Elon Merges Companies, WHCA Cuts Comedian, and Guest Co-Host Jen Psaki

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary: "Elon Merges Companies, WHCA Cuts Comedian, and Guest Co-Host Jen Psaki"

Release Date: April 1, 2025 | Hosts: Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway | Guest: Jen Psaki

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Introduction of Guest Co-Host: Jen Psaki

The episode kicks off with Kara Swisher welcoming Jen Psaki, the host of MSNBC's "Inside with Jen Psaki," as a guest co-host in Scott Galloway's absence. Kara highlights Jen's transition from political communications to media, praising her for bringing fresh perspectives to the show.

Career Transition and Launch of "The Blueprint"

Jen Psaki delves into her career shift from serving as Joe Biden's press secretary to hosting her own media platforms. She discusses the challenges of adapting to television, such as mastering the teleprompter and finding her authentic voice. Jen introduces her podcast, "The Blueprint," originally intended as a short series but expanding due to positive reception.

Jen Psaki [03:12]: "The Blueprint is how do Democrats win again? So reflecting on what just happened, what people got wrong, but also looking ahead to what to change moving forward."

Trump Administration’s Communication Breakdown

The conversation shifts to the Trump administration's handling of internal scandals, specifically the potential firing of National Security Adviser Mike Waltz and Defense Secretary Pete Haig's controversial meetings involving sensitive information.

Jen Psaki [09:33]: "Every president I worked for is pissed off when the press rates things about them that are negative, even if they're entirely fair. But Trump is uniquely against the freedom of the press."

Jen outlines standard protocols during political scandals, emphasizing the lack of coordinated communication in Trump's team, which contrasts sharply with previous administrations.

Legal Pressure on Law Firms by the Trump Administration

Scott Galloway introduces the topic of Trump’s executive orders targeting specific law firms, aiming to punish those representing adversarial groups. Jen criticizes this approach as undermining the rule of law.

Jen Psaki [14:20]: "Making these sort of frontal deals with law firms feels counter to the rule of law... There's not a Democrat who's tried to do that."

They discuss the broader implications of such actions, noting that forcing law firms into compromising positions sets a dangerous precedent for presidential behavior.

Elon Musk’s Political Maneuvering and Company Mergers

The hosts analyze Elon Musk's substantial financial contributions to a conservative candidate in Wisconsin's State Supreme Court race, describing it as part of his broader political influence. They also delve into Musk's strategic merger of his social media platform X (formerly Twitter) with his AI company XAI.

Scott Galloway [34:30]: "He's just putting money from one pocket into the other. And he may... bring Tesla in on this too, merging it into Tesla and then giving it an AI value."

Jen expresses skepticism about the financial motivations behind Musk’s moves, questioning whether these mergers obscure underlying business issues rather than addressing product improvements.

Tesla Takedown Protests and Democratic Strategy

The discussion turns to the widespread protests against Tesla, branded the "Tesla Takedown Movement," which aim to discourage purchases of Tesla vehicles and undermine Musk's influence.

Jen Psaki [31:04]: "It is taking the energy and anger that you are seeing from a lot of Democrats out there and directing it at Tesla now."

Jen suggests that while the protests are a valid expression of dissent against Musk's practices, they might benefit more from focusing on broader political issues like Trump's policies. She emphasizes the need for Democrats to channel their activism towards more impactful areas.

White House Correspondents Association Cancels Comedian Amber Ruffin’s Appearance

A significant portion of the episode addresses the White House Correspondents Association's (WHCA) decision to cancel comedian Amber Ruffin's appearance at their annual dinner following criticism from the Trump administration. Jen criticizes this move as capitulating to political pressures, undermining the tradition of using comedy to satirize the presidency.

Jen Psaki [43:40]: "This is agreeing to the terms he wants at a dinner that is supposed to be about preserving the value of the freedom and independence of the press."

Kara and Scott debate the implications of this cancellation, highlighting concerns about press freedom and the WHCA's response to political intimidation.

Trump’s Pattern of Pardoning Convicted Fraudsters

The hosts examine President Trump's recent pardons of individuals like Carlos Watson and Trevor Milton, analyzing the pattern of granting clemency to convicted fraudsters. They discuss the potential motivations behind these pardons and the broader impact on presidential accountability.

Jen Psaki [39:22]: "It's like he wants to validate his alliances with controversial figures... It's about validating him."

They consider how these actions might influence future administrations and the precedent they set for presidential pardons.

Merging of Elon Musk’s Companies: X and XAI

Jen and Scott delve deeper into Elon Musk's decision to merge his social media platform X with his AI company XAI. They debate whether this move is a strategic financial maneuver or a means to enhance AI capabilities within his business empire.

Scott Galloway [34:30]: "It's just putting money from one pocket into the other. And he may... merge it into Tesla and then give it an AI value."

Jen remains critical, suggesting that the merger may not address the operational challenges of either company and could be primarily for financial repositioning.

Elon Musk’s Influence and Potential Fallout

The discussion explores Musk’s dual role as a tech mogul and political influencer, questioning how sustainable his alliances with political figures like Trump are, especially if their interests diverge.

Jen Psaki [27:51]: "If Musk feels like a political problem to Trump... he won't be as around as much in the orbit."

They speculate on the potential consequences if Musk and Trump were to have a falling out, considering the impact on both political dynamics and Musk’s business ventures.

Protests Against Elon Musk and Tesla: Democratic Perspective

Jen and Scott assess the effectiveness and motivation behind the protests targeting Tesla and Musk, debating whether they serve as a constructive outlet for Democratic anger or merely distract from more pressing political issues.

Jen Psaki [31:04]: "I kind of wish these people were protesting about Trump and Social Security or Trump and something else."

Jen emphasizes the need for directing activism towards issues that have more substantial political ramifications.

White House Briefing Room and Media Access Issues

The hosts critique the current state of the White House briefing room, noting how the Trump administration has altered traditional media access, potentially sidelining independent and state-run media in favor of more favorable outlets.

Jen Psaki [49:06]: "They've essentially let in half state-run media to be the dominant sources of information in the pool."

They discuss the implications for press freedom and the necessity for media organizations to adapt to ensure transparent and unbiased reporting.

"Wins and Fails" Segment

In the concluding segment, Scott and Jen share their perspectives on recent political developments:

• Wins:

  • Republican Senators Defying Trump: Scott praises Senators Lisa Murkowski and Dan Sullivan for their independence and willingness to push back against Trump, highlighting their courage in maintaining integrity within the Republican Party.

  • Emerging Democratic Voices: Jen celebrates the re-emergence of figures like Tim Walls and Greg Kazar, who bring fresh and relatable voices to the Democratic discourse, focusing on issues that resonate with everyday voters.

Jen Psaki [58:49]: "Greg Kazar... speaks in plain English about how things impact people."

• Fails:

  • Democratic Leadership on Social Security: Jen criticizes Democratic leaders, particularly Chuck Schumer, for failing to effectively address and campaign on critical issues like Social Security, missing opportunities to engage and mobilize voters.

  • Amanda Ruffin’s Cancellation: She reiterates disappointment over the WHCA’s cancellation of Amber Ruffin’s appearance, viewing it as a setback for press freedom and media independence.

Jen Psaki [60:31]: "Chuck Schumer... is disappointing... We have to learn some lessons."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jen Psaki [09:33]: "Trump is obviously uniquely against the freedom of press."

• Jen Psaki [14:20]: "Making these sort of frontal deals with law firms feels counter to the rule of law."

• Jen Psaki [31:04]: "I kinda wish these people were protesting about Trump and Social Security or something else."

• Jen Psaki [43:40]: "This is agreeing to the terms he [Trump] wants at a dinner that is supposed to be about preserving the value of the freedom and independence of the press."

