But this anti porn thing is when you shift it. Or Escape, it's called. Again, everyone should go to shiftyourphone.com if I'm not making any sense, it removes the possibility of porn on your phone forever. And there's no backsies. There's no way to.

B (88:28)

Like, how does that happen?

A (88:29)

I don't know, but I just interviewed him on my show and you should watch the episode. Okay, now look, there's a million ways to skin a cat. I know that, but he even showed me it works with third party apps. So if you're on Instagram and you type in, sort, you know, all sorts of depraved things, even the third party apps get censored now. Yeah, there's probably little things here and there that you, you can find and maybe you will find, but it's phenomenal. Sorry.

B (88:57)

I believe you.

A (88:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, but for me personally, it's less the porn thing, it's more the. I don't want to waste my life scrolling on YouTube, scrolling on social media, seeing what nastiest things somebody has said somewhere. And so with this, I go home and now it's like my children want my attention and I don't have something competing with that and I can give it to them.

B (89:20)

Yeah, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, like where I'm, like where I'm. I'm not, I'll just say, like a lot of these, these apps, et cetera, are helpful tools that set us up for success. We can't necessarily put all of our hope in them. I think that, I think this is why the like, like Courage is chosen to follow the AA model is that there really is something uniquely special about a certain space where you feel safe, where you can be honest, and where you're accompanied by other people. And that.

A (89:55)

What you're talking about is exactly right and clearly preferable to something like this. But what this is, is it kind of. It's almost like, should you get rid of all the alcohol in your home or go to aa? It's like, well, what if you did both?

B (90:10)

Correct.

A (90:10)

So get rid of all the alcohol in your home. That's a stupid idea. You got a hip flask. Get rid of that. Give it to me. Then you're in a place where you can do the deeper stuff. So I feel like what shift is, is that initial. Well, let's, to the furthest extent possible, get rid of the stuff that's killing you. But that's not enough. I agree with you. Then you got to do the inner work, right?

B (90:28)

And I think this is a beautiful expression of both. And because, like, some people will be like, no, those things don't work. Get rid of them. What you need is some sort of group where you're walking with people. And it's like, well, no, I think it is a both. And I think it is a both. And I think this is super helpful. And I think really, like, clear. Creating as much friction between you and sort of negative things as possible and as many doors as possible is very, very wise and very, very helpful at the same time. I do think that people are people, and if they want to get something, they figure out ways to get it, you know, so it's like. Like the addict in the truest sense is gonna go buy a new computer. You know what I mean? So I do think. But that's obviously, now we're like, the barrier of entry is getting higher and higher and higher. So it makes it harder and harder and harder, which is very helpful. So you can't put all of your hope into something like that 100%. But having something like that and a group are super helpful. My thing with a lot of this stuff is just like. And part of this is maybe the invitation event. Part of it connects to the conversation, is like, there's still. You're just not meant to journey in life alone. And even if there is, like, something that's difficult or sort of like addictive or sinful is like, it is really helpful. Even if it's just like a confessor, to have somebody who, again, so that you can. Even while you're still struggling, you can be like, loved and seen and accompanied and even fathered there. And I think that, yeah, having somebody else in the situation is really. It's practically helpful. But also, I think it's spiritually helpful.

A (92:22)

Thank you. For being a priest who hears people's confessions. I think that's just the most beautiful thing. Thank you. It's just. I wonder. I don't know, I wonder if sometimes you take for granted what a blessing you are to people who want to confess their sins.

B (92:35)

Yeah.

A (92:36)

I met a young woman at a big Steubenville conference, and I had just given a big talk on pornography. And she came up to me and clearly had a lot to say but didn't know how to say it. She eventually started crying and she talked about how she's been hooked on porn for years, you know, and it was so beautiful, so lovely and appropriately vulnerable. And. Yeah, I gave her a very affectionate side hug.

B (92:57)

Yeah, yeah.

A (92:58)

As is appropriate and things like that. And then told her to go to confession. And I said, then come tell me when you've done it. And she came to me the next day. I barely recognized her. Her whole countenance had changed. And she just talked about how compassionate and, like, awesome the priest was. And I just think, man, he'll get another crown in heaven. I think, like, priests who are kind to hurting people in the confessional, which in my experience, has been pretty much all of them. I've. You know, people talk about having negative experiences. Maybe I've had one, but maybe I needed a bit of a kick in the pants, if I'm honest with you.

B (93:30)

Yeah.

A (93:31)

So thank you.

B (93:32)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's. It's. It's. For me, really, like, we know. We know, like, the. The most. Like, objectively speaking, the most important thing that the priest does is offer the holy sacrifice of the Mass. Subjectively speaking, the thing that really kind of like, drove my vocation was to hear confessions. And so it is like, I've. And that's. I think it's good for, like, I have given. I've made some significant life changes and sacrifices so that I can be there to receive you in whatever state you're in, to give you an experience of. To give you objectively God's mercy and to love you there and to create a safe place for you to encounter the Lord there. So it's like. It is my greatest joy, and it is something I love to do, and it's just like. It's so beautiful because it can be so simple, but the effect is. Can be, like, literally eternal. Life changing, but also, like, here, now. Like, life changing.

A (94:30)

Yeah. I would think as a priest, it's sometimes helpful to be told you don't need to be interesting at Mass. Please don't actually just celebrate the Holy Mass. That's all we need from you. There must be a relief. Like, oh, I can do that.

B (94:41)

Yeah.

A (94:41)

And I think something similar in confession. Like, that would be advice I would give to a seminarian who might ask me. The advice is like, same thing. Like, I don't need you to be profound. I don't need you to have any wisdom. I just need you to hear me and to just absolve me. Like, that'll do. Yeah. That's kind of nice. Takes the pressure off.

B (94:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know if the first one is totally true. For the congregation in some experiences. Meaning you don't have to be interesting at Mass. Right. Like there. Like you don't have homily, you mean? Yeah. There is something in which, like, we talk about the sacraments, the ex opera operato versus exoperae operantis, like that which just happens in a sacrifice, like in the Mass. Objectively speaking, the second refers to the subjective experience. Good preaching is helpful.

A (95:33)

Yes, you're right. That's right.

B (95:36)

If people are going to Mass, but they're not super interested, actually some sort of something interesting and something even humorous can be really helpful for capturing them, making them feel safe and bringing them in.

A (95:48)

Great point.

B (95:48)

Because. Because that is something that gets thrown out about there. And it's like, well, if you were a priest and you went and you just did everything without any humanity and very, very cold, would Mass happen? Would people receive Communion? 100%. Is there space for more? I think so. You know, for an even richer, fuller experience of God and his church and his Word and his sacrament. There is something that being. There's a reason we have homiletics class and it's not.

