Holiday Spending Surge, Fed Chair Future, and Melania's Production Company

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary

Episode: Holiday Spending Surge, Fed Chair Future, and Melania's Production Company
Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway

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Overview

This episode dives into the post-Thanksgiving retail landscape, the trends and implications of record holiday spending, coming changes at the Federal Reserve, the ethical questions surrounding tech investor David Sachs’ White House role, and the business—and controversy—of Melania Trump’s new production company. As always, hosts Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway blend sharp business analysis with biting wit, offering insights into the latest developments in tech, business, and politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holiday Spending Surge: Who's Buying and What It Means

[05:00 – 17:35]

• Record Black Friday Spending
  • Online spending hit $11.8 billion (up 9% YoY); overall holiday sales expected to approach $1 trillion.
  • Most growth attributed to inflation, not higher purchase volumes.

    “People actually bought fewer. Order volumes dropped 1%, prices jumped 7%.” – Kara [06:01]

• High Income vs. Middle/Lower Income Shoppers
  • Spending held up for the wealthy, but middle & lower-income families are pulling back.
  • The economy's increased reliance on top earners makes it more fragile.

    “The top 10% can cut their discretionary spending by 70% on a dime. If you take the top 10% out, the economy's basically flat.” – Scott [09:53]

• Stock Market's Effect on Spending
  • Economic confidence tied to S&P/Nasdaq performance, particularly for wealthy consumers.
  • AI stocks’ volatility directly influences luxury and discretionary spending behavior.
• AI's Role in Retail
  • AI-driven bots and tools contributed to about a 10% increase in online sales; in-store sales remained flat.
  • AI traffic to retail sites up 800%, per Scott [11:59].
• Rise of "Buy Now, Pay Later"
  • Significant increase in BNPL, especially among younger shoppers and surprisingly, even high earners.

    “41% of shoppers age 16 to 24 use buy now, pay later… Even 38% of people making over $100k.” – Scott [12:24]

  • Hosts criticize BNPL as disguised debt and worry about its systemic risk, drawing parallels to the subprime crisis.

    “It's usury. It takes advantage of them and it makes it feel like it's free… we're encouraging ridiculous spending well beyond people's ability to buy.” – Kara [14:00]

• Prediction for Holiday Sales
  • If markets, especially AI stocks, hold up, spending will stay strong. Otherwise, retail could falter sharply.

    “If the stock market keeps going up or it recovers, especially with AI stocks… I think it's going to be an AI Christmas.” – Scott [16:18]

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2. Fed Chair Speculation: Who Will Trump Pick?

[17:33 – 22:33]

• Donald Trump teases his Federal Reserve Chair pick but doesn’t name names.
• Kevin Hassett emerges as a rumored frontrunner, but his credibility is questioned.
  • Hosts note his history of public obsequiousness and controversial economic predictions.

    “He wrote a book that was completely wrong.” – Kara [19:07]

• Scott’s preference: a wonky economist like Austan Goolsbee, Justin Wolfers, or Janet Yellen (“I want someone who’s just a total fucking wonk and sits by the fire with their Labrador and just looks through data all day long.” – Scott [18:53])
• Trump is unlikely to consider any of Scott's picks; both joke about Trump appointing family members.
• General consensus: Hassett isn’t the worst possible pick, but selection is more about loyalty than expertise.
• Anecdote: Kara and Jamie Dimon clashed over China’s innovation at a dinner years ago.

  “He was lecturing me about China and the Internet and I was not having it.” – Kara [21:41]

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3. David Sachs: Tech Bro in the White House

[23:54 – 31:17]

• Potential Conflicts of Interest
  • New York Times reports on Sachs’ dual roles: tech investor and White House AI/crypto czar.
  • Sachs received ethics waivers and claims to have sold most conflicting assets, but NYT identified over 700 investments that could benefit from his policymaking.
• Critique from Industry Insiders
  • Tech leaders (Benioff, Andreessen) rush to Sachs’ defense after what hosts call “a mild criticism” from the NYT.

    “This is such an insider game…this is about the rich getting their shit and telling us what to do.” – Kara [26:17]

• The Real Problem: Systemic Cronyism
  • Scott argues the real issue is a government system that allows, even incentivizes, such conflicts.

    “Everything you own, everything you have an interest in should be put in a blind trust.” – Scott [28:16]

  • Kara notes Sachs isn’t bringing in diverse voices or prioritizing AI safety.

    “He zeroes out people who like Anthropic who have just a little bit of concern for people.” – Kara [28:58]

• Bottom Line
  • The episode frames Sachs’ actions as the latest example of influence-peddling in Washington—just with a tech bro twist.

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4. Trump’s Immigration Clampdown

[31:19 – 35:00]

• After the fatal shooting of a National Guard member (allegedly by an Afghan national), Trump launches sweeping immigration restrictions, including a freeze on migration from “third world countries” and threats to denaturalize Americans deemed unpatriotic.
• Hosts highlight the economic harm and national security risks of abandoning those who assisted the US abroad.

  “If the people over there don't feel as if America's gonna look after them if they…aid us…we put our service men and women in greater peril.” – Scott [34:05]

• Kara notes that such broad crackdowns damage America’s status as a global talent magnet and create unnecessary tragedies.

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5. Melania’s Vanity Production Company

[39:01 – 44:42]

• Muse Films Launch and Its First Project
  • Melania Trump launches a production company; her debut project, Melania, is set for release by Amazon MGM Studios for a reported $40 million.
• Industry Norms vs. Unprecedented Grift
  • Celebrity-led production companies aren’t new (Obamas, Markles), but previous first families waited until after office to seek deals.

    “The first lady should not be entering into commercial agreements in exchange for Wink, wink… I'll make sure this acquisition does or does not go through.” – Scott [41:17]

  • The $40M price tag is criticized as paying for regulatory access, not content.
• Melania’s Contribution as First Lady
  • Scott: “I think she's the worst First Lady in history. I don't think she does anything redeeming.” [42:14]
• Ethics and Personal Commentary
  • Both hosts lampoon Melania’s motives and the transactional nature of the arrangement.
  • Kara, on Melania: “She's been for sale from the get go since she took a plane over here. Come on. Let's be clear what she is. It's just the price.” [43:31]
  • Memorable moment: Both hosts riff on Melania’s bloody Christmas trees as her sole creative highlight (“What a bitch. I love her for this.” – Kara [44:07])

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6. Wins & Fails

[48:10 – 62:19]

Kara:

• Win: Praise for late playwright Tom Stoppard and a strong recommendation for the TV show Pluribus (“Run, don’t walk.” [50:23])
• Fail: Tech leaders’ perpetual “ridiculous sensitivity” and defensiveness.

