Elon's OpenAI Bid, Trump's Judicial Strategy, and DOGE's Shock and Awe

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary: "Elon's OpenAI Bid, Trump's Judicial Strategy, and DOGE's Shock and Awe"

Release Date: February 11, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Produced by: New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction and Host Banter

The episode kicks off with the hosts, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, engaging in their characteristic banter, highlighting their unfiltered and candid approach to discussing tech, business, and politics. They set the stage for a deep dive into the tumultuous relationships between major tech figures and political strategies affecting the industry.

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2. Elon Musk’s OpenAI Bid

Discussion Points:

• Elon Musk, known for his disruptive ventures, has submitted a staggering $97 billion bid to acquire OpenAI, the nonprofit organization he co-founded.
• Originally established to ensure AI development remained safe and open, OpenAI has transitioned towards a profitable model, leading to governance complexities.

Notable Quotes:

• Elon Musk on OpenAI: "It's time for OpenAI to return to open source, Safety, focused force for good." (Timestamp: 24:02)
• Scott Galloway: "What they've done is started out as a nonprofit but quickly pivoted to a two-class shareholder company, creating governance conflicts that Musk is now attempting to exploit." (Timestamp: 15:58)

Insights:

• Galloway posits that Musk’s move is less about altruism and more a strategic attempt to control OpenAI by leveraging the governance structure of its nonprofit division.
• Swisher concurs, emphasizing that Musk's actions are driven by profit motives rather than genuine concern for AI safety.

Conclusions:

• The bid reflects a broader trend of wealthy individuals trying to consolidate power in critical tech sectors.
• Musk’s interference may disrupt OpenAI’s trajectory, potentially impacting AI development norms and safety protocols.

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3. Trump's Judicial Strategy

Discussion Points:

• Former President Donald Trump is actively targeting federal judges who rule against his executive actions.
• Proposals include impeaching judges and annually firing the worst 1% of appointed judges to undermine the judiciary's authority.

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher: "Elon called for the impeachment of a judge who ruled against Doge. He's also proposing that the worst 1% of appointed judges be fired every year." (Timestamp: 58:10)
• Scott Galloway: "This is leading us towards a paternalistic government structure more akin to dictatorships than democracies." (Timestamp: 60:57)

Insights:

• The hosts discuss the erosion of judicial independence, comparing Trump’s actions to authoritarian tactics.
• Galloway warns of a constitutional crisis, highlighting the fragility of American institutions when power is centralized and checks and balances are weakened.

Conclusions:

• The aggressive judicial strategies threaten the foundational principles of democracy and the rule of law.
• There is growing concern about the long-term implications for American governance and institutional stability.

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4. DOGE’s Shock and Awe

Discussion Points:

• DOGE, an AI-driven entity, is making significant inroads into government agencies, purportedly to streamline operations and identify inefficiencies.
• Federal judges have temporarily blocked DOGE’s access to certain government payment systems, citing risks of irreparable harm.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway: "If a group of talented engineers can cut off payments to veterans and children in low-income areas, we're essentially fighting a losing battle." (Timestamp: 45:05)
• Kara Swisher: "DOGE's actions are performative, aiming to gain access to sensitive data without genuine intent to improve system efficiency." (Timestamp: 44:00)

Insights:

• The interference by DOGE is seen as part of a broader strategy to intimidate and disrupt governmental operations.
• Swisher and Galloway express skepticism about DOGE’s motives, suggesting that their actions may be more about control than improvement.

Conclusions:

• DOGE's maneuvers represent a new form of technological interference in government, raising concerns about data security and the integrity of public services.
• The temporary legal blocks indicate early resistance from authorities, but the long-term battle remains uncertain.

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5. Super Bowl Commentary

Discussion Points:

• The hosts briefly touch upon the Super Bowl, highlighting its commercial aspects and political undertones.
• They critique the star-studded ads and the performative nature of the event, noting figures like Brad Pitt and Kendrick Lamar.

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher: "Kendrick Lamar ruled the fricking school with his performance, beautifully sending a message to the Trump administration." (Timestamp: 27:03)
• Scott Galloway: "Milk and oatmeal chocolate chip cookies were the culinary highlights of my Super Bowl experience." (Timestamp: 27:37)

Insights:

• The Super Bowl serves as a microcosm of broader societal trends, blending entertainment with subtle political messaging.
• There’s a juxtaposition between high-profile advertisements and the underlying political tensions, particularly related to tech and governance.

Conclusions:

• While not a central theme, the Super Bowl discussion underscores the intersection of culture, politics, and commerce in major public events.

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6. Amazon’s Earnings Report

Discussion Points:

• Amazon's recent earnings report shows better-than-expected revenue growth of 10% and nearly doubled net income due to cost-cutting measures.
• However, investors are concerned about slowing growth, especially in Amazon Web Services (AWS), which missed estimates by $100 million.

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher: "Amazon is now essentially a cloud company with a retail unit, and the AWS miss has rattled investors because of its critical role in profitability." (Timestamp: 29:13)
• Scott Galloway: "Amazon's dual-class structure means the cloud division’s performance directly affects the entire company's valuation, causing investor anxiety." (Timestamp: 30:15)

Insights:

• The reliance on AWS for profitability makes Amazon vulnerable to growth fluctuations in the cloud sector.
• Galloway criticizes the dual-class structure, suggesting that breaking up mega-corporations like Amazon could enhance shareholder value and innovation.

Conclusions:

• Amazon remains a powerhouse, but its future growth may hinge on AWS’s performance and potential structural changes to address investor concerns.
• The discussion highlights broader issues of corporate governance and market expectations for tech giants.

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7. Tariffs and Political Maneuvers

Discussion Points:

• Trump is reinstating and expanding tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, including allies like Canada and Mexico.
• The move is seen as a blunt instrument that disrupts trade relationships without addressing underlying economic issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher: "Trump now plans to impose 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from all countries, including our allies, which economists unanimously view as a poor strategy." (Timestamp: 38:08)
• Scott Galloway: "These tariffs are more about political posturing than effective economic policy, creating uncertainty that upsets markets." (Timestamp: 39:20)

Insights:

• The tariffs are criticized for their inefficiency and potential to harm both domestic and international economic relations.
• Economists and the hosts agree that more targeted measures, like production subsidies, would be more beneficial than broad tariffs.

Conclusions:

• Trump’s tariff strategy appears to be more about exerting pressure and gaining attention rather than fostering genuine economic growth.
• The episode underscores the tension between political rhetoric and economically sound policies.

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8. Targets on Judiciary and Legal Challenges

Discussion Points:

• Elon Musk is not only attacking OpenAI but also extending his strategies to influence judicial decisions and executive actions.
• The hosts discuss the broader implications of tech moguls wielding unprecedented influence over legal and governmental institutions.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway: "This is like the ultimate vendor's dream—unlimited funds to direct law firms and bankers to disrupt opponents like Sam Altman." (Timestamp: 25:48)
• Kara Swisher: "Attacking the judiciary undermines the institutions that uphold democratic norms, putting us on shaky ground." (Timestamp: 67:53)

Insights:

• The influence of wealthy individuals like Musk poses a threat to the independence of judiciary systems and the balance of power within government.
• There's a growing concern about the centralization of power and the potential erosion of democratic principles.

Conclusions:

• The episode highlights the critical need to safeguard institutional integrity against the manipulative strategies of powerful individuals.
• Ensuring judicial independence is paramount to maintaining democratic stability and preventing authoritarian shifts.

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9. Institutional Disruption and Fragility of U.S. Systems

Discussion Points:

• The hosts delve into the fragility of American institutions, emphasizing how recent disruptions could lead to long-term instability.
• They compare the current state to historical events, warning of potential economic and social repercussions.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway: "Our system is more fragile than most people appreciate, and the ongoing attacks on institutions are setting us on a path towards potential collapse." (Timestamp: 61:18)
• Kara Swisher: "Breaking down institutional structures without a clear plan for rebuilding is like playing with fire—disastrous for the economy and society." (Timestamp: 62:00)

Insights:

• The erosion of institutional trust and respect paves the way for authoritarianism and economic uncertainty.
• The interconnectedness of various sectors means that disruption in one area can have cascading effects across the entire system.

Conclusions:

• Preserving and reinforcing institutional frameworks is essential to prevent societal and economic decay.
• The episode serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power and the importance of maintaining robust, independent institutions.

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10. Wins and Fails Segment

Discussion Points:

• Wins:

  • Wired’s Coverage on Elon and DOGE: Swisher praises Wired for its comprehensive and unbiased reporting on Elon Musk and DOGE, noting increased subscriptions and quality journalism.
    • "Wired has become essential reading with their steady and fair reporting." (Timestamp: 70:03)
  • Anne Applebaum’s Insights: Galloway lauds historian and staff writer Anne Applebaum for her thoughtful analysis of historical and current events.
    • "Anne Applebaum has a very measured and thoughtful way of looking at history and relating it to what's going on now." (Timestamp: 71:22)

• Fails:

  • Super Bowl Advertising Critique: Both hosts express disdain for certain Super Bowl ads, particularly criticizing the overemphasis on celebrity appearances over meaningful content.
    • "The ads were star-studded but lacked substance, with Brad Pitt’s inclusion being particularly 'a little woke'." (Timestamp: 27:03)

Conclusions:

• The "Wins and Fails" segment offers a lighter take amidst heavy discussions, celebrating quality journalism and insightful historical analysis while critiquing superficial entertainment choices.

