Elon's Drug Denial, Trump's Tariff Play, and Taylor Swift's Master Move

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary: "Elon's Drug Denial, Trump's Tariff Play, and Taylor Swift's Master Move"

Release Date: June 3, 2025

In this episode of Pivot, hosts Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway delve into the intertwining worlds of technology, politics, and entertainment. They examine the recent controversies surrounding Elon Musk’s alleged drug use, President Trump’s aggressive tariff strategies, and Taylor Swift’s strategic acquisition of her master recordings. The discussion is peppered with sharp insights, critical analysis, and the hosts' trademark banter, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of these high-profile topics.

---

1. Political Discourse and Senator Joni Ernst's Controversial Remarks

The episode kicks off with a critique of Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa, who faced backlash for her comments on Medicaid cuts during a town hall meeting.

• Kara Swisher [07:51]: "Well, we all are going to die, Sarah."

Senator Ernst’s offhand remark, which trivialized constituent concerns about Medicaid, sparked outrage. Swisher criticizes Ernst's approach, labeling it as immature and ineffective in addressing serious policy issues.

2. The Decline of Civility in American Politics

Scott Galloway expands on the broader implications of such political behavior, attributing the coarsening discourse to the influence of social media.

• Scott Galloway [09:05]: "Social media has created a strong profit incentive in getting people pitted against each other and enraging them."

Galloway argues that the Republican Party's adoption of a "cruel and coarse" narrative is a reflection of deeper societal frustrations. He emphasizes the loss of respectful dialogue and the emergence of a toxic political environment.

• Kara Swisher [10:41]: "I do think people are going there's going to be a reaction to it when it's other people, not Trump."

Swisher concurs, highlighting the public's fatigue with aggressive political tactics and the yearning for more decency and calm leadership.

3. Taylor Swift's Strategic Acquisition of Master Recordings

The conversation shifts to the music industry, focusing on Taylor Swift's successful campaign to regain ownership of her master recordings.

• Kara Swisher [23:45]: "I think it's a smart move by Taylor Swift. She owns herself."

Scott Galloway lauds Swift's business acumen, noting the importance of artists controlling their own work to safeguard their legacy and monetization strategies.

• Scott Galloway [25:36]: "She can decide how [her music] is used and how it's not used."

Swisher adds that Swift's move sets a precedent for other artists, empowering them to retain rights and manage their creative outputs independently.

4. Elon Musk's Alleged Drug Use and the Doge Saga

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to scrutinizing Elon Musk, particularly concerning allegations of drug use and his management of Doge.

• Kara Swisher [27:58]: "Elon Musk says the New York Times was lying their ass off."

The hosts discuss a New York Times report alleging Musk's frequent use of ketamine and other substances, which contrasts with his public denial on platforms like X (formerly Twitter). Scott Galloway expresses deep concern over Musk's apparent lack of personal support systems, suggesting that his behavior signals a dangerous state of affairs.

• Scott Galloway [32:05]: "I think the guy is coming off the rails... he appears to have absolutely no guardrails in terms of a close friend network or a monogamous romantic relationship."

Swisher underscores the troubling nature of Musk's reported actions, questioning the tolerance afforded to someone of his stature despite evident personal struggles.

5. Trump's Tariff Policies and Trade Relations with China

The discussion transitions to President Trump's recent decision to double tariffs on steel and aluminum, aiming to bolster U.S. manufacturing but risking international backlash.

• Kara Swisher [46:49]: "So he's talking about the legal pushback on legal stuff that he couldn't do."

Galloway analyzes the potential motives behind Trump's tariff maneuvers, suggesting they may be designed to create market volatility that benefits insiders through market manipulation and insider trading.

• Scott Galloway [54:19]: "It appears they're creating massive volatility that them and their insiders can make billions off in market manipulation."

The hosts debate the efficacy and implications of these tariffs, particularly in relation to trade tensions with China. Galloway is skeptical of Trump's diplomatic strategies, believing they may ultimately undermine U.S. economic interests without yielding substantial trade concessions.

6. Ukraine’s Strategic Military Operations

In their "Wins and Fails" segment, the hosts highlight Ukraine’s recent military success in targeting Russian strategic bombers.

• Scott Galloway [61:18]: "This operation will go down in history as one of the great brave military operations."

Kara Swisher praises Ukraine’s ingenuity and bravery, viewing it as a morale booster and a testament to effective strategic planning amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia.

7. Concluding Insights: The State of American Leadership and Global Standing

Wrapping up, Galloway and Swisher reflect on the broader themes of leadership, reputation, and America's position on the global stage. Galloway warns of the dangers posed by influential figures like Musk who may spiral without adequate support, while Swisher emphasizes the importance of holding such individuals accountable.

• Scott Galloway [67:11]: "Americans don't come to America, but they're willing to work with us. They think twice before they try to damage us or steal from us because they know our memory is long and our reach is far."

Swisher agrees, stressing that incidents like ICE detaining minors tarnish America's image as the "good guys" internationally, thereby weakening its soft power and global influence.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway [09:05]: "Social media has created a strong profit incentive in getting people pitted against each other and enraging them."
• Kara Swisher [23:45]: "I think it's a smart move by Taylor Swift. She owns herself."
• Scott Galloway [32:05]: "I think the guy is coming off the rails... he appears to have absolutely no guardrails in terms of a close friend network or a monogamous romantic relationship."
• Scott Galloway [54:19]: "It appears they're creating massive volatility that them and their insiders can make billions off in market manipulation."
• Scott Galloway [61:18]: "This operation will go down in history as one of the great brave military operations."
• Scott Galloway [67:11]: "Americans don't come to America, but they're willing to work with us. They think twice before they try to damage us or steal from us because they know our memory is long and our reach is far."

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Pivot navigates through the complex interplay of personal struggles of influential figures, aggressive political strategies, and strategic business maneuvers in the entertainment industry. Swisher and Galloway provide incisive commentary on how these elements reflect and influence broader societal and global dynamics. Their analysis offers listeners a nuanced understanding of the challenges and strategies shaping today's technological, political, and cultural landscapes.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from HubSpot. Growing a business can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform can help. It's powered by Breeze, their suite of AI tools so you can generate more leads, close more deals, and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you see the results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more.

[Scott Galloway]

Foreign.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you ever wondered about all the incremental steps it takes to launch a rocket ship or maybe get a race car around a track or perform a life changing surgery? These feats of human ingenuity are executed by many people, taking many steps that lead up to one big goal, making the seemingly impossible possible.

Whether you're organizing a team, scaling a.

Business, or sending a rover across the solar system, Smartsheet is a work management platform that helps all those details turn.

Into one big leap.

Smartsheet Work with flow. Learn [e-mail] Vox.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for this show comes from Shopify. With Shopify, it's easy to create your brand, open up for business and get your first sale. Use their customizable templates, powerful social media tools, and a single dashboard for managing it all. The best time to start your new.

Business is right now. Because established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

Sign up for a DOL dollar per.

Month trial period at shopify.com Vox Business all lowercase go to shopify.com Vox Business to start selling with Shopify today.

Shopify.com Vox Business.

[Kara Swisher]

What would I do with it if I found your dick? That's an interesting question. Put it in the refrigerator. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

How you doing? Scott, where are you? What is behind you? Is that another AI situation?

[Scott Galloway]

Another situation? No, I'm in. I'm in the fine hotel in South Beach. I was in.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you're in the Paris.

[Scott Galloway]

Over the weekend I went to the French Open, which was lovely. And then I jumped on a plane yesterday and came here. Forgot my computer on the plane.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Which is part of the course. The third computer I've left on a plane this year. Year to date I've left three computers on planes. Why? Because if my dick wasn't attached, you'd find it on a card table next to a script of Goodfellas in Soho.

