AI Therapy, “Mankeeping,” and Screen Addiction

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pivot – Episode on AI Therapy, "Let Them," and Screen Addiction

Podcast Information

• Title: Pivot
• Hosts: Kara Swisher (New York Magazine) and Mel Robbins (Award-Winning Podcast Host & Author)
• Episode Title: AI Therapy, “Let Them,” and Screen Addiction
• Release Date: August 8, 2025

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Introduction to Mel Robbins and Her "Let Them" Theory

Timestamp: 02:07 – 09:42

In this episode of Pivot, Kara Swisher welcomes Mel Robbins as her co-host. Mel Robbins, known for her bestselling book and expertise in mindset and behavioral change, introduces her groundbreaking concept, the "Let Them" theory. This philosophy is centered around the dichotomy of "Let Them" versus "Let Me", emphasizing control over one's own actions and emotions rather than attempting to control others.

Key Points:

• Control Dynamics: Most people expend excessive energy trying to control what they cannot—mainly other people's actions and emotions.
• Autonomy in Action: By adopting the "Let Them" mindset, individuals focus on what they can control: their thoughts, actions, and responses.
• Philosophical Roots: The theory draws from stoicism, radical acceptance, and detachment, akin to practices outlined in the serenity prayer.

Notable Quote:

"The moment you stop and consider how you feel about doing something within five seconds, if you don't do it, your kind of automatic thinking loops will take over."
— Mel Robbins (05:33)

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Impact of Chronic Stress on Cognitive Function

Timestamp: 09:42 – 10:50

Mel discusses research by Dr. Aditi Nurakar from Harvard Medical School, highlighting that 80% of Americans are in a chronic state of stress, affecting their brain functions. Chronic stress activates the amygdala, diminishing the prefrontal cortex's ability to think strategically or regulate emotions effectively.

Key Points:

• Cognitive Impairment: High stress levels decrease critical thinking and emotional regulation.
• Interpersonal Challenges: Individuals under chronic stress are more likely to interact with others who are not fully functioning emotionally, leading to strained relationships.

Notable Quote:

"You're dealing nine times out of 10 or eight times out of 10, rather, with somebody who is not fully able to function."
— Mel Robbins (10:50)

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Applying the "Let Them" Theory in Relationships

Timestamp: 11:09 – 17:08

Mel elaborates on the practical application of the "Let Them" theory in personal relationships, especially when dealing with challenging personalities such as narcissists. She emphasizes accepting others as they are and reclaiming personal power through "Let Me".

Key Points:

• Acceptance Over Change: Instead of trying to change others, accept their behavior and focus on how you respond.
• Boundary Setting: Establishing clear boundaries to protect one's own mental health.
• Empirical Support: References to experts like Dr. Ramani Diversola highlight the effectiveness of this approach in managing toxic relationships.

Notable Quote:

"Let them forces you to accept the facts that you're dealing with... and let me is how you cue yourself to take back power."
— Mel Robbins (15:38)

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AI in Mental Health Care: Benefits and Risks

Timestamp: 33:16 – 43:19

The conversation shifts to the emergence of AI in mental health care. Illinois has pioneered regulations banning AI from acting as standalone therapists, acknowledging both the potential and the pitfalls of AI in this sensitive domain.

Key Points:

• Regulatory Landscape: Illinois has enacted laws to ensure AI tools in mental health are supervised by professionals, preventing autonomous operation.
• Generative AI Use Cases: A Harvard Business School report indicates that the primary use of generative AI has shifted towards therapy and companionship.
• Clinical Insights: A Dartmouth clinical trial showed significant symptom reduction in depression and anxiety when AI-supported by humans was utilized.
• Concerns: Without proper regulation, AI can provide inadequate support, potentially exacerbating mental health issues due to lack of emotional understanding and proper oversight.

Notable Quotes:

"AI is fundamentally not able to work autonomously."
— Mel Robbins (41:26)

"This case law is as big of a deal as Citizens United... it is going to unravel copyrighted work and artistic work."
— Mel Robbins (83:46)

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Screen Addiction and Strategies to Mitigate It

Timestamp: 45:27 – 57:19

Mel Robbins addresses the pervasive issue of screen addiction, drawing parallels to addictive substances. She offers practical strategies to regain control over one's digital consumption.

Key Points:

• Nature of Addiction: Screen time is designed to be addictive, leveraging dopamine hits to keep users engaged.
• Behavioral Adjustments: Implementing boundaries such as not reaching for the phone during idle moments (e.g., standing in line).
• Family Practices: Establishing phone-free zones and times, like during family meals, to foster better connections and reduce dependency.
• Research Support: Studies from the University of Southern Florida highlight the detrimental effects of phone use on sleep and overall well-being in children.

Notable Quotes:

"You have more power than you think."
— Mel Robbins (48:15)

"Don't give your time and energy to these idiots... because your time and energy are so much more valuable."
— Mel Robbins (13:25)

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Mankeeping: Emotional Isolation Among Men

Timestamp: 58:21 – 83:46

The hosts delve into the concept of "Mankeeping," a term describing the emotional burden women often bear in heterosexual relationships due to men's limited emotional expression and reliance on their partners for emotional support.

Key Points:

• Emotional Disconnect: Men, often socialized to suppress emotions, struggle to form deep, one-on-one friendships, leading to isolation.
• Friendship Dynamics: Mel outlines the three pillars of friendship—proximity, timing, and energy—explaining how these factors contribute to the formation and dissolution of friendships.
• Practical Advice for Women: Establishing clear boundaries and encouraging men to expand their social circles beyond romantic relationships to alleviate the emotional load on women.
• Techniques for Building Connections: Encouraging men to engage in group activities and maintain friendships outside of their immediate circles to enhance emotional resilience.

Notable Quotes:

"Friendships naturally come and go, and it doesn't mean anything's wrong. It's actually good."
— Mel Robbins (66:42)

"Men are struggling... they default to needing groups to feel like they have relationships with other people."
— Mel Robbins (62:50)

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Wins and Fails: Navigating AI and Content Regulation

Timestamp: 77:40 – 86:04

In the segment "Wins and Fails," Kara and Mel discuss recent developments in AI regulation and its implications for content creators and consumers.

Key Points:

• AI and Intellectual Property: A federal court ruling in San Francisco grants AI companies the right to use copyrighted materials without proper attribution, posing significant threats to creators.
• Case Law Concerns: The decision jeopardizes the protection of original content, likened to the impact of the Citizens United case on democracy.
• Personal Impact: Mel shares her experiences with AI-generated fake content mimicking her voice and persona, highlighting the urgent need for regulation.
• Consumer Awareness: Emphasizing the importance of labeling AI-generated content to ensure transparency and protect consumers from misinformation.

Notable Quotes:

"If you can’t get it taken down, how the hell is stealing your stuff?"
— Mel Robbins (82:27)

"I will love doing it at our age... we are truly winning."
— Mel Robbins (86:39)

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 86:01 – End

Kara and Mel wrap up the episode by reflecting on the importance of embracing change, setting boundaries, and fostering genuine connections in an increasingly digital and polarized world. They encourage listeners to apply the "Let Them" theory in their lives to enhance personal well-being and relationships.

Key Takeaways:

• Empowerment Through Acceptance: By letting go of the need to control others and focusing on personal actions, individuals can achieve greater mental health and relational harmony.
• Regulation and Ethical AI Use: The necessity for stringent regulations to govern AI's role in sensitive sectors like mental health care to prevent misuse and protect consumers.
• Healthy Digital Habits: Implementing conscious strategies to manage screen time and reduce dependency on digital devices for improved mental health and familial relationships.
• Building Emotional Resilience: Encouraging men to develop deeper emotional connections and reducing the emotional burden on women in relationships through expanded social networks.

Final Quote:

"Let them complain in the comments... You can't control what other people think. Good thing."
— Kara Swisher (59:49)

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For More Information: Submit your questions about business, tech, or any topic of interest at nymag.com/pivot or call 855-51-Pivot.

Subscribe and Follow: Stay updated by subscribing to Pivot on your favorite podcast platform and following their YouTube channel for more insightful discussions.

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Produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Engineered by Ernie Enderdot. Executive Producer: Nishat Kurwa (Vox Media Podcast Network).

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from ServiceNow who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work. The work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of the business. It, hr, customer service and more. And that means your people can focus on the work they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] AI data-agents support for the show comes from Chevrolet. Life has a way of dropping a lot of tough questions along your path. But when it comes to going electric, the Chevy Equinox EV is a no brainer. Loaded with advanced tech like a massive 17 inch diagonal center touchscreen, Equinox EV will help keep you connected. Plus, with bold athletic styling and starting at $34,995, you you'll get great looks and a great value. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment dealer sets final price.

[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

Portfolio on one platform?

[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

Uh huh. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Welcome back to.

[Mel Robbins]

Scott Free August.

[Kara Swisher]

As Scott continues his august adventures, I'm joined by another incredible co host, Mel Robbins. Mel is an award winning podcast host and New York Times bestselling author and an expert in mindset, behavioral change and life improvement. Welcome Mel.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, thank you for having me.

[Kara Swisher]

I am so thrilled to have you. We couldn't be more opposite, which is why I want you here. So wait a minute.

[Mel Robbins]

What do you mean we couldn't be more opposite.

[Kara Swisher]

We were just talking about like vibrating all the time. I'm a constant vibrator. Well, hold on.

[Mel Robbins]

Somebody's gonna take this. Yes, here we go.

[Kara Swisher]

That's my hope. That's my great hope, social media wise. But talk a little bit about what you're doing. Cause you earlier today, someone from CNN was here who you work for cnn.

[Mel Robbins]

So before I got into doing what I am doing, I had a really cool opportunity to be one of the legal analysts and commentators for cnn. Right. And I did that for almost three and a half years. Right. And it was an incredible lawyer.

[Kara Swisher]

Meaning.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, well, I was a public defender here in Manhattan early days of my career and had about 19 different job changes. You know, I'm kind of one of these people that I learn everything I talk about the hard way. I ended up at cnn. It was an incredible, incredible job. Very intellectually stimulating. It was a real honor to have the opportunity to try to take these massive, in particular social justice cases and be able to talk about them in a three to six minute segment and try to distill down some of the biggest themes and the important takeaways. And so that's what I did years and years ago. I left CNN in about 2014, I.