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11. Closing Remarks

Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway conclude the episode by reiterating the importance of scrutinizing powerful individuals and institutions. They emphasize the need for balance between technological advancement and maintaining democratic principles. The hosts encourage listeners to stay informed and critical of the forces shaping the future of tech, business, and politics.

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Key Takeaways:

• Elon Musk’s Strategic Moves: Musk’s aggressive bid for OpenAI exemplifies the increasing power of tech moguls in reshaping critical industries, raising concerns about governance and ethical AI development.

• Political Strategies Undermining Democracy: Trump's attempts to control the judiciary highlight the vulnerability of democratic institutions when faced with concentrated power and partisan agendas.

• Doge’s Government Interference: DOGE’s interference with government agencies underscores the potential for technology to disrupt public services and the importance of safeguarding data integrity.

• Institutional Fragility: The discussions reveal a growing fragility within American institutions, emphasizing the need for robust checks and balances to prevent authoritarian drift.

• Economic Implications of Tariffs and Corporate Governance: The critique of Trump’s tariffs and Amazon’s earnings report reflects broader concerns about economic policies driven by political motives and corporate governance structures that may hinder innovation and growth.

Listen to the full episode of Pivot for an in-depth exploration of these topics and more insights from Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's a quick jaunt or long journey, Chevrolet's all electric Equinox EV has you covered as America's most affordable over 315 mile range EV. And starting at around $34,995, you can hit the road and still afford snacks. Learn [e-mail] Electric Equinox EV based on a comparison of MSRP of the 2025 Chevrolet Equinox EV LT of competing EVs EPA estimated 319 miles on a full charge with front wheel drive. Actual range may vary based on several factors including temperature, terrain, battery, age and condition, loading, and how you use and maintain your vehicle. The manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price. Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still. This isn't your grandpa's finance podcast.

[Scott Galloway]

It's Vivian to your rich BFF and host of the Net Worth and Chill podcast. This is money talk that's actually fun, actually relatable, and will actually make you money. I'm breaking down investments, side hustles and wealth strategies.

[Kara Swisher]

No boring spreadsheets, just real talk that'll.

[Scott Galloway]

Have you leveling up your financial game with amazing guests like Glenda Baker. There's never been any house that I've sold in the last 32 years that's not worth more today than it was the day that I sold it. This is a money podcast that you'll actually want to listen to. Follow Net Worth and Chill.

[Kara Swisher]

Wherever you listen to podcasts, your bank.

[Scott Galloway]

Account will thank you later.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh my God. I can't go to a sex movie with you. I just. That just flashed through my brain.

[Scott Galloway]

That wasn't on my bingo card either. So, yeah, that's. That's not going to happen.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I am the very cruel Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm the deceitful Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, and we're both mean, right? We're both mean.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I know. We're awful.

[Kara Swisher]

That one's accurate, don't you think?

[Scott Galloway]

The revolution begins with two podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. So I don't know about you, you know, but that was kind of something for Elon to attack us on the Twitter where neither of us are over there, so we had to be told by people. We're like, what hu.

[Scott Galloway]

What? What's that? Nice. Although I'M glad I didn't have to read. I guess there's 11 or 12,000 comments. The same thing happens whenever this happens. Well, my guess is it wasn't talking about your grayed hair and my broad shoulders, but whenever you're on tweets about me, the same thing happens. My phone starts blowing up. I'm like, are you all right? And I'm like, oh, shit, did something bad happen? And, like, he's. And then someone sent me a screenshot, and I'm like, I don't. The thing about being off of Twitter is you realize how small it is. It's like, no, my life is absolutely no different in the. The thing that immediately came to mind is one of my favorite quotes of fdr, is that I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. It's so weird.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me just add, though, these were my comments.

[Kara Swisher]

They were.

[Scott Galloway]

And he goes after you, of course. It's like, okay, I'm always taking a.

[Kara Swisher]

Bullet for you, Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

I said these things. Elon, not Kara. And he's acting like these individuals. First off, can the guy not afford autocorrect? It's like. It's like his team or grammar Pick a struggle. And the notion that there's somehow these. He portrayed this team as being in Guantanamo Bay, when the reality is they're on a Discord server figuring out if their logo or their meme should have sunglasses. I mean, just to portray these kids as victims is just kind of hilarious. But I did feel bad that he went after you and not just me, of course.

[Kara Swisher]

I am pretty obnoxious about him all over the place. So it probably, like, glommed up into one thing.

[Scott Galloway]

You didn't say anything.

[Kara Swisher]

I said, I know, but in general on cnn, where I call him a toddler, an adult toddler on any day of the week and twice on Sunday or anything, just us threatening him. But here's the deal. First of all, all you said, and I tend to agree with, is, you know, these. From the reporting, the exceptional reporting by Wired, for example, these guys, a couple of them sound like a prick, right? Like, and we said it. These people sound like pricks. They're doing something that's probably fun for them. They get to work for Elon Musk. They get to, like, raid the government or everything else. We just. We're like, this is not the way we should make sausage in our country. It's really gross how they're doing it this way, and they need to do it in a legal way. That's all we said. And he tries to insinuate that we're threatening them. Because as I say, everything, every accusation is a confession by these fellas. And let me just read the thing for people to understand. He reposted a video of us talking about DOGE employees in our last episode. Swisher and Galloway are threatening talented young software engineers who gave up high compensation for death threats in order to help American people. Shame on Swisher and Galloway. Cruel, mean and deceitful human beings that they are. First of all, they're gonna make high compensation later pokes by doing this. This ups the compensation level for them. Cause they become among tech people whatever. Cause they work for Elon, depending how it turns out. Also, they didn't trade it for death threats like they traded it cause this is what they want to do. And they were enthusiastically doing it. And we don't have to like them. And just by not liking them, we're not threatening them. So that's fucking nonsense. And either you didn't threaten them in any way. And it's a larger part of a strategy of intimidating journalists. He's trying to shut us up and somehow link us if anything ever happened to them, to them, just because we don't like them.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, just to Steel man, it. He does have a point in the sense that, let's be clear. In my opinion, trespassing and illegal takeover of our government to hack the system such that veterans and kids and people benefiting from Head Start. This is on the President and Elon Musk. It's really not about these kids. It's really not about them. But what I would ask him is that he come after me when I say things like wow, Elon Musk appears to have made a hard reich in his politics. Or that the new model Tesla model SS is coming out. I say those things. You don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I know.

[Scott Galloway]

If he's going to of overreach, then come after me. Bitch. To go after the woman. It shows one of two things. Either you're weak or you have an incredible bias. Misogynist. If the man says something about you and you keep going after the woman who's near him, that just implies incredible weakness on your part.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I get it. I understand. I do attack him pretty much.

[Scott Galloway]

And I realize you don't need protecting. I don't need protecting. I just found it. Like he puts your name first. Like you did that. I was me.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, he likes to do that, you know. But let me just say about the death threats, you know, when I got Death threats when he said my heart was seething with hate. Remember with Yoel Roth where he said Yoel was evil and I was. My heart was filled with seething hate. I got. Should he have not done that? I didn't like, bitch and moan about that. And I got a lot of really frightening stuff aimed at me when he does it every time. So you know what? Instead he bitches and moans about it. Well, I'm bitching and moaning now. Guess what? I got death threats. Guess what? I can handle. Just is, again, a larger strategy of intimidating journalists and other people who speak out and disagree with him. President Trump called for the Washington Post to fire columnist Eugene Robinson. Elon Musk called. Speaking of which, investigative reporter Katherine Long was writing about this stuff. Disgusting and cruel. You know, just, this is what these people do all the time. They do all kinds of intimidating and rude remarks. And that's to say nothing of his endless anti trans stuff, anti immigrant stuff, his tasteless stuff about gay people, his tasteless stuff about women, about anyone who opposes him. So this guy, you know, pot, kettle, Nice to meet you. Anyway, there you have it.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you know, look, we get it wrong sometimes, but just keep in mind both Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, we live with our children, and so we got that going for us. And we're not giving Nazi salutes.

[Kara Swisher]

That was your best one. You're such a great dad.

[Scott Galloway]

You're an amazing father. To the best of my knowledge, I have not hired video game players to pretend they're me such that I can go on podcasts and say I'm a world class video game player. I'm not creating fake accounts to call myself an amazing dad. I do a lot of virtue signaling around my fatherhood, but I haven't gone that far, you know? And so far, I am not addicted to ketamine. I have shown some discipline around that. I'm willing to try. Oh, I'm willing to try. No, I didn't. I didn't get there. I just went out and drank. Instead. I had something called. I had two mezcal margaritas and half an edible. And that worked for me. That all worked.

[Kara Swisher]

Jeff Swisher said he'd help you if you need help because he gives ketamine every day as a doctor. Not that he's going to. I gotta tell you this.

