Elon's Big Loss, Trump's Stock Trades, and OpenAI vs. Apple

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary

Episode: Elon’s Big Loss, Trump’s Stock Trades, and OpenAI vs. Apple
Date: May 19, 2026
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway

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Overview

This episode tackles several headline tech and political stories: Elon Musk’s courtroom defeat by OpenAI, the complexities of Trump’s aggressive stock trading amid his presidency, OpenAI’s budding legal clash with Apple, the backlash against AI data centers, and the trend of outsider candidates rising in major U.S. cities. Swisher and Galloway blend deep industry insight with their signature banter while skewering the excesses and antics of Silicon Valley’s elite.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Elon Musk’s Lawsuit Loss Against OpenAI ([06:17 – 14:45])

• Background: Elon Musk sued Sam Altman & OpenAI, claiming the company violated its original nonprofit charter.

• Jury Verdict: After less than two hours of deliberation, the jury unanimously sided against Musk; the judge dismissed all claims.
  Kara Swisher:

  “The judge backed the verdict ... I think they’re basically saying, Elon, you giant adult toddler, too bad.” ([07:13])

• Scott’s Take:

  “As predicted, I thought this was an easy one—a messiah complex and seller’s regret cosplaying a legal argument.” ([07:41]) “The only thing that came out of this case was Musk was f***ing a board member…” ([07:47])

• Swisher’s Analysis:

  “All of them came off badly … Sam Altman doesn’t look good, Siobhan Zillis, Greg Brockman. The only person who came off like an adult is Satya Nadella … the rest look like babies and so unhappy and so rich.” ([09:38])

• Does It Affect the AI Race?
  Both hosts agree that the verdict won’t derail upcoming IPO plans for OpenAI (valued >$850 billion) or SpaceX.
  Scott:

  “Musk lost, Altman won. But bigger picture, neither of their IPOs is threatened by this.” ([13:29], [14:02])

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2. OpenAI vs. Apple: AI Integration Dispute ([16:39 – 25:17])

• News: OpenAI is contemplating legal action against Apple, arguing ChatGPT hasn’t received prime placement in Apple’s ecosystem.

• Distribution Is King:
  Scott:

  “Even something as powerful as OpenAI, if you put them at the bottom, they’re not going to get as much … distribution just has so much power.” ([17:47])

• Apple’s Tactics: Apple appears ready to let users choose between different AI models but might default to the highest bidder—as with Google Search.

• Kara’s View:

  “I don’t love this pay-to-play kind of stuff … people should be able to choose their AI model.” ([19:00])

• Scott’s Analysis:

  “Apple will be the toll booth and let whoever the highest bidder is be the default AI.” ([24:14])

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3. Public Backlash Against AI Data Centers ([25:47 – 33:41])

• Polls Show Strong Opposition: According to Gallup, 70%+ of Americans (across parties) oppose building AI data centers nearby—mainly due to distrust and income inequality.
• Scott’s Big Point:

  “Whether you’re booing Eric Schmidt or rallying against a data center ... this is a vessel for people’s rage around income inequality.” ([27:06])

• Impact: Swisher and Galloway agree resistance is as much about anger at tech elites as environmental or job concerns.

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4. Trump’s Stock Trades & Normalization of Grift ([33:52 – 40:30])

• News: Financial disclosures reveal Trump/advisors made over 3,700 trades in Q1 2026, actively investing in companies affected by White House policy.

• Swisher:

  “Is there anywhere he doesn’t cheat and advantage himself in a way that’s, like, really obvious grift?” ([34:12])

• Scott’s Key Moment:

  “Insider trading ... has essentially defined Trump’s second term.” ([36:38]) “Indignation isn’t enough. Dems need to say exactly how they'd prosecute, and go after their own too if necessary.” ([39:05])

• Kara:

  “There’s an ability to track this stuff, folks ... they’re not gonna get Trump, but the sons and hangers-on? This grift has to be tackled directly.” ([40:07])

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5. SpaceX’s Monarchy IPO Structure ([45:48 – 53:55])

• Context: SpaceX plans a $2 trillion IPO, with Musk retaining super-voting shares, making him essentially irremovable.

• Swisher:

  “This is not uncommon ... but come on, of course he’s going to do this. He truly does believe in this multi-planetary extending consciousness … he wants to be the God of Mars.” ([46:55])

• Scott:

  “Dual-class shares started with media companies, then leaked into tech … now almost everyone’s doing it.” ([48:39])
  He analyzes how such structures limit shareholder power but often attract investors for “visionary” founders.

• Financial context:

  “SpaceX will IPO at 109x trailing revenue, growing revenues at 20% a year … It’s targeting $2 trillion. Is it an amazing company or massively overvalued? The answer is yes.” ([53:55])

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6. Political Fallout: Bill Cassidy & Gerrymandering ([53:55 – 59:41])

• Cassidy Loses Primary: Trump’s influence remains strong; losing GOP primary is “legend” for Cassidy’s “disloyalty.”

• Swisher:

  “He’s found his balls now … But that’s not when we need your testicles. That’s not when we need you to be a leader.” ([57:50])

• Scott:

  “You do need medical professionals in Congress … But now we’ll get someone worse.” ([57:06])

• Dem Redistricting Loss in VA: Scott notes, despite optimism, this is “bad for Democrats,” showing limits to hope over gerrymandering.

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7. LA Mayoral Race Goes Reality TV ([62:10 – 73:59])

• Spencer Pratt, Reality Star, as Contender: Boosted by Joe Rogan & Musk, running on wildfires, homelessness anger, but has peddled conspiracy theories.

• Scott:

  “He embraced Alex Jones, said 9/11 was an inside job and doubted Sandy Hook—go f*** yourself.” ([64:34])

• Swisher:

  “This guy makes Trump look like a genius ... he’s con after con after another ... LA should be governed by serious people.” ([67:58], [73:00])

• The hosts lament influencer politics and astroturfing in CA; warn of the destructive force of “anger candidates.”

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8. Wins and Fails ([77:44 – 87:37])

• Kara’s Win/Fail: The Stephen Colbert farewell tour—funny, but overdone.
  Notable line:

  “Leave already … lots of people get f***ed, do something about it.” ([78:10])

• Scott’s Fail:
  Kristof’s NYT piece on Palestinian prisoners:

  “It’s an extraordinary claim, that dogs were trained to rape prisoners … If you're going to publish something that incendiary, you need airtight sourcing.” ([79:34])

• Metaconversation: Hosts debate journalistic standards for reporting in war/conflict; agree tighter standards and more corroboration should be required for such explosive claims.

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9. Scott’s Prediction: China Will Soft-Blockade Taiwan ([87:42 – 92:16])

• Prediction:

  “You’re going to see an invasion of the Kinmen or Matsu Islands in the next 24 months ... a soft economic blockade is coming.”
  “I believe Trump has sold out Taiwan to Xi—the future of chips is too critical to cede to China.” ([88:48–91:13])

• Kara:

  “Selling chips to China is such a mistake … That’s exactly how they’re gonna do it, and Trump has sold out a critical part of our security.” ([91:48])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Elon, you giant adult toddler, too bad.” — Kara Swisher ([07:13])
• “All of them came off badly … why are they so unhappy and so rich?” — Kara Swisher ([09:38])
• “Insider trading ... has essentially defined Trump’s second term.” — Scott Galloway ([36:38])
• “This guy makes Trump look like a genius ... one con after another.” — Kara Swisher ([67:58])
• “He embraced Alex Jones … go f*** yourself.” — Scott Galloway ([64:34])
• “The only person who came off like an adult is Satya Nadella ... The rest look like babies.” — Kara Swisher ([09:38])
• “Apple will be the toll booth and let whoever is the highest bidder be the default AI.” — Scott Galloway ([24:14])

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Flow & Tone

• Swisher and Galloway intersperse pointed insights with comedic timing, using sarcasm and exasperation to highlight both the ridiculousness and the gravity in Silicon Valley, politics, and media.
• The tone is candid, irreverent, blunt, and deeply skeptical of tech and political elites.

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Additional Segments

• Data Centers as Protest Fodder: Data centers have become a lightning rod for anti-tech sentiment—mirroring general income inequality anger. ([27:06])
• Astroturfing in California Elections: Influence-buying and non-disclosure in campaigns (notably Tom Steyer) is now the norm, raising questions about authentic political engagement. ([71:29])
• Journalism in War: The tension between reporting abuse and maintaining standards—in light of the Kristof NYT controversy—gets a rigorous and respectful debate. ([79:34 – 87:37])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Elon Musk’s Lawsuit Loss: [06:17 – 14:45]
• OpenAI vs. Apple: [16:39 – 25:17]
• AI Data Center Backlash: [25:47 – 33:41]
• Trump Stock Grift: [33:52 – 40:30]
• SpaceX Monarchy IPO: [45:48 – 53:55]
• Cassidy & Gerrymandering: [53:55 – 59:41]
• LA Mayoral Reality TV: [62:10 – 73:59]
• Wins & Fails: [77:44 – 87:37]
• Scott’s China-Taiwan Prediction: [87:42 – 92:16]

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Conclusion

This Pivot episode eviscerates the egos, hypocrisies, and blunders of tech tycoons, politicians, and would-be leaders. Swisher and Galloway argue that public trust is being eroded as the lines blur between business, policy, and grift—and warn that public anger will keep fueling unpredictable, even dangerous, political outcomes.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

why send your ducks in? Hope they land. Share a PDF space for Acrobat. They'll understand. A custom intro that's so clear. An audio summary that says what they need to hear. An AI assistant that makes it all click so they'll understand it real good, real quick. Ain't just some files on the screen. It's exactly what your clients need to see.

[Scott Galloway]

You can do that, do that, do

[Kara Swisher]

that, do that with acrobat. [e-mail] dothatwithacrobat and the problem is, folks,

[Scott Galloway]

that's not when we need your testicles.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

So you finally put a picture of me on your wall of your New York studio?

[Scott Galloway]

You know, I had it next to my bed and I decided to put it in my office.

[Kara Swisher]

A big one like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Uh huh.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you for putting me up there. I appreciate it. It shows a commitment to our relationship that I worry about sometimes.

[Scott Galloway]

I'll be honest with you, I like keeping the other person a little bit on their heels.

