HBO Max Returns, Trump in the Middle East, and RFK Jr. Goes Swimming

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pivot | Episode: HBO Max Returns, Trump in the Middle East, and RFK Jr. Goes Swimming

Release Date: May 16, 2025

In this episode of Pivot, hosted by tech journalist Kara Swisher and NYU Professor Scott Galloway, the duo delves into a range of pressing topics spanning the tech industry, business strategies, political maneuvers, and public health controversies. The conversation is rich with insights, sharp analysis, and the characteristic banter that listeners have come to expect from Kara and Scott.

---

1. Meta’s Antitrust Trial

Timestamp: [07:30]

Kara and Scott kick off the discussion by addressing Meta's ongoing antitrust trial. Kara expresses frustration over Meta's attempts to undermine media credibility, highlighting instances where Meta's legal team misrepresented her comments.

Kara Swisher:
"[09:11] ...the headline projected me calling Mark Zuckerberg a small little creature with a shriveled soul... It was just ridiculous."

Scott analyzes the strength of the FTC’s case against Meta, comparing it to historical antitrust battles like that of Microsoft. He emphasizes the wealth of evidence, including detrimental internal emails that showcase Meta's acquisition strategies aimed at reducing competition.

Scott Galloway:
"[10:37] I think the FTC's argument at the beginning was that Snapchat and Mewi were their competitors. I just feel like it's a stronger case..."

Kara concurs, stressing that despite the complexities, the evidence against Meta is compelling enough to likely result in the company losing the case.

---

2. Apple’s iPhone Price Increase and Supply Chain Challenges

Timestamp: [14:56]

The conversation shifts to Apple’s strategic maneuvers amidst ongoing tariff challenges. Kara discusses Apple's decision to raise iPhone prices, attributing it to new designs and features rather than tariffs, despite the latter still impacting costs.

Kara Swisher:
"[19:24] ...New iPhones will include some design and format changes, including an ultra-thin design. You know, they're trying to still play up to Trump."

Scott critiques Apple's lack of innovation beyond incremental design changes, suggesting that the company's focus on shifting its supply chain from China to India has diverted resources away from groundbreaking product development.

Scott Galloway:
"[22:07] The primary cost of all of this nonsense... is just basically like giving American business high blood pressure."

He further speculates that Apple missed opportunities, such as potentially acquiring companies like BYD, which could have propelled them into the electric vehicle market more effectively.

---

3. HBO Max Rebranding

Timestamp: [27:53]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to HBO Max’s turbulent rebranding efforts. Kara and Scott dissect the multiple name changes the streaming service has undergone over the past decade, expressing frustration over the lack of a clear, cohesive brand identity.

Kara Swisher:
"[28:33] ...they just love him, a terrorist." (Note: This appears to be misattributed and likely a segment transition; context suggests a continuation on HBO Max)

Scott praises HBO’s enduring brand strength, comparing it to elite content producers like Seal Team 6, and laments the board's poor strategic decisions under CEO David Zaslav, who has reportedly earned $342 million despite the company's stock plummeting by over 62%.

Scott Galloway:
"[30:17] HBO defines what it means to have an amazing brand that creates a culture that results in a company that can punch above its weight class."

Kara agrees, expressing hope that HBO Max’s prestigious legacy is preserved and criticizing the board for their mismanagement, which has led to significant shareholder losses.

---

4. President Trump’s Middle East Tour and AI Deals

Timestamp: [41:35]

Kara and Scott analyze President Donald Trump's recent diplomatic tour in the Middle East, focusing on his meetings with Saudi Arabia and other regional leaders. Trump has been leveraging U.S. AI technology and partnerships with major tech companies like Amazon, OpenAI, Nvidia, and Uber to cement deals with Saudi officials.

Kara Swisher:
"[43:02] ...News of the deal sent Nvidia's market cap back above 3 trillion. And in a major foreign policy shift, Trump said he's lifting sanctions on Syria..."

Scott appreciates the strategic use of AI as leverage but raises concerns about the ethical implications and the potential for technology to empower authoritarian regimes.

Scott Galloway:
"[45:32] I think it's a really smart idea to try and figure out a way to at least have an informal peace or ally or understanding."

They also touch upon the complexities of U.S. relationships in the region, particularly Iran and Qatar, and the challenges of maintaining geopolitical integrity while engaging in high-stakes tech deals.

---

5. RFK Jr.'s Swimming in Contaminated Water and Vaccine Stance

Timestamp: [53:28]

The final major topic revolves around RFK Jr., the Health and Human Services Secretary, and his controversial actions and stance on vaccines. Kara highlights RFK Jr.'s recent photo of himself swimming in Rock Creek, which is contaminated with E. coli, and his dismissal of vaccine advice.

Kara Swisher:
"[53:40] ...he recently posted a photo of himself and his grandchildren swimming in Rock Creek, which is closed swimming because it's used for sewer runoff, E. coli."

Scott vehemently criticizes RFK Jr., labeling his actions as dangerous misinformation that undermines public health efforts. He underscores the long-term risks posed by RFK Jr.'s policies and public statements, emphasizing the potential increase in disease and disability rates.

Scott Galloway:
"[54:25] ...this guy wants to put us back on a global tour. He wants to first stop Texas in really crazy conservative places. We're back."

Kara adds that RFK Jr.'s behavior and statements are not merely distractions but symptomatic of deeper issues within public health leadership.

Kara Swisher:
"[58:45] ...he's really one of the more dangerous. And the problem is he's very handsome, he's very compelling."

---

6. Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Kara and Scott reflect on the intertwining of personal anecdotes with major global issues, maintaining their signature candidness and critical perspectives. They encourage listeners to engage with the show through submissions and previews future discussions on technology and business.

Kara Swisher:
"[66:04] Anyway, it's just an interesting time. The head of the NIH said about France taking scientists. He goes, 'oh, it's a nice place to visit. What an idiot.'"

Scott Galloway:
"[67:18] ...I need Kara to keep doing this podcast thing, so I need you to go to grad school. We need to lock her down. She needs the money. Grad school, my friend."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher on Meta Trial:
  "[09:11] ...calling Mark Zuckerberg a small little creature with a shriveled soul..."

• Scott Galloway on Apple's Supply Chain:
  "[22:07] ...giving American business high blood pressure."

• Scott Galloway on HBO's Brand Strength:
  "[30:17] HBO defines what it means to have an amazing brand..."

• Kara Swisher on RFK Jr.:
  "[58:45] ...he's really one of the more dangerous."

---

This episode of Pivot offers a multifaceted exploration of the current landscape in technology, corporate strategy, and political dynamics, providing listeners with in-depth analysis and thought-provoking commentary from Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Look, he can do whatever he wants if he wants to swim in shit. Good luck, Robert. I can't believe he continues to survive. Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Scott Galloway.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm a bit thrown off by that. What's.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm in your studio.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, you're in my studio.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you see this? I'm here.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Let me see.

[Kara Swisher]

Don't I look like you? Isn't this great?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, my gosh. Look at that.

[Kara Swisher]

Look at that. I'm Scott Galloway. Except I have hair.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's like that. Show substance. I want to be the hot young one in the unitard, though. I love that the only way Demi Moore gets an Oscar or a Golden Globe is if there's a much hotter version of her prancing around on a leotard. That's the only way they were going to give her an award.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, for those who are just Listening through audio. The background is the same because I'm at Scott's apartment in New York because my son.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Are you going through my stuff again? You like to do that, don't you?