[Scott Galloway]

I had. I'm sorry, I keep bringing this back to me. I had lunch with Chris Anderson from ted.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And he sat down and it was so lovely. You know what he said to me? He looked at me. And he's like, me and Jacqueline, his wife, who's lovely. He's like, are you all right? I'm like, yeah, well, I mean, I'm no less fucked. I'm more fucked up than I usually am. People, after hearing that podcast are worried about me and taking me out to lunch and sitting me down. He goes, no, no, really? No, really, Scott, are you. Are you all right? And also, would you be willing to come back and do another talk?

[Kara Swisher]

Anyways, did he step down from ted?

[Scott Galloway]

He's like, he's basically. It's kind of a gangster move. I don't know if you've heard about this. He said, I'm giving Ted away. And of course he's going to give it away to some billionaire who put a bunch of money behind it, but he has basically decided to give Ted. He needs every Democrat over the age of 100, like, 40, 50% of them needs to take a note out of the Chris Anderson page book. He's a great fiduciary for organization. You think TED plays an important role. And he's like, it is time to bring someone more youthful and vigorous and some new ideas to this thing. And he's going to give it away. And he's doing this big competition to give Ted away. I think it's the right thing to do.

[Kara Swisher]

You know why? Because he's tired as fuck. I know where he sits. After leaving Cove, I was tired as fuck. I wanted out.

[Scott Galloway]

He's like, he's on the last helicopter out of the Saigon embassy.

[Kara Swisher]

He's like, so out. And I was like, oh, it's the legacy. La la la. You know what? I was tired of doing it. I was just fucking exhausted and I did a great job. But I feel his pain. So are you okay, Scott? Are you okay? Especially because Elon attacked you.

[Scott Galloway]

I answered him the same way I always answered that question. I hate my life less and less every day. Things are going pretty well.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But this notion that, like, I'm not. This shit used to bother me.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it did. It doesn't bother you anymore. It doesn't.

[Scott Galloway]

I feel like I'm turning into one of those villains that gets energy from attacks. I love that this guy hates me.

[Kara Swisher]

He punches you and then you get his energy. Like that kind of person.

[Scott Galloway]

Seriously, we're doing something right, Kara. We're doing something right.

[Kara Swisher]

It's true. He does call most people disgusting and disgusting. Cruel. Pedo. When he calls you a pedo, that's when you know he loves you.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, we're headed that way. I don't know. But you pointed it out.

[Kara Swisher]

You, not me.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, let's just get to the source here. It's just so clear. The guy wants to fuck me.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, that's what I said. Sexual tension is.

[Scott Galloway]

I get it. And he's rich, so there is a shot here. There is a shot here. He is very rich. I could maybe go there. Like three mezcal margaritas.

[Kara Swisher]

No way.

[Scott Galloway]

And 10 milligrams, then.

[Kara Swisher]

I have to ask.

[Scott Galloway]

At this point, Kara, I have an open mind.

[Kara Swisher]

I had this. I played this game with someone. I'm not going to tell you. I couldn't answer it, but, you know, fuck Mary. Kel.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Near her.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, I'm going to do this. You're going to answer right now.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg. Go.

[Scott Galloway]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Which one? Go ahead. We might have played this before, but.

[Scott Galloway]

I think, oh, I would definitely marry Bezos, because I'd like to roam around in a thong on one of his yachts. I think that would be a good look for me. I'd be willing to embarrass myself. They go to the best parties. I love the fashion. Oh, my God. The fashion I get to wear. I'm so down for a lot of cosmetic surgery. Oh, my God. I'm coming back as Lauren Sanchez in my next life.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Mrs. Bezos. Excellent. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

That's it.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Not kill. We won't use the word kill because it's not nice. Okay. Because we're not cruel and disgusting or whatever.

[Scott Galloway]

So that's Mary. So. Fuck, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Fuck.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, God. I want Zuck to put on one of those jiu jitsu outfits and start manhandling me a little bit. Ooh. And then a few things go the wrong place. Oh, yeah. Let's get ready to rumble. Oh, my God. And I'm not gonna say kill, because I don't even think it's funny to joke about violence. But, yes, I am Lawrence Sanchez, and I'm making sweet, sweet love to the Zuck, as always.

[Kara Swisher]

Everything goes back to Elon, who has continued to plague us. But he's now plaguing Sam Altman. A feud with this. With the CEO of OpenAI took a new turn today when a consortium of investors led by Elon is offering $97 billion to buy the nonprofit that controls OpenAI. The bid was submitted on Monday, according to the WAL. And in a quote, Elon Musk said, It's time for OpenAI to return to open source, Safety, focused force for good. It once was Obviously, for people that don't know, Elon and Sam and others created OpenAI together as a nonprofit to battle. And I did an interview with him at the time about this. Both of them to battle the bigger companies and the privatization of AI and so it was going to be a nonprofit that was going to focus on safety. At the time, Elon thought AI was going to kill all of us. He's changed his tune on that obviously over the years. And this is a really shocking news. What do you think, Scott? What's he up to? Because he's not busy with other things, for goodness sake.

[Scott Galloway]

I think this is a rich man's version of I'm invading Greenland. I think this is a distraction. So first off, I gotta be clear, I gotta do more research here. But essentially what they've done accidentally or unintentionally is by starting out as a nonprofit and then pretending that they would maintain some fidelity to the nonprofit. Once they smelled the hundreds of billions in potential shareholder value, they accidentally created a two class shareholder company. And that is they have essentially some shareholders, the nonprofit that have a lot of governance rights and the for profit group is raising money at a 300 or $350 billion valuation. And Musk has found a way to try and create a cudgel or according to him, essentially get control of, if you will, the voting shares by taking over the Nonprofit side of OpenAI. Now what this really does is probably force them to pay more in their negotiations. I think since the last round on what they're going to pay or what share of the equity the nonprofit gets in the for profit. But be clear, this is based on the false premise, the statement that you just read that he's concerned.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's not concerned with anything.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, look at his investors. WME and Barron Capital aren't going to put billions of dollars up to try and to try and protect the world from AI. That's not why they make investments. They would be as soon as possible. Their investors here of this $97.5 billion bid would be looking for a return on their capital. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. I think what this is at the end of the day is I think this is an attempt to slow him down. I think he sees this as a free call option. I'm going to fuck with a guy, slow him down. I want Grok or Xai to be, I don't like this guy. I've convinced a bunch of people to come in with me. And if for some reason we manage to get control of the voting class, shares, the nonprofit, then good for me. What are your thoughts?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I think that they've been trying to stop this move and I believe the lawyer is the same lawyer that's dueling with this, made this offer, but they've been trying to mess with the move. And he's been suing OpenAI for a wide range of things. And it boils down to he wanted to take control of it, they said no. He huffed and they were like goodbye. And didn't, you know, didn't chase him in any way. And so he had made a sort of bid to take over at the time, and they thought that he would be irresistible as a lover, I guess, of this company. And it didn't work. And so now he's been just furious ever since as it's become more profitable and he has this sort of enmity towards Sam Altman that's really severe. I heard it myself. But at the time when they started it, that was the idea of it. But of course it was all for profit for all these people in the end. And so this will mess with their move to it. It'll cost them more. It'll be interesting to see what Microsoft has to say about this. Obviously, they're still negotiating over their equity stake in this thing. It was $157 billion is the valuation they're looking at now, which is enormously high. When they started as a charity, maybe for a moment there, but the minute it got profitable, all of them were running for the for profit subsidiary. And that's what. And OpenAI has emails from Musk talking about wanting to turn it into a for profit.

[Scott Galloway]

What if his entities. What if his entities aren't for profit?

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct. They have emails saying it like, he's a liar. He's a liar about wanting this particular sentence or fabulist or whatever. He's just doing it for the performative nature of this. But I think the question is what it will be valued at. And so he's just setting it higher. And who has the. Who would end up with this controlling stake in the new OpenAI? Now, he could have waited until it did this and then tried to make a play for it publicly. But you're right, it's Joe Lonsdale from Palantir, Ari Emanuel, like literally the least charitable people I know, right?

[Scott Galloway]

Let's just say they're the most capitalist.

[Kara Swisher]

Capitalist.

[Scott Galloway]

They're probably charitable people, but no one's gonna put a hundred.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, I mean, they don't want to do this for the good of humanity.

[Scott Galloway]

That's all I'm saying. 100%.

[Kara Swisher]

100%. And so I think he's filed all these legal complaints saying that they had betrayed their non profit mission at the same time colluding with Microsoft. And this Toborov was the one that tried to get the Attorney General's California to do this and do a fair market value. It's a fuck you, Sam kind of thing. And I think he was just to come to the present, there was this announcement at the White House that Musk tried to shit all over this $500 billion on AI infrastructure in this joint venture called Stargate. And he tried to, you know, he tried to, he wasn't in on that. And this is something Trump announced at the White House with Sam Altman. And so he just doesn't want, he wants to block Sam Altman at all. And to say that they're doing it for the charity or fully compensated is just the ploy in order to get close to it. Right. And he said they didn't have the money. He's called Sam Altman a swindler. I mean, he called us deceitful and mean and cruel. But, but Sam Altman's a swindler. So this is very typical of him. And it's largely because Grok just hasn't caught up as much as he's made these efforts to do. So I think this group was on track to value this company, which we think was too high too, at $157 billion.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, first off, let's be fair. Sam Altman is not a swindler. The rest of that might be true, but look, this is the same emotion as a really angry ex spouse. You go through a contentious divorce, you give your half of the house to your spouse, and then the moment you leave, the house ends up going from a million in value to a billion. So you not only feel, you're so fucking angry that you left, you agreed to leave, he gave up all of it. I mean, it just reeks of, you know, burn this village to save it. Angry, angry ex spouse. I'm just so upset at the bad deal I agreed to. He left. They have those emails. He wanted out, he wanted to run.