[Kara Swisher]

Think it was, and the rest is history. Because you've become one of successful podcasters around, you are number one too often at the very top. What do you attribute that to? Cause this is a shift, public defender, CNN legal analyst to this.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, when I got involved in podcasting, I had been wanting to do something that was a longer form conversation I had been after, you know, after cnn, what ended up happening is I had created this motivational hack called the five second rule. Not the one where you drop food on the floor, bring it up in five seconds, which I do all the time. Yeah, blow the dog hair off, we're good to go. This is this concept that there's a big difference between thinking and doing. And there's this five second window of hesitation that defines your whole life. The moment you stop and consider how you feel about doing something within five seconds, if you don't do it, your kind of automatic thinking loops will take over. So for example, when the alarm goes off in the morning, you know that you're supposed to get out. You're the one who set the alarm. And yet instead of just rolling out of bed, what do we do? We stop and we think, how do I feel about getting out of bed? And if you're stressed or anxious or depressed, which I was When I created this little hack, if you stop and think, it's cold, it's dark, I don't feel like it, my life's a nightmare, I hate my spouse. Like, I'm just gonna go back to sleep. You will go back to sleep. If you move within five seconds, everything changes. See, there's this huge mistake that people make. I made this forever thinking that at some point, I'll feel like doing what I need to do.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And the fact is, motivation is complete garbage. You will never feel like doing the things that you need to do. You need to develop this skill. Everybody does. To force yourself to take action before you feel ready.

[Kara Swisher]

I see.

[Mel Robbins]

And so the five second rule is a simple concept. You just count backwards. The moment you feel hesitation, kick in. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And then you move. And you can use this to shortcut this default that a lot of us have, which is a bias toward overthinking the smallest things that we need to do.

[Kara Swisher]

True. I, of course, completely went back to sleep this morning after the alarm went off. And I'm like, who set that alarm? Who did that last night in my empty hotel room? It's such a shift in what you're doing. And we're gonna talk a lot of things today, including OpenAI trying to create what they call healthy use of ChatGPT. I want to. Okay, sure. And you're going to share some advice on news fatigue. But before, let's talk about your latest book, the Let them theory. Because you are a podcaster. This book is an enormous success. Let Them is everywhere.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, and the reason I joking with you, in a text, I said, I'm a don't Let them kind of gal, which is kind of interesting. But this book is running up the charts. Oprah called it a game changer and a life changer. Lovely hugs. By the way, at whatever greenhouse she's doing her podcast in, people are getting Let Them tattoos. I do. I have chaos. Chaos and entropy and syntropy on my tattoos, which is very different. That everything is on its way to destruction or creation. Talk about. For anyone who hasn't heard it, tell them what the Let Them theory is all about.

[Mel Robbins]

Sure.

[Kara Swisher]

And how you came up with them.

[Mel Robbins]

Sure. So the Let Them theory is a very simple concept. Two simple words. That's how you begin. Let Them will help you live your life completely differently. It is a philosophy that's all about control and power. What is in your control, what is not in your control. And the fact is that most of us spend way too Much of our time and energy burning through things that are beyond your control. And the number one thing that is outside of your control at all times is other people. What they think, what they do, what they say, how they feel, what they believe. And I never realized the extent to which I was living my life, navigating my day to day decisions based on other people's moods, their expectations, trying to get them things. Yeah, everybody does. Everybody does. Because we have a fundamental need to feel in control. It's a survival mechanism that's not going away. But we make a mistake of thinking that the way to feel safer or more in control in your own life is to micromanage change and control other people. So if you were doing something that worried me or frustrated me, or made me feel nervous about something or hurt, instead of crossing the line and trying to force you to change, which is what I did forever with my kids, with my husband, with the world around me, with my boss. There's a simpler way to live your life. Just say, let them. Let them think what they're gonna think. Let them do what they're gonna do. Let them be who they're gonna be. Let them feel what they're gonna feel, because I know that I can't control another human being. And then you go to step two of the theory, which is you say, let me, let me is where you take your power back. And instead of giving it to other people and outside forces, which only is gonna stress you out, by the way, let me remind myself at any moment, there's only three things I can control. I can control what I think, I can control what I do or don't do, and I can control how I respond to the feelings that are gonna automatically rise up. That's all you've got. And one of the reasons why this has spread around the world and it's more than it really has. Oh, no. It's six million copies in six and a half months. It's the single most successful nonfiction book launch in history. The reason why it is so successful is a couple reasons. Number one, we are living in a moment of unprecedented change. The average person. This is research from Dr. Aditi Nurokar from Harvard Medical School. She is one of the world's leading experts in stress as a medical condition. Not stress like I feel stressed, but the actual physiology of being stressed.

[Kara Swisher]

Inflammation, cortisol.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, the fact that it's actually bigger than that. This is, again, Dr. Nurakar's research. What happens when you're, quote, stressed is that you switch gears in your brain and the amygdala takes over.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Mel Robbins]

And that means that your prefrontal cortex is not able to function in its full capacity, which means strategic thinking out the window, emotional regulation out the window. And this is kind of the perfect place to start for all the topics you want to talk about today, because I think we tend to laser down onto the things that are frustrating us or scaring us without zooming out and seeing the bigger picture. According to her research, in the United States, 80% of human beings walking around are in a chronic state of stress.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they are. And which leads to health outcomes.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, not even health. Like, it leads to the inability to think critically, the inability to regulate your emotions. Right. And so you are dealing nine times out of 10 or eight times out of 10 rather, with somebody who is not fully able to function.

[Kara Swisher]

So basically, what you're saying is the constant id, we become the ID versus superego or ego.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, those are big, fancy words. And this is the other reason why the let them theory is spread around the world. It's super simple. Everybody can say the words, let them. And the second you say let them. And this brings me to the third reason why this is so incredibly powerful is this is not a new idea.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

Like, the reason why this is so successful is because I'm reminding you of what you already know to be true. If you're a fan of stoicism, the let them theory is a modern version of that tool. If you're a fan of radical acceptance or detachment theory, let them is practicing detachment. When you say let me, you're reclaiming control over the system because they have to go together. You're talking, oh, they have to go together.

[Kara Swisher]

So I joke about it. Don't let them is kind of my theory. My whole career is built on. Oh, no, no, no, no. You may not joke.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, that's the let me part. Is it? Well, yeah, because what's like. Because, like, let's just take politics, for example. All this stuff that we're upset about is already happening.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And so any of the. Ah. That you do that only stresses you out, by the way, which only compromises your ability to stay calm, confident, focused, and strategic. Because it's not about that out there. The power in your life is your response to it. This is Viktor Frankl's man search for meaning. Another reference to why this is so powerful. I am giving you a tool, Let them. And let me. To apply ancient philosophy, therapeutic modalities, the serenity prayer. In a moment, like, I'VE read every book on stoicism. I never knew how the hell to apply it. When I was all stressed out because I was already hijacked by my amygdala, I was already emotionally reactive. So when I say let them, I drop down a boundary. Like, here's a simple way to use it. Everybody starts using it for day to day stress because let's face it, people are really fucking annoying.

[Kara Swisher]

They are.

[Mel Robbins]

Whether it's a slow walker, close talker, like people in traffic, the long ass.

[Kara Swisher]

Man on train yesterday doing a deal.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. You're just like, oh my God. But here's the thing. Why on earth would you give your two most important resources, which is your time and your energy, to all these idiots walking around that are disrespectful, rude and annoying? Don't do it. Don't do it. Your time and energy is so much more valuable. So when you say let them, what you're doing is you're reminding yourself that whatever is triggering you right now is not deserving of your time and energy. And then when you say let me, you remind yourself that no matter what's going on around you, there are still simple things you can do in response to it that help you stay in the.

[Kara Swisher]

That's not the idea. Because some people who could be critical is like, you don't want to let. And we're not talking about politics here, but Donald Trump's a perfect. You don't want to let the government change, like take away rights from people.

[Mel Robbins]

You don't want to let them.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely not. That's not what you're saying here. Absolutely not. That isn't. Well, they're going to cut funds for npr. Let them.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, here's the thing. They just did.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they did.

[Mel Robbins]

So, like, let them is radical acceptance of what's happening instead of gaslighting yourself.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

Let me.

[Kara Swisher]

But you're not saying let them. It's a good thing.

[Mel Robbins]

No, I'm saying let them forces you to accept the facts that you're dealing with. And let me is how you cue yourself to take back power. Correct? Right. Okay. And if you allow all of the upset and there's a lot of upsetting things going on and terrifying things that are going on in the world right now. But if you allow what's happening or has already happened to stress you out to a point where you are frozen.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct.

[Mel Robbins]

Or you are anxious or you are now spiraling in depression, now you have no power to respond in a way either with yourself and your own stress and Mental health, or within your family, or within your community, or within your state, or within the nation at large. You have so much more power than you realize. But you don't understand that because like me, you have been giving it away without knowing it.

[Kara Swisher]

So you're talking about in let them, you're giving away power versus not being passive, right? It's not a word.

[Mel Robbins]

Let them is not passive.

[Kara Swisher]

Because one of the things when you're doing the idea of let them, I often get in arguments when people when they're talking about Donald Trump and they go into the doom call, I was like, what are you gonna do about it? Like, stop. Some people, like, can you believe Donald Trump did blank, for example?

[Mel Robbins]

He's the answer for me is always, yes, yes, I do.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I do. Because he's a racist, he's homophobic, he's anti trans. Yes, I do believe it. Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

Like, for me, I'm just surprised anybody's surprised by it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, exactly. Which they constantly are. That's one of his magic. I have to say, when.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, this is also classic with narcissism, is that when you're dealing with somebody that has a personality style that is narcissistic, the people around that person constantly give that behavior power by trying to explain it. Instead, let them reveal who they are and stop gaslighting yourself into believing this person's ever gonna change.

[Kara Swisher]

I actually did use at first, I was like, I'm not gonna let. I have a difficult relationship with my mom and I used your let them. Cause I always get pulled into something and I have to say, it's working.

[Mel Robbins]

And then, well, you know why it's working?

