Anthropic IPO Chatter, Bitcoin's Turbulent Week, and Kara Gets Caught in a Scandal

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary – Dec 5, 2025
New York Magazine | Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Episode Title: Anthropic IPO Chatter, Bitcoin’s Turbulent Week, and Kara Gets Caught in a Scandal

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Episode Overview

This episode covers the latest news and insights from tech, business, and media, including:

• Early Anthropic IPO speculation,
• Bitcoin and crypto market turmoil,
• A deep dive into media ethics via Kara's entanglement in a journalism scandal,
• M&A wars over Warner Bros. Discovery,
• Billionaire philanthropy and structural inequality,
• Costco suing the federal government, as well as the duo’s characteristic back-and-forth on reputation, accountability, and industry disruption.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Therapy Discourse Revisited

(01:39–06:32)

• Kara Swisher shares her mother-in-law’s reaction to Scott's prior comments on the therapy industry, ultimately supporting Scott’s critical stance.
• Scott discusses negative social media criticism, especially accusations of misogyny. Kara and Scott debate how social media incentives amplify controversy and negativity.
• Memorable quotes:

  "The more incendiary negative comments or words in titles, the more clicks." – Scott, (05:12) "I like to think of myself as an off ramp from the red pill." – Scott, (03:59)

2. Celebrity Endorsements and Media Banter

(06:41–11:00)

• Oprah publicly praises Scott's book, “Notes on Being a Man”, describing him as a “thought leader” with his “whole hand on the pulse of men.”
  • Replay of Oprah’s Instagram clip.
• The hosts riff on media fame, therapy, and the bizarre nature of being transformed into “characters” by others.

3. The Olivia Nuzzi–Ryan Lizza Journalism Scandal

(11:00–17:57)

• Kara explains her involuntary role as a “swizzle stick” in the Nuzzi–Lizza–RFK Jr. affair, defending her decision to alert her editor after learning that a journalist covered a candidate she was allegedly involved with.
• Both hosts stress basic crisis management: acknowledge, take responsibility, overcorrect.
  • Scott notes the broader reputational impact, especially for women in journalism.
• Memorable quotes:

  "It's typically not the detonation, the crisis itself, it's the shrapnel ... the cover-up." – Scott, (15:00) "I did the right thing and I'd like to leave, please. Like, make it fucking stop. And the book's not selling, by the way." – Kara, (16:24)

4. Anthropic’s Potential IPO and AI Industry Competition

(17:57–24:57)

• Anthropic may file for IPO in 2026; CEO Dario Amodei’s DealBook remarks focus on AI safety and industry risks. (Clip played at 18:58)
• Anthropic vs. OpenAI: Anthropic seen as “measured, honest, less cheerleading,” focused on enterprise, trust, and vertical markets.
  • OpenAI’s mass-market push and “code red” internal focus after competitive pressure.
• IPO speculation: Anthropic could beat OpenAI to IPO, capturing investor excitement for “enterprise first” AI, regulatory alignment.
• Memorable quotes:

  "In my experience… B2B is more consistent. If a company signs an enterprise or a sitewide license, they tend to not [leave]." – Scott, (20:20) "OpenAI is trying to become a full operating system for AI ... Anthropic is trying to focus on enterprise and … regulatory environment." – Scott, (24:11)

5. Warner Bros. Discovery Bidding Frenzy

(24:57–35:03)

• Multiple offers from Netflix, Paramount (+ Apollo + Middle East), and Comcast.
• Paramount’s bid based on political proximity to Trump for regulatory approval, relying on foreign capital, prompting ethical & antitrust concerns.
• Hosts lament the politicization of deals and the risk of non-U.S. control over media IP.
• Scott analogizes the situation to prom competition, critiquing irrational late appreciation of key assets.
• Memorable quotes:

  "Part of their main strategy is Trump loves us... It's so non-economic what they're doing here and then involving the Saudis is really... troubling." – Kara, (25:59)

6. Michael Dell’s ‘Trump Accounts’ Philanthropy & Wealth Power

(38:43–42:30)

• Debate over Dell’s $6.25B donation for “Trump Accounts for Kids.” Kara is critical: “Just tax him properly,” calling the branding “grotesque.” Scott notes philanthropic efforts are still laudable, but agrees structural change is preferable.
• Broader conversation about billionaire philanthropy, the differences in approach between men and women, and models for long-term wealth redistribution.

7. Bitcoin and Crypto Market Volatility

(42:30–46:48)

• Bitcoin has fallen ~30% from peak; significant volatility continues despite the “crypto president.”
• Scott shares his own investment losses, considers doubling down, and highlights shifting demographics—crypto is overwhelmingly younger and male.
• Kara expresses caution; both reflect on the psychological and generational dynamics of crypto speculation.
• Prediction: the next “crypto” trend will be prediction markets.

8. Costco vs. Trump Administration: Corporate Resistance

(50:32–55:07)

• Costco sues the US Government for refund of Trump-era tariffs, arguing those tariffs misused emergency powers.
• Scott and Kara celebrate Costco’s business model, customer loyalty, and willingness to fight for its interests; compare to stories of Nordstrom’s legendary customer service.
  • "The only place where I go in for paper towels and I leave with a kayak..." – Scott, (52:40)
  • "They'll still refund you ... you could literally show up and hand them the ashes of your broken dreams." – Scott, (54:01)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On social media and reputation:

  "The profit incentive is to be as over the top ... and, quite frankly, not over the top positive." – Scott, (05:47)

• On AI company positioning:

  "They're trying to position themselves as high trust, enterprise first LLM provider." – Scott, (20:20)

• On political dealmaking:

  "Doing this non economically because you're pals with the President is about the most non capitalist thing I can think of." – Kara (31:40)

• On philanthropy and social policy:

  "If we're just reliant on the generosity of billionaires, they get to dictate social policy, not our elected leaders." – Scott, (39:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:39 – Therapy debate and social media (through 06:32)
• 07:03 – Oprah's endorsement of Scott
• 11:00 – Journalism scandal (Olivia Nuzzi)
• 17:57 – Anthropic IPO and AI competition
• 24:57 – Warner Bros. bidding wars
• 38:43 – Michael Dell's philanthropy and "Trump Accounts"
• 42:30 – Bitcoin/crypto turbulence
• 50:32 – Costco sues U.S. Govt over tariffs

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Tone & Style

The episode is fast-paced, irreverent, and candid—Kara and Scott provide sharp criticism, industry anecdotes, and self-deprecating humor. They’re unafraid to criticize powerful figures, reflect honestly on their own positions, and use high-profile news to explore systemic challenges in tech, media, and capitalism. The banter remains personal but deeply connected to larger industry trends.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

Expect insight into:

• The obstacles of AI enterprise vs. mass-market approaches,
• The messy, very personal human realities behind journalism and business scandals,
• The persistent intertwining of politics, business, and media consolidation,
• The growing debate over billionaire philanthropy vs. taxation,
• How iconic brands can fight back against political overreach.

The episode blends news analysis, industry inside baseball, and genuine debate, with plenty of irreverent comic relief.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

I usually walk out of things and go, I killed it once again.