[Kara Swisher]

It, he wanted it to become a for profit.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, and it's, he's now a distant, distant player in the race and he's got a bunch of people together who all want to be around the, you know, the Elon magic. And he does create a ton of shareholder value with through chaos. At a minimum, I'll slow them down. I'll create, I'll get in the news cycle again, and I'll pretend that it's something righteous. I mean, yeah, I'd love to see Ari Emanuel, the guy from Baron Capital, stand up and tell us why you think AI needs to be a nonprofit. And you're not expecting a return on investment here. You're willing to do this for the good of humanity.

[Kara Swisher]

Very fair. Actually, let me say I made a mistake. This. This transition was part of a $6.6 billion funding round in October that valued at 157, 300. Now it's $40 billion in a new funding round. SoftBank would lead the round and discussions to invest between 15 and 25 billion. This is going to just. And this Stargate thing separately is raising money. And Sam's working on a chip also a very manic entrepreneur, by the way, as is Elon. And they're trying to raise billions for Stargate. This puts uncertainty into it, which is exactly what he's trying to do. He's trying to put uncertainty into a deal because they didn't want him or they didn't. They declined his kind offer to own the place. Right.

[Scott Galloway]

I think what's going to happen here, though, is I think the two people that are going to rally around Altman are going to be arguably one of the more powerful people in tech here and one of the grownups, Satya Nadella and the deep pocket at Masayoshi San. I think this is going to thrust Sam further into their embrace, and I think they're going to rally around Sam because here's the thing around Musk. If you're already rich, you don't want to put up with this guy. You don't want him anywhere. Do you think Satya Nadella wants to go to board meetings with Elon Musk? These guys, It'll create a distraction. But you're gonna see. I think Satya, Microsoft, and Masayoshi san will see this as an opportunity to kind of bear hug Altman. But Altman, in my view, at the end of the day, the most successful people over the long term put themselves in a room full of opportunities because they make a lot of allies. And I have been wrong so far, but one of these people has largely been making allies, and another one of them has been making people a lot of money, but has been making a lot of enemies.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a fair point.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that is gonna come. I think that's gonna come home to Rooster.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, we'll See. What's interesting, it just reminds me, you know, my favorite movie is the original Patrick Swayze, Roadhouse. Do you know that?

[Scott Galloway]

You're kidding me.

[Kara Swisher]

I love it.

[Scott Galloway]

Sam Shepard.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, it's Sam Elliott. Sam Elliott. Elliott.

[Scott Galloway]

Sam Elliott from Lifeguard. That guy's dreamy life.

[Kara Swisher]

I love him so much.

[Scott Galloway]

That guy's dreamy.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, Swayze was in it, and he plays Dalton, and he's trying to save a town, essentially. Jake Gyllenhaal made a terrible version. It made me wanna cry afterwards. But there's a guy, Ben Gazzara plays a guy named Brad Wesley, and he wants to own the whole town, including this shitty bar, right? Like, by the way, Open A is not a shitty bar. And there's questions around after Deep seek, like, is it too overvalued, all of these companies? Right? But anyway, Ben Gazara has to own everything, including this shitty bar. And that's what Elon reminds me of. Brad Wesley didn't end well for Brad Leslie in that.

[Scott Galloway]

All I remember is Kelly Lynch.

[Kara Swisher]

Kelly lynch, that's right. Dr. Liz Elizabeth Clay. I know this whole movie so well. So getting out of the Roadhouse thing, it's like, can you. Aren't you busy ruining the government over here? You want to come and fuck with this guy? This is the level of this guy's energy, I will say. Energy and manic nature that he. That nobody gets. Like, he just can't stop. It's like. It's demented at this point. This is a demented effort. I don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

But he's the ultimate vendor's dream. Because he says to these enormous law firms of incredibly talented smart people and bankers, he has unlimited funds. And this again, goes to the notion that power corrupts. And absolute power absolutely corrupts, and people just shouldn't have this much money. He can say to all of his bankers and all of his lawyers and the smartest people in the services industry, okay, I got 10 minutes. Here's your directive. Fuck with Sam Altman. Come back with a dozen ideas. And somebody came back and said, well, actually, the nonprofit has governance rights, so we can make a bid for the nonprofit. And he says to the banker, get on it. I think the directive here was pretty simple. Fuck with these guys, okay?

[Kara Swisher]

Because the best part of this is the relationship between Sam Altman and Elon Musk. I just wanna read the tweet that Sam Altman had in response. No, thank you. But we will buy Twitter for 9.74 billion if you want. All right? We have to Move on and talk about the super bowl, which was won by the Philadelphia Eagles. President Trump became the first president to attend the super bowl and had a totally normal reaction afterwards, posting on Truth Social. The only one who had a tougher night than the Kansas City Chiefs was Taylor Swift, who got booed out of the stadium. Mag is very unforgiving, actually, Donald. This was kind of a big, like fuck you by many people at the, at the event. The ads were star studded with appearances by Ben Affleck, David Beckham, Glenn Powell and Billy Crystal. Brad Pitt did a long, a big, long ad for the NFL, which was a little woke there. I mean, OpenAI made its Super bowl debut with a 62nd $14 million spot. Obviously, Kendrick Lamar ruled the fricking school. And he just, someone said, you know, he should get the Nobel hate prize because he did such a beautiful, artful job of saying fuck you to the Trump administration. But I just thought it was beautiful. I thought this was amazing. I thought this was amazing and I thought it was artful and beautiful. Did you? What did you think?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I got none of that. So I wasn't gonna watch the Super Bowl. It really. There couldn't be anything more American than a bunch of boner pill ads and opioid induced medication ads while we watch young beautiful men get cte. I mean, it really is American.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't watch it.

[Scott Galloway]

But instead of like Roman Coliseum and Lions, we have Taylor Swift. And I promised myself I wasn't gonna watch. And then my 14 year old goes, dad, you want us to watch Super Bowl? And I'm like, yeah, of course I do. I mean, so a chance to hang out.

[Kara Swisher]

So you heated up the nachos and got okay?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but it started at 11.30pm what did you eat?

[Kara Swisher]

Set the scene for me. What did you eat?

[Scott Galloway]

We had milk and oatmeal chocolate chip cookies.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, all right. It's kind of dull.

[Scott Galloway]

I know. That is kind of dull, isn't it? And then. But of course it was. My 14 year old didn't want to hang out with his dad and watch football. He wanted to stay up till two in the morning. I thought Kendrick Lamar was incredibly boring. Really? I didn't think it was a good performance at all, but I realized I've kind of aged out of that shit. I don't know. But my favorite though, hands down though, the ads that occasionally really move you, there was this wonderful ad and I don't know if you saw this, but it was of a man sitting at the super bowl and he had an empty seat next to him. And someone leans over and asks him, why is it there's an empty seat? And he says that he bought two seats for him and his wife, but his wife unfortunately had recently passed. And then the guy goes, well, I'm so sorry. Why? Why did you not bring someone else from your family? And he responds, they're all at the funeral. I love that. I love that.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you saw that on TikTok. All right, moving on. Amazon shares are down 2.5% in the last five days after a mixed earnings report. The company reported better than expected earnings and revenue, but told investors to expect slowing growth ahead. Based on Amazon's estimates, first quarter revenue growth could be the slowest gross on record for the company. On the upside, revenue rose 10% and net income almost doubled thanks to a cost cutting campaign. There's only so much you can cut, I guess. It's set to pass Walmart in revenue the first time. What's up with this, Scott? This is an area. Is it the effect of Sheen and Tamu or what's going on here?

[Scott Galloway]

I don't think so. I think investors now consider Amazon as essentially a cloud company with a retail unit. And their cloud division actually missed estimates by about $100 million. And even though, even though the growth was 19% to $29 billion, keep in mind that while AWS represents just 15% of Amazon's revenue, it's responsible for the majority of its operating profit, which CEO.

[Kara Swisher]

Andy Jassy used to run. Let's just used to run before he.

[Scott Galloway]

Started and is the reason he's the CEO, because essentially as AWS goes, so does Amazon now. And so the analysts and shareholders are essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Retail, fine, fine, fine. Amazon Prime Video. Yeah, whatever. What's happening with aws? I initially thought that I've said this in my predictions check two or three years ago, that Amazon would eventually spend AWS and AWS would be the most valuable company in the world in five or seven years. And they didn't. Another one wrong. Another one wrong.

[Kara Swisher]

I asked Andy about that during an interview and he said they absolutely are not going to. And I believed him at the time, but I thought they should have.

