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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
Support for Pivot comes from Attio. Attio is an AI native CRM built for the next era of companies. Its powerful data structure adapts to your business model, syncs in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches everything with actionable data. Attio's AI research agents tackle complex work like finding key decision makers and triaging incoming leads. You can also create email sequences, real time reports and powerful automations, all to help you build what matters your company. You can join industry leaders including Flat File, Replicate, Modal and more. Go to attio.com pivot and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's a T T I O.com pivot.
- [00:45]
Scott Galloway
Support for this show comes from ServiceNow, which is enabling people to do more meaningful, creative work. The work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of the business. It, hr, customer service and more. And that means your people can focus on the work that they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get started@servicenow.com AI agents. You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook meat. Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietitian approved, chef prepared and you plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with Factor. Learn more@Factor Meals.com Keep going for Big.
- [01:49]
Katie Drummond
Balls Tesla, Sexy LLC and Big Balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.
- [02:00]
Scott Galloway
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off today. Who knows where he is, but in his place we have someone so much better. Katie Drummond, the Global Editorial Director of Wired. Wired has always been a powerhouse, but particularly in the era of Trump, Elon and Doge, which I'm calling Doggy Now. And his coverage has become required reading. Katie, welcome. You've had a busy couple weeks with all these scoops on Doggy which led to a record breaking increase in subscri. We'll get to that in a second, but welcome. Thank you for coming.
- [02:32]
Katie Drummond
Thank you so much for having me. I am also in a mysterious location but I'M not going to tell you where I am either.
- [02:38]
Scott Galloway
Okay. All right. Well, you're here at least, as opposed to whatever the hell Scott's doing, taking edibles and not skiing wherever he is. So I want to talk a little bit because you guys have really come on strong here. Now, tell me about your approach to covering this administration. Now, you became global editorial director relatively recently, right? Is that correct?
- [02:58]
Katie Drummond
Uh, yes. Time is a funny thing these days, but it was about a year and a half ago. It was September 2023. Um, I got the job. I started, and. And actually the second. My second day on the job, I emailed my boss. My boss is Anna Wintour.
- [03:15]
Scott Galloway
That must be fun.
- [03:16]
Katie Drummond
It's. It's actually delightful. She's amazing. Um, and I said, I need to hire a politics team, and here's why and here's what I want to do. So it was. I'm happy to talk more about it, but it was sort of from inception, I think, looking ahead at 2024, which was obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world at the time. In my head, it was much more about generative AI mis and disinformation, hacking and those sort of tech adjacencies to politics. I wasn't thinking, well, obviously Elon Musk is going to jump in and end up, like, sleeping at the White House. That wasn't on my radar at the time. But certainly our coverage has evolved a great deal since then.
- [04:04]
Scott Galloway
And why did you have that instinct? Because of AI around the world, regulatory issues that was the focus was that everybody's going to be focused in on what AI means and the governments included.
- [04:14]
Katie Drummond
AI was a major catalyst at the time. And I think my feeling was, you know, Wired covers a lot. I think Wired being described as like, a tech outlet is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees. But you can't separate technology from politics anymore. And so it just felt like we had the tech industry coverage, we had the consumer tech coverage, we had the science coverage, we had all this other coverage, but we were missing this really important piece over here that made everything kind of click together. Like, you can't cover artificial intelligence without looking at, well, how is it being used in elections? How is it being regulated? How are politicians talking about this technology? So it just felt like we needed that political expertise.
- [04:57]
Scott Galloway
So when did you sort of get the idea that you should really look at Doge? Cause I think it's really. I mean, I'm feeling like, how did they get into this usaid, where did you get this? All this stuff that you were getting, and the identities and information about all these people that were working for it. Because that's years of beat reporting, essentially. I mean, I was trying to figure it out. I'm like, wow, they were up to speed, Speed rather quickly and rather accurately on what's happening. What was the strategy there?
- [05:26]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, no, I would love to say it was years of beat reporting, because that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at Wired, is the notion of each reporter owns a beat. We believe in iterative reporting. So what that means, essentially, for someone who doesn't work in journalism, is you break off pieces of a story, you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time, and that reporting builds on itself and builds and builds and builds. You don't wait. You know, I think it was over the summer when now President Trump was shot in the ear. You remember those. The photos, the raising the fist, these sort of iconic images that I said to the staff, there is a very good chance that this person is president again. There's a very good chance that he wins, because that was such a seminal moment in this election. And shortly after was when Elon jumped in, endorsed Trump, and really started, like, running into that campaign with, you know, I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions, and obviously a lot of contribution via his megaphone on X that he uses. So it was at that moment that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk, and we had to really focus on Trump as probable President elect. And so at that point, you know, we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in government, like Elon Musk as political operative. That is your beat. That is what you own. So that was in July. So, you know, we had a lot of lead time to start sourcing up, because it was over the summer that we said, everybody here, no matter what you cover in some way, shape or form, what you cover will be impacted by a Trump administration. So you need to start working on that now. And people did. I mean, they did. And so we were prepared, I think, in large part because of that, and then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team, including Zoe Schiffer, who joined us in January, who knows a lot about Elon Musk. I mean, she wrote a whole book about him acquiring Twitter. So I think we had the political aspect of it staffed up and running. We had the tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon and When you combine all of that together really forcefully, which I think we're very good at, being very forceful. We just ran at that story like we ran at that story.