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, I just want to tell you my mother in law agrees with you. She's a psychologist and remember I said she was going to be mad at you about your therapy rant the other day? Well, it turns out she agrees with you.

[Scott Galloway]

Go on.

[Kara Swisher]

I would like to tell you it's incredible. So here, I'm gonna just read it to you. Cause she's so thoughtful about everything and she goes, my thought is I agree with Scott on every point he makes. I know you were joking about your mother in law coming after him. I listened to that part about therapy twice to make sure I heard understood what he was saying. He was a little too strong at first, maybe understandable to me because of the off criticisms from people who didn't get even read his book. And he has good points about the therapy industrial complex too. Anyone who listens to Scott knows he isn't blaming women and that criticism is bullshit. He is smart and nuanced and completely capable of complex understanding. Homelessness, poverty and the lack of sustaining empathy in available relationships are chronic root causes along with traumatizing experiences and biological vulnerabilities of serious mental distress and disturbance. The interpersonal therapy we think of as discovering and addressing unconscious conflicts and deep hurts can be helpful in freeing people to be their fuller selves, working through and accepting loss, disappointments, et cetera. And so she goes on and she said certainly as Scott also points out, therapy of this kind is not even remotely available to the vast majority of people. She agrees with you everyone. And the last thing she said I don't believe Scott is saying that the competent ethical therapists are overselling the benefits of therapy or thinking that structural economic vulnerabilities, insecurities, cure food, housing, income chronically and experience trauma are healed through talk therapies. But as the other marketed efforts, unscrupulous practitioners may and do take advantage of struggling people. And I'm sure Scott would agree that healthcare, including mental healthcare, needs to be broadly affordable and available, not just for the well to do.

[Scott Galloway]

Boom, there you go.

[Kara Swisher]

You're now getting married to Amanda because.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I'm trying to think because I.

[Kara Swisher]

Know you were upset by the therapeutic.

[Scott Galloway]

Response and well, well hearing that my, my instincts or my muscle memory is to come up with a snarky comment but the reality is and you should pass this along to your mother in law. I really needed to hear that because when you just constantly getting comments on TikTok, I mean the reviews of the book have been 98% positive but when you get a significant number of tiktoks and reels in your feed from people who clearly haven't read the book saying this guy has a pipeline to the red pill. I like to think of myself as an off ramp from the red pill.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

And the thing that really hurts is here's another man blaming women and I'm like oh my God, I'm not blaming women anyways so please pass along or trust your mother in law's listening to this. I needed to hear that. It feels really good. So thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

No problem. I mean I think what was she's an avid listener pivot and I think as I was thinking of it I thought a therapist would be mad but people are much more Thoughtful. And I think what you're dealing with is people that just do these things. Five second takes, like hot takes on Scott Galloway. And I get that from people about you. And I'm like, no, that's not true. Like, that's not what the. The blaming women thing I have gotten from a lot of people. And I'm like, that you didn't read it then. You didn't read it then. That's my. Usually my defense.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, what's interesting is that, and if you look at big tech algorithms and if you look at headlines, we do a lot of ab testing around titles to see what YouTube, YouTube title or thumbnail will get garnered the most headlines or the most downloads. The one trend that is overwhelmingly clear, the more incendiary negative comments or words and titles, the more clicks. And also they did an analysis. Inflammatory negative commentary in headlines, in the media is up 140%.

[Kara Swisher]

It's true.

[Scott Galloway]

And so if someone wants to say, I'm reviewing a book, this is what he gets right and what he gets wrong. That's not nearly as powerful as. I can't stand this misogynist.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, it's just. It's just every algorithm and profit incentive is to be as over the top, and quite frankly, not over the top positive. You know, to say, I just love, love, love this.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

No, say why this is why. This is dangerous.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I nearly almost got in a fistfight. Someone said, oh, he's sort of like Jordan Peterson. Like, he's the anti fucking Jor Peterson. I'm like, they're in the same category, but Jordan Peterson, I think, is quite neg. I mean, I know you like parts of his stuff, but I was like, couldn't be more different.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, anyway, thank you. Thank you for coming to my defense. Thank you for protecting me. I appreciate it. When we walk down the street, I need you to walk on the street side to protect me from splashes, from.

[Kara Swisher]

Carriages, with my shiv. I shall shiv people. But I have an issue. You cheated on me with Oprah.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't know she'd fall in love with me, Kara. I didn't. It wasn't planned. We met, you did. It started innocent.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's listen. I think she did a little bit. This was a very strange little thing she put up. I think it was on Instagram. Let's listen to what she said about you.

[Scott Galloway]

Scott Galloway has written a book called Notes on Being a Man. You know, he's a great podcaster and one of the thought leaders of our time. And I think he has his finger, his thumb, his whole hand on the pulse of what's happening with men in our society today.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Scott, you had your whole hand on men. That was interesting to hear.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. And then my forearm and then my full torso is on the scale. I'll tell you, by the way, Oprah, I'm really.

[Kara Swisher]

You were upset, not upset when you left. You were sort of equivocal, I would say.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, let me just say I'm really enjoying this podcast so far. But when I left, Oprah, I don't know about you, I have trouble processing stuff in the moment. People say, how'd it go? I'm like, I'm not sure. I walk out of there. First off.

Oprah herself, individually, is clearly a genius, but she surrounds herself with real pros. And you could tell they spent a month recruiting the audience. They had these videos, the lighting, the venue. I mean, these people give really good tv. And I walked out of there, and I maybe even have called you, and I'm like, I have no idea how that worked.

[Kara Swisher]

I did. I was sort of like, oh, that's too bad. You didn't have a good time. I usually walk out of things and go, I killed it. Once again.

Again, I was right. Hello, fantastic. Hello, beautiful.

[Scott Galloway]

That reminds me so much. When I knew my. I, of course, I got to turn this back to me. I remember I took my. You know, in. In Delray Beach, Florida, every weekend is on the sidelines of a soccer game, and my son was so excited. He got put in goal. He wanted to be a goalie. And within, like, I barely even, like, they kicked off the ball, and there was a goal on him, and then another goal. And I was texting his mom going, oh, my God, another goal. And finally she said, stop it, stop it. And I'm like, oh, my God, he is going to be so traumatized. Like, it was like 11 to 1. And at 1 point, I went to the coach and, like, can you just get him out of goal? I was like, it was one of the most painful 90 minutes I've ever spent. We walk off the field, and I'm trying to think about, okay, how do I be in reinforcement? I put my arm around him, like, so how to go out there? And he's like, great. Did you see the save I made? I made one save.

[Kara Swisher]

I love you. That's fantastic.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm like, this kid's gonna be fine.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, he did great out there.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. You would focus on the 11. Yeah. Well, good for him. That's Good. Anyway, you were. Watch the whole thing. I've decided she's making you into the new. Whatever, her person. You know, she's like, she. So far, her record's not great. I like the Nate guy who does the decorating, but Dr. Phil and Dr. I tolerate Dr. Oz because he's your friend.

[Scott Galloway]

Dr. Phil asked me to come down to Dallas. Actually, I think they saw me.

[Kara Swisher]

That's not happening. You may not go. He's a terrible person. He follows around ice raids and uses.