A (96:19)

Yeah. And there's a reason that you give a homily and don't just read St. Anthony of Padua's homilies.

B (96:23)

Yeah.

A (96:23)

Because you're talking to me now in this culture at this time.

B (96:27)

Right. And there's just like, there's people who are bought in and like, here, give me something rich and full and kind of direct right now. There's people who aren't for whom. Actually, humor is, like, really helpful for bringing them in so that they can receive the substantial thing within. The sacrament of confession is like, there's a lot. It's a little Bit and again, because it's like, okay, just. Just give. Just give me, you know, give me absolution and get me going. That's not what you said. But there is some of that out there. And it's like, sometimes that is true, and that's what's necessary. When I'm going to confession, I go to the same guys. And really I'm like, I'm looking to. I'm not looking for any counsel. And a lot of us who are hearing confessions of priests don't do it. There are people who, like, it is helpful to receive them and offering some encouraging words and things like that. So I don't think it has to be. It definitely doesn't have to be profound. Neither of them have to be profound, but, like, sincere. And I think since, yeah, sincere of, like a sincere heart of mercy for these people is going to be helpful for them experiencing God's mercy. Even though if you're kind of not giving them much absolution's still gonna happen. Same for Mass. Like sincerity, a sincere concern, speaking to your flock, meeting them where they're at. And it's just if people think. Experience you as being sincere and invested in them, they're not gonna care if you're not that. If your homilies aren't that good and you're not that wise or you can't sing or whatever. You know, people actually. Is the bar for somebody loving you and being grateful for you as a priest is actually pretty low. People are very generous and they're very, very kind and grateful to. To us if we're. If we're praying and we're sincere, you know, totally.

A (98:18)

Have you had many people come to you and say, like, it's been 20, 30, 40 years since my confession or.

B (98:24)

Yeah, you get that.

A (98:25)

That must be wonderful. Like, that might be an example where you want to give a little bit more of encouragement.

B (98:30)

Yeah, yeah. And it's all. Yeah, yeah, 100%. 100%. But we like. So what's somewhat of a gift for so CFRs like SOMA, CFR, Franciscan Friar, the Renewal. Something that's very kind of unique about us is we don't run parishes. So I'm not consistently in that confession window that most people have. We generally have places where we have some more space retreats, we have events, people coming to the friary. So I don't have 45 minutes to get through with 30 people. So we actually. We tend to have a lot more space for being with people and accompanying them and hearing them and things like that. But if it's been a person 50 years, if it's been a person who, you know, has fallen into mortal sin, you know, in the last week when their last confession was like, The angels rejoice for both. Yeah, yeah.

A (99:31)

How are vocations with the friars of the renewal and what does that say more generally about the day and age in which we live, the hunger people have, Whatever.

B (99:42)

Yeah. I think our experience is pretty common with overall the universal experience of religious orders and seminaries for us. I'll just speak about us, though. Like, interest is very, very high and has consistently been high. Whether or not it's at an all time high, I don't know, but it's very high. And so we get assumably hundreds of people of young men who reach out with an initial inquiry. At that point there's like a conversation, there's like a little bit of like a questionnaire, there's like a first round of vetting before we would invite somebody for what we call like a come and see, like a discernment retreat. And then there's like, you know, that's going to happen a couple of times and we're going to kind of get to know guys where they're at. The thing is, and this is kind of what I was touching on is like the interest and the sincerity are there. The question, I think for most of us, it's, for most guys across the board is the capacity question. Do they have the human and spiritual foundation necessary to live this life in a way which is fruitful and faithful and even joyful for their whole lives? And that's the thing that is harder and harder to find.

A (101:08)

Yeah. Because I mean, how many years are you before you're ordained in the CFRs?

B (101:12)

So we. From what point?

A (101:15)

From when you enter.

B (101:16)

From when you enter. Okay. So from when you enter the first final. We don't start seminary until after final vows. So the first opportunity for final vows is going to be six years and then it's going to be four to eight years of studies, depending on what academic background you had before you joined us.

A (101:32)

So it could be eight or more years before you ordained a priest.

B (101:37)

Right now it's pretty close. Nine or ten is going to be the minimum.

A (101:42)

Okay. So I guess. So then my question is how formed do you need somebody who's about to undergo nine years of formation? You know, like, what is it you're looking for that you're like, okay, this person has what we can work with.

B (101:58)

Yeah, there's a, there's a priest Who's a, like a psychologist who had this line that when you. When you enter into like your vocation or religious life, he's talking about you want, like he said, everybody has baggage, but you want to have it down to a carry on.

A (102:15)

Love it.

B (102:15)

And I think that communicates it well.

A (102:17)

Love that so, so much.

B (102:19)

Because it's not. We're not what we usually like. We're not like a therapeutic community. And so. So like we're. We're like. There are certain things in the area of.

A (102:33)

That's good advice for marriage too, by the way. Everyone's got baggage. We want to look to a carry on.

B (102:36)

Right, right. And so that's the thing. It's like if there are some major things. The on ramp to entering with us has gotten longer and longer at the service of getting us down to a carry on. So if guys need some more extensive formation, they need some more extensive counseling, whatever it is, we're going to ask them to do that before entering. Because our life has like, significant stresses built into it which may not be helpful for some of the healing that needs to happen. And so that's the idea. It's like you got to get them down to a place where the, if you will, the intensity and the pressures of this life are formative and transformative as opposed to something that like breaks them down and deteriorates them. And that's going to be kind of like uniquely discerned for each man.

A (103:26)

What is this year? I've heard about. I forget the name of it.

B (103:28)

Prabhaduda.

A (103:29)

Thank you. What is that year? Was this John Paul II's sort of idea or where did it come from? Maybe, I don't know, but I can.

B (103:38)

Just talk about the current reality. I don't know the whole history. And so essentially it's a year of formation. I think it's really supposed to be spiritual formation for diocesan seminarians before they start academic studies.

A (103:54)

Okay, all right, spiritual formation. What about human formation?

B (103:57)

Human and spiritual? Yeah, yeah. I would say it's very much both, but I'll say very much human and spiritual. I think it's intentionally not supposed to be academic and there's probably limited past. There's like four pillars of formation. Human, spiritual, academic, intellectual, and then pastoral. So I think it's heavy on the human and spiritual. And I don't think it's a brand new concept, but it's now that it's mandatory, I believe is new.

A (104:28)

And do you all do that too?

B (104:30)

We do. We have. Essentially we've already done it. So our novitiate in formation, postulancy, we've done it times in our situation six, essentially, before entering seminary.