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Conclusion

This episode of "Pivot" provides a comprehensive analysis of the intersecting worlds of politics, technology, and media. With Jen Psaki joining as a co-host, the conversation offers nuanced insights into the Trump administration's communication struggles, Elon Musk's political entanglements, and the evolving dynamics between the White House and the press. The hosts emphasize the importance of strategic activism, media independence, and principled leadership within both political parties.

For listeners who haven't tuned in, this episode delivers a detailed exploration of current events shaping the political and technological landscape, enriched by firsthand experiences and expert commentary from Jen Psaki.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

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[Jen Psaki]

Jevon, your blinds.com design consultant. Oh, wow, a real person.

[Scott Galloway]

Yep.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm here to help with everything from.

[Scott Galloway]

Selecting the perfect window treatments to.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I've got a complicated project. No problem. I can even help schedule a professional measuring install. We can also send you samples fast and free. I just might have to do more. Whatever you need. So the first room we're looking at is for shopblinds.com now.

[Scott Galloway]

And get up to 40% off with minimum purchase.

[Jen Psaki]

Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply.

[Scott Galloway]

I can't prove, and neither can anyone.

[Jen Psaki]

Else, that a computer is alive or not, or conscious or not or whatever.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, all that stuff is always going to be a matter of faith. But what I can say is that this emphasis on trying to make the models seem like they're freestanding new entities does blind us to some ways we.

[Jen Psaki]

Could make them better. So how can we make artificial intelligence better?

[Kara Swisher]

That's this week on the gray area.

[Jen Psaki]

New episodes every Monday.

[Scott Galloway]

He also wore a cheese head at one point. And he didn't look bad in the cheese hat. I'll be honest with you, most people.

[Jen Psaki]

Don'T look good in cheese heads, so I guess that's a pro.

[Scott Galloway]

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off today. I got someone much more superior. I brought in Jen Psaki, the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki, who also has a new podcast, the Blueprint, which is excellent. I recommend everyone to listen to it. We're doing a little crossover event. Because I was on her show this weekend, she promised to bring dirty jokes in Scott's absence on the show. Welcome, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, Cara. First of all, as a listener, as I told you yesterday, I was like, I have to bring inappropriate jokes and inappropriate things to be said. But I don't know. I don't know that that's my vibe. I'm just trying to be my authentic self.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you have. Do you have a dirty joke that you promised on the air last night?

[Jen Psaki]

I really don't, but maybe the conversation will bring me around to it. Okay. Maybe it'll bring me around to it too. I'll feel free to say inappropriate things. I feel freed. Feel freed on your podcast.

[Scott Galloway]

All right. I mean, we've got a lot to get to today, but, like, how is it going there? Now explain what you're doing. You're doing 103 shows for MSNBC, is that correct?

[Jen Psaki]

Or what's the approximately.

[Scott Galloway]

What's the stitch?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, right now I'm doing a show on Sundays. I'm doing a show on Mondays. They're a little different because Sundays, which you were on yesterday, it's a different thing. People are sitting down with their coffee. They want big picture. That's what we try to do. And Mondays is just what the hell just happened today. So it's a little bit different. I have a podcast called the Blueprint.

[Scott Galloway]

Explain what the Blueprint. Why it's called the Blueprint. You and I talked about this.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I mean, the Blueprint was my form of therapy. I don't know if you find podcasting to be therapeutic, but for me, it was after the election and I, like many people, I was like, what the hell just happened? I wasn't shocked, but I just felt like so many things were missed, including by me. And so many things I got wrong. And I. So for me, my therapy was making a list of people who I felt would be candid, say what they actually thought, not pretend like they know all the answers. Cause no one does. I made kind of a list. I like write everything on note cards. I'm like an old lady. But I made like a back of the envelope list of people. Some of them, I think you know all of them. Right. It's like people who would just say what's on their minds. You know, Jemele Hill, Rahm Emanuel, Don Lemon. None of these people are holding back. So we did that. We were only gonna do six episodes. We ended up doing nine. And we're gonn going to reboot it in the fall.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, great. So why the blueprint? Explain for the kids who don't know what a blueprint is.

[Jen Psaki]

I know. I think you told me. We talked about this and you're like, it's a very old timey phrase.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, we're Gonna do. We're gonna do the horse and carriage, guys.

[Jen Psaki]

Like so many people, I consult with the great Kara Swisher about, like, every career move and thing I do in my life.

[Scott Galloway]

We're gonna do the mimeograph. That's what I said. I said, remember the m. What if.

[Jen Psaki]

We call it the record player? Would people relate to that? The blueprint.

[Scott Galloway]

They're back. They're back. Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

I know that, you know, my daughter has.

[Scott Galloway]

The blueprint is not back, but go ahead.

[Jen Psaki]

We're bringing it back. We're bringing it back. All right. Okay. The blueprint is how do Democrats win again? So reflecting on what just happened, what people got wrong, but also looking ahead to what to change moving forward. And there's a lot of criticism people have for episodes we've done so far, which I think is healthy. People don't all disagree with each other either. And that's kind of the point. So that's the purpose when you're thinking.

[Scott Galloway]

About this, your transition from politics. You know, it's been a while. You and I met right before you started, after you left the White House. What's it been like for you, shifting over?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, the initial stages were a combo of. I literally had never seen a teleprompter before. Right. I didn't know what it looked like. And it's not the most important thing, but you want to be functional enough on it that it's smooth. And the biggest part of it is if it's your own words and your own voice, which sounds obvious, but it isn't always. So. Learning how to use a teleprompter, Read a teleprompter, and really learning how to write for tv, which is different from writing for a politician or writing a book or writing an op ed. So that was its own kind of technical transition. I also think when you transition careers, sometimes you think you have to become a version of what you see. Right. Like, I have to look at anchors and be an anchor, and really, you just have to be yourself. And it took me a while to feel comfortable. Not too long, but a little bit comfortable in what that meant. And in some ways. And the other thing I was very mindful of that I, when I started was I'd obviously been Joe Biden's press secretary until a couple of months before I started and until about eight months before my show started, and I didn't. I think you and I talked about this. I was thought a lot about not wanting to be perceived as his spokesperson, but also not being inauthentically. All of a sudden I'm down the middle. Cause I'm not, you know, I mean, I've worked in politics for 20 years. I'm not down the middle. I have points of view. And so that was its own kind of journey for me. Now when the debate debacle happens and I said what I saw, as everybody saw, that maybe broke the fever of that. That wasn't my intention. But now it's a little different because we have a new. I mean, our new show, it's gonna be at 9 o'clock on Tuesdays through Fridays. It's launching in May. And one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is that I kind of shied away from talking as much about my own experience and my experience in government and politics. I do sometimes. But now it feel like there is this real hunger. And I know this anecdotally. I know this from people who message me on social media or email. I know this from people I run into the airport. How the hell does this work? How's this supposed to work? What's broken and what's not? And I think I didn't, Lord knows, work for the current president. There's many, many Democrats. That would be funny.

[Scott Galloway]

That would be a great choice.

[Jen Psaki]

That would be funny. My God. Many, many Democrats who may run for office president one day. Who the hell knows? I root for all of them, but I don't have any dog in the fight. You know what I mean? So now I feel like I can dive back into that a lot more.

[Scott Galloway]

And give your expertise.

[Jen Psaki]

And give my expertise. And I think I shied away from that initially because I was so worried about being perceived as kind of this continuing spokesperson.

[Scott Galloway]

Right, right. So we're gonna give you a little workout today on that. So you have a lot to get to today. So including Tesla, protests worldwide, Elon buying his own company in a weird kind of flim flammy kind of thing, and Trump's latest partnering spree. And we're also gonna talk a little bit about the White House Correspondents association, which you have had a lot of experience with.

[Jen Psaki]

I have thoughts on all the things.

[Scott Galloway]

Good. Oh, great. Okay, so let's first talk with the latest with Signal Gate. I call it Whiskey Leaks. So you can call it whatever you want. I love that one.

[Jen Psaki]

I like that. Whiskey Leaks. It's good.