[Scott Galloway]

That's not good. Yeah, that's not good. Do you know Oprah? She feel. You know. Actually, who I know is Gayle King. Set me up with Oprah. So Gail King is. I know, is really generous and nice.

[Kara Swisher]

She is. You're perfect for Oprah. I mean, I do. I met her at Sheryl Sandberg's house at one of these things that Sheryl put together. And she. I didn't know what a vision board was. And it was a moment because I wasn't fully in the Oprah camp. She looks great, but I have to say, she's like a tractor beam. Like, she touches your arm and she goes, you know, and I apologize for not knowing what it was. And I said, I'm sorry. I didn't know what a vision board was. And then she touched me on the arm and she put her hand in front of my face, and she. She goes, that's because you have a vision board in your head.

[Scott Galloway]

She has that Bill Clinton magnetism where you get the sense. You meet her and she's like, oh, my God, this woman really likes me. And the fastest way to get someone to like you is to like them.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So you're immediately like, oh, she really likes me. Which makes me like her. She has that Bill Clinton she does.

[Kara Swisher]

Touches the arm like me, magnetism. Looks right in the air. She's beam. I was like, oh, no, I'm being Oprahed. Anyway, you were great. Of course, while you're getting fame and fortune from my mother in law and Oprah, I am.

[Scott Galloway]

Sarah Swisher's in the news.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm in the news with. I'm a swizzle stick.

[Scott Galloway]

You're a swizzle stick?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. The New York Times referred to the Olivia Nuzzi Ryan Lizza drama as a cocktail of cockamamie with a swizzle stick of Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

Give us the Cliff Notes. Like, give the list back.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna do this super quick. Olivia Nuzzi had a digital affair with Ryan with RFK Jr. Wasn't it more than digital? I don't know. She says digital. He's denying it completely. He's a big guy.

[Scott Galloway]

Does that mean online or fingers?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know, Scott. It's pictures, I think. I don't know. I don't know. Here. You're dragging me into this. I don't want to know about it. So here's. It was not good for a hotel.

[Scott Galloway]

Did they check into.

[Kara Swisher]

What did they wear? I get it. Listen, it's none of our beeswax, but it was wrong for a journalist to do this and then not disclose it since she was covering the presidential campaign and he was a candidate. Right. Kind of an issue, this. It's fine if you're, you know, an episode of Scandal, but not if you're living in the real world. Anyway, I found out about it through means. Nothing to do with Ryan. Nothing to do with her.

[Scott Galloway]

And Ryan is her ex.

[Kara Swisher]

Her fiance. They were getting married. They were getting married.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And I wasn't even told by him that they broke up. In any case, I found out, and it was through other means because it was getting out and I was worried about this. And the minute I found out, I knew I had to tell New York Magazine. And I was hoping that Olivia would do that or Ryan or one of them would. Would do it, but nobody did it. And so I called, I confirmed it. I made sure it was accurate and did reporting on it. And then I told David Haskell. It's the only person I told at vox. Later, I did talk to Jim Penkoff, but it. But I thought the editor was the right way to handle it, and I didn't want business involved.

[Scott Galloway]

And you told me, and I had no idea what you said.

[Kara Swisher]

No, No, I didn't exactly. I had.

[Scott Galloway]

What does that mean?

[Kara Swisher]

So anyway, that was later. I actually told you later. So I told them and I said, you need to talk to Olivia. She can't cover the president of this is true. And I said, you need to investigate and you need to figure this out and then disclose it to our audience. And that's all I said. I moved on. And I've been dragged back in one because Olivia has put me in her book, calling me her mentor. And essentially I ratted her up. But I didn't. I did the right thing. And then Ryan is doing a. In retaliation for her book, which got very badly reviewed. Deservedly. I will say, having read it.

She should have written it and put in a drawer. That's how I feel about this book. Like, written it and put it away.

[Scott Galloway]

Feels like Kamala Harris's book.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, no, Kamala Harris's is really good in comparison, but I would agree with you on that too.

So he started to write a series on his substack, trying to attract readers. I don't know what he's doing. I've told him I think it's. He should have written one piece if he felt he had to and moved on. But he's decided to do this. And in this newest episode of like the really grotesque Pickwick Papers, as I like to call it, as someone told me, he has put me at the end. He has all these hot kickers at the end. And the last kicker is a well known journalist just texted me three letters, rfk. And then the last line is, Kara Swisher had cracked the case. Like, I'm fucking eating like Encyclopedia Brown. But the case of the make it fucking stop. You too. And so I got dragged into their ridiculous drama. Thank you. That's it.

[Scott Galloway]

So a couple things. One.

I teach a course on crisis management and there's only three things you have to remember, but they're really hard and people end up not doing it. The first is you have to acknowledge the problem. If she had just come out and said, I'm human. The heart sometimes overrides the brain, as it does to a lot of men and a lot of women. I fucked up here. And then two, take responsibility. My fault. I'm not going to accuse my, you know, my fiance or even rfk. This is on me. And then third, overcorrect. And I'm not entirely sure how you do other than, other than showing contrition. You just try to overcorrect. She's done none of that. And then one of the many damaging things about this is I don't know that many emerging journalists. She caught my eye because I thought her work on Biden and other people was fantastic. She is clearly a rare talent and she has really shot herself in the foot here. And if you look at the damage done in crises, it's typically not the detonation, the crisis itself, it's the shrapnel. And the shrapnel is your attempt to cover up, excuse it, not take accountability for it. That's when people get really angry. And the other kind of sad thing about this, and it does represent a dual standard in sexism in our society. It's almost like we kind of expect RFK Jr just to be a pretty low human being. But the reality is it just how Olivia handled this sort of plays into the worst cartoon of women not having control over their emotions in a professional context. And I'm not saying I don't think that's reality. I don't think they have any less or more control than men. I've never bought. Oh, there's so many people out there saying women are better managers. I'm like, well, show me the data. I don't think they're any better or any worse, actually. It's probably not true. They're probably better relationally and better managers. But anyways, this just plays into this trope of how it feels like it's set women back, like two minutes on the cosmic clock of women's progress.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

Cause she just looks terrible here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And she keeps doubling down. And he does, too. And the whole. I literally. I hate being a side character in this. And I hate that now they're using, like. Now they've made me a character, which I'm like, I just did the right thing and I'd like to leave, please. Like, make it fucking stop. And the book's not selling, by the way. It's not like, I don't know how many substacks he's selling either. But it's. The whole thing is just not a good look for journalists. It's not a good look. You're right. For women, it makes us look like fucking idiots. Like, instead of, we made a mistake and we're gonna tell the audience everything.

[Scott Galloway]

Exactly right. It's as if they don't have friends. Because a good friend with any reasonable perspective would have sat her down and said, this is exactly what you do. I fucked up. Next. Don't talk about it. Don't write books about it. Don't go on Morning Joe or substack interviews and try and position it that it was your fiance's fault and drag other people into it. Just, I fucked up. I take responsibility. Next. I'm gonna continue. If New York Magazine doesn't want me around. I'm gonna continue to try and make a living as a journalist.