[Kara Swisher]

I feel that. Yeah. Is that how you conduct relationships?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. And then they break up with me.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Well, that's probably how it's gonna go here.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. There you go.

[Kara Swisher]

That's how it's gonna go.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, I saw a movie last night. I went and saw Ladies first with Rosamund pike and Sacha Baron Cohen.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, was it good?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I was shocked how much I enjoyed it. It's a little cliche. It's a little. It's based on a French film. It Felt like it should have been played in the 90s, but it's sort of an elegy to London. And I think Sacha Baron Cohen is actually a very strong actor and he's sort of a leading man. He's actually quite handsome. And I think Rosamund pike is one of the great talents.

[Kara Swisher]

She is.

[Scott Galloway]

I've had a lot of Rosamund Pike. I went and saw her play on Friday. It's basically a one woman show. And it's incredible. It's about a judge whose son is accused of rape and the conflict she goes through. I think she's an incredible talent.

[Kara Swisher]

She is. I like her. And Rebecca Ferguson. Rebecca Ferguson is my favorite, that genre of actor. You know what I saw this weekend, speaking of handsome people? Sheep Detective.

[Scott Galloway]

Say more. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a movie called Sheep Detective. It's essentially, as my wife says, knives out, but with sheep. And Julie Louise Dreyfus plays the principal, but Hugh Jackman is in it. He plays a guy who's a shepherd and there's a murder mystery and it's really good. It's shockingly good.

[Scott Galloway]

He's very good too. Hugh Jackman.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Anyway, it's about this bunch of sheep that solves a mystery. And Greg from Succession, I forget his name was in there. He plays the police person. And it's just delightful. It's a delight. And Emma Thompson is in it. And it's one fucking delightful movie about sheep detection.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I was out in the Cotswolds and I ran into a guy who was carrying two sheep under each arm. And I said, you shearing? And he said, nope, gonna fuck both of them myself.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. I knew you'd come up with a sexual remark.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my God.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, I recommend it. When is this other movie coming to the United States? Is it opened or not?

[Scott Galloway]

Honest answer is I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

I've never heard of it. I like serious Sacha Baron Cohen. Is he serious? Cause I think he's quite.

[Scott Galloway]

He plays an executive who comes back who hits his head and comes back as a woman and deals with. I mean, it's sort of the social commentary. I actually think feminists are gonna hate it because it's the same kind of a man who's a cat, goes through on a hero's journey and he's deep down he's a good guy and discovers he's a good guy. I think the story is somewhat. A little bit passe and trite and outdated.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, Mel Gibson was in that movie. Do you remember? He hit his head.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Where he had to wax and everything. But the chemistry between Sasha and Rosamund and the production values. And also they just do such a great, hilarious job of all the little Easter eggs. Like, instead of five guys, it's five gals. It's Victor's secret. It's like you realize every single ad is about essentially objectifying women or about. Or praising men. It's actually pretty clever.

[Kara Swisher]

I wonder what happened. If you hit your head, would you come back?

[Scott Galloway]

You know what happened? I got concussed playing soccer.

[Kara Swisher]

And is that what's still ongoing?

[Scott Galloway]

You're living it.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. That would be an interesting movie.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you call someone who transports Che?

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Sex trafficker.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. Oh, God, oh, my God, oh, my God. Do you know what I did this weekend, though? What did I really briefly power washed everything from the winter. My whole day. And then I had.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, now I gotta tell a lesbian joke.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you call a lesbian dinosaur?

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Elix. A lot of puss.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow. Wow. Is that bad?

[Scott Galloway]

You asked for it. I knew you were just setting me up.

[Kara Swisher]

I love my power washer so much. I got rid of all the winter grit, and then I had a barbecue with my nice friend Audie Kwan.

[Scott Galloway]

You're so performative in your lesbianism.

[Kara Swisher]

I love my. I'm sorry. I love it. I'm going to. I'm going to power wash you next time you come.

[Scott Galloway]

If you go away, I could use it. Are you going to come to any of the property markets live tour?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yes, I will come to at least one. Can I run on the stage naked and run off that could.

[Scott Galloway]

You can absolutely run on the stage. I want you to answer a question or something, or we'll bring you out or we'll do something fun.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, well, let's get straight to the breaking news of the day. Elon Musk just lost his high stakes lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI, which alleged OpenAI had violated a prompt to remain a nonprofit after deliberating less than two hours, which means they didn't get the free lunch. A federal jury ruled unanimously, 9 to 0, that Altman and OpenAI did not betray their nonprofit founding missions. There was a statute of limitations, technicality, but I think they're basically saying, elon, you giant adult toddler. Too bad, Scott. We've been saying this all along that this would happen. Check it out. I think this jury can't possibly side with him. I mean, ultimately, I don't think they proved any. And it's A sort of he said, he said kind of thing. And Elon's the most loathsome of the pair, right? By far by Country Mile. So I think Elon's made a spectacle of himself. If he wins, it would be something else like I'll tell you that. But I can't imagine the jury thinks this guy got a short end of the stick or that he's stupid and didn't know what was happening. The judge backed the verdict and dismissed all claims, including one against Microsoft. Both men are racing towards massive IPOs with OpenAI valued at over $850 billion. And SpaceX expected to go public very soon after merging with Musk's xai, which has been pretty much of a failure in the AI department. Possibly one of the reasons for this lawsuit. Thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

Look, as predicted, I thought this was an easy one and I thought this was a messiah complex. And sellers regret cosplaying a legal argument. The only thing that came out of this entire case was that Musk was fucking a board member in that she nor he disclosed it after he had left. I mean, well, if.

[Kara Swisher]

If they did it that way. Let's be. We don't know how that happened.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. You're saying she. She would. It was immaculate immaculate conception.

[Kara Swisher]

And just know because there was. Let's not get into it. But they're romantically involved now. Okay, got it.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. This was lawfare. And this was again, I am turning. So I think we now need alternative minimum taxes of 60 or 70% on anything over a billion dollars for an individual because these individuals are under the impression that they are not subject to the standards of Western society, decency or any or the law. The fact that they would even. He would even bring this case.

[Kara Swisher]

Nonsense. Waste of time is.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, you don't have a legal argument. But I'm Elon Musk and nonprofits are allowed to convert to for profits. They do it all the time. He tried to convince them to become a for profit that he would control. And when they said no, he left and started his own for profit AI company and then six years later decided to give up all ownership and governance of that. Now that was worth $850 billion. He wanted some of that or he wanted to at least slow it down for his failing LLM. We've made a lot of predictions. We get some wrong. This was a fucking layup.

[Kara Swisher]

It was. I have to say, one of the things that people. Look, first of all, it's a waste of our legal. Our legal time. It's a Waste of those nine jurors time. It was ridiculous. How. Let me tell you, all of them came off badly, right? Sam Altman doesn't look good. Siobhan Zillis, the alleged person girlfriend thing. No, she is this girlfriend, I guess. I don't know. I don't care. But Greg Brockman, the only person who came off like an adult is Satya Nadella, who's the CEO of Microsoft. Right. He looks like he did the right thing. He handled it well. All his texts are fine. The rest of them look like fucking babies and unhappy and just why are they in charge of our fate? Why are they. Why are they so unhappy and so rich? All kinds of like weird dramas between them, personal dramas and it's a waste of our legal systems time. It's just ridiculous. The judge seemed perplexed as to what it was doing there. And again, it does come down to Elon Musk and sour grapes. He has the sourest grapes on the planet, even though he's about to become the richest person on the planet. Right. In the history of the planet. Other thing is that both of them are sucking wind while Gemini and Anthropic are lapping them. Right? So all this waste of time and energy over companies that have problematic real problems right. In their own thing. And it's just the whole thing is just. And I think the fault lies of course, with Elon Musk, who just can't lose. He's a sore. He's a sore winner is what he is. I don't know what else. And he's a bad loser essentially. And do you think it'll affect their IPOs or positions in the overall AI race? Because I don't see anyone coming off well except for Gemini and Anthropic in this deal, essentially.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, Gemini and Anthropic win by just pure virtue of the fact that this is a big distraction for a non competitor XAI and a real competitor OpenAI. The only nuance I would add to your comments is one, there's a small fraction of people, us included, very small, that were tracking the nuance and the details of the case. Generally speaking, the majority of people will read this today and it distills down to a very basic thing. Musk lost and Altman won. So I actually think Altman comes out of this as a winner.

[Kara Swisher]

Fair.

[Scott Galloway]

That's fair because the majority of us didn't listen to the testimony and just how petty and childish and weird these people are. So it's like they'll remember one thing about this. Oh, Musk lost and Altman won. And I think the prediction markets, I don't know what they were. At one point it had Musk at 50%, which was a great bet. But the thing I looked at was the secondary market, and I didn't see shares in OpenAI decline in value. So I think this gives new, not new wind, but existing wind in the sails of the OpenAI IPO. And also, I don't think it, to be fair, I don't think it hurts Musk's ipo, because I think people are so intoxicated for many good reasons by the IPO of SpaceX. This was. And the most interesting thing I saw in the CNN article that we just pulled up was the judge almost appears to be wallpapering over why they didn't dismiss it in the first place. Why did they even let this get to trial? Because the judge was saying that she. You know, one of the reasons I was thinking of dismissing. You're going to have legal scholars look at this and go, how the fuck did this ever go to trial?

[Kara Swisher]

Because of a technicality? Because a statute of limitations. Correct?

[Scott Galloway]

Was that it? Yeah. Well, statute of limitations. And also there is a certain. There is a certain benchmark for what actually proceeds to a jury trial.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Nuisance law.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. So I think this will go down as. I don't want to call it a nothing burger, but something that was distracting for them, that people, the TMZ of the tech community, loves reading the testimony and all that. But at the end of the day, this is a speed bump. Not even a speed bump. A bump for both firms. But the distillation is the following. Our court system still works. Musk lost, Altman won. But bigger picture, neither of their IPOs is threatened by this.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, who the fuck cares is what I thought. The whole thing was such a. Like, I do think I agree with you about the nuance. I think you're absolutely right. No one will remember that. But, boy, did I get an insight to what a bunch of fucking babies these people are. Really, truly, I thought that. And now I'm like, unconfirmed. And like, a lot of the stuff like that I had heard about Zillis not telling the board about the pregnancy, the twins and stuff. I heard that and I was like, that can't be. And then it was like a lot of. And Greg Brockman's journal. And I know that's sort of like we're interested in it, or I am, at least, but it does, really does. I was like, I thought they were babies. And Indeed. In court. They were babies.