[Scott Galloway]

Come on. I'm sorry, Pete had that. But you deserve it. This weekend, there are reports that Trump was asking around for opinions on whether he should fire National Security Adviser Walz. But when Asked by NBC, the President said he doesn't quote fire people because of fake news and witch hunts. Defense Secretary Pete Haig says is really helping the we're not messy cause by reportedly bringing his wife to two meetings with foreign military counterparts where sensitive information was discussed. So talk about this like you've been in there where there's been a gate, blank gate, whatever it happens to be. Every administration has them, something occurs. What happens inside versus outside. And this is a unique president who just doesn't wanna give in to the media. I think that is a bigger than people realize. But neither did Biden, right? Biden probably doesn't either, right?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, no president does. First of all, every president I worked for, two are, they're all pissed off when the press rates things about them that are negative, even if they're entirely fair. What you know now he's Trump is obviously uniquely against the freedom of press. I would say people may argue that, but I think that's a fair statement. Now normally in a case like this, what would happen is you have a scandal, a controversy, whatever it may be, you get together. In this case, if it were, let's just say normal times for a moment, I would have gotten together with Jake Sullivan and the national security team and Anita Dunn and Ron Clayton and we all would have talked about like what actually happened here. You want to have a full understanding of the full damage, right? So it's not drip, drip, drip. This is the biggest Communications 101 mistake is not having a whole understanding of all of the things that could come out. And in this case it would have been what were the other signal chains? Which is probably knowable internally. But Mike Waltz also had that Automatic delete after 30 days. Administration's 60, 70 something days old. Right. And they had access to classified information during the transition. So it could have even gone beyond that and you would have decided kind of what are we gonna say about it? Is it something the press secretary says? Is it something Jake Sullivan comes and talks at the briefing about and then I answer questions and then you, before you any of that, you go get it approved by the President. That's a normal process, right? There's no doubt that's not what happened here, but that's what you would normally do.

[Scott Galloway]

It looks like everyone was freelancing because he had that disastrous. Waltz was disastrous. Even on Fox News, he was disastrous. If Laura Ingraham doesn't believe your line of bullshit, you're kind of fucked.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, and Kara, I mean if you start your answer with something about like Some people say I'm a conspiracy theorist. Or there's a. Then you sound like a conspiracy theorist. I mean, it's like, you know, what are we? So, yes, they're all frail and sand.

[Scott Galloway]

And Pete Hegseth was freewheeling somewhere.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, Pete Hegseth went out. I mean, there's the crazy video from last week after Jeffrey Goldberg had put out the full. You don't have to call them war plans. They're specific logistical military attack details. Right after that had already been out on the Atlantic. Pete Hegseth went to the cameras. You know, he talks very loudly and aggressively when he's trying to deny something, which he has a lot of experience doing. But he went out and denied it. I mean, it's just. But I also feel like this whole thing of if they just admit that there was a mistake and then we'd move on. I don't think Democrats would have, and I don't think they should have. I mean, this is just kind of like a fuck up, right? A fuck up.

[Scott Galloway]

So what happens now? What happens now when it's still here, it still hasn't left? It's a little bit like a sore that won't heal.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I mean, I think there's a question, right? Does Mike Waltz survive? He's the easiest one to fire because it's not a confirmed position and any president can name anyone they want to that position, just like any other political appointee in the White House. People can hate the choice, but he's the easiest one to fire. Pete Hegseth is probably the one who's more justified to be fired. I mean, you could argue whatever, because he's the one who put the information on there. But then he's gonna nominate a new defense secretary. And I think all the reporting, which I think is true for any president, is you step away from a cabinet member and that makes you look weak, too. So that seems to be part of the discussion, I would bet. Plus getting someone to confirm for that job.

[Scott Galloway]

So brazing it out is a better tactic here.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, look, if he fires Mike Waltz, then he just names another national security advisor, right?

[Scott Galloway]

So they don't mind shoving him out.

[Jen Psaki]

But I don't think they will. I don't think they will. Do you?

[Scott Galloway]

Yep. I don't think they will.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't think. I think he'll survive it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, exactly. So more on Trump's feuds with lawsuits. Wilmer Hale and Jenner and Block have sued the Trump administration over executive orders targeting them for employing attorneys or representing groups. He doesn't like. Since being in office, Trump has signed five executive orders targeting law firms with punishments. One firm, Paul Weiss, got out of Trump's crosshairs by agreeing to perform $40 million worth of pro bono work for Trump Friendly causes. Scadden, another major law firm, has agreed to provide $100 million of free legal work. Federal judges have temporarily blocked Trump's efforts to punish Wilmer Heron, Jenner and Block and others like Perkins Coey are push. Do you. How do you think about this? Because this is something maybe you wished you could have done in the Biden administration, but you're always. And a lot of these firms are doing it for financial reasons, because clients will leave them if they don't have security clearances or if the Trump administration is hostile to them. So they would see an exit of clients, presumably.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, which is why they're doing it. Right.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't think we ever would have wished we would have done. Could have done it. I'm not. And maybe I'm tight. Maybe some people did. I just feel like it's got. That's such a bad. It's kind of counter to what most presidents argue they're for.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Which is kind of rule of law. And you can be pissed off about what courts do, but it doesn't mean you ignore it and it doesn't mean you pressure law firms not to represent clients. I mean, it's. I think it's. I mean, there's lots of things to be worried about right now, but this is one. I think that's a legit one to be worried about because.

[Scott Galloway]

Tell me why, from your perspective?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, because I think you have these law firms who are making a business decision, not a crime, but also one where it's a version, in my view, of obedience in advance. It is deciding that in order to survive, which they have to do as a business and as a law firm, you are going to agree to things that you wouldn't normally agree to and you give Trump power over you. And I think for any president, that's dangerous. We have Democrat or Republican, but there's not a Democrat who's tried to do that. So that. What. But what do you. Does it concern you?

[Scott Galloway]

Even if they lose because the judges are pushing back on these things, it will have done business damage to these companies, these law firms, and so it doesn't matter. And then I think later administrations, including Democratic ones, will be looking at a lot of these moves and thinking this worked. Maybe they may not have the permission structure Trump has, but it's not something once it's crossed, you're like, huh, could I do that? Even if you say I'd never do that, you kind of are like, I could maybe have a little more influence over irritating lawyers or irritating press people, so maybe I'll sue a little bit more. I think it opens a floodgate of behaviors. And I think if Democrats think they never do it, I think they're not telling the truth.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't. I think some Democrats would do it. I just maybe I just think though, it's kind of. What I mean is if you're kind of an arguing part of your argument is I believe in kind of the rule of law and I believe in kind of the legal system, then making these sort of so frontal deals with law firms feels counter to that. I mean, so I don't know. I guess there's lots of things Trump does and that Trump administration does that maybe do open floodgates, but not in this case.

[Scott Galloway]

So one of the things that's interesting is which firms are agreeing and which firms are not agreeing.

[Jen Psaki]

That is interesting to me.

[Scott Galloway]

That's really like, why has these others saying no fucking way and the others are going along with it. And that to me is a really interesting. And then what it does to their businesses. Because I don't mean to be rude, but I don't find lawyers to be the most backbone y of people like journalists are a different thing. When they start suing journalists, they may stick together, although we'll get to that later. They aren't, in the case of the White House correspondents, they're not joining as a group. But I do think that they. I'd really like to understand why other, you know, even though they're trying to stop these punishments and federal judges are blocking these efforts, why certain groups did it and certain groups didn't because presumably they all have the same business problem going forward.

[Jen Psaki]

Do you think they're making a business calculation of their own that they can get. But it's like liberal causes. How does that make them the same amount of money as businesses that, I mean, you know, you see this in kind of the consulting world, right. Which is like, it's really hard. Not woe poor Democrats. But what's true is it's very hard to get hired right now as Democrat.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And person who's left the Biden administration, no matter how good and whatever your skill set is, because every company is like, we need closer ties to Trump.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. Not to you.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, that's every calculation. Now, these things are cyclical well, let's hope they're cyclical. I will hope they're cyclical, but, yeah, I would. I guess it's a. It's a calculation of that sort. But what businesses? What. I don't know. What do you think what businesses are going to be like? Well, they're. They're not falling. They're. They're not falling prey to this. So I'm going to go with them.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know. If I was a law firm, it's four years. I better do what he wants for the next. And then later I'll get.