[Kara Swisher]

Oddly working.

[Mel Robbins]

I'll tell you why it's working, Kara. And here's the reason why, is because my favorite expert on the narcissistic personality style is Dr. Ramani Diversola. Okay. And Dr. Rahmani basically says that one of the most damaging things that we can do when we have a very challenging personality, especially with people that are closer to us. Cause it's easy on the Internet to, you know, oh, cut him out of your life. Most of us have somebody challenging in our life, and we're not just gonna cut them out of our life. We wanna figure out how to deal with them. Whether it's an ex or it is a parent or it's a child that's acting out or a boss or whatever. That one of the most dangerous things you can do is hope that the person's gonna change.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

If you say let them, let their behavior be the truth of who this person is. You are forcing yourself to recognize who this person is. And now let me decide. How much time do they get, how much energy do they get of mine. Let me stop wishing they would change and let me just actually learn how to accept who this person is and who they aren't. And stop gaslighting myself with some fantasy about who they may become.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't think people should have a role in trying to change people though?

[Mel Robbins]

The idea, I think that you're only.

[Kara Swisher]

One, especially people you care about. I'm not talking about the guy on the train.

[Mel Robbins]

I just go around it. Well, here's the thing. I'm super pragmatic. So I don't wanna waste my time. Cause I've wasted 50 years of my life doing dumb shit that didn't work. And then causing myself stress and hurt and frustration and causing other people stress and hurt and frust. Desire to change other people typically comes from a place of love. Like we want the best for our kids, we want the best for our families. We want to get along with everybody. That's a wonderful thing. But what I realized in doing the research for this book, because there are 57 world renowned experts that are cited in this book. 18 page bibliography and the let them theory over and over. Let them. And let me helps you access the advice and the research that everybody says and what works. So let's take a look at this dynamic of wanting to change other people. You're always gonna wanna change other people. That's a good thing. But let's go about it and be very smart about it. Because here's the thing. We all have a fundamental need to be in control of our lives, our decisions, our timelines, what's gonna happen at work and when you start to worry about like for example, your kid. So I was really world. I'll use an example from my own Life. I have three kids, 26, 24. And our son is 20. And our son Oakley is this wonderful like just casserole of a kid of things. He had major dyslexia and ADHD and dysgraphia. And he bounced from the public to the school for language based learning. And he hated school and didn't have a lot of friends. And as a parent I was so tied in knots and worried about this kid. And so he would like a lot of kids, especially young men. I would hear him upstairs playing video games out of school late. And he wasn't doing well in school at the time and kind of checked out. And I would go marching up the stairs. Cause I'm worried about him and I want him to be motivated and I want him to thrive.

[Kara Swisher]

He marched just like that?

[Mel Robbins]

Oh yeah, just my arms pumped and stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp. That's why they wear headphones, because they know you're going to do it. Swing open the door. Hey, you need to get off. The first of all, do I really think he's an idiot? Of course your kid knows that playing video games is not going to help the problem that he's feeling at school. Do you want to know the hardest working kid in school? It's not the kid getting as, it's the kid that's failing. Do you know how hard it is to sit in a classroom and not be able to do what's being asked of you? And so all he thinks about is that. And now I go in and march in like Miss Bossy with all the answers, telling him what to do. Kind of like we do with our spouses. You know, you really should exercise. Oh, thanks a lot. You don't think I thought about taking a walk? Like, you know, fuck you. And so what happens is our desire to change people because we want them to thrive and we want the best for them. The second I tell you what to do, I bump up against your need to control yourself. So instead of motivating you, you know what I just did? I actually created the standoff.

[Kara Swisher]

You're right.

[Mel Robbins]

No, this is my favorite person on this. There's two experts that you should talk to. One is, he goes by Dr. K, the healthy gamer. He Harvard trained psychiatrist that is a specialist in gaming addiction. And now his entire business is training other therapists. And basically the entire thing about motivation is we are working against the circuitry.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, absolutely. Especially with some of this addictive stuff.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. That people only change when they're ready to change for themselves. I know we say, sure, but then we're like, buddy, how about a trainer? Hey, maybe you shouldn't eat that second slice of bread. Or maybe you shouldn't have the fourth beer. And they're like, fuck you, I'm gonna have that. Don't tell me what to do. And so we create these standoffs instead of using the research to actually sneakily influence them and make them think it's their idea by having them do it. Yeah, well, here's what you're gonna do. So another second expert that I love is Dr. Stuart Avlon. He's at Mass General, Brigham, Harvard Medical School professor. He also is the founder of Think Kids So he's been a child psychologist for 30 years. His entire body of work says that let's just assume everybody in life wants to thrive. Let's assume everybody wants to be happy and healthy. When somebody is challenging or somebody is like not thriving in life, we jump in and think it's a problem of willpower. He doesn't believe that. He believes it's an issue of skill and it's an issue of discouragement. And I believe this too. I believe that the single biggest thing that stands in people's way in today's world is discouragement and lack and hope. This belief that, okay, well, that works for Kara, but doesn't work for me.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

You know, that's nice for that person, but that's never gonna work for me. Because you can have all the advice in the world and we're gonna get to AI and chat. The advice is there, right? But if you believe it's not gonna work for you, you're never going to actually do it. And so the thing that you're battling in a kid that's not motivated or a person in your life that's not losing the weight or not getting the help that they need is that they actually believe deep down somewhere that's not gonna work for them.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

And at some point, the only way that they're gonna change is they're gonna have to get to a point where staying where they are is actually harder than doing the very difficult work that it takes to change.

[Kara Swisher]

I get your point too. Are there any surprising use cases you've heard from others with this? You just discussed your son, how you use it in your day to day life. Is there a surprising case and is there one where you should not use let them?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, again, you need to. I don't know of a single case where you shouldn't use let them because there's always the let me part. Like, for example, if you're in a situation where you have a friend that's wasted and they're like, and they're grabbing their keys, you're not gonna just let them walk out the door, right? But they're already grabbing their keys. You gotta go to the let me part. Let me step in, let me take the keys, let me do the thing that is going to prevent them from doing something destructive right now. But here's the problem. Most people don't do that in front of you, right? Most people that are struggling are really good at hiding it because they already feel a deep sense of shame about it. And so the approach That I think is the use case that's incredible, comes from Dr. Stuart Ablon. And it's the let them. Which is let somebody just be where they are, let them be who they are, let them struggle. And let me take a different approach. And that approach is with them, not at them. And so the approach is simple. You literally take the stance. I break it down into something I call the ABC loop. And the ABC loop is just a three part conversation. The first thing you're gonna do with anybody that's struggling in your life, and this is the most surprising use case, it works like a charm, is you apologize. You apologize to the person for assuming you know what's going on and for badgering them and pressuring them. And so with, you know, instance, with my son, hey, buddy, I'm really sorry. Must be completely annoying to have me constantly nagging you. I'm really sorry about that. And first of all, if it's a kid, they're gonna be like, ooh, what?

[Kara Swisher]

They're waiting for the.

[Mel Robbins]

And by the way, the best place to have this conversation is a car. Cause they're trapped. You don't have to look at each other. There's something about the forward ambulation of being in a moving vehicle that sort.

[Kara Swisher]

Of opens up my kids.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And so you apologize. And then what you're going to do is you're going to ask, this is the. A open ended question. I've never even asked you. How do you feel about how school's going? How do you feel about how you're doing? And even if they're like the experts say, it doesn't matter what they say.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

Because the internal friction that you're talking.

[Kara Swisher]

About, it's not you telling them what you think about how they're doing.

[Mel Robbins]

They know how they're doing. Human beings aren't idiots. They know when they're not thriving. But we don't stop and ask them how they feel about it. And so even being asked to consider how do I feel about my health right now? How do I feel about the fact that my mother's dying? How do I feel about the fact that I might lose my job to AI? It's stirring up the friction that most of us repress. And then what do you do? That's all you have gotta do. We have C, we just have back off. Well, B is back off. B is back off. Yeah, back off. You gotta back off and you've got to wait. And then C is the hard part. You gotta model the change.

[Kara Swisher]

So is. But let Me is a version of don't let them in. A weird. It's a different version.

[Mel Robbins]

See, I want you to be sneaky. I don't want you to try to change people because it's gonna backfire. I want you to use your influence, because I'll give you an example that'll make a lot of sense. Let's say you and I are at work, and every single day around lunch, you close your laptop, you get up, you walk outside, you go for a walk, you come back 30 minutes later, you just look happy, refreshed, sit back down, you're like, tap, tap. Now, meanwhile, I'm jamming the tuna sandwich down my throat and I'm working through lunch. You never once asked me to go for a walk. About a month after watching you do this, something interesting's gonna happen. This is research, by the way, from Dr. Tali Sharat. She studies the science of influence. About a month after watching you do this, all of a sudden, one day I'm gonna close my laptop and go for a walk. And you wanna know something weird? I'm gonna think it's my idea, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

But you and the power of your example and influence is the thing that actually influenced me in changing my own behavior. Cause you saw it.

[Kara Swisher]

You saw it. Pattern.

[Mel Robbins]

And I saw you enjoying it. And I sat with the fact that every day at lunch, I sit there and make a different decision. And I know deep down it's a bad decision. Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

You still can invite someone if.

[Mel Robbins]

Correct. You can. Yeah, you can. No pressure. Hey, you wanna go for a walk? And if they don't, they're like, okay, you're missing out. Don't do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, fuck you. I got work to do. Like, see what I'm saying? And so, again, people change when they're ready to change. And people only change for themselves. And Dr. K, who I also love, basically said the basic wiring of the human brain is we default and move towards what's easy and we reject what feels difficult. And that's why, back to my original point, you have to develop a skill for yourself where you're not sitting around waiting for it to feel easy, to do the thing where you actually understand it's never going to feel easy.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? Right.

[Mel Robbins]

5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I'm gonna do the thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Certain people, it's very easy to let them. Other people, it's not so hard. That's the difficulty. Like my son, my oldest son, I do a version of that, I guess. Like, how do you feel? And. Sounds good. I really trust you. I often say I really trust your instinct on lots of things.

[Mel Robbins]

You're a great mom.

[Kara Swisher]

Not all the time, but.