- [07:46]
Scott Galloway
That's interesting that you were forceful, because I get what you're doing. Because we've done it. We did it previously at All Things T with Uber or Yahoo. Whatever the story was. It's nothing like this story. I'll tell you. This is quite. I wouldn't even know what to do with this story. But talk about forcefulness, because it's really important to have an editor who is. You're a critical part of this, as I know. Cause I've been there. Not on this big a story. But talk about the idea of forcefulness and aggression in doing that. Not in a negative way.
- [08:16]
Katie Drummond
No, I love forcefulness and aggression. I mean, gosh, that's such an interesting question. I think that I am a forceful and relatively aggressive person. And I think that my enthusiasm for news and for scoops comes through very loudly and very clearly to the team. And I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do, which was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry. Like, that is what I'm interested in doing. And so I have been very clear about that from day one.
- [08:48]
Scott Galloway
And another thing is people do try to stop you. They say, why are you being so aggressive? And I think people don't understand that. When we were very aggressive on Uber and what was happening there with Travis Kalanick, a venture capitalist approached me at a restaurant called Murad, and they said, when are you going to stop being so hard on him? And I said, when he stays down.
- [09:08]
Katie Drummond
I didn't know what to say.
- [09:10]
Scott Galloway
And they were like, well, that's rude. Like what? Like, I'm sorry, he's a terrible CEO. He's doing terrible things, and he's not staying down. So when he's. When he stays down, that's probably when we'll stop. Or even beyond. It was an interesting. It's hard for people to understand. Do you feel pressure yourself? Because this is big stakes. I mean, that was just. That was just Uber, like, who cares kind of thing. I don't mean to say who cares, but you know what I mean? This is the bigs. This is really the bigs. Do you personally feel pressure when you. Or do you feel that you have to pull back anyway? I've noticed a pullback among certain people, for sure.
- [09:45]
Katie Drummond
No, no, no. And it's not even some grandiose notion that I have I mean, I remember when we published that, one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers, and it was an explosive story. We got a lot of criticism. And it's not that I was surprised by any of it, but I just hadn't. Like, the idea of softening that story had not even entered my mind. And I don't say that to brag. I say it because we're just like, this is the job. I get paid to do this. This is my job. I take my job very seriously. I love what I do. But I have not thought for a second that we should soften anything that we're doing. I think what we owe our audience is very clear, very transparent, like, very direct coverage and explanations of exactly what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it. Like that's all we're doing.
- [10:47]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, exactly. One of the things that was the attacks were so disingenuous. You're saying who they are. You were not saying little pricks or anything else. I was saying that. But you were very clearly just saying, this is. Who's working on this stuff. This is the federal government. It deserves transparency. And those attacks were disingenuous. I mean, he attacked Elon, attacked Scott and I for being mean to them or something like that. It's part of a narrative they have, trying to get on how these poor kids, how dare you attack these poor kids kind of thing.
- [11:19]
Katie Drummond
Right. I mean, the notion that there is something illegal about naming individuals working within federal agencies at the behest of Elon Musk is nonsense. Like, I just. I don't even. I don't even understand what that means.
- [11:31]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, exactly. And those stories were anything. So let's go into some of these stories, because I think it's really. People are sort of. It's a breathtaking level of scoops, I have to say. It's really. And I think a lot of people are doing a great job now.
- [11:42]
Katie Drummond
I do, too.
- [11:42]
Scott Galloway
And what's interesting is they've stepped up since you stepped up. It actually creates an energy around the coverage itself, which I think is. I've noticed. Just today, I saw about three stories elsewhere, and I was like, this would only be because Wired's been so aggressive.
- [11:58]
Katie Drummond
I appreciate that.
- [11:59]
Scott Galloway
But you can feel it. You can feel it. But people were slow to the idea of what's happening here. So it's been a month since Trump took office. There's a lot happening in the land of Doge Doggy, as I say. So let's dig in. One shocking thing we Learned this week Elon Musk's apparently not in charge of Doggy. The White House said in a court filing that Elon Musk is not the US Doggy service administrator. I'm sorry to say it that way, but I'm gonna keep doing it. He's an employee in the White House office, akin to a senior advisor. Talk a little bit about this, and I'm going to go into some of your stories, too, but talk about what you thought. Is this the loopiest of loopholes? The White House can stand up Legal trouble. Several states attorney generals argued in a suit last week that Elon is wielding power that can only be held by elected officials and people. Confirmed by the Senate. But a federal judge ruled there isn't enough evidence for irreparable harm to justify a temporary restraining order. This is a legal nicety. The judge also expressed questions about what the White House was doing.
- [12:54]
Katie Drummond
Yes, questions isn't quite taking it far enough, I don't think, at this point. But I'm not a judge, so my understanding of this, I mean, first of all, it is chaos across the board. It's like, wait, sorry. The President of the United States has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, that he runs Doge. He's in charge of Doge. Elon's doing this thing. Elon's making these decisions. All of a sudden, in a court filing, we now have the White House saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's just like, helping out. He's just helping the president. That is just, first of all, total chaos. Second of all, my understanding of that sworn statement, just to be clear, it is a sworn statement, is that essentially that allows Elon to continue doing what Elon is doing within these federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for overstepping in a role that to what you just said ought to be an elected position. Like, he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way, shape or form. Instead, he just walked right in the front door. And I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on.
- [14:16]
Scott Galloway
So Wired published a story this week about a law that could possibly stop some of Doggy's actions. Explain that. Explain what you were doing. Because you are building. You're building a case, right? In your own way, in a journalistic way.