A (104:44)

Yeah. I mean, do you find that people. Obviously, any man who's interested in joining the friars or the sisters are still happening. Right, Yep. Sorry.

B (104:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (104:55)

Or any woman who's joining the sisters understands what they're getting themselves into. They're obviously attracted to it. So I would imagine many of them are somewhat enthusiastic about leaving the kind of Internet space behind. But what is that experience like for people who just join?

B (105:09)

For a friar or for a postulant or for a Dawson guy?

A (105:12)

No, for y'. All.

B (105:13)

Okay.

A (105:13)

Yeah. Because they're more. I understand. So that year probably may require seminarians for diocesan. For the diocese to maybe shed some of that as well. But y' all do it more hardcore.

B (105:30)

We do it more hardcore. Yeah. So certainly in propa duk spaces, they are almost. It's gonna be unique to different seminaries. I think they all have some sort of restrictions on their access to a cell phone, at least during the week, but I think for the whole time. So that is, like, something they're doing for us. I can. For me. So I entered in 2009, which is somewhat unique because I never had a smartphone, and so I can't totally 100% speak into the current guy's experience. Most of us, though, all of the things that feel hardcore or feel like a lot are exciting for a young man. It feels fun. It feels good to leave that stuff behind. It feels great to go into a place where you can't call anybody, you don't have any money, you're sleeping on, like, a matt on the ground, you're wearing sandals when it's winter. All of that stuff at the very beginning, it's very romantic. So I. And I. So I think probably if it is hard or whatever, the fun of it, the romance of it, the like, oh, I'm really doing it probably helps quite a bit.

A (106:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of gives you the boost of what the. Whatever that you need. And then you all don't take. Typically men over a certain age. Correct.

B (106:50)

Yeah, correct.

A (106:51)

That's a great idea.

B (106:52)

Yeah.

A (106:53)

As someone who's 42, I don't know if I could just change my life entirely at this point. Do you feel that as well?

B (107:01)

Oh, 100%.

A (107:02)

You kind of solidify a little.

B (107:04)

Yeah, yeah.

A (107:04)

Let's bend in the joints.

B (107:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And unfortunately, I'm a lot less, if you will, in a good way. Like, maybe easy to work with or to form in new experiences. Like my. My culture's pretty established. You know, my routines are pretty established, things like that. And that's what it comes down to is with all the formation stuff and the discernment of a guy entering, it's setting him up for success. And the older you get, you know, the concrete, if you will, gets more and more hardened and beginning a radically new formation with. With some pretty significant expectations that might be different than what You've lived for 38 years. It just gets harder and harder. And so we just. And maybe you can do it for three years, but we don't want you to do it for four or five years knowing it's probably not going to work out. And you just gave four or five years of your life and you entered at 38 and now you're 43 and you're kind of starting from scratch.

A (108:11)

Well, and not to mention what it takes from the friars, as you said, you're not a therapeutic center. You don't exist to help people get their stuff together.

B (108:20)

Yeah, yeah.

A (108:21)

If it does as a consequence, then praise be the Lord.

B (108:24)

But we're there to help you. I think probably you can enter postulancy with two carry ons, but through postulancy. Novitiate.

A (108:33)

Yeah, that's the. So is it postulancy, then novitiate?

B (108:35)

So for us, the first thing is postulancy, which is 10. 10 months. Novitiate is one year. Okay, so those two. And then you would make your first vows. Those two years. We're probably trying to get it down from two carry ons to one. And then. You know what I mean? And then what happens is you. So there is. There is a good amount of time and resources put into actually serving the guy, but at the same time, understanding that you're going to be living in very close proximity with a bunch of people all the time. You're not gonna be just going golfing when you wanna be golfing. You're gonna be waking up early, staying up late, working. So that's what I'm saying. It's like not a therapeutic community is. It's like there's a whole lot of stresses that you're gonna be entering into that just are super real. And so we're gonna make other resources available, but it's not gonna be the easiest space. And then what happens is you make vows and maybe you're allowed to bring on a carry on, maybe even a backpack into vows. But the hard part is that you make final vows and then five more years later, and then all Of a sudden you found you've got, like. You thought you had it down to a carry on, but now you've got, like, two checked bags that you didn't. You have to go and revisit and work on kind of. That's kind of life.

A (109:48)

I had the perception, and it may not be correct. I had the perception maybe, you know, 20 years ago that religious orders were, like, begging people to join them. The perception I have today, at least for the religious orders that. That I interact with and respect a great deal, is that y' all turn away a lot of people. Was there something that religious orders learn? Do you think that perception is right? Maybe I just had that perception because I was a young single guy who was open.

B (110:14)

Yeah, Yeah. I think you probably just got informed to the reality that was. Yeah. And at some point we might have to. Is. So there's always been a certain external encouragement and push to promote vocations.

A (110:33)

Right.

B (110:33)

And so you see that, and there is. There is a sense of like, we're trying to look for vocations, things like that. Even some. Yeah, I think, actually, you're probably right. Like, in some spaces, particularly really struggling spaces, like, by spaces, I mean orders. It might even have the feel of, like, recruitment. Yeah.

A (110:48)

By the way, I never got that from the CFRs. I went and lived with the CFRs, and if anything, they were like. I don't know.

B (110:52)

Know. Yeah, yeah. And we've tried. We've gotten like. There's like a. Like a. There's like a lot of guys early on, like, reached out, including myself, and made, like, phone calls and, like, sent letters and never got responses.

A (111:05)

Yeah.

B (111:05)

And there was a part of that which is framed as, like, look, they're not desperate. You gotta want it. But there's also a part of, like. Well, maybe that's just like, a little.

A (111:12)

Bit disrespectful or disorganized.

B (111:15)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Disorganized is not a Franciscan virtue or any virtue, even though sometimes we pretend it is. But I think what it. Like, and this is where it's so hard, is actually. I think it's really hard because it's really hard to put into words how painful and hurtful it is for a man or woman to be pursuing religious life or priesthood and to be told no.

A (111:41)

Especially if they've been with you for a few years, too. Right?

B (111:44)

Correct. But, yes, I think that can be hard. I think it actually is probably some of the conversations and the reasons why somebody might not be permitted entry and the form those takes are just. They're really, like, heartbreaking for a lot of people and crushing. And I don't know the remedy, because the thing is, if you've been with us for five years, at least we've gotten to know you and to journey with you. But what happens a lot of times is, like, there's certain things that come up of your history or your story that you're now presenting with this women's religious order that you think is the most beautiful thing, and you want to give your heart as a bride of Christ. And then they have a conversation with you and they say, you're not going to be a good. This isn't going to be a good fit. That is really, really hard. And we come in. So many people come in with the idea of, like, if I want to do this and I feel the draw and the desire, of course they're going to say yes. And the idea of getting no is totally unheard of. And then it happens. And sometimes it has to do with some really difficult life experiences and things like that. And it's just like. Like, it's really. Yeah.