[Jen Psaki]

Or at least the next year and a half or two. Right. Because then, who knows? Right.

[Scott Galloway]

Payback can be a bitch.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, yeah, The House could be controlled by Democrats. It could be a little bit more.

[Scott Galloway]

Like, you know, we're gonna investigate why you gave in here.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Scott Galloway]

So it's coming and going. It just. I think it does create a really interesting situation for Democrats to. Whether they're gonna be as bullying going forward. And you don't think they will? I think they will. I think, you know, maybe I'm naive.

[Jen Psaki]

About the law firm thing. You are naive. I may be. I do think they're gonna be more bullying about other things, the law firm thing. You're right. Like, they're businesses. They have to make calculations. And maybe, I don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, where they're attacking is law firms, judges, media. It sort of makes a lot of sense. And it's very strict. It's a very strict effort to, like, stymie law firms from defending press people, for example, things like that, or taking.

[Jen Psaki]

On clients that would remotely offend the Trump administration.

[Scott Galloway]

That's correct.

[Jen Psaki]

So is that what you want to agree to? And that does. I mean, again, I mean, doesn't it feel counter to why people say they went to law school?

[Scott Galloway]

Yes, it does, but that's. They also like money quite a bit. Jen, I don't know if you know that.

[Jen Psaki]

I understand that.

[Scott Galloway]

We'll go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon hits the campaign trail in Wisconsin and also acquires his own company.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for Pivot comes from the podcast Tech Unheard. We live in complex times. Technology is evolving faster than ever before, and the people driving that evolution can seem distant. TechUnheard is a new podcast that puts you right in the room with the people shaping the future of technology. It's hosted by Rene Haas, the CEO of arm, one of those companies on the leading edge of tech innovation. For the show, they've partnered with national public Media to bring you a series of in depth conversations with tech industry luminaries. TechUnherd explores each leader's path and analyzes the most pressing trends in their space, all while sharing a few entertaining anecdotes of success and failure along the way. In the first episode, you can hear Rene talk with his old boss Jensen Huang, CEO of Nvidia. They dive into Jensen's journey, the future of AI, and how Nvidia's unique culture of relentless innovation continues to push the boundaries of technology. Tech Unheard lets you listen in on unscripted, one on one conversations between some of tech's biggest leaders. These conversations have never been more important than they are today. Tune in to Tech Unheard from ARM and NPM wherever you get your podcasts. Support for Pivot comes from Zocdoc. When was the last time you needed to go to a doctor but you pushed it off? Let's spin the wheel of excuses to see where you land. I'm too busy. It'll heal on its own. I don't need help. I don't know which doctor to go to. Look, booking a doctor's appointment can feel daunting, but thanks to ZocDoc, there's no reason to delay. They make it so easy to find and book a doctor who's right for you. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and instantly book an appointment. Appointments made through the app can happen fast, typically within just 72 hours of booking. You can even book same day appointments to take some of that stress out. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings and choose a time slot that works for you. Plus you can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, might be a good fit for any medical need you may have, and are highly rated by verified patients. You can stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com pivot to find and instantly book a top rated Doctor today. That's z o c-doc.com pivot zocdoc.com pivot.

[Jen Psaki]

Today explained here with Eric Levitz, senior correspondent at Vox.com to talk about the 2024 election. That can't be right.

[Scott Galloway]

Eric.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought we were done with that.

[Jen Psaki]

I feel like I'm Pacino in three. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. Why are we talking about the 2024 election again? The reason why we're still looking back is that it takes a while after.

[Scott Galloway]

An election to get all of the.

[Jen Psaki]

Most high quality data on what exactly happened.

[Scott Galloway]

So the full picture is starting to.

[Jen Psaki]

Just come into view now.

[Scott Galloway]

And you wrote a piece about the.

[Jen Psaki]

Full picture for Vox recently and it did bonkers business on the Internet.

[Kara Swisher]

What did it say?

[Jen Psaki]

What struck a chord?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

So this was my interview with David Shore of Blue Rose Research. He's one of the biggest sort of Democratic data gurus in the party. And basically the big picture headline takeaways.

[Scott Galloway]

Are on today explained. You'll have to go listen to them there. Find the show wherever you listen to shows, bro. Jen, we're back. Elon says the destiny of humanity rests on the Wisconsin Supreme Court election which is happening Tuesday. Elon appeared at a town hall in Green Bay, Wisconsin on Sunday where he gave out million dollar checks to two Wisconsin voters. He also wore a cheese hat at one point. And he didn't look bad in the cheese head. I'll be honest with you.

[Jen Psaki]

Most people don't look good in cheesehead.

[Scott Galloway]

So I guess that's true.

[Jen Psaki]

But I think it's okay.

[Scott Galloway]

I think it worked for him and blamed George Soros when he was heckled, which is kind of ironic since he was paying people to be there. The Wisconsin Attorney general did try to stop the giveaway, but his suit was rejected by the Supreme Court just before Elon's event began. Elon and his affiliated groups have now spent over $20 million to help the conservative candidate in this judicial race. We're recording a day before the election. I'd love you to sort of assess his political. If you're in a political suit, like, how do you think his communications are? How do you think his impact is? By the way, There are also two special House elections in Florida this week to fill Matt Gaetz and Mike Walls seats. The race for Walls seat is tighter than rapporthas expected, although both Republicans are expected to win there. Talk to me a little bit about what the Elon effect is happening again. There were Tesla takedown protests all over the country, some very creative and it's ongoing and it's really affected Tesla stock as much as President Trump and others are trying hard to stop it.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, I think his power is his money and his money is not paying for. I mean, as much as he was in Wisconsin on Sunday, it's not paying for. Hi, I'm Elon Musk. Go out and vote in the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race. It's paying for all sorts of things, including convincing, you know, getting people to register or to vote to participate in this. Whatever we're calling this, a raffle. I don't even know how to call it. The thing where he gives out money. A raffle. So that's. His money is his power. I mean, and his platforms are his power. His platforms are his power. And so I don't think any Democrat should underestimate that. At the same time, he's more unpopular than Trump. Right. And I don't think Trump. If Trump were. If there were Democrat. If there were. If there were House races now, I don't think any House candidates would put him in an ad, but they would happily take his money and they'd happily get his favor so that they would get favored status on Twitter or X or whatever.

[Scott Galloway]

Or not be attacked by Trump, but not be attacked.

[Jen Psaki]

Right. There's lots of ways to look at that.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, so. And the Wisconsin State Supreme. We'll see what the turnout is. And. But it's still. And then, you know, you talk to Democrats, Ben Wickler, who's the party chair, and others, and they say the turnout's gonna be high. That may be the case, but it's still a state supreme court case race. It's not a governor's race. It's not a presidential race. And the money he's spending there matters. So that's where I think his power is.

[Scott Galloway]

So money. Just money, do you think? I mean, his destiny of humanity thing, he's done this about. I've heard him do it 27 times in the time I've known him. It's like, if Tesla doesn't survive, humanity is doomed. He told me once, and I was like, okay, all right, sure, Chad. And one of the things that he's very dramatic about this, but isn't it positive for him to be. So imagine a Democratic president and say, Reid Hoffman decides he wants to be next to the president at all times. And there was a little bit of pushback in the Obama administration when Eric Schmidt was there. Too much, right?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. He was buddies with Jim Messina. I think they were on, like, speed dial.