- [14:29]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, I think trying to. You know, there have been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what Doge is doing. What Several of them have in common is that they rely on this Watergate era law, the Privacy act, that essentially prevents government employees from accessing Americans data in a variety of different ways. So it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from agents within the U.S. government. And so essentially we have lawsuits saying everything that's happening here, sort of the access that Doge appears to have within these agencies is a violation of this Privacy act that was instituted several decades ago. Whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these lawsuits is an open question. And I think one thing that's interesting to me, and I think troubling to me, is that that argument could succeed in one instance, let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the Treasury Department, and it could fail in another instance. So let's say access to IRS data. Right. So you have this sort of like Band Aid slap dash approach to trying to just like stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible. But how do you stop them from accessing data wholesale on sort of like a holistic level? I don't think we have an answer to that.
- [15:57]
Scott Galloway
Do you have a legal reporter? How do you? Because I think the lawsuits will reveal a lot, but it's the slowest of dealing with a very difficult situation.
- [16:07]
Katie Drummond
It's the slowest way. And certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide by the rulings of the courts. Right. I mean, I think that's an existential question for the country. You know, we don't have a legal reporter. We just have really, really smart security and politics reporters and, you know, a team of managers on top of them, who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with. And we make a lot of phone calls. So we talk to a lot of experts, experts who know this stuff inside and out and can essentially help us translate all of that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand what is happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening.
- [16:49]
Scott Galloway
So you use the word chaos a lot. It's important. This is one of Elon's signature moves. Chaos. To create chaos or create trouble and then make accusations. He's got six or seven moves, including attacking you for revealing the names, for example. But chaos is the point here, I think, in many ways. So that everyone has to run around and do these band aid approaches.
- [17:10]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, it's interesting too, because chaos is also a signature move of President Trump. And so we're sort of seeing chaos in a big Picture way across the entire federal government, the entire federal apparatus. Doge being one pocket of chaos that like sits within the larger chaos umbrella. So it's just like chaos everywhere you look. And I actually think my sort of theory is that at least some of the chaos being created by the Trump administration in a big picture way is distracting people from the nitty gritty doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this sort of simultaneous and concurrent way. So I actually think like a lot of the, it's like the Gulf of America, all of the craziness of distraction. Yeah, yeah, the DEI stuff, as awful as it is, I think these are, you know, Canada is the 51st state. Like these are distractions. While 25 year old engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans.
- [18:23]
Scott Galloway
Can you give people a sense of why they want that? I have a theory, but what is their need for getting that to get to the data?
- [18:34]
Katie Drummond
That's a really good question. If I had an answer to that question, I would be publishing a story. I mean, if you say that they want to train AI on American's data, I will smile and laugh and freak out. Although I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I mean, I just, I think that Elon Musk wants complete and total control of the entire federal infrastructure and apparatus. I think that sort of, that's what the driving force is here. I don't think he's in it for his contracts. I don't think he's in it to make Tesla a more successful company. I think he's in it to run the thing the way he runs every other company in his portfolio. Whether or not he wants that data to train an AI, I think is an open question. But I'm curious to hear what you think it does.
- [19:25]
Scott Galloway
Vaunt grok ahead, which is not ahead. Grok is not ahead, but it vaunts. He puts him in a pole position because as you know, many AI researchers think we're running out of data. Right. That's been the big discussion recently. Well, there you go. And you're right, he does. But for what purpose does he want to run it? That's the part that's going to be very difficult to report when you're thinking about it in that term.
- [19:49]
Katie Drummond
Well, and you have a better sense of his psychology than I do, but there certainly seems to be something very, very deeply buried inside of him that just wants to run everything. I mean, it just feels like pure.
- [20:02]
Scott Galloway
Ego or he wants to go to Mars and he needs the government to do so. There's all kinds of theories on that. So let's talk about the relationship you mentioned between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. They sat down for a joint interview with Sean Hannity, the House. The House reporter there at the White House. And I mean that in a negative way. Hannity felt. Said he felt like he was interviewing two brothers. Hannity. It was the biggest wet kiss. He licked them up and down the entire time. Elon shared how much money he's trying to cut from the deficit. Let's listen.
- [20:31]
Kara Swisher
Well, the overall goal is to try to get a trillion dollars out of the deficit.
- [20:36]
Katie Drummond
And if the deficit is not brought.
- [20:38]
Scott Galloway
Under control, America will go bankrupt. This is a very important thing for people to understand.
- [20:43]
Katie Drummond
A country is no different from an.
- [20:44]
Scott Galloway
Individual in that if an individual overspends.
- [20:47]
Kara Swisher
An individual can go bankrupt and so can a country.
- [20:51]
Scott Galloway
God, that's the idiot's guide to how countries are run. But that's not correct. That's not correct, but. Well, Doge says it saved $55 billion in federal spending so far. The actual data shows it's much less. One major error found on the Doge website. It mislabeled the contract as 8 billion when it was actually 8 million. You all have been doing a lot of reporting around this, this idea of what the cuts that are being made. And NPR just did one showing the same thing, that this is not $55 million. And of course, now they're also talking about sending people dividend checks, which is trying to make people happy with them and allowing them to keep doing what they're doing. It's come rather early. The payoff has come rather early. But talk a little bit about this and what these young people are trying to do. And are there more of them moving into the space now that it's gotten momentum?