[Kara Swisher]

Kara, I'm so glad I didn't find that.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

What would I do with it if I found your dick? That's an interesting question.

[Scott Galloway]

There you go.

[Kara Swisher]

Put it in the refrigerator.

[Scott Galloway]

So anyways, I lose everything, but I'm at the I'm safe and sound of the Faina and my good friend Pablo Doritos saved my ass for bacon and got me a new Macintosh. And Drew and the team have fired it up and now I'm doing podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you ever getting your computer back?

[Scott Galloway]

The wonderful thing about technology now is it doesn't matter. I'll have a new one for me when I get back to New York. And they're dumb appliances. It's all in the cloud now. So some lucky flight attendant has a lot of porn coming his way this weekend.

[Kara Swisher]

I left things on planes and I go and find them. I go to the lost and found and I dig through it and I found all my stuff dispersed. All kinds of things. So I go and look for things when I leave them.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I do the trade off. I was going to go back to the airport and I figured it would cost me a half a day. I don't. I don't want to do it. I'd try to get another.

[Kara Swisher]

You're not worried about people getting access to your things on that. On that laptop? All your secrets?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I don't know. So they want to know. They want to know like what gobbler side I'm spending time at. Or like what.

[Kara Swisher]

I have a lot of personal stuff on my computer.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. My life isn't that interesting. It's pretty much arrested adolescence and someone who doesn't like themselves. It's not going to be a. It's not going to be that interesting a journey.

[Kara Swisher]

But you're right about that. You move your stuff moves with you throughout the cloud now.

[Scott Galloway]

It's really your computer doesn't matter. It's just a dumb appliance tapping into the cloud. It really doesn't. I lose a lot of laptops. I think it's much more damaging when you lose your phone because that takes.

[Kara Swisher]

A lot of time. It's hard to put together. Yeah, that's right.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

I noticed that your partner. You have a drawer of g. Of like AirPods and extra things for your computer because you seem probably. You lose them. Right. So they're sitting there.

[Scott Galloway]

I think one of the. There's a few things in your life that really connote luxury and economic security. And one for me is I don't have keys. I cannot have keys. I'm physically incapable of holding on the keys and I have no keys.

[Kara Swisher]

What about like a wallet? You have a wallet though, right?

[Scott Galloway]

No, now I just use my phone. Although actually I carry my black card because it signals masculinity.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, that's sad.

[Scott Galloway]

So I do like to throw that down and say, daddy's here. Daddy's here. And he's bringing.

[Kara Swisher]

You throw it down. You throw it.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah, of course. That's right.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. You can't explain.

[Scott Galloway]

It makes that big titanium that makes that big titanium sound like. That's right. That's right. Mate with me and your kids are more likely to survive than if you mate with someone who has a discovered.

[Kara Swisher]

You'Re not meeting anymore. So why do you need to have throw down the card?

[Scott Galloway]

You never stop wanting, though.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, okay. You never stop wanting to see the card. Okay. All right.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Anyways, what are you doing? Enough about me.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm in San Francisco again. Yes. I'm here for a week.

[Scott Galloway]

Why are you there?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm filming a secret thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Filming a secret thing?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I can't talk about it because stupid whatever, I'm filming anything. I'm going to be jumping in the Pacific Ocean.

[Scott Galloway]

NPR on cuts to the National Forestry Service DEI Department with special report with Kara Swisher.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, that's what I'm doing. But I will be jumping in the Pacific, eating oysters and hanging out with my brother, among other things as part of this filming. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah. So I love being in San Francisco. It's really nice.

[Scott Galloway]

Is this your health thing that you rope me into?

[Kara Swisher]

What? Yeah. You're doing it with me. Yes. You are doing it with me. You have to. This is not a Monday. Our relationship is over if you're not in it because I will cry. I will cry. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I'm excited.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, we're going to do it. It's going to be fun. It's a thing that has to do with health that I'm doing for an organization I have a relationship with.

[Scott Galloway]

Does it rhyme with cnn?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, it does.

[Scott Galloway]

Shocker.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not Fox, as much as I can say, or else I'll get a call from one of their Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

On the new American Mail from Fox.

[Kara Swisher]

Reports, deal with your debt and don't call me when I'm trying to make some money for you. Anyway, I'm here and then it's going to be fun. I was going to have the kids be out here and Amanda, but Claire is in public school, so she has to. She's there till the end of June, which Is interesting. So she can't. She must finish her.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, what's interesting about that? I'm still waiting for the intro.

[Kara Swisher]

She can't sing. I just. She's still in school. So. Anyway, I'm here and I'm going to have a great day.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you guys have any plans for the summer? What do the Swishers do over the summer?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I'm going to be taping this series, but go to Vermont. I think we'll probably go to Vermont. We'll do. Sorry, we're not the Galloways that are like, go from Aspen to. Ding ding.

[Scott Galloway]

What's the point of. What's the point of making all this money to go to Vermont?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't want to go to Aspen and hang out with you. Why would I want to do that? Vermont is pretty.

[Scott Galloway]

You so want to hang out with me.

[Kara Swisher]

I do. I like hanging out with you.

[Scott Galloway]

So want to hang out with me.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. But let me say, I am going to do a great vacation next year. Next year, next summer, I'm going to do Greece.

[Scott Galloway]

When you hit 70, you're going to start slowing up.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to rent it.

[Scott Galloway]

Stop and smell the road.

[Kara Swisher]

Italy or Greece. That is next summer. That is what's going to happen. That's what.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I love both those places.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I'm going to do something. Really. I had a big birthday party. When I do it a good thing, I do a nice thing. Anyway, I put away the Christmas tree, but I'm not going to get into that. We've got a lot to get to today, including Elon Musk. Musk and Ketamine. Obviously, Trump's latest fight with China and Taylor Swift's blockbuster business move. But first, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa had some very comforting words about Medicaid cuts for constituents at a town hall on Friday. Let's listen to a clip. Well, we all are going to die, Sarah.

For heaven sakes.

[Scott Galloway]

For heaven sakes, folks.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. But thank goodness. She's such an asshole to her constituents. But thank goodness she apologized afterwards on Instagram. Here. What she had to say. Uh, oh, I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that, yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize and I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the Tooth Fairy as well. My God.

[Scott Galloway]

What?

[Kara Swisher]

What? She didn't. She did a non apology apology. She was making fun of people for being angry at her. She is not. Joanie, you're not Trump, just so you know, you don't do a good job, you sound like an asshole. So it's interesting. They're all trying to cosplay Trump and none of them are good at it. So she was like, you assholes who thought I was mad for saying we're all gonna die when people were concerned about Medicaid. I mean, she's not a serious public servant if she can't be like, suck it up and answer a question and then she trolls them like a 12 year old boy. It's insane.

[Scott Galloway]

I think, more importantly, do you know what I have in common after my vasectomy with a Christmas tree?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know where this is going. Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

We both have decorative balls. All right, back to Joni. The thing that has become an unfortunate theme in the Republican Party, and I also think across America right now, and I was just talking to Jess about this, is I think social media has created. Has such a strong profit incentive in getting people pitted against each other and enraging them and then at the same time speedballing that rage by shoving all of the prosperity that everyone else seems to be enjoying. That people are just so upset and so angry and that they respond to the Republican Party being a little bit cruel and coarse. And I think, unfortunately, across the Republican Party, you're seeing this adoption of a narrative where they conflate leadership with cruelty and coarseness. And I just don't think you ever would have heard a senator say that.