A (113:09)

I could see people feeling betrayed. I came here, I laid it all out. I feel I'm being called to this. And so you're rejecting me when I've been vulnerable with you in good faith. Oh, I could see that going poorly. Right. And I understand why you have to do it, but I can see how it would be. Could be received really negatively.

B (113:30)

And they're trying. And so, like, they're subject to experience from. From their. Their point of view is I've just been told essentially that I'm too broken to give my life to Jesus. And that's not what's happening, and that's not what's being said. But that is, like, the experience, and that is heartbreaking. And that's really hard. Why these things happen. Right. Like, what's really happening is that you're ultimately being like. So there's a difficulty if the young person has made sort of being chosen and loved and even, like, if you will, wedded to God, like, being chosen and sort of like, perfect, in total union with God is synonymous with religious life. And we forget that God actually chooses the thing that makes us chosen. Beloved by God is both our baptism and his death on the cross for us. Right. And we can kind of put all of this onto religious life. And so it's like, okay, what we're saying is this path isn't gonna be helpful for you on a human level, and it's not gonna be helpful for you in your relationship with Jesus and that he's trying to love you and to choose you and to betroth you to himself through a different means. And that you may. What would happen is if you lived this life probably for five years or for 10 years is you would hate it, and you would find it crushing, and it would break you, and it would take you 10 years to be, like, really deeply hurt. Because the stresses of this life for you and your situation aren't actually going to be fruitful. They're going to actually be really hurtful and problematic. And we have the experience of a lot of centuries of discerning this with people and can kind of help get out ahead of this. But it's really hard to have that conversation. We don't necessarily have the resources to walk with everybody for three or four years who we have to say no to. So it's just, like. It's hard.

A (115:39)

Is there any. Thank you. Are there any developments with the Franciscans that you want to talk about? I heard rumor that perhaps you were establishing some. Some hermitages or something like this. I don't know all of.

B (115:51)

Yeah. So, like. So what's going on with us? We're coming up to the, you know, the 800 year of the anniversary of St. Francis. We're gonna try and do something for that.

A (115:59)

800 years.

B (116:00)

Yeah.

A (116:01)

Wow.

B (116:01)

Yeah. Since the death of the life saint or death of St. Francis right now. Like, what's. What's new with us is. So the hermitage thing that you're calling to mind is that we have a practice of once a month, each friar makes a hermitage, which is essentially 48 hours of personal, individual retreat. So you go away and we have a retreat center that's for us that has hermitages, which is kind of like a little cabin with a chapel where guys go and pray. And so we're continuing to grow that and to build it. But that's, like, beautiful. That's for our use.

A (116:40)

Yeah. I'm gonna let it come.

B (116:41)

Yeah.

A (116:41)

That's fun.

B (116:42)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're on the fence, you know. You're on the fence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. You know, some people. So, you know, I mean, so there. There's.

A (116:52)

Well, it's beautiful. I had a beautiful priest who I love very much. His name is Father Ken Barker. He founded a community in Australia called the Missionaries of God's Love and Every. And he's the founder. And every month he'll look at his calendar, and he'll choose two days.

B (117:08)

Yeah.

A (117:08)

Because it doesn't sound overwhelming when you do that at the start of every month. It sounds really overwhelming when you're in the middle of a month and you're looking for two days.

B (117:15)

Yeah.

A (117:15)

But I just think that's really beautiful.

B (117:17)

Yeah.

A (117:17)

I need to do something like that. I think.

B (117:19)

Yeah. I have a friend because I kind of laid. I kind of wrote a book that kind of helped, like, this was years ago. Helped propose sort of like, some of what our practices could look like for lay people. And I was just out in Nebraska with a very good friend of mine, and he, like, what it looks. He's a father with. I believe they have six or seven kids. I think they have six kids. I was just with them. I could count, but I'm not. It would be. Anyway. Anyway, so what? Like, once a month, he takes an afternoon or he takes a morning and he goes to where there's a chapel, and he, like. He gets two or three hours of prayer. He's with. He's in front of the Blessed Sacrament. He, like, reviews his month. He looks forward to the next month. His wife kind of has the kids and the family. So I think, like, the idea of having once a month, a little bit more time set aside for prayer, I think it actually can work and apply for laypeople as well. And I think it's like. I think it would be a good thing to do.

A (118:11)

I think last time we were on, weren't we, like, hammering out some ideas for a new third order of Franciscans?

B (118:17)

Do you remember any other details of that? Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

A (118:22)

Well, I just think it's. It'd be really beautiful to have something associated with the fries of the noir. Cause you guys are so loved, eh? There's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. People really respect you.

B (118:33)

Yeah.

A (118:34)

And you personally, but also your religious order. It's just every friar of the renewal I've met, I've just been so impressed by. And they're all different and zany and beautiful.

B (118:45)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (118:46)

But really terrific. I feel the same way about the Sisters of Life and.

B (118:51)

Yeah.

A (118:52)

Every really religious order, maybe that begun or flourished under the pontificate of John Paul II or after. I'm just so happy. And I know I don't see the inner workings, just like you don't see the inner workings of my marriage and family. So it might be a superficial thing, but like we were saying earlier, like, when you come to the Lord, you experience your life becoming better. One of the things you start experiencing is joy.

B (119:14)

Yep.

A (119:14)

And that's what I see when I meet with talk of the friars, that's my personal experience. It's just there's a joy and a. Yeah, joy.

B (119:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I love being a cfr and I love this order and really, like, a huge part of my work and my desire, even though I might be doing it, it really is at the service of, like, there's such this beautiful work happening, I think, by God in this order. And I want to, like, give my life to help, to grow it and to share it. And I mean, this. Like, I was drawn to sort of the intensity and the poverty of my order. The gift I didn't expect. That has been a profound gift at the level of the most profound has actually been the fraternity and, like, what a gift it is to every day be surrounded by people who are, like, praying and sacrificing and being generous. Like, it's easier to have a joyful and hope filled hermeneutic of the world when you're surrounded by these good men, sinful men, nonetheless, but good men, sincere men, really seeking the Lord and to love the poor and to love the church and to love the brothers. Like, it's a huge. It's a huge gift. So I love it. I love the order. I love what God's doing. And there's only 140 of us. Ish. So there's not a lot of us, you know, so we're trying our best and we're out there, but I say that because we're, like, kind of exploring a third order. But I don't know that we'll have to. We're just still testing and seeing if we have the infrastructure to. Really.

A (120:58)

Yeah, if you're gonna do it.