[Scott Galloway]

And so can I tell you about my pregnancy story? Conflict.

[Kara Swisher]

No. What is.

[Scott Galloway]

You don't want to bring the pregnant.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm pregnant with my baby.

[Scott Galloway]

You want to bring. Stranger things have happened. Okay, so you gotta tell me you want the story first, though.

[Kara Swisher]

I want the story. Go ahead. Really briefly, though.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, Scott, briefly is an oxymoron. So I'm a professor. I'm just getting traction at Stern. It's like 2000. When was it I should know this? 2007. I'm finally getting traction as a professor, and my dean calls me and says, I need you to come up right away. And when the dean calls you and says, come up right away, it's either very good or very bad news. So I roll up there, and he goes, okay, so there's a rumor. And he goes, there's a second year who looks like she's about to give birth. I mean, she's clearly very, very pregnant. A second year student.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no.

[Scott Galloway]

And there's a rumor that you're the father.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, True story. He goes, there's a rumor that you're the father. And I go, well, I've got good news and bad news. And he literally put his head in his hands. He went, oh, fuck. And I said, the bad news is I am the father. And I said, the good news is we've been having sex for several years. We disclosed in her application that we were living together and in a relationship together.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. And a pivot.

[Scott Galloway]

We didn't tell anyone, especially students. And I didn't tell any of my colleagues. I just disclosed it when she was applying to the school and. But yeah, that was. I had knocked up. I had knocked up a student who was walking around.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no. Oh, God. Okay. All right, on that note, I had a lovely pregnancy. And it was all in a.

[Scott Galloway]

Open AI.

[Kara Swisher]

Open AI.

[Scott Galloway]

And then I went on to do the IPO of Red envelope and a market cap of 108 million.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, God. That ended badly. Okay, it did end badly, by the way. The legal stuff isn't over. Moving on to more OpenAI legal news. The company is reportedly weighing possible legal action against Apple over how ChatGPT has been integrated into devices and apps that were just waiting for this trial to end. And here we are. This deal that OpenAI thought would bring billions of dollars in subscriptions has not turned out that way. OpenAI believes Apple failed to give ChatGPT prominent placement in Siri and iOS and didn't significantly promote the integration. Apple has its own concerns about OpenAI as they should questions around privacy and the company's p into hardware and devices. They did hire Jony I ever bought his company. Another sign of the fraying relationship. Apple is planning to let users choose between multiple AI models the way they do with search, even though they favor Google, including Gemini from Google and Claude from Anthropic across its software. Later this year, maybe they'll sell the poll position to one of them, but supposedly it was supposed to be OpenAI Thoughts here?

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know what the contract is, but it kind of goes to the notion that even one of the most powerful companies in AI, it's all about placement and distribution.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

Even going as far back as when I was running a strategy firm and we were working for Levi's, they initially decided they needed to go vertical because J.C. penney's would put their own Arizona brand at the front. I mean distribution just has so much power. Right. And even someone, even something as powerful as OpenAI, if you put them at the bottom, they're not going to get as much. But I've said for a long time I thought Apple was going to continue to be the arbiter and basically say unless you pay us a lot of money, we're not putting you at the top. Especially a company like OpenAI. But I don't know what the contract, I don't know if it's an actual formal breach of contract, but I would

[Kara Swisher]

argue that like the Disney Soros one that you had called out as possibly being a nothing burger.

[Scott Galloway]

I just, I wonder, do you really want to piss off the premier means of distribution with the kind of access to cheap capital that OpenAI has? And Sam Altman's a smart man. Regardless of what you think of them, I don't see I would be trying to figure out a way to cut a deal similar to what Google did. We're going to pay a shit ton of money and we're going to be your default AI. So I don't going after them legally. I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

Maybe Apple doesn't want them to be default AI. Maybe Apple does have concerns.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I don't know anything about. Do you know anything about the legal veracity of the case?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. I mean obviously the deal doesn't like these. They struck all these very high profile deals. Whether it was Disney which became a nothing burger. It was an experiment and didn't really go anywhere. They, you know, they did a lot of like ta da kind of things and this is the biggest one of them and Then they turned around and did the Jony I've thing. Right. Which has got to chap Tim Cook's ass like on some level. Right. Even though he's going to be stepping down. And at the same time they would have questions about what they want to do now. Of course, Apple is a pay to play kind of company too. By giving Google probably Google Maps are very good. Theirs were very good. There were other players they didn't give search to. They gave search to Google because they paid them. So they, they are, they will take your money. And Google certainly has issues around all manner of issues. So they didn't. They sort of overlook those. So I don't know, I just, I feel like they'll be. I think letting people choose between the multiple models is the best way to go. I don't love this place, pay to play kind of stuff because it doesn't. It may give you a good version, but it doesn't give you necessarily the one you want. So it seems to me that people should be able to choose their AI model since Apple's not going to be deploying that themselves. You know, if you want to use Claude, you should be able to use Claude and whoever made the best man win kind of thing. But that's hard to do because people don't really choose, do they? They just default, use Google Maps or Google Search.

[Scott Galloway]

I think they play on the inertia of consumers and that is they essentially. Basically my understanding is with Google Search being the default on iOS, they make it easier for you to use Google Sear than use Bing.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it comes with it. You have to go deep into the thing to change it. Like to any of them just it's like six, it's like a lot of steps.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean this is the same across all of big tech. Amazon, if you want to be in the golden buy box, you know, if you want to be top of search results, you have to pay. And the way they extract payment is that you have to use Amazon Media Group, you have to use their fulfillment and then the algorithm slowly but surely puts you towards the top or deprioritizes you. And it's like, it's like having a store on Mars just because you're on Amazon. Unless you figure out a way to do pay for play. I've said for a long time, I think eventually it'll move from these companies getting paid by Apple to Apple extracting a lot of payments from them. I think with OpenAI though, they're now,

[Kara Swisher]

well, Google pays Apple for those things, right? They do get paid for maps.

[Scott Galloway]

I thought Apple paid Google a billion dollars a year for access to a custom Gemini model.

[Kara Swisher]

So Google pays Apple to be the default search. But yes, Apple is paying Google around a billion dollars for Gemini. That will possibly switch. But in this case they did this deal with OpenAI, right. To make them the favored nation. At the time they did it, we thought that was pretty smart of OpenAI to move in there on Gemini and at the time Claude was not that big a player. Right. So it was sort of a move on Gemini and so, and here it didn't work out. And I bet Apple has all kinds of problems with their privacy issues and the sort of image around Sam, everything else, you know what I mean? Like that's what it feels like to me. It's like it's a regretful link or something. And maybe they aren't doing what it takes. But a lawsuit is not great for OpenAI, I assume. Correct or not, doesn't matter for Apple.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, the fear is amongst OpenAI is this hands Google's Gemini the keys of the Apple universe and that's the same keys they've possessed with search for two decades. Right. And Apple roots the Siri queries through its private cloud compute framework, claiming user data is never stored or used to train Google's models. And Apple evaluated or claims they evaluated OpenAI and Anthropic before choosing Google. I gotta think there's 20 billion reasons why Apple wants to maintain a good relationship with Alphabet.

[Kara Swisher]

Also that could be a court case in a future Democratic administration too. Right? Like they're not, they've already been in trouble for those deals. That's always been part of the thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, that $20 billion accounts for about 20% of Apple's annual services revenue. So it's real. I mean that is real. That strikes me as the perfect relationship. That fucks consumers.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. They'll get paid. Apple will be the payee here. They're not going to pay Google.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh no, no. They control the distribution, they control the interface, they control custody of the consumer. And it's the age old argument of who's more important, the distribution or the manufacturer's brand. And there's always an argument. And then the companies that get really, really have extraordinary shareholder value always either reverse engineer into creating their own brands and controlling and taking advantage. Everyone goes vertical at some point or they forward integrate and start opening, you know, original Levi's stores. They start opening their own stores. But in the case of Apple, they've done a great job of deciding what they're going to go vertical on and what they should just extract a lump of flesh for. And I would again, I've said this before. I think Apple, smart move. And as far as I can tell, their strategy is to decide that around AI. They're going to be the toll booth and let whoever the highest bidder is be the default AI.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it'll be questionable if they. As we talked about last week about whether they do this with Siri. Right. Because Siri just sucks. Are they going to make Siri better or use someone else's? Siri has never been intuitive. I spend more time arguing with Siri than anything else.

[Scott Galloway]

What I see, I think Oculus and Siri are arguably two of the worst brands in tech. Over the last 10 years. I think they've become total cliches for shit that doesn't work or that doesn't live up to its potential.

[Kara Swisher]

Because a lot of the AI interface is going to be talking, right? Like, hey, like you're on the. Like you're in Ironman. So who does that?

[Scott Galloway]

Scarlett Johansson will be her. Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Right. But who is that company? Is Apple going to default that or is that going to be their thing? Because they, they. I wish someone would do like a really deep dive into what happened with Siri. Why it's so bad and why it is under Resourced or. I don't really. I don't even know. But it seems to me like that's going to be the real interface, is the voice. But maybe not. I don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I think you're right. I think what I think where it's shaping up, one of the big the under appreciated or insights, is that from a sensory perception. I think AI is going to be more about your ear canal than your cornea or your eyes. And that is truly seamless. AI will be a function. And again, Apple will control the distribution with their AirPods. What you're saying is what will the branded voice be? Or will it be branded? I guess you'll have to say, hey, something to prompt it.