[Kara Swisher]

I was shocked. I was sort of like, really? But they're all cosplaying Trump. Is it effective? Think of it from a marketing point of view. I could tell you no one thought it was funny with Trump. It might be funny. You might take it. Do you think it works across other. And especially, I'm sorry to tell you, Joanie doesn't work for a woman. It doesn't work for a woman to be a dick. Like, I. That's my feeling and I hate to be sexist about it, but she seemed like such a stupid little shithead. But what do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I. I think it reflects something deeper and more uncomfortable about the United States. And that is, we've decided that, you know, kind of cruelty is the point that you can cut America first. Okay, so we're not. We're not. We're closing down hospitals in Myanmar for people with serious diseases or food kitchens and war torn parts of Ukraine. But that somehow has been conflated with leadership. The coarseness and cruelty. And I think that these Republican town halls have been Awful for Republicans. They make for really good TikTok moments. But I worry they're not indicative of how a lot of America feels. Where America feels that, okay, you have these Democratic elitists that after they make their money with low taxes, all of a sudden get very concerned about me. 40% of American households have some sort of medical or dental debt. And every day, 210 times a day on my phone, I'm reminded about people having extraordinary lives that I'm not participating in. And then I have a social media platform that I spend five or seven hours a day on trying to convince me that it's my neighbor who's the enemy. Not people pouring over. Not soldiers pouring over the border in Ukraine. And I think there's just so much rage in America and so much anger against other Americans that an unfortunately large number of Americans kind of enjoy this harshness and this cruelty and distinct of what Joni's doing or Senator Ernst. I just think we've lost a little bit, a lot of. At the hands of. I don't think people recognize just how. How much our discourse has been coarsened by social media and that people have been. People have been. Have people in the ta. I was thinking just about dating. Do you remember when you were in your 20s and 30s and you were dating? Do you remember the politics of anyone you dated? It didn't come up and you didn't. There was a general sense that as Americans, we were these good people and we had a certain comity and a certain thing in common. You know what? Men and women liked each other. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think social media has done a great job of convincing the genders that the other gender is the problem, that men believe that women's ascent is the culprit for their descent. And that's not true at all. Whereas women think it's the patriarchy and that men don't have problems. They are the problem. We've convinced the genders, the greatest alliance in history, to dislike each other.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think there was hatred before that. I think it's just. It becomes manifest when. It's when she does. Like, she may have been irritated at this town hall, for example, because someone yelled at her. And by the way, if you're a senator, fucking man up, Joni. If someone yells at you, have the grace to be able to answer without being a douche nozzle. But I think that she is doing something that is coarse and rude, and I don't think it works. I think people are like, what like why are you such. I think there is still a sense of certain decorum and I agree with you. I was always worried about social media spilling out into the world, right. And it has, whether you're in a car, people yell at you on the street. You know, there's more and more and more of that that people behave online offline like they do online. That said, I don't think doubling down on douchery is the way to go. And I do think people are going there's going to be a reaction to it when it's other people, not Trump. I think people get tired of, people are already tired of it with Trump. I think they don't look, you see losses in all these places that they shouldn't be losing in. And I do think these common. I think there's a real opening for someone with common decency and calm it the fuck down everybody. I, I don't think everyone wants to spend their lives as a 12 year old asshole.

[Scott Galloway]

But it has to be decency, I think so. For example, I think the real opportunity that Democrats are missing is to propose an alternative to this tax bill where we seize this enormous white space of the adult in the room, right where we say okay, this is our plan. We're going to means test Social Security and raise the age limit. We're going to dramatically lower the exemption for the trust exemption. We are going to increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy and we are going to across the board hold Medicaid, Social Security and military spending flat for the next 15 years and even cut a 2% a year. And within eight years we're going to reduce the deficit from 2 trillion a year to 200 billion a year. And what they would do is Fox News and CNN would all line up these bills next to each other and say, okay, one expands the deficit or adds to the deficit 3 1/4 trillion dollars. This one will reduce the deficit. It pass. It has no hopes, but it would position the Democrats as the adults in the room.

[Kara Swisher]

This is Rahm Emanuel saying this. Just forget about the for reals talk about what you do, whether you're going to make it happen or not.

[Scott Galloway]

Instead we're clutching our pearls and highlighting these very real, very ugly things that are happening rather than saying, okay, you guys have to be more than what's bad about what they're doing. You have to propose your own solution.

[Kara Swisher]

Agreed. I agree with you. I do think there's, but I think there's, what I'm saying is in her doing this, this is what she's got the opening is to not just be the adult in the room, be the good person in the room. Right. Like the one who's gonna help people. And I do think people get tired of the dunking. They do. They don't like doing it themselves. Most people don't. And they don't like it being done to them. And so I do think there's an opening. The adult in the room is a good way to put it, but a kind adult in the room. And I think there's a huge opening for a Democrat to be like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Agreed.

[Kara Swisher]

Speaking of adults, Texas Governor Greg Abbott has signed a bill requiring an app stores to verify users ages to protect children online. The bill, which will go into effect at the start of next year, makes Texas the second state to patch such legislation, following Utah. Apple has argued the strategy will threaten the privacy of all users. They have good argument that way. Meta argues the app stores are the best party for the job. They're trying to trade it back and forth. It's really complex topic because it does come into privacy issues. At the same time, you and I agree that there's gotta be some way. I just don't who should be policing this situation. Would we be in a better place if all states pass similar legislation or we better off if the bill having hope in a bill like Cosa or whatever. How do you feel about this? Because who is the one that should. I mean cigarette manufacturers kind of have to have those warnings and the people who sell the cigarettes have to not sell it to kids, even though sometimes that happens. Same thing with liquor. What are your thoughts on this?

[Scott Galloway]

I feel like you know more about this than I do. When people come up with when they're faced with the problem or the issue of is it at the device level or at the app level. I think the answer is yes. And that is with tobacco. I think both retailers and manufacturers face liability. And my sense is okay. In terms of age gating, it feels like it should be at the device level because it seems like it would be more efficient and.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. You cover everybody.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. To say okay. Because we can track your activity across all apps. We have a pretty good sense for what your age is. And we don't, you know, we don't allow anyone under the age of 16 to have car keys or operate a car. So why would we let anyone under the age of 16 operate? I don't think anyone under the age of 16 should be able to operate a smartphone. I don't think you put a video arcade, a porn site, Netflix and a casino in a 15 year old's pocket. I just don't think that's a good idea. And then they have an incentive to make it so complicated that parents can't figure out parental controls. We tried to implement parental controls for my son last weekend and within about three minutes he'd figured out the password and reinstalled everything. So I guess what I'm talking about is at the device level maybe, but I still think the app should be on the hook for a second layer of protection. What are your thoughts? I think you need to wear two condoms here.

[Kara Swisher]

I think the difficulty is say when you go to a bar, they look at your license for a second and you keep it. So it's not a privacy issue. I think the idea of Apple collecting people's data like that seems a little troubling.

[Scott Galloway]

Privacy. Well, because they didn't get that argument at all.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, no, that's their argument is that they would be keeping the data of people's in ways that they don't now. Right. They don't know who picks up their phone or whoever it is. And so there are problematic situations of how you store that information and who knows who can see it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's no question there's not a privacy issue because it's a persistent validation. Right. As opposed to where do you have a persistent validation except with the government and your license plate, I suppose in a way with airlines, when you fly, when you give them your data or your birthday and stuff, stuff like that. So there's always going to be a privacy problem and there's going to be people who steal it or some issues around it. But it seems to me the device is where it should be and at the same time there should be some liability for in this case, Apple is the. Well, no, is the retailer, I guess and Meta is the cigarette manufacturer. Right. And so I think both of them should have some culpability. They should be working together rather than fighting over who has to deal with it in some fashion to make, you know, especially the top 10 biggest apps, for example, should all be working with all the device makers to make not just Apple but Google and everything else. So probably the device maker.