- [21:44]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, from everything we can tell, you know, Doge is expanding. I mean, the budget for Doge, I think, last week expanded to the tune of several million dollars, which. Which strongly suggests that they are onboarding more personnel, that they're bringing more people in. Not exactly a model of efficiency themselves if they continue at this rate. But, you know, essentially what we have been able to establish, like there's a pattern to what they are doing. Right. So they gain access to an agency. They gain access to, in particular, I think, systems that contain, you know, personnel files, personnel data about, you know, who is a probationary employee, for example. Right. So that's someone, as the Trump administration recently changed the rules around this. Someone who has, I think like in a. They made the probationary period one year instead of two years, I think, which basically allowed them to fire more people. So they're going into these agencies obtaining data about personnel and salaries and then they are just, you know, pushing through like sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers across, you know, every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day. Right. I think that has become like the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is doge is now inside X agency doing Y layoffs. Like that's, that is the story. The reality though is first of all to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil servants without really having an in depth understanding of what each of what they do, what it even means to be in a probationary period, because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted. So you have people who have been 10, 20, 30 year government workers who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired first of all. So there's that whole hot mess express over there. But when the rubber hits the road, like when you look at the math, like when you do the numbers, firing a bunch of civil servants isn't going to get you a trillion dollars. Like that's not where the money is. And so you have these sort of these big promises, these sweeping claims about savings from like we cut this contract. We don't subscribe to Politico Pro anymore. Look at us go look at all the people that we're firing. That doesn't actually add up to that much money. And so I think the, the question is like, where are you planning on finding the other like $92 billion that you need to find to get to a trillion dollars?
- [24:20]
Scott Galloway
When you are looking at who is doing this, it's indiscriminate because they're also inexperienced. The, the ve people who are doing this is also. You're doing the vetting. Wired is doing the vetting. And a lot of them have sort of what I'm not surprised by, but typical obnoxious tech bro behaviors, you know, in terms of being on certain sites doing certain things.
- [24:41]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, Wired is doing the vetting. To the credit of so many other journalists too. I mean, other news organizations, you know, Wall Street Journal, very notably Bloomberg, have been been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well. I think one thing that's important to note is sort of how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place. So we published a story I think 10 days ago about essentially former interns at companies like SpaceX or Palantir going to online forums for alumni of those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing like a spray and prayer. Hey guys, does anyone want to save the federal government like DM me and we'll get you like onboarded with Doge. So that appears to have been, you know, the very sort of elite hand picked recruiting process was actually just, you know, posting in message boards. From there it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was an interview process, whether there were background checks, security clearances. I mean, we published a story about one of these guys who goes by big balls. We've all heard about big Balls. Everyone has talked a lot about big Balls. But you know, we talked to several, I think three or four different experts who said it is very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a federal agency. Like, it would not happen. This guy has been involved in not criminal enterprises, but at the very least like criminally adjacent enterprises. He has, you know, he's running, you know, web domains out of Russia. Like he is doing all sorts of really bizarre, sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing a background check before allowing a new federal.
- [26:28]
Scott Galloway
Loves that.
- [26:29]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, it's this sort of like reckless disregard for any standards in terms of who you're bringing in.
- [26:35]
Scott Galloway
And explain why he wants those young people to do it. I know why. Because the older people wouldn't.
- [26:42]
Katie Drummond
Older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon. Right. And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space, what he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online, he's an icon, he's an idol. I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon. They are doing it for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States. I would imagine for a 19 year old who, you know, runs a company called Tesla Sexy llc, probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure to be on with Elon Musk.
- [27:24]
Scott Galloway
It is, it is, it is. And yet older people just wouldn't. They do have older people, as you've noted and others have reported, very sophisticated lawyers and everything else. Someone who's not hiding, as discussed for Elon, is Steve Bannon. Which is interesting. Bannon called Elon, I think, in this week, a parasitic illegal immigrant, though he did compliment Doge, and he said Elon wants to play act as God. He does seem to be a fan, as I said, of Doge's work. He told cnn. Let's listen. Elon's doing some great work. You know, I'm a huge supporter of the deconstruction administrative state and what Elon's doing in. In Doge.
- [27:59]
Katie Drummond
I'm a big supporter of that, I hope. And my prayer is, is that these cuts are real.
- [28:05]
Scott Galloway
So Bannon later called out Elon, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos as oligarchs who don't support the MAGA movement. What is going on here? I think he would turn and be pals with Elon in five seconds. No question with this guy.
- [28:17]
Katie Drummond
I mean, my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was inside of the inner circle. Right. And has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.
- [28:39]
Scott Galloway
He'S sitting in front of the Resolute desk.
- [28:41]
Katie Drummond
Yeah. I think that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess.
- [28:50]
Scott Galloway
Right, right. And try. That's what those compliments for. When you think about those who are pushing back there, are there really true people pushing back and what can be done? Obviously, Scott makes fun of the people, the Democrats standing in front of agencies and yelling. But, you know, there is something to protest, obviously. Is there real pushback within the. Within the government and within technology circles? They just seem to be quitting. A lot of the techies who are in there are leaving, are going.
