Podcast Summary: Pints With Aquinas Ep. 557

Episode Title: The New Testament, the Historical Jesus, and His Divine Claims (with Dr. Michael Barber)
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Matt Fradd
Guest: Dr. Michael Patrick Barber

Overview

In this wide-ranging episode, Matt Fradd sits down with biblical scholar Dr. Michael Patrick Barber to tackle fundamental questions about the New Testament, the historical reliability of the Gospels, the existence and divinity of Jesus, the development of early Christian doctrine, and how Catholics can approach both skepticism and biblical study. The conversation is rich with historical detail, scholarly nuance, and practical advice for Catholics seeking greater scriptural literacy. Dr. Barber emphasizes the importance of understanding Jesus in his Jewish context and encourages a critical yet faithful approach to Scripture.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Trust the New Testament?

• Common Skepticism: Matt articulates prevalent doubts: "Do we really have any good reason to think that what the authors recorded actually happened? Is this something that developed over time? Maybe it's not pure myth, but maybe so much myth has grown up around it that it's really not something we can trust." (04:46)
• Barber’s Response: Dr. Barber pushes Catholics to value Scripture more highly, lamenting a lack of passion for Scripture in Catholic circles. He stresses the “study of the sacred page as the soul of theology,” referencing Vatican II and Thomas Aquinas (06:10).

2. Did Jesus Really Exist, or Is He a Myth?

• Mythicism Rejected by Scholars: Dr. Barber underscores that Jesus mythicism isn’t taken seriously by credible scholars, with rare exceptions like Robert Price or Richard Carrier (08:30).
• Serious Scholarship Defined: A “serious scholar” works with original languages, knows ancient sources, and participates in peer-reviewed forums rather than popular or sensationalist venues (08:58–12:29).
• Historical Evidence: Affirms non-Christian sources mentioning Jesus—especially Josephus—and explains scholarly debates about Christian interpolations. Dr. Barber summarizes new arguments suggesting even the "problematic" bits of Josephus may have originally been sarcastic, but still refer to a real figure (16:15).

3. Addressing Bias in Ancient Sources

• Challenge: Matt reenacts a student’s objection: “These books are clearly biased. Give me something written by someone who isn’t a believer in Jesus.” (26:00)
• Barber’s Counter: All ancient writings are biased; this is no reason to dismiss them wholesale. If we required unbiased sources, we’d know little about ancient history at all (27:34).

4. Can We Accept the Miracles and Divinity Claims?

• Historical Jesus Scholarship: Barber walks through the “criteria of authenticity” (multiple attestation, embarrassment, dissimilarity) used by historians, but ultimately finds them insufficient for reconstructing the Jesus tradition with certainty (39:57–44:47).
• Recurrent Attestation: Prefers the method of focusing on what is “recurrently attested” and fits within a first-century Jewish context. “If we have something that is all over our sources, and it does not fit the later Christian agenda, it's much more likely to be authentic.” (56:55)
• Miracle Working Reputation: Even skeptical Jewish and pagan sources attest to Jesus as a miracle worker; later Jewish texts attribute his miracles to sorcery, not denial (58:49).
• The Gospels’ Similarity Explained: The early community was small, and literate followers were few. The consistency in the narrative is a sign of careful transmission and the presence of living witnesses (61:52).

5. The Jewish Context of Jesus and Anti-Semitism Concerns

• Jesus’ Jewishness: “The Jewishness of Jesus is something that needs to be emphasized… we've been so habituated by much modern Christianity to see anything that's Jewish as Pharisaical, as something that we need to separate ourselves against, rather than appreciate.” (86:35)
• Against Anti-Semitism: Dr. Barber critiques interpretations that denigrate ritual, priesthood, or the Pharisees and explores how these views have historically fueled anti-Semitism (81:07–86:59).
• Pharisees Reconsidered: “He does criticize the Pharisees, but he criticizes them because they don't always live up to their teachings… It's the disciples Jesus frequently castigates as ‘having no faith.’” (83:16–84:22)

6. How the Gospels Were Written and Transmitted

• Not Journalistic Accounts: “The Gospel writers are not writing like journalistic accounts… We get the substance of what Jesus is saying. Nobody expected ancient writers to give you a perfect transcript.” (67:00–68:07)
• Inerrancy and Ancient Literary Norms: Catholics believe in inerrancy, but should understand what the biblical authors meant to affirm, and respect the literary forms of the time (67:24–68:45).
• Early Church Recognition: Early Church Fathers like Origen and Augustine were unbothered by differences in Gospel details; they understood the flexible, creative aspects of ancient storytelling (69:49).