[Kara Swisher]

Is it part of it? Who runs it? Who's the backend? Anyway, I feel like there's a huge opportunity here for one of these AI companies because that's. But if anyone who's done a chatbot like this, it's the way to communicate. It's much faster. You don't have to type things in. It's much better. Anyway, speaking of, you may not get there because as these companies fight, Americans are pushing back on data centers, powering all of it, especially the AI. According to new Gallup polling, 7 in 10Americans oppose constructing data centers in their local area. That's no. Trump just had new polling. He's down even further. But they don't like Trump. They don't like data centers. The opposition cuts across every major demographic and political group. Although Democrats are significantly more likely than Republicans to strongly oppose these data centers. But Republicans don't like them either. Like, let's be clear. It's pretty interesting that it's something that's quite bipartisan. You know, a lot of people think this is going to be the biggest. I do too. When you hear from people, especially as Elon, like runs rough shot over the Tennessee town with his methane engines or whatever with these colossus, it just creates this feeling of, I don't know what it is. It's like these rich fuckers are fucking with our environment now. Right. And not to our benefit, essentially. But your thoughts on this?

[Scott Galloway]

I think it's the same reason that all these commencement speakers got booed when they mentioned AI. First off, no one is using AI more than college students. And there's also some evidence that it's not the demand on the electricity or the environmental concerns that, I mean, some people will argue, quite frankly, that has been exaggerated. I would like to see the scientific evidence on that, but there's just no getting around it. What this represents is the following. Whether you're booing Eric Schmidt or rallying against a data center, Americans see their prices going up and they're not participating in the wealth creation of AI. And it's just a proxy for income inequality that, okay, I hear about anthropic is worth a trillion dollars. San Francisco real estate prices are booming, jet sales are booming. There are 28 year olds who are lucky enough to get a job in coding at OpenAI who are selling 7, 10, $15 million in stock. And I can't afford detergent. I'm worried about food costs. And so when I hear a data center is going up 40 miles from me in Utah, I show up to the protest whether or not I see direct evidence of it hurting me or not. This is a way of saying AI has become indicative of income inequality. And so when anyone shows up at a commencement speech and starts lecturing them on AI or they hear about a data center, I think this is essentially a vessel of people just filling it and I don't want to diminish their concerns. I think there are some real questions that need to be answered around these data centers. But I feel mostly this is a vessel for people's rage around. It seems like everyone is doing well except for me and that America's giant bet on AI is paying off for a small group of people and I'm not part of that group.

[Kara Swisher]

Why not the companies themselves and why these? Cause I guess data centers are physical, right? They're here, they're there.

[Scott Galloway]

They see it gives you somewhere to go, protest.

[Kara Swisher]

It's also dystopian, right? They feel dystopian. They feel like they're probably not gonna have a lot of people running them. It's not gonna provide the jobs. They're around local governments to try to like pay off people, to put them in, in the way others. There are worries about the energy costs that will go up in these areas. There's like some real things and then there's the pollution aspect. And I think Elon's as usual been like the, the poster child for abuse of poor people. Right. These are usually in poor areas also. I think it's just even beyond the worries about things, it's more of a, a creeping worry about what tech is. Again, the more villainous. We don't assume the best of these people ever. Nor should we. That kind of thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, the one being planned in Utah, that's sort of been the lightning rod or kind of embodies this one. They have the wrong spokesperson. Kevin o' Leary is seen as someone who's not that empathetic, an old white guy who just does not appeal to this cohort. It's going to be two and a half times. The envisioned data center is going to be two and a half times the size of Manhattan. They have not figured out a way to communicate the economic benefits. And you're right, this notion that you could turn the lights off on these things during the day because there's so few people working there. The bigger threat in my view, and of course we're not talking about this, but if you look at history, when we have spent more than 3% of GDP on any infrastructure build out, whether it's the railroads, where I think we got up to 10%, we did two big build outs, whether it's the electrification and the highways, remember the telco infrastructure build out of the late 90s? Whenever we do that and go over above 3% in three years, there's a crash because. And what might make this crash especially severe is that railroads need upgrading every 50 years. Telco every 20 years. A data center is basically obsolete in four or five years. So I think obviously you need to look at the environmental concerns. You need to look at energy costs. But I would imagine there's so much money on the line here that these companies and these city councils would be able to come to some sort of accommodation around how do we ensure the local populace does not see its electricity costs just go through the roof, One

[Kara Swisher]

would imagine, and I know the Trump administration has been trying to. That I think the hiring of Dina Powell was the reason for that, is she's very. As president of Meta, I think that's probably going to be a lot of her jobs. These data centers worldwide, by the way, it's not just. It's also in the Mideast, it's also because they want to have big data centers there and they have much more control over their populace. But I do think it's sort of the last play of these governments not to put up with this. It's a really interesting dynamic of people who are. Sort of years ago, one of the. Joe Kennedy Jr. I think I've said this, came, I went to his office and he was talking about Amazon putting in a warehouse into his district. And he goes, well, what do you. This is probably good for people. I said, oh no, it's not gonna be good for people. They're not here to help, they're here to help themselves. I think people at their very core understand, as you were saying, that this is not for them. This is for others to benefit and it's not to help them in any way. So why should we give up environmental stuff or more energy prices, more than

[Scott Galloway]

environmental anyway, the curb or the retail story or the COVID story is we're worried about environmental and demands on the grid. I think what's really going on here is this is just rage at income inequality and big tech. And the data center is the manifestation and you can see it, that we can see it and protest against it. I think whenever we get to these levels of income inequality, we have war, famine, revolution. I would argue we have all three of those. But revolution always takes on a different complexion. I think what we have now is a series of small revolutions and they're going after people. They generally speaking, big tech, old people, white people, rich people. Okay, tell me you're involved in a data center without telling me you're involved

[Kara Swisher]

in a data center. I know Kevin Olia shows up with his multi million dollar.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, he's literally the worst spokesperson in the world for this shit.

[Kara Swisher]

That outfit he was wearing, I was like, oh my God, you literally look like, like the guy, you know, the Monopoly Man. That's what he looks like, the Monopoly Man. Like, it just is not. I'm not a fan of Mr. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

It's only a matter of days before you see AOC and Bernie Sanders at these sites whipping people up into a friend. It'll be like the modern day equivalent when Bob Barker used to go to animal shelters and just go crazy and.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Now, speaking of this, which I think is getting people furious too, and I do think this is. The new financial disclosures show Trump or his investment advisors made more than 3,700 stock trades in the first quarter of 2026 involving hundreds of millions of dollars. The filings show major buys in companies like Nvidia, Boeing, Intel, Microsoft and Oracle, many of which are directly affected by Trump administration policy decisions, as the FCC chairperson Ana Gomez calls billionaire buddy deals. In the case of Palantir, Trump made at least seven purchases of the stock totaling as much as $530,000 in March, then just happened to praise the company on Truth Social after shares suffered their worst week in a year the following month. I mean, what does it actually take to have consequences here? And does it all end up with Trump, or has he permanently changed what Americans will tolerate from presidents? Because this is like, there's a gr. I literally feel like he's gonna start taking milk money from kids like at some point, if you remember that, that expression. I just, this is like, is there anywhere he doesn't cheat and advantage himself in a way that's like really obvious? Grift. Like obvious and really kind of upsetting Grift.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I think, I think you asked exactly the correct question. And that is what can be done about it. I'm just, I'm, I want to move past the Democrats indignation and constantly bitching about it, but no real ideas on how to stop it. And so let's set the table here to your point about a level of grift that is just absolutely unprecedented. He has executed more than 3,700 trades in the first quarter of 2026. He's doing 40 trades a day, by the way, throughout his life. It's not like he's someone addicted to trading on Robinhood. And this is just him, you know, Trump being Trumpy. He usually didn't make this many trades in a year. And all of a sudden he has access to influence around these companies and he's decided to start trading stocks. Trump bought $500,000 to a million dollars in Nvidia stock One week before his Commerce department approved Nvidia chip sales to China, he bought somewhere between 1 and 5 million. The week before they announced a major deal with Meta, he bought Dell stock before he started carving up TikTok and giving it to wait for it, Michael Dell. The same with Oracle. And we have unfortunately relied on a series of norms that has resulted in every president since LBJ using a blind trust. Obama did index funds and treasury bills. Everyone else has put their stuff into a blind trust. He claims his trust is blindish because his sons operate it, who are the same people roaming around extracting a pound of flesh.

[Kara Swisher]

And on the trips to China, just here to support dad, like, give me a fucking break.

[Scott Galloway]

So look, insider trading, or the veil or the appearance of insider trading, has essentially defined Trump's second term. Just before Liberation Day, more than a dozen government officials made well timed stock sales. What a coincidence. So his meme coin hit a $27 billion market cap inauguration week with 58 anonymous wallets making over a billion dollars dumping it, while 800,000 retail investors lost 2 billion combined. Fifteen minutes before Trump announced Iran peace talks, 500 million in oil futures and 1.5 billion in S and P futures

[Kara Swisher]

traded hands Kalshi trading, who knows?

[Scott Galloway]

It's absolutely. So let's be clear. There appears to be an unprecedented pattern of information that seems to be only available from Trump or people surrounding him engaging in what feels like either market manipulation or what could classically be defined as insider trading. And the damage there is, it's not only a conflict of interest in skewing their decisions, it creates a lack of trust in the markets where people think if I don't have insider information, I shouldn't buy stocks because the person buying or selling stock has more information than me. And you start to see Russia, which has a total stock market value of what our stock market trades about every seven seconds. And you lose access to cheap capital and your whole economy starts to decline because companies can't find pools of capital that are formed based on a certain rule of law and fair play. The question is, okay, great, now what do we do about it? And this is where I think the Democrats again have fallen short. And that is, we're long on indignation, but we're short on ideas. And I believe that someone running for president should say, one of my first acts is I'm gonna work with the following states ags. I think there's been insider trading. I think they'll have to disgorge, at a minimum their profits, including Democrats, including Democrats who've engaged in insider trading. I think there has been wire fraud. I think there has been effectively what announced defense concerns or violations of the emoluments clause. I'm gonna go after cabinet members, I'm gonna go after their sons to the letter of the law. And the key here is I'm gonna do it with the following state AGs such that this legal action is not exempted or protected by a presidential pardon. But somebody needs to lay this shit out. We are.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, well, Rahm Emanuel has. Others have, several have.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me be clear. Rahm is the only one.

[Kara Swisher]

He just laid it out in a piece.