[Scott Galloway]

They never. They're absolutely not until they do. But anyways. But they essentially Amazon's firing on all cylinders. But the fact that they say they were capacity constrained. The miss was enough to scare investors though, because it's so important in terms of their margin. AWS's operating profit margin was 37% and the rest of Amazon get this, it's just 7%. So it is really. That's the tail wagging the dog here. Amazon is a cloud company with a retail division.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So what happens? What does an investor do? Should they spin it off? It would really be problem, you know, you know you always Talk about shitcos vs this is not a shit go, but it's a version of that, right? If they take the higher growth one and spin it off, is it still too, is it too late to do so?

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I've advocated for a long time that if you took Amazon, Apple and Alphabet and Facebook or Meta and you turned them into 15 companies, you'd end up up with an aggregate that within 24 months these 15 companies would be worth much more than the original four. That breakup was a bad idea. Said no one ever. Breakups are one of the few things in history where the government intervention always works. Shareholders win, innovation wins. The reason, do you think if Google had been a standalone unit or if Google Cloud had been a standalone unit or Google AI had been a standalone unit, do you think they would have stopped? Do you think they would have most likely had an AI application sooner? But they don't. They want to make sure they don't fuck with the toll booth known as search. Shareholders win, consumers win because it creates more competition. You know who wins really big is the employees because they have more people bidding and on their time and renting.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And they are more innovative. You know who doesn't want to do that? People who love to just keep their little groups together and then also then want to merge to get bigger.

[Scott Galloway]

The only people, the only people that really benefit are the person who wants to sit on the iron throne of all seven realms, not just Westeros. And unfortunately, because of dual class shareholder companies, they usually get to make the decision. But if you look at it from a pure shareholder standpoint, I would argue that you'd want to break them up. But in terms of, I think Amazon is the kind of company, my biggest holdings for the last 10 years have been Amazon and Apple. And even when Apple gets to 34 times earnings, which is quite frankly kind of crazy town, the fact that it's growing 2% a year and it's growing, it has a PE multiple of 34 versus its historical average of like 18 or 19, you should probably sell. But at the end of the day, these are the kind of companies that you just sort of hold forever because they just continue to innovate.

[Kara Swisher]

So do you imagine them breaking it off or not?

[Scott Galloway]

In this environment? No, no, no. Not with Cantor and Khan gone. You're going to see these guys are all telling their bankers to sharpen their pencils and actually go acquire and gobble up more stuff.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, it was interesting. I interviewed a conservative economist, Oren Cass today, among others. And he was like. I was like, you'd be for mergers. He's like, no, I don't think mergers for whatever. No, thank you. You know what I mean? Because they aren't necessarily the best thing for economic growth. They don't necessarily promote it, it just promotes bigger companies. And then they fall into the crosshairs of regulators also. And they spend a lot of time doing that. Anyway, I agree. They should break themselves up. That you should always break.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, just to talk about concentration of power, my friend Andy Cohen at JP Morgan pointed something out. This blew my mind. And I've said something about.

[Kara Swisher]

Not the guy from the Housewives series. That's not your friend?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh no. Not Anderson's friend. No, Andy. Andy's like the most likable guy in the world. He literally is exactly in the seat he should be. And that is he is managing tens of billions of dollars for high net worth families. And he's just the most likable guy in the world and also very smart. Nice man. Anyways, he said something that just blew my mind. I of course was like doing my party trick and throwing out stats. And I said that the US equity market now was 50% of the total value of all equities globally. And he said, no, it's actually if you add in debt, corporate debt, America represents 70% of all value globally. So if you think about it, would you rather own the world? Would you rather own America for $70 or if you could own everything but America for 30, which would you pick? And what that says to me is that America is overvalued. And not only is America overvalued, it's really the who world is vulnerable because there are 10 stocks that represent 28 to 33% of the value, meaning that somewhere between 1 and 6 and 1 in $5 globally is dependent upon a small number of companies. And if Amazon and other folks show any slowdown in AI or cloud. Oh my God.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. If there's an AI meltdown, these economists noted that that's going to be an.

[Scott Galloway]

Echo felt around the world.

[Kara Swisher]

We're going to have to bail out the tech bros at some point anyway. All right, we'll see. Let's go on a quick break and when we come back, Trump's latest tariffs. Speaking of bailing out people and Doer's latest targets.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott, we're back. President Trump is touting his latest tariff plan. After hitting pause on those Canada and Mexico tariffs, which are such a joke, such a ridiculous fucking joke. Trump now says he plans to impose 25% tariffs on imports of steel and aluminum will apply to everybody, including Canada, Mexico. Reciprocal tariffs on US Trading partners are also reportedly in the mix this week. I'll note we're recording on Monday morning whether he's going to follow and it's not true. Having just interviewed three economists, none of them think these are a very good idea. One of them thought terrorists sometimes are a good negotiating tactic and sometimes when they're explicit in certain areas, very surgically done, they're a good idea. This was the conservative one. The others thought this was just attacks on people and none of them ever happen. Right. And what a stupid way to. You're trying to. One of them, Mariana Moscato, was saying that you have to focus in on production subsidies over, over tariffs, like to help companies, to help industries and be very specific about it, versus tariffs, which is just a blunt instrument that is about the past. Anyway, talk about these. This seems like this is just some more air blowing from this fellow that upsets markets.

[Scott Galloway]

World leaders are learning how to deal with them, and that is you mollify them by making some token gestures. Basically, Claudia Sheinbaum and Trudeau said, all right, I'll tell you what, we'll do this. And they were already doing it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And then he walks it back.

[Kara Swisher]

And also there wasn't that much fentanyl coming over the border from Canada. It's so ridiculous. And linking it to things that have nothing to do with economics are ridiculous. Right.

[Scott Galloway]

But they basically kind of managing him. But our presence across the world is a function of leverage and relationships. And if you said to your husband, you're really vulnerable right now, whatever, you're out of work and I'm going to leave you unless you do the following things. And you're really like, he or your partner might be so scared and so upset and so vulnerable, they say, okay, you're bigger than me, you're more important than me. I agree. But what does that do to the long term relationship? And I don't think people realize that these people at some point they will find explicit and implicit ways. Canada, we're brothers in arms. They're our allies, they're our friends. They followed us into Afghanistan. This is just so short, so short sighted. And it's also the hint or the insight here I think is the following. The adult in the administration Here is the 10 year bond in the stock market and the 1% who Trump listens to corporations and very, very wealthy people. And what happened here was the following. They called them and said this is all cute, but you realize XYZ company we're going to lose 20% of our sales overnight and you're probably going to see the gas spike and you're going to see the 10 year bond. And he pretends that he has a victory and he walks it back. And I think the lesson here for Democrats is the following. I think that we are now at a point where because they control all three branches of government and we really can't do anything through our institutions in sending congresspeople to wave their cane at the building of the Department of Education, that's just not an effective strategy optically.

[Kara Swisher]

Is that an age? Remarkable. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh fuck. Put a third of em on a fucking ice floe. I've had it. I've had it.

[Kara Swisher]

Is the Democrats or all.

[Scott Galloway]

It literally, it literally looks like be.

[Kara Swisher]

Bipartisan if you're gonna do this.

[Scott Galloway]

It looks like a senior's home where they've canceled water aerobics at this point that's how effective an outrage they Charles Schumer will win. Oh, okay, thanks. That feels better, Chuck. Anyways. These people are so fucking pathetic. Oh no, it's. They've switched jello night to Tuesdays. Rise up America. My God. Anyways, this is the strategy.

[Kara Swisher]

This wasn't so grim. I shouldn't laugh, but it's funny. Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

This is the strategy. Fine. You want mutual assured destruction, we are not going to approve an increase in the debt limit and we're going to have a failed treasury auction. And the 1% who own 90% of the stocks, you're going to start getting calls from them. You want to go gangster? Let's go gangster. Because the bottom line is when it comes to economics, the tariffs. You know what Trump did? He blanked.

[Kara Swisher]

He did. It doesn't just blink. It's all such nonsense. It's not even blinking.