  “…the continued ridiculous sensitivity of the grifters of tech who pretend that they're doing this for all of us when they're doing it for them.” [50:24]

Scott:

• Win: Enthusiasm for the new Knives Out movie and Daniel Craig’s performance.

• Fail (controversial): Critiques society’s over-reliance on therapy as the universal solution for life’s challenges, arguing for broader structural fixes—jobs, housing, better safety nets.

  “You can't therapy your way out of material precarity…mental health improves to the point where they may not need to speak to a $200 an hour therapist.” [57:18, 59:50]

• Both recount brief, failed experiences with therapy and agree that a broader, more holistic approach to well-being is essential.

  “The therapist was like, you're fine, you can go. It was like, I don't, I agree with you.” – Kara [57:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The top 10% can cut their discretionary spending by 70% on a dime.” – Scott [09:53]
• “It's usury…we're encouraging ridiculous spending well beyond people's ability to buy.” – Kara [14:00]
• “I want someone who's just a total fucking wonk and sits by the fire with their Labrador and just looks through data all day long.” – Scott [18:53]
• “This is such an insider game…this is about the rich getting their shit and telling us what to do.” – Kara [26:17]
• “Everything you own, everything you have an interest in should be put in a blind trust.” – Scott [28:16]
• “If the people over there don't feel as if America's gonna look after them if they…aid us…we put our service men and women in greater peril.” – Scott [34:05]
• “The first lady should not be entering into commercial agreements in exchange for Wink, wink... I'll make sure this acquisition does or does not go through.” – Scott [41:17]
• “She's been for sale from the get go since she took a plane over here. Come on. Let's be clear what she is. It's just the price.” – Kara [43:31]
• “What a bitch. I love her for this... If this film is like that, I'm gonna watch it.” – Kara (on Melania’s blood red Christmas trees) [44:07]
• “You can't therapy your way out of material precarity.” – Scott [57:18]
• “The therapist was like, you're fine, you can go. It was like, I don't, I agree with you.” – Kara [57:54]

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Final Thoughts

As always, Kara and Scott’s banter is both incisive and irreverent, mixing economic and political analysis with real talk about power, privilege, and pretense. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of tech, policy, and society—plus there’s plenty of humor to leaven the heavy subject matter.

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For further questions or contributions, listeners are encouraged to submit at nymag.com/pivot or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from BetterHelp. The holidays are a time of traditions, but it's also a time to reflect on what traditions mean to you. Better help can ensure you take time for yourself during what can be a very joyful but sometimes hectic and lonely time of the year. BetterHelp does the initial matching work to find the right therapist for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com pivot that's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com pivot this episode is brought to you by On Investing, an.

[Kara Swisher]

Original podcast from Charles Schwab.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist.

[Kara Swisher]

And I'm Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience.

[Scott Galloway]

Studying the indicators that drive the economy.

[Kara Swisher]

And how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot.

[Scott Galloway]

Of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help.

[Kara Swisher]

So download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this show comes from MongoDB. You're a developer who wants to innovate. Instead, you're stuck fixing bottlenecks and fighting legacy code. MongoDB can help. It's a flexible, unified platform that's built for developers by developers. MongoDB is acid compliant enterprise ready with the capabilities you need to ship AI apps fast. That's why so many of the Fortune 500 trust MongoDB with their most critical workloads. Ready to think outside rows and columns. Start building at mongod.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, I want to be clear. I think we're all for sale to a certain extent. I don't begrudge her. I've done worse things for a lot less money than sleep with Donald Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, how was your Thanksgiving? I saw a beautiful picture with you and your sons.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, isn't that nice? Yeah, it was, you know, the highlight of it was my oldest brought two friends from boarding school home. Oh, and they say that from about British folk. Yeah, British folk. Both British kids. And they say that the key indicator of your son's outcome is his peer group from a certain point on. And it just made me feel so good about his prospects. These kids are such good kids. You know, you want to say impressive kids and all that one's implying or got a view at Cambridge. But they're both just like lovely, nice men.

[Kara Swisher]

So there wasn't any like rich kid loosh thing, you know, British rich kid thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, they had to sneak out to go score ketamine.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Of course.

[Scott Galloway]

But they. But other than that. And you know, they yelled at the help.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, good.

[Scott Galloway]

But other than that, they were really. I'm kidding about all of this.

[Kara Swisher]

I understand.

[Scott Galloway]

Really lovely young men. And it made me feel much more safe and less worried about myself.

[Kara Swisher]

Good, good. And they have not done Thanksgiving. Right. That's not a thing they do in the. In the.

[Scott Galloway]

Not a British thing. So they were excited to come home and it was. Yeah, it was. It was really nice. How was your time?

[Kara Swisher]

Did you make them act out the pilgrim? The ridiculous pilgrim's.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you know me in American, you know, history. I just am such a.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't know it was Thanksgiving till Wednesday night when my calendar. The next day.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't have any preparation, do you? You don't do any.

[Scott Galloway]

Why would I? Comparative advantage.

[Kara Swisher]

What do you mean, comparative advantage?

[Scott Galloway]

Daddy does one thing, he pays the fricking bills. Daddy is the nuclear reactor powering this aircraft.

[Kara Swisher]

He did a side dish. I didn't do anything either. What am I talking about?

[Scott Galloway]

Don't describe Amanda as a side dish.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, she's good looking, but her mom does it all. Her mom and her dad.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, you had it at the in laws.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. We went up to Boston, but first I got to see the boys and we had a lovely family dinner. The four kids, they look great. They look great. And I worked out with Alex and hung out with Louie and stuff like that. And then we went up to Boston, which was fun. Which the Gats is put on a good Thanksgiving, I have to say. Very.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Amanda strikes me as someone who has well adjusted parents.

[Kara Swisher]

Indeed. There were seven pies, which was nice. And I got a special pumpkin pie. Cause I like pumpkin. And they never made it, but they made me one which was very nice. I almost cried. It was delicious.

[Scott Galloway]

That's nice. That's nice. What do you got going on this week?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, lots of things. Gosh, I've got to do just. I'm going to do something interesting. There's this 100th anniversary of the New Yorker and I'll be interviewing. I like the New York radio God, you're not. I'm staying at your place.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, they wrote a critical review of my book, so I am canceling the subscription.

