Loading summary
Transcript198 lines
- [00:01]
A
Support for this show comes from IBM. Is your AI built on everyone or is it built to work with your business data? IBM helps you integrate and govern unstructured data wherever it lives so your business can have more accurate AI instead of just more of it. Get your Data ready for aibm.com that's IBM.com, the AI built for business. IBM.
- [00:29]
B
Support for this show comes from Robinhood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robinhood Trading. Crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto llc. Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or sipc. Protected investing involves risk, including loss of principal. Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC member sipic, a registered broker dealer.
- [01:13]
A
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're.
- [01:15]
B
Not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint.
- [01:22]
A
Finish and satin or what that clunking.
- [01:25]
B
Sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app.
- [01:36]
A
Download. Today you and I would go to a Liberace show. I love Liberace, so I also like Don Ho. I'm in that zone. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher and welcome back to Scott Free August. I never get tired of that. It's the final week of Scot Free August. Though he is coming back soon. He's been texting me lately, so we know he's getting a little jumpy on his vacation in his expensive house, wherever it happens to be. But I have yet another amazing co host. This has been an astonishing month. To Tim Miller, welcome to Pivot.
- [02:19]
B
Hey, Kara. I've just been kind of warming up some takes about narcissism and the crisis of young men and Cialis and stuff to help people kind of transition back into Scott September.
- [02:31]
A
Okay, go for it. Do you have anything?
- [02:33]
B
Yeah, well, no, I just. I think it's important to encourage. To encourage older men to use Cialis and encourage younger men to get out there in the world and find women to sleep with or men, whatever. Because we don't, you know, we don't want incels. And I think it leads to other problems. And I think Scott's really, really good on this point.
- [02:53]
A
Yeah. Okay, good. Well, thank you. You be you. That's the whole point of this endeavor. And you are a certain personality. You are also the host of the Bulwark Podcast, where you do a great job and former GOP strategist. I cannot believe that at this point. Anyway, welcome.
- [03:06]
B
It's been a decade.
- [03:08]
A
Yeah. Of the decade. Yeah. So talk about your podcast a little bit. And what's the most interesting conversation you've had on there?
- [03:14]
B
Oh, boy. Ever. Or recently.
- [03:16]
A
Recently.
- [03:17]
B
You know, look, the podcast, it's a daily podcast, which is a bit of a grind. So I feel this obligation to be on the news and get in the news, while at the same time, like, if it's fucking Trump is awful porn every day, you know, I'm gonna kill myself. And I think that the listeners will, too. And so you have to kind of have a balance between that. So I don't know. I mean, like, for example, on the Trump porn one, I loved my John Lovett conversation recently. Cause I made him cry. I think he's. I think mine's the only podcast he's cried on. So if people wanna really get in touch with their feelings.
- [03:48]
A
He seems like a. To me.
- [03:49]
B
Yeah, I know, Exactly. So if you want to get in touch with their feelings, you can listen to two gay men who hide our feelings underneath sarcasm. Try to expand. I had your boy J. Cal on a couple weeks ago. I thought that was interesting. Just because my boy. It's a gag. It's a gag.
- [04:06]
A
Okay, good.
- [04:07]
B
Look, I don't know if you feel this way. It's hard. I really want to, in the second Trump term, have people on who are less radicalized against him than me, just to kind of hash it out. It's important to hear the other perspectives. The problem is, is most Trump supporters are full of shit. And so it's. And I don't want anybody on the podcast that's full of shit. I know you guys do this, too. I want only people on who are gonna say what they really think. And so I can't have somebody on who, like, will say one thing on the podcast in the green room and be like, you know, he really. He really has gone too far on this thing. You know, that doesn't work. And so Jake Kelsey, which they do.
- [04:40]
A
Just for people who don't know, they'll come up to you in a green room and be like, I agree with you. And you're like, you fucking asshole. Like, that's when I truly hate them. Jason's in. This is Jason Calacanis, right?
- [04:50]
B
Yeah, Jason Calacanis. All in podcast. He at least will when he disagrees with Trump, which I think he's at least telling the truth to me. You don't.
- [04:57]
A
Well, he's an interesting. I've known him for 30, 40 years now. He was a media person. He ran a bunch of tech stuff. And he's kind of a jazz hands kind of fella. I don't know what else to put it. He's really loathsome to Scott for reasons undetermined, probably jealousy. We used to be friends, I would say I stayed at his house and stuff like that. And his, his need to suck up to power is really quite distasteful to me. And, you know, he's sort of like the clown to Elon or whatever that group of people he's on the podcast with. All in. I feel bad. Cause I thought he was very clever and actually one of the early media entrepreneurs and a really enthusiastic person. But, you know, one of the things that I always had a problem in our relationship was that he was. He couldn't do hard things. Like, he was a very big proponent of Travis Kalanick until everybody turned on Travis Kalanick. And then he was against Travis Kalanis. And then when he came back, he was for. I'm like, do you have any lasting values of anything? But that's what bothers me is that.
- [06:02]
B
Well, I thought that was an interesting. It's interesting you say that because one of the interesting things about the interview was like. Because that's his nature. He was totally candid about the fact. One of the things that I try to get to, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this is like, why did all of these billionaires become putty in Trump's hands? I get that in some cases they want access. It's about power, it's about money. If Trump's gonna act like authoritarian and they need to do it, but, like, in other cases, they didn't really need to and they did it anyway. And why. And he. And he's just blunt about the fact that like Trump, you know, responds to their phone calls, Biden never did their feelings, their little fifis were hurt that Elon wasn't invited to some summit. And like. And so I thought that was like, interesting. Just how blunt he was about that. That, like, sucking up to power was, like, the reason why these guys do it. Like, basically, that's it. It's no deeper than that, which he.
- [06:50]
A
Is very good at, let me just say. And again, I like Jason because I feel bad we don't speak now and because he won' because they're mad at me. And I'm like, don't you have any fucking balls, Jason? You know, we had a pretty good relationship. And he won't because he's like. Cause it's sort of like the court jester in a lot of ways to those people. I think, you know, he doesn't have as much money as they do. He has a lot of money, but not like that. Like. And so I think he's often wanted to monetize that podcast better than they do. And it's degenerated into. He used to run a bunch of other startup events that I really liked, actually. I thought they were very clever. They were sort of, again, jazz hands a lot. But I just feel like he just has made a trade that I don't love. And I wish you would call me because I'm like, it's fine to argue, Jason. But now even he's gotten hurt. Like, you said something and hurt me. I'm like, oh, fuck you. You know what I mean?
- [07:41]
B
Call Kara Jason. Now. I feel bad that I mentioned that you put me on the spot about recent interviews. I'm like, I mentioned the Jason one. I was like, I should have mentioned somebody who would have not triggered me.
- [07:51]
A
No, no. But he's really smart and insightful. And you know what I'd love? I'd love him to be Truman fucking Compote and write a book when it's all over, turning on all of them. I would love that because I bet he has some really good insight.
- [08:03]
B
Anybody to turn on Shamath? I'm for. So I sign up for that. But I should have mentioned E. Jean Carroll. That was my favorite interview recently, because I was worried. You never know. I didn't actually know her. I'd never met her. She is such a.
- [08:15]
A
She's a salty bitch, isn't she?
- [08:16]
B
Oh, my God. The podcast started with her listing all the people that she had had sex with, because she included that in her book. It's the best list I've ever heard. I forget what it's like, six people, but they're all famous.
- [08:27]
A
Yeah, they are. She's a salty bitch, as they say. Like, you know, kind of thing. What? Tell me you do it Daily. That's crazy.
- [08:34]
B
Yeah. Well, now you revealed yourself as not a daily listener, which is fine. My feelings aren't hurt. It's a lot of. A lot of material.
- [08:40]
A
I listen, you know where I listen to it, I listen to it on social media. Like, I listen to pieces and pieces.
- [08:45]
B
Yeah, great.
- [08:45]
A
I definitely listen to it every day because I, you know, I go, yeah.
- [08:49]
B
That'S how people consume stuff now. Yeah, no, it's every day. I think it's important, like, look, it's important for people to be in a rhythm. You guys have a rhythm.