[Mel Robbins]

No, let me tell you why that's.

[Kara Swisher]

It works on that. But other people. It doesn't work with my mom, I have to say. Well.

[Mel Robbins]

Cause she's got a narcissistic personality style, Right? Exactly. So she's gonna do what she's ever gonna do.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

But you've gotta let her be who she is. Your relationship will change with her profoundly. And I'm glad it's working for you because it's gonna help you access detachment theory and radical acceptance.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that's where I have to go to.

[Mel Robbins]

You do. She is never gonna change.

[Kara Swisher]

60 years in, she's never.

[Mel Robbins]

I have.

[Kara Swisher]

Remember Joe Diddy and she said, I'm in a war with my mother that continues forever. This quiet war that goes on and.

[Mel Robbins]

On because you wish it was different. Yes. And that's what Dr. Rahmani Diversalis says. Wishing somebody else is different is the source of your suffering in a relationship.

[Kara Swisher]

That's sort of Buddhism, right?

[Mel Robbins]

It is. Well, again, the let them theory is also radical. It's also the serenity prayer.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

It is Buddhism.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And so you got a lot of stuff in there.

[Kara Swisher]

You got stoicism, you've got a lot of.

[Mel Robbins]

Because it all traces back to the fundamental truth that there's only three things you can control in life. It's what you think about what's happening. It's what you do or don't do in response. And with our parents or the people in our life that are very challenging. What you don't do is almost more important than what you do do. And it's what you do in response to those emotions, like you may always. And lots of us will feel that wave of grief and disappointment because a person can't be who we want them to be and who we maybe deserve to have them be. And those feelings are extremely valid and important.

[Kara Swisher]

I think you can change it.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. But what you do with it is what matters more. Because that's where your power is. And ultimately, as you start to use this. And again, you'll start to use it. Let them. The moment you feel frustrated about anything. And you'll notice it's 99% of the time about other people's behavior. And you say, let them. Your shoulders drop. Because you're putting a boundary up between yourself and the world where normally you'd allow the outside world and other people to impact you.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. It does make a lot of sense I'm still not gonna let the tech Bros do it. Cause they're, you know. You know the word tech bro? Technically broken.

[Mel Robbins]

But hold on. You don't have a choice.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct. But you have a choice of what to do about it. You're right. You're the second part. Oh, you're so tricky. All right, Mel, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about people turning to AI for mental health advice. Support for this show comes from Upway. If you're stuck in traffic again or frustrated with rising gas prices, there's a better way to get around. Commuting by E bike isn't just great for your health. It can be a game changer for your wallet and your time. Here's a tip. Head over to Upway Co to find E bikes from top tier brands like Specialized, Cannondale and avant up to 60% off retail. Whether you're into mountain bikes for weekend adventures or fast city E bikes for your daily commute, Upway has you covered. You can join their community of fans and ride with confidence knowing that they've got your back every step of the way. So head over to Upway Co and get a hundred and fifty dollars off your first E bike purchase of a thousand dollars or more with a code pivot150. That's upway code pivot 150. You can thank me later. Support for Pivot comes from LinkedIn. From talking about sports, discussing the latest movies, everyone is looking for a real connection to the people around them. But it's not just person to person. It's the same connection that's needed in business. And it can be the hardest part about B2B marketing. Finding the right people, making the right connections. But instead of spending hours and hours scavenging social media feeds, you can just tap LinkedIn ads to reach the right professionals. According to LinkedIn, they have grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills and company revenue, giving you all the professionals you need to reach in one place. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can can try it for yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com pivotpod that's LinkedIn.com pivotpod Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Mel Robbins]

It's my job to make sure our.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Mel Robbins]

Create standout content quickly and easily.

[Kara Swisher]

That's why I decided to use Adobe Express. From business cards to social media, the templates in Adobe Express keep our team.

[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Mel Robbins]

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[Kara Swisher]

Mel, we're back. Illinois just became the first state to regulate the use of AI in mental health care. The new law bans AI from acting as a standalone therapist and sets guardrails of how mental health professionals can use AI to support care. Meanwhile, OpenAI is updating ChatGPT to better detect emotional distress. The company says it's GPT4O fell short in recognizing signs of delusion and emotional dependency in some cases. You think the new behavior to handle what OpenAI calls high stakes personal decisions is rolling out soon. Talk a little bit about this cause a lot of people are relying on a ton of people.

[Mel Robbins]

A lot of people.

[Kara Swisher]

Enough.

[Mel Robbins]

Now hold on a second. There's actually a recent report from Harvard Business that says that since 2024 to 2025 this is literally it just came out a couple months ago that the single top use case for generative AI in is therapy and companionship. And I just want everybody to sit with that right now. Millions. Well there's 700 million people that are using generative AI every week. The top use case Harvard Business School report and this is a major change from 2024 is for which was usually just I wanna get generating ideas generating ideas. So 2024 was generating ideas specific search it was therapy and companionship but now it's therapy and companionship number and so it is happening and the first thing I want to say is I really want to applaud what's happening in Illinois because one of the things that is terrifying about what's happening with AI and there's lots of wonderful things that are happening but let's just talk about the terrifying thing that's happening. There's zero regulation. Zero and if we have a situation where people are turning to AI in order to get advice, it's already happening. And, and the problem, because there is good stuff here, I brought a bunch of studies to talk about here and I want to zoom out and talk about, well, why is this happening?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

The reason why people are turning toward AI is because we are, first of all, as we've already discussed, living in an unprecedented moment of change and overwhelm and insecurity.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Information flood versus information desert, which existed before.

[Mel Robbins]

And what we have is also combine that with a medical fact. Dr. Aditi Nurakar Harvard Medical School 80% of people in the United States are living in a state of chronic stress. Meaning you're in fight or flight.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

Meaning constantly. Constantly. And so if you're finding, as you're listening right now, that you're constantly overthinking, you're procrastinating more, you feel a little bit more anxious, you're having trouble thinking.

[Kara Swisher]

And you have the tools to help you do that. Doom scrolling or Constant News as well. Yes, we'll talk about that in a second.

[Mel Robbins]

Your body won't reset without you resetting your stress response. And so you have this backdrop where you've got people in a state where they need support. And in the United States alone, for every 1600 people that have depression or anxiety, there's only one mental health professional and that's in the United States. There are some places in the world where for every 300,000 people that have depression, there's one. And so there is a huge need.

[Kara Swisher]

But let's talk about also people aren't connecting with their own close people too.

[Mel Robbins]

They don't have that at work or wherever. Yes. And so I think it's important to just say that we need to look at the fact that people are searching for answers. And I personally believe that the fact that somebody is searching for answers is a good thing. Now let's talk about where AI can support and where AI is very, very problematic. Because I think the single biggest issue that we're facing when it comes to generative AI is there's zero regulation. And we're living in a world, especially in the United States, where we now have a government that's more focused on profit than people. People. We have business regulation, getting gutted. In fact, you've got the backdrop of Illinois passing this law, which I think it's a fabulous thing. But here's my concern. It seems like the law is focused primarily on AI products that are marketed as therapy. My concern is the Average person is just going right there and doing a product.

[Kara Swisher]

And it's also OpenAI is still the largest. And now they are trying to do things like sending out reminders for people to take a break when they've been chatting with the bot. But they also benefit from people just as any other, just as Facebook does and others.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, here's my concern. Here's my concern. My concern is that against the backdrop of Illinois doing something incredibly positive, because this is what has to happen. What has to happen is we've gotta wake the hell up and recognize that this thing is so out of control already and we can dig into other areas and examples that I can give you from my own life in terms of where this is spinning out of control. But you've gotta understand that this is against a backdrop where the Trump administration just revealed an AI plan outlining a 10 year moratorium on states being able to regulate this.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they tried.

[Mel Robbins]

And so you have platforms that are unregulated, you have businesses just pumping out these new businesses without regulation, and they are preying on people who need actual help.

[Kara Swisher]

So they're meeting a need, which is what they're very good at. They're identifying and meeting a need. And one of the things for people, which I talk about all the time, we talk about this on Pivot constantly. The last of regulation in general, in tech and in AI in particular, they don't have. I always, like when I'm in a group of people, I say, put your hand up, how much regulation you think there is in AI. And people go, 100 rules. 100. And I go, there's zero.

[Mel Robbins]

I'm going to give you some examples in a minute. But I want to unpack this a little bit further because one of the reasons why AI is an incomplete solution for a very big problem that we have in society. So let's just all agree that we are at a moment in time where people getting support for mental health issues. And when I use the word mental health, I'm not just talking about people struggling. Mental health includes learning how to be happy, learning how to manage your stress, learning how to be more resilient, learning how to have better relationships. And so it's a positive thing and people are looking for help with it, which is a positive thing. Now here's how I want everybody to think about AI. AI. I think about it like autocorrect, you know, how you like are typing and then it tries and you're like, well, that's not what I wanted to say. AI is filling in the blank, guessing based on the information you're feeding it and the information that's out there. And the problem when it comes to therapy and, you know, there's some really, really good research on this. There was a study that was done at Stanford that I have in front of me. This is the Stanford Institute for Human Centered AI, where they first looked at. Yeah, where they first looked at. What does it mean to be a great human therapist? You gotta be able to treat patients equally. You gotta show empathy, not stigmatize mental health concerns, not enable suicidal thoughts or delusions and challenge a patient's thinking. Here's the problem with AI. AI tends to feed you validation, and it gives you answers, not options. And based on the prompts that people give, it's only searching the language, but it's taking no other cues like emotion, tone of voice, stress levels, and responses that you can see past history. Unless somebody actually gives you that, it's not taking any of that into consideration. And so I want to talk about something that's positive before we kind of jump into the fact that what's needed here is regulation. There was a study from my alma mater, Dartmouth, that came out literally just a couple months ago. It was published in March. And Dartmouth researchers conducted the first ever clinical trial of generative AI powered therapy. And they found, and this is important, that people that were diagnosed with depression experienced a 51% average reduction in symptoms using generative AI and a therapeutic model. All right, okay. So leading to clinically significant improvements in mood and overall well being. If you had generalized anxiety, it reported an average reduction in symptoms of 31%. However, here's the thing that they said the problem is, it's okay if it is supervised by a human being.