[Scott Galloway]

Yes, exactly. So is that. How do you deal with that? Do you think it's a good thing, or has it gone too far here? Everybody says they're gonna have a breakup. They are. You and I disagreed. I don't think they're gonna break up. Why would they? Their money is good. He's a heat shield. Those are my arguments.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I mean, the heat shield, I think, is the most, like, clearest. As long as he continues to be heat shield. I think where we disagreed and, and I feel like you have some sort of insider trading knowledge. Cause you just like know him better than I do. Is like, will he be there in a year himself because of his businesses? Well, well, no. Will Elon Musk still be like in the Trump orbit in a year, you think yes, right? Yes, I think no. Although I only bet $5, so I wasn't like.

[Scott Galloway]

So why no? Tell me. I'll tell you my yes in a second. But why no from your perspective?

[Jen Psaki]

I think if Musk feels like a political problem to Trump, I know he's a heat shield, but you can go from a heat shield to becoming a political problem. Including if Democrats get their act together and figure out a more effective way of talking about Doge cuts and cuts to Social Security and things like that, then he's not gonna be as convenient as a buddy. So then he won't be as around as much in the orbit.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. And how do you eliminate excise someone like that? Just so people are aware. Tesla's shares are down another 4% today. It's down 13% for the month. Although year over year he's up 50%. It took a big leap during. When Trump won.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, do you think Musk would exit himself or you think it's Trump exiting him won?

[Scott Galloway]

He. I think he exits himself, his business interests, but he seems to be doing all kinds of manner of, of hoping AI, using the AI bubble and things like that. So I don't see Trump cutting ties with him. I just don't. I just think it's too problematic. He's brought him in too close. What happens, how do you deal with an angry Elon Musk? Cuz he's unstable. Right. He could do anything with enormous amounts of money. I think you keep him in the.

[Jen Psaki]

Tent no matter you have other rich friends who take his place in the tech world or other world.

[Scott Galloway]

But I'm talking about an unhinged Elon Musk attacking you. Like that could be a very. It would be the story, right? It's a great story.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, maybe, but I don't Trump, I don't know how much he cares. Like he's had plenty of people attacking him all the time. I mean, I. So, you know, how do you ex. How do you rid him? I mean, I don't mean to sound dark here. I'm saying he can go whatever. You just put someone else in charge of Doge. You like say this guy like is out of whack or whatever you say. I don't know, who knows? He offs people all the time in terms of his orbit. So there's all sorts of ways to off Elon Musk in his orbit. I think that the interesting thing to me is if, to your point is if Trump and Musk at some point have a falling out. I think there was a theory which I don't think you ever agreed with, that it might not. It might be a short honeymoon. It's already a long honeymoon. Then there's a, an interesting thing for the future of the Republican party. I mean if you're J.D. vance, you don't wanna be in the crosshairs of Trump, but you also don't wanna be in the crosshairs of Elon Musk.

[Scott Galloway]

That's correct.

[Jen Psaki]

Jaynie vance is like 40 something. Maybe he's around for a long time. Maybe he wears out his welcome with Republicans too. I have no idea. But if you're a lot of these future Republicans, you care about Musk and you care about Steve Bannon who doesn't like Musk. So that's a different, that's an interesting calculation. If Trump and Musk have a falling.

[Scott Galloway]

Out, which way do you go with each of them? Yeah, it's interesting. So, last question. One of the things we talked about was the idea of these protests. Cuz thousands of people over 250ft protested him over the weekend with rallies held at these Tesla showrooms around the world. The protests were part of a so called Tesla takedown movement, an effort to push back against him, encourage people to stop buying them. Protesters branded signs that said things like fight the billionaire boligarchy and send Musk to Mars. Now what do you make of these protests? They seem, I don't think they're sore. Musk is blaming victimization. These are real protests people really don't like. My son writes me about it now he's like, what an asshole. And he liked him. Right. And so how do you look at these from a Democratic perspective? Is it a good thing for the Democratic Party to see these happening or to me, they just don't like him. Like Reid Hoffman says, they just don't like you, bro. That's why they're there.

[Jen Psaki]

They don't like him. I think it's, I think it's furthering the heat shield that you've talked about and I totally agree with because it is taking the energy and anger that you are seeing from a lot of Democrats out there and directing it at Tesla now. I think it's very warranted. Elon Musk has done some very bad things. But I kind of wish These people were protesting about Trump and Social Security or Trump and something else Medicaid cut. Because I don't know ultimately are people gonna go to the polls in November and in November, a year and a half from now about Tesla? I mean, I'd be surprised. Lots of things can happen, but I think that's the only thing that's a little.

[Scott Galloway]

You wish they were. This is what they're mad about and not in a. I wish it was something.

[Jen Psaki]

I wish they directed all of their pain, anger and passion, which is a good thing.

[Scott Galloway]

What can Democrats do to cycle that in?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I mean, this is presumably somewhere organic. I haven't seen, but you tell me that these Tesla protests, are they being organized by any like Democratic grassroots groups?

[Scott Galloway]

Some, some are, some are, some are just like every other protest.

[Jen Psaki]

Everything but. But I think there are things that are happening that are sort of organic but have been, been, you know, indivisible and others have been additive to it. Like these town hall meetings. Right. Showing up at town hall meetings. Town hall meetings being held in Republican districts. More of that. I think though there's not enough Democrats who are doing that. There are plenty who are doing. There are some who are doing it, I should say. But there needs to be more of that and people for people to feel like they have a place to go and to direct their energies. I don't know. I still think there's some work on kind of the coordination and kind of what the messaging is and what people should be doing who are writing letters and things. A lot of it is still about Tesla and maybe it will be for a while about Teslas.

[Scott Galloway]

That's a really good point. Yeah. It shouldn't be about Tesla. Cause then he's not, not the President.

[Jen Psaki]

He's not the President.

[Scott Galloway]

That's why it doesn't get affected of Trump. Although Trump's affiliation with Elon is so strong, it does have residual effects. And one of the things, speaking of money, Elon Musk's X has been acquired by Elon Musk's xai. Elon announced the deal on X saying the two companies futures are intertwined. They've already been intertwined by the way, they're using X data and this technology for grok, which is their product. This officially combines the data models, compute and distribution and talent. It officially does, but it's already been combined. By the way, everybody, the all stock deal valued XAI at $80 billion and X at 33 billion. I don't think that takes into account the debt, but I'm not sure there's a big debt thing on there. The price is down from $44 billion Elon paid in 2022, but it's higher than a recent $12 billion valuation. I think this is all made up because I think the company has never been a particularly good business. And all it does is it hides it now. It hides it completely within this. Within this AI boomlet and even Xai probably shouldn't be worth $80 billion. It doesn't make anything. It doesn't make any money. It makes a lot of noise. And so. And he's not alone in this. All the other AI companies are. Are high. But it's just a. He's just putting money from one pocket into the other. And he may. And it just looks good because what he's doing is attaching. I wouldn't be surprised if he brings Tesla in on this too, and merges it into Tesla and then completes the picture to bring Tesla's shares up, giving it an AI value, essentially.

[Jen Psaki]

That's why he's doing it. You think it gives it, like this fake, phony boost until it's not right.

[Scott Galloway]

Someone's going to get ahead in AI, and so why not just fold them together? And then you don't understand the actual businesses themselves.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about. Reading the stories about this made me think about the early days after the purchase. When one. I think it. Did it happen in the spring of like, two years ago? When did this happen? Am I remembering this correctly? This is relevant only because at the correspondence dinner, which I still attend many years later.

[Scott Galloway]

We're gonna talk about that next.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes. But I sat next to Linda Yaccarino, who was still at NBC at the time, and I was like, she's nice. She's fun and interesting. I remember now you're gonna be like, you're naive, very naive. And I was like, oh, she's very engaging. And then like a week later, she went to Twitter, or X or whatever they were still called at that time, and I was like, wow, I kind of misread of that whole situation. That was a real reflection moment. But you remember the early days when it was like, thank you for being a source of where I could share my thoughts. And I know you're gonna disappear. And there was this kind of fear of.