[Scott Galloway]

But there's the whole privacy argument I find just so cynical and indefensible because I have to give up my privacy every time I go on get on a plane. Not only that they, they get to go through my liquids, they get to, they know where I'm going and by the way, if I, if I buy a one way ticket, they violated my privacy and they're more likely to do an additional security screening. They know my age, they know my status. The guy at immigration looks through my passport and asks me, when was I in Israel and what was I doing there? You Americans, part of a modern society is the following compact. You agree to have a certain amount of your privacy violated in exchange for utility. And what they're claiming is that the privacy violation of a 15 year old knowing their age and identity, think about how ridiculous that is. So instead we're gonna enable this person to give their data and have their data molested by the CCP of who they are, their preferences, their sexual orientation, what they do, what their key relationships are. I mean, the notion that these people give a flying fuck about their privacy is just so. It's just not.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I agree, it's. LAUGHTER I think we should have a national bill like this and we should know who's using our phones. And on the road to younger people being restricted from using social media. And I'm sorry, K, that's what's gotten. I think, because we're old grandpas.

[Scott Galloway]

But one of the most powerful forces in the universe is biology, specifically the ways we change, mature, evolve, grow and die. And I don't think we spent enough time talking about what a powerful metric and indicator and arbiter of these rules. Ages. For example, if you are under the age of 16, you should not have a smartphone. If you are under the age of 21, you should not have alcohol. If you're under the age of 18, you should not be allowed to join the military. If you are over the age of 75, you shouldn't be allowed to run for fucking president.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, you're right.

[Scott Galloway]

And instead we've decided that we have this amazing indicator that is 95% of Americans over a certain age are incapable of doing a certain thing. 100% of people under the age of 16 do not make great decisions around drugs. So why would we not leverage this amazing thing called biology, as indicated by this other thing called age and time? For all of time, it has been a consistent indicator of someone's cognitive ability decline. And yet we decided with technology and with presidential elections, we're just gonna ignore biology.

[Kara Swisher]

You have convinced me. Biology is undefeated. I actually said that this weekend to someone. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm quoting Scott Galloway. What is wrong with.

[Scott Galloway]

None of us is getting out of here alive, Cara.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so anyway, we're with Texas. Oh, God, we're with Texas, but we are. All right. Also, this is something I want. Listen, I'm gonna challenge to Scott Galloway here. I want you to have a serious take without a single Taylor Joke. Taylor Swift has regained ownership of her master recordings after a years long attempt. Swift's Masters were previously owned by private equity firm Shamrock Capital, who purchased them from music manager scooter Braun in 2020. The rights include Swift's first six albums, music videos, concert films and more. She remade a lot of the songs that were on the Masters, Taylor's version, in order to go around them and they become very popular. Actually on most of the services you get Swiss version of her Masters, but she didn't own them. She reportedly paid around $360 million in the deal. I would like a serious take. What do you think about this, about her doing this?

[Scott Galloway]

I think it's capitalism. I think if she wants to own her own catalog, that's her business. I don't think she has any. I mean, she's an adult. I think this is pretty simple. I don't think there's much more to this than it's a marketplace and she has the rights, along with anybody else to buy them.

[Kara Swisher]

Why is it good to have this was what I was sort of interested in.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, she gets control. So for example, we wanted, when we were doing the intro song, which we spent six months trying to figure out for Pivot, right. It was just too serious. It wasn't right. So we wanted a new one. And I wanted, I thought, you know, we gotta pay the money and it would be worth it. We should get Tracy Chapman's Revolution. We both loved Tracy Chapman. We thought it was a great song. And somebody immediately said, no, Tracy Chapman doesn't license her songs because she's worried and she's worried that some car company is going to like a fast car. So this is what she gets. She doesn't have a toilet paper company or a suppository using Shake It Off. I mean, so she gets control.

[Kara Swisher]

Good, good idea.

[Scott Galloway]

Anybody who has. And this is really going to go crazy in AI when all of a sudden, you know, when all of a sudden, you know, Lincoln starts giving people advice because whoever owns his image and likeness licenses, licenses to AI. Or if Warren Buffett doesn't have serious IP protection that his heirs will agree to his heirs in three generations, some kid who's got a cocaine habit and has squandered all of his inheritance says, well, I'm going to start an investment app using Warren Buffett, his likeness and his image. So the advantage to her is that she has other considerations than just purely monetizing every ounce and every dollar out of her songs.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's a smart move to have on them. It's worth it to her. It's worth it. It's worth it to her.

[Scott Galloway]

She can control her legacy. She can decide how it's used and how it's not and how it's not used.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. She proves herself to be a very good business person. And at the time, it was the standard deal to give away almost all your rights. And so it is really interesting that a lot of artists are, including Ryan Coogler and others, are getting their rights in some fashion, whatever. The deals are getting very interesting in that regard and the reasons are are very many. In her case, it is to have to be able to monetize it in the way she wants to monetize it versus some hedge fund, for example. So smart move by Taylor Swift. She owns herself. She's a young woman. She'll be able to benefit from this for many, many decades to come, I suspect. And she wants her legacy to be what she wants it to be. So good for her.

[Scott Galloway]

Good for her.

[Kara Swisher]

Good for her. Good. Not making one Taylor Swift. No. Very nice. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon leaves Doge with a black eye and a new report on his ketamine use.

Support for Pivot comes from NetSuite. It's an interesting time for business, to say the least. Tariff and trade policies are dynamic. Supply chains squeeze and cash flows tighter than ever. If your business can't adapt in real time, you're in a world of hurt. You need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real time cash cash flow. That's NetSuite by Oracle, your AI powered business management suite. Trusted by over 41,000 businesses. It's the number one cloud ERP for lots of reasons. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one suite. You have one source of truth that gives you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. And with AI embedded throughout, you can automate a lot of these everyday tasks, letting your teams stay strategic. NetSuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast. With full control, you can tame the chaos with NetSuite if your revenues are at least in the seven figures. Download a free ebook navigating global trade. 3 insights for leaders at netsuite.com pivot that's netsuite.com pivot Support for this show comes from HubSpot Growing a business can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform can help help. It's powered by Breeze, their suite of AI tools so you can generate more leads, close more deals and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you see the results.

In days, not months.

Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Support for Pivot comes from Upwork. Scaling your business requires two things. You need the right expertise and you also need it at the right time. With upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in marketing, development, design and more experts who are ready to help you take your business to the next level. With more than two decades of experience, Upwork has a simple and ambitious to pioneer a better way of working. Companies at every stage turn to upwork to get things done and find more flexibility in the way they staff key projects and initiatives. And you can access a global marketplace filled with top talent in it, web, dev, AI, design, administration, admin, support, marketing and more. Plus, posting a job on upwork is easy with no cost. To join, you can register, browse freelancer profile, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation. From there you can connect with freelancers that get you and can easily hire them to take your business to the next level. Upwork makes the entire process easier, simpler and more affordable with industry low fees. Post a job today and hire tomorrow. With Upwork, visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com.