- [08:55]
A
One of the things that people are with media is you've got to be promiscuous in a way that, you know, and in their ear and in their head because. And in genuine ways. It's a very different than a TV appearance, which you're also on because it's. You, like, this is my take. And they get to trust you. And that's the critical part of having a daily relationship. One thing you said, I want to poke on this Trump porn. Trump porn stuff. Talk about that idea. You don't want to just be endlessly reacting to this.
- [09:27]
B
Yeah, it's tough.
- [09:29]
A
I made long dong silver, short dong.
- [09:31]
B
Silver, Short dong silver. My pledge to myself after he won was like, I'm only going to get mad about what I'm mad about, and there's going to be a lot to be mad about, you know, But I'm not going to, like, if he does something that is like, you know, that I know I could do a little bit on, that would be fake or fun. I just am not going to do that because, like, a, life's too short, B, it kind of helps him, I think, think, frankly, because oftentimes those topics are things that he wants to be out there, and I just don't think it does. Listen, people that are tuning in any service to do that. So that's my thing. It's hard. Look, there's so many indignities every day, and so there's sometimes an obligation to bring up stuff that I feel like that's not getting enough attention, that's in the news. But if it just becomes, you know, one day it's like, oh, well, Trump did this thing that's horrible. The next thing he did, this other thing is horrible. The next thing he did this other thing that's horrible. And there's no. The frequency isn't any different. Right. If it's the same frequency the whole time, then, you know, everybody, you become numb to it. And so you do.
- [10:33]
A
You get Acclimated.
- [10:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I think it's important for everybody and I don't even really mean this in a political sense. Like it's important politically. I do think it's important for the Democrats to figure out ways to keep people from becoming numb to it. But I just mean in like a, now that I've, now that I'm a former Republican, I've switched sides. I can use lib terms like this now. I mean it like in a self care way. Like don't become numb to this and just have it be like, oh, every day I just wake up and I get my fix of how awful it is. No, it's like, no, today this thing is actually really fucking bad and we should be really mad about it and focused on it in a way that's different.
- [11:03]
A
I think the problem is Trump is oxygen right at this moment. He's everywhere. There's nothing. Climate change, you could do a thing. Vaccines, you could do a thing, like all kinds of things. And it's hard when you're talking about other things not to be aware of it because it's like nothing matters except this. And that's what he's done really effectively. But let's see what you get really mad about. We've got a lot to get to today, including what Ghislaine Maxwell is saying about Trump. All good things. What a surprise. And Jeffrey Epstein and Maga is melting down over the stupid cracker barrel logo. But I do think that's a much more interesting story than just the logo, which is interesting. But first, President Trump is threatening to send National Guard troops to Chicago, New York and Baltimore as part of his effort to crack down on crime. Pentagon has been planning a military deployment in Chicago for weeks now. According to the Washington Post. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker is accusing Trump of trying to, quote, manufacture a crisis. While over in Maryland, Governor Wes Moore set Trump off after inviting him to walk the streets of Baltimore. He offered a golf cart, by the way. Meanwhile, Guard troops are now carrying weapons on the streets of D.C. a Pete Hegseth directive makes me feel more unsafe as a D.C. resident. A CNN analysis of government data found a moderate drop in reported crime in D.C. during the first week of Trump's takeover. A far larger and the arrest of immigrants. Bill Maher has been talking about a slow moving coup for a while now. In his latest episode, he laid out how Trump's recent actions suggest a coup may already be underway. It's a little long, but let's listen.
- [12:29]
B
First, create a Masked police force. Get people used to looking at that, normalize snatching people off the street, get them used to that, normalize seeing the car, the National Guard and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the Capitol, which is basically, you know, has always been a fairly crime ridden city. This is our nation's capital where elections are decided. And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops, not just the national guard there in D.C. but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. So you're having many state's troops on the ground there and now they're under federal control. So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence.
- [13:22]
A
So let's talk about this. I live here. I just took my daughter to the first day of public school today. The images couldn't be different. It's a very, he's not a crime ridden city. It's actually crime has been improving, as Democrats have been pointing out. There's crime in every city. There's a lot of crime in Houston, for example. There's a lot of crime in Alabama, in the cities and wherever. It doesn't matter. Cities are like this. The second thing is this idea of people on the streets with guns. But there haven't been a lot of protests. And it's not because people think this is a good thing. I know this. I've talked to lots and lots of people. There's been a real icing of the workforce around ice, people not coming to work. I just talked to someone who works, does some yard work for me. They can't come because of ice, because they're worried, their workers are worried, shutdown of restaurants, et cetera. Talk a little bit about this because, you know, and then the threats to go to Chicago, to Baltimore, to New York, obviously Zoran Mandani wins, for example.
- [14:24]
B
Yeah, I like that Bill Maher. I felt like he was kind of lecturing people about or he was mad that people were mad at him for going to visit Trump earlier. And it's like this is why he's like consolidating power. And it's important to just be clear about what it is, what he's trying to do. And to me, the thing about this that makes me the most upset is this combination of this kind of state military theater with the actual masked thugs hassling people that are here, sometimes illegally, sometimes not. And they went and they tear gassed that guy and banged through his window. In California, who was a US Citizen, George Reddes. And so he's now gonna be able to sue. But this is what they're doing, right? Like, it is. They're acting with impunity. And the imagery of it feels very un American. And it's just. It's wrong. It's like not. It feels like it's in a banana republic. It's like what we have, we've got these new trucks now with Daddy Trump's name on it. And, you know, like, people are walking through the streets in the military uniforms and then they're jumping out of unmarked cars with masks. Like, that's not how things should. That's not what this country should be about. People should be outraged and pushing back on it. And I think that, to Bill's point, there's this slow burn element of it, about getting people used to it that I think is really alarming. So we'll kind of see how this stuff continues on to Chicago and Maryland and what else they decided to do in New York, maybe Baltimore, Chicago. But, like, he's not being subtle about it and it's important, I think, at each lever. That's why I was happy to see what Wes Moore was doing this weekend to stop and say, this is no, we're gonna push back on this now because otherwise it just becomes a creep where he's able to do more and.
- [16:15]
A
More these cities have an ability to do, although LA had mixed ability to do it. Now, DC is a unique entity because it's also a federal center and they don't have states rights. There's no voting. Our representative happens to be out of it, actually. So you're not hearing from her. It's a unique situation here in the other states. It's gonna be harder to try this, to try these numbers. But how do you. Why aren't there more crackdowns and especially these visual images of either people being taken off the street, like on moped and things like that, or everyone has a story here. People are not. I don't quite know what to do. Right. What do you do? You go yell at these people. Okay. That doesn't really have an effect. What is the response beside in cities, I could see them pushing back on Trump, but not D.C. yeah.
- [17:10]
B
No, look, a. The response from Democratic leaders is that they have to say no and not. We're going to work with you on this. Right. And that was. I mean, Bowser did again, the DC thing is a little bit different. It's a little bit complicated. But when you get to these other cities, you know, say no and they have to have showdowns over states rights. I mean, like, this was like, J.D. vance was on the shows over the weekend where he's talking about how this question of the red state national guards coming to D.C. and how he's like, well, this is our system. We have states rights. If the Republican governors want to send US Troops to suck up to Trump, then like, oh, well, we'll just do that. But that's not how it works. And there's another blue states and even purple states that have Democratic governors. Right. You notice Philly isn't on the list. Josh Shapiro is there. Detroit, Gretchen Whitmer. Like, what? Eventually, you know, you get a showdown in these places. But I think that's important. I think it's important. I think that the protesting is important itself. It's important for people to call their leaders. Look, I think a lot of people feel like, oh, the pushback has been limp. And I get that. I feel that way as well. There are things I wish people were doing more of. But a part of that I think is because people feel like the pushback is hopeless, is not with point. Because Trump has total power in D.C. and he has total power of Congress. But I point to the immigration thing in El Salvador as a prime example of how pushing back on legal, political and action on the streets grounds can slow them down. Their initial plan was to send lots of people to that El Salvador prison. But they initially sent the three planes. There was immediately pushback, political, legal, people in the streets, and the courts slowed them down. And what ended up happening? About a couple weeks ago now, the Venezuelans that they had sent there got sent back to Venezuela. No more planes have gone to El Salvador. No more people have been sent there. And like, that is an example of resisting the administration that isn't maybe that satisfactory. Cause it's not like a win.
