Pints With Aquinas Ep. 553

The Truth, Reality, and Conspiracy Theories (with Joe Heschmeyer)

Date: November 21, 2025
Host: Matt Fradd
Guest: Joe Heschmeyer

Episode Overview

This episode is a wide-ranging, deeply philosophical and engaging discussion between Matt Fradd and Catholic apologist Joe Heschmeyer, exploring key topics such as the possibility and limits of knowledge, the allure and dangers of conspiracy theories, authority and skepticism in modern society, and comparative analysis of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Mormonism, and broader religious epistemology. Their candid, humorous, and intellectually robust dialogue unpacks how Catholics can respond to modern crises of confidence and truth, giving listeners tools to navigate the onslaught of information and the increasing skepticism of our time.

Main Discussion Themes

1. Debating Baptism and the Boundaries of Christianity

[03:02 - 09:18]

• Matt recounts a recent debate with a non-denominational Christian who claimed that anyone who believes in baptismal regeneration (the historical Christian view) is "not going to heaven," including presumably all Christians from the first millennium.
• Joe and Matt discuss the roots of this extreme Protestant view, tracing it back to Radical Reformation and Augustine’s anti-Pelagian writings, highlighting how contemporary expressions often take earlier arguments to an unprecedented extreme.
• They discuss the remarkable unanimity of the Church Fathers regarding baptism’s efficacy, referencing Everett Ferguson's research.

Notable Quotes:

• "You took the Bible too literally, so you go to hell. That's a wild take." — Matt Fradd [04:41]
• "This is actually a radically extreme version of Christianity that's completely unknown to history. Like this would be like coming along and saying 2000 years of Christians are wrong." — Matt Fradd [08:25]

2. Debate Culture: Psychology, Preparation, and Pitfalls

[09:18 - 16:42]

• Matt and Joe discuss the merits and limits of public debates, how social media and online platforms amplify polarized responses, and the temptation to seek only feedback that confirms existing positions.
• They reflect on the nature of effective debate—to inform the audience and plant seeds, not necessarily convert one’s opponent.
• The dangers of unprepared debating and the superficiality of "debate as entertainment" are highlighted.

Notable Quotes:

• "But I think it's healthy if you do debates to just censor out the people telling you what you want to hear who are already on your side, just telling you, great job. It's nice, it's comforting. But don't let that make you think that you've actually won the debate." — Matt Fradd [10:29]

3. Information Overload, Epistemic Paralysis, and “Paradox of Choice”

[18:32 - 24:03]

• Joe articulates how the internet age's deluge of information leads not just to relativism, but to an “irrational dogmatism” and skepticism about ever making "cognitive contact with reality" [18:32].
• Matt introduces Barry Schwartz’s “paradox of choice,” comparing it to the spiritual search: on both counts, excessive options cause paralysis and a lack of commitment.
• They stress the need for a rational threshold for action, especially in religious discernment, highlighting the importance of focusing on foundational questions: “Is the Catholic Church who she says she is?” and “Did Christ establish a visible Church?”

Notable Quotes:

• "The onslaught of information, many of us are skeptical that we can make successful cognitive contact with reality." — Joe Heschmeyer [18:32]
• "You have to have a reasonable threshold of action... The threshold is much simpler: Is he who he says he is? And once you have enough information to say he is, now you can say yes to him." — Matt Fradd [22:21]

4. Internal Coherence vs. Truth and the Conspiracy Theory Mentality

[26:31 - 40:08]

• Analysis of how “internally coherent” worldviews (dispensationalism, Calvinism, conspiracy theories) can be wrong but compelling; arrangement of “puzzle pieces” makes dissent nearly impossible for insiders but often incoherent to outsiders.
• They note how conspiracy theorists are often better “debaters" on their pet topic, having delved far deeper than most challengers.

Notable Quotes:

• "You can make sense of reality in all these different ways. And so one of the challenges we have is... you've got an infinite number of arrangements that those puzzle pieces could go in. And it seems genuinely limitless." — Matt Fradd [28:49]
• "Isn't that bizarre that you can conclude that somebody is wrong that you can't out-debate?" — Joe Heschmeyer [30:48]

5. The Roots of Skepticism—Media, Government, and the Church

[40:08 - 53:53]

• Discussion of eroding trust in science, the state, the media, and even the Church, especially post–COVID and sex abuse scandals.
• They observe the psychological impact of continual lies or even isolated, unaddressed ones (“boy who cried wolf”), resulting in ingrained skepticism of everything (“pragmatic exhaustion,” John Eldridge).