Scott we're back. Elon Musk says the New York Times was lying their ass off. I didn't know they had an ass. In a new report about his alleged drug use, he posted on X that he tried the prescription ketamine a few years ago and while it helps for getting out of the, quote, dark mental holes, he hasn't taken it since. Which is not true because he told Don Lemon he was taking it last year. The article claims Musk used ketamine often and also took ecstasy in psychedelic mushrooms in the last year. The Times is standing by its reporting quite strongly, noting the story was based on interviews, private texts, documents and photos. The drug use story dropped just as Elon had his big oval Office farewell, which was weird, where he sported a black guy he says came from his five year old son. After the sendoff, Trump insisted Elon's not really leaving, saying Musk will be back and forth since Doge is his baby. Talk a little bit first about the drug use, which I think everybody. It's so clear what was interesting, the Internet was populated with videos of him looking like he was on drugs. You can't find a video where he's not doing this weird neck eye thing that he does all the time. Talk a little bit about the drug use and then go to the Oval Office press conference and sort of any takeaways from the whole Doge saga. Just so people are clear. Elon's right hand man, Steve Davis also left Doge. Like Elon, he was special government employee limited. A lot of people are leaving. All the people that came in and took over Steve Davis wife is leaving. They're sort of dropping off. We'll get to the NASA head in a second. But talk a little bit about the drugs and sort of the legacy of Doge.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, well, sure, but the key piece of data here is that Taylor Swift has 500 songs about dudes leaving her and not one single song about giving a good blowjob. Just connect the dots, Kara. Connect the dots. I've got a sickness, Cara.

[Kara Swisher]

I couldn't help it. That is so.

[Scott Galloway]

I couldn't help it. I didn't hear anything you said. I was thinking about my Taylor Swift.

[Kara Swisher]

I know you were waiting. You couldn't hold it in. You can't hold it in.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't hear anything you said something about Elon Musk.

[Kara Swisher]

You love talking about Elon Musk. You put up so many posts about diapers. Just so you know, excessive ketamine causes you to pee too much in your pants. So go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

We got the world's most powerful man, the president and the world's wealthiest man, both wearing diapers. Look, I go to a different place with this. The first thing is I think that there is a mythology and lazy thinking around drugs and alcohol. And that is between 90 and 94% of people are able to manage their professional, their personal and their substance lives. That a lot of people do recreational drugs. A lot of people drink a lot of alcohol and are able to manage all of it really well. As a matter of fact, speaking for a fact.

[Kara Swisher]

But go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

The majority of people can manage it, but that 5 or 10%, it can come off the rails. And not only that, you become very susceptible to Moving into that decile if you have other stressors in your life. And for me, this isn't a story about drug abuse. So I think the guy is coming off the rails. And I want to be clear here. I'm not. In no way am I intimating violence or wish or harm against anyone. I think this guy probably has some of the lowest life expectancy of any public figure right now. Because when you are. I've been involved in two, quote unquote interventions. I've had a decent amount of people, professionally and personally who've struggled with drugs and alcohol. If the New York Times reporting is accurate, which I believe it is, his ketamine use and his and his other drug abuse he mixes a lot is so out of control. And then you couple it with something that's even more dangerous and it's a following. What all of the research is showing is that there's this myth or this trope of the woman who can't find a dude. And poor her, her life is awful because she can't find a guy and have kids, right? And the majority of the research is all leading to one place. And that is relationships in a heteronormative relationship are actually more beneficial and important to the male than to the female. Widows are happier after the guy dies than when they were married. Widowers are much less happy.

[Kara Swisher]

I will be sad when you go, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

I appreciate that when men don't have a romantic relationship as a guardrail, they come off the tracks. They become much more prone to self harm. They reinvest that energy in nationalist content, conspiracy theory, video games, porn. And I'm not pathologizing all single men here, but a single man is much more vulnerable to bad things in life than a single woman. A woman oftentimes when she has a lack of romantic opportunities, rechannels that energy into her friend network, into professional opportunities. And a lot of what's happening, I think in quote, unquote, if you call it a mating crisis, everything's a crisis now, is that women, as they've economically become more prosperous, have just decided on the whole these heteronormative relationships just aren't a great deal for them. And men really need relationships. And I think the thing that that is really dangerous in the cautionary tale here is that I don't think Elon Musk, in addition the nitro and glycerin here is that not only does he appear to have out of control drug use, but he appears to have absolutely no guardrails in terms of A close friend network or a monogamous romantic relationship. And I think that is just an incredibly dangerous cocktail. And what defines America right now is that we have an individual who is the world's wealthiest man making decisions that supposedly, according to several agencies, are going to result in several hundred of the poorest children around the world dying. But we forgive him, even though of this rampant, out of control drug abuse and this personal life that just seems chaotic because he has so much money.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, look, it's well known that he takes drugs. I mean, there's not anyone that you people come up to me and tell me about a party in Los Angeles. Whether it's Los Angeles, it's just this is 100% accurate reporting by the New York Times. Like you said, a lot of people can be functional and do it at the same time. But there are so many warning signs here. But one of the ones that troubled me, there was a line deep in the story where it's like he was given one of the things that the Trump people rail against is that people who are getting Medicaid have to have drug testing or this, and that they have all these rules for people. He was warned in advance. That to me jumped out when the drug tests were coming. That was like, are you kidding me? Like he doesn't have to follow the same rules and he gets warned. Who was warning him in advance? I was like, this is a whole story by itself. Who is warning him in advance? It was a single line in the piece. And I was like, of course he was warned in advance so that he could get clean or however he handles that. And that to me was disturbing. It just sort of was like watching in real time someone who is headed to a very bad place. I've always thought that. And at the same time hurting people as he hurdles through this very strange life of his and without a caring. So give me your take on Doge. Cause I think it's. It was. It's been incredibly damaging. I don't think there's been good things about it at all. In fact, it's sullied the idea of government efficiency in many ways.

[Scott Galloway]

I think in some ways it's. It's essentially the government's come out with a much cleaner bill of health around this bullshit notion of voice fraud and abuse. They just weren't able to find it as easily as they'd hoped.

[Kara Swisher]

Or they're just bad.

[Scott Galloway]

Some people, some people are reporting that it's actually the real losses, the effect of, or I'm sorry, the effective savings are like 7 to 9 billion, which isn't even the, the amount of the subsidies. I mean, I always come back to this statement, look what money's done to us Care. If you had a sibling, if you had a brother who was exceptionally talented, right? And say he was worth. He was just very good at business, and say he was worth 400 million, which means he's remarkably successful. But it was clear he was radically addicted to ketamine. At a parent teachers conference, he was giving Nazi salutes, He was fathering multiple children with multiple women who were all suing him, or many of them were suing him for sole custody of that child because he hadn't seen that child. He had declared war on one of the children publicly. And he was clearly like. And then he shows up with a black eye. I mean, wouldn't you get anyone who cares about this guy to do an intervention?

[Kara Swisher]

100%.

[Scott Galloway]

But here's the thing.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think his kid hit him. I don't think his kid hit him.

[Scott Galloway]

But here's the thing. If you're worth 400 billion, not 400 million, the world admires you and think it's not drug abuse. It's, you're provocative and you're authentic and you're different. I just come back to the same place. The idolatry of money that we have decided that money somehow conflates with character and leadership. If he was worth $400 million, no one would put up with this shit. They'd be like, Jesus Christ, this guy, get some help, is an addict. We're not listening to this guy around. An accounting firm, a mid level accounting firm wouldn't let him be a partner in their firm if they saw evidence of this.