[Scott Galloway]

It's like such a there's a lesson here. This is where we have leverage. Our leverage is around the bond market and a failed treasury auction. And I recognize this could set off something really ugly. But before it sets it off, the people he cares about, corporations which have their lowest tax rate since 1939 and the 1% who have garnered an extraordinary amount of spoils, are going to call him and say, you realize the Democrats are going to shut down. You're going to be the first president that has a failed treasury auction. That is our leverage. Enough of this screaming into TikTok. And this is where we have leverage and this is where we should go.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's interesting. So speaking of which, Elon's power bank continues with Doge worming itself into at least 15 government agencies. Of course he's going to do this. Trump says he's happy about things are going he sang Elon's praises and talked about Doge's next targets in the Super Bowl. Interview with FOX News News is Brett Baer. Let's listen. I've had a great help with Elon Musk, who's been terrific. Bottom line, you say you trust him, trust Elon. Oh, he's not gaining anything. In fact, I wonder how he can devote the time to it. He's so into it. But I told him do that. Then I'm going to tell him very soon, like maybe in 24 hours to go check the Department of Education. He's going to find the same thing. Then I'm going to go to the military. Let's check the military. We're going to find billions, hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud and abuse. Yeah, they found a billion, maybe. But this is already stuff people knew with other commissions, including Steve Ballmer, has shown a lot of costs. This is not new stuff this man is finding at all. And it's very small in comparison to most of they're always trying to find like the gold toilet seat. That's what they're always, you know, like, oh, it's a $600 toilet seat. That's what they're looking for. But the federal judge temporarily blocked Doge's access to the Treasury Department pay of the weekend, citing risk of irreparable harm, though it's unclear when or if Doge employees will comply with that order. We'll talk about compliance. We're going to get into that strategy with the courts after the break. But thoughts on the latest Doge moves. The Consumer Finance Protection Board, which has returned money to the treasury by a lot, temporarily closed its offices and suspended its services. And they're pushing to rapidly develop a custom AI chatbot to analyze government data. According to Wired and Doge, employers have also fed sensitive data from the Education Department into AI software to probe the agency's programs and spending. According to the Washington Post. This has all been done before. It's just very performative. I think it's just to gain access to the data and who knows what I mean, you don't necessarily have to assume they're nefarious. But why not? Why not just go start with nefarious and work your way down from there? Your thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

I think it's war and I think that unfortunately we're on the wrong side of it. And we thought we built these impenetrable institutionas these Maginot Lines and they just dropped. The Nazis just dropped paratroopers behind this impenetrable border called the Maginot Line. And I think we're on the Democrats. The Panzer tanks have rolled in and we're trying to fight them on horseback. We shouldn't be talking about what's outrageous about this or what's wrong about it. We should be saying the following. If a group of talented engineers can come in and cut off payments to veterans, cut off payments to children in low income areas, then, and once we're in power, I wonder if we could find some really intelligent young people to cut off payments to Starlink overnight. Overnight. We think, by the way, we're wondering if space is sovereign territory and that you're trespassing and we should take control of your 51 satellites. And we have some really talented people from Google and from different tech companies that we think could go in and shut down Starlink and start asking questions the next day and find it and let's find out if maybe it's not legal. Let's find out. Out. So instead of like screaming into fucking TikTok or on MSNBC if you can do this, well, we're going to come up with some creative ideas about maybe we could do the same thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? Unfortunately, that's where it leads. Right? Presidents have been trying to expand their power for a long, long time. Right. This is not a new trend and it's bipartisan, by the way. But this is sort of what's interesting to me is how performative it is. And then when you call them out on it, they're like, how dare you call us out? But I'm like, they're literally going jazz hands all over the place and then making these ridiculous statements about cost savings when they're saving very little. It's not strategic, it's not legal. They're not doing it with Congress. And I understand the need to a little shock and awe in that regard. I'm not against that. I do think the way they're doing it is just so deleterious to what they're trying to accomplish, which is, you know, they put a tiny little bit. We want to say, make the government more efficient. No shit, Sherlock. So do the rest of us. Right? We want to make the government more efficient. But to do it in this way is purposely creating havoc and purposely against what you're supposed to do to actually save money. And they're going to find very little savings by doing this. The fact that he mentioned military was my. I was like, oh, dear, you're going to go over that over on that rail. Because the only thing, you know, I was just interviewing these economists today, and Paul Krugman correctly said the United States is an insurance company with a military because most of the spending is Medicare, Medicaid and things like that or the military. So if you're going for the Medicare where the real money is, good fucking luck on that one. And if you notice, they're not. So the fact that he mentioned military was really interesting to me. And again, probably full of fraud and full of problems, but not in the way that they're talking about. In any way, I don't think.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, so. So something I've struggled with my entire career is the difference between being right and being effective. And I think the majority of the Democratic Party and the majority of media talking about some of the points you've just referenced are right. I want to move to the effective part of the conversation.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

And this is how I think we become effective. If you want to hurt Trump or stop him, you got to stop Musk. And if you want to stop Musk, you need to go after the surface area of attack. And it's one thing, it's money. It's already happening in Europe. BV sales in Europe are down 6%, but they're down like 20 to 40% across France in different nations.

[Kara Swisher]

In Europe, it was like 69% in Germany or they're off.

[Scott Galloway]

They're off dramatically. Should you be signing up for T Mobile right now? Should veterans be signing up? Should veterans be communicating to their colleagues or institutions or people in areas affected by this? Should they be saying T Mobile? I'm not down with you partnering with Elon Musk at Starbucks, starlink. Should you be flying United Airlines, which Just announced a big deal with Starlink. Should you. And I'm just speaking for a friend here, but what if every time you get an Uber, Every time I get an Uber, if it pulls up, if it says Tesla Model S, I cancel and I put in the notes. I will not ride in a Tesla. I'm dumb being right. Let's be effective. And this is about going after. One third of Musk's wealth was not only created by these democratic institutions and rule of law, which he has no fidelity to. So fine, let's take some of it back. But trying to talk about how outrageous this is and whether it's illegal or not legal. Let's go after all these guys care about, they care about power and they care about money. Let's move from the right part of the program to the effective part of the program. Program.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, here's the only problem. Look, its shares were down very low for a while, in the low two hundreds. Now they're, you know, they, they peaked right around Trump's election time at 400 and some. And now they're slowly ticking down. They're at 358. They're still enormously high. Right. It's 175pe ratio. And, and the stock is falling.

[Scott Galloway]

But that's the opportunity.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? The stock is falling, but it's not. So. So I definitely think you should focus on Musk and how much money he's making out of this and how he's. If he had spent some money against usaid. I don't know who paid for that. If it was the American taxpayer, it was a lot of money ill spent attacking usaid. If he spent his own money, he could knock himself the fuck out.

[Scott Galloway]

T Mobile subscribers. Do you want to work with a guy who's giving Nazi salutes?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, but what else? I don't think it's wrong to try to push back the legal. Legally, I think that's quite smart.

[Scott Galloway]

That's happening. That's happening. The only way you get either of these guys to notice, in my view, is you go after their money.

[Kara Swisher]

And what about the access to data? I mean, everyone, of course thinks we're in the middle of a Bond movie where they're winning the whole nine yards of it. How do you feel about the data part?

[Scott Galloway]

I ask it sincerely. What is, what is the concern? I understand that we don't want to hand over our data. This individual, I've seen some, I don't want to call it conspiracy theory, but theories that the end game here is to get data to train his AI models. But I don't fully understand why people perceive, other than just a pure violation of people's privacy and getting access to your data and what they could do with that data. I mean, if there will, if he, if these people who have access to all of our information truly think we are, are cruel and deceitful people, that's probably not, you know, that's not that comforting. But what is the fear of the concern beyond just the circumvention of the democratic and constitutional norms?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I think it's opening it up, creating a real danger in terms of opening it up. Let me just read you someone who knows. I was talking about cisa. He was making cuts to cisa, which has always been in his crosshairs. Trump's crosshairs. Elon eliminated the ability to track disinformation on Twitter. Zuck eliminated it for Meta. Stanford cut the Samos Rene project. Pam Bondi just eliminated the FBI task force that tracked foreign influence campaigns. And now this at CISA. All this when disinformation is now being spouted to AI speeds. It's a gift to Putin and Xi on CISA in particular. They've been in Trump's crosshairs since 2020. It's barely getting, you know, it's not much. There's a cut, but still on anyone's left. But what they're saying is who can pay to track disinformation and do legal takeouts were. And everyone else, the electorate were just fucked. And so, you know, this was someone who, who's been covering this is that we are very exposed and also allowing the Chinese and Russians incredible act, possible access to sensitive data. Every single one of these researchers I talked to is like, are you kidding? This is terrifying. We just opened the gates.

[Scott Galloway]

This just feels, I, I, I think what, you know, I don't know what the definition or if you talk about gluttony. I think America, unfortunately, is paying the price for so much security. I don't think they realize how many people do not wish us well around the world.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they don't.

[Scott Galloway]

And that they're fairly sophisticated and they understand how to use data and how to weaponize it. And how many people work so hard and take huge risks to try and protect us. And then a lot of that effort, decades of skill, effort, sacrifices, being just kind of thrown out the window. And until, I mean, it just goes to these very basics. The biggest takers and the people most upset and the people who want to tear down the Government, are the people benefiting the most from these programs? I mean, the reality is, Kara, is your and my life, it's not going to change that much. I mean, I think there's some.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm concerned about the Russians and the Chinese. I think that equally affects all of us, no matter. Matter what economic bracket you're in of them having this information.

[Scott Galloway]

You know what, though? I get that. But if America's. I mean, we're now in an economic weight class where we can move to Milan or so I. This. It just doesn't make. It's just so incredible that the people who seem to be most. It's like they're burning their own house down. Look at the regions that were so deep red. They're the ones that benefit the most from these programs.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's true.

[Scott Galloway]

So my attitude is, okay, okay, you want your Medicaid, you don't want your insulin, you don't want your kid, you don't want a school. And you're, you know, in that rural town mandated by the federal government. You don't want your uncle in Veteran Affairs. I mean, fine, okay, here's the country you wanted.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree with you. But at the same time, I do think this stuff out in the wild, it's like someone just opened all the nuclear things and just like, we need to clean up this nuclear stuff and just open them. I just think puts us. It literally puts us in a Bond villain movie situation. I think, anyway, I think there's going to be huge repercussions going forward. And it's a gift to China and Russia. Every single person who I find intelligent thinks this. All right, let's go on a quick break. More on Elon and Trump's strategy to target courts. Not just Elon, also. J.D. vance, foreign.