[Kara Swisher]

The documentary by, I think it's Judd Apatow did the documentary and it's on Netflix and they asked me to come and interview them at the event. So I'm gonna do that for my friend David Rudnick. I love the New Yorker. I think it's done a great job over the many years.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't know it was still around.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh my God. It's really successful actually. It's one of those like Wired. Yes, it's doing just fine. Connie Nast. Not all of it is, but Wired's doing great and New Yorker's doing great. And Vogue to an extent. I'm just saying it still puts out quality, quality work. And then what else am I doing? I'm just here. I don't have to travel. Scott. Which, except for that just trip to New York is super easy. But I'm coming up and coming back. But I'm here. I'm going to Christmas parties. I'm very excited to be home.

[Scott Galloway]

What's the hottest invite in Christmas parties in dc?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I don't know. I don't. We're going to friends.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, Matt Gates. I bet he throws a good party.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think he's still here. I think he's trolling little girls down in Florida. I'm not a big partygoer, Scott. I told you, I'm not very social. I'm not like you. I'm not very. I don't like parties that much. I like small gatherings. That's what I like. Anyway, Thanksgiving was great. I'm looking forward. My birthday's coming up. Obviously you preparing to buy me a present.

[Scott Galloway]

That's very excited about that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Otherwise I'm just here. I'm very excited to be in Washington. But Thanksgiving was nice. It's a. I like Thanksgiving. It's. I think it's one of my favorite holidays. Anyway, we have a lot to get to today. There's so much. And speaking of like the news didn't friggin stop all weekend. It was kind of crazy and a lot of it really quite grotesque. Including the double bombing of people. You know, you bomb someone and then you go rescue them after you bomb them. But we'll get to that. We've got a lot to get today, including tech. Stocks are still on this crazy roller coaster. We're gonna talk about consumer spending. Cause it's something you've talked A lot about. But those numbers are starting to come in. And then Trump's AIs are David Sachs reaping his White House benefits. Of course, he's losing his mind because it's a mild criticism of his inbredness. But first, shoppers turned out in force, as we said, for Black Friday spending both record breaking amount, both online and stores. Online spending alone hit $11.8 billion, up about 9% from last year. And overall sales were up around 4%, which is an enormous. A lot of the growth is just inflation though, not people going wild with their wallets. People actually bought fewer. Order volumes dropped 1%, prices jumped 7%. Another twist, which Scott, you talked about all the time. Higher income shoppers are spending like usual, but middle and lower income families are pulling back. Retailers are somewhat optimistic about the holiday season overall with sales expected to top a trillion dollars for the first time ever. Again, inflation, you know, you talk about this. If the, if the rich people pull back, that's a real problem. But obviously middle and lower income families are feeling the pinch from inflation. And so they're buying, as Trump said, you don't need so many dolls. And apparently they are not buying so many dolls. And then there's the tariffs, et cetera. Talk about this, about, you know, you ran a retail business, an online retail business. What does this mean? What do you think is happening here?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, there's a lot there. The reason why, I mean, in addition to the kind of moral problem or societal problem of having a top 10% responsible for 50% of the consumer economy, what that says about our economy is that it makes the economy more fragile because 60, 70, 80% of spend from a middle class household, probably closer to 90% are things they can't adjust up or down. They're going to have to figure out a way either on credit or to get a second job to maintain, to continue to pay to their mortgage or for groceries. Whereas when Oracle, I mean, Oracle's off, I figured it's off like 24%. It's down, it's down 22% the last 30 days.

[Kara Swisher]

The markets are still rocky again as we tape the s and P500, the Nasdaq all down. Palantir was down 16% in November, its worst month since August 2023. Nvidia ended November down 12%. Oracle fell 28% last month. Morgan Stanley analysts are warning that Oracle's credit conditions could worsen next year. You think so? Put that all in there because that's the big spenders presumably, right?

[Scott Galloway]

The consumer Confidence for, for the top 10% is based on the most damaging metrics ever invented for Western society, and that's the S and P and the Nasdaq. Because more indicative or fruitful metrics would be like self harm or suicide or body mass index or what Bhutan does, a happiness index, whatever it might be, or divorce things that actually drive purpose and meaning. And wealthy households will buy based on a number. They look at the value of their stock market portfolio and when it's really high, they feel comfortable going to Van Cleef and Arpels and giving money away to nonprofits and spending money on nicer vacations, whatever it might be, buying another car. And the thing about wealthy people that makes this economy less, more fragile or less robust is that if Palantir goes down 80%, which it easily could easily. And if Oracle went down 60%, C above easily could, and Nvidia went down 70%, which it easily could. Right. What the top 10% are capable of doing, which the bottom 90 are not, is the top 10% on a dime could cut their discretionary spending by 70%.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Will they though? Will they feel not as jolly or what? You know.

[Scott Galloway]

You can correlate fractional jet ownership and inquiries to the stock market. You can correlate the amount of inbound. I've done the analysis. My speaking inbounds, well, I track very closely. I love data. The number of inbound inquiries I get for speaking gigs I've created. I've tried to create artificial scarcity around my speaking. The sexiest word in the English language is no. I don't like to travel, so I charge crazy fucking rates. That's my rate. Crazy.

[Kara Swisher]

I hear it from people when I go speak for lesser amounts.

[Scott Galloway]

My price card is crazy or free. And I can correlate the number of inquiries I get to the stock market. Because when Salesforce, when I'm speaking at an investment bank's annual gathering, M and A is way up. And all of a sudden these niche investment banks are asking me to come speak. Why? Because they're making record fees. So when all of a sudden. That's the dangerous thing about an economy relying on the top 10%, it's not only morally problematic, it makes it very fragile because they can take spending down on a dime. And if you take the top 10% out, the economy's basically flat. And then if you add in inflation, you could make an argument that spending is down now in terms of attributes that I think are a little bit more interesting about or are interesting about this Black Friday One AI did play a role. Kind of these AI tools and bots were responsible for. I think they think that about 10% or a 10% increase was due to AI tools and that. So in store sales were basically flat. They were just up 1%.

[Kara Swisher]

Online was up 10%.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. But also AI driven traffic to US retail stores soared 800% or 9X. So AI is starting to creep into retail. The stat that people aren't talking about that I think is really important and quite frankly very upsetting. And a negative forward looking indicator is that Buy Now, Pay later usage surged on Black Friday and it's up 9% overall.

[Kara Swisher]

With young people or everybody?

[Scott Galloway]

Young people. 41% of shoppers age 16 to 24 use buy now, Pay Later. And millennials get this increase their usage 87% compared to 2024. Even 38% of people making over 100k are now using Buy Now, Pay Later.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, we hate those. We hate, by the way, just for listeners, we hate Buy Now, Pay Later. We think it's.