B (121:00)

Yeah. Do another thing.

A (121:01)

Yeah, yeah. All right, so we have a question from producer Maria, who popped her head in earlier and said she wants to know, when praying the rosary, you know, you think to yourself, am I supposed to be thinking of the words of the Hail Mary or am I supposed to be thinking of the mystery? Because I actually cannot do both. Have you got that question before? And what's the answer?

B (121:21)

Yeah, yeah. The. What's making us sort of, like, praying the rosary is we have the intention, I would say, of kind of giving our minds and hearts to one of three things or a collection of three things. The one to whom we are praying. Right. The words that we are praying, the prayers themselves or the mystery that we are, like, meditating upon. And so I think. So, for example, if a mother had gone through something, and there's, like, you Just lost somebody. And you're praying the rosary and you can't think about anything, but you're, like, surrendering your life to God through the praying of the. Like, the rosary. You're not thinking about the words, you're not meditating on the mysteries, but you're, like, making an offering of your heart to the Lord.

A (122:02)

Like.

B (122:02)

Like, that's 100% like a faithful praying of the rosary. If you're paying attention to the words. Beautiful. But the reality is this is like, it. Like, I think oftentimes the words become a little bit of, like, the soft backdrop at the service of staying before the Lord and then meditating on the mysteries. So I think it's. If you. Yeah, this is just like a good principle. Like, if you can't do something, there's probably. You're probably doing okay. You know what I mean? It's like you can't be asked to do something that you can't. So if your mind can't think and focus on two things at once, you're probably not being asked to focus on two things at once. But we do want to try and pay attention to at least the one we're praying to, the words we're saying or the mystery. Yeah.

A (122:45)

Okay. Bill says, with all the good that you and others do via things like ascension and rosary, in a year, do you experience spiritual warfare? If so, what does that typically look like? And how do you fight back?

B (122:58)

How long do you want these answers?

A (123:00)

Well, let's see. How many do we have? We have 20 questions.

B (123:02)

Okay. So I don't view the world through the paradigm of spiritual warfare. Love it. So I experience normal human life and temptation and struggle, and I don't know if it's increased by anything I'm doing or not.

A (123:20)

Love it.

B (123:20)

Yeah.

A (123:21)

Okay. How can modern lay Catholics, asks Liz Anderson, living in the west, one of the wealthiest places and times, practically live out Jesus? Hard teachings related to the poor, money, etc. Sometimes I feel like our only hope for heaven is to give everything we have to the poor.

B (123:38)

That's not true. The second part, that the only hope you have is to give your money to the poor. It's how do I want to. The answer is a little bit more complex and complicated. I don't. I'm just gonna. I wrote a book, Habits for Holiness, and it has a chapter which addresses this in a little bit more detail. I would just. The principle I would put out before us here is like the principle of contentment. Can you sort of discern what you actually need? Say okay, this is what we need. And then anything above that, be generous with it towards the poor. And there is a place for objectively recognizing. Okay. For my human life, here's actually what we need. Here's what's healthy. That can include money for something like vacations, which are a really great human experience, particularly for family life. Okay, what's our budget? What do we need? And anything above that, we're gonna be generous with. So, for example, it's like, we have a kitchen. It works. We're happy with it. We don't need to be remodeling the house constantly. That money would be very well suited towards those who don't have things like that. That's my most basic answer. You don't have to give everything up. Can. Can you practice sort of discerning what you actually need and then be generous with what's above that? Okay, I'm gonna.

A (124:56)

This might be misunderstood, but in a way that the options. Just give everything up is maybe a cop out, because it's kind of a lot more difficult to. To live. What. What you're just saying, let's discern. And then what if we didn't get this new thing? We did that. Like, how many people are doing that? Am I doing that? I don't know if I'm doing. Doing that. Yeah, that's good.

B (125:13)

Yeah.

A (125:15)

Because I'm. Well, maybe it's more my personality. I tend to be all or nothing, so I find it more difficult to be thoughtful about things and prudent about things.

B (125:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And it's super clear. Meaning there's a lot more clarity if it's all or nothing. But this discernment is a little bit messier.

A (125:33)

Could Father Mark beat Matt Frad in a basketball game?

B (125:36)

Yeah.

A (125:37)

Yes. Next question. Clis Bodell says, how, if at all, does being a public figure, particularly in the area of digital media consumed on phones, make living your vocation as a Franciscan of the friar more or less difficult. Franciscan of the renewal.

B (125:52)

Sorry. More or less difficult. Yeah. It almost has no effect, except that I have to spend time allocated towards thinking about things the same. But. Right. Like the Rosary podcast, it's filmed by myself in a room in the friary. My ascension video is assumed by myself, film by myself in a room in the friary. Like, there's. The counterpoint is that I experience very much my life and what's happening right now as, like, an experience of, like, the prodigal son returning home, and the father throws him this, like, banquet is a lot of the Affirmation, encouragement I get from people is like me being there and being loved by people at the sort of banquet my father threw for me. And so I actually experience it very deeply as an expression of the Father's love for me. So it is actually kind of encouraging in my. For myself as a disciple and son.

A (126:42)

Hunter says. What's something you learned while recording Rosary in a year?

B (126:48)

It's way more work to record a podcast like that than I ever expected.

A (126:53)

How did you do it?

B (126:54)

Practically still doing it.

A (126:56)

Oh, right. But presumably not just like doing one a day. You're probably batch recording them.

B (127:01)

Yeah, but I like, I was surprised by how little batch recording I could do. The my. I found my ceiling to be about four or five episodes a day.

A (127:09)

Oh, that sounds about right.

B (127:11)

Which, like, it's kind of like I'm pretty. Pretty spent after that and I still haven't gotten through the whole week, you know. Yeah, so it was a lot. And it took, you know, I started months before it actually came out.

A (127:22)

Was there a point where you were afraid that you wouldn't be able to continue?

B (127:26)

No, no, no. Because I was in, you know, but there was, there was. I thought I might be done early in the year and scheduled stuff, for example, in like a Lent.

A (127:37)

Oh, so. Yeah.

B (127:37)

Yeah.

A (127:37)

So you're still recording them now in November?

B (127:40)

Yeah.

A (127:41)

Good on you.

B (127:42)

Yeah, yeah. I'm about a month ahead, but I'm coming in for atlanting. But it's been a lot, but. Okay, so that wasn't really what he was looking for. What have I learned? A few things that have stood out. Let me think about it. 1. Gosh, there's a lot of things I don't know. I'll just say for now. I've really enjoyed the experience I had with praying for art. There's a section of it where we are looking at a sacred art image that is about one of the mysteries. And I found actually learning about that and praying with that and speaking about that, a huge. So a huge source of grace. So a huge new kind of way of praying and place way to find like nourishment for prayer came through that.