[Scott Galloway]

Hey, this is Peter Kafka. I'm the host of Channels, a podcast about technology and media. And maybe you've noticed that a lot of people are investing a lot of money trying to encourage you to bet on sports right now, right from your phone. That is a huge change, and it's happened so fast that most of us haven't spent much time thinking about what it means and if it's a good, good thing. But Michael Lewis, that's the guy who wrote Moneyball and the Big Short and Liars Poker, has been thinking a lot about it, and he tells me that he's pretty worried. I mean, there was never a delivery mechanism for cigarettes as efficient as the phone is for delivering the gambling apps. It's like the world has created less and less friction for the behavior when what it needs is more and more. You can hear my chat with Michael Lewis right now on channels wherever you get your podcasts. The Republicans have been saying lots of things. Just yesterday their leader said he wants to own Gaza.

[Kara Swisher]

The US Will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too. We'll own it.

[Scott Galloway]

On Monday, the Secretary of state said an entire federal agency was insubordinate. USAID in particular. They refused to tell us anything we want. Tell you what the money's going to, where the money's for, who has it. Over the weekend, Vice President Elon Musk, the richest man on earth, tweeted about the same agency that, you know, gives money to the poorest people on earth. We spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper.

[Kara Swisher]

Could gone to some great parties, did that instead.

[Scott Galloway]

But what have the Democrats been saying?

[Kara Swisher]

People are aroused. I haven't seen people so aroused in absolute very, very long time.

[Scott Galloway]

Huh. That's a weird way to put it. Senator, we're gonna ask what exactly is the Democrats strategy to push back on Republicans on Today Explained. All right, so here's the deal. Take a former world number one, that's me, Andy Roddick. Add in a journalist who knows everything about tennis and a producer who's still figuring out how to spell tennis. You get served with Andy Roddick, a weekly podcast where where we break down the game we all love. We cover the biggest stories, talk to the sport's biggest stars and highlight the people changing tennis in ways you might not even realize. Whether it's Grand Slam predictions, coaching changes, off court drama, or the moves shaping the future of the sport, we've got it all. This podcast is about having fun, sharing insights, and giving fans a real look at what makes tennis so great. Catch serve with Andy Roddick on Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever, wherever you listen or watch us on YouTube, like, subscribe, follow all that good stuff. Let's get started.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back. As Donald Trump and others continue to push their agenda, the only thing standing in their way appears to be the courts. For now, federal judges have halted parts of Trump's executive order blitz, including the federal federal spending freeze, worker buyouts, and Doge's access to the payment system, as we mentioned earlier. But everyone's they're attacking the judiciary first. Musk called for the impeachment of a judge who ruled against Doge. He's also proposing that the worst 1% of appointed judges be fired every year. Sorry, Eileen Cannon, you're going. This undermined the strategy was especially by J.D. vance. He put one out that got enormous attention, and I think it's a coordinated effort. He posted over the week and that judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power, which of course, everyone was like, did you go to Yale Law School? Trump administration lawyers also filed a motion saying doge ruling impinges on the president's absolute powers of the executive branch, which of course they're going to do. But they're moved to the undermine the judiciary portion of the show, I think. And the cases will likely get appealed. Some will go to the Supreme Court. We'll see where that goes. But remember, after the immunity decision last year, Justice Sotomayor wrote, the president is now king above the law. So. And even if the courts do rule against Trump, I'm going to give you the whole package. Enforcement will be up to the doj, which he controls. The doj, through the US Marshals Service, controls that. So a lot of my legal people say there's no enforcement mechanism for any of this stuff. And if he resists, he can just resist. He can resist illegally, too. So. And it takes a while for things to shake out in that regard, because judiciary does not have enforcement powers.

[Scott Galloway]

I think it's Ruth Ben Guot. Is that her name? Ben Giat? She summarized it. I think it was her. If it was another historian, I'm sure I'll hear about it. But she said most democracies are driven institutionally, that at the end of the day, the courts rule. And then kind of the slow burn to fascism or a dictatorship is you move to a paternalistic model, and that's the right term. It's this father, where you decide, this guy knows better than everybody else and you get the government you deserve. And that is this guy was freely and fairly elected by a country that decided it's okay to be a convicted felon. And so he now believes, and he has the incentive structure and the results to show it, that he can be elected president despite being a convicted felon. So why on earth would he not believe, and others who support him not believe that, that he's above the law? That's America basically said, okay, he's above the law and he gets to make these decisions now.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, the Supreme Court said that, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Haven't we given him all these green lights and say, yeah, just break the law. Just, it's okay, just move, move it. Don't go around institutions. Don't you know, the law no longer applies to you we're moving to this paternalistic government structure that is kind of, you know, more are more tightly associated with dictatorships than democracies.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think it's problematic. I think the issue that they don't have enforcement. If a group of people is willing to break laws and then break rulings against their activities, there is nowhere to go. Right. And then if, I mean the place to go is people protest. Right. That's the next step. And of course he could declare martial law, which is, you know what I mean? If we protest even slightly, maybe he'll say it's martial law. So it really does, it really, really does put it into stark relief how fragile our systems are in ways that I think we don't think about. Let me just read something someone who I really respect wrote me, who's pretty well done. This is an impending constitutional crisis. Courts and Congress become subordinate to the executive branch and then our system crumbles at its foundation. We are nearing that moment, if not there already. Our system is far more fragile than most people appreciate. It depends on people in power respecting the constitutional framework. At bottom, it's an honor system. Most people in power this at a gut level and will not touch the third rail. But here we are in uncharted territory. Never have we seen this happen at such a scale and depth. And I said, oh well, that's happy. And he said, it's going to get worse before it gets better. And I said, what does better look like? And he responded, they're going to break too many things. Markets will eventually crash and people will lose basic services. The problem is it will take time for the public to really feel it. He brought it back to the market itself too, is when the market goes, that's when they stop. Right. And that's, you know, that's. There's a lot of damage in the interim. This guy's not a, trust me, he's not a like hyperbolic person in any way. And he's usually like, eh, whatever for a lot of Donald Trump's things. But in this case, concerned especially when it has to lead to market meltdown.

[Scott Galloway]

Essentially or violence makes sense. I mean, I'm so sort of overwhelmed and having.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm sorry, did I just depress you?

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, I'm just, I'm having a difficult time processing every so sort of destruction of our institutions and what feels like everything, the pillars of what we thought we could rely on and sort of default to, that judges matter, that laws matter, that institutions matter, that there's a level of mutual Respect that you don't hack the government and stop payments to people in need. And it definitely feels like the operating. We've pressed the reset button and we're not entirely sure what's going to happen when it reboots back up.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. That's a really good way to put it. It is sort of, you know, for people who don't understand it is this Silicon Valley ethos of do we really need judges? Do we really. They question everything. And in some cases that is a great thing. In other cases, it's deeply dangerous. Right. The idea of things that probably we. Not we shouldn't be questioning, but maybe we could do it better. They don't ever want to do it better. They just want to wreck it and then clean it up afterwards. And that's a very muscular, like, characteristic. It's not just him, it's a lot of Silicon Valley. And so it's that thinking that, like, what could go wrong? Is it so bad if we break it? And I think you have to really understand their personality. And when it will matter was when for at least Trump, from what you just noted, will be when the economy tanks, when the market tanks, when rich people get made discomforted by this. Right. Versus just the moral argument that you should make that this, this system has worked for centuries and pretty well, even if it has all kinds of hair on it. Right. That this, this is actually. We've never had a stronger economy, we've never been more productive, we've never been more everything. And yet here we are starting to take apart the pieces that actually quietly hold it together.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but there's. I agree with you. And that was my narrative kind of coming in, you know, when I was told to understand the assignment and support Biden and Harris, which I agreed to and signed up for, for a lot of reasons. But what, what a lot of America has said is the, the narrative that, that you throw a bunch of numbers at me about the market and our prosperity and all I know is this all reverse engineers, in my opinion, to income inequality and people being reminded every day that they seem to be the only people that aren't succeeding and that no one, you know, that they're left behind, that their kids, they can't afford them. 40% of Americans now have some form of medical or dental debt. I think there needs to be a new crop of leadership that comes out with really dramatic bolts. So I'd like to, you know, let's lower Medicaid two years every year for the next 25 years until we have nationalized medicines. There just needs to be some really big bold ideas from the left as opposed to burn everything down. And these discussions, I don't even want to entertain these discussions with the right right now because as far as I'm concerned, no, I, I, I'm not going to engage in a conversation with you. You're, you're trying to foment an illegitimate forum around this discussion. You have, in my opinion. You're trespassing and you're illegally hacking our government systems without government oversight. And I just don't think we should sure. Talk about how outrageous it is.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm just pointing out it's not an excuse, it's an explanation of what their mentality is. And I think these people do not care about disruption or the effect. And I think downstream, away from all, all of this huffing and puffing by everybody and it's very serious stuff, Scott. It really is. This is going to affect, this is nothing to do with the price of fucking eggs, right? Any of this. And attacking the court system, which is people who run businesses like laws, laws are good. Laws is good. If everyone runs stop signs and runs red lights and decides to murder people, this is not good for the economy. This is not good for stability. And so what's interesting is this like thoughtless idea of breaking without thinking of the implications of it. And I'm not exercised about it. I'm sort of like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Like, are you crazy? This works pretty fucking well. And so to me, it all does boil down to people who like disruption and don't mind breaking and because they're in a position to be fine with it and maybe they'll benefit in the new order. And regular people who are gonna see enormous economic stress from all of this if they keep going at the rate they're going. I mean basically, if the rule of law feels at risk, if judges feel nervous, if, when you call the U.S. marshals Service, then they decide not to come because Pam Bondi is a suck up, that's a problem. That's a real, people don't believe in the law really pretty much. I don't know. I think that's an economic problem.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, when I moved to Law London, within kind of six months, I just gained a new appreciation for America in terms of the viscosity, the risk, aggressiveness in general. People start from a position of yes, they're optimistic, there's just a shit ton of opportunity. Our universities are just incredible. Our entrepreneurs are incredible. I generally think that in the wild in America. People are generous, really decent people. I'm so impressed with our. It sounds weird. I miss my students. I miss the service. We used to have this wonderful program like a GI Bill. All these incredibly talented young people who went to work in government. America works less bad than any other nation in the world. And I think a lot of citizens in the United States are about to find out that government isn't as bad as they think. And they're really going to miss it when it gets shut down when they start. Stop. You know, the FAA does an amazing job. Your Veterans affairs department, sure, there's a lot of waste, but the reason why one of the reasons we are, you know, respected around the world and get the best treaties and have 700 military bases is because we have all these people who are willing to sign up and put themselves in harm's way. And then when they come back, we attempt to reasonably honor them and take care of them. People are about to find out just how well actually American government does work. And if you have to move to London or if you have to have your benefits taken away and find out what happens when these institutions collapse, okay, so be it. I hope the collateral damage isn't as enormous as it likely will be, But I just feel like we're dealing with a series that Americans have become. Everybody has a tendency to say, Americans. I think they're fucking spoiled children at this point. I don't think they realize how fortunate they are at the largesse and inefficiency of government.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Scott, just remember, you're mean, cruel and deceitful. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?