Notable Quotes:

• "When you cover up the sex abuse crisis, it makes it a lot harder to believe anything else you're going to say, even when you're literally preaching the gospel because you've shot your own credibility in the face, not just the foot." — Joe Heschmeyer [45:25]
• "No wonder we don't trust anything." — Joe Heschmeyer [53:53]

6. Faith, Humility, and the Limits of Knowledge

[54:14 - 80:53]

• Joe brings up Thomas Kuhn’s “paradigm shift” and the Copernican model as metaphors for how hard it is to change minds, how every system has challenging, unanswered “outlier data,” and how the demand for perfect answers is unrealistic.
• They dialogue about the definition of “knowledge” (Gettier problems, phenomenal conservatism), and the inability to attain “Cartesian certainty.”
• Humility and trust—of competent authorities, and ultimately of Christ— are essential since exhaustive certainty is impossible.

Notable Quotes:

• "If you're waiting to have a 100% grasp of everything where you can explain all of the details, you're not going to get there. You just are not." — Matt Fradd [56:53]
• "If something appears to be the case, seems to be the case, then I have at least some justification for thinking that it is the case... that's just how every human being has always reasoned at all times." — Joe Heschmeyer [78:26]

7. AI, Simulation, and the Case for Christian Realism

[81:35 - 86:56]

• Explores simulation theory, the limits of artificial intelligence, and why AI cannot produce consciousness or “soul.”
• Christianity is uniquely positioned to affirm reality against the fast-growing temptation toward materialist unreality or skepticism.

Notable Quotes:

• "One of the great arguments for Christianity right now is that we can actually affirm reality." — Matt Fradd [82:27]

8. Globalization, Culture, Language, and Identity

[94:05 - 122:26]

• A lively and humorous segment on cultural homogenization, the spread of English and American pop culture, linguistic and racial blending, and the loss of local distinctiveness.
• They reflect on how even accents, languages, and definitions of races or nationalities are rapidly diluting.

Notable Quotes:

• "We're living in an age where every major metropolis in the world is more similar to every other major metropolis in the world than any of those cities are to the little towns an hour and a half away from them." — Matt Fradd [96:32]
• "The older idea of race is going to be almost unintelligible at the rate things are going." — Joe Heschmeyer [102:33]

9. Group Identity, Scapegoating, and Out-Groups

[124:25 - 127:30]

• Addressing the human tendency to create “out-groups,” even as cultures blend and distinctions collapse.
• The need for caution against projecting blame and seeking scapegoats in times of upheaval.

Notable Quotes:

• "As you have these forces that are drawing us together and making us more alike, the desire to have an out group doesn't go away. There is something deeply hardwired in us where we want to protect ourselves from the other." — Joe Heschmeyer [125:03]

10. Israel, Gaza, Just War, and Moral Absolutes

[127:30 - 144:02]

• Joe thoroughly debunks “Christian Zionist” readings of support for Israel and stresses that biblical covenants run through faith, culminating in the Church.
• They critique how both sides of any modern conflict engage in propaganda; highlight Catholic just war teaching; and apply it to the atomic bomb, Israel-Gaza, and the moral limits of consequentialism.

Notable Quotes:

• "The first casualty in war is the truth." — Joe Heschmeyer [129:22]
• "If the way you plan to get to your goal involves doing things that are morally unacceptable, find another strategy or give up your goal. Like those are the two choices." — Joe Heschmeyer [142:48]

11. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Religious Epistemology

[145:45 - 163:48]

• Detailed comparison of Catholic and Orthodox claims, highlighting why the visibility, universality, and Petrine dimension (the papacy) are essential marks of the Church founded by Christ.
• Discernment of the true Church should be Christ-centered (“Is this the church established by Jesus Christ?”), not mere alignment with one’s own theology.
• They explain why the Orthodox claim, while robust, suffers from the lack of Petrine primacy.