- [19:01]
A
It's going to try everything.
- [19:02]
B
Yeah, but it slowed them down on that vertical. They got to do this. You got to do the same thing across all these other verticals.
- [19:07]
A
The slowdown, the idea of slowdown. You've heard about the white ladies putting Mexican flags on their cars to get ICE to stop. I like that people are making fun of it. It's like, why it's wasting their time. And then the white ladies can chat away with them for the longest time. And like, that's six hours. Like, I could talk to an ICE person for six hours and be difficult, but not arrestably difficult. You know what I mean? Like, kind of, why are you doing this? What's happening? What's your name? How are you doing? Like, irritating in the way only white ladies can do it.
- [19:34]
B
Well, they should. You should irritate the local politicians. Look, am I thinking like, so here in Louisiana, I live in New Orleans now and so they sent 135 National Guard troops to D.C. to guard the Shake Shack or whatever. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Even Republicans in Louisiana should be calling their legislators and the governor and annoying them about this, saying, like, these are people with lives. Like, these are 135 people that have real jobs, that have families they're in back to school. Like they've been sent away from their kids to fucking sit outside the Georgetown cupcake. Like, this is. It's ridiculous. It's preposterous. And like. And shining light on how ridiculous it is is an important end and wasting money.
- [20:13]
A
Yeah. Is there any pluses for the Trump administration doing this? Like, crime is bad because people do out from outside cities all think crime is like the whole San Francisco narrative was so bullshit. There was problems. They're starting to really fix them. The city is very vibrant now. It's just the cycle, right? The COVID cycle, the people moving out, et cetera, et cetera and the more. But they're aiming at homeless people, which is really interesting here in D.C. and elsewhere, as if that's really the actual problem.
- [20:43]
B
I think it helps. Look, I think that there are people like Matt Iglesias expresses this view that's bad for Democrats anytime to be talking about crime and immigration, because if crime and immigration are in the news, that's good for Trump, because those are issues that are good for Trump. And I take point. I think that you have to be clear eyed about how the fact that there is a political benefit to what they're doing. They're good at picking enemies. Kilmore Garcia is not that particularly sympathetic as a person. Like John Bolton is in particular as a person in different ways. But I think that finding the most extreme examples and winning the fight on those grounds is better than ignoring it. If you're a Democrat and moving on. This happened in the first term on child separation. His numbers tanked on it and they had to backtrack track on it. That was a worthwhile immigration fight. Is fighting over border security worthwhile? No, probably not. Similarly, on crime is pushing back on some of what they're doing on crime and cleaning up cities. That's not my cup of tea. Is pushing back on it worthwhile? Maybe not politically speaking, activists or individuals can, but the Democrats should push back on masked Guys jumping out of unmarked cars and tackling doordash drivers. Nobody's for that. And I was listening over the weekend, do you know Tim Dillon? He's like a comedian, mad comedian and Joe Rogan. Yeah, I was listening to Tim Dillon show over the weekend and he's like, if you're a libertarian minded Republican, don't tread on me, Republican guy. You can win those guys over with this. He's looking at this. He's going, what Trump is doing is everything Alex Jones warned about is what he was saying. It's like we're giving Palantir our information. We've got masks, we're militarizing the streets, we've got masked cops going after people without due process. This is a big government security state. If, if framed correctly, I think Democrats could use it. Right?
- [22:30]
A
Yeah. As you know, every accusation is a confession with these people. So the Trump administration, let's move on. Another thing they're grappling with. The administration has released transcripts and audio from the DOJ's recent interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associates and convicted sexual offense sex offender. In an interview, Maxwell, who is seeking a pardon, praised Donald Trump. What a surprise. And also downplayed his involvement in Epstein's activities. What a surprise. Let's listen to what this heinous bitch said. I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody in the times that I was with him. He was a gentleman in all respects. So said the pedophile. Maxwell also denied the existence of a client list and dismissed a number of Epstein's theories and allegations. Also rather kind to Epstein. He can rot in hell. She did, however, say she doesn't believe Epstein died by suicide in prison. Honestly, why are we listening to the. I'm sorry, she's a heinous bitch. Why are we listening to her? Will it appease the MAGA folks? And what do you make of the timing? The DOJ also gave Congress thousands of Epstein documents, though Democrats are pointing out the majority of these documents were already public. They're trying to sort of slow roll the thing. A posthumous end quote unsparing memoir by Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre, who died by suicide in April, is coming out in this. And also some of the victims are now have fucking had it with this again. Hb Heinous bitch.
- [24:01]
B
No need to apologize for saying heinous bitch. We can say that again now. Was that what I heard after the election that those words are allowed again.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. Okay, good. I can say whatever I want about her. So anyway, I'm hoping Elizabeth Holmes smacks her a little bit. They're in the same prison, I guess talk a little bit about this and where it's going. I still think it's got a lot of legs, this, this story. I don't know. I feel like it does.
- [24:25]
B
I, I do laugh at hear her having, hearing her call Trump. He was a gentleman in every respect. Like, even Trump's friends don't think he's a gentleman. Even Trump wouldn't describe himself as a gentleman, I don't think.
- [24:35]
A
Right.
- [24:35]
B
And it's just, it's so, you know, fucking preposterous. No, she's all. And she's awful. It's like important to just say that like. And she was involved in the sex crimes, like a, some of these reports. Like she was there in the room when it was actually happening. So I can't.
- [24:50]
A
She wasn't participating in it.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. And she was bullying, intimidating these women. They were, they were in a quasi sett. Sex slavery with him essentially saying where she was, you know, saying, oh, you know, you're not going to get, you know, there would be financial pressure she'd put over them or access or threats. So. And she is as, as bad as they get and a liar and totally unreliable in all these cases. Her only effort here is to get a pardon. I don't, I don't think anything really comes out of this. I think it's, it maybe should be used against Trump politically. The fact that she's been sent to a Club Fed is the only sex offender in the entire prison system. And such, such a nice prison with Elizabeth Holmes. And so I think there's maybe some political juice there. Not a ton. But there's something, I think that, to me, the potential story here is that there is an actual traditional cover up. Right. Like a lot of Trump's other behavior is sui generis. It's just Trump, he's doing stuff that hasn't really happened before. It's different people like his crypto scheme. It's like, what. There's not a history of this type of scandal for folks to connect to. That's not the case here. This is just a straight cover up that many other politicians have done. They have a list of all the times Trump has mentioned these files. They've admitted it. They said there's a Microsoft share file with the FBI agents that went through and marked his name. So this exists somewhere, a file of where Trump is in there and they don't wanna release it and they're not going to. They're gonna cover it up to protect the boss. That's just a straight cover up story. And I think that I asked Hakeem Jeffries about this when he was on the pod the other week and I was like, so will you have a special committee on that? This if you get back into the leadership? And he kind of said yes. He wouldn't commit to exactly. To a special committee, but he said we will and be investigating this. And I think they can now then just do again a straight old school cover up investigation. They can subpoena the FBI agents that were involved in this. What Bondi did, what she briefed Trump on and who knows where that could lead. And so the example I always use of this is all those Benghazi oversight hearings in this weird convoluted way. The Benghazi hearing led to the Hillary email series surfer. So you don't exactly know what will come from oversight. And so I think if the Democrats are willing to actually do it, if they will first, if they win in the midterms and then if they're actually to do it, this is a story that we'll be talking about in August of 2027.