[Kara Swisher]

I have Alex doing it this time. My son Louis graduated college. Well, it's a long graduation process here at nyu, but there was a smaller graduation yesterday, and there's a big one today at Yankee Stadium. And Scott has so kindly let me use his apartment for the Invasion of the Swishers for Louis graduation. And so I'm here in your studio, which is lovely, and I have been going through your things and deciding what to keep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And unrelated news. Do not open the guest room closet. If it smells funny. It's definitely not Patrick, my male escort that wanted 80 bucks instead of 70, and I had to take care of it, and I was a little too much meth. Just don't open a closet in the guest room.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, it's very generous of you to use. I'm trying to pay you a compliment. Scott and I did see each other this week when I came into New York. We did. Even though he protested and said he didn't want to see me. He and I did hang out one lovely evening.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You went to the Webby's, and I'm like, I'm going to stay at home and watch Friends and Neighbors.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I had to give an award to fei Fei Li, Dr. Fei Fei Li, who was one of the very early AI pioneers at the Webbies. And then I ran over to the San Vicente bungalows where Scott was at the bar. It was such a picture of you sitting at the bar there. It was nice to see you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's good to see you. I literally, like, once a year, I really want to sit down with you.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Once a year. Anyway, we had a great. At least once a year, I had a great time. It was nice to see you in person.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's good to see you. Congratulations to Louis.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I left him a gift in the refriger.

[Kara Swisher]

He was very touched by it. He was very. He's very. It was a great day, I have to say. A lovely graduation situation.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, they do a good job. We know. It's New York. We know how to throw a party. The pictures are great. I love the pictures of you in Washington Square.

[Kara Swisher]

The best part was they did it in the skierball center. They. They. What they do is they break up all the colleges and they go to Radio City Music hall or various places, and then they have a main one at Yankee Stadium, but the smaller ones are really the lovely ones. And Louis Group, the Global studies group, did it at Skirball center. And then they got to walk out of which is right across the street from Washington Square park and walk under the arch with the class. And it was very lovely. That's such a beautiful, iconic arch.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That's nice.

[Kara Swisher]

And then Alex was here too, and he's really enjoying it. He likes to.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And by the way, he's still growing. I saw a picture of you, literally. You, of course, decided to send me a video of him explaining my one piece of art to me. And he looks like he's dropping his four year old off at preschool talking to his mother. And I'm not kidding, I think he's still growing.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know what's going on. He's still growing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think he's still growing. He's getting. He's getting. The kid is enormous.

[Kara Swisher]

He's not Barron Trump level enormous, but he's big. He's a big guy.

[Unnamed Speaker]

No, but he's much buffer.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's very buffer.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He looks that guy. He's. I've decided he's the ultimate. If I ever get really, really rich, he's going to be my bodyguard. Because he's the kind of guy that like, could, Yeah, I don't know, figure out. Do your. Do your taxes drones.

[Kara Swisher]

You figure out the drone.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. And like fix your car in the middle of the desert and also kill anybody. He's very much a multitasker. I think Louis should study female biology and study abroad or two.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. Study abroad.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Study abroad.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you glad to be back in London?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, it's been beautiful here the last few days. And I just did. I just did a profile or they did a pro. The FT is doing a profile on me.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And of course they always ask like, how did you make Kara swish? I'm like, oh, God, here we go. Here we go.

[Kara Swisher]

Say in like in a whorehouse in Ibiza or something.

[Unnamed Speaker]

There we go. And I think, I think a profile in the ft, I think that is somewhat equivalent to being knighted.

[Kara Swisher]

That's nice.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think it's pretty close.

[Kara Swisher]

You're in the pit. You love that pink. What do you call it? The pink.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, that? Salmon.

[Kara Swisher]

Salmon, yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's ultimate self expressive benefit. I saw the paper delivered and I put it under my arm when I go to breakfast at the Crosby because I think it makes me look more like hero and smart. I don't actually read it, but it's like A purse for me. I think it just makes me look cooler. But I want to buy a Lordship. Specifically, I want to be prince. And then I'm going to change my name to Shamu, and I'll be Shamu, Prince of Wales.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Never gets old.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think it's that hard to buy yourself a sir or a lord or whatever.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, you can.

[Kara Swisher]

I think we should try to go for it that you get one.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think that would be, oh, 100%.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I think you should be up.

[Kara Swisher]

To now, Lady Scott Galloway.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, I wanted Charles and Diana to adopt me, and I was gonna change my name to up so we'd be up, Chuck and die. I'm on a roll.

[Kara Swisher]

What is with you?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm on a roll. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

[Kara Swisher]

No, you're not on a roll. Anyway, the Swisher family extends its thanks.

[Unnamed Speaker]

To the G. You're very welcome. I'm glad you guys had.

[Kara Swisher]

It's nice I'm still here. I'm not leaving for days.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's a nice. Well, how long are you there for?

[Kara Swisher]

Until Saturday. Sunday.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, Sunday. Great. Enjoy it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I'm having a good time. I've got things to stay away from.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The edibles.

[Kara Swisher]

In any case, I'll be here until Saturday. I've got to meet Richard Plepler for lunch. I have some important dinners and things like that. And today we're gonna do Louis birthday. Also today. So we're gonna do a big thing for him. He's planning the day.

[Unnamed Speaker]

More Louie. Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

More Louie. It's his birthday. It's his birthday and his graduation day.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Good for him.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. It's a great. We're having a great time. I have a nice family.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm glad. You deserve it.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including Trump taking his Art of the Deal routine to the Middle East. I'm so tired of this guy. And the not so triumphant return of hbo. Max, you talked about this. We'll talk about branding in a second. But first, Meta's antitrust trial continues. The FTC's key economic expert Scott Hempel, came under attack from Meta's lead attorney for having pitched regulators on an antitrust probe of the company in 2019. The pitch deck for the probe that apparently Hempel worked on, shown in court, included public comments about the company's aggressive acquisition strategy. And one was from Kara Swisher. The headline projected me calling Mark Zuckerberg a small little creature with a shriveled Soul insulted old Malik. All this thing, it was just ridiculous. It was so ridiculous and really petty on behalf of the Meta. And I heard from them and they were. I don't think they loved it either, but they did it anyway. And their lawyer was inaccurate. They said I was a Vanity Fair columnist. I wrote two stories for Vanity Fair a decade ago. A decade ago. Anyway, Just kind of shitty and obnoxious. But I think we have to have another insult for Mark. I called him a small little creature with a shivered soul. Your thoughts on that, and do you have a different one to call Mark?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm just curious. Give me a sense of what you think is happening in the case.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I don't know why they need to rely on this because I think they have a relatively strong.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Slamming the media. They're trying to say that they're victims in the media.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct. Or something. I don't even understand it in that, you know, they're trying to show anybody who has any criticism for Facebook, which is they should receive a lot of criticism, is just mean. I guess it's typical. Plays into Mark's idea of himself as a victim. And I don't even understand why it's in here. And they called o' Malik, who, let me just say. Oh, Malik was a pioneer in media entrepreneurship. They called him a failed blogger. Like what? Like why? And he's been, you know, both OM and I and all kinds of people, New York Times reporters, everyone who's covered Facebook for a very long time as beat reporters, came to the same conclusion about this company, differently from different places. Even Steven Levy, everybody. And I think it's really, really astonishing that they feel like attacking the media is the way to go here. I don't even understand the strategy, I guess, but anyway.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, you know the difference between Mark Zuckerberg and my neighbor Steve? No, Steve's not a cunt. And by the way, folks, before you filled my comments accusing me of being misogynist. I'm in London, I'm in Britain. We're allowed to use that word here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And it has no reference to gender. It just means this person is a very unlikable piece of shit.