[Scott Galloway]

And you can't infantilize people. They get to use their own credit. You know, people get to decide if they want to use credit or not. But the thing I hate about the positioning of these things is they somehow frame it as innovation and that it's not actual debt. It's. It's a new culture. Young people don't want to get caught in a debt. It's debt.

[Kara Swisher]

It's you siree, it's debt. I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

And if you don't pay it back, I mean, the innovation is they take the initial vig, the initial interest rate from the retailer. Because what happens is I was on the board overn Outfitters and the initial Buy now, pay later guys came to us and said, let us do this. We offer people automatic credit. They're checking out and say, would you like an additional $100, $200 in purchasing power and someone's headed to Coachella. Yeah. And they go back and they fill up their basket and, and we pay the fees. Urban Outfitters pays a small portion of that incremental purchase back to the BMW. It's a great business model, except all you're really doing is tapping into the urgency, the need for now.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

And a lot of these kids end up, a lot of young people end up in debt. I don't know what to do about it because you can't infantilize young people. And they need the whole thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, except that it makes it. It's sort of like the subprime mortgage. Of course. You can buy a house. I was seeing bits and pieces of that movie that it was based on because I wanted to go back because of the situation.

[Scott Galloway]

The big short.

[Kara Swisher]

The big short. Michael Burry is in the news obviously and I have to say like the people who are selling, of course they can't afford it. Just load them up. Like it's not infantilizing people to say you're not credit worthy, you're just not right. And to give people sort of these long lead. I don't know, I think it's usury. I think it takes advantage of them and it makes it feel like it's free and therefore it, it spurs spending. Like you said, like go in and get more. I just don't. They can't pay back. And then we're stuck in sort of this credit squeeze and then the retailers will be eventually or whoever's holding these loans and it just go, it just iterates through the system that we're encouraging like ridiculous spending well beyond people's ability to buy. I was in a store and they were pushing on me. I'm like, I'm taking your shitty, like buy now, pay later. Like I don't need to and I'm not gonna. So let me. We're going to another important story, but what do you imagine is where spending is going to end up in December down. What does it depend on really?

[Scott Galloway]

Briefly tell me where the market's going to be in December.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Even up to Christmas. Yeah, you're right a little bit.

[Scott Galloway]

The media is obsessed with the metrics around the market. And if stocks and AI stocks hold on, I think you're going to see more spending. And also these. This is why I was talking to a kid today. I was negotiating a new job. This is why options and equity is where you want to negotiate around salary. If you're working for a big company because you're up against godlike technology to try and sequester you from your relationships and figure out the exact right offer at the exact right moment to take every conceivable dollar and all your debt capacity from you. And I want to be clear, up until the age of 20, 35 or 40, I spent everything that came through my hands. I just. Oh, I have a. I could. Well, you know, at the exact right moment. Oh, just for $80 more you can upgrade to business class. Oh, why not a pair of bomba socks with these new pair on. I mean it is just impossible. It is so difficult to have the discipline to save money. So what you want is you want for savings.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And equity or some into a certain extent, housing. The reason why housing has built so much wealth, it's not because it's outperformed other asset classes, but because it's, it's a form of forced savings.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

That's why 401k tax advantaged vehicles. But basically if people feel, if the stock market keeps going up or it recovers, especially with AI stocks, that's what. And then AI will come in with great offers. And I think it's going to be an AI Christmas. Everyone's going to be talking about how much traffic AI drove.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And I think you're going to see luxury brands continue to do better and better. But tell me, what if the week before, I mean this is the dirty secret of retail. I started a company called red envelope. About 46 weeks a year we lose money and then for six weeks we print it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Basically from a week before Thanksgiving to New Year's, full price flattering women's inbox, full margin and you just print, print money. So this is really kind of very, very important to retail. But I think that, I mean Amazon saying that headphones that were $300 are now on sale today for $299 I wouldn't call is really courageous and what I'm, I'm hoping for me, I kept going browsing all these sites who were offering emotional stability on sale. That's the Black Friday I need, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

So speaking of stability, Donald Trump says he's made his pick for the next Fed chair, though he's not sharing a name yet. National Economic Council director Kevin Hassett, probably excellent suck up I've ever seen, is a rumored frontrunner with several current and former Fed governors also in the mix. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who previously said he didn't want the job, said last week that Trump could announce the nominee before Christmas. All of this is happening as the Fed prepares to meet later this month for a closely watched interest rate decision, which people aren't really sure about. Two things I think Hassett is like literally and so many economists I talk to have always thought he was smart. Now are like what happened to Hassett essentially. And of course he sucks up continually and I would say lies on, on, on the air quite a bit about where inflation is and numbers like he did one about gas prices, none of which was factual and he had to be fact checked on in real time and he just kept smiling like an idiot throughout the whole thing. Do you have someone, you have a dark horse, you think and then what do you think they'll cut rates in. In their. And when they meet later this month?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I mean, he's not going to consider the people I'd want. I'd want to go. I'd want something like Austan Goolsbee or Justin Woofers or. I like. I think Janet Yellen was fantastic. I want someone who's just a total fucking wonk and sits by the fire with their Labrador and just looks through data all day long.

[Kara Swisher]

That's not happening.

[Scott Galloway]

We could do a lot worse than this guy. He's known for writing a book that could not have been more wrong. He tried to predict the market, and that's a difficult question.

[Kara Swisher]

We could do worse. He wrote a book that was completely wrong.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, I know, but he does. Okay. He isn't an economist in the Research and statistics department. In 1992, he did serve in the Treasury Department under Clinton and Bush. He's not a dumb man.

[Kara Swisher]

And also, people think he's lost his mind. Every economist I talked to liked him and now does not like him.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me. Not my pick. It could be worse. I wouldn't. I just wouldn't have put it past.

[Kara Swisher]

And that's where we are.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't have put it past him to appoint Don Jr.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, he would get fired anyways.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't. This is not who I would have picked. I would have renominated Chairman Powell. I would have said, hey, you can leave anytime. Will you do this for another three or four years? He's not listening to me. But I actually, when I first saw this, I thought, yeah, not ideal. Could be a lot worse.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. Any other names you think? Just all of it, out of the blue. Could be Don Jr. You're 100% right.

[Scott Galloway]

They just. At this point, if he had a.

[Kara Swisher]

Pet, it could be his pet. That's where we are.

[Scott Galloway]

I actually, if someone had said, guess who it's going to be? I would have thought it would have been Besant.

[Kara Swisher]

Another thirsty person who's lost his reputation again.