[Scott Galloway]

Of.

[Jen Psaki]

Your followers going away. I mean, I've decreased followers, of course, as anybody who is not a right winger has done for the most part over the last couple years, but at the time, I had, like 1.4 million followers and I'm like, well, man, I wanna see what this happens. But this is like I've built up a following now and now it's just like. No, no, I'm saying this is how I felt a couple years ago. Now it's just like a dumpster fire of hella shit.

[Scott Galloway]

Are you on there still, Jen? He's still on. You need to get it.

[Jen Psaki]

I haven't deleted my account, but I really.

[Scott Galloway]

Neither have I because I don't want Linda Yakarina to do something funny with it. That's really pretty much.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, that's fair. So I don't engage on it, but I still have an account.

[Scott Galloway]

You still have an account. That's probably the best way to.

[Jen Psaki]

And lots of insane fake accounts I'll have to do something about at some point. But I, you know, whatever. I worry, don't. I don't really care.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, she got mad at me because I called her that nice ad lady from Queensland, but because I don't think she has any technological experience and is just there for window dressing for Eli. Now she presumably will disappear into whatever this is. I'd be shocked. Maybe he'll make her CEO, but she'll be CEO. A Sino CEO of the.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, that's what she wanted right at the time, wasn't that?

[Scott Galloway]

No, I think she really thought she was in there with him. Shoulder to shoulder. I think that it's like not true, but whatever, who knows? I don't really care what happens to her career. Honestly, I could care less. But one of the things hard same.

[Jen Psaki]

I met her once.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, exactly. Well, you missed it. You missed it. She's quite conservative. Just. You missed that part.

[Jen Psaki]

Clearly.

[Scott Galloway]

She's Quite clearly. She always was. If you spend enough time with her, you're like, what? And you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna go now. I remember that when she was at NBC, she said something sort of right wingy. I'm like, you know what? My mother annoys me enough. I don't need you on top of it. Like, that's how I felt.

[Jen Psaki]

I need to limit the number of right wing people that I engage with on a regular basis.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I was like, I don't even know you. And my mother I have to still talk to. So one of the things about this purchase is it's just a way to create, to get the benefit of an AI valuation and pretend that Twitter is an actual business when it is at best a middling advertising business that she's never going to transform because it missed the boat many Many, many moons ago to Facebook and Meta. So whatever. Good luck with this, Elon. We'll see. Here's what it does now. I'll make one more point. It doesn't improve the product. Like nothing in this is about the products of either of these things and what they're going to sell to consumers, how they're going to make money. It all about the financial transaction. And to me that's a big red flag.

[Jen Psaki]

But did he ever care about the product? No, he does.

[Scott Galloway]

That's not true. No. I think Tesla, the original Tesla.

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no, no, no. About X.

[Scott Galloway]

Now he doesn't Twitter.

[Jen Psaki]

Twitter, Twitter X. You think he cares about the product?

[Scott Galloway]

I think he did initially and then doesn't care. Now he's using it as a cudgel is what he's doing it. All right, Jen, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump is on a pard.

[Jen Psaki]

If you've been online this week, you've probably seen an unending flood of those beautiful animated studio Ghibli style images of everything from happy families being together to beloved cartoon characters committing unspeakable acts of violence against each other. That, my friends, is the AI world we live in. And it's not going to get less complicated. That is what we are talking about this week on the Vergecast, along with the future of robot vacuums, what's happening with car tariffs and everything else going on in the AI world. All that on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Scott Galloway]

Jen, we're back. President Trump commuted the criminal fraud sentence of Ozzy Media founder Carlos Watson just hours before Watson was due in prison. The company falsely claimed to have deals with Google and Oprah Winfrey and have owned fines over $90 million. Watson is convicted of conspiracy to commit securities and wire fraud, which he did, and identity theft, which he did and was sentenced to 10 years. Trump also pardoned Trevor Milton, the founder of electric truck maker Nikola, who was convicted of misleading investors. Same pattern. Milton was represented by Brad Bondi, brother of AG Pam Bondi, in a securities fraud trial. Do you think Trump will be the latest investor in the Fyre Festival too? The way this is going, do presidents us do this in the middle of a term?

[Jen Psaki]

No, no. I mean, wait, also at the end.

[Scott Galloway]

Right, right.

[Jen Psaki]

And also, I mean, these two thematic fraudsters, it's, it feels also to me it's like the Eric Adams thing in the sense that.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah, him too.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a little mobby. Right? Because it's like Carlos Watson, who I've Met a couple times. I don't know well. Or anything.

[Scott Galloway]

But, like, did you like him, too? I'm kidding. Now, he was around Democratic circles, but.

[Jen Psaki]

Then he was around Democratic circles, is my point.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

So you're like. And Eric Adams was a. I don't know. I think he still considers himself a. Who knows? But, like these. They now feel kind of an obligation to Trump, right? I mean, some version of it. Of course they do. So that's what it reminds me of, a Mobby thing. The other thing about this, Milton, Pardon, Trump said, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people talk about themselves in the third person, which Trump is not the only one who does this, but he does it a lot. Where he said the thing he did wrong was he supported a gentleman named Trump. Right. That was Trump talking about Pardon. And it's like, I don't know the guy well, but he supported me. It's like he gets pulled into these fraudsters who he wants to validate because I think it validates him. That's what it feels like it's about. But, yeah, no, you don't. Don't really do it in the middle.

[Scott Galloway]

If you were working for Biden right now, he suddenly started doing this, what would you run into the Oval Office and say, what in the actual fuck or what? What was the crazy. Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, you know, it's like. Yes. Because in a normal case, though, here's the thing, Trump knows there's so much shit flying out there that, like, we're talking about this. You're talking about this. Is everybody going to talk about this? No, because there's so many other things going on, so it can be kind of buried in the burying of all. You know, which is why he does things like say he's going to run for a third term.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

It's like he wants to.

[Scott Galloway]

We're not even talking about it.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm saying he's doing it so. Because he wants to change the subject. He wants to talk about it. So. Yes.

[Scott Galloway]

What's he changing the subject from?

[Jen Psaki]

I think he. Well, a couple things signal K, which I don't. I'm not saying this is gonna be a political problem for him forever, but, hey, there have been a few polls and people hate it, including Republicans. And he knows it makes him look kind of weak in the national security world. Elections, special elections tomorrow. Who knows what will happen? Maybe they'll win all three. But, like, it's. Even if Josh Weil loses by five points, it's not great for Trump. Right. That's a little bit of sign of political weakness. It was Michael Waltz's seat, maybe some of the tax, you know, who knows? I think there's just like he'd like to talk about. There's still again, I know I keep talking about this, but like a bunch of his advisors, including his commerce secretary, keeps talking about Social Security in ways that are, like, hugely problematic for, like, anyone who reads a poll ever. So, yeah, it's changing the subject from a lot of other things.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, that's true. That is true. That's exactly what he's doing. He's doing a good job at it, though. So. Last thing, the White House Correspondents association has canceled comedian Amber Ruffin's scheduled appearance at his annual dinner. WHCA President Eugene Daniels said in a statement that the organization decided not to have the comedian to ensure the focus is not on the politics of division. The cancellation came a day after the White House chief of staff, Taylor Butowicz slammed Ruffin on X. He shared a clip from a recent apparent on the Daily Beast podcast where she referred to Trump administration as kind of a bunch of murderers. She's a comic girlfriend also revealed the guidance she got from the Correspondents association in that podcast interview. Let's listen.

[Jen Psaki]

They were like, you need to be, you know, equal and make sure that the, that you give it to both sides and blah, blah, blah. I was like, there's no way I'm going to be fricking doing that, dude, under no circumstances.