[Kara Swisher]

Money takes care of a lot of things. What's interesting is influence over Trump may be fading. Trump is sort of not a thrill with people with substance abuse problems. He was cruel to his own brother. It may be fading more quickly than expected. The White House has withdrawn the nomination of Elon's billionaire pal Jared Isaacman to lead NASA just days before the expected Senate confirmation. Trump announced the decision Saturday night, citing a thorough review of prior associations. As if they didn't know he gave to Democrats. Apparently, Isaacman had donated to both Republicans and Democrats, which is totally normal to do. If you're a business person, that's what you do. But according to the New York Times, Trump was aware that Isaacman had made those donations before nominating them. He's just using it. The pulling back is a setback for Musk because This was his pal. Having Isaacman, who's flown two private missions with SpaceX at the helm of NASA, would likely been a major asset in securing contracts and missions. What did you think of this? This was really interesting. And they're sort of purging all the Musk people, it looks like, in terms of Parks, I think if he hands, it may be a pressure to hand over that $100 million check he promised. Maybe, I don't know, maybe he's just flexing his muscles, but it seems like a direct hit at Elon to do this right. And that whole Oval Office thing has such a performative quality. The key was. So this is what I became actual felt sorry for Musk is Trump handed him a shitty little key to the White House. And I thought, oh, my God, that is so awkward and embarrassing. Like, here, thank you for your work. Here's a key in a box. In a cheap box with a shitty key. That to me was like, ouch. But what do you think about the political power here?

[Scott Galloway]

The President has incredible political instincts. He sees things that other people don't see and goes places no one else would go. And it ends up not only being less damaging than we thought, but we hate to admit it, that even despite what the media's reaction to it, it appears to sometimes resonate with the larger population. And I think he's decided that the half life of Musk's usefulness to him is over. And he absolutely doesn't want to piss him off. He's got an incredibly powerful platform. He would still. He does not want him spending a lot of money. I mean, the thing about Musk and drug addicts in general is they generally aren't that reliable or consistent. And so I think, I think Trump is a bit afraid of Musk and goes, this guy could turn on me. So I think he's trying to thread this needle of getting him out of the White House. Supposedly him and Bessant basically almost came to blows and it was creating real chaos in the West Wing. So he wants to get him out, move him aside, and at the same time stay on good terms with him. It's like this is essentially what every manager's goal is. What Trump is trying to do is what every good manager's goal is. And that is the following. And this is my approach to firing. And that is you will constantly. Managers, whenever I ask about someone that we're worried about, people will constantly make excuses for them, oh, we're reassigned, we're doing this, we're redefining the job role. And I'm like, and this is going to sound terrible, I'm like, fire them. I've found nine times out of 10 when someone's not working the people making excuses and recasting that it's the organization's fault. I'm like, okay, the organization's not changing. And the sooner we can move, the more generous we can move be. I think you are rapacious and capitalist when it comes to these decisions, but then you're as generous as possible. You sit them down and you say, listen, it's not working here. We can go into why, but what we're going to do is we're going to let you stay as long as you need to so you don't lose your health insurance. You don't have to worry about money in the short term. We're going to help you find another job. And I think that's the objective here. I think he is trying to.

[Kara Swisher]

Why do Isaacman. Why do that? The same weekend it was really interesting. I mean, I guess the vote was.

[Scott Galloway]

Coming up, but still, I think something came out. Wasn't there something about his past? I think they basically said, this is not the guy or there's someone who knows there's probably another donor who's given more money or something. Who knows.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but why do that? Why such a public in the place that Elon loves? I mean, I just felt it was a weird.

[Scott Galloway]

You felt it was a shot across the bow. It was an affront to love.

[Kara Swisher]

It did. I was like, why bother? Like, because you could still control NASA contracts without with him there. Right. If they really didn't want Elon to get special favors. But they'd have to watch it, I guess. I don't know. It was interesting. I think he'd probably be going away for a little while now and maybe getting that much the help he desperately needs, obviously. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back, Trump goes back to the taco playbook with his latest tariffs.

[Unknown]

It's been reported that one in four people experience sensory sensitivities, making everyday experiences like a trip to the dentist especially difficult. In fact, 26% of sensory sensitive individuals avoid dental visits entirely. In Sensory Overload, a new documentary produced as part of Sensodyne's Sensory Inclusion Initiative, we follow individuals navigating a world not built for them, where bright lights, loud sounds and unexpected touches can turn routine moments into overwhelming challenges. Burnett Grant, for example, has spent their life masking discomfort in workplaces that don't accommodate neurodivergence. I've only had two full time jobs where I felt safe. They share this is why they're advocating for change through deeply personal stories like Burnett's Sensory Overload highlights the urgent need for spaces, dental offices and beyond that. Embrace sensory sensory inclusion because true inclusion requires action with environments where everyone feels safe. Watch Sensory Overload now streaming on Hulu.

[Scott Galloway]

In business, they say you can have better, cheaper or faster. But you only get to pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time? That's exactly what some of the world's most innovative brands and AI tech companies have since they upgraded to the next next generation of the cloud. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster? OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second cheaper. OCI costs up to to 50% less for compute, 70% less for storage and 80% less for networking better. In test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all your biggest workloads right now with zero commitment. Try OCI for free. Head to oracle.com Vox that's oracle.com for.

[Unknown]

The last 35 years, the electronic Frontier foundation has been fighting to make sure that when you go online, your rights come with you. And on their podcast how to Fix the Internet available now, they want to let you know all about what happens if they ultimately win that fight. Today, the battle for digital rights is bigger and more urgent than ever and EFF is member support. That means the more members they have, the stronger they can fight in statehouses, courthouses and on the streets. Visit eff.org podcast to listen to how to Fix the Internet and join eff.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, we're back. President Trump is doubling tariffs on steel and aluminum from 25% to 50%, moves says will boost U.S. manufacturing. The EU is already saying they're prepared to retaliate is not too happy either. The timing of this tariff announcement coincides with what Trump is calling a blockbuster agreement between U.S. steel and Japan's Nippon Steel. Details of the deal are somewhat murky though. Trump is claiming that US steel will remain controlled by the US. Senator David McCormick also said the US government will get a golden share in this deal, giving the administration U.S. board member approval along other key decisions. This has been rattling about for a while. I think it has almost nothing to do with this. And while Trump has been facing legal roadblocks in his terrorists commercial, Secretary Howard Luton explained on Fox over the weekend that tariffs are here to stay. They've been signaling that to all the reporters. Just so you know, rest assured, tariffs.

[Scott Galloway]

Are not going away. He has so many other authorities that.

Even in the weird and unusual circumstance.

Where this was taken away, we just.

[Kara Swisher]

Bring on another or another or another.

[Scott Galloway]

Congress has given this authority to the president and he's going to use, use it.

[Kara Swisher]

So he's talking about the legal pushback on legal stuff that he couldn't do. Some terrorists, there's certain ways he couldn't get around it and this and that. But he really is just doubling down on these tariffs. And it's fine for the US Steel thing. They get a golden share. Sure. Why not talk a little bit about this and then we'll talk a little about China. He's now again accusing Beijing of totally violating the trade agreement that paused retaliatory tariffs. It looks like, like he's ginning things up and he's done with being Mr. Nice Guy there. Talk first about the steal and then we'll get to China.

[Scott Galloway]

I think a lot of people have heard of sort of the taco trade, but they don't really understand it.

[Kara Swisher]

Trump always chickens out for people to get that.