[Scott Galloway]

You're asking me who I thought he was going to appoint, not who I think he should appoint. But. Yeah, I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought it was Hass. He's been all over the airwaves. And that's what Trump likes. Right? He's been all over the. He can't shut his.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, Kevin Warren. She's a former Fed governor. Christopher Waller. The thing about Trump is he does take. He clearly doesn't take national defense seriously. He clearly doesn't take the health of America. Seriously. The Department of Education, he just thinks is a joke. He thinks it's a joke and he's almost angry at it. And he puts a woman in charge who when asked about AI, describes it as a one. She thinks it's steak sauce.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But around the economy, he at least appears to acknowledge the person has to have at least taken statistics in high school. He will appoint an economist and he.

[Kara Swisher]

Should put Jamie Dimon in the job. Not that he would take it.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't think Jamie's that wonky. I think Jamie would be a good treasury secretary, but not chairman of the President.

[Kara Swisher]

He wants to be president of Trump.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I think Jamie. I wouldn't be speaking of all over the place.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, he's going to an opening of a door anyway. We'll see.

[Scott Galloway]

He won't come on our pod, though. I keep inviting him.

[Kara Swisher]

He won't come on mine.

[Scott Galloway]

I had his chief economist on. Really?

[Kara Swisher]

We had a very testy dinner. So he doesn't.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you and Jamie. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I think he's really smart.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, he's very smart. He's a great American.

[Kara Swisher]

He were arguing about China. He was lecturing me about China and the Internet and I was not having it. I was just like, no.

[Scott Galloway]

His chief economist, Michael Semblas is really impressive.

[Kara Swisher]

He kept saying they were copycats. I'm like, they are to an extent, but they're actually getting very innovative. This was years ago.

[Scott Galloway]

That's the key to economic growth. What do you think we did?

[Kara Swisher]

That's what I said.

[Scott Galloway]

We stole textile manufacturing technology from Europe.

[Kara Swisher]

And then we got innovative, kidnapped their.

[Scott Galloway]

Artisans to build up and down the Eastern seaboard factories.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. But then we did something with it. Right. And I said, I think there's a lot of innovation. This was years ago. I said, in cars, in all kinds of areas, like in manufacturing. And we just got into it. It was very funny. He's not used to being disagreed with. That's all I'd say.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I like him.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm impressed. Very impressed.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm impressed by him. He just won't do an interview with me. But that's.

[Scott Galloway]

But you won't do it with us either. I've invited him on. You won't do it. David Solomon's coming on Prop 2.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, he's a fun guy. We've had him.

[Scott Galloway]

He's good. He's smart.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a fun guy. He really is. Anyway, let's. We'll see what happens. We think it's going to be the best suck up. Which is Kevin Hassett, who's not the worst choice. It's not Don Jr. That's how we say it's not Don Jr. Wouldn't it be funny if he gave it to Baron? All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, how David Sachs is benefiting his White House AIs are.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from netsuite. There's a lot of talk nowadays about how AI could make things easier for your business. That's okay if you're not sure what exactly that looks like in practice. Just don't let your uncertainty keep you from finding out, especially not when your competitors are already making their move. Netsuite by Oracle is your solution. With Netsuite, you can put AI to work. Today. It's a top rated AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM into a single source of truth. All that connected data is what makes NetSuite's AI smarter. So it doesn't just guess. It can intelligently automate routine tasks, deliver actionable insights, and help you cut costs and make quick decisions with confidence. It's not another bolted on tool, it's AI built into the system that runs your business. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack. Right now, get the free business guide demystifying AI at netsuite.com pivot the guide is free to you at netsuite.com pivot netsuite.com pivot. Scott we're back. Tech bros are reaping the benefits of the Trump administration as if we didn't know that. But the biggest winner might be White House AI and crypto czar David Sachs. By the way, crypto bitcoin's real down recently, by the way. According to a piece in the New York Times, which was a mild criticism and all sort of, sort of the obvious. Sachs has kept his role as Silicon Valley investor while serving as a special government employee. That's the way he gets out of it. Ethics waivers. He said he was selling or had sold most of his crypto and AI assets. But the Times found he has more than 700 tech investments that stand to benefit from policies helping shape and in fact are focused on AI. And as a White House role, he's opened the doors to his tech network and pushed to clear regulatory hurdles to firms and attacking any AI firms that don't go along. Like he did a really weird attack of anthropic as if they were part of a. I don't know. And he of course never talks about safety, never talks about anything and they all get to have dinner with Trump. So Sachs deemed the story nothing. And Tex folks of course are really in a very overly sensitive way coming to his defense. Marc Benioff said the article is almost strategic sabotage. Marc Andreessen called Sachs a credit to our nation. Let me just, I'm going to start with this. Listen, I'm thrilled we're doing lots of stuff in AI. I think we should invest in it. I've talked about it for years. But this is such an insider game for all of them. They don't have anyone who has safety issues. He zeros out people who like anthropic who have just a little bit of concern for people. This is not about the American people. This is not about democracy. This is about the rich getting their shit and telling us what to do. And they're ridiculously overweening reaction was just example of that. This was the mildest of criticisms to point this out. And they're losing their ever loving minds. And I find nothing wrong with pushing AI. I think it's a real opportunity for whatever the President is. But this is so clearly these dinners, these is grifty to the extreme and it's benefited all of them, including David Sachs. Thank you.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't even read the article. I knew what it said before I read it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. All they did was go through this companies. It was just a mathematical thing but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Look I come back to the same place and that is he's playing the game that's been set up where if you. I've never listened to the all in pod but I've seen clips of it and it strikes me that they figured out the best economic model in history is to try and his proximity and suck up to the President in hopes that he'll give he and some of your companies regulatory capture are just straight up government contracts or maybe award you TikTok at 80% off that. That's the fastest way to go from being worth 50 million to 5 billion or to get your nephew out of prison is just to show up at one of his fundraisers and say I'm in for 3 million for you renovating the East Wing. So I don't you read the article? I didn't. I don't see him doing anything different than anybody else that is engaged in this conflict of interest. And it all leads back to the same place for me I think the government to get that call to serve at the highest levels and be an official advisor in a senior policy position is extremely prestigious and it should be. And in exchange for doing that it's absolutely a signal accommodation acknowledgment of your success. And in exchange for taking that position everything you own, everything you have an interest in is put in a blind trust. And also I think we need to pay these people more. But we can't have public policy and competitive markets shaped on who has proximity to the President because anyone who doesn't ends up leaking advantage to those who do this is just more of the same.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I think that if he was going to go in and improve AI which is great idea he would look for ways we could all agree. Like he would deal with universities, he would bring in other people not fucking Mark. How many times has Marc Andreessen been to Mar a Lago? Dozens. Right. Or whatever number is. They all get to go. I haven't been asked by David Sachs. I disagree with him. I think I have some ideas like he doesn't ask critics, he doesn't ask for feedback. He's never said the word safety once at all. He's not doing this for all Americans people. He's doing it for him and his cronies and that is perfectly fine. This is not a new Washington thing where cronies don't belly up to the bar or pigs to the trough. This is not a new thing. It's just this. Every time they get criticized, like, literally, I don't even mind them, like, going crazy about this and acting like it was, oh, how dare you insult our genius. I'm so used to that bullshit. Like, because they're such victims themselves. I really got offended when he attacked Anthropic in a really. Like, he picked out, this is the AI head. He should shut his fucking mouth about individual companies. Anthropic is more safety conscious and they should be able to say it and be part of the conversation in a bigger way. And everybody, if you're the real AI advisor president, you let them hear problems too, right? You let them hear, like, criticisms. You let people in and this is just, this is just pigs at the trough. Same thing and again, not new. But when they get offended by it, it makes me exhausted by these people. They're so overly sensitive. Anyway, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me just say I find the thing that's most problematic and that, and I don't know if the NYT reported on this, he received ethics waivers in March and said that he'd sold or begun selling many conflicting assets. So I understand the conflict, I'm not guilty of it, and I'm making personal and financial sacrifice to reduce the actual in appearance of conflict. And what it ends up is he has hundreds of investments in companies that have reclassified themselves as computer or hardware that are basically AI companies.