[Scott Galloway]

So as someone who attended the dinner, you've been at some of the more controversial ones, both as a member of the White House presidency team and a member of the media. It's not clear if Trump is planning on attending the dinner he has in the past, and Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt has already said she's not going. The White House correspondents seem to be giving. They're also deciding where everybody sits. Right. They were going to have the president now decide where they sit and they could push the main media out of the front seats. They've already also knocked AP out. There's all kinds of things when you look at the you didn't do much with the White House correspondents. They just ran their own show, right? Correct.

[Jen Psaki]

Also, like, you don't have to agree to what they say, you know, and they don't respond to what you want either. I mean, the whole point is that I think this is such a sign of kind of weak obedience from and I will say, I mean, I know Eugene pretty well. He seems to me a little bit I haven't talked to him about this. This in the statement he said unanimous decision. I would not be surprised if he was quite pressured to do this by the White House Correspondent association is made up of representatives from kind of every network, every wire service, by outlets who feel under greater pressure than I think he would personally. But it's not his personal choice. I think it is a scholarship dinner. Yes, that is true. But what you're doing here, there's a comedian at almost all of these dinners, right? The comedian, typically, even when there's a president with less fodder than Trump, spends most of their time making fun of the sitting president. Cuz that's the whole point. There's plenty of easy fodder about Democrats right now. I mean, Chuck Schumer, hello. There's a few jokes about you and a couple of other people, right. But what this is doing is this is agreeing to the terms he wants at a dinner that is supposed to be about preserving the value of the freedom and independence of the press. It is. You are. And speech. And you are obeying in advance about something so stupid, you know.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, that's the thing is so stupid. I've never been happy about that dinner, I have to tell you. I've always felt it was too jocular. I thought it was too like hanging out with your sources. And I wasn't a political reporter, but I was like, oof, this is a little awkward. When you were dealing though, with the White House correspondents, they decided where to sit. Right where everybody sits in the briefing room. In the briefing room. And now the Trump administration is taking control of that. They took control of who could be there. And they knocked AP out for not saying Gulf of America and saying Gulf of Mexico. Again. It's a matter of free speech, as Julia Pace has said. Who runs ap? Did you ever imagine pushing these, that you could push these people around like this? Cuz it certainly looks like it was possible for you to do that. What was your relationship?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, you, you could and we, you would kind of, you know, they would do sternly worded letters and you would ignore them. You know, I mean, it's not. I think it's sort of a bit of an outdated system in some ways. In many ways the idea of it is a good idea. Right. It just needs to be modernized, which is like a bunch of reporters who cover the White House speaking as a group about issues and not as individual organizations. And that's a good. But you know, it's what they choose to fight about. And when I Was there. Sometimes they would write these sternly worded letters about, like, we need a formal press conference in the East Wing. And you're like, really? That's what you're gonna write your sternly worded letter about?

[Scott Galloway]

Like, and you ignored it.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, you're gonna do one or you're not. I don't. You know, it's like I'm seeing your.

[Scott Galloway]

Face going, oh, God, this letter is stupid.

[Jen Psaki]

But the other thing is that you also work with the White House Correspondents association on a variety of things that can be useful. Like. Like, the President's going to a war zone. You can't announce that in advance. We need a small pool of reporters on the plane to travel with the President. And you work with them on that. You work with them on planning foreign trips to making sure and fighting for access and things like that. So there are a lot of constructive reasons for having an organization that you can kind of work with as a representation. But I think some of this stuff is just. It's like a misguided.

[Scott Galloway]

So why shouldn't they just. So one of the ideas is they band together and they just leave the room, like. And then it's left to, like, the. The, I don't know, Newsmax people, like, whatever. Is that a bad thing? Like, just say, you know what? Cause by staying there, you give it credibility, this nonsense, or do you have to just live by the rules they've decided now? Live in their oxygen universe. Is there any possibility they won't do this because corporate media won't do it? But is there any choice here but to dance to his tune?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I think it would be a mistake for them to leave the room, because I think they leave the room. Hard to explain to the public that all these organizations who are giving them any information from inside the White House are all biased toward Trump. Right. So they are. This is not their responsibility. Oh, maybe it is part of their responsibility, but they're playing a public service role by still being there, I think, and by being present in the room.

[Scott Galloway]

Even if they're not asked questions, even if they can't, they don't have any access.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, they ask questions in the brief. Right. You know, the briefing and the outdated nature of that is another topic. You know, the nature of the pool is like, that's this. There's no precedent for this. Right. So there's no. Just like many things Trump does. It's almost like the playbook. The system is not prepared to respond to it. So this is a moment for, I think Them and as an association or as media outlets to decide how are we gonna respond. Maybe Trump's not the last version of this.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I think you should plan for him not being the last version of this. And what does that look like?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you just said very quickly like that's another topic. You shouldn't have briefings. I think they're stupid.

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no, no, no. You should have briefings. But absolutely for a number of reasons. I mean, one of them is it's, I mean, freedom of press. Having the freedom of press there, that sends a message to the world. You can't go into other countries and be like, freedom of press, talk to real reporters and then not do it yourself. It' the system internally to get answers. It's very efficient, all of those things. What I mean is there are ways that in the briefing room, it's a little different now, but in the briefing room still it's dominated by a handful of outlets and a handful of outlets are not what the majority of the public consumes. And so there are some outdated aspects of it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, yeah. I was sort of like when she was like, let's let in others. I'm like, yeah, let's let it. I want to go, oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

So those things, the thing, the problem is those things are good things. Like Sean Spicer did a lot of crazy things. I can only think of Melissa McCarthy. But he did have a screen where he had regional reporters at times. I think that's a good thing. There are things that need to be modernized about that. But I, but what they've done now is they've essentially let in half state run media to kind of be the dominant sources of information in the pool. And that's opposed problem.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, why wouldn't they do that? I mean, to me being angry about it is sort of like, oh, can you. Someone was like, can you believe they did it? I'm like, yeah, I can believe it. Once again, I can believe that they would put state run media in there. Why wouldn't they? That's good for them. Like they'll do whatever is good for them. I don't know if we have any choice in there. I honestly believe or not it is.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes. And historically Democratic and Republican presidents have not done that. There's all sorts of things to criticize about every administration. In terms of the ones including the ones I worked with and about how they dealt with the press. I'm not suggesting that, but there were briefings done. There was most of the time accurate information. There wasn't Intentional misleading. Most of the time. There are exceptions. Right. This is a whole different thing. And the system and the press corps is not prepared for it.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, Trump is innovative, if anything, in some way. Innovative and a very terrible way.

[Jen Psaki]

I guess you could call it that.

[Scott Galloway]

Call it that, yeah. Anyway, let me ask you one more question, because you were. How would you have changed it if you were still there, if you were not working for Trump but a Democratic, what would you have taken from what they've done here and said, okay, good idea. This, not so much. How would you modernize it? Give me two things.

[Jen Psaki]

Sure. I would have done. Actually, truthfully, if Hillary Clinton had won, I was the communications director for Obama, we would have recommended they change the briefing. And when I came in, and I'll come back to that in a second, when I came in and I was by Biden's press secretary four years later, because we were following four years of them yelling at reporters and demonizing the media and not doing regular briefings, we felt like we had to return to some sort of normalcy to send the message.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

But if it had been Hillary Clinton, I would have said do two or three briefings a week, include some sort of rotation of regional reporters or other outlets, either in the room or on a screen. You can easily answer questions to people who are on a screen. The other days, maybe do them off camera because people can still get information. But there's something very performative. I realize I'm currently, I'm a host of a TV show. There's something very performative about the Breakfast Room and television.

[Scott Galloway]

You and Ducey. Yeah, we got cheated.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, but you know, yes, you have to, you can do that. Give people the clips they want and whatever. But, but like two days, do a gag. What's called, we call it a gaggle. You do em on planes at the State Department. Well, it's hard cause there's too many people usually. But like yes, back in the day you used to do gaggles in your office. People still ask tough questions. You still have to answer them. It's not as performative and it's not as constructive to ask the question 17 times because somebody's already asked the question. Those are a couple of the things I would do.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I agree with you with the screens. You could have people and from across the country.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, one more quick break and we'll be back for wins and fails.