[Kara Swisher]

When it's not.

[Mel Robbins]

When it's not. AI is fundamentally not able to work autonomously. And the problem is without regulation. And again, let's applaud the state of Illinois for caring more about the people rather than the unmitigated profits that companies that are using AI are allowed to create that without any kind of regulations. Companies are not gonna do this. Period.

[Kara Swisher]

No, of course not.

[Mel Robbins]

Of course not.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. They didn't fix social media.

[Mel Robbins]

They didn't put safety in place. No. Not only did they not fix it, but when they saw that it was damaging kids mental health, they doubled down on the algorithms. So we've seen this with big Tobacco, we've seen this with social media. Let's not be idiots, okay? Let's let them give us the platitudes and the empty Priorities, probably self cancer, where you're what? Okay, you know, you're here to make profits because you're a public company and you now don't have to regulate a report to anybody. And so let me. This is the part where we have to go, no, no, no, no. We've gotta pressure the people that are paying attention in states where they are.

[Kara Swisher]

So what guardrails would you like to see in folks?

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, I wanna see tremendous regulation.

[Kara Swisher]

You see that as the money they bring to bear. The money they bring to bear is massive. They're standing next to Trump on, on the podium.

[Mel Robbins]

There has to be like, you're the kind of a guardrail. Well, a guardrail, a very good one is what happened in Illinois. That's a very good one because you're now putting a stake in the ground and saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like people matter. And we can't just put something out here that isn't actually helping people and that has oversight. Right. Like this is why we have consumer safety laws. Correct. And yet they don't seem to apply to something that is not being regulated.

[Kara Swisher]

It would apply to a cigarette, it would apply to a chemical. Chemicals that would apply.

[Mel Robbins]

Why? Because people matter.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Mel Robbins]

People matter more than the profits of a company. At least they used to. And so I want to say that there's something very promising, but what they concluded in the study at Dartmouth is that while the results are promising, no generative AI agent is ready to operate fully autonomously in mental health because there is such a very wide range of high risk scenarios that can occur. And so here's another example. I would love to have an X ray done and have it like scanned by AI, but I want a doctor to look at it. After the AI gives you its solutions. That's it. Because one of the things that also can happen is like, AI is fantastic for administrative tasks, for other things, for communicating with people. But when you allow it to operate autonomously now we get into massively dangerous situations.

[Kara Swisher]

And it also tries to be pleasing. It tries to. You don't know what it's going to answer. It's not really.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, because here's the other thing.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not user generated, but it is at the same time.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, and a lot of times the answer is wrong. Like the other day, if you did a search on me, you would see that I drive a Lamborghini and I'm divorced and that I'm also. I've converted to Islam.

[Kara Swisher]

How's that going for you?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, none of it's true. I understand, but that's what people also don't understand. Oh, cut. No pickup truck. And so I think it's important because we've also gotten to this point where you go to it and you think that it's right and what's coming. Everybody is advertising.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely.

[Mel Robbins]

And when it goes to advertising, it means that the longer it keeps you on the platform, then the more money people.

[Kara Swisher]

But that's always been.

[Mel Robbins]

It's true. Many years ago, not even think. But people don't think about it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but Walt Masrug, my partner for many years, for 20 years, nailed it right from the beginning. He said. He called Mark Zuckerberg a rapacious information thief. And.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, let's talk about that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. So we're gonna. I wanna talk about the influx of the information. Influx about it without overwhelming you. First of all, how do you, when you use generative AI or deal with the influx of news that overwhelms you, some of which is true.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't deal with an influx of news.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't.

[Mel Robbins]

What do you do? Well, I'll tell you why. Because I. Understanding.

[Kara Swisher]

But you want to stay informed without feeling overwhelmed.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, of course. So this is a very simple thing. Like think about input versus output and. And what are you allowing into your mind? It's that simple. Do you trust the voices you're talking? It's just. Well, I'm talking about information.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. But it's like food, like twinky. Twinkie.

[Mel Robbins]

Twinkie, yes. So are you allowed if. Garbage in, garbage out, which is a computer term. Yes. And so if you are serious about your stress and your peace and your success in life and your health, you will get very serious about what you allow in to your mind. You have control, a lot more control.

[Kara Swisher]

Than you believe, though some might argue some of it's addictive. But. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, it is. It is. Absolutely. So you know, cocaine's addictive. I don't sleep next to an eight ball. You don't?

[Kara Swisher]

Not in your Lamborghini.

[Mel Robbins]

No, no. And I'm kind of, you know, I'm being like punchy about this, but like, stop blaming the phone and actually recognize that the phone is a tool. What's on it is addictive. But if you know it's addictive, then adjust your behavior so that you don't become the tool. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

So when you. How do you stay informed though, and not check out? Because one of the things is just being completely passive, especially. And the fact that doom scrolling is rather enjoyable in some fashion.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, that's why we do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

You know what's interesting about doom scrolling? Is it actually, you know, the research is very interesting around this is that it is a lot like pulling a slot machine. There's a very like kind of seductive trance like thing of just pulling that slot machine. And that's also why we do it. Another reason why we do it is because all day long we feel like our time and energy has been hijacked by work, by other people's drama, by the stress of life, by the headlines that when you get home and you plop on the couch, there's almost like this fuck you experience that you have and you're like, I'm just gonna take back my life by spending three hours doing nothing. We all do it. And so understanding that and that you're gonna fall into that trap every once in a while, which, by the way, when you're also stressed, you tend to do, oh, way more. The research is very clear. Lots of dopamine. That when you're very stressed out or even remotely stressed out, that you are way more susceptible to these cheap dopamine hits. And yes, the phone, not the phone itself, but the stuff on the phone is designed to keep you on it because the longer that you give your attention to it, the more money people.

[Kara Swisher]

Make and the more it gives you things you had. Tristan Harris has talked about this, but.

[Mel Robbins]

So the thing I want to just say though, is you have more power than you think.

[Kara Swisher]

So give people practices because they don't think they do. Because there is the element of addiction is massive here.

[Mel Robbins]

Much more.

[Kara Swisher]

And one of the things I always say is, one, it's addictive. Two, you need it for work.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. And stop blaming work for the reason why. It's.

[Kara Swisher]

I get it, but it's hard not to be digital. It's impossible.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I'm not saying don't be a monk and live in the mountains. What I'm saying is develop some fucking boundaries. So talk about, here's a great way to. The next time you're standing in line, don't reach for your phone.

[Kara Swisher]

Difficult.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. Don't reach for your phone. Three lousy minutes. Don't reach for your phone. Feel the tension. Don't reach for your phone.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you see that? There was an article in Atlantic thing, things we did before the Internet. And someone was. I read it and then a lot of people were commenting and said, what did you do? I said, everything. We did everything. Like, I don't know, but we did. Like, it was fine, you know, but.

[Mel Robbins]

It starts with you like, literally stand in line. 5, 4, 3, 2. And don't reach for your phone. And as people start pissing, you let them. And let me just stand here and take a deep breath and just be in this moment. Boredom.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what you're talking about.

[Mel Robbins]

Or presence. Like, presence. And just create a pocket between you and this lie you're telling yourself that you need to be constantly attached to everything.

[Kara Swisher]

No music.

[Mel Robbins]

No, fine, if you wanna listen to music, but I just. Fine, if you're listening to a podcast. But if you're reflexively, mindlessly reaching for your phone, train yourself not to. Here's another one. Another one to do is when I am done working, this has changed my life. Cause I used to be guilty of. I'd come downstairs. You have four kids. I have three kids. I would literally be on my phone for work or on my. And then I would shut it down. And now I'm ready. And then everybody else is on their phones. Now I'm yelling at everybody else to get off their phones. It starts with you. This is the dumbest thing. And again, this is the one criticism. One of the criticisms that I get for my work is, well, it's so simple. I'm like, it's not simple to most of us. Okay?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And so is that how they say it? Just like, yeah, kind of like, did.

[Kara Swisher]

You do that again?

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, zoom. Oh, well, Mel Robin's shit is so simple. I'm like, well, only to the intellectuals does it seem simple to the rest of us idiots. Like, this stuff is pretty difficult, but I set up a charging station in the kitchen. This is the dumbest thing. I started to realize that in moments, I want to be in person. I have to have my phone off my person. And I started to train myself to put my phone off my body when I was coming downstairs and it's time for dinner or whatever. And it has changed my life because I reflexively reach for it without realizing it when it's on me. And when it's off you and you start to train yourself again, it goes back to that line in the grocery store where you literally just build this little pocket of peace and presence. Now you're taking that pocket and you're putting that pocket of peace and presence into your life in your home. And what's super cool is there's a lot of research about this. I think it's the University of California, San Francisco, and the University of Vienna did these studies about the parental phone use and its impact on kids.

[Kara Swisher]

Completely. That's the problem yes, because everyone's got the problem.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, the more you're on your phone, the more your kids are and the more you feel that your kids behavior is out of control. Guess what?

[Kara Swisher]

The more yours is 100% correct. I always think the people 30 to 50 are the problem.

[Mel Robbins]

But here's the good news. The good news is it also starts with you. Because the more you have balance and boundaries and the more present you are, the more your kids become. So another great thing that you can do is we have a rule that if we are sitting down for dinner, then it's only dinner, not breakfast. Don't do this at breakfast. It will not work at dinner. No phones, not on your body, not on the table. And we've been doing this for probably 10 years in our household and it has changed our life. There's a lot of research about having just one family dinner a week and how it just impacts your health and your happiness. Certainly. And your connection. Certainly. Almost five days a week. Yeah. And we play this game, high, low. It's a camp game. What's the high of the day? What's the low of the game? And at first your kids went, oh, stupid game.

[Kara Swisher]

Rose and Thorn.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, Rose and Thorn and Bud. Yes. And so you can do those kinds of things. And now what are you doing? You're building a pocket for your family of peace and connection. I also like Dr. Tama Bryant. I don't know if you've had her on the. I think she's the current president of the American Psychiatric Psychology and she's a professor at Pepperdine. She basically had this statement when I interviewed her on our podcast that was like, I really want you to question why you think it's relaxing to watch horror or crime. Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't watch it anymore.