[Kara Swisher]

They have AI in every website. That's what. That's all they did. That's all the Times did. Sorry, Marc Benioff. It isn't like strategic fucking sabotage. What is? I'm sorry, I know you're on Mark's sides, but stop it, Mark. There's no side.

[Scott Galloway]

I did not understand why Mark came.

[Kara Swisher]

To David's because he's so thirsty and wants to get in. Mark, it's so disappointing. It's just a story that shows that his companies are very much in conflict of interest. That's all. So calm the fuck down, all you dudes. Anyway. Anyway. It was so mild. It was so mild. Anyway, Donald Trump is escalating his immigration crackdowns in another area after two National Guard members were shot, one of them fatally, near the White House last weekend. And condolences to the family of that woman, National Guard woman, allegedly by an Afghan national on Thanksgiving. It's very confusing. On Thanksgiving, Trump posted, he's permanently pausing migration from, quote, third world countries, whatever that means, and is ending federal benefits for non citizens. He also, these are workers who contribute to our society. He also threatened to denaturalize Americans he claims are undermining domestic tranquility. That means you and me, Scott, I guess Trump said only reverse migration can fully cure this situation. All asylum decisions have been halted for the time being. Christy Ngo went around and said illegal things all over the place. Ian Bremmer pointed out on threads. This is basically a gift to China and any other country eager to scoop up foreign talent. It also hurts everybody, from people who take care of the elderly here to stores to factories to go after. And there were some. There was a really interesting look at Chicago and almost all there was just of the 4,000 arrests, maybe 100 had criminal problems and very few of them had serious problems. It was more like they missed an appointment versus. Versus Anything serious. I think the number of serious people was a dozen of the 4,000 people. It was mostly hardworking people that they targeted and violently, I would say. So thoughts on this? I mean, from an economic point of view, this is. And denaturalize Americans. How in the hell can you do that?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, this is just awful on a number of levels. And we don't know if this person had a mental health episode or. And I don't mean to diminish the tragedy here, but I mean, watching Secretary Noem put herself in knots trying to blame the Biden administration for setting in place the policies that the Trump administration then granted this individual sum. And by the way, I think it's really important that when we have people supporting and collaborating with us and saving American servicemen's life and taking huge risks.

[Kara Swisher]

Themselves, like in Vietnam, we did it every. Every moment ago.

[Scott Galloway]

Repatriating them, giving them opportunities to immigrate here if this threatens that. I think that's just awful because, I mean, there's a bigger issue around letting the best and brightest come to our nation at all levels of the kind of labor stack. But I think we do we weaken or we put our servicemen and women in much greater peril when we are not taken seriously or the promise of getting you out of a hostile territory when you decide you know these people, if you don't get these people out and after you've abandoned Afghanistan and these people are going to die terrible deaths and their families if you don't give them asylum here. So when I saw this, I thought, I hope they don't use this as an excuse to stop. At the end of the day, we will be less safe overseas and our fine men and women in uniform will have a more difficult time accomplishing missions if they don't. If the people over there don't feel as if America's gonna look after them if they in fact aid us. So this is just, I mean, this is bad all the way around. I don't know how to, I don't know how to frame this other than this is a tragedy on a number of levels.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's just, it's nuts. Like, look, obviously we bring people back here, as you said, because they helped us. This was vetted by the Trump administration. And of course, Kirsty Noema is doing every pretzel possible, by the way, saying she wouldn't follow federal Jud. I was like, are you like getting ready to be arrested soon when this is done? Because she's just like, these people are self owning themselves legally. Like a lot. You know, I don't listen to judges. Oh, good. That when we arrest you, we will be playing this particular thing. The fact that she doesn't want to figure out what happened here and instead just lay blame. Obviously there was a mental. He was working for a, I think it's called the Zero Team, which was a particularly brutal group that he worked for. He might have had a mental breakdown. He obviously wasn't. When he was granted asylum by the Trump administration, he obviously was not vetted properly. Right. And, and that is what it is. And again, I wouldn't even blame them for that. Right. Like, nothing's perfect in any of these vettings, by the way. But the fact is they have to lay on blame to Biden, by the way, who looked rather rigorous over the holidays. I will say it just felt. It just felt. It's like these people cannot ever just have a tragedy happen and try to solve it. They have to do threats and they have to use everything for a political end. And in this case, it's really bad for our economy. That's all I kept thinking as they were yammering on. And it remains a tragedy for all these families that get upended in a really unnecessary way. Anyway, I would recommend you listening to people like Ian Bremmer and others so you can understand the economic implications of this. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back, Melania's new production company. Support for this show comes from Solidigm. The world runs on data and data relies on storage. But most businesses aren't thinking about data storage as a key part of their infrastructure or really at all. Solidigm is a storage optimized for the AI era, offering bigger, faster and more energy efficient solid state storage. Simply put, the old approach to storage is no longer sufficient. Especially with the new demands and new constraints that AI companies face with rapid expansion of AI Hyperdense Hyper Fast Solid state storage from solidigm acts as a catalyst for your data, helping solve energy and physical footprint constraints. From core data centers to the edge and everywhere in between mean it's time to build your data infrastructure on a solid foundation with Solidive. Learn more at whatstestateofyourstorage.com.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Different apps that don't talk to each other?