[Kara Swisher]

She's at Vanity Fair. I don't know if she'll see it. I always thought the way she corrected it is by doing good work again.

[Scott Galloway]

Just doing good work right through it. That's exactly right.

[Kara Swisher]

Work not about you.

[Scott Galloway]

Work through it. And not about this scandal. Cause she's just digging herself deeper and deeper.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I would recommend reading the reviews. Cause I thought even though everyone's like, oh, they're so major. I'm like, no, no, they're quite kind. It's what the editor should have done, like, especially Becca Rothfeld, who I think is amazing.

At the Washington Post, did a great review. I thought it was incredibly fair. These people actually said it was lack of honesty. Anyway, again, I don't want to. It's one of these topics. I'm like, let's fucking move on from this. Stop. Like, stop doing the. All of you, stop doing the fucking fan dance and leave me out of it because I'm a swizzle stick. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to, Joe, including what's going on these Trump accounts for kids and why investors are worried about a crypto winter. Things are going bad with Bitcoin. But first, Anthropic is exploring an IPO as early as next year, according to the Financial Times, tapping the law firm that advised on Google's and LinkedIn's iPodOS. That's interesting, though. The official word for Anthropic is that it hasn't decided when or if it will go public, but it feels like it is. Anthropic is also reportedly pursuing a private funding round that would value it at above $300 billion. Anthropic CEO Dario Amodi was at New York Times Dealbook Summit on Wednesday. While he didn't talk about the IPO directly, he did discuss the risks at play with all this AI spending. Let's listen.

[Scott Galloway]

When the timing of the economic value is uncertain, there's an inherent risk of underreacting or overextension.

[Kara Swisher]

And because the companies are competing with.

[Scott Galloway]

Each other and frankly, we genuinely need to compete with, you know, our authoritarian adversaries there, there's, there's kind of a.

[Kara Swisher]

Lot of pressure to push things. So I think there's some amount of.

[Scott Galloway]

Irreducible risk here and I absolutely don't want to deny this, but at the same time is that I think there.

[Kara Swisher]

Are some players who are not managing that risk well. I like him a lot, I have to say. I like his product. I like the way he talks about safety. I talked about him last week when David Sack was insulting the company for talking about safety, as if there was some thing.

I'm going to add on one more thing. And speaking of other AI players, Sam Altman is clearly feeling the heat from Google, Anthropic and others. He told employees this week that the company was declaring a code red to improve ChatGPT, delaying other products in the process, like an advertising product. So do you think we see an anthropic IPO before an OpenAI IPO and how talk about the bubble fears. I know You're a fan of Anthropic as a product, as Claude, but talk a little bit about this. I really think Dario is one of the people I appreciate because he. I don't always agree with him on everything, but at least he seems to be telling the truth. I know it's like the lowest bar of all time.

[Scott Galloway]

He's positioned himself really well as sort of the more measured, honest, less cheerleading. He even said, he even acknowledged that this is probably going to, at least in the short and the medium term, destroy a lot of jobs. And he offered up, up the notion that maybe the exceptional market share or increases in shareholder value should be taxed to help pay for some of the retraining. And he's been pretty, I feel like he's a pretty honest broker here and he's been a little bit of a nice antidote to Sam Altman, who I think is a little bit overexposed. And Anthropic's positioning is a little bit different. It has a much smaller consumer footprint, no mass market product like a ChatGPT. It primarily is in the business of enterprise APIs and it's really deeply integrated into finance, legal, healthcare, super strong partnerships with Amazon. And so they're trying to position themselves as sort of high trust enterprise first LLM provider. And I like that positioning because in my experience, and I'm biased because I like B2B but B2B typically is more consistent. If a company signs an enterprise or a sitewide license, they tend to not. Consumers are fickle. On the upside, something can get hot. You don't even know why. Like why is, you know, the boo boo, like explain to me the logic behind that. But they're positioning themselves.

[Kara Swisher]

But go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

They're positioning themselves as sort of the enterprise AI and it's, you know, OpenAI is sort of universal AI platform and anthropic is sort of enterprise safety and reliability leader. And I think that's a really good position. And it sounds basic.

And they have. The trade off is they have slower consumer adoption and less cultural buzz. But some of the things they have tried to do is reduce hallucination rates, better model control, better governance, better regulatory comfort, better safety. And they stepped on, I mean, it sounds basic, but they've basically stepped on OpenAI and said we're thinking about going public and they've got a ton of attention. So I think this was a really smart move.

[Kara Swisher]

He also did settle with copyright shareholders.

[Scott Galloway]

That's right. He's trying to.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, right, right.

[Scott Galloway]

So, you know, whereas ChatGPT is about subscriptions and API usage and enterprise licenses integration fees through Microsoft and Azure. Anthropic is really about API usage and enterprise contracts with long term commitments and also cloud partnerships. So I like. It's also priced premium relative to competitors and marketed as a safer alternative for regulated industries.

[Kara Swisher]

So OpenAI now you know this. I've always talked about this idea of what if it becomes Netscape. Right. This is my fear and not Google. And that feels like, that feels like Google's going to stay Google or whatever it happens to be. Which one's going to have the IPO first?

[Scott Galloway]

You know, the honest answers. I don't know. It comes down. It's a lot about the cap table, your shareholders, your. But you got to think that OpenAI's bankers are saying let's file tomorrow, let's go.

[Kara Swisher]

Wouldn't it be good if they went together? Would it be a bad thing?

[Scott Galloway]

What would be the best thing for both companies is if one goes out and rockets and gives everyone a chance to breathe and then institutional investors look at the 80% first, trade up on X firm and pile into Y. I don't think they want to go, go public too close to each other because they'll soak up all of the quote unquote LLM IPO capital.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And there's worry at the same time among investors. I think anthropics should probably go fast. That's what I would do.

[Scott Galloway]

Byron. Well.

It'S an instance where they quite frankly can establish a leadership position because OpenAI right now is pretty dominant in almost Every.

I mean OpenAI is trying to become a full operating system for AI with consumer and enterprise ubiquity.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And even product is trying to focus on enterprise and also the safety and more nod to the regulatory environment of different, of different verticals. Enterprise.

[Kara Swisher]

OpenAI is doing too much stuff. That's what I feel like. I'm like turducken. We have a turducken problem here. And maybe just focus on the product itself. I don't know. I always worry when they're oh, we're going to do this and now we're opening a store and selling T shirts and why, by the way, we hired Johnny. I've, I was like, great, but can you say no to something like that's, you know, being very disciplined. Anyway, we'll see what happens. That was a great interview. I recommended our favorite Canadian, Andrew Ross Serkin had a good day yesterday. He did a bunch of really good interviews.

[Scott Galloway]

He's great, isn't he?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he Did a great job. And he had a little more teeth. Andrew, I appreciate it. You're a little more toothy with people, which is great. I thought they were great. And very insightful interviews. Another story. The latest bids are in for Warner Brothers Discovery. Netflix has come back with a mostly cash offer after leaning on its stock for the initial bid. But the stock has been a little bit down. Actually. Paramount is also putting together an all cash bid financed by Apollo and some Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds, despite denying that involvement a few weeks ago. That'll tell you everything you need to know about these people. And Comcast has reportedly made a cash and stock bid that would merge NBCUniversal with Warner Brothers Discovery. Up next, Warner Brothers with you. Accept one of the offers or move to a third round of bids or break itself up like it was going to. One thing that I find really particularly disturbing is that, well, first of all, the Paramount bid has a $5 billion breakup thing because they're so confident in their closeness with Trump and White House officials and some republics already raising antitrust concerns about Netflix.