[Mel Robbins]

At.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I don't watch them.

[Mel Robbins]

She's like, that is an indication of trauma.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gilded age. I'm watching Gildage. Anything like silly is the thing. I will watch, by the way, Hunting Wives.

[Mel Robbins]

If you want to watch Hunting Wives. Okay. I'm going to take it. I live in Vermont. I'm going to take a look at it.

[Kara Swisher]

Christian Trumpers that suddenly take a turn toward lesbianism. It's fantastic.

[Mel Robbins]

Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Inexplicably. But it works. It's fantastic. Besides from that, one of the things I interviewed, the guy who's created adolescence, which was this Netflix special, which is a lot of traumatic than I thought, which I thought was. Cause it was so well done. And then the woman who did social studies, which was she Followed kids around, they gave her access to all their social media. And one of the things both of them took away from was the need for the kids. Wanted them removed from their lives. Yes, but the kids were happier without.

[Mel Robbins]

It, which was, well, part of the problem. And here's the thing is that. So our son, for his senior project in high school, did this big six, six month long research study at his public school for the principal, headmaster, person. And conclusively what all the students said is they wish everybody weren't on their phones as much. But the problem is the social pressure. And you know, here's another, like, big switch for me as a parent is that I was super judgy. I'm like, you know what, you guys are all idiots. You're spending all this time online doing dumb stuff on social media. The truth is, like, when you see the phone with your kids, I want you to see their two closest friends because that's what it represents to them. And there's a tremendous amount of social pressure that I didn't understand that our kids are under. And again, because I was like, Ms. Change and Control until I was like, okay, let me be with you. How do you feel about your phone news? What are you actually using it for? Why do you feel the need to sleep with this thing, which I don't allow in our house? And that is another boundary, by the way, is do not sleep with your phone. Massive study came out. University of Southern Florida, recent study looking at 11 to 13 year olds. They did find positives around phone and the ability to connect with friends. Because from a social standpoint and a biological standpoint, that's the age where you start to separate and you want to. 1 out of 411 to 13 year olds are sleeping with the phone in their hand. It is the single most damaging thing that a child could do because of the disruption to sleep and the cascading effect that the disruption of sleep has on learning, on everything, on everything. And I completely had a menopause moment and forgot where I was going with it.

[Kara Swisher]

That's okay, I like it. It's fine.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, oh. So our son Oakley did this.

[Kara Swisher]

Is that your next book, Menopause Moment?

[Mel Robbins]

No, I'm not. I don't know that I'll write another book because. Yeah, yeah, because when you have something this like, this is an unprecedented moment. First of all, I'm so excited that people are excited about a book.

[Kara Swisher]

You're not doing the sequel, Let them Eat Cake or anything like that?

[Mel Robbins]

No, no, because, you know, I'm excited people are interested in reading. No.

[Kara Swisher]

You should do a book called Eat Cake and then put them right next to each other. Eat cake. I'm telling you.

[Mel Robbins]

No. I know. I'm not doing it. You want to know why? I know the paradox of choice, dude.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

I know all that research where you overwhelm people with choices. Nope. That's a cute idea. I'm not doing it. I'm not gonna fall for, like, the tempt to do more. I know that. Like, you.

[Kara Swisher]

You said your piece.

[Mel Robbins]

I said my piece?

[Kara Swisher]

You said your piece.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. I feel like this is my legacy.

[Kara Swisher]

This is. Said your piece. I like. You said your piece. Now you're moving on.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, back to Oakley. So he did this huge project, and basically, conclusively, all the students were like, I'd love to be off this more, but everybody's on it. And so the school ended up adopting a policy where they take the phones at the beginning of class and just dump them in a basket. Because one of the biggest reasons why it's hard for states to legislate this or school districts to do is to. Parents are pains in the ass.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. They are.

[Mel Robbins]

You do not need to be in touch with your children.

[Kara Swisher]

You do not.

[Mel Robbins]

That is a major problem.

[Kara Swisher]

I had a huge argument with a parent about this, and I said, you know what we did before we went to the office?

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Somehow we didn't die. Somehow. And then they brought in school shootings. I'm like, you need to stop.

[Mel Robbins]

You need to stop right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? They don't need to text you during a school shooting.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, by the way, if they're in the middle of a school shooting, they should be running. You want them to be focused on running and hiding, Correct?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. All right, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about mankind keeping.

[Mel Robbins]

Mom and dad. The school supplies you buy me this year will mostly end up in my mouth. Maybe shop low prices for school at Amazon so I don't eat up all your money, just something to chew on. Amazon, spend less, smile more. Mom, Dad, I humbly suggest you save some money and shop Amazon for back to school. It's for my growth, meaning my body's growing at an alarming rate. And clothes you buy me this year will be very small very soon. Plus, the clothes I love today will be out of style tomorrow. But at least your wallet doesn't have to be my fashion victim. If you shop low prices for school at Amazon. Hopefully this is helpful. Amazon, spend less, smile more.

[Kara Swisher]

Organizador de Viajes de expedia. Vivies paratener tu propio expedia. Vivimos para viajar. Mel, we're back. It's time to talk about man keeping. A recent piece in New York Times explores the term coined by postdoctoral fellow at Stanford Angelica Puzio Ferrara. It refers to a growing emotional burden women feel in relationships because the straight men tend only to open up to their wives or girlfriends. It's driven by a topic we tend to talk. A 2021 survey from the Survey center of American Life found that 15% of men said they didn't have any close friends. How would you suggest a woman relationship experiencing man keeping? I have Scott Galloway, who I have to keep.

[Mel Robbins]

Let him.

[Kara Swisher]

Let him. That is the culture.

[Mel Robbins]

We'll go to this next.

[Kara Swisher]

You know why the show's popular. I let him. That is exactly why. So we'll go.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't know. I've seen the comments.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I don't let him.

[Mel Robbins]

Some of your female listeners are getting tired of it.

[Kara Swisher]

Of him. I know that. But then they come up to him.

[Mel Robbins]

I know, but people listen to people that irritate themselves.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, that's exactly right. But they do come up to me. They like the struggle. So I don't read comments ever. Speaking of which. I never do. I don't know why. That's just one of my things.

[Mel Robbins]

I only do it when I'm preparing to come on a show. Oh, do you?

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

So thank you for telling me about it, though. But I'm still gonna not listen to them.

[Mel Robbins]

Let them complain in the comments. Cause you know what? You can't control what other people think.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Mel Robbins]

Good thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I have a lot of people do. Like, how can you put up with it? I'm like, yeah, it's none of your business. It's none of your beeswax. So talk about this man. How do women experience in man keeping and talk about the boundaries around that, because I think dating has definitely, for some reason, become harder. And what advice do you have for men?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I thought that this was a very interesting article because it was very polarizing. All the women were like, finally. Like, somebody's saying something. And all the guys were like, excuse me, this is a very broad voice. You know, like, broad, broad.

[Kara Swisher]

This is reductive.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. Give me a break. So again, I'm one of these people that likes to zoom out and look at the bigger picture. Sure. And there is a major issue going on when it comes to men and their ability to express and understand their emotions. And their ability to connect and their ability to ask for help. And, you know, interestingly, just next week, we have this episode airing with Jason Wilson, this New York Times bestselling author who does incredible work in Detroit with young men and emotional resilience. He's incredible. And. And the episode's like, the reason why boys and men are quietly struggling and how to support them. So let's just take it for fact that men are struggling. And Jason Wilson's analogy is women tend to have a emotional depth or at least awareness that is broader than most men. And there's a bazillion factors, whether it is the socialization of boys, whether it is gender stereotypes, whether it is the framework of a lot of male friendships, which I'm gonna get into, because I think tracks back to the nature of friendship for young boys versus girls, and then what changes when you become an adult. But he basically says women have that 64 crayon box that they're dealing with, and dudes have the eight. And that's an issue, because if you don't know the deeper issue that you're dealing with, you're gonna always reach for anger or sadness. And typically, if somebody's expressing anger or sadness, there's a lot of other deeper emotions going on that people don't know how to talk about.

[Kara Swisher]

Often shame, but go ahead.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, often sh. And if you don't know the difference between the two, guilt is when I did something bad, and shame is when you say I'm bad because of what I did. And so blaming men for this doesn't actually solve the bigger problem. And I think the bigger problem starts a lot earlier. Like, if you look at all the research around friendship, boys tend to create friendships in groups. Girls tend to have closer relationships one on one. Lot of men tend to make their friends based on teams and based on groups that are organized for them. And when they graduate from high school or for college, they end up going to the next team, which is work. And now we're in a situation where we have hydro work. We're in a situation where people are very disconnected. And you have a situation where guys have defaulted to needing groups to be organized in order to feel like you have relationships with other people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. It's so interesting. My daughter has individual friends, and my sons have the.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is really interesting. Here's the boys.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes, exactly. And so when you get into a heterosexual relationship, you are now in a relationship with somebody who is used to connecting one on one. And so you are probably in a lot of Cases, training this person for the first time in some of the deeper nuances of your emotional or inner life. And so I don't think it's a bad thing that you might be in a relationship with somebody that leans on you and that needs your support. But I do think it is a bad thing if you are not effective in getting your person to be more proactive with friendship and to be more proactive outside of the relationship. Oh, hell yes. Hell, yes. And I write about this in the let them theory, and it's a really helpful framework that makes you really think about friendship differently. Most of us don't understand friendship and friendship. Once I explain this to you, you'll be like, oh, my God. So simple, Mel. Yeah, it's so simple. Like, what the fuck? Why are we holding on to. So for your whole life, the conditions for friendship from zero to 20 were there because you were with people your age all the time, and you were doing the same things all the time. And you had the same milestones, celebrated birthdays, graduations, same vacation schedules, all of it. Right when you hit 20, all of a sudden, the great scattering, as I call it, happens, and everybody scatters in different directions. And then the only thing that's holding your old friends together is a group text chain that gets kind of dwindles to less and less and less as people start to jump into their lives. And then we start to say, I have no friends, which is not true. And so let me tell you the three pillars based on research that need to be present to create friendship. And I want people to understand this, because when you see the pillars, you can support people in your. Whether it's young boys or young men or your partner in understanding what it's gonna take to create these relationships that matter. So, number one, you have to have proximity. Proximity is the single most important condition for friendship. There was research at the University of Kansas that was done about friendship. And I'm gonna probably get the facts or the actual digits wrong, but I'm gonna be in the right range. In order to have a casual friend, you need to spend almost 80 hours with somebody. In order to have a super close friend over 200 hours. And the proximity creates the conditions. Yes. Other school parents, other school parents, seeing them on the sidelines in class, sitting next to people at work, you used to have a lot of friends at work, right. Because you spent so much time with them. So that brings me to the second condition that needs to be present for good friendship to happen, and that is timing. So timing means Are we in the same time of our lives? Are we both raising kids? Are we around the same age? Are we interested in the same things? This explains why you can spend 50 to 60 hours a week with people at work and really love them, and they're awesome. But you're not best friends because you may be in your 20s, and so you go out and get wasted, and then you're puking in a garbage can on Sunday night, and then Monday morning it's like, hey, what'd you do? Oh, I went to a soccer game with my kids. You're in different. Timing of life. So there's only so much. Third condition for friendship. Energy. Energy is just about whether or not there's a fit or not. And I've come to believe it has a lot more to do about what your priorities are. This is why you can be super close friends with people, but if you decide to stop drinking, all of a sudden, you're not that close because the energy shifts. Now, here's the most important thing. The reason why it's important to understand that it's about proximity, it's about timing, and it's about energy. Is that when friendship, friendships naturally come and go, it doesn't mean anything's wrong. It's actually good.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Mel Robbins]