[Scott Galloway]

Rahm is the only one who's actually moved to the ideas part of, of if I worry we are going to be in for a rude awakening if we think we're gonna win just based on indignance and hating Trump, it's gotta be all right, what are you gonna do about it? And the way you get legitimacy here is one by saying, any Democrat that's engaged in this bullshit, which they have, we're going after as well. And also don't think a presidential pardon is gonna get you out of this, folks. Cause this comes down to incentives. And until these people believe they could be subject to something on January 21st of 2028 or excuse me, 2029, they're going to continue to engage in it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Because these are easily. You know, these cases are much easier to win by the way, in terms of.

[Scott Galloway]

There's digital proof everywhere.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. I have told you this. But there is a group of technologists who are saving crypto things for later. Like, so later when it happens, like when you can do something like this, they'll be.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, they have prints on the trades.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yes, they have been watching it, they've been collecting it and they're holding it. And so there are, there's an ability to track this stuff, folks. And you're absolutely right. This grift has got to be. They're not gonna. Some of them are gonna. Look, Trump probably is gonna walk away. Let's be clear. Unfortunately, getting our hands on him is gonna be pointless, anger filled.

[Scott Galloway]

Let biology take care of him.

[Kara Swisher]

Let him. He's old, like he is not gonna be gotten. But the sons of these people and the Lutniks of the world, all these people, it feels what's happening with Witkoff. And all these kids are like swanning around. I can tell you. They're swanning around Washington. And there is dumb and dumber doesn't even begin to describe them. And they are just, they're just, they're just on the make and it's grotesque, it's just grotesque what's going on here. And let me tell you, the people who are mad about data centers, they're also taking advantage of everywhere else. And so fuck you is their, fuck how to fuck you is their, is their operating principle. And they can do it in a shortcut way without working at it. That's their favorite. And so I agree with you. This is what any democratic person wants to come and talk to us. We will give you a speech for you to do this. Anyway, we have to go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon Musk planned to make sure no one can fire him from SpaceX. Another monarchy. Support for this show comes from Vanta. If you're a business owner, you might have noticed that risk and regulation are on the rise. Customers now want proof of security before they commit, and earning that trust is critical to closing deals. But the process can be expensive, complex and time intensive. Vanta says that's the challenge they're here to solve. Vanta automates your compliance process to bring compliance, risk and customer trust together in one AI powered platform. So whether you're prepping for a SoC2 or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving. Vanta automatically automates the process of achieving and maintaining compliance with over 35 security and privacy frameworks. This helps companies get compliant fast and remain compliant, opening doors to major growth opportunities and freeing up valuable time. Vanta says companies like Ramp and Reuters spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta. That's not just faster compliance, it's more time to scale. So if you're tired of sifting through old audits and spreadsheets, you can get a system that's always working in the background, keeping you compliant, reducing risk and helping your business scale fast and with confidence. You can get [e-mail] pivot that's V A N T A.com pivot vanta.com pivot. Support for the show comes from upwork. Scaling a business takes the right expertise at the right time. Upwork helps growing teams quickly bring in specialized freelancers so you can move faster and take the business business to the next level. Upwork is a one stop platform to find, hire and pay expert freelancers, letting you delegate and then just keep it moving. You can find specialized talent across web and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations and more, browse profiles, review their past work and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence. 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DeleteMe can help protect your personal privacy or the privacy of your business from doxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. I use Delete Me quite regularly. I'm always shocked about how much information is there about me and how easy it is to delete me using the really good dashboard. Last year, the New York Times wirecutter named Delete Me their top pick for data removal services. So what are you waiting for? Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete Me plan when you go to join deleteme.com pivot and use a promo code Pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot code pivot. Scott we're back with more news. SpaceX is expected to file for its IPO this week, which will be interesting. I'm excited for you to read it and tell me all about it. At a valuation of roughly $2 trillion. Aiming to go public June 12th on NASDAQ, we're also learning about more about the governance structure. No surprise, CEO Elon Musk would control a super majority of Class B stock with 10 times the voting power of ordinary shares. This is not uncommon. Google and other companies have this meta things like version of this, the prospectus says Elon can only be removed by class B shareholders and he will control the election and removal of directors as long as he holds his stake. Investors are warned this will limit or preclude your ability to influence corporate matters. It's already in place right now by the way. But come on, of course he's going to do this. And there's another, yet another incentive for Elon. If SpaceX reaches a $7.5 trillion valuation and it establishes a 1 million person colony on Mars, he could receive up to 200 million in shares. Let's talk about the board membership. Scott, because you've been an investor, you've been a board member. Elon defended on X, writing I need to make sure SpaceX stays focused on making life multi planetarian extending consciousness to the stars, not pandering to someone's bullshit quarterly earnings bonus. In other words, he doesn't want to have a public company, but he wants the benefits of a public company. Only thing I will say here, he truly does believe in this multi planetary extending consciousness. It's this is not marketing on his behalf. He has a demented loony idea that humanity will die and he should be the God of Mars. So, and speaking of war, but your thoughts on this entire thing, besides monarchy and godlike feelings that he has?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, just a brief history of dual class shareholder companies. They were originally invented by media companies who claimed they wanted to pursue journalism without the vagaries.

[Kara Swisher]

New York Times.

[Scott Galloway]

Well yeah, a bunch of them actually almost a lot of them said, and there's some legitimacy there, these families said, we don't want someone who hates us to show up and start dictating editorial control. So we want to maintain control. Whether you believe that or not. Fine. But then the first tech company to do that was the Google guys. Google, they said we want two classes of shares. And what's interesting is in the late 90s there was was a rumor that Sequoia was trying to sell its shares in a private Google because they really clashed with Sergey and Larry who demanded two class of shares. And that was so unusual. And Sequoia's thought was you're not going to be able to get public. You're not a newspaper company, you're not a journalism company, you're a tech company. And basically Google then everybody else has followed in Google's footsteps. Now to be fair to Musk, you know, when I went on the board of the New York Times and was the largest shareholder, all I really was was heckling from the cheap seats and Effectively an advisory board, because the family, which now gets 10 seats and everybody else gets five seats. So while you get some sort of representation you really don't have, at the end of the day, the family decides what they're going to do over Thanksgiving dinner. The Ford family's the same way. They own very few shares, but they control the company. And tech has figured this out. So this is nothing new. And to be fair, most of the academic studies have shown that dual class shareholder companies have not vastly underperformed single share companies.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I don't think that's the issue. They can't be fired.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, he's in charge. And not only that, but I mean this is where the shit'll get crazy. And I can't wait to read the S.1, you know, Adam Neumann wanted his kids to inherit the company and Musk is saying so. But the reality is shareholders have a choice around whether they want to buy shares. And what you do with a tool class shareholder company is one, eventually you get a bad king and two, you take out a premium of a possible takeover. And that is Warner brothers discovery. When AT&T spun Warner Brothers, they demanded a single class share stock such that the company could be put into play. And whenever a company is a single share class share company, it usually trades theoretically at a bit of a premium because someone could come in and buy it. So this is just, you have to decide whether you believe in Musk and to be also just the market says people are not only willing to put up a dual class shareholder company, they're willing to buy at what are errant, abnormal, extraordinary valuations because of Musk's involvement. But this is these super voting shares started with media companies or newspaper companies, then leaked into tech and now almost everyone is doing it when they go public.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. That I don't fault him on of course. And by the way, he's been running Tesla like that anyway without having this kind of thing right. It doesn't matter. The board does whatever he wants. It's a completely bought and paid for board essentially. And so he gets that shares and he always threatens to leave and he throws a fit and it just didn't work at OpenAI. That's what happened there. They're like, yeah, we'll be fine without you. And they were for a time. So I think this is not an unusual thing. And you do have to realize he's not gonna, he is a key man here. It's just that like one bad night in Austin and you know, that's the problem with all this stuff or he loses interest like he's done at Tesla. Now the shares have stayed up because it's a meme stock, but the company's not headed in the right. He's just lost interest in it and is. You know, that's the problem you have here is these single monarchies. Same thing with, with Zuckerberg. He happens to be vibrant right now, but boy, has he made a series of idiotic moves that would have gotten other people fired. And he won't be fired. And it is part of a mentality of I am the king, I am the God that you have got to buy into. But it has enormous risk because it's all based, predicated on one person. And sometimes that's good, but sometimes that's not so good. I just feel like that buyer beware, essentially you can do well.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that Musk. I think there's no way to build a company like SpaceX or Tesla without having a ton of good people around them. The reason why the messiah complex comes into effect, and that is no one is allowed to get near. I'm pretty sure the fastest way to get fired at Tesla or SpaceX is to ever say anything at a mic. Only Elon is allowed to talk. This is all about Elon. He's the genius. We don't. There is no Ruth Peratt, you know, there is no Tim Armstrong. There is no.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Scott Galloway]

There's no one else. Anyone's allowed. You're locked in the basement.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I just interject? When I wanted to interview Gwynne Shotwell years and years ago at one of my code conferences, they said only Elon will speak to you. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? She's obviously doing an amazing job. Like, I really wanted to focus.

[Scott Galloway]

No, no, it's all about Elon.

[Kara Swisher]

Only Elon. And I was thinking like, I remember at the time being like, well, that's fucked up. Because she deserves. Like I want to hear from her anyway.

[Scott Galloway]

But what I would suggest investors do when the S1 comes out and I'm going to spend some time on this, is not focus on the dual class shareholder structure, but simple, basic boring stuff or the boring knitting of valuation. And that is the following. At some point an amazing company is a shitty investment if it gets too expensive. And at some point a shitty company is an amazing investment if it gets cheap enough. And let's just talk about valuation here.

[Kara Swisher]

Here.

[Scott Galloway]

Google IPO trading at about 10 times trailing revenue and it was growing revenues 240% before the IPO. So 10 times revenue, growing 240% a year. Meta IPO'd at 28 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 88% a year. Before the IPO, Saudi Aramco 5 times trailing revenue, growing revenues 41% a year. SpaceX will IPO at 109 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 20% a year. And to be clear, space is the ultimate addressable market. They have moats the size of the Amazon, but it's going out at 10 times the valuation on a multiple basis as Google did with a tenth of the growth. And then if you just want to look at valuations, Amazon went public at 900 million, Microsoft at 2.3 billion, Apple at 7 billion, and Google at 40 billion. And what SpaceX is targeting 2 trillion. So all I have to say, is SpaceX an amazing company or is it massively overvalued? The answer is yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yeah, well, we'll see. And you can still do well. Okay, moving on very quickly. Louisiana Senator Bill Cassie lost his Republican primary after President Trump targeted him in retaliation for voting to convict him in his impeachment trial five years ago. Trump backed Representative Julian Letlo, who finished ahead with about 45% of the vote on True Social. Trump celebrated law, saying that Cassidy's disloyalty to the man who got him elected is now part of legend. And it's nice to see that his political career is over. Cassidy took a swipe at Trump during his concession speech. Let's listen to a clip.