Part of their main strategy is Trump loves us and we'll do whatever it takes, which is really horrible. Whatever. That's their strategy. It's so non economic. What they're doing here and then involving the Saudis is really, I can't believe, believe that they would be big in any, any foreign country would be a big investor in owning this much of news and entertainment. I find that troubling. I don't mind them owning the golf things, but this is a whole nother story. Your thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

Emerson Junior High School, ninth grade. We had the ninth grade prom.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh dear.

[Scott Galloway]

Buckle up. Where's Ann?

[Kara Swisher]

Where's Ann?

[Scott Galloway]

Where's Ann?

And you know, you have your root, you have your pattern and how you walked to school. And my junior high school was not a hallmark. There were just certain routes you didn't go down. Cause there'd be a kid there that got used to sort of beating you up or asking you for money.

[Kara Swisher]

Were you beaten up?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I was pulled into bathrooms and beaten. Yeah. No, it wasn't.

[Kara Swisher]

Not me.

[Scott Galloway]

It wasn't. I mean, not a lot, but yeah, a lot of that. And by the way, I'm not gonna. In a weird way, I think some of it was probably good. You learn negotiation skills and adversity.

[Kara Swisher]

Don't break my face.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, there's a reason my nose goes to the right.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyways, I can't wait to see how this relates.

[Scott Galloway]

Going from home economics to Spanish class. Me and my best Friend Brett Jarvis would pass Kelly Mayhew and Lynn Sugimora. And Lynn was this beautiful, intelligent 14 year old. And we, neither of us had dates. And I just yelled out as Lynn was passing them by, lynn, will you go to prom with me? And they both laughed. And the next day, she cornered me outside and said, were you serious about me going to prom to you? And I'm like, you don't have a date. I mean, Lynn was beautiful. And she said, no. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Will you go to the prom with me? And she said, yes. And then Amelia, I go to the next class and I tell everyone I'm going to the prom. Lynn Sugimora. And within, like, the next day, she's like, five guys have asked me to the prom in the last day. So once people knew Lynn was actually going to go to the promotion and would go with Scott Galloway, all of a sudden, everyone decided to bid for Lyn Sugimora at the prom. Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. All right. I can see it. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, she left the dance with Ashley Tucker and broke my heart.

[Kara Swisher]

But she went with you?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, she did go with you.

[Kara Swisher]

You got her a corsage. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah. The big thing we wrap around and, like, a tuxedo that I didn't know how to put on and I didn't know how to tie. Anyway. And of course, in the high school gym, and it was great, we played rock lobster, and they put steam out and live lobsters on the floor. Anyways, end scene. Back to Warner Brothers. I got this wrong. I thought the Ellisons were going to show up with the biggest bank and get this done. And it appears what has happened is that Ted Sarandos and the Roberts family have said, you know, these assets kind of are singular. We should pull out our pencils. And it's like, to a certain extent, and this is one of the failures managers make, and that is they typically don't appreciate an employee's value until about the day after they leave.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

And that is they think of. They have a tendency to look at people through the lens of which they enter the organization rather than saying, if you really want to know what someone is worth, imagine they're leaving and what you would pay them. And the same thing's happening here, and that is there are a set of assets and also, you know, streaming platform and hbo, which, by the way, hbo, HBO still is.

The premier draw for talent. And whenever I've been involved in any type of Hollywood thing or series, if the producer, the actors could pick the distribution Platform of all of them, they would pick HBO talent loves HBO anyways. And also with Warner, there's just some singular aspects.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they decided what the fuck I'm getting in here.

[Scott Galloway]

And everyone's showing up with what I would argue, it seems right now kind of an irrational amount of money. And I think it's like, well okay, except for Comcast, our stocks are up. Netflix on a balance sheet level makes a lot of sense because they have so much fricking money and shareholder value right now. But I am surprised and I got this wrong. I thought the Ellisons were going to walk away with this.

[Kara Swisher]

Here's what I find offensive is that their whole strategy is we're friends with Trump. I did talk to someone from Comcast. I'm like, you know what? Just fucking sue them them and win. Like because by the way, Trump the last time tried to stop the AT and T merger, remember with, with Warner, they lost. Trump has maybe seven, eight months left on this thing that he has any real power. Right. If he loses the, that last election they just very troubling for the, for the Republicans. And so to me I'd lean into. Yeah, like your, your entire strategy is we're friends with the President and we're, we can, we can make a stupid Rush Hour 4 forum because we're big fucking suc. And by the way, let's drag in some people from, let's drag in some people from the Middle east who shouldn't be in this thing at all. And they lied about it, they denied it and they're there. Like this group of people is the sketchiest group of people you could think of. By the way, the best owner probably is Comcast. On a basic level. If I had to pick and then spin off the news things into Versant or whatever you want to do. Netflix is definitely is frightening for both Paramount and Comcast because they would own everything as you know. So there are antitrust concerns at the same time. Doing this non economically because you're pals with the President is about the most non capitalist thing I can think of.

[Scott Galloway]

A hundred percent.

[Kara Swisher]

It's like really.

I hate to say this but just because your dad is friends with the President doesn't mean you get to own everything. Like, sorry, like. And I feel like the others are better, are better suited. Now I get the Warner people are gonna wanna take the best deal but if they keep larding this, Donald Trump's my best friend. It's gonna bite them so hard later. That's my feeling. I mean I don't know, we'll see. We'll see what happens.

[Scott Galloway]

I find it's all quite confusing. So I just wanna give a bit of a breakdown or an unpack of what's going on around the bids. Paramount has made five bids so far, all cash. And this is the interesting part, with a $5 billion breakup fee, which is them saying, trust us, we're butt buddies with the president. This will go through. No one else is gonna offer a $5 billion. I think that's probably the largest breakup fee.

[Kara Swisher]

That was tell to me that was like, you're not gonna win this.

[Scott Galloway]

We're on the inside track.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but it also is we're insecure.

[Scott Galloway]

And they're also looking to buy the entire business and they argue a spinoff would be a taxable event. And the stock, stock, by the way, when they announced all this was down 7%. Netflix has submitted two mostly cash bids. That's obviously attractive. They're looking to spin off the cable networks. The stock again fell 5% yesterday. By the way, folks, the reason stocks fall when they get into the M and A race as the on top acquirer is that two thirds of acquisitions do not pay off. Comcast has also submitted two bids which are a mixture of cash and stock. Like Netflix, they would also spin off the cable networks and their stock was up about 1%. Or put another way, Paramount has submitted the best and most aggressive bid on the table, which doesn't mean it won't be bested, but so far they look like they're in the lead. Now let's talk briefly about what each company would get from Warner Brothers, why they're attractive. Paramount's looking to absorb Warner's streaming subscribers. And combined a Paramount Warner streaming service would have about 200 million subscribers, making it roughly even with Disney, but still behind Netflix at 300 million.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they got it.