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back with a very important story. Melania Trump has launched a new production company called Muse Films. The first project is a documentary titled Melania. Set for global theatrical release in January, the film will spotlight the 20 days leading up to Trump's 2025 inauguration. The documentary's rights were reportedly bought by Amazon MGM Studios in a bribe. I mean, they thought it was a great thing for $40 million. I don't know the last time a documentary got that amount. The director of Melania, Brett Ratner, is staying busy thanks to the Trumps. Again, Ratner, who'd been accused very credibly in a really an astonishing piece in the New York Times actually of sexual harassment and misconduct is at work on Rush Hour 4 after President Trump really pushed Paramount to revive the franchise. I don't feel like we need Rush Hour for I did like Rush Hour, the original one. So what do you think of this? I feel it's like another Obama group that's not Going to. She's going to make one shitty thing and then that's it. These sort of vanity production companies, right?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Whether it's the Markels or the Obamas, this is nothing unusual. And that is people who studios convince studios like proximity to famous people, powerful people. Also, their fame can lead to. Usually when they write a book, it does really well. Sells a lot sometimes. Yeah. What the Obamas and the Markles quite frankly developed a reputation for was cashing checks and then not wanting to actually do any work.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

And these things kind of fizzled out and really didn't go anywhere. But what? And look, buyer beware. If they want to leverage their celebrity. Every author wants to be overpaid. Everyone who signs their film production wants to be overpaid. That's your agent's job, is to make the studio. Once they regret it, it. But when my book agent negotiates my book deals, if I don't get royalties, that means he's done his job. It means he got a big upfront advance. So them going out and getting deals is fine. What's different here is the following. And it is a distinct difference. The Obamas waited until they were out of office and weren't in a position to influence mergers and acquisitions with the DOJ or the ftc. The first lady should not be entering into commercial agreements in exchange for Wink, wink. I'll make sure this acquisition does or does not go through. Netflix probably will not get unless it's some sort of club deal. Warner Brothers. Because Reed Hastings is known as a Democrat. And so when you say to. This has nothing to do with the untapped, extraordinarily deep creative talents of Melania Trump. Okay, so what this is, is okay. Will this put us in a favorable light for $40 million on all regulatory concerns from the FCC around mergers we want or business we want from the most powerful man in the world. And it's bullshit. It all comes back to the same level. If you decide to be in public service, you and your family give up. You get a lot. You get a lot of great shit. You get to fly out on a really cool plane. You can get reservations anywhere for the rest of your life. You get a library named after you. People stand up when you walk into the room. The downside is you cannot have conflicts of any sort like this.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

And Melania Trump, I've always thought, quite frankly, First Lady Trump, I've always thought like, I've never understood. I think she's a. Let me. I think she's the worst First lady in history. I don't think she does anything redeeming. I'm still convinced. I wanna give her this. I think her English is better than my Czech. I've never heard her speak. She's guilty of the same chain migration that they're all claiming. Fine. She obviously wants nothing to do with him. She's never at the White House. Fine. But at the same time, there's no. I don't ever feel a need to. I think it's a little unfair when people go after family members, whether it's the first lady or what have you. If she wants to go into film production the day after she leaves office, more power to her. And if someone is stupid enough to believe she has any insight into the creative process, fine. And maybe she does have contacts. Maybe people would be so interested if she's willing to say, okay, this is the behind the scenes story of this guy.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it's not going to be interesting in any way.

[Scott Galloway]

I agree. But my point is this all comes back to the same thing. Whether it's what we're talking about with David Sacks, conflict of interest. You don't do these deals and accept tens of millions of dollars.

[Kara Swisher]

She does. She's been for sale from the get go since she took a plane over here. Come on.

[Scott Galloway]

Not.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's be clear what she is. It's just the price. It's just the price.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, I want to be clear. I think we're all for sale to a certain extent. I don't like this. I've done worse things for a lot less money than sleep with Donald Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think you would fuck Donald Trump.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think you would.

[Scott Galloway]

Enough beers. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think this one cares. I literally think even you would be like, there's no amount of money.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I don't begrudge people for wanting a better life. Who knows? Maybe he's powerful. Maybe she's attracted to him. I don't even want to go there.

[Kara Swisher]

I shall. That's pretty. Let me just like make one Melania observation is she's the only thing I ever liked about Melania were those fucking crazy blood trees. I thought, what a bitch. I love her for this. Remember when she did the Christmas trees that were all red and they were bloody? The bloody Christmas tree. When she took the white house and she decorated with these really blood red trees. It was so evil that I was like, good for you, girl. You decided to lean into crazy and you did it. And that's the only part of like if she did. If this film is like that, I'm gonna watch it. That's my only, you know.

[Scott Galloway]

So now I'm having trouble. Every time I see a really cute picture of penguins greeting a pigeon or a lion taking care of a small wolf or something, I immediately go, is this AI And I saw this thing that I was convinced it was AI and it was first lady Melania Trump talking about the threats of AI to a squadron of military self guided drones, drones, spacegoids, space driven AI satellites, they are all already here. This is not the future. They are here. And I'm like, and then I'm like, this is an AI who decided that.

[Kara Swisher]

The first lady, I know she did.

[Scott Galloway]

Go talk to the military about AI warfare.

[Kara Swisher]

She also did a White House thing about. It was so. Again, again, Kara Swisher's not invited, but Melania Trump can talk about aa. I'm just pointing out, Donald, invite me. I will give you some thoughts on aa. But let me just say Rush Hour four. I'm not. Whatever. The whole thing is such a fixed. You know who I like as Melania Trump? Laura Benanti. She's the one who does Melania on Colbert and she's a genius.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah. I'll give her this. I think she's very fashionable. I think she's very hot. And I think that's important in a first lady, you know, whatever.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't want a hot first lady. Well, Jackie Kennedy, was she hot? Yeah, I guess at the time for.

[Scott Galloway]

The, I mean, come on, it was.

[Kara Swisher]

Like Mamie Eisenhower before her. So it's not.

[Scott Galloway]

Lady Bush was very pretty.

[Kara Swisher]

I think she was actually hot too. She was a hot grim. Anyway. All right, let's not stack rank the first ladies. Anyway, one more quick break.

[Scott Galloway]

If I ran for president, do you think Emily Ratajkowski would be more.

[Kara Swisher]

She stopped thinking of you. I told you, she's in a room with AOC and your exact fourth grade.

[Scott Galloway]

I realize you're trying to protect her.