- [27:16]
A
Yeah, they're trying to push it down and they didn't push down very easily. I don't think this guy continues to resurface. Epstein, he's like the corpse that wouldn't be buried, essentially, you know, and he keeps showing up in some fashion. I think the Ghislaine Maxwell, I know a lot of them are saying Trump is clean. Like Jim Jordan, who's good at defending pedophiles and covering up for them, would say he's not clean by any stretch of the imagination at all. Because this lady says it not. So one photograph, one another accuser. That's all it's gonna take to really revive this. Cause it really does animate the right in ways that it didn't animate the left by the. It doesn't animate liberals, this story.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah. And I think that was because the right got animated by it. The pretense was kind of like this concerned about child sex trafficking. And there are some, obviously there are people on the right who are generally concerned about child predation. And but I think that why it sort of like, you know, tickled their, you know, the lizard part of their brain was the death side. It was like the conspiracy side of it is like, oh, was there a deep state effort to protect whoever, the Clintons, you know, you name it, like whoever. And that plot side of it is what elevated the story from what would have been a very serious, no doubt real story with real victims and all that, to something that had this life of its own on the right. And I think that for that same reason now there's not really a conspiracy, but a cover up that I think will animate the left that kind of gets locked onto the more straightforward story about what they were doing to these young girls.
- [28:57]
A
Right. That's a really good point. That will be the thing. This, you know, there are attempts at slow rolling it and they still fight among each other with Laura Loomer still calling Pam Bondi Blondie, et cetera. I suspect this is still gonna keep going with this guy. Okay, Tim, let's go on a quick break. We come back Trump makes a deal with Intel Support for Pivot comes from Indeed. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. So how can you find amazing candidates? Fast, fast, easy. With the help of Indeed, Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out from the crowd and connect with the right person in record time. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. And when you look at the numbers, they say it makes a big difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Their data also says that in the past minute alone, 2,300 were made on Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@inn Indeed.com pivot just go to indeed.com pivot right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com pivot terms and conditions apply. Hire Hiring Indeed is all you need. As a founder, you're moving fast towards product, market, fit, your next round or your first big enterprise deal.
- [30:33]
B
But with AI accelerating how quickly startups.
- [30:36]
A
Build and ship, security expectations are also coming in faster and those expectations are higher than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long. Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate security and compliance across more than 35 frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more. With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams, Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure and customers evolve. That's why fast growing startups like LangChain, Rider and Cursor have all trusted Vanta to build a Scalable compliance foundation foundation from the start. Go to vanta.com Vox to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's V A n t a dot com Vox to save $1,000 for a limited time. Support for the show comes from Framer. Kids today, they never understand what we went through back in the day. Building a website for instance, used to be a lot of time and a lot of money, so you only did it if you could afford the overhead and really needed it. Nowadays there are incredible tools like Framer that can build the website of your dreams fast. No coding required. Framer is a design first, no code website builder that lets anyone ship a product ready site in minutes. That means you have the freedom to build a website that is professional, polished and uniquely yours. No code and no compromises. Built in AI will handle the heavy lifting. By generating starter layout layouts and then coding behind the scenes, you'll be able to a b test your design, set up funnels, see exactly where people click, all from one place. Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free@framer.com and use the code pivot to get your first month of pro on the house. That's framert.com promo code pivot framert.com promo code pivot rules and restrictions apply. Tim, we're back. The US government is taking a 10% stake in intel with Trump calling it a quote, great deal for America and a great deal for intel. Under the agreement, $8.9 billion in unpaid chip act grants will be converted into equity, making the government Intel's largest shareholder but without board seats or governance rights. It's a turnaround from a few weeks ago when Trump was calling for Intel CEO to resign over ties to China. Intel move also comes on the heels of Nvidia and AMD agree to hand over 15% of their China chip sale revenues to the government. Not clear whether they should be selling chips to China. There's also that quote golden share in US Steel Senator Rand Paul called the intel deal a step towards socialism. I oddly enough agreed with Senator Rand Paul. Industrial policy is not my favorite thing. Even the Washington Post and also the Wall Street Journal, but the Washington Post editorial board came out against it, saying the United States should not be trying to beat China by becoming China. You know, aoc, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders wish they could much control over companies. Right. And Mark Cuban.
- [33:47]
B
Bernie endorsed it actually.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course. And Mark Cuban said it's just a wealth tax in a different way. Right. They're taking money as part of it. I'm like, I thought the government should have not done the giveaways to car companies or banks. I thought they should have taken a piece of Tesla and then sold it back and made money on it for the US there's nothing wrong with it, but industrial policy in general is always a bad idea in a capitalist and vibrant economy. Thoughts about this and how it shakes out?
- [34:20]
B
I'm curious to your thoughts on the tech side. I'll just give because this is also a little bit outside my wheelhouse. But obviously there is the cheap but true political observation of the MAGA socialism. It's okay if Trump doesn't. We're going to panic about the five city run grocery stores in New York. We're going to let the government take over a 10% stake in a major company. So there's the obvious hypocrisy on its face there. And it's kind of funny, I think back to my heyday as a Republican when back 10, 15 years ago there was this big controversy on the right over the Ex IM Bank, a federal bank providing loans and how that was, oh, government picking winners and losers and crony capitalism. And here we are literally taking a stake in the company now. So I mean I think that is the outrageous, the thing that worries me about it more than the actual, than the substance of what's happening with intel is like it is another lever for him to use power to bully kind of, who knows, right. Other people. Right. And so whether that be intel customers, competitors right now. So it's like, well, we aren't going to take a stake. We're not going to take a. We're not or excuse me, we're not going to have a governing responsibility in the company. But the government now still has an interest in this doing well. And Trump does. Trump has an emotional interest. He's posting about how the stuff stocks up and how that's good and how's the sign that's good. And so like the downstream effects of that is something that is not like all the way to China but, but has some of that flavor where like the government can start to intimidate certain.
- [35:51]
A
Other companies and decide which are the national winners. Right. Like, but except you don't Want the government in your business, essentially. And one of the issues is Intel's been suffering for years and years. Lack of innovation, bad management, et cetera. You know, for a very long time, very used to be the dominant chip maker and then just got fell by the wayside. So there is an argument made for, like, helping US Companies in the chip area, largely for national security.
- [36:16]
B
There's the CHIPS Act. That was gonna be.
- [36:18]
A
Yes, exactly. But the issue is it's not gonna make them more innovative by having the government investment. It's just gonna prop them up. Right. And the problems with intel run a lot deeper, that maybe they should go out of business, maybe they should restructure. Maybe they should. We shouldn't have the government deciding to keep them on life support. Right. It's not life support, but it's just been. It's been sucking for many CEOs. And so the natural thing is let it die. And then something else comes up. The problem is our chip manufacturers are weaker and they're stronger in Taiwan and China and elsewhere. And so just the fact that governments makes choices like this, they shouldn't. What they should do is provide research money for all kinds of things. They should provide encouragement and innovative grants to help people start businesses of all kinds. Those are fine by me.
- [37:09]
B
I'm fine with manufacturing money. Right. Like, we want to make sure that they have, you know, loan guarantees to build plants. So, you know, if, like, there's a reason interest rates are high right now. So, like, it's. It's in the national interest that we're building chip plants. Companies don't want to do, take the risks. The government backstops that. It's not like my ideal free market system, but that, that's like a defensible.
- [37:30]
A
Thing for this particular market, but it's just a hop, skip and jump to other markets. Right? Like, let's own this, let's own that.
- [37:37]
B
Well, they said that Kevin Hassett is on CNBC this morning saying now we might start to take check chips and stakes in other companies. And again, this is the thing. This is the bullying part. This is the authoritarian part, where it's like, oh, if you're another company that took money from the CHIPS act or from the ira, maybe those were good decisions, maybe they're bad decisions. I think that there was probably a bunch of wasted money in both of those bills, by the way. But the companies then, at that point that made that decision should not now be worried that, oh, I can't do anything, say anything that might upset Trump. I can't go on TV and have grandpa watching his stories, see that I'm critical of some policy or else they might try to take over a stake in the company.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah, it's very meddlesome in a way that's not anti capitalist. I can see them in their room. I can see this. Especially that dumbass Howard Lutnick. Like, we should have gotten a piece of Tesla. We should have gotten a piece of this. But they are bad business. Howard Lutnick is not a bad business person. Trump is arguably.
- [38:29]
B
Are you sure he's not a bad business person? He seems very stupid.