[Kara Swisher]

That is. I have a pair of socks with that on it. Just to know. I was going to leave some for you now I'm certain I will.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I was literally saying in this profile in the Financial Times, it's appearing next week, that they were talking about our partnership, which they're all obsessed with us. The. Or our partnership, I should say. And I said that one of the One of the few nice things. I mean, let's be honest. There's a lot of downside to being a partner with you. But one of the few nice things is that I said I get to be irreverent. And there'll be an uncomfortable pause and then. And I'm serious about this, when you laugh, it kind of gives everyone permission to laugh.

[Kara Swisher]

You've said that.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So I like that a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You give me cloud cover for a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

Wait a minute. Where's the. Where's the downside?

[Unnamed Speaker]

The downside. We're going to need a bigger boat now.

[Kara Swisher]

You love it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We're going to need a bigger vote. Anyway, I think people are sick of hearing us talk about us, but do you think you know this case better than I do? What is your speculation here? What do you think's going to happen?

[Kara Swisher]

I felt they have a relatively strong case, and I don't usually, I don't. I think they definitely have done all kinds of monopolistic behaviors and I think they control things. But I think in this case, things have changed. And I think the government took them far too long to do any regulation. And so I'm not so sure that they don't have competitors. They do have competitors, although they dominate at the same time. It's not similar to Microsoft. To me, Microsoft truly dominated and there were not other alternatives. And in the case of Facebook, it is, I think, at the time, the kind of Facebook always manages to do the sneakiest, shittiest thing, especially back in the day, that they could. And that's not illegal necessarily. It just makes them the word you use. And they always make the choice that hurts people. They make the choice that of not caring about consequences of the actions they take. They try to victimize themselves and blame all the critics when they have legitimate criticism. But it's a very strong case, and I think they're not conducting it very well here. And I think they're going to lose. I do, for some reason, I think that the tide against billionaires and these powerful tech companies is still, despite Trump is still on the side of what is wrong with these people. And so I suspect it'll go to appeal. It'll like, this one's not as strong as some of the others, but some of the emails are pretty terrible, I think.

[Unnamed Speaker]

See, I think this is pretty strong because if you look at the definition of antitrust as it relates to trying to reduce competition, you are not. I mean, it just couldn't be clearer with respect to acquisitions. You're not allowed to acquire a company for the purposes of reducing competition. And they literally have emails with Mark Zuckerberg, everyone else saying it's better to acquire than compete. I mean, it's almost as if they wanted to write a case study on what illegal antitrust acquisition is. I mean, if they don't, if they don't. If the FTC doesn't win on this one, that's it. Let's just stop all cases because they literally, they are. If they had their hands around the throat of someone who had just died with their blood splattered all over them and they were screaming, I killed this person. And then they didn't go to jail, that's if they're not found guilty of antitrust. I mean, this defines antitrust.

[Kara Swisher]

It does, it does. I'm saying that the FTC's argument at the beginning was that Snapchat and Mewi was their competitor. I just feel like it's a stronger case. Look, the Trump administration waged it and then it was thrown back at the FTC and Lina Khan improved it. That's absolutely true. I just feel like it's not. Of all the different cases, whether it's Google, Google, it's like, to me, it's a slam dunk. The Apple one is very clear what's going on there. These emails, I think they call them hot emails or whatever, are really bad. Are really bad. And so I think that's probably what's gonna do them in, because a lot of these companies, before they get to be big, I think it's called email hygiene. Like, they didn't have any. You can see what they think of what they're doing. And, you know, I think the testimony of Kevin Systrom wasn't great for them. I suspect they've got people lined up around the block for that kind of stuff. If they're doing it, we have to see how it unfolds. I think going to lose this, even though it's. Of all the cases, it's not the strongest, despite the emails. So we'll see. In any case, stop attacking the media. We're not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And this is the thing about. There's this channel, Gestalt in America where anything you do around antitrust is bad for the economy. If they were forced to spend Instagram, shareholders win. Think about how many people would want to own a pure play Instagram.

[Kara Swisher]

100%.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's such a. It's. I mean, to their credit, it's such an incredible product. And it's Instagram. Just to give you A sense of power of Instagram. Right now, when we did my birthday in Scotland, I don't know if you talked to any of the folks there, but basically, Scotland has been totally overrun. They can't. And I said, well, what's happened? And they said, two summers ago, the Scottish tourism board invited 50, quote unquote, big Instagram influencers. And, like, 30 said, yes, free trip to Scotland. And Scotland, when it's nice out, is literally an Instagram orgy. It is spectacular. And tourism was up something like 22% the next year and like, 28% the following year. The INS can't handle it. The roads can't handle it. At the same time, a group of Instagrammers started posting reels of how ridiculously overpriced Ibiza and Mykonos have. And supposedly tourist traffic in Ibiza and Mykonos literally crashed last summer. So Instagram is shaping global tourism flows now.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Fascinating. I got a million of them, Kara. I got a million of them.

[Kara Swisher]

In any case. In any case, we'll see. I just feel like what annoyed me less than, like, using me or om as a thing is it was inaccurate. It was like, I don't work for Vanny Fair. I said one thing, if you're talking about a thing in 2019. I said this recently after years of covering it as a beat reporter because I was so sick and tired of this company. And so it's just, like, sloppy. Just like, stop it. They're just gross and they're not good at it. Donald Trump is good at lying. Facebook is not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

When's the last time you spoke to Mark Zuckerberg?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, forever ago.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Forever ago. When's the last time you spoke to Sheryl Sandberg?

[Kara Swisher]

She texted me, not too long.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You don't have to answer. You're friends.

[Kara Swisher]

No, we're not friends. No. I mean, when she was getting married, she said she was driving a bicycle past the place where we did code, and she sent me a picture of her and her fiance at the time. That's the last time I talked. It was years ago. Years ago.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm curious, what do you think she's gonna do next?

[Kara Swisher]

I think she's supposedly, again, I'm not talking to her, is happy with her life. She got remarried. She did a couple of little things, but in giving away money quietly, I think. I don't know how much, but she was always pretty at the flank.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think she's more ambitious than that. I think she's gonna run for governor.

[Kara Swisher]

Really? I don't think so.

[Unnamed Speaker]

You don't think so?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, I think she likes her life. I think she. If you go look on her Facebook feed or something, it's a lot of like, here I am at Taylor Swift, here I am with my husband. Here's, you know, seems like she's enjoying her life and good for her.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's not 14 year olds cutting themselves. No, no, no, no. Sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Best of you, Cheryl. Best to you.

[Kara Swisher]

On your chest. I don't know what she's gonna do. I honestly, we're not really in touch, so I tried to reach her when Mark was sort of slagging her, and apparently she didn't think Mark was slagging her, so I did, and so did many people, but others didn't, so whatever.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And who's the new heat shield? Who's the new guy who's gonna lie and get paid 100 million bucks and then once his reputation is destroyed, leave? Is that Joel? Yeah, Joel Kaplan, the Republican?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, he's supposed to be very smart.

[Kara Swisher]

He. I talked to him the other day at a party.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He told me he wouldn't have lunch with you. He's smart.