7. The Gospel of Matthew, Q Source, and Hebrew Matthew

• Complex Gospel Origins: Explains various theories about Gospel dependence (Markan priority, Q source, etc.), noting that strong patristic evidence exists for a “Hebrew Matthew”—a Jewish document also referenced by Jerome (46:07–47:38).
• Multiple Attestation Limitations: “No matter what, the early church is really small. So to imagine that they don't know each other… The number of literate Christians is really small.” (52:41–53:30)

8. Development of Christ's Divine Claims

• What Did Jesus Claim? “Nowhere in Scripture that I can think of does he come out and say, I'm God.” (133:48)
• Trinitarian Development: The doctrine developed precisely to make sense of the evidence; doctrine of the Trinity “sets parameters” based on Jesus being Son in a unique way and being worshiped alongside the Father and Spirit (135:23–139:56).
• Direct Divine Claims: Points to Matthew 7 (“Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom”) as a claim to the divine name, referencing a technical use of "Lord, Lord" for the Tetragrammaton in the Greek Old Testament (142:44–145:06).

9. Advice for Catholics and Scripture Study

• Getting Over Guilt: “Pick up a good book on the scriptures that can help unlock things that maybe you haven't seen before. Also, I would just say sit down and read the Gospel of Mark. The Gospel of Mark is riveting.” (149:05)
• Reading Translations: “The best Bible? The one that you will actually read.” (153:59)

10. Practical & Pastoral Reflections

• Engagement Across Traditions: Barber encourages building bridges between Catholics, Protestants, and Jews; abjures pejorative labeling (128:09).
• Motivation for Scripture Study: Echoes St. John Paul II: “A rosary without meditation is like a body without a soul—again, it’s a corpse.” (123:35)
• Caution in Interpretation: Highlights popular but misguided interpretations—e.g., over-reading Greek word play, etymological fallacies, or clearly anti-Semitic readings (104:07–112:31).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dead Theology:
  “A theology that doesn't make the study of the sacred page its soul is a dead theology.”
  – Dr. Barber (06:10)

• On Scholarly Hype vs Accountability:
  “It's really fun to look like the smartest person in the room... But the check on that pride is to go to academic conferences and present papers in front of people who do know the biblical languages.”
  – Barber (11:23)

• On Miracles and Skepticism:
  “If you don't think that that [miracle working] is his reputation, what he was known for, then you're just digging your hole, putting your head in the sand, because it's all over our sources.”
  – Barber (58:49)

• On the Synoptic Gospels:
  “The reason we have a problem is because they're so similar.”
  – Barber (61:52)

• On God's Respect for Human Freedom:
  “Hell is something that we choose for ourselves… Those who go to hell choose it for themselves, and if they could be released from hell, they wouldn’t leave hell because they've chosen it.”
  – Barber (170:33)

• Advice on Bible Translations:
  “The best Bible? The one that you will actually read.”
  – Barber (153:59)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Start of Interview and Importance of Scripture Study: 04:46
• Jesus Mythicism and What Makes a "Serious" Scholar: 08:30–12:29
• Josephus and Non-Christian Evidence: 16:15–18:00
• Is Bias a Problem for History?: 26:00–27:34
• Criteria of Authenticity and Their Problems: 39:57–44:47
• The Q Hypothesis and Gospel Transmission: 44:47–53:30
• Miracle Traditions and Early Skeptics: 58:49–61:52
• Gospel Differences, Inerrancy, and Ancient Literary Norms: 67:00–68:45
• Jesus and Jewish Context, Anti-Semitism in Interpretation: 81:07–87:43
• The Divine Claims of Jesus – Not Just in John: 133:48–145:06
• Barber’s Pastoral Advice on Scripture and Study: 149:05–153:59
• Universalism and Salvation Discussion: 165:12–173:56

Flow & Tone

The episode flows as a relaxed, candid conversation, with Matt offering the audience’s typical doubts and Dr. Barber responding with deep scholarly background, warm humor, and an emphasis on respectful, open-minded inquiry. Moments of lightheartedness—such as the discussion of misused Greek wordplay or being told by a student to dress better—are interwoven with reflective pastoral and theological insights.

Final Takeaways

• Scripture as Central: Catholics must ground their faith in the “sacred page” and not fear biblical study.
• Historical Jesus Scholarship: While perfect objectivity is impossible, there are firm historical reasons to affirm Jesus's existence, ministry, and central claims—while recognizing the development of doctrine and the limits of history.
• Critical but Faithful Reading: Understand the literary and cultural context of the texts, respect Jewish roots, and exercise charity—both in interpretation and in engagement with those who see things differently.
• Pastoral Encouragement: Don’t get hung up on translation or scholarly minutiae; read the Gospels for yourself, stay rooted in prayer, and immerse yourself in the living tradition of the Church.

Resources and Further Learning

• Dr. Barber's website
• Augustine Institute
• Books recommended by Dr. Barber:
  • The True Meaning of Christmas
  • Salvation: What Every Catholic Should Know
  • Paul: A New Covenant Jew (with Brant Pitre and John Kincaid)

[End of Summary]