- [29:16]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, Yeah. I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of, you know, leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that we're seeing that play out. I think what we're seeing, to your point, are politicians standing up outside of offices in D.C. and making a fuss and making noise, which. Fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that, I think having those clips on social media, there's value there. Obviously, we're seeing people take to the streets and protest in, I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest. And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. And then we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies walk. We're seeing them walk publicly. Right. They're not being shy about why they're leaving. And I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer, I think, with integrity, hold the office that they hold, that the only choice they feel they have is to leave. On the flip side, though, what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these leaders within these federal agencies to put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands. So that's essentially what that means. They just opened up the headcount and that's a good thing.
- [30:59]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. Among the biggest people is the cyber people. They're terribly worried. That's the ones who are sort of sounding the alarms in terms of the porousness of what's happening here.
- [31:09]
Katie Drummond
Yeah.
- [31:10]
Scott Galloway
All right, we're going to a quick break. We come back, more about Doge Central and Wired's amazing reporting. Support for Pivot comes from Deleteme. You might be surprised how much of your data is on the web. You might be even more surprised to know that data brokers collecting that personal information make a profit off it. They treat it like a commodity where anyone can buy your private details, which can lead to identity theft, phishing attempts, harassment, and unwanted spam calls. But now you can protect your Privacy with DeleteMe. DeleteMe sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it and what they removed. It isn't just a one time service. Deleteme is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. I've actually been using Delete Me for a while now, and I have to say, it's a really astonishing thing how much of my personal information is there and collated the way it is together and how much of it is wrong and at the same time how much of it is right. To put it simply, Delete Me does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites, you can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount to our listeners today. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go join DeleteMe.com pivot and use the promo code PIVOT at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go join DeleteMe.com pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot code pivot.
- [32:42]
Kara Swisher
Support for Pivot comes from Vanta Trust isn't just learned, it's demanded. Whether you're a startup founder navigating your first audit or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta to establish trust by automating compliance needs across over 35 frameworks, including SoC2 and ISO 27001, centralize security workflows, complete questionnaires up to five times faster, and proactively manage vendor risk. Vanta not only saves you time, it can also save you money. A new IDC white paper found that Vanta customers achieve $535,000 per year in benefits, and the platform pays for itself in just three months. You can join over 9,000 global companies, including Atlassian, Quora and Factory Hughesvana to manage risk improvements security in real time. For a limited time, Our audience gets $1,000 off vanta@vanta.com pivot that's V A N-T A.com pivot for $1,000 off.
- [33:47]
Scott Galloway
Support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's a quick jaunt or a long journey, no matter where you're going, the all electric Equinox EV allows you to travel with confidence, comfort and connectivity. Equinox EV comes equipped with a standard 17.7 inch diagonal color display touchscreen, making it the largest center screen among EVs in its class. Its sleek lines and a commanding stance define the exterior of Equinox ev, while the no Compromises interior has a cargo room and storage that let you do you at a starting price of around $34,995. Equinox EV a vehicle you know, value you do expect and a dealer right down the street, you can go EV without changing a thing. Learn more@chevy.com Equinox EV Based on latest competitive data, the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price Katie we're back. There's obviously been a lot of questions you mentioned about conflicts of interest since Elon came to Washington. I agree. I don't think his big thing is to make money, although he doesn't mind doing it. And he's supported like, he's using threats to push X. He's using threats to this and that. He's doing the typical shakedown kind of thing that can happen. Wired has done some new reporting on SpaceX engineers and the FAA. They're also putting his people within the FAA. And also apparently President Trump's trying to get him to figure out why he doesn't have his jet. Like, he's putting him on that, too. Talk about that. I'll note SpaceX launches are regulated by the FAA and the agency has alleged that SpaceX violated safety rules in the past many times. Talk a little bit of this story today.
- [35:32]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, so. Oh, I mean. And as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. So We've identified several SpaceX engineers who were onboarded into the FAA this week. Even as the secretary of Trans, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said, we've got some engineers from SpaceX, they're taking a tour of some facilities, sort of like nothing to see here. Meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the faa. And so these are engineers. I think it's important to be very clear that these are people with legitimate qualifications. Right. I'm not talking about 19 year olds.
- [36:20]
Scott Galloway
Who have decided to put up a rocket.
- [36:22]
Katie Drummond
Right. These are people who, you know, work at SpaceX. Like they make rockets, go into the sky and then come down. But there are obviously, you know, several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that, you know, Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's very clear that the FAA has been understaffed and spread way too thin for far too long. Right. There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time. So the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that The FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So the idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to, try to, quote, fix that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I Just find the idea of someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs commercial aviation, that's genuinely a very scary prospect.
- [37:41]
Scott Galloway
Yeah. And it's happening all over the government. Obviously, you guys have been reporting on that. And again, who's running SpaceX and Twitter and all these other. Obviously Steve Davis, who's been a very active Musk minion. What is the point here of putting them there? Just for eyes, I assume. Eyes and ears.
- [38:00]
Katie Drummond
Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders. Right. I mean, they're there to carry out Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly apparently not in charge of doge. I think we all know that. That that's a lie. It's an interesting characterization that doesn't seem reflected in what's actually going on. I mean, look, I think they're the adults in the room. I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be.
- [38:28]
Scott Galloway
What's the impact on the companies? Because, by the way, Tesla's not doing great. By the way, they're not. But what is happening at the companies when they pull these people out?
- [38:39]
Katie Drummond
I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great. But we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So I think it's hard to say what's happening at the companies, especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty. Right. I think we had an example a week ago. I believe it was a DOGE operative within the Technology Transformation Services who had kept his job at an external company while fulfilling this role for musket federal agencies. So it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and work several jobs at the same time.