[Kara Swisher]

He should have lunch with me. Anyway, let's move on. Apple is considering increasing iPhone prices this fall without blaming tariffs, instead attributing price hike to new designs and features. But while the US and China agreed to suspend most tariffs against each other, the 20% Trump tariff imposed on Chinese goods at the start of the second term is still in place and covers smartphones. Apple built up inventory and shifted some manufacturing, as we've talked about, to India in preparation for tariffs. But the company's most profitable and high end phones are still mostly handled by Chinese factors factories. I keep saying that to people. They haven't successfully moved these operations, although they've been moving in that direction. New iPhones will include some design and format changes, including an ultra thin design. You know, they're trying to still try to play up to Trump. They're not gonna, they're not gonna blame it on terrorists, but consumers will feel that it's Trump's fault, presumably, but maybe not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, we. I mean, essentially you have the largest yard sale in history with so much import and export business and so much. I mean, the US is the largest economy in the world and so much of it now is up for grabs because of what's happened over the last 100 days. Whether it's this tariff nonsense or people not trusting. Trying to figure out a way to not to do is to do Less business with America versus more. And one of the big winners. There's a lot of winners here. One of the winners is India, and that is Trump is making India great again. And that is. People are saying, okay, America seems to have. Or the Trump administration seems to. The relationship with China is very adversarial and creates interruptions or lack of consistency or dependability. Dependability on the supply chain. So Trump was claiming it was going to bring manufacturing back to America. Now it's bringing manufacturing to India and it's. I guess Indian manufacturing for iPhones is 5 to 10% more expensive. So you will see a bump in prices. I mean, the problem is, if you want to talk about how this hurts people or companies in little ways, Apple really does need to innovate right now. I would argue that Apple's product line is a little bit stale. I was excited about Apple intelligence, but I don't really see how it's doing anything that interesting. The mixed reality headset was a total thud. They really haven't. I don't. I would argue they really haven't innovated since the AirPods, which I think is the most underrated. I think the Apple Watch is essentially them throwing so much capital at it that. I don't know. I'm not a huge fan of the Apple Watch, but I think you could argue that it's hard not to call it a success. Actually, there's more Apple watches sold than the entire Swiss watch industry, but they need a refresh. But where I'm headed with this is the following is that instead of focusing on innovation, instead of having the most important people focused on design or new products, they're focused on trying to figure out a way to get the largest, most complex supply chain out of China and into somewhere else or India, as opposed to being able to focus on the next generation of products which grow their shareholder base, grow the US Economy. The primary cost of all of this nonsense and all of this chaos and a lack of regard for, a lack of understanding for how business is actually done is just. It's basically like giving American business high blood pressure, and that is they're more prone to opportunistic infection or to disease. It's just weakening the business corpus of the US because you have a guy like. I mean, can you imagine how much time Tim Cook has to spend on trying to figure out a way to move his supply chain out of China to India, as opposed to trying to figure out what the next thing in.

[Kara Swisher]

Technology is and what to say about Trump? Right. This is not something they had to do. Every minute that it takes from the executives not focusing on product is always a bad minute. Right? I mean, that's it. What would you make though?

[Unnamed Speaker]

What would you. I still go back to, I think there was an enormous opportunity, I think, I mean easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but I think Apple should have early on acquired byd, assuming that China hadn't been. I think that essentially the waiting list for an Apple car would be the most valuable list ever aggregated in history. Because the logo and the self expressive benefit of Apple is so incredibly strong. That, and granted no one knew BYD was going to be the monster it is. But given the fact they have such incredible supply chain in China, given the fact that they have such a good relationship with Xi. If, if things had been, if the temperature had been lower, imagine if Apple had gotten to kind of letter L with a company like BYD and produced a really elegant, cool little car for $11,000.

[Kara Swisher]

How many of those made in America, they could have done it? You're right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The I auto. Can you imagine the I car? The I auto, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, the thing is, as much as I think they're very great operators and I think they are, I think there's no question, I think one of the doubts when Steve died, everyone's like, it's over. And of course Tim has 10 X'd.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Come on.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm just telling you that was you remember? But logistics can only get you so far. And the Vision thing is not as like Jobs took these risks even if they didn't work. Right. And Tim is doing that through say the Vision Pro, et cetera. But it's not the same. It doesn't feel like I sit around, I'm like, what could they do to the iPhone that makes it better, thinner. That's it. Right? But that's not a thing, that's not a new product.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, but when we're talking about risk and product development. So first off, let's talk about the cadence of a company to go from 0 to 300 billion, which is what Steve Jobs did, is just remarkable and probably the hardest thing. It is really hard. It's like women will always have on men. They can create life, they can grow bones and muscle. That's sort of singular. Starting a company from your garage and building it to something worth a lot. I do think that's the hardest part of quote unquote, the life cycle of a company. Having said that, until recently, Tim Cook has added more shareholder value than any person in history because he Took the company from 300 billion to 3 trillion. I think Jensen Huang is now number one, because I think he'd taken it from zero to over 3 trillion. But anyways. But when people complain about new products, if you will, there's always an emphasis on new. More stuff. Tim Cook, to his credit, said, all right, I can either try and invent a bunch of little prop planes, or I can take this 747 called the iPhone and put, you know, hypersonic jets on it and some really visionary moves that were kind of elegant and not that loud. He took the. Remember the. What's it called, the ipod, and he turned it into a button and turned Apple music into a, you know, a huge hit. He launched services and he's done it all around the iPhone, because what he said is, if we get distracted with a whole bevy of other types of products, we won't be able to take advantage of what is the most profitable product in history with the greatest gross margin in history. That has the production volumes of Toyota with the margins of Ferrari, and that is the iPhone. So I think he's made a conscious decision to innovate around the thing that just produces more cash flow. The question is, it's starting to feel a little tired.

[Kara Swisher]

It is, yeah. He's got a. What would you put in Ultra thin? Is what I would say. Right. That's the only thing I would.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, but that's a design feature, I think. Apple. I now believe I'm writing a no mercy, no malice on healthcare costs and the budget deficit. I still believe the most disruptible business in the history of the west is US healthcare. And I think Apple should go deeper and deeper into healthcare and fitness.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I make a comment? As much as. By the way, Tim is very into fitness. He exercises. He's like you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He's in great shape.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. As an older man, I don't think they have it in them. I think they've done enough and they don't have the. Joni, I've did a really interesting interview. I don't think they have the explosive creativity at all in you. There's a point where you can't make more stuff if you can't think like you've done. And by the way, this is a record of a group of executives who, you know, as I always call them, the Rolling Stones, but it's still the Rolling Stones. Right. Like, they're not the Rolling Stones that were. And so they can't do much but play their oldies. That's how I look at them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. But they have the capital to make some accurate. That goes to.

[Kara Swisher]

It takes energy in a board.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Agreed. But in a board meeting, you're supposed to, every at least once a year, a good board through every six months, you go through succession planning and you're supposed to. That's when you can tell if you have the right. Unfortunately, some of the best CEOs are very good at shooting any competition. And that's one of the things I noticed about when I was on board a nyt. It was clear the CEO was, quite frankly, was insecure because nobody good would ever get past. They always seemed to either leave or she would shoot them. Basically no one. It was pretty clear there was no one who could handle the job, which means you're a bad CEO. And I don't know what the succession planning meeting is in there, but I would think Apple's board is. So it's so impressive that they gotta be thinking, all right, who are the VPs and SVPs that really bring some crazy fucking mojo to this whole thing right now? They gotta be cognizant of this issue, I would think.