[Jen Psaki]

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[Scott Galloway]

Okay, Jen, let's hear some wins and fails. I'll go first. My fail of the week are these continuing attacks on these students at colleges. They should be able to say what they want anytime they want and even criticize the United States and things. I don't even agree with some of them. And I really find it a fail that people are not more upset about this, that students, just because of things they say. Same thing with Elon Musk's attacks on people who don't like Teslas. If you don't like a Tesla, you should be able to say you don't like a Tesla. If you don't like Elon Musk, you should be able to say you don't like Elon Musk. And he shouldn't have to spin a conspiracy theory about it because he's sad. And one of the things that I've always noticed about this group of people, as I've said on your show and many other shows, every accusation is a confession with these people. Everything they accuse people of, they're doing themselves. And so I find it really. These are students that are here. We're supposed to be an open society. If they want to dislike us, come here and dislike us, that's fine, too. That's fine, too. In fact, it makes us stronger, makes us love our country more. I think a win. I'm gonna give it to Lisa Murkowski, actually, both Republican Senators Dan Sullivan and the other. And they're really doing different tactics to push back on Trump. I would say I prefer Lisa Murkowski's efforts more. She's in a safer position now that she's shown she's got the grit to stick in there and she has the political capital to do that. But I do think there should be more. You see, Senator Lankford doing the same thing and calling for a look into signal gates. It would be really nice to see more of of these Republican senators find their set. And of course, it's a woman who's doing it first. And I do think that's something to look up to and we should praise those efforts when they're done by the Republican Party because I do think it's. As much as we talk about the lack of spine for the Republicans, I think it's super, super hard to be in that situation if you want to have a role in government. And I'm going to add in a last one from international. Marie Le Pen, barred from the presidential run after embezzlement is really something. It shows there are now, there are other leaders now who have taken her place. So it's not gonna really slow them down. But I do think that just shows that other countries know how to handle problems of their elected officials and are much more fair about it. Of course there's gonna be a whole conspiracy theory around her. But nonetheless, I thought that was something surprising for me. I didn't even know that was coming. So your turn.

[Jen Psaki]

I didn't either. On Marine Le Pen. Okay, wins. I'm gonna say as much as I've said repeatedly that there are not enough Democrats out there and more need to be out there. I am delighted by the re emergence of Tim Walls who I think was locked in a closet somewhere during the 2024 or most of the election. After he became the running mate, he kind of. I love his imperfect, rough around the edges answers to things. He had this amazing moment where he a couple days ago where he talked about the benefits of the Department of Education and what it actually does for people. He was asked a question about a Title 1 by a student at a Title 1 school. I think this is one of those bureaucratic things most people don't know how to talk about and I think a lot of parents would actually care if they knew. I loved that. I love the reemergence of him. I'm gonna give a tie the other person that I have, I knew who he was, but I didn't really pay attention to what he had to say. But I feel like has become this emerging great speaker and voice in the Democratic Party is Greg Kazar who is.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I don't know this explain.

[Jen Psaki]

He is the chairman of the Progressive Caucus, but he is a person who speaks in plain English about how things impact people. And I've had him on the show a couple times. He's been at a Couple of these rallies. It's always exciting when you see people you didn't really know before and you're like, that person. Makes sense. So that's exciting to me. I'm gonna say my loss. I'm just gonna stay in the political space in the blueprint theme. Since nobody knows what the blueprint is. I'm gonna tell you. I have been consistently disappointed with Chuck Schumer, which I have openly talked about.

[Scott Galloway]

Me too.

[Jen Psaki]

I think we can move on from the debacle of the funding debate or funding agreement for a moment. But here's what is disappointing. It doesn't seem clear that any lessons have been learned. Learned because the Democrats have been on recess. There is a debate coming up about extending high end tax cuts, which will happen in all likelihood. But this is a winning issue. It could be something you could equip people to go out to districts and hold town halls and meetings and be aligned. I'm obsessed with Social Security and how this is something that some Democrats have effectively talked about. But the fact is you have the commerce secretary saying his mother. His mother in law. Was it his mother in law.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, whatever. He's such a cool.

[Jen Psaki]

Wouldn't care. No. He said, did you see this? Wouldn't care. Wouldn't care if she. If her Social Security check got a.

[Scott Galloway]

Week late because your son's a billionaire. You imagine, Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Also, like that should be in ads everywhere. Like I know about it, but why isn't it everywhere? So I'm not putting all the blame on him, but he's a Democratic leader. We can move on from the funding debate. Let's learn some lessons.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I would agree. I would get. I would dump him. I think you should. Just so you know, for people who don't know, Representative Kazar is from Austin, Boston, obviously. He also includes Elon Musk's largest factory. And he is terrific. He's really terrific. And he's been attacking Musk, among others.

[Jen Psaki]

And before Musk became Musk, he had a little tangle with him.

[Scott Galloway]

He did. And he's also saying, let's stop with purity tests and stop being so. He's got the right message and it's really interesting. And it's an interesting place he's from because he's from Texas. Although Austin is not really Texas, is it? In any case, those are good. See, that wasn't hard. So you did it.

[Jen Psaki]

No.

[Scott Galloway]

And you have succeeded. You have still not told a dirty joke. But let me have a comic. Come on and talk a little bit. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, I talked to comedian Michelle Bateau on with Kara Swisher this week. Let's listen to a clip.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm not working from a place of fear.

[Scott Galloway]

That.

[Jen Psaki]

No, if. No, no. Edit yourself. No, no. So many people edit themselves and they do what they think they should be doing, and then they beat themselves up when it doesn't go through, when it doesn't get a second season or get greenlit. And it's just like, no, I need to sleep at night. And if I'm not doing what I know I need to do what my intuition tells me I need to do, then I'm not gonna sleep. So, no, working from a place of fear is. If you're an artist, like, get over that shit real quick.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, she was great. I think comics are doing some of the most interesting work right now, don't you? Like, I have a comic on every eight weeks, at least. Cause I think there are some of the smartest people talking about politics right now. And have fearlessness.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, we do, too. We like to have comics on as well. Because I think they can talk about things happening in a way that breaks through and is real. As she said, it's a little bit more fearless. Cause you wanna be funny, right? Right.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm gonna try to get Amber Ruffin to come on and do her set.

[Jen Psaki]

Good.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, yeah. So no jokes from you, then. No jokes from you. All right, I'll do one. Why do melons have weddings?

[Jen Psaki]

Why?

[Scott Galloway]

They can't elope. Okay. All right, one more. Here's a dirtier one.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay. Dirty. That wasn't even a dirty joke, Ker. If I knew it was like a, you know.

[Scott Galloway]

All right, let me do a penis one then. Why did you. Why did the sperm cross the road?

[Jen Psaki]

Why?

[Scott Galloway]

Because I put on the wrong sock this morning. Okay. Oh, but I don't even know what that means but myself.

[Jen Psaki]

We're here for it. Someone's going to write through and give their analysis. I love it.

[Scott Galloway]

Right? Exactly.

[Jen Psaki]

I need an older son to give me dirty jokes.

[Scott Galloway]

I know. Clearly that's true. Okay. That's the show. Thank you so much, Jen. Jen is the host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki. Sundays at 12pm ET and Mondays at 8pm ET. Come this spring, she'll be making the move to MSNBC's Primetime as the host of the 9pm ET Hour Tuesdays through Fridays. So Jen Psaki everywhere. She's gonna be surrounding you.

[Jen Psaki]

You're everywhere, Kara.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I'm not on five nights a week on prime time. Anyway, thanks. I knew you'd be good at this and you are indeed. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. I will read us out. But thank you, Jen, so much.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. Great to be with you.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Julian Villard edited the video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another guest host. I'm not saying who it is. And another breakdown of all things tech and business, but Jen, again, thank you so much.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you. Next guest host better bring dirty jokes. You get them a heads up.