A (128:37)

Yeah. What about the history of the rosary.

B (128:41)

Or anything like that?

A (128:41)

Did you know a lot about that prayer?

B (128:43)

No, I had to do a study of it and I kind of like did a deep dive. I think I was deeply, profoundly moved by how it's, of course, the masses, the prayer par excellence. But as far as, like, it's just like a perfect way of praying, both humanly speaking and spiritually speaking, which is the fruit of, like, really decades of tweaks and fine tuning and even like, we kind of, when we were talking about it, like, humanly, how it brings us to a place of, like, a greater calm and stillness just by. If we actually prayerfully say the rosary, like, it's naturally so helpful. But I did a bit of a dive on the history and then. Yeah, but I did know a little bit about that already.

A (129:29)

This person says, my son is in middle school and has a desire to discern religious life in the future. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can support him right now?

B (129:38)

Like, good, good men. Men make good religious, make good priests make good husbands. And so really just continuing to form him and to protect him as a man and developing as a man, teaching him how to pray, talking to him, teaching him how to, like, ask questions, to share his heart, to express his experiences, all of that is super helpful. Protect him in a healthy way. And of course, like, some introduction to religious here or there, I think is also. But primarily it's just about really forming a good man right now.

A (130:14)

Liz says, thank you, Father Mark Mary, for the rosary in the year. My husband is not a Catholic, but he's been doing it with me and will sometimes pray the rosary on his own.

B (130:21)

Nice.

A (130:21)

How many emails or messages have you gotten like that from people who aren't.

B (130:25)

Yeah, a handful. A good amount?

A (130:26)

Yeah.

B (130:27)

More than a handful, I guess.

A (130:30)

Good. Philip Z. Says, doing public media activity to get any support from other not directly engaged friars, diocese and priests and bishops. Any encouragement. I don't know what that means. You encounter priests who are glad for the work that you're doing.

B (130:45)

Yeah, you get a lot of feedback that's positive. Folks who use it for, like, their youth ministry or in their Catholic schools, things like that. But we don't really, if that was part of the question, is, like, I don't have, like, a ghost writer behind the scenes who's like a friar who's, like, helping me produce content or anything like that. I'm kind of on my own with it.

A (131:08)

Sarah Sopko says, not entirely sure what the interview will pertain. I did ask people to ask these questions. They haven't watched this, just to those who are watching. But I'd love to know what has been the biggest challenge in recent years, being present in social media or the public eye.

B (131:26)

Yeah, I think for me, like, the big thing that I'm really kind of hoping to step into in a different way next year is for, like, eight years, I've Been doing media stuff, been putting out, like, 20, 25. I'll have put out, like, nine talks a week, written a couple of books. I kind of want to take some space away from that, just at the service of a greater sort of, like, interior stillness, at the service of a greater, like, intimacy with the Lord. And so that the cost for me isn't have so much to do with the social media as much to the amount of talks given. And so to kind of create some space to kind of be renewed in the Lord and then some rest in the Lord is kind of what I'm moving towards.

A (132:07)

Samantha says, which mystery of the rosary is your favorite to meditate upon and why? And then which mystery do you find most challenging and why?

B (132:20)

I find the most immediately accessible, probably the Sorrowful Mysteries. Yeah. You know, and I think that's probably pretty human. And I think on the flip side, which I think is interesting, is that some of the less accessible would be the glorious, because it's a little bit more of, okay, like, how do I understand what the Lord's Ascension means for me in a way which is concrete and accessible? So I think that with the Transfiguration.

A (132:45)

Have you found a particular rosary meditation book or something that you've used or have used, do use that's been helpful? This is not a soft sell for my books.

B (132:52)

No, I. I use the Gospels.

A (132:58)

Yeah.

B (132:58)

Yeah.

A (133:00)

I just picked up a little beautiful book by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, which has beautiful mysteries. It's called Salve Regina. I found that very helpful. Yeah, I find it helpful sometimes just to go back to the Gospels and to do a real lectio on each of them so that you have more fuel to burn, as it were.

B (133:16)

Yep.

A (133:17)

Of course, in your mysteries, I also have been reading the Cantina Aurea. I think that's how you pronounce it, Aquinas's commentary on the Gospels, using just the Meditations of the Fathers, because there's a lot there, too.

B (133:29)

Yeah. And I do think, actually meditation on the Rosary on the Mysteries presupposes lectio divina with the Gospels.

A (133:35)

That's good. Yeah. Why is your habit gray?

B (133:39)

So I'm a Franciscan friar of the Renewal. Our roots. We had eight founders in 1987, and they were all capuchins. And the capuchin habit is brown. Ours is gray, in part because we are a different order. So it's somewhat practical in part, maybe is because if you look at, like, Francis habit, it would have been more grayish. But really it's because we want to Be like capuchins, but we're not capuchins, so we're gray instead of brown.

A (134:07)

Have you found. Has there been any animosity between the capuchins and your. Even on the. On the down low?

B (134:12)

No. Not in. Not now. Not at all. When we meet each other, it's very much like, oh, you. You're like me. You're like. We're like the same. Probably when the break happened, you know, in 80, 87, probably there was some more animosity with those folks. But those of us who are in the second generation, if you will. Yeah.

A (134:31)

I wonder if it's like, how Benedict's hope in allowing the Latin mass when he did was that it would influence the Novus order. Right. And I wonder if y' all did that to the capuchins, because whenever I meet the capuchins today, they seem hardcore. They're wearing the habit. It's not like back in the 90s when they were, like, wearing slacks and saying, call me, Jeff.

B (134:50)

Yeah. I think the religious life in the United States has actually gone through a significant renewal in the last 30 years.

A (134:58)

Yeah.

B (135:00)

From my understanding. I'm not like a historian. I've heard other people say this. I do think that. That our order was helpful in that in some ways, while also the recipient of it in others. So. But I think orders in themselves, across the board are gonna become more deeply living their charisms and their identities real quick.

A (135:21)

FrancisCanFryers.com Is that your website?

B (135:23)

Yeah.

A (135:24)

So if someone. I know, we've been talking about vocations and declining people, but if someone wanted to get declined, how would they do that? Well, I'm just joking.

B (135:34)

If somebody feels God might be calling them to this life. FrancisCanFriors.com, probably vocations. I don't know exactly if that's. Is that.

A (135:44)

I'll tell you. Vocations. Yep.

B (135:48)

There you go.

A (135:50)

Well, at least. No, that's just about Francis of Assisi. Doesn't do anything, but you click vocations. Oh. And then you go under vocations, and there's a bunch of different things you can choose.