[Kara Swisher]

I suppose I just think people run out of energy and then no one says anything. Anyway, we have to move on Streaming service Max will now return to being called HBO Max. This coming, of course, yet again. Oh, God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Literally, I've had it. I have had it, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, so has the social media arm of the company, because they were making fun of themselves. Let's listen to a clip of you talking about David Zaslav's decision to change a name right here on Pivot. Back in 2023, if you had $10.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Billion and you tried to recreate a brand like HBO, you probably couldn't do it. It'd be 1 in 10 chance you could do it. So he's taken tens of billions of dollars, or at least billions in equity, and he's taken it into the street and created a fire to warm his ego. But this will go down as one of the great brand disasters.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, so now it's called HBO Max, the streaming service. The change marks the fourth name change for the service in a decade. It was called hbo. Now there was Max, there's hbo, there's HBO Max. And again, the company's social media things are making fun of it too, in a really kind, vicious way. How dumb this is and how difficult it is. And they call it rebranding de branding. Scott, let me give you my. I don't have a perspective because I have a contract with CNN and I am making a documentary that probably will be on this, whatever the fuck it's going to be called. But that's my disclosure. But I find this like, perplexing. I always liked HBO Max myself. Thoughts, brand expert?

[Unnamed Speaker]

This was probably the strongest, one of the strongest brands in the arts or in media anything. What is a brand? A brand gives you unearned margin and in this case HBO gave you, or the HBO brand gave unearned trial. Almost anything that comes on hbo, you're more willing to trial. And the reason why is that to the credit of hbo, the culture they have been able to create there, such that they attract the best and brightest in the industry and means that they basically can go toe to toe with Netflix on, no exaggeration, 1/7 of the content budget. Netflix spends 18 billion, HBO spends 2 1/2. And yet if you see two people at the proverbial water cooler talking about a zeitgeist cultural moment and you had to bet what streaming platform that cultural moment is taking place on, the best bet is hbo.

[Kara Swisher]

It is, although it's increasingly Netflix. Right? Did you see that show on Netflix?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Okay, it's seven times. HBO defines what it means to have an amazing brand that creates a culture that results in a company that can punch above its weight class.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, agree.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It is so artisanal. It's the lvmh. It just doesn't have the capital of a Netflix. But I mean, talk about the Last of Us, Succession, Game of Thrones, the Sopranos. You know you love hacks. That's on the.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but go ahead.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's not in the same league as this that I'm talking about. Kara. Six Feet Under. Jesus Christ. I mean, these guys consistently put out Sex in the City. They consistently put out this content that identifies the moment and they turn it into fucking Max. So we can find big, Big Bang Theory and Shark Week. I mean, and let's just go, no one on the board. This is the worst board in media. Nobody on the board had the sense to go. You can't take billions of dollars into the street and light it on fire. That's bad for shareholders. Can we get someone here who actually understands brand, who can talk about the power of HBO and not make the job of a board is 1 to pick the right guy or gal 2 when to sell the company, but also to have some domain expertise on the board. So occasionally you can save the CEO from him or her because it is really difficult to read the label from inside of the bottle. This was the easiest one ever. No, do not do away with hbo. With the HBO brand. And what do they do? I'll give them credit. A step back from the wrong direction is a step in the right direction. But let's talk about this board. Since they merged, since Zaslav was able to talk shareholders into doing this crazy thing and overpaying for it such that he could go to LA and play Jack Warner, the stock is off 62.8%. And you know how much shareholders have lost 2/3 of their value that were dumb enough to buy into this merger. Do you know how much the board has paid Zaslav in his tenure for the last four and a half years?

[Kara Swisher]

A lot.

[Unnamed Speaker]

$342 million. So shareholders lose two thirds of their value and the CEO makes a third of a billion dollars.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to ask you a specific question. What would you have them call it? Just continue with Max now that they made that way. That's one and then two. There's obviously rumors and most people think this is gonna happen. Them spinning off, doing what MSNBC just did, essentially putting CNN and other things in one bucket and the studio I guess in another bucket. So what do you imagine? I suppose HBO would go with the studio. You part. Yeah, that would go over there and then the news and other subs will go places. They're doing what MSNBC did. So talk about those two things. What would you have them do? Call it that or not call it that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, there's brand strategy and business strategy. They probably have to do and they lead into each other. But basically we know what's going to. I, I think I know what's going to happen here. The company's going to go good bank, bad bank. It's going to be HBO and Warner Brothers. The theater business, the characters, the IP which will feed into hbo. HBO is the brand. It'll another component, a sub, a subset HBO Max or something that's all the other. And then they will spin all the TV and the cable assets into. They'll either consolidate or be part of a consolidated consolidation with Comcast. And that is. They're just. These are still highly profitable businesses but they're shrinking. So that means consolidation and cost cutting. And they'll have good bank, bad bank. And then the HBO Warner part of the business will trade at a greater multiple. They'll sell off the cable assets to a consolidator although be the consolidatee and they'll use that cash flow to pay down the debt and the stock will trade up. But the problem is and it's always the boring shit that gets You, I'm not sure of this, but what I would suspect is the reason they haven't done this so far is Zaslav, when he bought the company, issued a ton of debt at exactly the right time. And that is he has very friendly debt that is at a ridiculously low interest rate. And I would bet that if he tries to spend those assets, it triggers an acceleration in the debt, and then he'd have to go borrow money at a much higher interest rate. So I think he has to wait until that debt matures and he has to go into the market anyway.

[Kara Swisher]

There was also a way they did the merger. They couldn't act until a certain amount of time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But I think the debt. They don't want to do anything that in any way gives their bondholders a reason to say, oh, we're out and you have to borrow money from us. It's at 8%, not a two and a half. So. But this company will be an artisanal, vertically integrated Warner Brothers studio and hbo, the artisanal streaming network that will survive. And then they'll take all of the highly profitable but declining assets and roll them up with the bunch of the other other cable guys. This company will be split up.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's get back to the name. Would you have returned it to HBO Max or just left it at Max since they went that direction?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, no, bring back hbo. Oh, my God.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you call it just HBO or HBO Max? Not hbo. Now that was a short period of weirdness.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Kara, do you remember HBO Go, Go, Go.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I forgot Go. Yes, of course I do.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Hbo, Joey, Bag of Donuts.

[Kara Swisher]

I remember for a moment being like, why are there more than one apps to access these?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I would. I think HBO needs a distinct brand identity that means artisanal, high end. Like, this is lvmh. This is a different streaming network. And they probably have a sub brand that's for all the other crap, right? That's for all the other stuff that they play online. So I think it would be HBO and then HBO Max, right? This is such a clean, beautiful, artisanal brand. And what they've created there is so special. And what to their credit, they've been able to maintain it. I mean, if you think about it, Netflix, Netflix is the Russian army throwing 20 million people at a problem. You know, they just have more gross tonnage. HBO is Seal Team 6. I mean, these are the most elite content producers.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me say, speaking since I'm having lunch with Richard, it's due to the Richard Plepler like, set that in motion, the quality. And he's since gone on to other things, and the people that he trained, like Casey Bloys and others, are the reason for that. Right. They continue. And I know he left the company under a bit of a. Like, I think he was not liking what they were doing. Like, what they were doing. But I have to say, he set the tone for that and created one of the greatest brands, I think, with Sopranos and as you said, Sex and the City and Game of Thrones, et cetera. So much credit to him. And you're right, they continue to create great stuff.