You gotta let them. Let them come and go. And the mistake that people make is they start to say, I have no friends. That's not true. People come and go in your life, and it's a beautiful thing. And at any moment, you can decide that friendship is important to you and.

[Kara Swisher]

Make it a priority.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And. And every time in your life that you move or you go through a divorce or you have any major job change, you are going to experience a little scattering of friendship. Because proximity will change, and so will the timing, and so will energy. Like, for example, my husband and I moved to southern Vermont when we were in our 50s, and it was shocking to move to a new place and literally go, oh, my God, I have no friends here, right? I gotta start all over. And you feel like that first week in college where it feels like everybody has got their group and you're the only idiot sitting alone, you know, in the cafeteria. And you don't want to be that cringy person that goes up to other people. What did you do? What did I do? Well, first I cried and stayed alone in my house for six months and literally was like, why are we just the worst thing? You know? This is why I'm so good at giving advice, because I fuck up my life. All the time. And I find myself in these situations where I'm like, okay, well, nobody's going to magically parachute out of the sky and fix. No one's coming. I'm either gonna suffer in misery or I'm gonna fucking fix this. And again, let's go back to some of the things we talked about. The brain doctor K defaults to what's easy. Being miserable and crying is easy. And at some point, you'll get to a point where you're like, it's actually harder to stay in here and sit with myself than to push my ass out the door. And to go to that coffee shop.

[Kara Swisher]

You have to make a thing. When I moved to California from D.C. i had a wonderful social life in D.C. friends, everything else. And I moved to California to cover the nascent Internet industry and didn't know anyone. And I just broke up with someone too. So it was just like. And I spent a couple months, like, crying in a rainy San Francisco house. And I remember when spring came, I, you know, I'm gonna say yes to everything. Everything. I'm gonna. Even the smallest little thing. And it was changed everything.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, it does. Like, I started, honest to God, by just going to the coffee shop. And then instead of sitting there alone, I force myself to start turning and talking to people in a line instead of looking at my phone, you know, come here. Oh, I like your socks. Like, just complimenting somebo is a great way.

[Kara Swisher]

Love bombing.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. To just strike up a cut turn and talk to the people next to you. It's a way to start to come out of your shell.

[Kara Swisher]

Actually, longevity depends on talking to strangers. It's really interesting.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Are you gonna talk about the warm connection? So here's the thing. We undervalue the foundational importance of what they call. They call em something like cold relationships, but I like to call them warm relationships. These are the barista at the costume coffee shop. This is the person that you see at the dog park, stopping and talking to folks, learning their names. And here's a great hack. So for your favorite coffee shop or the place that you go a lot, your restaurants, whatever the gym, create a contact listing. Put in the coffee shop name in the notes section, put their names with a description, beard and glasses. Makes a great cup of coffee. His name is Kevin. And then you're gonna learn that his dog is. And then before you go into the coffee shop, you look at it. Yes. And then you can walk in and you're like, hey, Kevin, how you doing? Smell. And you start to build this framework that actually matters because you start to feel seen and you start to feel like there is a small community. And from there you loosen up and start to.

[Kara Swisher]

And they don't have to be your friend.

[Mel Robbins]

Absolutely not.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely not. And it actually, there's so many studies now, as I told you, I'm working on this long the series talking to people you've never. There's a group called I think Time Spent that puts together six people. It's got 100,000 people across the globe doing this. You've never met. You meet six people, they just put you together and you spend the evening with them. And every study shows this is like one of the. Everyone's like, what can you do about longevity? Should you do shrimp semen? You should do this. You should.

[Mel Robbins]

I'm like, shrimp semester.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

[Mel Robbins]

I know, but I'm like. Well, like I'm digging the vein out of the back of that thing before. Before I eat it.

[Kara Swisher]

Shrimp semen, apparently. Anyway, that said, the biggest thing is community and meeting people you don't know and establishing is fascinating. Actual links to longevity.

[Mel Robbins]

With that, of course, it's not like in life.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

It's not about the destination or the journey. It's about the company.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I knew you were gonna say that. So one personal question. How do I learn to let Scott.

[Mel Robbins]

Do you have to? No, just kidding.

[Kara Swisher]

Apparently not.

[Mel Robbins]

What is it about Scott that you need?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I don't. I do let him. I actually, interestingly enough, it's the first relationship often with men like Scott. Sometimes when they were sort of narcissistic or pushed on things, I would try to stop them. And I think Scott's been the greatest success because I do let him. And I think it gives people permission not to fight with people so much to be able to disagree and be okay with it and still be. Not just be civil, but be friends with people you disagree with. And. And it gives people permission to laugh a little bit.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I want you to imagine something. So one of the reasons why the let them theory is so important, particularly in this polarized world, is that we all have a complete intolerance of an opposing point of view. And the only way, and this is again very research based, I'll give you kind of a visual to think about, because the only way that you are actually going to. To influence somebody else's opinion is if you give them the space to first share theirs and to feel understood. So I want you to imagine that you've got two Glasses. And one glass is filled with red water and one glass is filled with blue water. And these represent two people that have two very different points of view about life. What we do in life, when somebody starts to go off or act in a way that we don't like is instead of like when they start to go off and act in a way, a mess, imagine that red glass is tipping over and they're pouring all of it out of their brain. The second you react, respond like, disagree, bitch. Ba da da da da da da da. What that is actually is it's as if you've taken your glass of blue water and tried to pour it on top of the red. There's no room in the brain to hear it. They have to first feel as though you have listened and heard what they've had to say. And so. So I think a lot about the fact that saying let them forces me to stop just getting so pissed off.

[Kara Swisher]

Or getting your digs in or getting.

[Mel Robbins]

My digs in and just let them pour it out. It's sort of like somebody puking. Like if somebody's puking, you don't stand in front of them. You stand to the side, you stand far away. Yeah. You hold their hair. Like if they got long hair, right. You rub their back. Is there anything else? Maybe? Anything else?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, let it come out and then, then somebody is able to hear you. But we have to build this tolerance of being able to let people be who they are and have their opinions and then let me be more effective at understanding what I think I hear and then saying something. But I wanna give you a framework to use with Scott. This comes from Charles Duhig, Pulitzer Prize winning. Yeah, Charles is fantastic. So he has this three part framework. He basically says people are only ever having three different conversations. Right. They're having a practical one, which is really like, okay, I have a goal, let's find a solution. They're having an emotional one where they're venting. And what's the goal of an emotional conversation? I want empathy, Kara. I want you to validate me. Or they're having a social one. They just want acknowledgement. And I think often listening to you guys. Scott is having an emotional or social conversation and you're trying to have a practical one. And one of the things that have changed my parenting is I've literally adopted this phrase that is, do you want me to listen or would you like my advice? And nine times out of 10, people just want you to listen. Another thing that you could say to Scott, that I love. Cause I, you know, when he does things that are just like, oh, my God. Like when you opened up the show where he was in his apartment and he made that joke about how like the last time a woman was here, you know, $60 on this? Exactly. You can just say, dude, that is below a standard for my response. Or you can also say, could you repeat that?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Oh, I like that. Because in the pause, this one I think is priggy. The first one is priggy.

[Mel Robbins]

But in the pause, could you repeat that? Yeah, he's gonna be like, I didn't mean that. But the pause and asking somebody to repeat it forces them to reflect on what just happened. You can also say, did you actually mean to be offensive?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, that sounds pricky. Lesbian.

[Mel Robbins]

See, there you go. You can do. But it depends on the person how you want to solve it. But I love that pause and just be like, could you repeat that?

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Mel Robbins]

Huh? I was just kidding.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I do sometimes, though, when people are acting badly, I go, is that the wind? I pretend I never heard it in the first place or just not acknowledge it in any way. It's often very effective, you know, is that the wind is my favorite question. I used to do it with kids when they were being really bad and they're like, my one son, the other day, I did it with my three year old. He was being really mean to his sister and I said, claire, just say, is that. Is that the wind happened because he was trying to hurt her?

[Mel Robbins]

See, the only problem with doing that in our family is that that's a cover for a fart.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Mel, we'll take one more quick break and we'll be. Thank you for the advice. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Mel Robbins]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile Unlimited premium Wireless. How many get 30.

[Kara Swisher]

30.

[Mel Robbins]

Better get 30. Better get 20. 20.

[Kara Swisher]

20.

[Mel Robbins]

Better get 20. 20.

[Kara Swisher]

Better get 15.

[Mel Robbins]

15. 15, 15.

[Kara Swisher]

Just 15 bucks a month.

[Mel Robbins]

Sold. Give it a try at mintmobile.com switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See [e-mail], it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail], the only thing we treat better than windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for buy one, get one free on select styles plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.