Notable Quotes:

• "The question is really simple. Is this the church established by Jesus Christ? And if it is, you should be part of it, and if it's not, you shouldn't." — Joe Heschmeyer [160:25]
• "If that's true, if Peter is to be the servant of the servants of God, that's part of the DNA of the Church. And so we should look to find the one church where we still clearly see that." — Joe Heschmeyer [170:24]

12. Mormonism: The Great Apostasy and Defectibility of the Church

[171:49 - 194:53]

• Mormonism asserts the Church fell into a worldwide apostasy, restored only by Joseph Smith; Joe critiques this as unbiblical and historically indefensible.
• He details similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad, emphasizing self-serving “revelations” and problematic origins of LDS authority.
• Matt and Joe agree that while dismissive mockery is understandable for false ideas, genuine engagement with individuals demands charity, understanding, and the ability to articulate the positive case for Catholicism.

Notable Quotes:

• "If Christ himself established a church, why would that not be at least as durable as one refounded by Joseph Smith?" — Joe Heschmeyer [193:09]
• "We should find those areas of common ground and then show, yes, the visible church is real, it is important and is created by Christ. And that's why we don't think he got rid of it 80 years later...." — Joe Heschmeyer [192:48]
• "If you're going to be effective at evangelization, we should find those areas of common ground and then show where they've gone off and seen an incomplete picture." — Joe Heschmeyer [188:41]

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:41 | Matt Fradd | “You took the Bible too literally, so you go to hell. That's a wild take.” | | 18:32 | Joe Heschmeyer | "Because of the onslaught of information, many of us are skeptical that we can make successful cognitive contact with reality." | | 22:21 | Matt Fradd | "Once you have enough information to say he is [who he claims to be], now you can say yes to him." | | 53:19 | Joe Heschmeyer | "The internet has made us all weary, skeptical pragmatists." | | 82:27 | Matt Fradd | "One of the great arguments for Christianity right now is that we can actually affirm reality." | | 102:33 | Joe Heschmeyer | "The older idea of race is going to be almost unintelligible at the rate things are going." | | 125:03 | Joe Heschmeyer | "The desire to have an out group doesn't go away. There is something deeply hardwired in us where we want to protect ourselves from the other." | | 129:22 | Joe Heschmeyer | "The first casualty in war is the truth." | | 142:48 | Joe Heschmeyer | "If the way you plan to get to your goal involves doing things that are morally unacceptable, find another strategy or give up your goal. Like those are the two choices." | | 160:25 | Joe Heschmeyer | "The question is really simple. Is this the church established by Jesus Christ? And if it is, you should be part of it, and if it's not, you shouldn't." | | 170:04 | Joe Heschmeyer | "Peter single-handedly does what all seven of them together couldn't do, which is to bring the nets ashore. And it says he does them without the nets tearing." | | 193:09 | Joe Heschmeyer | "If Christ himself established a church, why would that not be at least as durable as one refounded by Joseph Smith?" |

Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

• Debate culture and prepping: [09:18 - 16:42]
• Skepticism, authority, and information overload: [18:32 - 40:08]
• Epistemology & phenomenal conservatism: [78:26]
• Conspiracy psychology: [30:48 - 35:54]
• Just war and Israel/Gaza: [129:00 - 144:02]
• Catholic vs. Orthodox ecclesiology: [145:45 - 171:42]
• Mormonism and apostasy: [172:01 - 194:53]

Tone & Style

• The discussion is simultaneously lighthearted and intellectually rigorous, with Matt and Joe frequently using humor as they explore weighty philosophical and theological matters.
• The rapport is friendly, with banter about linguistic quirks, world travel, and pop culture (“You're in the pocket of big moon”; “Let’s talk about Taylor Swift”) blending into deep explorations of history, doctrine, and contemporary anxieties.

Conclusion

This episode is a rich and broad philosophical journey that equips listeners to face modern crises of trust, truth, and authority, particularly as Catholics, while traversing issues of doctrine, inter-Christian debate, the digital age’s epistemological challenges, globalization, and the perennial appeal of conspiracies. In sum, it offers both hope and sobering realism about the limits of what we can know, the importance of humility, and the necessity of rational faith.

For related topics:

• Joe Heschmeyer’s books: “Pope Peter” and “The Eucharist is Really Jesus”
• Joe’s own show: Shameless Popery
• For further debate and apologetics: Catholic Answers, Trent Horn, Jimmy Akin

End of Summary