- [38:33]
A
Listen, he was sort of the discount guy on Wall Street. When you talk to Wall street people, they say he built a big business, but what an idiot. I think that's usually what you. But it was like a business nobody want. They were like, oh, that guy's business. Like, sort of like Crazy Eddie. Like, remember Crazy Eddie a long time ago. Of course it went bankrupt, that business. I think people don't love Howard Lutnick on Wall Street. They don't have much respect for him. That said, Trump has. He actually has built a business that has lasted. And Trump, of course, has run the. This is the idea of real estate dealers, real estate people running the government. Like, ah, what can I get? What can I get? Like, what's the vig? And so it feels mobstery. It feels like, you know, corrupt. It feels meddlesome and it creates, you know, the fact that Tim Cook has to give a gold statue to Trump is a bad thing. Even if he's doing it for shareholders. It means we live in a banana republic. That's what it means. And so it's never good.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah. And the whole thing is, I laugh at, like, how those guys are all like. And I shared some of the critiques of woke identity politics in corporate America, but it was funny that it was like Cook kind of gave him a woke. Right statue. It felt important for him to say in the presentation. It was like, this was made by a. This was made by a MAGA Republican. Veteran.
- [39:54]
A
Veteran.
- [39:55]
B
You can imagine the inverse where Tim Cook comes into Kamala is like, here's a statue made by an indigenous bisexual. Like, we felt like we needed to do that. They felt like he had to do the whole identity. Right. Punishment politics stuff too. The whole thing was very gross.
- [40:09]
A
Unnatural acts. They're letting people who should be running their companies do unnatural acts. And it is bad for shareholders in the end. It's not. Even if they're doing it to help shareholders so they don't get a bigger tariff. It's an unnatural act. Tim, stop doing unnatural acts.
- [40:24]
B
Can I ask you one nationalization thing? Because I'm a passionate capitalist.
- [40:30]
A
Me too.
- [40:31]
B
There's one moment there's been one issue kind of in this realm that has tickled my socialist pickle, which was the idea that maybe we need to nationalize SpaceX. Is that sort of related to this? That's like kind of a different conversation where that is security interest. No.
- [40:47]
A
Maybe they should be working hand in glove. I mean, I think the issue is NASA sort of got out of control in terms of bureaucratic and not innovative. The only thing is when you're a government agency, you can't make mistakes the way SpaceX can. And the minute you nationalize it, it can't blow up rockets. And as much as it seems like a failure to blow up rockets, the way you get to places or get to better innovation is by taking risks. And if you're a government agency, you cannot take risks by the definition of a government agency. So I see that they have to be working very closely with. This is the kind of close relationships.
- [41:21]
B
Not really a free market though. You can't have unlimited companies in space. It's kind of like how NBA team ownership is not a real free market. Right?
- [41:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. I just don't. I feel like they have brought the cost down because they're not a government. There's no reason to doubt.
- [41:36]
B
But I don't know.
- [41:37]
A
There's no interest in the government to making things cheaper.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah. Crazy Elon having that much control over the.
- [41:43]
A
He does. That's one of the worries. Of course. I suspect that's what they're worried about is you got. It's like a bond bill and essentially running critical infrastructure. Same thing with chips. We have to have a real chip policy and this ain't it. Speaking of something that seems troubling, FBI agents raided the home and office of former Trump national security John Bolton on Friday. The Trump critic is a subject of national security investigation and search of classified records. Vice President J.D. vance says the raid definitely doesn't have anything to do with Bolton's criticism of Trump, which means it does, or rather stems from a quote, broad concern about the, about Ambassador Bolton. You know, the Wall Street Journal's against this. Everyone's against this. Like doing, you know, I think what they're doing is what they thought was done to them. So if they didn't like it done to them, why are they doing it to others? Very retribution, revenge. She just threatene Christie. I think today or yesterday.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah. Starting to jail. Chris Christie, too. Yeah. The Wall Street Journal editorial board has kind of cracked me up since. They've been very Trump friendly. They talked about how one of the concerns of him coming back was that he'd run vendettas. And they wrote, quote, it's turning out to be worse than we imagined. It's like, no, you don't say, not me. Actually, it's going bright just about exactly how we told you it was going to go. Not any worse. The Bolton thing. I just think it's important to say this because it's obviously propounding preposterous that this is not a political attack. But if you just replace John Bolton with Mark Meadows or Corey Lewis, I imagine it was somebody from the Trump first term that wrote a book that. Who is still in good graces with Trump. And the accusations that there were classified materials in that book that was written five years ago. There's no imaginable world in which the FBI is raiding the home of a Trump 1.0 cabinet member who is still an ally. Nobody could imagine that if there were a legitimate concern that he had some classified materials they shouldn't have. Like, there's a process for this sort of thing. FBI calls DOJ's lawyers, call their lawyers. You set up a meeting. So this was purely to either hassle or intimidate.
- [43:45]
A
It feels like prosecutorial overreach. Right. That's just the thing that Trump complained about. And it does. I think it brings up what Trump did. Like, again, like, you did it.
- [43:54]
B
This is, well, the Trump example. It's important to just explain the differences. Like in the Mar A Lago raid. Raid, which I would listen to the idea that maybe that could have been handled in a less aggressive way, but it's not comparable to the Bolton situation, the Mar A Lager raid, the archivist or whatever said that Trump brought some materials that are the property of the United States. They shouldn't have. They asked for a meeting, denied. Then they provided a list of what the materials were. Trump lied and said that it wasn't there. They tried to move some of the materials, materials to a different place. So Trump was obstructing the effort to do this in the good faith way that this is generally done. And that's why the raid happened. That was not the case with John Bolton. They just showed up at his house, I think, because the statute of limitations, I suspect, is running out on the stuff from the first term, which would be five years now. And they did so just to intimidate him. Panvondi puts out a tweet about it. I don't have it in front of me. But something like our national security comes first. It's like nobody thinks that America's security was a threat because of whatever John Bolton has in his house. And I think that it ties to the intel thing. The thing that worries me about everything is eventually and ties to the Bill Maher thing at the top. Slowly but surely, people just decide it's not worth the hassle. You get into authoritarianism not through violent coup necessary but by slow burn towards everyone deciding, I'm going to go bring him a trophy to keep them happy. I'm not going to say anything wrong because I don't want the FBI to come after me. And eventually you consolidate power. And that's closer to what you've seen in Hungary and other places.
- [45:38]
A
Yeah, well known centers of innovation.
- [45:41]
B
Hungary. Exactly. Economy's really thriving in Hungary. Turkey. We want the Turkey model for our country.
- [45:47]
A
The Turkey model. Anyway, we'll see what happens with this. I suspect it'll peter out. They have such little follow through, but they do cause damage. What they do, they're like toddlers. They come in, cause damage and little follow through. All right, Tim, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, cracker barrel makes an enemy of the right. Support for pivot comes from Groons. If you've ever done a deep Internet dive trying to discover different nutrition solutions, you've likely had the thought, surely there's a way to improve my skin, gut health immunity, brain fog without offending my taste buds. Well, there is. It's called Groons. Groons are a convenient comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some for a fraction of the price. In a Groons daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, plus more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient dense and whole foods, all of which will help help you out in different ways. For example, Groons has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and niacinamide, which helps with thicker hair, nails and skin health. They also contain mushrooms which can help with brain function. And of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how great it's for your immune system. On top of all, Groons are vegan and free of dairy. Nuts and gluten get up to 52% off. When you go to Gruns Co and use the code pivot, that's G R U N S C O Using the code pivot for 52% off. Support for the show comes from Smartsheet. Okay, be honest. How many times today did a DM or email send you on some wild goose chase when you should have been focusing on being productive? No matter how many times you were distracted by today, you don't have to be embarrassed. It's okay. We all do it. But just because we all do it doesn't mean we have to all do it. Smartsheet knows how easy it is to get distracted. They know how easily opening a new window to start a work task can turn into a series of rabbit holes, work related and otherwise. And that's exactly why Smartsheet designed a seamless all in one platform that allows you to flow between tasks. Smartsheet customers know that Smartsheet is a distraction free zone.