- [39:16]
Scott Galloway
Could he put. He could put them in every agency. His own employees. Correct. That are beholden to him and nobody else.
- [39:23]
Katie Drummond
He could. And that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen DOGE operatives, I call them operatives because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them. Like, they have multiple email addresses. So you have people working within 2, 3, 4 agencies at any given time, multiple email addresses. Apparently sort of acting out the asks of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is a terrifying proposition, honestly.
- [39:52]
Scott Galloway
And who is coordinating all that? Elon is not doing this alone. Who do you think is the most critical person helping him coordinate this.
- [39:58]
Katie Drummond
I think, in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is, I think, shorthand for that would be like. It's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, most recently at xai, and she's there as chief of staff. So she's really sort of like running point. You know what a chief of staff does? I mean, they sort of, like, keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it of the federal government. So I think that she is like a very critical linchpin in this. Then you also have the gsa, which is the General Services Administration, and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from where they are stationed. But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to, just in the sense that she is really the operational leader working within that agency.
- [40:59]
Scott Galloway
And he always has those. He has those all the time that are loyal to him. What people have to understand, they're loyal to Elon Musk, not Donald Trump. These were not Trump supporters, and neither was Elon for a long time. So I want to ask you about President Trump, because what is his role in here? Last week, he's channeled Napoleon posting he who saves his country does not violate the law. He was trolling people with that. He also called himself King on Wednesday as he tried to kill congestion pricing in New York. He's busy. That interview was really something. It doesn't seem like he knows what Elon is doing. That's my impression.
- [41:29]
Katie Drummond
Everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know how often to be communicating with Doge. They don't know what that process is supposed to look like. It really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead, and the actual White House, the actual administration, is behind. They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as the press is, as journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out what Elon has been up to, despite any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge. It really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on. And frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares.
- [42:19]
Scott Galloway
And why do you think he's allowing this to happen?
- [42:23]
Katie Drummond
Wow, that's a great question. I mean, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell. He's telling US citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting cost. He's telling them that he is very close to tech and to sort of tech leadership and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24 7. I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's inescapable.
- [42:54]
Scott Galloway
So yeah, it's a great narrative.
- [42:56]
Katie Drummond
I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.
- [43:03]
Scott Galloway
Nothing at all. All right, Katie, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about X's new valuation.
- [43:12]
Kara Swisher
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- [44:06]
Scott Galloway
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- [45:09]
Katie Drummond
The PC gave us computing power at home.
- [45:11]
Scott Galloway
The Internet connected us, and mobile let.
- [45:13]
Katie Drummond
Us do it pretty much anywhere. Now generative AI lets us communicate with.
- [45:17]
Scott Galloway
Technology in our own language, using our own senses.
- [45:20]
Katie Drummond
But figuring it all out when you're living through it is a totally different story.
- [45:24]
Scott Galloway
Welcome to Leading the Shift, a new.
- [45:26]
Katie Drummond
Podcast for Microsoft Azure. I'm your host, Susan Ettlinger. In each episode, leaders will share what they're learning to help you navigate. Navigate all this change with confidence. Please join us, listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
- [45:42]
Scott Galloway
Katie we're back. Let's get to a couple more headlines. Elon Musk X is in talks to raise money from investors at a valuation of? 44 billion. If that number sounds familiar, it's because it's the same price. Musk bought the platform back in 2022. In December, Fidelity Investments marked down its stake in the company by 70%. This follows a trend of Musk's company valuations soaring since he's taken a significant role in the Trump administration. Even if the companies are suffering such Tesla numbers are down and the price was up. X is not in the same place it was pre Elon. It's smaller today. The Wall Street Journal published a very good story about X people pressuring advertisers to get back on or else maybe they'll face an investigation or they'd be added to a lawsuit that they're doing. They're using a lot of legal means to try to force advertisers onto what is clearly a less good platform. Talk about this. Although again, it's not not for him to make money is not maybe his guiding role. He certainly is doing it. And here's a perfect example of it.
- [46:37]
Katie Drummond
Here's a perfect example. I mean this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. I mean, it is for all intents and purposes a right wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You know, you could pay people on X, they're going to introduce audio and video, they're going to integrate it with Grok AI Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the President. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors I would imagine is very appealing. And for investors and advertisers, you know, the sort of, the implicit or direct threats that are, you know, reportedly being made. So it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump. It's that in some instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice.
- [47:44]
Scott Galloway
Right? They are going to either pay or pay or not. But we're gonna, you're gonna be in trouble in some way. Let me read you some someone. I asked them about this today. I think this dynamic's playing out that every advertiser who knows what they're doing, no media buyer, indeed no marketer, once their CEO, a call from Elon Musk berating them for not advertising on X. It sounds judgment to avoid by throwing some money to the company. Everything about this I loathe. It creates bad precedent, it puts money in Elon's pocket, it undermines the advertising business. I think it's just prudent business. I heard stories that the team is making veiled threats. Perhaps not so veiled threats and I think it will ultimately bite them someday. But this is a classic story of corruption, that it's just a kind of thing like that. You cannot build businesses on threats. I mean, you can't, but you can actually.
- [48:33]
Katie Drummond
I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here. To be clear, what's happening here is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that and sort of think about it across many, many companies, across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that. This is what is happening to our country X is a microcosm of that. Right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations, bending a knee and saying like, oh, oligarchy, like, okay, let's. Sure, I guess we don't have a choice. So hands up. Up. We're going to go along with it.