[Scott Galloway]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to do two wins today. One is, I got to say, Wired's coverage of all things Elona Doge has become essential reading. Scoop after scoop, all the craziest. Well, they've got a new editor, Katie Drummond, who's they call the Digital Thorn and Elon Musk side is Wired. But I gotta say final. This is. You know, Wired has gone in and out of relevance over the many years, but I gotta say, this is just great reporting. And their subscriptions are up. Amanda came home, she goes, I just got a subscription to Wired. Like, you know, it's just. It's doing a great job on basic news. And it's been very fair. It hasn't been snarky, it hasn't been it's just been, here's who they. This is what they're doing. Here's what's happening. I have to say, it's essential reading, and I give them great credit for that. And I like to call out institutions that have really, just really improved our lives. And they're doing a great job. They're doing a great job and doing it with real steadiness, which is really hard to do. My other win. I hate to say this, but the penny thing. That Trump wants to end the production of Penny. I hate pennies, so I'm happy with that. I wanted to say one positive thing about the Trump administration. I don't like cash. I don't like cash at all. That's how I feel. So I feel this is a win.

[Scott Galloway]

There you go. I have two wins. I don't know what platform it's on, but I'm fascinated with this woman. She's a historian and staff writer at the Atlantic named Anne Applebaum.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I love her. She was just on the podcast. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And I've just. I'm learning a lot from her, and I think she has a very measured and thoughtful way of looking at history and relating it to what's going on now. So I would recommend everyone tune in or do a search for Ann Appelbaum on Instagram, and then I'm gonna have another win because I'm too freaked out to have too many fails. I've been watching the Penguin, and it's actually just okay. It's not what you expect. It's good. It's not great.

[Kara Swisher]

Won all those awards, but.

[Scott Galloway]

Colin Farrell. Is that his name? Is it Colin Farrell?

[Kara Swisher]

Colin Farrell.

[Scott Galloway]

He's. I mean, my God, he's a trans. Jesus. He'll. I think he'll win a lot because you know what they like. They want you to play someone who's mentally disabled or overweight or, you know, they want you to transform into someone else.

[Kara Swisher]

A lot of costuming happening with him. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Supposedly it took four hours every time, but he is. I mean, it's just fascinating to kind of watch him and how good he is. It's hard not to take your eyes off his performance. So I think it's just. I think his performance is just incredible. I think occasionally, you know, Walter White and Breaking Bad, I forget the actor's name. You know, occasionally there's a performance. The guy.

[Kara Swisher]

Bryan Cranston.

[Scott Galloway]

Bryan Cranston. But this is that kind of role, and it's just as an unwind, just to appreciate this guy's craft, and he's you know, he's so handsome and he's so. I've never thought of him. I do think, you know, we were talking about Brad Pitt. I think really exceptionally good looking people don't get the credit they deserve as actors.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's a good looking man.

[Scott Galloway]

And you know what he did? He had to do four hours of makeup to make him really, really ugly for you to realize what a good actor he is. But anyways, my wins are Anne Applebaum and the Penguin with Colin Farrell.

[Kara Swisher]

He's done a ton of great movies. He was in a remake of the. Of the one set on Mars that Arnold Schwarzenegger was in Total Recall. Do you remember that?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, really? Yeah, I'm sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

I like the Schwarzenegger version much better. But yeah, he's been on a ton of stuff. He's a very. He's a very talented person in general. And a handsome man. He's a handsome man.

[Scott Galloway]

And a handsome man. There you go. Have you seen the one with Nicole Kidman where she's banging the.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't do it. I can't do it. I don't want to watch her have an orgasm. I'm sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Really?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I think you're being ageist.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think so.

[Scott Galloway]

She was the young, hot Nicole Kidman years ago.

[Kara Swisher]

I literally have no fucking interest in it. I have no interest in it. I don't want to see it. Don't want to see her having an orgasm. Several times.

[Scott Galloway]

What did you think of the commercial When Harry Met Sally? When they redid. Did you see that? They redid the scene.

[Kara Swisher]

I didn't see the commercial. I have to watch it. I don't like when they redo things like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Don't watch it. It's depressing because you realize how old you are. Because they look like Democratic congresspeople storming the Department of Education.

[Kara Swisher]

It's like, oh, God. The only thing I liked was the new Mission Impossible is coming and I can't wait. Reckoning, whatever. Dead reckoning. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com piv to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. But speaking of movies elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, I talked to Cynthia Erivo on. On who is the great. She's in Wicked, but she's also been in the Color Purple on Broadway. She's all over the place. She was in Harriet. This woman's like if she wins an Oscar, she gets an egot. And I think she's great. So I interviewed her. Let's listen. I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film. It's not just for little girls. It's not just for kids, that it's actually for everyone. There is something for everyone in it. And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that no men can understand what's going on. We don't say that of films that are mainly male, and most films are mainly male. I mean, we have the Irishman, which was, quite frankly, all men. But nobody is saying this is a dude film. No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film. We go and we watch good cinema that's aimed at you, Scott.

[Scott Galloway]

I want to see Wicked. It's supposed to be fantastic. I want to see it. And she's supposed to be an immense talent. And I like Ariana Grande.

[Kara Swisher]

Good cinema. She also talked a lot about being queer. A whole bunch of stuff. It was really. Actually a really good interview. And I needed a palette cleanser, so. Scott, I needed a pilot cleanser.

[Scott Galloway]

You deserve it.

[Kara Swisher]

I dove from. I went from Ann Applebaum, and now I'm back into it with a legal and economic one. So I needed.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm gonna bring you back. I'm gonna make you watch Nicole Kidman have orgasms.

[Kara Swisher]

No, we're not. I would never watch that with you. That would be so awkward. Oh, my God. I can't go to a sex movie with you. I just. That just flashed through my head.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, that wasn't on my bingo card either. So, yeah, that's not gonna happen because.

[Kara Swisher]

I had a discussion with my. With Louis the other day when we went to see Sausage Party. I took him as a teenager to Sausage Party. We were laughing our asses off because it was like, awkward parent. I took him to Sausage Party, which was a cartoon. I thought it would just be funny. And it turned out to be food having a lot of sex. That was gross. And he looked at me while we were watching it, and he goes, this is awkward. And I go, I'm the worst parent ever. Shall we leave? He goes, no. And I had to stay there and watch this horrible food orgy with my son at the time. It was terrible. I can't watch Nicole Kidd movie. Okay, we're not watching Nicole. We're not doing that. We're gonna go to a mission.

[Scott Galloway]

We're gonna go see Wicked.

[Kara Swisher]

W. You should go see Wicked with me. Let's do that. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

Let's do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Let's do that. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more Pivot. Scott, read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show is produced by Larry Naimon, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie intertied entry in this episode. Thanks also to Drew Bros, Ms. Silverio and Dan Shalon. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back on Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Please judge Kara and me by the enemies we've made.