[Scott Galloway]

But what it actually means is the following, is that the stock market will move. So he announces tariffs on Apple products and Apple goes down 3 to 5%. It takes a little bit of a hit, he announces is huge. Huge tariffs on China, 135%. And shipping companies that are dependent upon Chinese exports into the port of Long beach, they lose 30 or 40% of their value overnight. EU tariffs, EU stock market announcement, EU stock market declines. The incredibly consistent, massively profitable trade has been to assume that this is all bluster and these tariffs will not hold and the companies that took an initial dive will recover. And it has been one of the most consistent, profitable trades that Trump always chickens out that his threats are bluster and that he's bluffing. And the companies that take a short term hit, you go long those companies and you make a shit ton of money. He has announced or reduced tariffs 50 times. And so far, as far as I can tell, we're going to get a reduction in the price of Aston Martin engines from Britain. I mean, there's been absolutely almost no meaningful deal struck here. Now, my belief is it's the following. I used to think that he was an idiot in terms of basic understanding of economics and was hoping through bluster and by saber rattling to bring different economies to the table, thinking that that was going to benefit Americans. I no longer believe that. I believe he is purposely creating massive volatility such that him and his insiders can make billions of dollars in market manipulation and insider trading trading and that in a year the tariffs are going to look remarkably similar to the way they did before the Trump administration. When Attorney General Bondi is trading and selling Trump media shares, the morning he announces these incredible tariffs taking the markets down, it means that all rules and fear around insider trading criminality have gone away. And I think you are seeing that he has basically said, all right, right. Saying to his local cronies, his PE and hedge fund guys who tuck him in at night, I'm thinking about massively increasing steel tariffs tomorrow, which by the way took Cleveland Cliffs New core steel dynamics up 2711 and 5.9% because essentially local domestic steel manufacturers are going to get to charge unearned prices because there's such massive of tariffs on steel coming in. What does that mean? That means the prices of homes and cars are going to go up. Now if you believe the taco trade, what you would do is you would now go short those companies believing he's not going to be able to implement those tariffs against steel manufacturers. So I'm now beginning to believe that given that the courts or the. I forget what it's called. The IEEPA is basically saying this is not a wartime. You do not have license to impose these terrorists tariffs. They can only be done in exceptional measures during times of terrorism or cyber attacks. I think George W. Bush invoked them during 9 11. They said this does not meet that test for what you are trying to do. Basically like an exceptional wartime act. The trade would be to go the other way. But I'm now of the mind of these people are not dumb. What they're doing is creating massive volatility that them and their cronies and their loyalists are making tens of billions of dollars off. It's all, all market manipulation and insider trading.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think you've been talking about this for a couple of weeks now. One of the things that he's really focusing on, as I said, was China. He didn't give specifics about the problems with China that they were violating these things. But U.S. trade Rep. Jamison Greer said China has been slow rolling compliance, particularly on exports of rare earth materials, which we need desperately. China is sitting back accusing the US of undermining the recent agreement with the so called discriminatory measures like AI chip export controls. And also criticizing the plan to revoke student visas which Trump has been doing. Specifically targeting Chinese students in America, which there are many. Despite all the tough talk from both sides, Trump says he's sure he'll chat with Chinese President Xi to work things out. I mean one of the things is it even more taco behavior here? Because this is the key relationship. Presumably. But the Wall Street Journal also had a piece that was really interesting about all these attempts to hobble China particularly when it comes to tech aren't working in a lot of ways are backfiring with scarcity brings innovation and many people feel and that China's doing just fine in these agreements. So is China different from your perspective what he's doing here?

[Scott Galloway]

There's the tariffs and then there's the war on these elite institutions. And I think the tariffs will do structural damage. And that is everyone's trying to reroute their supply chain around America. They're like we can't handle this toxic uncertainty, certainty, the fear around this nonsense with Harvard. By the way, both Xi Jinping and his rival who disagreed on a lot, both had one thing in common. They sent their kids to Harvard. And what's just so insane and so cynical about this move is they're doing it under the banner of anti Semitism. But the funding they're trying to cut is around medical research or scientific research of which we get huge dividends and which Harvard is outstanding at. Now having said that, that I do believe personally, I apologize. I'm sorry you asked about China. I think that he is looking for some sort of big beautiful deal and that she is going to call his bluff. I think they have totally overplayed their hand. And the kid or the person torn between two lovers right now is Tim Cook. And that is Tim has nowhere to go. Tim, it would be easier. It was easier to get to splitting the axis atom during World War II than it would be for us to return all manufacturing of the iPhone to the US right now it's just an impossibility. And China is restricting the granting of visas to Chinese people in China who Apple is trying to transition to India such that they can assemble one screw and say made in India. It's all tariff gaming right now, people. I mean it's just so the Tim Cook is literally caught between these two people. And quite frankly, the more consistent player right now and the easier player to deal with is Xi. He doesn't know what Trump's going to do. But if you look at what's happened to Apple stock. People sort of don't believe it's really going to affect them. They sort of believe that that supply chain that has absorbed 25 million people and $50 billion a year in five super centers around China, that it's going to survive, that Trump will eventually back down or go away.

[Kara Swisher]

Or go away. That's.

[Scott Galloway]

Or forget about it or move on to something else.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Yeah. I feel like China has got his number more than anybody else in terms of manipulating him. I mean, obviously, I think Putin does. He's so easily manipulated because he's so obvious. And the idea that he's playing 3D chess is just ridiculous. I think we're going to, as you said, we're going to end up in exactly the same place and we are not going to realize the threat that China does. Our best move is to get along with China. Right, in terms of protecting ourselves as a country and to figure out ways that we can protect ourselves from all kinds of things that they could do. But this way, they just. To me, they are in the pole position with him. And you're right, everyone's just waiting for him to stop talking and move on. And his mouthpiece, Howard Lutnick, seems like an idiot. No one believes them because they're so capricious. No one believes anything they do well.

[Scott Galloway]

But what you see is every time they make an annuity announcement about a tariff, there's even less volatility. The market is absorbing these threats and saying they're not credible.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's making himself less credible. That's absolutely what's happening here. He's not a very good negotiator, as it turns out, which you would have known if you followed his business dealings over the many decades. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Unknown]

Whether you're a startup founder navigating your first audit or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta to build trust by automating compliance for in demand frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, GDP, PR and more. And with automation and AI throughout the platform, you can proactively manage vendor risk and complete security questionnaires up to five times faster. Getting valuable time back. Vanta not only saves you time, it can also save you Money. A new IDC white paper found that Vanta customers achieve $535,000 per year. In benefits and the platform pays for itself in just three months.

[Kara Swisher]

Months.

[Unknown]

For any business, establishing trust is essential. Vanta can help your business with exactly that. Go to vanta.comvox to meet with a Vanta expert about your business needs. That's vanta.com Vox.

[F]

How confident are you that you know where tariffs and trade policies are headed tomorrow, let alone next year year? Or that you know which part of your supply chain will be squeezed next? These days, it pays to expect the unexpected. NetSuite by Oracle is an AI powered business management suite that gives you visibility into every nook and cranny of your company. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one place, which means you can identify pain points quickly and adapt in real time. And with AI embedded throughout, you can automate a lot of everyday tasks, leaving you and your team more time to strategize about the big picture. Netsuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast. Those are just a few of the many reasons NetSuite is trusted by over 41,000 businesses. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download the free ebook Navigating Global Trade. Three insights for [e-mail] Vox that's netsuite.com Vox.

[Scott Galloway]

And we're back, folks. It looks like Jim from sales just got in from his client lunch and he's got receipts.

His next meeting is in two minutes. The team is asking, can he get.

Through his expenses in that time?

[Kara Swisher]

He's going for it. Is that his phone? He's snapping a pic.

[Scott Galloway]

He's texting rams.

Jim is fast, but this is unheard of.

[Kara Swisher]

That's it. He's done it. It's unbelievable. On ramp, expenses are faster than ever.