B (135:59)

Yeah, we're working on getting that. That a little bit more clear. Yeah.

A (136:02)

Good stuff. How's New York these days?

B (136:06)

I don't know New York being any different. I mean, New York is a great place for what we do.

A (136:10)

Yeah.

B (136:10)

Yeah.

A (136:11)

Take care of the poor.

B (136:13)

Yeah. And I mean, there's like, 9 million people in a small area, so if you want to stay busy as a priest, there's plenty to do.

A (136:19)

Yeah. Good stuff. I love it. CJ Sharp says, has it been easier to detach from worldly things being in the setting that you're in? Do you feel like detachment would be harder if you were in a different scenario? Suggestions on. And then he wants to know suggestions on detachment for those of us who live the family life. Love your work. God bless. From Steubenville.

B (136:44)

What's the. Okay, my state of life. I think so. Certainly our. My state of life is extremely helpful for detachment from worldly things, insofar as that I'm with a group who's doing it and expected to do it and all that sort of stuff for family life. Discernment, communication. I think the starting point. The starting point. It's annoying, but it's true, is your relationship with the media and the phone. I think that's the number one way, like the wealth or luxury that people should be discerning. And then again, just a discernment. Especially like when you're doing stuff like, do I want this? Do I need it? Is there a better way to use. Spend it creating certain. Like, giving yourself, like, a budget each month of how much you're going to give away. Things like that. Some of that stuff's helpful.

A (137:30)

What's your favorite book on Saint Francis of Assisi?

B (137:32)

My favorite book. It is the. It's funny. It's this little green book that no one's ever heard of, and I think it's out of print. I think the author is, like, gracian, and I think it's called, like, I Know Christ.

A (137:45)

We. Oh, he's like, blue and green.

B (137:50)

It's just.

A (137:51)

I think I.

B (137:52)

It's not a beautiful cover. I think I know what it is. Back in the day. I know Christ. Yeah.

A (138:02)

Yeah. I read that book.

B (138:03)

Okay.

A (138:04)

Yeah. Back in my discernment of the Friars days. Yeah.

B (138:08)

Yeah. So that's the one that I would start with. Well, no, that's not the one I would start with because you're not gonna be able to find it. Bonaventure.

A (138:15)

I'm finding it right now.

B (138:15)

Yeah, but how much is it? Can you get it?

A (138:18)

$5.95.

B (138:19)

Okay, well, I take it back. I take it back. It's there. I thought it was one of these books that was, like, out of print, so I was like, yeah, that's a. Oh, you nailed it. You even got the color right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's. It's on Francis, but it's on Franciscan spirituality. And I think it, like, nails it and it. Yeah. It gives us clearly that Francis is the man who, like, loved the cross and it was always before him. And I think it's so important because as a Franciscan in our spirituality is like the meditation on the cross has to be kind of like at the heart of our own spirituality.

A (138:52)

He was such a remarkable person that I think that if Christianity ended, not that it would, and then 100 years from now, someone had to write down, like, the top 100 human beings who ever lived. I wouldn't be surprised if he made the list.

B (139:07)

Yeah.

A (139:08)

Like, what a mammoth figure. What happened back then? Some kind of earthquake went off in humanity and society, in the world. That was Francis of Assisi.

B (139:17)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and, you know, obviously, like, the Dominicans were raised up at that time as well. There was just something.

A (139:27)

Yeah, but I mean, next to Dominic, I mean, he kind of. He covers your comment. Maybe not next to a cool. Right. But, yeah, like, his personal witness was.

B (139:40)

By the way, thank you to all the Dominicans for popularizing the devotion to the rosary, which I, as a Franciscan, recently took advantage of.

A (139:48)

Do you get much of that?

B (139:49)

There's just like, one guy made a joke about it in a. In a playful way. But yeah, Francis I'm so interested in. I mean, hopefully in a. Yeah, obviously I'm interested in Francis. What's kind of struck me recently too, is just so, like, Francis has a human experience of being, like, publicly rejected and being disowned by his dad, and that just doesn't go away. And I really believe some of the radicality and the intensity of his search of his falling of Christ was his. Like, I'm made for, like, the love of a Father, and Jesus is the way in which I come to know the Father and the Father's revealed to me. And I just.

A (140:24)

Yeah, I remember being so impressed with him during my trip to World Youth Day in Rome. That's when I converted that I thought if I had, I would have made a religion out of Francis if I could have. This is when I was an atheist, agnostic, you know.

B (140:41)

Yeah.

A (140:42)

He's just remarkable.

B (140:43)

Yeah.

A (140:43)

I mean. Yeah, if that kind of effect had. Have come about through some other non Christian spiritual experience, it would absolutely be its own religion.

B (140:50)

If it was rooted in. In actual Francis, it would have just led you to Catholicism. So that's the thing that I love about him is like, he was the most. He was a truly, truly, profoundly, deeply Catholic man. And I think that's so important because all of his radicality and all of his zeal stayed in the heart of the Church.

A (141:11)

You know what's beautiful is the basilica in Padua.

B (141:15)

Never been.

A (141:15)

I was shocked. I'm always ready to be disappointed by a good church. Always just completely cynical. And it is one of the most beautiful churches I've seen.

B (141:24)

Yeah.

A (141:24)

Yeah.

B (141:25)

What about it?

A (141:26)

It was grand and proportionate and beautiful, which I guess is part of what being beautiful means. It also has a sort of offshoot with all of his relics, including his vocal cords and his habit and things like this.

B (141:43)

Yeah.

A (141:43)

And it was really prayerful. Maybe that's also. You know, it's quite disappointing when you mosey on into these churches in Europe just to discover that they're a museum filled with people who don't care about the Blessed Sacrament. Yeah, but this was not like that. This was very. It felt very vibrant with the faith.

B (141:58)

Have you been to Assisi?

A (142:00)

Yeah. I mean, I loved Assisi.

B (142:03)

I haven't been, so. I don't know.

A (142:04)

Oh, come on. Why? Can I get you a flight there? I'll buy you a flight there.

B (142:08)

I appreciate that. I. God's timing.

A (142:13)

Yeah. Well, let me know if you'd like. I'd be happy to repay the favor for all our wonderful conversations on this show, but, yeah, it was excellent. I mean, I went there last year with my good wife and children. We had a beautiful time. I will say. What. We stayed at an Airbnb, and the fella. His cynicism about the place, it maybe infected me a little bit. He grew up in Assisi.

B (142:38)

Okay.

A (142:38)

Which I guess is rare, but he called it a medieval Disneyland. And so the reason it looks just like something you might expect from the 13th century is because it's very intentionally made that way to bring in the mullah.