- [49:27]
Scott Galloway
They are saying. I've heard them say it to me. We don't have a choice. We can't do it right now. We can't do anything about it. Is there anyone else trying to take advantage? Obviously, all the tech leaders showed up at inauguration in that shameless display of fealty.
- [49:40]
Katie Drummond
I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook from inauguration, he looked physically ill and somewhat. But he was there. But he was there. And let history show. Let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn. Knock on wood. He was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there. Sam Altman, obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, was there and then subsequently polished the President's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and the world. Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this. And I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so. It's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think, really importantly, with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and for everybody to remember. As the years go by and more, there's more and more chaos and we're doing more and more. When the dust settles, don't forget that they were all there. Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the President of the United States. The influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions of people. Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month.
- [51:15]
Scott Galloway
Is there any resistance in tech at all besides Reid, Hoffman and maybe Mark Cuban?
- [51:21]
Katie Drummond
None that I have been able to discern. I've talked to a lot of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record or talking to their comms people. And the message to me has been very clear when we go on the record, don't ask us about politics. They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it. And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016, when a lot of them were talking about it. I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump administration, with regards to the president's comments on immigrants, people from garbage countries, whatever shithole countries. You know, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of crises over the next four years. I really believe that.
- [52:12]
Scott Galloway
So, last question here. The Democrats, I don't think, were as close to tech as people thought it was. I thought Obama was in that regard with Eric Schmidt and others. Do you think it's a wholesale change? I think it's an opportunistic change. The joke I make is that if Kamala Harris won, Mark Zuckerberg would be asking us to call him. They themselves. Yes. You know, I don't think it's anything other than that, because I don't think they're committed in any way. And I think Steve Bannon's right. They're not MAGA friends. They just are opportunistic in that regard. Is there an opportunity for Democrats in that way besides giving these toddlers what.
- [52:46]
Katie Drummond
They want, you mean, to get closer.
- [52:48]
Scott Galloway
To the tech industry, back to closest, or do you think it's an overall shift that's permanent?
- [52:53]
Katie Drummond
I don't think it's an overall shift. I think you're right that this is like company before country. Right. This is opportunistic. What's best for Meta in this specific moment, in the context of the number. Right. It's about the bottom line. It's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. It is absolutely opportunistic. But I think to be able for the Democrats to be able to create an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when, beyond some, like, sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out in D.C. outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all. I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders, so that hopefully in three and a half years, we're in a very different position ahead of the next US Election. But it's very hard to see that happening right now because I Don't see much happening at all.
- [53:58]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree. Okay, Katie, it's time for this week's Threads poll result. Last week we asked you all what you wish Democrats were doing in response to Trump administration. That's why I was asking about that. Here are a few responses. Kerry said, replace Schumer's entire comstache with Pete Buttigieg from Marina primary. Retire all those old white men and support young, ferocious, fearless candidates. And Nick said, talk like human beings. Stop fundraising texts. Demonstrate understanding of urgency. We know the house is on fire. We want to see firefighters nurse versus cops. Good answers. Kind of with you were saying. I think this is right. It's the elderliness of it, the tone, definite. The lack of social media. I think the Republicans are excellent on social media and comparatively. And the Democrats certainly aren't as much. Some are. Certainly are. Do you see anybody being very promising? I mean, Pritzker suddenly sort of of developed a backbone and is using social media a lot. Obviously AOC uses it. Is there anybody? And how important is that going forward?
- [55:04]
Katie Drummond
I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. I think he knows how to create a viral moment. He's very well spoken, he's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party, obviously. I think that AOC is tremendous. I think she is articulate, she is forceful, she is accessible. I think what she does on vertical video on social platforms, in terms of communicating with her audience is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of. I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's grassroots digital outreach. Right. It's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms, where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now and sort of really genuinely acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader. I think the Democrats need more to the point of one of the commenters really sort of high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now waving.
- [56:14]
Scott Galloway
Scott says waving their hands. They're canes at people. I would agree. I actually see Chris Murphy doing some interesting things. There's a bunch of them. There's a bunch of them. But it has to be coordinated in a way that. And you still have the power of the Rogans. Although he's slipping a little bit. You're starting to see slippage with him. I think the audience is up for grabs, that's for sure, if they wanna have the right questions. All right, now for this week's questions for our audience. Do you think China will agree to the sale of TikTok under the Trump administration? Katie, I want your response very quickly on this one.
- [56:47]
Katie Drummond
One, no.
- [56:48]
Scott Galloway
And so what happens?
- [56:49]
Katie Drummond
What happens? I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is. Is very dubious in its legality. And I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokers some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States. I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down. So I think he brokers some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though, is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And we at Wired, I will say we do not know.
- [57:30]
Scott Galloway
And do you see any person besides Larry Ellison rising to the front? I've said Musk, obviously, because he's acceptable to China.
- [57:38]
Katie Drummond
I think Elon Musk, I think Larry Ellison, I do not think as much as I really like Frank McCourt. And I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and intelligent person. I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way.
- [57:51]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I think it's probably gonna be the Elon thing once again because he's gonna fix everything. And it's good for Twitter. It would be good for Twitter because that's an actually good product as opposed to Twitter. Visit us on Threads ivotpodcast official to answer so we'll hear the answers that we get from listeners. If you've got a question of your own or you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com pivot, submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. All right, Katie, one more quick break. We for your prediction.