[Scott Galloway]

They would also. The combined entity would be the most watched broadcast network and two of the five legacy film studios and eventually possibly even TikTok with the Ellison. Netflix wants Warner Brothers content studio and subscribers by absorbing, by absorbing kind of the high end content. You know, things like the Sopranos, Game of Thrones, the wires, Harry Potter, DC Comics. Netflix could force some subscribers to switch over. And Warner also holds rights in various markets for almost every sports league, which would bolster Netflix's entrance into live sports. Netflix though looks at this and thinks, you know, we've done really well staying focused. You might be overpaying. And as a result, Netflix shares fell 6% on Wednesday. And then Comcast wants Warner subscribers, but mostly it's ip. One of Comcast's biggest long term weaknesses is a lack of modern IP. They've got lots of legacy hits, films like E.T. king Kong, Jaws, but nothing on the scale of Disney like A Marvelous Star wars or Pixar or Warner.

[Kara Swisher]

Also for its parks.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones and theme parks are also one of Comcast's most profitable businesses. This acquisition would give them a lot of IP for, you know, Game of Thrones ride. Right. So this is. I find this fascinating. I got this wrong. I thought the Ellisons were going to walk away. It appears that, that everyone wants to take Lyn Sugimora to the junior prom.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, we'll end on that. Let me just say if I was compound, bring it on to Trump. That's what I would say. Go ahead. And by the way, let me make a little point here and it's someone I happen to like but the person who the lawyer, the general counsel for Paramount here is Macon Delraheim who was the person who lost the case for the Trump admin. He was at the Justice Department and he was. So he's the one doing this. So it's a really interesting situation. Sorry Macon, but return my call anyway. He won't because he's probably scared of the Olison's being mad at him. But he's a, he's a very smart guy. But he didn't win that case. So push back on this guy. Don't like put. Just push back. You might be able to win by pushing back. It's enough. It's enough saying daddy's friend. Daddy's friend is going to help us. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back very quickly. We're going to talk about Michael Dell's $6 billion donation for so called Trump account counts.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident. Confident you're finding top talent you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, LinkedIn says employees that hire through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through a leading competitor. That's a big deal where every hire counts. Hiring doesn't have to be complicated. When you have a business to run, you don't have time to spend hours on hiring. You certainly can't just wait around hoping the right person stumbles upon your job. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you can invite them to apply and keep things moving. Hire right the first time, post your job for [e-mail] pivot and then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com pivot to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Neiman Marcus. This holiday season, you can show the people in your life just how special they are with exceptional gifts from Neiman Marcus. From the ultimate stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts that surpass every expectation. Neiman Marcus has something extraordinary for everyone. And their style advisors can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point point totally effortless. So head to Neiman Marcus for a truly unforgettable holiday.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back. Tech mogul Michael Dell and his wife Susan dell have pledged $6.25 billion to fund 25 million Trump accounts for kids. The donation will extend the reach of the new child investment accounts beyond the pool made eligible by the big beautiful bill. Now most children 10 and under who were born prior to the qualifying federal date will receive received just $250. I don't know what you think of this. I feel like why don't we just tax Mel Godel properly as his fair share and then decide where to put the money, including towards kids. This is symbolic. He did one of those White House things calling it Trump accounts. The whole thing feels rather grotesque to me, but go for it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I think the Dell's look, I think if you give $6 billion to try and inspire saving and investing in the markets for kids, I think they deserve praise for this. I realize, I buy into the notion of what Anand Girdeda says, that if we're just reliant on the generosity of billionaires, they get to dictate social policy, not our elected leaders. And you're right, we should have a progressive tax structure such that we could figure out a long term solution. But I really find the criticism of the Dells unfair and really unproductive because at some point billionaires just say, okay, you win, I'm just not giving anymore. I don't think it's. I think they should be praised for this type of philanthropy.

[Kara Swisher]

Really. I feel like it's the company man giving out. Company, company towns. They were run by one oligarch, essentially in a lot of places. I'm going to let three people go to college and I'll decide. Meanwhile, keeping everybody down. Like, I just.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm sorry, but do you think they're trying. I think the system is fucked up. I agree that we need structural reform, but I don't think the Dells are trying to keep anybody down.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think it's just like, why don't you just get taxed normally and let our.

[Scott Galloway]

That's a structural issue.

[Kara Swisher]

I get that, but I. This whole like, performative calling them Trump accounts. You didn't have to call it that.

[Scott Galloway]

I agree.

[Kara Swisher]

Like, it's just like gross. It's just gross. If you want to give money, give money the way Mackenzie Scott does it. I'm sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, MacKenzie Scott gave $40 million to a teen suicide prevention charity I'm involved with.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, good. She's probably paying attention to you.

[Scott Galloway]

She is.

[Kara Swisher]

Because of Open Oprah, probably.

[Scott Galloway]

She is extraordinary. No, no, I can't take credit for it. I'm just one of their donors or smaller donors and I don't know her. So in no way do I want to in any way say that I was in any way had anything to do with this. I might be listening to you, but she is. Well, three years ago, who was my person of the year? Mackenzie Scott.

[Kara Swisher]

I gotta say that's who I want billionaires to be.

[Scott Galloway]

There's just no denying that when the female side of the partnership gets divorced from these these hundred billionaires, they immediately start giving money away. I mean, there does appear to be a difference in the way men and women approach their wealth and I would argue one is much healthier. Anyways, I love the idea in theory and that is I think one of the advantages that China has over the US is they think in 50 year increments. And I believe Social Security is totally unsustainable. And because it's so popular, because of the age of Congress and old people keep voting that I think we need to do similar to what Australia did and other places do. I would give $7,000 to every baby born. That's 40 billion. And then basically not let them touch it until they were 65 and it's a million bucks. And then within 30 years, when you saw the end of Social Security because we no longer need it, interest rates would come down and pay for the program. So I would want something on a bigger scale. Australia has something super return. I forget what it's called, but this stuff, I like it. I think we need something bigger and bolder that has a structural shift to get rid of Social Security in the long term such that interest rates start coming down in the medium term.

[Kara Swisher]

Those all sound great, but honestly, this is just for sucking up. Another suck up to Trump. That's what I feel like anyway. I don't think it's the best way to do it, that's all. And again, it's not capitalism as I see it. But let's go on to crypto. Bitcoin remains turbulent despite the crypto president being in office, down 30% from its peak at one point this week. Bitcoin in other crypto assets have endured bigger drops, losing as much as 80% of value and then turning around, as we know. But the market appears spooked and worried about a crypto winter. Billionaire Michael Saylor's firm strategy, which pioneered selling corporate debt to buy bitcoin, announced it raised $1.4 billion to ensure it can meet future payments. And Harvard, who had gotten at the wrong time, the school, increased its bitcoin investments to $500 million last quarter pensioning, leading to a 14% loss. Very briefly, let's do this real quick. What do you think about about this? This is an ongoing story we really need to be paying attention to.