- [48:13]
B
Smartsheet work with flow. Learn more@smartsheet.com Vox.
- [48:21]
A
The pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. Crafted with our signature espresso and real pumpkin sauce, then topped with whipped cream, cinnamon and nutmeg. The psl get it while it's hot or iced. Only at Starbucks. Kim, we're back with more news. Please make sure you're seated for this next emotional topic. Cracker Barrel's logo change. The chain has removed the barrel and the man from its logo and conservatives are horrified. Change is hard. Conservatives. Cracker Barrel Stock was down 12% in the last five days at the time of taping. Like, I haven't been in a Cracker Barrel because they're so anti gay. Right? That's what I remember.
- [49:03]
B
No, they did a. Obviously you don't remember their effort to appeal to you a couple years ago. They, they did a rainbow rocking chair outside during Pride month a couple years ago.
- [49:12]
A
Whatever. You know, this is ridiculous. This is like it's just a logo change. And the old man seems like old. Like for. They want young people to come. That's my presumption is they've got too many old people in the place and they need a new. They need a new demo. It makes sense from again, meddling in the business. Like, if they want to get rid of the old fucking man, they should get rid of the old man. And the fact that they're all horrified. Like, they're so. They're so censorious. The Right when they accuse others of being censorious and you know they'll either live or die. By the stock going down, and maybe they'll put the man back or whatever. But it's just. I don't.
- [49:48]
B
I've got to take a contrary view to you on this one. Are you ready to fight over Cracker Barrel?
- [49:52]
A
Yeah.
- [49:53]
B
The logo. The new logo is awesome.
- [49:54]
A
When's the last time you went, oh, it's an ugly logo? Correct.
- [49:57]
B
It's an ugly. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't been in years. We just every once in a while, I'd go, I think on the drive from D.C. to the beach, there's a Cracker Barrel somewhere. But that was many years ago now, so I haven't been in a while. So I don't actually have any personal stake or care about this, but I do, just as an objective observer of the world. The new logo is awful. The picture that they put out of the new inside of the Cracker Barrel, which is more minimalist or whatever, is also awful. And it is part of a broader corporate trend where every logo has to be minimalist now. And every store needs to have clean lines. And we need diversity of views. You need diversity of experiences. Like the human species. Spirit yearns for different types of. We don't all want Scandinavian clean lines. Some places call for Scandinavian line.
- [50:41]
A
They probably realize most of their clients are about to die.
- [50:44]
B
You think new people are going to come in, though, because they want to make it look more like Applebee's? I don't think that, like, the millennials I know are like, I'm excited now that we're. They're changing it from the old man, old Southern view to a more of a modern Applebee's aesthetic.
- [50:57]
A
I think at some point you have to change. It's like, it's. But again, this is. Again, it's up to the company if they want to do this. And they'll either live or die by it. Right. That's my whole thing.
- [51:05]
B
I agree with that.
- [51:06]
A
I suspect they're looking at the numbers and they're like, all the old people. We don't have any young. They probably know exactly who's coming into their restaurants. And young people are not coming into the Cracker Barrel. They're just not. And, you know, the name itself could probably be changed. Cracker Barrel. Like, who. What is a Cracker Barrel?
- [51:22]
B
Honky Barrel.
- [51:23]
A
Honky Barrel. You know, I kind of like what they're doing in Hooters. They're going though.
- [51:27]
B
You'd be, what are they doing in Hooters? I know nothing about it.
- [51:29]
A
They're going back to cheesy and Booby and, like, wings. I'm vaguely offended by Hooters. I don't care. Like, if people want to go to those stupid places and they pay those people enough. I don't know what to say. I think it's gross. But whatever. People, if you want to go to. You know that and you want to. By the way, all the Hooters waitresses, in my experience, have been fan fucking tastic people. And they know the whole fucking deal with the guys leering their breasts, which is like their toddlers looking at them. But there was a great story again. Guy who was it who talked about going to Hooters.
- [52:02]
B
Yeah. His Twitter name is Peter Twinklage.
- [52:05]
A
Yeah, Great story of going to Hooters and the Hooter waitress helping this guy out. And she knew he was gay, right? The father didn't. Of course the father did, because that's why he dragged his sorry ass there. But I kind of like that they're going back to it, because I thought Hooters just be Hooters. And if they do a nice job of it and the wings are good, I'm fine with it. I just think this is a company much like, oh, there's probably a bunch of them facing real secular change in their usage. So they must have studied this. And the people that are being noisy are all the old folk, I guess.
- [52:39]
B
I don't. Sometimes, though, you can overstudy stuff. It's like, I feel this way about political ads. Or it's like, you know, I'll be in a meeting where, you know, where a super PAC will be like, we decided to do this ad because we tested it. And I'm like, most of these tests are so dumb. It's people that are, like, playing video games or something, and then they show the ad during the commercial break, and then you have to say whether you like it or not. And it's like, people don't know themselves. We're trusting this. Like, they're just trying to get through the ad. A lot of these corporate testing things, there's a lot of hooey. Fooey. Can I give you one admission since you've admitted the Hooters come clean on your support for original Hooters. The cracker barrel thing for me is tied to the new Oval office design, and I like the new oval office design, just like I like the old cracker barrel, because I think more is more. I don't. This whole minimalist WASP Northeast.
- [53:32]
A
Oh, that was really minimalist.
- [53:33]
B
Pro Hooters, pro Liberace, Oval Office, pro Original Cracker Barrel.
- [53:38]
A
That's where I'm like, he's not pro Liberace. Come on.
- [53:41]
B
Well, the Oval Office has a Liberace aesthetic now, I think.
- [53:44]
A
Oh, it does.
- [53:44]
B
Which I like.
- [53:45]
A
But it's okay with. As a gay man, I don't. I think. I didn't like. When I saw the comparison, I was like, look how awful. I'm like, the first one was kind of dull. The Biden one, drab. Right. And you know, I like a. Like, listen, Showgirls is about to have its 50th anniversary or whatever, and I'm up for anything like that. I like excess. It's too much over here now. There's way too much fucking gold. Like, gold is best if you ever saw that apple thing. So I think it's too much. There should be pomp and circumstance, but there's way too much of that.
- [54:16]
B
It's a little Oudin cousin. It's a little much. It wouldn't be my preferred aesthetic, but it is definitely an upgrade. When you look at the comparisons, the grayskin.
- [54:23]
A
What else would you put in there? What would your Oval Office this look like?
- [54:26]
B
That's not really in the cards. I don't think I know, but I don't know. Yeah, I mean, kind of like the bird cage. I don't know. I don't know.
- [54:36]
A
Like gay. Gay.
- [54:37]
B
Yeah. Well, gay, yeah. It combine all of my conflicting interests. You know, we might have a Reagan portrait, but also a lot of gay stuff that would live in conflict together. Maybe just Nancy.
- [54:46]
A
You know who I'd design it? You know, Ken Falk. He's a San Francisco designer. Yeah. Everything he does is just a little loose. But I love it. Like, you know, it's just a little bit too much velvet and stuff like that. There's an occasional dead animal on the wall. I kind of love it. I love it looks.
- [55:02]
B
I like wallpapers.
- [55:03]
A
I also like the Nancy Myers aesthetic. That is kind of a nice one. Do you know, you know the director? Those houses that Diane Keaton always lives in, Those are nice. Maybe dull.
- [55:12]
B
They're a little dull. That's not really. For me, that might be triggered. It might be this little suburban kind of triggered by my suburban upbringing. I don't want anything like the 90s suburb Bourbon, like, Tuscan aesthetic, anything like that. Is that I have a natural physical revulsion, too.
- [55:27]
A
Yeah. I think I would do more funny stuff. More color. I like a lot of color.
- [55:32]
B
Same.