[F]

Just submit them with a text. Switch your business to ramp.com.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Why don't you go first?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, my fail. Two images were summarized here. My fail was seeing kids, teenage boy in zip ties detained by ice. It's just like, do you realize how much damage that does to America? The cocktail, the peanut butter and chocolate that has created the strongest nation in history. And most people don't know. Most people around the world don't know. Americans don't come to America, but they're willing to work with us. They think twice before they try to damage us or steal from us because they know our memory is long and our reach is far. And also that coupled with a general sense that at the end of the day, they're the good guys. And when an image is shot around the world of our own security agencies putting children in zip ties, it just does so much damage to our reputation as the good guys. Basically, we're no longer the good guys. And as evidenced by the scariest piece of data I've seen this year, other than 51% of men 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person. The second scariest piece of data data is that now globally, more people think China's a force of good in the world than the US and that makes our deep pools of capital more shallow. People don't want to invest in us. People are less likely to inform when they think there's a terrorist cell trying to infiltrate our borders. It makes their scientists less likely to come here. Makes them much less likely to want to buy our products over Chinese products. That is my fail. That image. And I won't go into the semantics of it. I don't know the specifics, but. But there's just some basics here. Okay? Memo, memo 2. All ICE employees never ever have a minor in zip ties or in handcuffs ever, ever. If they pose a risk to you, you have to incur that risk. If they become violent, fine. But we never put minors in zip ties or any other stuff. Sort of restraining advice. Anyways, that's my loss. And I was equally excited by the image and the video of 40 strategic bombers, different Russian airfields being blown up. I mean, you cannot imagine. This is arguably the most precise, genius and well thought out and bold military operation since the IDF's operation against Hezbollah and the Pedro operation. They managed to smuggle in trucks to different areas 1000 miles inside Russian territory, figure out a way at the exact right moment with soft assets on the ground, that is Ukrainian spies on the ground to geolocate these strategic bombers. And then these trucks, their roofs would collapse or retract and they would launch these, these drones. And these drones took out 40 long term strategic bombers precisely that have been bombing Ukrainian cities. And by the time I knew what was going on, the agents and the launch vehicles and the trucks had returned to safety or been abandoned. This was 18 months in the planning. It was incredibly strategic. Brave. I mean this. Nothing creates momentum and respect like this type of bravery and this type of thoughtful action. I was so excited to see this. I think it puts new wind in the sails and morale of not only people within Ukraine fighting this fight on behalf of all of us, but it also makes it more. We're more inclined in the west to support Ukraine because we see when we put our dollars and our support to work, these people are not fucking around. They are very good at what they do. This will go down in history as one the great brave military operations. And you're going to see in about 18 months two or three different dramas on Netflix and on Hulu about this operation. Anyways, the Ukrainian special operation to take out 40 long range strategic bombers who were shelling and bombing Ukrainian cities.

[Kara Swisher]

That's my win, I got to say, a remarkable country. The minute this is over, that is going to be the most important technological country. I think we talk about certain countries like Israel and others. This it already was. But going forward, once they get out of this mess, the rebuilding of Ukraine should be really interesting, especially for technology. I think it's going to be one of those great countries and rebound in 10 years will be sort of like what? Like that kind of thing. I just feel like Ukraine is so impressive in terms of pushing people out of their country, trying to. As difficult as it is. You're right. I was sort of gobsmacked that they were able to do that. And relatively easily, it looks like. Which tells you everything you need to know about Putin's Russia. That's a good one. My fail continues to be is this idea that the damage Elon Musk has caused through Doge and the damage of the coarsening really has to stop. I think it's really the fact that everyone was sitting around acting like this guy was great at the Oval Office when he clearly is in distress and listen, I have no sympathy for anyone, but it's sad to look at. It's sad to watch someone of so much possibility become such a small minded, angry victim. All the interviews were depressing. Every single interview was depressing. You know, the people wrote a lot about, you know, money doesn't buy happiness. And that seems to be the case here. But the fact that we excuse it and just don't call it out and say, listen and to be attacked. The New York Times, I thought, did a great job in that story and has kept at it. That's a hard story to say. Yes too, I suspect, because he could easily sue them or whatever else with a lot of nonsense, but it just makes you feel like. You feel like you know where this is all going. And it's sad that nobody will intervene or can intervene really in that regard. For Wynn, there's a new musical here in San Francisco. I'm hoping to see it this week called Co Founders that's described as Hamilton meets Silicon Valley. And Reid Hoffman is The backer and the show. I've been listening to the soundtrack. It's pretty. The show has a song that feels particularly appropriate. It's called Pivot, and it's not about us. Scott. Let's listen to a short bit of. It was a dating site with video.

[Unknown]

Twitter was a podcast called Odo.

[Kara Swisher]

Flickr was an early mmo, never ending game, way before the photos. The Pivot ain't folklore. So when you're thinking you can't score, make your way to the dance floor. You'll get a second chance, but you.

[Scott Galloway]

Might have to dance.

Turn your feet 90 degrees, get down and get up.

So bend those knees.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, We've been pivoting for. Isn't that Good? It's pretty good. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

It was good.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that should be our new.

[Scott Galloway]

So that's what Reid's been up to.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what Reed's been. He's like, trying not to get, like, attacked by Trump and Musk and doing that. I love that. Read off. And he's always. I was like, I wrote him. I'm like, what? What? What? And I was. It was like, good for you. Good for you. Read off and doing that. I kind of liked it. It's here in San Francisco until July. I'm excited to see it. I love the theater. It makes me happy whenever I go. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 855-51-Pivot and elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe. This week on on with Kara Swisher. I talked to editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeff Goldberg. Mr. Signalgate. Let's listen to a clip.

[Scott Galloway]

Deeply corrupt governments and societies work very well. And sometimes they bring themselves to a crisis point, at which point the people say, enough. And something good happens out of that. So, I mean, I think that's ultimately where we're heading. Unless. Unless the American people, who are supplied with cheap calories, abundant video entertainment, and actual drugs, just have given up on the idea of. Of standing up for traditional American principles. I mean, we have to consider that as long as you feed people enough food and give them enough diversion, I mean, it sounds very Roman. Cause it is.

[Kara Swisher]

Bread and circuses.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, bread and circuses. Maybe it won't.

[Kara Swisher]

So, anyway, it was a great interview. He's really terrific. What a thoughtful person leading a very important publication right now. He's made it important through his leadership. Okay. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and make sure you like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Friday Scott Read us out Today's show.

[Scott Galloway]

Was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and Todd. Entering this episode, thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Silvero and Dan Shalon. The Shock Crowds Vox Media's Executive Producer Podcast. Make sure to follow a Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. K Sarah have a great rest of the week.

[Unknown]

Support for the show comes from Groons.

[Kara Swisher]

If you're looking for a new tasty.

[Unknown]

Nutrition solution, then look no further than Groons. It's a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into eight daily gummies. Groons is not a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of the those things and then some and it tastes great.

[Kara Swisher]

In each daily pack you get 20.

[Unknown]

Vitamins and minerals and more than 60 whole food ingredients. Get up to 45% off when you go to Groons Co and use code Vox that's G R U N S.

[Kara Swisher]

Co using code Vox for 45% off.

[F]

What if the way you feel every day wasn't such a mystery? Well, it doesn't have to be. Oura Ring takes the guesswork out of the things that can help set you up for a long, healthy future. Oura gives you personalized updates about your sleep, stress, activity, recovery and more, all from this sleek little smart ring. But OURA doesn't stop there. They also give you long term trends and feedback on the stats that matter for improving your health and longevity. Getting old has never looked so good. Now give Oura the finger. Learn [e-mail].

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes.

[F]

From Pure Leaf Iced Tea. When you find yourself in the afternoon.

[Kara Swisher]

Slump, you need the right thing to make you bounce back.

[F]

You need Pure Leaf Iced Tea. It's real brewed tea made in a variety of bold flavors with just the.

[Kara Swisher]

Right amount of naturally occurring caffeine.

[F]

You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so.

[Kara Swisher]

You can be ready to take on what's next.

[F]

The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a Pure Leaf Iced Tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a Pure Leaf.