[Unnamed Speaker]

The White Lotus. What's your favorite thing ever on hbo?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, God, there's so many. Probably Sex and the City is the thing I watch the most of. But I liked Sopranos. I like. There's a lot I like. There's so much. There's always something good on hbo. They're always good.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Chernobyl, there's some movies. The Penguin.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, just really good stuff.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Show I just started watching, which is our kind of friend's iconic, the Leftovers. Oh, that's probably hugely underrated. Really.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a huge show that's actually doing very well.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Band of Brothers. I mean, these guys just keep figuring out a way to put out amazing content.

[Kara Swisher]

They do. And so don't fuck it up, David. That's all I have to say. Anyway, speaking of streaming very briefly, Fox Corp. Will also launch its streaming service, not quite as fancy, called Fox one. I actually kind of like the name. Ahead of the NFL season later this year, they're gonna jam a bunch of crap in there, and they have their own streaming service. So, again, I think people will pay for Fox. They had another thing. Fox, or whatever they had, where they had all that Tucker Carlson nonsense. There's lots of streaming services launching. What do you think about Fox's chances?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Oh, I mean, first off, they just announced their. Their first show. It's called I'm Not Racist, but.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, come on.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Anyways. What? Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

That'S a good show. Like, I believed you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I'm not racist, but is that a real show?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no, I believe you. See, I believed you. I was like, huh? I could see them doing that. Anyway, go ahead.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think there's a market for it. I'd just go fucking crazy. Like, I'd have Laura Loomer. I would just go full conspiracy weirdo. I mean, and I'd go, okay, those of you who are really crazy, gotta tune in here. I'd go nuts and go, well, legal liability, though.

[Kara Swisher]

You have to be very. You can't. Like, they've been down. They're still in the middle of a lawsuit.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Claim it's an online platform. Yeah, that'd be interesting. Could you claim her an online platform?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. Anyway. Yeah, I agree. Well, anyway, we have to move on, but I think there's plenty of people who'd buy this. It's a good idea. It's probably late. They probably should have done it earlier. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back Trump's deal of palooza in the Middle East. Oh, good God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Kara Swisher]

It's kind of like that.

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back. President Trump is on a whirlwind tour of the Middle East. It's just, I don't even want to talk about it. I'm so tired of looking at him where he's been busy with all sorts of wheeling and dealing. He attended a lunch in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday with a gaggle of US business leaders, including the CEOs of Amazon, OpenAI, Nvidia and Uber. And of course Elon was there, all with their hands out to the Saudis. Some of the deals Trump has touted in the last few days, a $600 billion commitment from Saudi Arabia to in the U.S. the real number is reportedly much lower. Qatar Airways is buying as many as 210 Boeing jets. Nvidia is selling chips to an AI startup backed by Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund. News of the deal sent Nvidia's market cap back. It had been declining to above 3 trillion. And in a major foreign policy shift, Trump said he's lifting sanctions on Syria and he met with the country's new president, the first US Syria leader meeting in 25 years. Couple things there was that lunch. In addition, Nvidia, AMD and Amazon also struck deals with Saudi Arabian AI startup. Trump seems to be using US AI technology and chips as leverage for a lot of these deals. Not the stupidest thing in the world, but people are worried we risk losing the upper hand on AI. We're sharing them. OpenAI is reportedly considering building data centers in UAE. We're going to talk about the diplomacy part in a minute, but how do you think about the business part and what he's doing here? A lot of like jazz hands all over the place.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Look, I think it makes sense. There's been US Delegations led by the president that go overseas for decades. But what they usually have is they have a broader campaign. Contributions aren't the litmus test. It's great American companies and also they always make sure that the Chamber of Commerce and the Small Business association is represented such that at least there's the illusion they're trying to sell America as opposed to trying to sell the people who've been really good to them and I, I or good to the president. I think it's, I think something like this makes sense. AI is big. He's, he's leveraging it. I think they're being smart about this. That's the good side of this. The thing that's really scary and corrupt is that, all right, he's in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia wants a technology to build a civilian nuclear plant. They want AI and what do you know, they announced a giant Trump Tower in jail. Data, you just shouldn't be mixing the two. And this is especially upsetting for me for someone who thinks a lot about Israel and the fact that there are still 50 plus hostages that have been held for 500 plus days. I've always said if you want to get the hostages out, follow the money. Put pressure on Qatar. How much pressure can the President bring to bear on Qatar when they are talking about doing golf course developments, enriching the family by billions of dollars? How honest and how, how much can geopolitical interests of the US be pure and unfettered around us and our allies when they are saying to the sun, we'll give you a billion dollars for development here. And by the way, in Qatar, it's not a private company doing it with Eric and Don. It's a division of the Qatari government that is in this real estate deal. And then let's keep traveling to the UAE where they want Americans AI chips. And the reason we don't want to give them to the AI and haven't to date is we are worried that because China, which represents three times the level of import business in terms of oil, in other words, the UAE economically is more dependent upon or Saudi Arabia, excuse me, but the UAE is actually a bigger trading partner with China. We don't want to give them these chips because they're worried about leaking that sensitive information to China. But what do you know, the UAE has a noun that they are going to invest in World financial liberty, stablecoin. This is just all folks. Our interests are not being represented.

[Kara Swisher]

No, the Trump family's interests are.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So I like the fact he's sitting down. I think Syria is a big, I think for us to establish the rail politic of, of dealing with the new leaders. Syria right now, I realize that has a lot of weirdness to it. I think it's a really smart idea to try and figure out a way to at least have an informal peace or ally or understanding. And this is the time to cut the deal and to put a cudgel or a wedge in between Syria and Russia. Right now is a big opportunity.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So let's talk about the Diplomacy angle of this trip. Trump is clearly enjoying all the pomp and pageantry. He loves walking by a bunch of soldiers and fancy gold stuff, but he's also got a lot of love for these leaders. The Syrian president, a young, attractive guy, he's so much on looks. It's so strange, especially with men. He said Qatar's emir was a very special guy. In talking about the Saudi crown prince, Trump said, I like him too much. Which is interesting to say about someone who sawed someone up.

[Unnamed Speaker]

He's literally gonna say, and he's a great kisser. And I'm expecting that to come out of his.

[Kara Swisher]

It sounds like he might be leaving Melania for one of these guys. His way he talks about men, he talks about women in a grotesque way, sort of like nice boobs. But men is a very strange. Like, it's not just funny. He does it all. All the frigging time.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I like that about him. I think most people think that way. I think we're very. Look, system.

[Kara Swisher]

You do. You're right. You're right. In addition to lifting these sanctions on Syria, he also said he's open to negotiating with Iran, saying there are no permanent enemies. That was kind of an interesting thing because most of the Republican establishment, they did a really interesting go back five years with, like, Rubio, et cetera. There are permanent enemies, right? Like whether it's North Korea, Trump has. This is. This is consistent. Trump is consistently I'll do a deal with anybody kind of guy. So his. This one, I think he's correct. There are no permanent enemies. But it's a really interesting effort on his part to be like, whatever the deal is, I'll do the deal, and you're an attractive man. That kind of thing. I don't know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, it goes back to values with respect to Iran, I think it's different. I think you go into Syria, there's a huge opportunity for us, and I would argue there's probably a decent amount of public support after what the populace endured from the kind of depraved, violent reign of Bashar al Assad. When it comes to Iran, I think American values have to come out. And that is, I think the smartest thing we can do is, quite frankly, just to try to undermine the Islamic Republic. And we do. America does have, or at least pretends to have, values about being concerned about the general population and being focused on rights, women's rights around the world. And the one place I think that we have an opportunity is that the Islamic Republic does not have a great deal of support from the Iranian people. And as someone who grew up with Iranians in la, I've always thought Iranians are more American than Americans.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they are.