[Scott Galloway]

So I like to call balls and strikes and I talk a lot about my personal finances to hopefully educate people and I like to call out my losses as my fails. I have not had any bitcoin Exposure. And then a few months ago I said, fuck, I need some exposure. I bought one of these bitcoin treasury stocks at 14 bucks a share. I think it closed today at $5.50. So I've had my stock, I got in at exactly me and Harvard got in exactly the wr.

[Kara Swisher]

They call you Harvard.

[Scott Galloway]

But having said that, I'm actually thinking about adding to the position because essentially bitcoin is an incredibly volatile asset and that's what young people like about it, or young people think this system's rigged so they've invented their own asset classes. But it's off roughly 25% from its peak in October. It's down 12% in the last month, but it's essentially flat from where it started at the beginning of the year. And it's the result of kind of a de risking trade that has been ripping through the markets. And bitcoin is an especially risky asset. It's a bit of a canary in the coal mine regarding how risk sentiment, risk on bitcoin goes off up, risk off bitcoin goes down.

[Kara Swisher]

Very Good point.

[Scott Galloway]

It's three times more volatile than the S&P 500. Retail participation in crypto is roughly two times that of US stocks. And the top 100 Bitcoin holders control about 15% of total supply.

[Kara Swisher]

That's incredible. Did you see the military is getting like, privates are getting into bitcoin. That made me like, okay, this reminds me.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, young men, man, risk aggressive. The risk aggressive brain.

[Kara Swisher]

Remember E trade and all that stuff? Day traders. I felt like, oh, oh, oh yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, I think the next big one, I think bitcoin's going to have oxygen taken out of it because I think the next bitcoin, the next crypto is going to be prediction markets. But anyways, the this also people use. So Here's a stat. 18 to 34 year olds make up 51% of all crypto holders. Adults 45 and older make up just 22%. So it's the opposite of stocks. And male users are about 2/3 of all crypto owners. And 73% of male holders report active trading versus just 48% of women. Folks, at some point we have to acknowledge, generally speaking, women are different than men.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Scott Galloway]

The way they approach philanthropy, investing, I.

[Kara Swisher]

Gotta say, you know, when you talked about that a couple months ago that you're investing, I thought I should maybe. And then I didn't. I said, too volatile for Kara Swisher. I'm going to sit on my pile of money and I didn't So a.

[Scott Galloway]

Friend of mine named Eric Jackson, who sort of this. He's this really interesting. I love Eric investor, nice guy. He and I became friendly back when I started L2. He's like, pounding the table, saying that this is an incredible buying opportunity and it's not financial advice. But I am going to add, where's Scaramucci? Look, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. So, yeah, it's off 25% in 60 days, but that takes it back to where it was at the beginning of the year. And I'm actually thinking about adding. I do think, I don't like these shitcoins, but I do think Bitcoin has become a legitimate asset class.

[Kara Swisher]

I will consider it, Scott. Probably not.

[Scott Galloway]

You know what? For me, it's a diversification play. Although it's not as diversified as people would like to believe. It's probably pretty correlated in the nasdaq, but it's been, this is a highly levered asset. So when things are good, everything's very good. And when things get. The sentiment turns against it. It gets especially. It's kind of the tail of the whip of risk, aggressive investing. I would argue, though, that the new crypto, and I've been thinking a lot about this, is going to be these prediction markets.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, that's a really smart. We'll talk about that more. That. That's an interesting time. I agree with you. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Costco coming after the Trump administration. Speaking of like, that we've had enough.

Support for the show comes from Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital. Sometimes the difference between success and failure comes down to one chance encounter. Or following a counterintuitive instinct or ignoring conventional wisdom to make a bold decision. Like when the founders of Palo Alto Networks wanted to redefine cybersecurity for the modern age.

[Scott Galloway]

Everybody thought we were crazy. Nobody would use the cloud for cybersecurity. And when I hear something like that, I say, of course I'm going to do it. You know, if everybody believes it shouldn't be done or it cannot be done, then you know it's a good reason to do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Or when mobile gaming giant supercell could only rewrite the rules of the industry after failure in the company's formative stages.

[Scott Galloway]

Many of the best things we've learned have actually come through failures.

[Kara Swisher]

These are crucible moments, turning points in a company's journey that made them what they are today. Hosted by Sequoia Capital's Roelof Botha. Crucible Moments is back for a new season with stories from Zipline, Stripe, Palo Alto Networks, supercell and more. Subscribe to season three of Crucible Moments. New episodes are out now, and you can catch up on seasons one and two at cruciblemoments.com on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Crucible Moments today.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Odoo Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other other one for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you find yourself drowning in software and processes instead of focusing on what matters growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. It's the only business software you'll ever need. Odoo is an all in one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. That means CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, hr and more. No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part is that Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or you're already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. It's time to put the clutter aside and focus on what really matters running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com foreign.

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Scott.

[Kara Swisher]

We're back with more news. Costco has sued the US Government for a full refund on tariffs it has paid if the Supreme Court rules them illegal. The complaint argues that Trump administration misused emergency powers to implement tariffs. Two lower courts have already ruled that Trump exceeded his authority. I love Costco. I love Costco, every bit of Costco. And I love how they're just like, yeah, we're liberal and that's the way we're going to stay. The same thing with there's several companies like that, like Patagonia and others. And they do rather well, both of them. What do you think of this? This is really interesting. I feel like it's time to fight back. It's time to like, that's enough, my friend. That's enough of your antics, your ridiculous taco antics.

[Scott Galloway]

If Hobby Lobby wants to take a more conservative approach to their business or if Target doesn't want to sell merchandise celebrating pride, consumers have the right to boycott them. They have the right to do that. I think private enterprise, unless it's discriminating against your customers or your employees, I think private enterprise gets to do what it wants. And Chick Fil A has always been known as being more conservative. You don't like Chick Fil A, don't eat a Chick Fil A. I got that from you. So as long as you're not discriminating based on, on employees or customers, and I think companies should have companies now, unfortunately for many of them, get position politically whether they want to or not, the smart ones try to stay out of that mess.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Scott Galloway]

But you're gonna have Trump a guy who left a trail of unpaid subcontractors and bankrupt casinos tell Costco how to run business. I mean, Costco's one of the most impressive retail companies in the last hundred years.

[Kara Swisher]

I love that they're suing him though. Like, you know what?

[Scott Galloway]

And do you realize that only I think it's only 2% of the revenues come from membership. Basically, Costco is we sell you everything at our cost and then you pay us whatever it is, our 180 bucks a year. And that's where we make all our money, is membership. It's only 2% of the revenues, but it's like half their operating profits. And the model is so genius. It's so simple.

[Kara Swisher]

But it's fun to shop. It's also a great product. Like, I don't just think, like, if it was kind of a shitty product and you have to drag your way through it. It's actually, actually so much fun to go to a Costco. And they have good hot dogs.

[Scott Galloway]

It's the only place where I go in for paper towels and I leave with a kayak, a gallon of salsa.

[Kara Swisher]

And a financial 900 croissants.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I leave with a kayak. I need peanut butter. I gotta buy this kayak.

[Kara Swisher]

Where's your kayak? I love kayaking.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you have a kayak?