- [58:22]
Katie Drummond
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Kara Swisher
We're taking Vox Media Podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin for the south by Southwest Festival March 8th through the 10th. What a thrill. Chicken fajitas, queso strawberry Marshall margarita, extra shot of tequila. There you'll be able to see special live episodes of hit shows, including our show Pivot. Where should we begin With Esther Perel, a Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, not just Football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet. The Vox Media Podcast stage at south by Southwest is open to all south by Southwest badge holders. We hope to see you at the Austin Convention center soon. I'm not joking. I love love south by Southwest. The people are a ton of fun. It's a great time. If you do come, come up and say hi. Visit VoxMedia.com SXSW to learn more. That's VoxMedia.com SXSW.
- [60:22]
Scott Galloway
Okay Katie, let's hear a prediction. You are Scott Galloway today.
- [60:26]
Katie Drummond
Okay, I'm going to offer a completely insane, please improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful and real bummers for everybody. And I'm sorry about that. So here's my prediction. One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches onto an idea or an ideology and he sticks with it and he goes really, really hard at it and then he changes his mind. It has happened before. My prediction and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and make fun of me for how wrong I was. Something will happen. Whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in maga world within sort of the Trump orbit. Something will happen and he will pivot back to a more progressive, more left leaning, Dem centric ideology and he will do away with this sort of like hardline extremist far Right. Approach. This is. I am giving you a very optimistic. A very optimistic prediction.
- [61:29]
Scott Galloway
And it's just your wish. Your wish that he. That he will do this.
- [61:33]
Katie Drummond
I think there is a 1% chance that it will happen, and so I'm using it as my prediction.
- [61:37]
Scott Galloway
He used to support. I just was looking at texts he sent me about the climate change thing. He was all over.
- [61:42]
Katie Drummond
Exactly, exactly.
- [61:43]
Scott Galloway
He was so upset in the text, like, that. Trump was doing same thing, oddly enough, with gay and lesbian stuff.
- [61:49]
Katie Drummond
I think it's important for people to remember that he was not always this way. It was not always like this.
- [61:54]
Scott Galloway
Well, he was a little bit. This.
- [61:55]
Katie Drummond
He was, but he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016. So I am saying there is a 1% chance that he moves in the other direction.
- [62:05]
Scott Galloway
Well, we'll see. I don't know what could happen. Getting off the evening activities. I don't know what could happen.
- [62:12]
Katie Drummond
I don't know. You never know.
- [62:14]
Scott Galloway
His daughter is nice to him. Who can't stand him.
- [62:17]
Katie Drummond
Exactly. You never know. You never know. If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything that you never know. I did not know.
- [62:27]
Scott Galloway
He is consistent. Donald Trump is consistent. He has not changed one bit. Except he's got a rich friend that he uses as a cudgel on everybody else. But we'll see. That's a really good one, Katie. I like it.
- [62:37]
Katie Drummond
Thank you. Thank you.
- [62:38]
Scott Galloway
I like it. Excellent. I like it. We'll see. I will have you back in six months if that happens.
- [62:42]
Katie Drummond
Wonderful.
- [62:42]
Scott Galloway
All right. I just want to say, absolutely. Stellar coverage. You are. You guys are not just a scoop machine, but the context, and you're sticking to it. Let me ask you a personal question. Are you worried in any way for yourself with all these threats, as people ask me that a lot. Because when he recently threatened Scott and I, and I was like, oh, did he? Like, okay, like. But it's not something that's not, in my mind, legal action or, you know, pressure from people. I have seen it. I'm seeing it happen. I was supposed to appear with someone, they pulled out. They're like, oh, you're too hot. Like. And I was like, I don't think you mean that in a nice way, like, kind of thing. And do you feel pressure not to keep doing what you're doing?
- [63:24]
Katie Drummond
I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing. I think what I feel is concern for the legal and digital and physical safety of my staff. I worry. I'M a mom. I have a family, and I bring my mom energy to work. And I care about them. I worry about them. I worry about myself and my family to a degree. And of course I worry about it. But the thing is, there's nothing inaccurate about the journalism. There is no everything. As I have said before. I mean, and this is such a cliche thing for an editor in chief to say, but we stand by the reporting. It is rock solid. There is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some detrimental way. And so I have to just stick with that and keep going. And I think that's for the entire newsroom.
- [64:20]
Scott Galloway
Yep. I used to tell that to our reporters. You just have to get it right. It has to be right.
- [64:24]
Katie Drummond
It has to be right.
- [64:25]
Scott Galloway
You cannot make a mistake with these people because the minute you make even just the slightest one, you know you have an Achilles heel showing them, they will come for you, and that's what they'll do. But still, there are issues. I think you're right to be concerned about digital issues, about hacking, about legal attacks and stuff like that. And so that's why it's all the more courageous for what you and others are doing in terms of. And keep going, keep going for big balls. I don't, you know, and the fact that you couldn't. I'm sorry. It was so good. We shouldn't laugh at this, but come on, how good is that?
- [64:56]
Katie Drummond
Tesla Sexy, llc.
- [64:59]
Scott Galloway
I know.
- [64:59]
Katie Drummond
Big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts. Yeah.
- [65:05]
Scott Galloway
You like it A little bit? You like.
- [65:06]
Katie Drummond
Oh, I love it.
- [65:07]
Scott Galloway
You love doing it. Okay, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you, Katie.
- [65:39]
Katie Drummond
Thank you.