[Kara Swisher]

In 1961, President Kennedy's FCC chairman, Newton Minow gave a speech deriding commercial TV programming.

[Mel Robbins]

I can assure you that what you will observe is a vast wasteland.

[Kara Swisher]

He wanted to do something about it.

[Mel Robbins]

Is there one person in this room who claims that broadcasting can't do better?

[Kara Swisher]

So Congress created something called the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. You might not have realized when you were interacting with the cpb, but it happened all the time when you were tickled by Elma. Happy international joke day when someone moved.

[Mel Robbins]

You on the drive home. This is FRESH air. I'm Terry Gross.

[Kara Swisher]

CPB is the reason you're hearing my voice right now. But due to big, beautiful cuts, the organization announced on Friday that it would be shutting down next year. What's taken its place? If you ask this White House, they might say something like prageru. What is Prageru on today? Explained. Mel, we're back. Let's hear some wins or fails. Would you like me to go first to show you?

[Mel Robbins]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. A fail. Tim Cook. It's not a fail, it's a win for him. Apple is trying to stay in Trump's good graces, investing an additional $100 billion in U.S. jobs and suppliers, bringing a total of 600 billion over four years. Although if you look at the last time, they didn't end up spending that. This is basically a press release and it includes a $2.5 billion Kentucky based Corning, which they've already there. So glass and iPhones and watching made in the USA but not iPhones. But they've already been doing that. So they're doing a lot of things for Trump's benefit. And in doing so, he was in the Oval Office announcing the new deal and he presented Trump with this plaque that was a piece of this Corning glass along with a gold stand. And I just thought here's one of the good guys doing this and he is a decent fellow, I have to say. But it reminds you that everything is for the shareholders, no matter what profits over people, even someone who's a relatively decent fellow like Tim Cook, you don't have to be an Elon Musk to do something that's a real fail. And so that's where we are right now. If people like this do this, you know where we are. And it works. Cause giving him a little gold statue makes him feel better. I think my win is. I love south park has done it again. I just. They're so good, and sometimes I don't like some of the stuff they do. But I gotta say, really funny. They don't suffer fools. They brought the latest episode they had already done the Trail, the Trump one that got everyone all hot and bothered right in the middle of a deal that the company did something really terrible in order to get the deal done. But they made J.D. vance look like Tattoo from Fantasy Island. I'm old enough to remember Fantasy island.

[Mel Robbins]

The play the Penang. I can't do that one. I know the Penang used to scare the shit out of me.

[Kara Swisher]

Go back and watch it. Some of them stay. Okay, that one, you're really like, oh, my God. The show poked fun at Homeland Security, had Kristi Noem with a running gag of her face continually melting. She keeps shooting puppies, obviously. And I just. They went there and I like when people do that. And that's what satire's for. And it can seem mean, but whoever's in power, I really like when this is what you use your satirical talents for. I thought it was really great. So those are my wins and fails.

[Mel Robbins]

So my fail is this recent case that the federal court handed down in San Francisco.

[Kara Swisher]

The lawyer's coming back. Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, no. This really pisses me off, honestly, where they ruled in favor of AI companies having the legal right to upload copyrighted material into large language modeled things. And let me just explain what this means. If you write a book, somebody can go and buy your book for $25 and upload the entire transcript into AI and use it with unfettered access or any citation to you or any link out to you or anything to you. And this is the single biggest raid, I think, of intellectual property. And there are lots of authors that are bringing lawsuits. They brought.

[Kara Swisher]

Tony Robbins is.

[Mel Robbins]

Yep, Tony Robbins is. And you know what is a huge fail? And again, we're kind of touching on something we already talked about is the lack of regulation. To put this in perspective, every single day, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of AI generated fake shit of me online.

[Kara Swisher]

I had the same thing happen in my book come out at Amazon.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And here's the problem. And I'm not whining. This is an Occupational hazard. I am concerned as a lawyer and a citizen because I have 38 million followers and one of the largest podcasts in the world. You do. I cannot get the platforms to take this shit down.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And if I can't do it, how the hell is stealing your stuff? It's not even stealing my stuff. They're stealing my face and my voice and putting female AI. Oh, they already do. There are things with me out there saying all kinds of inflammatory stuff about Pakistan, and I can't get it taken down. And if I can't do that, what's gonna happen to the average person who is having their identity stolen? Who is having this happen to them? What is happening to the independent artists that can't afford a lawyer who's having their work ripped off? Our podcast, my audiobook got uploaded to an AI bot, and they generated a fake version of it with two AI bots reading the audiobook. And under this case law, the fair use doctrine and derivative works, they have a clip claim that it generated by AI with fake AI robot voices. That. That is now protected because it's derivative of what I did. Now here's the problem that I have. You can upload it to Spotify, which they did. It started ranking in the top 10 podcasts in the world marketed as my audiobook. It took me three months to get them to remove it. Three months. And I have the means to get it removed.

[Kara Swisher]

Why?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, because there's no regulation and there's no requirement, and this is why we're failing. There needs to be a requirement that something that is either generated by or spoken by AI is labeled as such. Because I will compete against a robot, but I'd like to know that it's a robot. As a consumer, I would like to know if I'm listening to your voice or if I'm listening to something that somewhere in some room overseas created in some den.

[Kara Swisher]

They also get money that do you, of course, Savannah Guthrie wrote a book about her religion, and some AI made a war, and her mother bought it thinking it was her workbook on how to do this.

[Mel Robbins]

And so the lack of the requirement of labeling, I think a lot of consumers would go, well, I don't want to listen. I don't want to read that news. If AI wrote it, I'd rather read the news by this journalist that I trust is why so many people are going to substack. So I think it's a huge fail, this litigation. Like this is to me, do you.

[Kara Swisher]

Want to create an AI version of yourself?

[Mel Robbins]

Does It.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's.

[Mel Robbins]

No, no. Some people are doing it. Absolutely not. One version of me is enough. I would like to stay married. We're gonna be married for 29 years. This year. I'd like to stay married. I feel like this case law is as big of a deal as Citizens United. I really do. Like, I believe Citizens United laid the foundation for the unraveling of democracy, full stop. I believe this case law is 100% setting a precedent that is really going to unravel copyrighted work and artistic work, and it's also setting a precedent for a lack of regulation, which, from a consumer standpoint. I want to know. Don't you want to know if a person.

[Kara Swisher]

No. I've been railing about this for.

[Mel Robbins]

So that case law, for me is a major loss. Here's a huge win. I think at the age of 60 and 56, you and I are fucking winning to be competing on a global level.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm 62.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, I know you are. So. You look incredible.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. Once again, thank you.

[Mel Robbins]

You're welcome. I agree. That's the best response I have ever heard. Everybody, did you hear that? I want you to send this. That section right there. Send this to every woman and girl you have. When you compliment them, teach the women and girls in your life to say, I agree. Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree. Thank you. You're right.

[Mel Robbins]

That's correct. Amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

Some guy came to me with something else. I did a work thing, and they're like, that was really good. I go, no, it was fucking fantastic. And they're like, well, that's egomaniacal. I said, you just said I was great.

[Mel Robbins]

No, it's a fact. It's not ego.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a fact. It's facts. Them's facts.

[Mel Robbins]

But I feel in this day and age, with all of the tech and the fact that in the podcasting space, it's typically about either entertainment or, you know, kind of pop culture or spreading conspiracy theory. For us at our age to have built a potential podcast that people actually turn to and trust, I think that means we are truly winning. And I love doing it at our age.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. The popularity of Crohn's, you know, remember that word?

[Mel Robbins]

Crohn?

[Kara Swisher]

It's a word for old ladies.

[Mel Robbins]

Crone. I'd never heard that word.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God, look it up.

[Mel Robbins]

Crohn's. Is it because Crohn's disease. You get it when you're old?

[Kara Swisher]

No. C, R, O, N, E, s. Crohn's.

[Mel Robbins]

Is that how you spell Crohn's? I don't know. I don't know. What? No. I think I'm not as smart as you. No, stop it. You know what?

[Kara Swisher]

Don't.

[Mel Robbins]

No. Mark Twain says, you may not. It takes a simple mind to spell a word one way. And half the words, I don't even know what they mean.

[Kara Swisher]

Do your simple mind voice again.

[Mel Robbins]

It was so sad that Mel Robbins is so simple. Well, you know, everything she says is really simple.

[Kara Swisher]

Why didn't you do it?

[Mel Robbins]

Was it.

[Kara Swisher]

I'd say, why didn't you do it then?

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah. Then why didn't you do it?

[Kara Swisher]

One time, years ago, Bill Gates was in a meeting with me and he was talking about the iPhone, which was the most beautiful, simple thing. Ipod, actually. It was before that. And he goes, what is it? Just a hard drive and a white box. It's so trivial. And I said, it's so easy. Why didn't you. You do it?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, it only seems simple when somebody does it.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct? That is.

[Mel Robbins]

And that's the genius in it. It's very easy to make something complicated. It is extraordinarily difficult and takes a lot of rigor to distill complicated things into a simple thing that anybody can use and you can remember and share with somebody else. And that's what I do.

[Kara Swisher]

And contrary to that, Steve Jobs said that. He said, it's easy to make. It's hard to make complex things simple. It's easy to make simple things complex. And I would like, oh, I was like Buddha. Like, I didn't know what. I was like, oh, my God, he's right once again. But it's true. Which you do. Mal, you're fantastic.

[Mel Robbins]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

We love having you on here. It's really wonderful. You deserve all your success. At first, when I first heard you, I was like, no. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, she's right. She's fantastic. I didn't say, oh, she's being here. She's. Well, you know what?

[Mel Robbins]

I don't want to be right. I'd like to be useful.

[Kara Swisher]

No, that's what I mean. I think you hit on something and it's not. It's actually got substance behind it and science, which you. You cited and stuff like that. And that's the key thing for a lot of people who give easy answers or seem like easy answers, you have the backup, which I really appreciate. Thank you. And that's all you have to do. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot. Submit a question for the show or call 855-51-Pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. I'll be back next week with another amazing co host. I heard Rachel Maddow's coming, David Remnick's coming. We've got so but Mel, thank you so much. I love Scott Free August because I get to spend time with people like you and I've had enough of him for a little while. I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.