[Unnamed Speaker]

We should be great allies with Iran because they're really into education, really into capitalism. I think Iran is just a huge missed opportunity for us. And when you meet especially some of the, like you want to talk about the benefits of immigration. We got so many outstanding people after the revolution who immigrated to the us. So many great doctors, scientists, business people. One of my mentors, a guy named Hamid Mogadam, who runs the largest REIT in America, Prologis, came here after the revolution. I mean, we got such incredible human talent. And it's a shame that this, in my opinion, backward, primitive, oppressive government is unfortunately, through kind of a reign of terror, is the leadership of Iran. So I think we should kind of take the Reagan esque approach, and that is, we have absolutely no quarrel with the Iranian people, but the leadership and the governing body there is not good for the Iranian people or for the world. And, and, and we have a tendency to group all of the gulf as Americans into one group of people. They are much different. The Saudis do not have any love lost with Iran. So this is. But this is a place you want to talk about the need for someone really smart in an incredible team that is solely based on competence, not whether Eric is selling golf courses. It's the gulf between economic opportunities, between a flashpoint of potential violence or wars that could erupt and destabilize the world. World. We've got to be really honest and really smart and not be seen as fucking whores over there collecting planes and golf courses.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. One of the interesting things is this beef between Business Insider, which is owned by Axel Springer, and they wrote a piece about how Don Junior's like. It makes Hunter Biden blush, essentially. And of course, they're going after just a really minor story by a very good reporter, by the way, Bethany McClain, and they're putting pressure. They will not take any criticism over what is clearly grift like. Grift, grift, grift, grift. Sorry, Don.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I don't think it's the grift that bothers them. I think they're, it's associating. I think, I think it's the association or the implication that Don has a drug problem. I think they're fine with. I think they're like, yeah, we're capitalists, we're grifters.

[Kara Swisher]

Interesting.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think he's pissed off that you're saying I'm like Hunter, that my drug habit is out of control.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, interesting. Oh, I didn't think about that. It wasn't in the story. I read the story. I was. Anyway. All right. All right, Scott. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll Talk Talk about RFK's bizarre swim.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Donald Trump's been back in office long enough to shock or surprise just about anyone who voted for him at this point, be it the Signal scandal or the tariff turnarounds. The Jeanine Pirro of it all. The way he talks about Ozempic and.

He takes the fat the fat chance shot drug. So rude.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm in London and I just paid for this damn fat drug I take.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I said it's not working on today. Explained. We're asking if any of his voters are experiencing voters remorse, especially those ones who are newer to his winning coalition. Younger voters, black voters, Latin voters. We're heading to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to ask them if regrets do they have a few. And just by way of spoiler to get this out of the way, the answer is yes, they do.

And he takes the fat the fat shot drug.

How much money does it actually cost to do a home renovation? This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Bachelorette contestant turned home renovation expert Tyler Cameron. From having just $200 in his bank account to getting a TV show on Amazon prime prime, this episode is packed with practical advice. Whether you're a homeowner or just hoping to be one someday.

Two Two ways to take this first.

One is if you're going to renovate.

Your home, why are you doing it?

Are you doing it to make money? If so, then I'd focus on your kitchen, I'd focus on your bathrooms.

Plus get the inside scoop on which projects are worth DIYing and which are better left to the pros. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRich BFF.

In most ways, Google and Apple are ruthless competitors. But then a high powered Apple executive gets up on the stand at the trial that might break up Google and argues that actually Google's fine and the best thing you can do is leave it alone. Why? Because Google being Left alone means $20 billion a year for Apple. On the Verdcast this week, we talk all about what's going on at the Google trial. Plus + the latest from the efforts to break up Meta, what's going on with Netflix and lots more. All that on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, we're Back with more news. Health and Human Services Secretary RFK Jr had quite a week. First off, let's listen to a clip of him answering questions before a House committee. I don't think people should be taking advice.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Medical advice.

[Kara Swisher]

Me, I think that's about that sort of says it. He also said his opinions on vaccines are irrelevant. And thank goodness he's not prompting people to take his advice because he recently posted a photo of himself and his grandchildren swimming in Rock Creek, which is closed swimming because it's used for sewer runoff, E. Coli. He did look good, like he's in good shape, but it was pretty like astonishing that he's. I was sort of like, whoa, I won't even go in there with like rubber brush boots essentially. But he really seems out of it in some ways. But he seems to be just plodding on and cutting things that are critically important for kids especially and safety of all of us. But any thoughts on RFK and his swim?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think that's noise.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Whatever. The bare thais is noise the key to your story and what we should in my opinion be zeroing in on because it's more substantive than the head of one of the biggest agencies and who sets the tone for where we allocate resources to try and keep America healthy. Him claiming that he doesn't give medical advice is such just an outrageous lie. He has been one of the strongest anti vaccine advocates. That is medical advice. He has written a book, the Real Anthony Fauci. A book, A best selling book. Kennedy offered medical perspective contradicting mainstream public health guidance. He's promoted alternatives to COVID 19 treatments. Medical advice he's made, I think it's called thimerosal claims. For years, Kennedy has advised people to avoid vaccines containing thimerosal. That is medical advice. EMF health claims. Kennedy has suggested electromagnetic fields from wireless technology pose serious health risk. That is medical advice. Discussions about his own medical conditions, talking about measles and rubella claims about medical conditions in children. He gives more fucking medical advice than.

[Kara Swisher]

A surgeon general and he presides over a medical organization. That's the thing I think he's saying, I don't think people should be taking medical advice from me, which is such. It's so disingenuous is what you're saying.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Essentially he realizes what he has said. This guy is literally the best friend measles and rubella ever had. Right? They're like, oh my God, we're back.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right. We thought we were out of business, but this guy wants to Put us back on a global tour. He wants to first stop Texas in really crazy conservative places. We're back. Back for a limited time only. Oh, maybe it's going to be an extended time. Bringing you, you know, this, this band from the 50s and 60s, measles and rubella. This guy is so. And the problem is he's very handsome, he's very compelling. He is very good on some issues, on the environment, in my opinion, on Israel, he's powerful. You want to like him. And this guy is so up in the head and dangerous when it comes to medical advice and vaccines. And this is the guy figuring out where we're going to allocate resources. He's fucking hired so many really good, thoughtful people who save lives. And again, it's this death by a thousand cuts. There's going to be kids, there's going to be more death, disease and disability because this guy is in office. And for him to say, you shouldn't take medical. He's trying to backtrack because some of the shit he has said lately, whether it's we represent X percent nobody, there was no diabetes when I was a kid. And he is constantly spewing misinformation.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I just point out the stream thing? I know it's a distraction, but it's not actually because it shows the same kind of lack of care. I mean, if even one person goes in that stream, like he's in there with children, it's poop, it's E. Coli, it's shit. He's saying something rather disturbing. Look, he can do whatever he wants. If he wants to swim and shit, good luck, Robert. I can't believe he continues to survive, but with all the stuff he does. But I think it is important that he's doing that. Like, here's the head of the Health and Human Services swimming in a sewer and saying, hey, I'm having fun. I don't think it's a distraction. I think it says exactly what you are saying here.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Anyways, I think that there's a lot of people. Secretary Hagstadt puts us in the most immediate danger because incompetence, overseeing the largest military in the world is just dangerous on a short term basis. But over the medium and the long term, more death, disease and disability. Unnecessary death, disease and disability will be spread by RFK Jr and I don't say that lightly. That is a terrible thing to say about someone and I think there's a lot of evidence backing that statement up.