[Scott Galloway]

No, I've been kayaking. That's the closest I think I've came to death. My buddy Doug Telcher at Berkeley decided we should go kayaking, and I took one lesson in the pool at the.

[Kara Swisher]

Flippy kind of kayak or the flat kayak.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, no, no, no. The hardcore, like down a river kayak.

[Kara Swisher]

That is. That is.

[Scott Galloway]

And I went down the American river and it had rained and I flipped over immediately and started hitting my head almost unconscious.

[Kara Swisher]

And you were in one of those little skirts, things like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, you gotta do a wet exit. And if you don't get out fast, you can drown.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, it's true.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my goodness. Anyways, Doug Teltra killed me.

[Kara Swisher]

No. Got caught in an eddy, as they say.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I like getting gas at Costco. I like to save 11 cents and wait half an hour.

[Kara Swisher]

I love Costco. Good for Costco. There should be more of this. Get in there. Comcast and Netflix. Call up your lawyers.

[Scott Galloway]

You know what? Also, they embraced when I was joking about Margie Taylor Greene. She has the energy of a woman who returns a half eaten rotisserie chicken to Costco.

[Kara Swisher]

Love that.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, so just so you know, but Costco, like Nordstrom has, basically, no matter what people return or how stupid it is, take it back. You could literally show up and hand them the ashes of your broken dreams and they'll still refund you. I mean, it's like, thank you.

By the way, I can't help this. One of my favorite retail stories is about Nordstrom and this guy. Every year they have an annual meeting and they bring all the managers and they're supposed to tell the most outrageous customer service story for a product. And one guy stood up and said, old man shows up, brings tires he bought at the store and they're bald and asked for a refund. And we gave it to him. And someone stood up and said, we refund you shit all the time. And he's like, we don't sell tires. And it ends up. It's the most lovely story. It was an old man struggling with dementia and he showed up with tires and obviously didn't know where he was. And the manager came down and gave him a $50 certificate and said, we're taking these backs. Here's the certificate. Can we call your doctor? Daughter? Can you imagine how loyal you are to Nordstrom if you're that family?

[Kara Swisher]

I spent time, a lot of time with the Nordstrom's back in the day. The original Nordstrom Pico.

[Scott Galloway]

I used to go to the one on Pico. I used to. Nordstrom was where the rich people and they had a piano player.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it had a piano. But you know the one in Seattle, one of the original.

[Scott Galloway]

That's where it was founded.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I spent a lot of time with the Nordstrom's. I loved dealing with them, I have to say. They were just loved. I went up to visit Jeff Bezos and I was like, ugh. And then I visited the Nordstrom was like, yay, that was my day. And then over to Microsoft, which was in a pleasant place and got yelled at by Steve Ballmer. See, that was my life back then. And anyway. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for this show comes from Atlassian. Wish projects could manage themselves with Jira AI powered projects management software. Keeping things organized and on track is a snap. AI agents manage the busy work, handling details that let your team focus on the work that matters. Now that's a team changer. Visit Atlassian.com Jira to learn more. That's a T L-A-S-S-I-A-N.com J-I-R-A Atlassian.com Jira Foreign.

Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com.

[Kara Swisher]

Every holiday shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family. Dog includes at Ross Holiday magic isn't about spending more. It's about giving more for less. Ross, work your magic.

Okay, Scott, let's hear predictions. We've been saying predicting stuff, but by the way, another lawsuit. I predict New York Times just sued the Pentagon for infringing on First Amendment rights of being able to cover stuff. There's gonna be a lot more lawsuits by companies now against Trump. That's my prediction. Everyone's like, that's enough, dude. I call it the this guy situation. This guy. I'm gonna sue him anyway.

[Scott Galloway]

When I was living at home with my mother and had no, nothing going on when I was like 24.

By the way, I was one of those men I talk about all the time. I used to go to Nordstrom and cosplay someone who had their shit together. You just feel like when you're in there, you must have your act together. Yeah. Because you're buying like $90 sweaters and you're like, I must have my act together. I'm a Nordstrom.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And yeah, it was. Or my favorite was I would go into the fragrance section and just take every fragrance and I would. It was like a chemical ambush. I'd start seeing my ancestors and my credit score at the same time.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, fragrance masking.

[Scott Galloway]

All right. My prediction is the following. Hegseth, Patel, and RFK are out within the next 30 days. I think Trump has absolutely no loyalty. He. His administration is tanking. He's going to have to face potential allegations of war crimes. The economy sucks. Tariffs aren't working.

[Kara Swisher]

So Patel, Hegseth.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I think he's going to do one fell swoop. I think he's going to within a week of each other, I think. And a lot of presidents have done this. Presidents usually kind of go a year, two years, and they say, okay, it's time to calibrate, and they let some people go. Go. I think Patel has got sort of an internal revolt on his hand. Ton of former.

[Kara Swisher]

He's incompetent.

[Scott Galloway]

FBI professionals are saying, this is dangerous. We are focusing on the wrong things. And this organization, which is one of the most competent professional and effective organizations in history, has been essentially neutered. And then I think he's going to find. I think he's. Why not do three at once? And Hegseth Patel, rfk, I think are all out with this.

[Kara Swisher]

RFK not known. Interesting. I'm going to go with known.

[Scott Galloway]

Home, I think he likes. Yeah, maybe I'll go three of the four. That's a good one.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, RFK would be great because he's paid no price. All these other people have paid a price, including Kara Swizzlestick.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay. And, I mean, it's hard to pick which one is your favorite. How about the guy who took $50,000 in cash in a paper and a lunch bag?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, home. And he'll probably make him the head of Homeland Security. That's what he'll do. That's a Doritos bag or whatever the fuck you got. Anyway. Okay. That's a great prediction. I like. I like it.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you think?

[Kara Swisher]

Stick with that. I like it. I think you're right. All right, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever is on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 855-51-Pivot elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe. This week on Prof. G Conversations, Scott spoke with Ann Applebaum, one of my favorites staff writer at the Atlantic, about the business interests driving US Russia negotiations, European power, and America's slide into kleptocracy. Let's listen to it. Clip.

[Scott Galloway]

What's disturbing about this episode is that it shows something very ugly about this.

[Kara Swisher]

Administration, namely, and it raises a question, you know, in whose name are they.

[Scott Galloway]

Conducting American foreign policy?

[Kara Swisher]

Is this for the security and prosperity.

[Scott Galloway]

Of America and our allies?

[Kara Swisher]

Or is this something that's happening on behalf of.

[Scott Galloway]

Of companies, maybe even some involving the.

[Kara Swisher]

Family of Trump or of Witkoff, who are hoping to make money out of this negotiation? You think? Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. There you go.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, I love Van. That was a great interview, by the way. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. By the way, Happy birthday to Dr. Jeffrey Swisher. He's 65.

[Scott Galloway]

Scott J. Swish.

[Kara Swisher]

Jay. Swish.

[Scott Galloway]

D. Swish.

[Kara Swisher]

Medicare. Jeff. Go for it, Scott. Read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Amen, Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Lonina Todd entered this episode. Manola Moreno edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Misivero and Dan Shalon. The Shot Kuros, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week and weekend.