[Scott Galloway]

And when you participate in democracy, sometimes it doesn't turn out the way you want it to. But you don't pout, you don't want, you don't claim the election was stolen. You don't find a reason why. You don't manufacture some excuse. You thank the voters for the privilege of representing the state or the country for as long as you've had that privilege.

[Kara Swisher]

So interestingly, also just a related story, the Supreme Court blocked an effort to revive Democratic backed Virginia congressional map that could have flipped several GOP House seats. The map had been approved by voters but struck down by Virginia Supreme Court. And Supreme Court did not give a reason for denying the emergency appeal in the order. They usually don't meddle with supreme courts really is what I'm told. So there's some worry that Democrats should worry about the political environment. Others feel no, that it's not the case. That it was a good thing to have, but not a must have. I mean, this Cassidy thing is interesting because suddenly again, like Thom Tillis he's found his balls and he does have until January to do something about it. He's the one that backed rfk. And even though he knew better, he did lot. He voted yes for Pete Hegseth. Shouldn't have done it. Now can be regretful of it. I know Tillis took a really big slap at Hegseth this week. These two could make trouble for Trump until January. Quite a bit of trouble. But you know, as Tillis did with the. With around the Fed chairman vote. So what do you think about this? I mean, democracy is democracy and Trump has power in these states. So thoughts about both things.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm torn because I understand. I'm sympathetic to the notion that you can't do good if you don't get elected. And this is no longer the Republican Party, it's maga. It puts these people in a very difficult position. I also think there's some legitimacy to the argument that Bill Cassidy should lose his medical license because to be. Well, he was the swing vote.

[Kara Swisher]

I know that.

[Scott Galloway]

God couldn't believe it. They got rfk. I mean, I've said this before. No one is doing more damage abroad than Secretary Hegseth. No one is doing more damage to children domestically than rfk. Junior Measles is on the rise.

[Kara Swisher]

I know you tweet. I mean, it's repulsive. He's a murderer.

[Scott Galloway]

He's a murderer. And this is the doctor. He took a Hippocratic oath and he confirmed a guy he knew who was creating fear and insecurity around our great medical institutions and around in demonizing vaccines. And he's a fucking doctor. I mean, so I wanna feel some glee here. But here's the problem. It was good to have a doctor on many of these panels. He was about as reasonable as they came. The person that's probably gonna replace him is gonna be worse. So this is just one of those things. It's not like shavings of shit on a shit salad. And it's fun to be gleeful about it and say, senator Cassidy, you're. You know. The only thing I know that's gonna come of this is, oh, my God, wait and see the testicles that this senator is suddenly about to find he has.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he just did.

[Scott Galloway]

Just watch him on Bill Maher. All of a sudden, he's gonna turn into a truth teller. I can't wait to see what he says about RFK now. And the problem is, folks, that's not when we need your testicles.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Scott Galloway]

That doesn't mean that's not when we need you to be a leader. So I just think this is, you look left, you look right and this is shit avenue because he was a reasonable guy. You do need medical professionals on these panels to say, okay, one of us is a doctor, everyone else shut the fuck up. I think that training does pay off. I believe in expertise, I believe in credentials, I believe in peer reviewed research, I believe in science. And so should America. We, we need more doctors. I think in Congress, the person who replaces him, and he must be pissed off because quite frankly, while they're saying he came in third, he actually barely lost because he got 25. The other candidate who was anti Trumper, not a Trumpie, got 28. So if he had just gotten 28 or 29, he might have won in the general. I gotta be honest though. You know what I'm so excited to see?

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God. He's going after village idiot, Lauren Boebert.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, he's going after Lauren Boebert.

[Scott Galloway]

And I just want to say I'm going to host a fundraiser for Boebert and it's going to be whoever wins. She has to go on a date with your 17 year old son. I think she is the best date for a high schooler. Oh my God, she'll let you Groper.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to say we're moving on.

[Scott Galloway]

She goes to Beetlejuice.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[Scott Galloway]

Where were you when I was 17, Representative Boebert?

[Kara Swisher]

No, you didn't say anything about the Democratic thing in Virginia. Briefly, because we got to move on.

[Scott Galloway]

But I said this last week. We're hoping that redistricting is beat by vibes. I just don't think there's any way to polish this. This is bad for Democrats.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think he can't deny polling. Polling is polling and everywhere it happens, you gotta win by winning the votes. That's the way you gotta do it.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, but I take the other side of that. If you gerrymander enough, you can win more than you deserve.

[Kara Swisher]

I still think it's an overwhelming. It's going to be a train. All right, we'll see, we'll see.

[Scott Galloway]

And by the way, another talking point, Pete or Rahm. This is my grid. I took a grid. It's my 8 year old did it. Pete has little kids. He drew eight lines exactly equidistant horizontally and he put it on top of the U.S. map. And this is what I'm going to propose for congressional districts. I'm going to de gerrymander the United States. I think that is a great talking point right there.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's another good one. Let's go on a quick break. We come back the reality star in the LA mayoral race. Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, journalist dean at usc and now along with her husband Bob Iger, owner of the Angel City FC women's soccer team Willow Bay. I said, bob, are you interested in doing this? And he said, absolutely, but I was definitely the driving force, I think, in the conviction about Angel City. Check out pretty tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Klaviyo. There's only so many hours in a day. Klaviyo's two powerful AI agents can make sure your team spends them on big things. The first Klaviyo AI agent turns your marketing ideas into reality instantly. Describe what you want a holiday campaign, a Vib Re Engineer engagement series and Klaviyo builds it instantly. Email, SMS and push all coordinated on brand grounded in 14 years of Klaviyo marketing data, nothing goes live without your say so. The other Klaviyo AI agent keeps your customers happy at any hour. Brand trained to answer questions, make product recommendations and handle orders and returns. No hold music marketing that launches instantly. Support that never sleeps. Join more than 193 brands including Away, Patrick TA and Dollar Shave Club already growing with Klaviyo. The autonomous B2C CRM get started at klavi o.com.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm Mitch Purse, two time NWSL Champion, Championship MVP and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Scott we're back with more news. This one oh my God, you could have run for mayor of Los Angeles. At this point, Spencer Pratt, formerly a reality show of the hills and a generally awful person, is unexpectedly emerging as a contender in the Los Angeles Mayor's race. Amongst so clear he's going to win, but he's got the M.O. despite his lack of political experience, Pratt has gained traction through viral social media campaigning and support from figures like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk, of course, Elon Musk. Pratt has built his campaign around frustration with the cost of living and the city's response to wildfires which destroyed his own home. A lot of reporting by Harvey Levin has shown most of the stuff he's saying to be nonsense. Thank God for TMZ at this point. He signed up, of course, an unscripted series following his bid to be mayor and going into mayor of course. Cuz this is all a scam with Spencer Pratt and elsewhere in California politics, which seems insane at this particular juncture. California gubernatorial candidate Tom Steyer is under investigation after his campaign paid influencers to post favorable content without clearly disclosing it was sponsored. California law requires paid political content to include disclaimers, as it should, and state regulation now looking into whether those rules will violate it. Both Democratic and Republican groups reportedly spent millions of this type of endorsement over the past few campaign cycles. It's very. It's propaganda. So reality stars influencers. Of course it's California. Spencer fucking Pratt. Like what in the fuckity fuck? And a lot of people donate to him, by the way. Don't live in Los Angeles, but that's neither here nor there. Thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

I had a friend call me and ask me to have him on the Raging Moderates pod. And like a reality TV star, he lost his house in the Palisades. He's very good on camera. He understands social media. He's got a lot of momentum. He's running against what I think is a weak candidate and a frustrated populace. LA has become a little bit like I would describe it as Cape Town. There are some areas of Cape Town I think this is the nicest place in the world. And then if you venture a few minutes outside of them, it gets really ugly really fast. And the homeless problem, you know, I think it's fair for people to say I'm paying some of the highest taxes in the nation and I have to walk this way to my kids to school so they don't see a homeless man masturbating or shitting in the street streets. You can understand the amount of bureaucracy trying to deal with the fires. A lot of people don't like the way the fires. This is ripe for somebody to challenge Karen Mayor Bass. Where I land on the fall is the following. Spencer Brat embraced Alex Jones, said 911 was an inside job and brought up doubt about Sandy Hook, go fuck yourself. I would vote for anyone over someone who has embracing Alex Jones disqualifies you to run as one of the great cities in the world. So this guy is evidence again of revolution and people so angry and so upset. I hope. And it's also evidence of just how hard it is to find reasonably competent people to run for office.

[Kara Swisher]

Like Rick Caruso was supposed to challenge her.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Rick would have been great. I'm trying to get my friend Jamie Patrikoff to run. Run. He's nice. He loves la. He has the money, which is important. He's pragmatic. He's a business person. None of these people want to put their family or themselves through this bullshit. Also, somebody has to come in and take on many of the special interest groups, including unions, including entrenched Democrats. And it is a. A lot of people will say people really thoughtful go la. Like California has become nearly ungovernable. And that is the special interest groups are so entrenched and so hard to overcome. There's so much bureaucracy. It is so hard to find talent to try and do this. Everybody wants theirs. And that. It's becoming very difficult. But Spencer Pratt.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. It's just amazing that somebody. That people are backing this guy. This guy. And by the way, I'm not kidding about Harvey Levin. He actually showed how much he was living at the Bel Air Hotel and was pretending to. Anyway, look, there's frustration over everything. A lot of the stuff that he's talking about is not the responsibility of Bass, but there's anger at Bass about how she handled that. No question. There's anger and frustration about homelessness. There's anger and frustration. But. But your choice is not to go with Spencer fucking Pratt, by the way, who's just one con after another. He really is. He really is. And lie and con after another. There's another council member who's also showing some. A little bit. Not momentum, but some numbers who had backed Bass and now is running against Bass probably should. I hate to say this, but probably strike some sort of deal with Bass. Step down and let. She will probably win Bas Will because she's. There's no. No Latinos or black people are voting for Spencer Brat. And it's all outside money. It's all people who have like very little interest in it. But he is articulating in anger, even if he's the worst vessel possible.