[Kara Swisher]

I would agree. As you said before, planes were not having all these near misses when Pete Buttigieg was in there. Things weren't falling off of aircraft carriers before pre tech set and stuff like that. And in this case, I agree it's a lot. Long term danger, especially with the decimation of science. And everything he does is always either performative, grotesque and always dangerous for people's health. And to. For just. He's really one of the more dangerous.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And this whole make America healthy again is such a fucking distraction.

[Kara Swisher]

It is, I agree.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Granted. No doubt, no doubt we need to look at our food supply and sugar.

[Kara Swisher]

No doubt it's hard to find sugar in Scott's apartment. Everybody, just so you know.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, you know why? Because I have money and I can buy, I can buy healthy food. I can go to doctors. No, I'm trying to make a serious point here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

If these guys were serious about health of America, they would have a more progressive tax structure.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

That would, that would literally be if you wanted to increase the health of America. Give kids access, get rid of food deserts, give kids access to good healthy food, make it such that people have the time to exercise and they don't. You know. The best thing you could do for the health of America? $25 an hour minimum wage.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. Like we say, 100%. You're upset, Scott. President running for President of America. All right, one more quick break and we'll be back for predictions. I'm excited to hear a prediction. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, first off, while I would enjoy way I'm all down, I think the American public should be down with him getting that 747 on one condition. They paint along the side of it. It says Qatar's. Yeah, I think that, I think that that would be the trade. But anyways, being serious, my prediction is the following. The plane's not going to happen, Cara. These people, they're so amateur and I've been saying for a while they're so good at the grift. They got this grift wrong. Because. Because here's the thing. The nsa, the CIA, the Secret Service, who's charged with the President's safety are going to say, you realize a very small amount of C2 explosive could be put anywhere on this plane that has the wiring of a hospital complex. And if they at some point decided they didn't like who was on the plane, including you. So in order for this plane plane to live up to vet security standards and protocols, they would have to disassemble it and reassemble it and that would cost approximately $1 billion. He can't take this plane. Not because he's not a criminal, not because he doesn't want it, not because they're not willing to give it. But his security apparatus is going to sit down with him and say, we need to have an adult conversation with you. You can't have a foreign government giving you, you a piece of technology that you're flying in at 40,000ft. We can't ensure your safety. And the only way we'd be able to do that is to take the thing down to a series of 48,000 parts and then put it back together again. Do you remember? It reminds me of. Do you remember when we let the Russians build our embassy in Moscow?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, that's right. It was full of like the same devices.

[Unnamed Speaker]

They would just literally they would start hammering pieces of the wall and they'd find listing devices everywhere.

[Kara Swisher]

Everywhere. Like concrete. Yeah, that's right.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Finally they're said there's no way, there's no way we can make this thing ever secure. So they said just demolish the thing. So anyways, my prediction is the plane thing's not going to happen. Let me put it this way. It's not going to be Air Force One.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, well, Boeing's been building one, right? Correct. It's just taking too long for Trump. He wants a fancier, slicker plane. He's so, ugh, gross. He's so grote. And also by the way, I think you're right because the plane is a real symbol. It's not a little grift, it's like a big flying, huge fucking grift.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Huge symbol of our power.

[Kara Swisher]

Symbol, symbol of real life.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I love that. One of my favorite photographs I was trying to get a print of it was when China was waving their finger at us and telling us not to go to Taiwan. And Nancy Pelosi showed up in an a very American looking plane and they parked the plane behind her and there she was in high heels and a pink pantsuit and it was just like fucking a. I love America. 77 year old woman gets on a plane for 14 hours, figures out a woman to look fabulous and takes a picture and heels in front of our plane. I thought that was really a great image.

[Kara Swisher]

Compliment of Nancy Pelosi. That's a new one. Anyway, I like the speaker. Yeah, so anyway, I have just a very brief thing. The New York Times just came out with a piece. Again, speaking of this kind of thing, this group called the Technology Transparency Projects is nonprofit that focuses on accountability for Tech said that. Let me read the lead. More than a year after researchers first warned that X was potentially violating US Sanctions by accepting payments or subscription accounts from terrorist organizations and other groups barred from doing business in the country, Elon Musk's social media platform continues to accept such payments, according to this report. This new report, we had said that he wasn't gonna stop a year a while ago, so we got that one right. Just so you know. Anyway, once again, they just love him, a terrorist. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-Pivot elsewhere in the Scott universe, this week on Prof. G Conversations, Scott spoke with Timothy Snyder, a leading historian of authoritarianism, Ukraine and Eastern Europe. I've interviewed him, too, but just the news recently. He's moving to Canada, he and his wife, I believe. But let's listen to a clip.

[I]

When we make enemies unnecessarily, we are encouraging terrorism. So it's not just that we're putting our defenses down, which we're clearly doing. It's also that we're inviting the offense, which we're also clear, clearly doing. What the Trump people are doing is draining American power out of the system because the international system, our power in the international system depended upon, among other things, relationships, trust, alliances, reliability, treaties. But everybody else's power remains. Everybody else is now more relatively powerful with respect to us. And so, of course, they can now afford to think about interventions and adventures which they wouldn't have been able to think about before. I agree completely.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you like that conversation? He's really smart.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I love that stuff. I'm fascinated by it. But just, just, just for the, for the record, because I asked him, I said, why did you move to Canada? And he said that it didn't have anything to do with the current political climate, that it was a lifestyle.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And also life. Yeah. And also they did, they did a story, I think, in the Times Today about that. And there was a little bit, there was some of, like, you can't go away from history. I believe they definitely did. He and his wife, they're sort of a power couple, a history department power couple. His wife, Marcy Shore, they're all going to Toronto. But there was some element of, you can't escape history. And this is not a good situation to be in. We'll see how many scholars actually leave. There's a move and the new head of NIH was.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Well, they're being recruited. I know firsthand. They're being recruited.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they're being recruited by, say, France, for example, the new head of the nih, who's I think, is a loudmouth.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And China.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And the uk. I mean, I'm telling you, folks, the best and brightest at these universities are getting calls, offers for money, intellectual and academic freedom. But we were talking about this guy moving to Canada. It's interesting, you know why? That you can't actually. A guy who's from Boston is not. You can't bury him in Toronto. You know why?

[Kara Swisher]

No. Oh, no.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Because he's still alive.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, it's just an interesting time. The head of the NIH said about France taking scientists. He goes, oh, it's a nice place to visit. What an idiot. What a stupid idiot. In that way, people are thinking about this, at the very least, which is they never would have in a million years.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Is that a trend?

[Kara Swisher]

It's a trend. It's a trend. We're not moving. We're staying here. I'm gonna stay in Scott's apartment and never leave. Okay, that's the show. Thank for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is growing quite smartly. We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Today's show is produced by Lara Naimon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Bernie Andershot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Silverio, and Dan Shalon. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Louis Swisher. Congratulations. Well done. Graduation. I need Kara to keep doing this podcast thing, so I need you to go to grad school. We need to lock her down. She needs the money. Grad school, my friend.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, happy birthday. Louie too.