- [55:32]
A
Anyway, I think they should have kept the barrel, gotten rid of the old man. The barrel Needs to be there. And there should be crackers. All right, last thing. Elon Musk's ex has reached a tentative agreement to settle a lawsuit filed by former Twitter employees who say they are owed $500 million in severance. Musk fired around 6,000 employees after acquiring Twitter, and of course, he didn't pay them. In other Musk news, he also asked Mark Zuckerberg to help him finance a $97 billion takeover. OpenAI, in early 2025, according to court filings. In a case between Musk and OpenAI. Obviously didn't happen, thank God, but Mark sees it coming.
- [56:07]
B
Thank God, I guess. Isn't that. Isn't this kind of like an Iran Iraq war situation? Who are you rooting for in Altman? Dr. Burke?
- [56:14]
A
The bullets is what Scott says. You're rooting for the Bullets. You know this. I know a little bit about this payment, and I'll just say really briefly. I've met with a lot of the people who they owe money to. And look, if you want to fire people, Elon, that's fine. That's your business. But pay them what they're owed. That's it. That's. It Just makes you like an asshole not to pay them their severance, even if you don't like what they did before. That was the agreement they were taking over. As to his OpenAI, just stop. You know, Sam Altman is not interested in you, so stop bothering that company. You walked yourself out of there like an idiot when you were there from the beginning because of your ego and your need for control. You don't have it. Just try to make a good company on your own. That's my feeling.
- [56:58]
B
I don't have any thoughts on the Twitter filings, so I agree with everything you said. While we're admitting to bad opinions that we have about aesthetics, I also kind of like the Zuckerberg fuckboy rebrand. I think that that's been good for him. So I support that kind of. I mean, the gold chain and the. What are they. What are the kids calling it? The lettuce hair.
- [57:17]
A
Yeah. Okay. Would you go out with him? Do you think he's attractive?
- [57:21]
B
Not really. For. Well, not really for me. No, I don't think so. I guess I had to pick between him and Altman. I probably originally would have said Sam Altman, but I don't know. Sam's recent interviews are pretty creepy. He's starting to move into the Uncanny Valley for me a little bit.
- [57:35]
A
Oh, interesting. How so? Tell me. Explain.
- [57:38]
B
I don't know. I just like the. I get him in my TikTok a lot. It's kind of how you're consuming me. He does all these podcast interviews where he's talking about what we want future OpenAI. Did you see a Steo Vaughn interview? And he's. His projections about what is coming and how people are just going to have to get used to a world where they're robot humans walking around on the street everywhere and where a lot of people's real friends are computer friends and where he's just. The whole thing is getting a little creepy for me and he seems to kind of be leaning into that. He. And I just think I'm misaligned with him for what I would like to see an AI future look like.
- [58:23]
A
It's just one man's opinion, for one.
- [58:25]
B
Well, it's an important man's opinion, kind of. Yeah.
- [58:27]
A
But there's been. OpenAI's have come and gone. Like, I don't mean to be rude, but, like, remember, Yahoo was huge and then it wasn't like these things. And they are definitely in a more precarious position. They're either Netscape or they're Google. Right. That said, Google didn't run the. On everything eventually. And even they struggled at various times. I feel like, look, he wants to. He's sort of styling himself like Steve Jobs. So he's trying to say important, controversial things. And so nobody is Steve Jobs, but everyone's trying to grab that mantle and there will be not another one like that. And so that's what you're hearing.
- [59:00]
B
What's your alarm level? And all that stuff on these guys, these egomaniacs deciding what our AI future is going to look like.
- [59:07]
A
We've already seen what. What happened, so we're going to see this. I think the government in this case needs to be much more involved with guidance guardrails and regulations. As you know, I don't like a small group of people, not diverse in any way, making decisions for the rest of us. That's all. Just like I didn't. You know, as much as I like Train Daddy on the Gilded Age, they decided where the roads went, they decided where the things went. And our whole country has to live in the reality they create. And I'm not so pleased with that either. Although I like Train Daddy quite a bit.
- [59:40]
B
Oddly enough, I don't have any takes on Train Daddy, but I'll learn about it.
- [59:44]
A
You need to watch the Gilded Age, because all the gays love Train Daddy. Just so you know, he's really great. Speaking of which it cracks me up with Gavin Newson. Every time that Jesse Waters calls him Daddy, he's like, I'm not interested. His use of like, gay taunts is so. I, I'm not. Everyone's like, aren't you offended? I'm like, no, I love them. I don't know about how you feel. I like a gay taunt.
- [60:08]
B
I, I like a gay taunt too. I sometimes, the only time I get offended on this thing is sometimes I feel like. And maybe it's just because as a gay former Republican, I get a lot of incoming on this. Sometimes I feel like the liberals in my life are like, way too excited to make like gay slurs about Lindsey Graham and like the MAGA gays. And I, and I like a little, A little joke about Lady G. I'm fine with that. But sometimes it's like the tone where I'm like, I kind of feel like you're just, you've just been very. You've just had this pent up desire to make homophobic jokes and now you feel like you can because Lindsey Graham is the target. And it comes out a little too enthusiastic for my taste, I guess.
- [60:45]
A
I would agree. I'm 100% on your. I'm talking about more like when they actively go out of their way to like to slap back at it. But I agree with you. I just. Look, whatever journey Lindsey Graham is on is his journey. It is hypocritical, obviously, but when has that not happened? Do you remember during the Reagan administration.
- [61:03]
B
There was crawling with the administration, they.
- [61:05]
A
Were crawling with gays and they were doing anti gay things. But the stakes were, you know, with AIDS were so massive at the time, it seemed like they are massive now too. Their attacks on gay marriage right now are really quite disturbing.
- [61:17]
B
Are you worried about that? I don't know. I keep telling people, I think that the trans. I am acutely worried if I'm transgender, if I'm a migrant. And I think those are very acute crises right now and we should, we should really focus on them. The gay marriage thing, I kind of. I, I just would be. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know.
- [61:34]
A
I think that there are people that are very intent on still angry about gay marriage. And they are. They. They just sit there and they see and they work and they work and they work to overturn it.
- [61:46]
B
That's right. I mean, I think it's a losing fight for them, the abortion. I think a lot on the left thought the abortion thing would be a losing fight for them. And, And. And. And they. And they compare and they kind of conflate them. And I just. I think for a variety of reasons, like, gay marriage is like a 70% issue in the country, and I think it would be a pretty big.
- [62:02]
A
Well, it hasn't stopped them on a lot of things. Right. Gun control. I think there is a group of dedicated anti gay people that have never. I've always thought they've never gone away. And everyone's like, now we won. I'm like, have we? You know, I think you should be vigilant with these people. I think they would very much like to do a lot of things to women and gay people that are really disturbing and so. And set them back. And they articulate it now, and you see it. Even the things Vance pushes.
- [62:30]
B
It's noteworthy, the change in how unbridled they are now. Like, they feel totally now unshackled to say their real feelings about gay people. Like, there was a period of time where I think people were like this. There'll be backlash against me or this isn't. And you're not seeing that anymore. And I think that's. That's revealing in some way. I think it's bad. I worry about it for younger LGBT people, but I also. Also, in some ways, I think it's nice for it to be revealing that we can see the score a little bit.
- [62:59]
A
See, I've always thought they were like this. I never thought they were friendly to us for a minute. And by the way, they are committed to overturning marriage, some of those people. And guess what? We're committed not to. So that's the part that I think you'll see how that's gonna go. Trying to take my marriage away from me, you know what I mean? Like, I think.
- [63:16]
B
Come and take it.
- [63:18]
A
Okay, Tim, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.
- [63:25]
B
Labor Day savings are here at the Home Depot with up to 35% off, plus up to an extra $450 off select appliances like LG. Keep your routines running smoothly with an.
- [63:37]
A
LG refrigerator you can count on from the Home Depot.
- [63:40]
B
And with the connected ThinQ app, you'll know if the door is left open and when to replace the filter. Gear up for five with Labor Day savings on lg, America's most reliable appliance brand at the Home depot offer, valid August 21 through September 10, US only. See store online for details.
- [63:55]
A
Mama.
- [63:56]
B
Papa. Mi cuerpo crece a un ridmo alarmtech trip planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday.
- [64:15]
A
Your hammocking.
- [64:18]
B
And your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia. Made to travel.