[Scott Galloway]

That's how we got Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

That's exactly right. But this guy makes Trump look like a genius. Like, let me just say this is not even close. It would be such an embarrassment for this to happen in San Francisco. You get Daniel Lurie, someone who's a really. Who's doing a good job. And by the way, I still don't think Lennon Breed did the worst job. It just was she had a lot of stuff that got piled up on top of her and didn't have the tools because of different legal things that got passed later that you couldn't deal with the homeless issue there. But now Lurie can. You need someone like Lurie. Find someone like that who is gonna be like, maybe a little more centrist than the left wants. Maybe a little not as conservative as others want. Right. Someone who's gonna try to solve problems and at least make an attempt to do so. And instead, this laughable, like, con man is the person you're picking and full of constant lies. It'll be a disaster. For Los Angeles is one of the most beautiful places on earth. And if they could be. Los Angeles compared to San Francisco is a quantum level of difficulty of running. It just is. Let's be clear. But this is not what you want. I think Bass has started to acknowledge the problems, is just saying all the right things. It's likely she'll win. But the momentum for this fucking clown especially. Let me tell you, anyone who calls me from Los Angeles and several have that say they're looking at them. We are no longer friends. Like, sorry, just sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

But the reason they're looking at them, quite frankly, you're being very generous to Mayor Bass.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? I am. I am. I agree. I think she has not been great. But this is the choice you have, right? This is the.

[Scott Galloway]

Fair enough. But there's a couple takeaways here. Mayor Lurie and Democrats, especially Democrats in executive role roles, not legislative roles. There's a difference. Governor and mayor. It's an executive role.

[Kara Swisher]

Agree.

[Scott Galloway]

And what Mayor Luria is doing. And every Democratic mayor needs to take a note out of this page booking governor. Because if Democratic governors and mayors can't figure out a way to not make their cities come across as shitholes, it is going to be very hard for them to run. They've got to show they have the ability to say no to special interest groups and be about blocking and tackling such that they focus on quality of life issues. And what Mayor Lurie has done that is so impressive is if you ask him about Israel, if you ask him about Ukraine, if you ask him even about a national issue, bodily autonomy that doesn't directly affect right now San Franciscans who have Access to family planning. He says, I'm not gonna talk about it. That's not why I'm here. Every mayor and governor in the United States thinks that their mayoral or their governorship is a kickoff campaign for them to run for president. President?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

No. Get the subways to run on fucking time. Figure out the way the trash gets picked up. Figure out a way to strike a deal with the unions if you're dealing with that. Such that they make good livings. But it's not. They're not making $180,000 a year for this.

[Kara Swisher]

100% agree with you.

[Scott Galloway]

In retirement. Stop talking about national and international issues. No one gives a fuck what you think. Run the city. And that is exactly what Mayor Lurie's doing. And he's very popular and he's getting a lot of support and he's getting shit done. And he's making hard decisions around homelessness and around municipal transportation. The other thing I wanna say that'll be. Tom Steyer has basically been accused of astroturfing. I mean, that's effectively what it is. You're paying for people who endorse you who don't disclose their endorsement. Okay. So is everyone else.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Right. I get it.

[Scott Galloway]

When Mamdani was running. Running and I said anything about the mayoral race. Hundreds of comments from bots. You're going to tell me they somehow weren't connected to money and his campaign.

[Kara Swisher]

No. It's a part of modern political life.

[Scott Galloway]

And so if Tom Steyer doesn't astroturf, then good for him. And he's going to lose. This is now the world we live in. Unless the platforms figure out an airtight way to get rid of anonymous account accounts. And unless they start going after agencies that claim to be PR and comms firms. You are. Let me go further. You're stupid not to astroturf back because everyone's doing it to you.

[Kara Swisher]

It is. It's just that there's gotta be a way to solve this because it's such like. It's so noisy.

[Scott Galloway]

The platforms have to do it.

[Kara Swisher]

No, absolutely. It's so noisy we can't hear what people are saying. In this case, it looks like. Probably Becerra looks like he's surging ahead at this point. But that whole California race has been insane. Like all of them got to. Someone needs to knock heads there. But no one could knock heads anymore. Right? So it's sort of a race to be an influencer or something. Or some version of cheap and dirty. And that's a real shame. It really is. It's. You know, California is an important state and should be governed by serious people. Both its cities are important cities. They've led the way on innovation. Whether they have troubles. Now, that's a different issue. But you know, it's taking governance for. As a joke. And that's the real ugliness of the Trump administration. Creating everything like a grift and a joke.

[Scott Galloway]

Tap into anger. Great social media.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, he's playing you folks and you know you're going to have to. I wish there was an alternative to Bass that was serious and I get why you would want to be behind it, but this, you're doing this. There's something wrong with you. There's something real wrong with you. Anyway, we'll see what happens. We'll see. He may just fade. Just get. Cause he's such a. Seems like such a village idiot, but we'll see. And if he wins, watch out.

[Scott Galloway]

I've watched some of his stuff. I'll give him. I think he's actually. He's got some of that Trump charisma.

[Kara Swisher]

He does.

[Scott Galloway]

He's got some of that.

[Kara Swisher]

That's why he was a successful reaction.

[Scott Galloway]

Anger and outrage tapping into again. This all comes back to the same thing. People are getting 110 notifications on their phone that everyone's making bank and has a high hot boyfriend or girlfriend except them. Everyone feels as if they're falling behind. And when you're falling behind and you're angry, chaos is your preferred candidate.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct. You're absolutely right. Anyway, well, we'll see what happens there. I don't be interested. Don't have Spencer Pratt on, if you don't mind. You can, but you have to whack the shit out of him.

[Scott Galloway]

No, Jess said if we do that, we have to have Mayor Bass on. And I'm like, I, I don't. I'm not going to platform. Anyone who said 911 was an inside job and is and has shared the stage with Alex Jones and other than saying my heart goes out to the victims of Sandy Hook, that's just disqualifying. I'm doing a lot of virtue signaling right now, but those are red lines. Those are red lines for me.

[Kara Swisher]

Those are good virtues, I would say. They're not virtue signaling. It's virtues.

[Scott Galloway]

They're virtuous.

[Kara Swisher]

What? Virtuous. Those are good virtues. There are some good virtues. Truth these days. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Complex and unprecedented. The Spanish authorities are calling it

[Scott Galloway]

Passengers

[Kara Swisher]

who'd been stuck aboard the Hanta, or maybe hantavirus stricken Dutch cruise ship, disembarked in the Canary Islands this weekend, prompting the highest stakes game of where are they now? Since maybe Covid. Some of the evacuees, American and French, have since tested positive for the virus. And yet public health officials seem remarkably calm. We do have one individual who was taken to the biocontainment unit early this morning. And we assessed that individual. They are doing well, possibly because this is not the one to freak out over today. Explained drops every weekday afternoon.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, so today we're driving to southern New Jersey and heading to a data center. A couple weeks ago, I read a story in NJ.com and it was all about how there's a data center going up in Cumberland county, the poorest county in New Jersey, that's receiving some community pushback. And this immediately got my attention because data centers are going up all across the country. I feel like we should be hearing politicians talk more about this, but we haven't really heard a consensus. Are data centers really a necessary evil? Let's find out. This is technology we've never seen before.

[Kara Swisher]

Experiment. We're experimenting down here. And we're the guinea pigs.

[Scott Galloway]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

And we're the guinea pigs. Exactly.

[Scott Galloway]

One thing that happens in this country is there's no planning for the future.

[Kara Swisher]

Is it benefiting people or is it

[Scott Galloway]

benefiting the elite and the money that's

[Kara Swisher]

going into their pockets?

[Scott Galloway]

This is not about abstract politics. It's about people's everyday lives. That's this week on America. Actually,

[Kara Swisher]

this week on Criminal. A man leaves his girlfriend at the top of a mountain. He's charged with her death. And then at the trial, his ex girlfriend testifies that the same thing had happened to her too.

[Scott Galloway]

She screamed, she felt dizzy, and, you

[Kara Swisher]

know, at that moment she realized she

[Scott Galloway]

was, like, completely alone. Thomas apparently left her.

[Kara Swisher]

On our other show, this is Love, a story of another couple on a mountain. There's no ledges, there's. You're trapped. Had confidence that there's no way this

[Scott Galloway]

many things can go wrong in a row.

[Kara Swisher]

You can listen to both episodes right now on Criminal. And this is Love wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's do some wins and fails. Should I go first?

[Scott Galloway]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. I'm gonna put it as a win and a fail on both now. I love Stephen Colby. Right? I love him. I think he's really funny. I think he's gonna have an enormous career after he leaves. I think they're overdoing it on the Goodbye tour. I have to say, it plays. I hate to agree with people, but it's like.

[Scott Galloway]

It's like a woman's birthday party that turns into a jubilee coronation for two fucking years.

[Kara Swisher]

Come on, leave already.

[Scott Galloway]

We get it. Leave.