B (142:50)

Yeah.

A (142:51)

Yeah. So I don't care. Shut up. I still don't care. I don't know.

B (142:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that. Is that the only reason that it is preserved the way it is? Probably not.

A (143:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. But. And even if it was, well, at least we're still going to something that looks like that. And it was really beautiful. No, I got to go out to the outskirts where Francis would pray in his little cave where he would pray and things like that. Yeah, it was beautiful. And the paintings are very unique. The frescoes. Is that what they call them? I'm not even sure if I know what that word means.

B (143:20)

Fresco is like, a particular way of doing.

A (143:25)

I'm just gonna say paintings. That fits down to my level. These paintings in the church were beautiful. They seem to kind of bridge the gap between what you imagine when you think of Like Western Christian paintings and Eastern iconography. Yeah, it was really beautiful.

B (143:37)

Yeah. We have gotten to. It's now we have guys in. We call it temporary formation for about four years. And I think part of our plan now is for everyone in their. We call it TP formation to go at once. So I think every four years they're starting to take meta information on pilgrimage to Assisi, but that.

A (143:58)

I feel like you gotta complain to the upper management about the fact that you've never been there.

B (144:03)

I. I mean, I had a conversation yesterday here for about an hour with somebody talking, pitching to me, talking to me, brainstorming through a potential pilgrimage to Assisi. Yeah. The options are there. I'm not the biggest pilgrimage guy in the world.

A (144:18)

I don't like pilgrimages.

B (144:19)

I'm kind of mainly.

A (144:20)

Cause I don't like people or buses.

B (144:21)

Oh, okay. Well, I'm more like a mission trip guy, so that's probably the number one thing. But I also am a Franciscan and Assisi is important and places are important and Catholic worldview. So when God calls me, I'll go.

A (144:36)

Let's see. Fresco. I need to figure this out. Fresco. Here we go. Is a technique of mural painting executed upon freshly laid lime plaster. Water is used as the vehicle for the dry powder pigment to merge something, something.

B (144:54)

All right, There we go.

A (144:57)

Yeah, but here's what I mean. Even though no one else can see this, and so it's going to upset everybody, but do you see that? Kind of see that?

B (145:03)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. I'm familiar with. Yeah, I see the artwork. I've seen the artwork.

A (145:07)

See what I mean when I say it seems to bridge west and east in some sense?

B (145:10)

I do.

A (145:10)

Yeah.

B (145:11)

Yeah, it's beautiful.

A (145:13)

Any other thoughts on the rosary before we wrap up?

B (145:15)

Any other thoughts on the rosary?

A (145:16)

It's gonna be asked. Hey, I want to show everyone this book. This book is by my good friend Gabby Casillo.

B (145:28)

Nice one.

A (145:29)

And I'd say this is the best book I've ever read on the rosary. It's called the Power of the Rosary by Gabrielle Castillo or Gabby. We've had him on the show before. Think of this. I mean, you can't really say it's the best because saints have written books. You should probably give them deference. But it's the best book I've read on the rosary and I'd highly recommend people get it. It's from Sophia Institute Press. I'm sure it's on Amazon.

B (145:48)

I think I have a note on the back about it recommending it.

A (145:53)

Let's see what you say about it. Wouldn't recommend. Not highly inspiring.

B (145:58)

Whoa, they still printed that?

A (146:00)

Yeah. You said Pope Benedict XVI noted that the rosary is experiencing a new springtime and popular piety. The power of the rosary stands as a striking example. That reads like you didn't actually read the book. That's what that. When I read that, I think you didn't read the book.

B (146:14)

Well, read all of them.

A (146:16)

What do you mean?

B (146:17)

Well, because you don't talk about the details of it. You talk about the. The rosary might have to go.

A (146:21)

The power of the rosary stands is a striking example of this movement of grace.

B (146:25)

Keep going.

A (146:26)

That's it. That's all it says. Did you write more?

B (146:28)

I don't know.

A (146:29)

Oh, no. Here we go. The book is both inspirational.

B (146:32)

Okay.

A (146:33)

And formational and for many hearts is a sure aid defining comfort in Mary's motherhood and sanctity through this most anointed. Yeah, I'm still not sure you read it.

B (146:42)

I would say this. I wouldn't. I may not have read every single word, but I'm not gonna throw my name on something I haven't read at all.

A (146:51)

Well, I did that recently with Father Gregory Pine's book. He sent me a book. I'm like, listen, I love you, but I'm not gonna spend three hours reading through a PDF. So I'm like, okay, Father Gregory, he's legit. I scroll through, I see some things. It's nice. There you go.

B (147:03)

Yeah. Because I do find it important, even when we do stuff on our podcast or whatever to actually. Because if you just throw your name behind anything, it loses and it's like a dumb thing or a bad thing.

A (147:17)

It's not helpful. But anyway, I would highly recommend people get this book. It's excellent. Oh, this is funny. There's a Sister Mary, Mediatrix of old Grace. Uh huh. That's her name. I wonder if she has to change that now.

B (147:32)

No, probably not.

A (147:33)

No, probably not. Yeah. All right. This has gone off the rails. What else will that do?

B (147:39)

Yeah, yeah. I'm just grateful. And I'm grateful for God and his mercy. And one of, you know, one of the things that I've. I came to share. My conversion happened October of 2023. What happened? No, my conversion opened October. Conversion happened October of 2003. Okay.

A (148:02)

Wow.

B (148:03)

And which is right at the exact ending of the year of the most holy rosary instituted by John Pa, Paul II in October of 2022. And so I've just kind of like come through this journey to see like, I really believe that some of the grace of my conversion was the fruit of people praying the rosary. And. And so it's a gift for me now to be back in a place where I can be, if you will, repaying the favor by bringing other people to pray the rosary. And I think that, I guess the last word I would have is like, there's. There's. The devil is in the business of discouragement and despair and darkness and all that. And there is a huge amount of reason for hope and good things and great things are happening, even in the church, even the church of the United States, even right now. Good and good things are in the world. God has got it. God is big, and he's doing a perfect job. And there's, I think, a great invitation to authentic Christian hope. We are people of hope. We are not people of despair or discouragement. If we place our hope in the Lord, like, we never hope in vain. And so I just think, like, if we are feeling deep frustration, discouragement, a great medicine and remedy to that is gonna be bringing our focus back on Christ. And I think a really privileged place of doing that is by a. A regular and daily recitation of most holy rosaries, which is the most real thing, which is the cause of our hope, the source of our joy. And we just kind of need to get back to keeping our eyes on him and what he's done and what he's doing and who he is.

A (149:46)

Beautifully put. Thank you so much.

B (149:47)

You're welcome, Matt.