- [64:30]
A
Okay, Tim, let's hear some wins and fails. I will go first. I think it's sort of a fail, this Trump Cankel thing. I know people are like, it's really odd, I have to say. Alex Jones is concerned about Trump's health. He warned last week at the current trajectory, Trump is going to have some sort of collapse within the next 12 months. Thank you, Dr. Jones, you terrible, heinous. Speaking of heinous bitches, Trump's hands are also looking questionable with all those odd smears of makeup. He had a weird walking thing. The ages, as I have said, the cognitive decline and the age decline is real. And he, Let me tell you, he's a lively old man. That's for sure. Like, he's the guy in the nursing home. That's just real life. But still gonna keel over at any moment. Could keel over at any moment. I'm not sure why they aren't controlling this, especially with the makeup and everything else. Largely cause he's probably very vain and everything else, but he's obviously aged rather significantly in so many ways, and I think it's taking its toll on him. It feels like he's rotting. It feels like when Voldemort was starting to rot, like when he wasn't getting enough dead that were his Horcrux.
- [65:40]
B
We can't see his real face. Is something that's true now. The leader will not show us what he really looks like because it's, you know, he's so fragile now.
- [65:50]
A
He looks like he was on Ozempic, but now he looks fat again. I'm like, something's going on with his health. I don't think that's a win or a fail. I just feel like you just wanted to mention it. I just want to mention it because I think people are like, oh, let's not mention. I'm like, no, no. He looks. If we're going to. Like, we should have mentioned more things about Biden and Scott and. And I did and gotten a lot of crap. He looks. There's something going on.
- [66:10]
B
The cankles are noteworthy. And if the cankles are as wide as Alex Jones's neck, you know that there's something concerning there.
- [66:17]
A
Remember when they attacked Hillary Clinton's cankles? Just saying.
- [66:20]
B
I don't recall that.
- [66:21]
A
Good for the gander. Good for the gander. No, it wasn't you. It's good for the Goose. And my win is the Fantastic. Once again, we have the new version of Wicked coming and it's only in three months. And I think their social media campaign is fantastic and they've done a great. I love John Chu. He's gonna be here in D.C. next week. I'm gonna see him, hopefully. I just am very excited about that movie and I just. I'm not gonna hide it. I love it and I love the actors in it and I think they're doing a spectacular marketing job on it. And I just love to watch people use social media in a really positive way. And I like that, and it gives me pleasure. Your win and fail.
- [67:02]
B
All right, well, I wasn't planning this one, but if we're doing musical shout outs, I should win for. I have to give my Oasis guys a win. I mean, nobody said they could do it. They're coming to America now, this week. They'll be back. Nobody ever thought they'd do it.
- [67:14]
A
Explain why this is a big deal.
- [67:16]
B
It was the brothers Noel and Liam Gallagher. They're brothers. They were very C word in the British sense. I still won't say that in your presence, Kara, but kind of Englishmen who drank a lot and fought together, and obviously folks will know Wonderwall or Champagne Supernova, some of their famous songs. And so they've been broken up for 16 years. They spent most of the decade and a half shit. Talking each other in the press. And the idea was like, they never would get back together. They were back together. I went to one of their shows in Manchester and then they're reunion shows and now they're. Now.
- [67:43]
A
Was it good? Are they good or they biblical?
- [67:45]
B
It was unbelievable. It was amazing. He sounds amazing. I think he must have quit smoking or got a vocal coach, because I, I, you know, I. Sometimes you'll go to see the aging rock stars. I hate to. I. I went to sleep. Pearl Jam at Jazz Fest. And it's like, you know, you can just tell sometimes.
- [68:00]
A
You know, the last Madonna concert. That's how I felt.
- [68:03]
B
Yeah. So. So not the case with Liam. He sounds amazing. They sound amazing. Everyone was so excited because people who are into Oasis are really into it. The crowd around me knew every word. It was wonderful. So that was a win.
- [68:13]
A
Good.
- [68:14]
B
The one that I'd planned on doing was on a more serious level. I was gonna give Putin a win in their little summit in Alaska.
- [68:21]
A
Go for it.
- [68:21]
B
No, I don't really have much to add it. It's just obvious now. When it had happened, there was like, I think even Some people were like, well maybe Trump will get. Maybe this thing will finally start doing to start to recede and Putin will get some deal out of it. Trump will give him some crypto or some parts of Ukraine. And obviously at this point he was just totally used by Putin in a way that's really embarrassing at this point. The red carpet rollout. My fail is to, as somebody who prefers the centrist Democrats, shout out to my girl. Jerusalem. Dempster started the argument. A new kind of center left Democratic outlet. But just my advice to them is their treatment of Zoran is so bad, it's such a fail. I do not understand what they're doing. They're limiting their own power in the future of the party. People are very excited about Zoran. I've got issues with some of his policies. I had him on the pod and we argued about a couple of various things. And so you don't have to full throatedly say you endorse everything, but there's so much enthusiasm for him. And you're going to get overthrown if you're Hakeem or Chuck Schumer or any of these guys that aren't like people are going to get pissed and overthrow you if you do not at least listen when I would.
- [69:37]
A
The scavenger hunt was brilliant. Again, he's very canny in a really interesting community. Someone's like, I went and I met a dozen people. Like, that was cool. He really is appealing. I agree. I went out to dinner, I think I said that was the senator, I'm not gonna say who it is, who was like bellyaching about him. I'm like, why don't you go watch what he's fucking doing before you did it.
- [69:56]
B
You also have no other choice. Who are you gonna back? Eric Adams, you know, Andrew Cuomo, Like a sex pass who had to resign in disgrace, who's already gotten beaten by your own voters. The whole thing is really frustrating.
- [70:08]
A
Voters said this and therefore, let's go with the vote. If young people, you complain and complain and complain about young people's engagement their engage, you complain about that like they really are a bunch of wimpuses. And they could say I don't agree with them on this, but I kind of think he's cool, that kind of thing.
- [70:24]
B
Or he's doing this thing well. Or I'm happy. Or how about even simply, I'm happy to endorse him just because the other options are so awful. That's okay. There are a lot of options besides just doing the Hemming and Hauling.
- [70:37]
A
One well known person we both know was saying, well, I wasn't asked to endorse. Why are people giving me a hard time for not endorsing? I'm like, you don't need to be asked. Just say what a cool indicator, interesting politician he is. We don't agree on everything, but pretty fucking cool. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 855-51PRIVOT. Elsewhere this week on with Kara Swisher, I talked with graphic novelist Alison Bechdel and editorial cartoonist Anne Telnes. Let's listen to a clip of Anne explaining how she draws Trump. My readers are the ones that always point out to me, cause I never notice I'm changing every time. They're like, okay, he's starting to look like a mouth bass now. And I'm like, okay, I, I can go with that. Or, you know, they say he's a pig. And I'm like, well, I like pigs. Don't tell me that. You know, so, you know, like I said, it's just really, I try to find out. I'm trying to show you what I think the insides of that person is more than the outside. Is there one particular body part that you think is besides the tie? Little hands. Tiny, tiny hands. They were great. It's really. We don't pay enough. Cartoonists are doing God's work at this point and Ann had left the Washington Post. Alison, of course, is such a talented cartoonist. She has a new book called Spent. Really interesting conversation about the visualization of our politics that goes way back in our history. Thomas Nast and her block and others. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Tim, thank you so much. You are also doing God's work. I really appreciate it. You're always.
- [72:18]
B
Thanks for having me, Carol. It was such a pleasure.
- [72:20]
A
Interesting and canny and I like that you have different takes. And I like that you like the gold Oval Office. That's what you'll be remembered for. You and I would go to a Liberace show. I love Liberace. So I also like Don Ho. I'm in that zone. All right, I'll read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderjot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited this video Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Nishat Kurw is Vox Media's Executive Producer of podcast. Make sure to follow pin on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back later this week for our last breakdown of all things tech and business before Scot Free August ends. We've got a very big name, a very person, who calls himself the most handsome governor in the country. We'll see what that means. You'll find out thanks to him.
- [73:16]
B
Thanks, Kara.