[Kara Swisher]

It's the five white guys. I was like, you're not making yourself feel like. I get it. I'm pissed myself about being parent. The takeover. I am. But I'm not gonna, like, go on about it. That said, what I did love is when they bring Letterman back, who I love when he's mad. Like, I love a Letterman anger. And I think it's really funny. And that was sort of his brand, sort of dyspeptic anger. And they threw the furniture, and then they threw the melons and they threw the birthday cake off the roof. I thought that was so funny and just exactly all I needed. So that was my win and fail at the same time. And when he says, good night and good luck, motherfucker, that made me laugh hysterically. Like, do it in humor. But it's getting, like. It's getting a little much. God, I can't believe Megyn Kelly said a version of this. And I hate to agree with her, but. And I love Stephen Colbert, and I think he's got. I think they're not telling the truth about what happened here. I do know that these shows are declining and this is the way it goes. They could have done a lot of other things, but just stick with the funny and we all know you got fucked. Like, I get it, but just go on and do great things. That's what I would say. I just am feeling a little bit like, okay, boys, there are lots of people that get fucked, so let's do something about it. As you say, all right, you're win and fail. People are gonna be mad at me, but I love Stephen Colbert anyway.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I have a fail and a prediction. And, okay, so my fail is Nicholas Kristof. And what I believe is a breakdown in standards of the New York Times. And his piece on Palestinian prisoners, I think is my fail. And not because the subject isn't serious and not because it's an important issue. I believe that our military operations in Western societies and democracies need to be held to a higher standard. And whether it's a second strike on a boat, not a Navy vessel with survivors and not giving them quarters, or the abuse of Palestinian prisoners, I think that the IDF should be held to a higher standard than any military in the Middle East. So it's not that it's not an important issue. But there's a line in the piece suggesting that dogs were trained to rape prisoners. That's an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require a level of evidence that was not met here. Not vibes, not hearsay, not someone said, if you're going to publish something that incendiary, you need airtight sourcing, multiple corroborated on the record confirmations or clear documentation. And if someone who has a background or experience with Belgian Malinois and has come very close to adopting a canine dog, the notion that a dog can be trained to physically rape somebody, it's just fucking ridiculous. And I feel that they're not informing the public. They're injecting a narrative accelerant into one of the most volatile conflicts on the planet. And here's the bigger problem. When legacy media outlets, especially one that has the prestige, the reputation, the talent of the New York Times, runs with claims like that that aren't bulletproofed, they're not risking being wrong. They're risking a further erosion and trust in everything else that's true. And they hand ammunition to people who want to dispute, dismiss all reporting as biased or fabricated. And this isn't. I'm trying not to take sides here. I think this is about standards. War is where truth goes to die on both sides, which means journalism needs to be really disciplined. And if you lower the bar because the story aligns with your priors, you're no longer doing journalism, you're doing advocacy with a byline. And I think that these abuses, the ones that can be proven, get discounted because the media couldn't resist the most shocking version of the story. This reminds me of all those stories about child soldiers that really upset people for the right reason. You take something innocent and talk about killing, taking dogs and combining it with rape. I read it and I thought this is just over the fucking top for the New York Times.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, can I just. I'm not gonna push back because I think there's a lot of controversy around this story, that it was in the opinion section, that in this case it probably the New York Times reporters on the scene should have written, written a follow up story or something to talk about this. Now Kristof is known as an excellent journalist, has done amazing Pulitzer Prize. Not just that, not just because he won the Pulitzer Prize, but like amazing work on all sorts of abuses across the world. And he's been accurate. He's a very good reporter too. But this was an opinion section piece, as you know, and the New York Times has been very supportive of him. But I think in this case, this should have been also reported because of the nature of it. You've got to have like extensive reporting on this, even if, because it's so incendiary and I think probably I don't know what happened and they need to talk about it. But the New York Times is backing his reporting. The question is, should they do more reporting? Right. And if this was the same allegations on the Israeli side as, I mean, on the Hamas side of the same sexual abuses, same thing, right? Like allegations, same thing. And so that's what's important here is to do as I think you double report stuff like this, triple report and quadruple report. It'll be interesting to see how it, how it pans out. Because the Times has been backing him on this stuff and he is citing a lot of UN Stuff. He's citing a lot of reports on the scene, he's reciting a lot of stuff. But it requires extra, extra, extra reporting. As much as, you know, that may seem offensive to some, I think I do agree with you here. They've got to really button it up in a way that because of the incendiary nature and where it is at the same time, even if you have a side and you feel like that war does result in terrible abuses of the citizenry.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I'm going to defer to you on journalistic standards. I just read it and thought, I have trouble. This seemed so unbelievable that it required more than more evidence and better reporting than I felt was evident in the article. And then on something that is so important in terms of how we in the west, and I do consider Israel, Israel is an ally and part of the west, the standards they should be held to are really important and deserve, they deserve scrutiny. I mean, I get it. People who, when people claim I'm not anti Semitic, I'm anti Israel, I say to them, you know, I can relate to that because I don't like Netanyahu, but I care so much about Israel that I would like to see Netanyahu voted out of office because I don't think they have acquitted themselves well in terms of many of the ways they have approached this conflict. I get it. But when you, you reduce the veracity of your reporting on this key issue and other ones by. As someone, I don't feel like I have domain expertise around how prisoners are treated. I have some domain expertise around dogs, quite frankly. And I just thought, okay, I can't even. This is unimaginable for me, for someone who has spent a lot of time around Belgian Malinois for them to say that. And then I'm like, where's the evidence? Where's the proof? Where's the dog trouble? The corroboration, the further investigation? And it wasn't there. And I thought it reminded me of when you see those unthinkable pictures. At the end of the war, Americans were really horrified by what they saw in concentration camps. They were almost as horrified by The Germans enlisting 14 year olds and sending them to the front lines. Because you took children, something innocent and you collided it with some, something heinous, killing other people. And this reeked of that to me. Let's find the most innocent creatures in the world, dogs, and let's combine it with rape.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, let me just read that just for this, for people to know. We'll see where it zeros out. But I'm assuming they're going to do further reporting would be my guess internally. And there's a lot of people saying they're going to retract it. Kristoff has said this is not true. This is, this was the quote that the New York Times gave just so we have it. There is no truth to this at all. Nicholas Khrushchoff is a two time Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who has reported on sexual violence for decades and is widely regarded as one of the world's best on ground reporters documenting and bearing witness to sexual abuse experienced by women and men in war and conflict zones. He traveled to the region to report firsthand on the stories of Palestinians who suffered abuse. And this article collects accounts of the victim's own words backed by independent studies. So we'll see. This has another chapter happening because they're getting such pushback and including from Netanyahu. So I do hate to say, like you have to do extra reporting on certain topics, but I think you have to anticipate even if it's Netanyahu or whoever it happens to be and have everything locked up tight. I would agree with you on that. Anyway, we'll see where it goes.

[Scott Galloway]

I thought that was a productive conversation. I appreciate it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, no problem.

[Scott Galloway]

No problem.

[Kara Swisher]

People are going to be mad anyway no matter what.

[Scott Galloway]

But there's no talking about this without everyone going to their corner.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And getting very upset. And I understand that. Look, my, this is, I'm not supposed to do prediction, but I couldn't help it. It just struck me as fairly obvious you're going to see an invasion of some of the islands off the coast of China. Well, Let me back up. Basically my prediction is Kinmen and in Matsu Islands are going to be invaded in the next 24 months or seized. And you're going to have what, by the Chinese? Yeah, you'll probably have an economic blockade. You can't have. I don't think an amphibious assault of Taiwan is feasible. And I think China, after seeing what's happened in Ukraine and Iran and the fact there isn't a single person in the Chinese military who has any combat experience, I don't think they want to get an amphibious landing in Taiwan is unthinkable. However, the Straits of Taiwan are where, where 50% of all shipping goes through. I think a soft economic blockade is coming for the following reasons. A show went down my spine when on Air Force One, Trump was asked if he would support and defend Taiwan. And he said, I'm not going to let anybody know that. What is clear to me and the fact pattern is just so obvious here is that Trump is concerned with one thing and that is becoming the wealthiest man in the world world. And I believe he sold out Taiwan in a private meeting at that summit. And evidence of that was for the first time an American president has said, well, I'm not going to say anything about how I feel about America's continued support of Taiwan. And it's not only turning our back on a democratic ally, but the basic counterbalances amongst between US Sino relations is the following. They control 90% of the processing of rare earth materials. We control 90% of the most advanced chips because, because of our tight relationship with Taiwan, if China gets access to those Taiwanese chips, which is another reason they wouldn't do an amphibious invasion, because they don't want to destroy those factories. But if they use their economic clout to do what is effectively a soft creeping takeover of Taiwan and we're not there to support them, China has won 100%.

[Kara Swisher]

It's the move. It's the move. You or them.

[Scott Galloway]

And I think Trump, I don't think Trump gives a shit about geopolitics, the decline of US negotiating leverage. I think he cares about US consumers.

[Kara Swisher]

He doesn't care about.

[Scott Galloway]

I think he cares about one thing. I think Xi, if I were she, I would have said the following. You know, you realize I'm super interested in your core coin and with just a fraction of our budget, I could use offshore accounts to take the Trump coin. I think I can get it worth, here's my math guy here. I think I can get it worth to be 2,300 billion because price discovery's at the margins. I think I can take it there within say, 90 days, six months before your presidency ends. And then you'll have 90 days to divest of your hold buildings. And by the way, is there any way you can move out Ohio class submarines from all the straits of Taiwan? And by the way, I think economic reintegration of Taiwan into the great nation of China would make sense without any bloodshed. What do you think? I think that conversation has already happened and I think evidence of it was what he said on Air Force One.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's in, moron.

[Scott Galloway]

And again, another talking point for a Democrat. We will back Taiwan economically and militarily if necessary, because chips are the future. Don't get backed into a corner about threatening another forever war. Say chips are the future, folks. And Taiwan is an amazing ally of ours and the only reason that we have control over 90% of what is the new oil in an information economy, and that's chips. We cannot let Taiwan go to the Chinese. Make an economic argument, not a military argument.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I would do on top of that? I would make Jensen Huan move to Taiwan. See how he feels about that. Like with the Chinese blockade, like, let's have some. Selling chips to the Chinese is such a mistake. It is such an advantage we have. You are 100. I love this prediction. Scott, you should be mayor of Los Angeles. That's what you should run.

[Scott Galloway]

I'd run on the in and out ticket. In and out. Burger ticket.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, we could run. Top advisor in speech.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I can. In.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm in. Okay. Anyway, Scott, that is really smart. That is a really. You're absolutely right. That's exactly how they're gonna do it. And Trump has sold out a critical, critical part of our security. And calling David Sanger, by the way, can I just, just last thing. David Sanger, speaking of great New York Times reporters, is one of the top reporters in this area. Calling him a traitor is. Is the one of the more. There's so many heinous things Trump says, but just, just absolutely, as I always say, every accusation is a confession. He's the traitor. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thank you for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Todd Wiseman. Ernie and her Todd entertained the separate. Thanks also to Drew Bros Missiveira and Dan Shalanda Shot Karaz, Vox Media's Executive Producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, I will see you on Thursday.