[Kara Swisher]

They're not talking about you. Somewhere they are together not talking about you ever. Ever. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. I got a good one this week. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. Upcoming comedy Ella McKay from Academy Award winning writer director James L. Brooks. Emma Mackey plays Ella McKay, an idealistic young woman who juggles family and work in a story about the people you love and how to survive them. Featuring an all star cast including Jamie Lee Curtis, Jack Loudon, Kumail Nanjani, Iowa Debris Julie Kavner. With Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson. Ella McKay. In theaters December 12th. Get tickets now at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone.

[Scott Galloway]

You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist.

[Kara Swisher]

Who gets to know you and the.

[Scott Galloway]

Goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I'm gonna go first. I'm gonna tell you first. I wanna pay very quick. This is a. Well, it's a fail, I guess. I wanna pay tribute to one of my favorite playwrights, Tom Stoppard, the legendary writer who died at 88 over the weekend. I love Tom Stoppard more than any other playwright. Changed my life, particularly everything I saw of his. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead, all these things. But there was a play ar that I saw as a young person, and it literally changed my life. I don't know how, you know, storytelling does change people's life. I'm going to read a quote from he was very scientific and complex. He always had science running throughout many of his plays and ideas. Metaphysical, religious, all kinds of things. But there was a quote we shed as we pick up like travelers who must carry everything in their arms, and what we let fall will be picked up by those behind. The procession is very long and life is very short. We die on the march. There is nothing outside the march, so nothing can be lost to it. The missing plays of Sophocles will turn up piece by piece or be written again in another language. Ancient cures for diseases will reveal themselves once more. Mathematical discoveries, glimpsed and lost to view, will have their time again. Do not suppose, my lady, that if all of Archimedes had been hiding in the Great Library of Alexandria, we'd be at loss for a Corkscrew. I love him. Such a good writer. Such a great writer. Anyway, speaking of that, I finally watched Pluribus. Scott, thank you for the recommendation. I fucking love that show.

[Scott Galloway]

Really.

[Kara Swisher]

I love it. I love it. I haven't gotten to episode five of this. Amanda and I watched three episodes last night. To me, it's all about AI. That's what I think it's about. It's about AI come to life and giving you everything you want and being very pleasing. And she's like, that guy has just made me think in. In all kinds of new ways.

[Scott Galloway]

He's a genius. Vince Gilligan is a genius.

[Kara Swisher]

Funny, funny, funny, funny, like every bit of it. And I just. It's not dark, but it is. And I just. It's made me. I can't stop thinking of it. That's what I would say. The winner. Run, don't Walk. To watch Blurbus. It is so good. It is that good. And I appreciate you showing that, giving me that.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, good. I'm glad.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. That's my. I guess that's my win. Fail, I guess. I mean, my fail is the continued ridiculous sensitivity of the grifters of tech who pretend that they're doing this for all of us when they're doing it for them. That would be my fail. But they're always my fail. They're such greedy little pigs. Anyway, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

So my win is. I haven't been a fan of this series, but I went and saw the third one, and I thought it was just so fantastic. I saw Knives Out.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I love that. I love it.

[Scott Galloway]

And I saw the third, and I just thought it was so wonderful. Benoit, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Is his name Benoit?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. So Daniel Craig. I thought he was the most physical. James Bond. He's also, I think, the best actor. I think he. And he's also. He is great in this. And the kid who plays the priest. I gotta get the cast. The kid who plays the priest is gonna be a movie star.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Joe.

[Kara Swisher]

What's his name?

[Scott Galloway]

He plays the younger. Yeah, the younger priest. And also, you know who I've never been. I'm not. I would say I'm not a. A huge fan, but I just think. I hope she's the most talented actress that has yet to win an Academy Award. Glenn Close was so good.

[Kara Swisher]

She's always great. I also love Tom Spofford. She gave a great tribute to him.

[Scott Galloway]

She's also. She's 78. She's been nominated, get this. Eight times.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, she's so good.

[Scott Galloway]

And Thomas Hayden, Churchill's in as well.

[Kara Swisher]

She's in that Kim Kardashian thing that everybody hates but has gotten renewed again. Again, Paul's Fair.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyways, I just thought it was a, I thought it was a really wonderful movie.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I'm going to see it. It's on my list.

[Scott Galloway]

So my fail is going to be more controversial. But I spent a lot of week, I've spent a lot of the weekend reading because I'm a narcissist reading my reviews for my book and most have been positive. The harshest pushback I've received have been almost universally from therapists who say that. But one, here's another man blaming women for men's problems. I'm like, okay, clearly this person hasn't read the book. But the basis is that men, before they can move to having a relationship or focusing on economic security, need to work on themselves. And I feel as if online and generally as a gestalt in America that therapy fixes everything thing. And I feel like it's sort of becoming the new take this supplement to solve all your problems. And just as I think sometimes supplements are a pipeline to being red pilled, I think this therapy fixes everything is a bit of a supplement to focusing on certain virtue signaling as opposed to focusing on the material or economic well being of Americans. And that is, I think over prescription of therapy can pathologize normal life. When every frustration, conflict or sadness is framed as something that needs therapy, I think people can lose sight of the fact that some problems are situational, not psychological, some difficulties require structural solutions, not introspection. And market forces reward influencers right now who promote therapy for fucking everything. And also so saying that you just need more therapy to fix this problem is a little bit like me saying you're frustrated by airport delays. Well, you should fly private. The majority of people do not have access to $200 an hour therapists.

[Kara Swisher]

They do not.

[Scott Galloway]

And what I would argue is that it's an answer, but it's not the answer.

[Kara Swisher]

I like your defense, although my mother in law is going to come after you now.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, therapists are hammers and everything they see is nails. And also there's a feminist.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know if that's the case. I don't know if if that's the case. But I can see your point.

[Scott Galloway]

I'll let you respond and let me get through this also just so I can trigger a lot of people. The feminization of therapy means a lot of young men don't relate to these therapists. Oh, and that's not to say they can't help them. But if you're a young man who can't get a job and is having trouble finding or leveling up your own offering such that you can at some point find mentors, friends and mates. I'm not sure sometimes that these young men are. I'm not to say they can't benefit, but my point is it can help. But it's not the only or always the best tool. Supportive friendships or community lifestyle changes, addressing financial or structural barriers, developing skills, medical evaluation for underlying conditions, cultural or spiritual frameworks, self education. And when therapy becomes ideology, my sense is all the nuances disappearing. This sense that if you don't go to therapy, you're refusing to grow. If you disagree with therapy, you're avoiding healing. If therapy didn't work, it must be your fault. I feel like it's not mental health, it's becoming dogma. And I'm not anti therapy, I'm anti oversimplification. And that it is a powerful tool for many people. But to be clear folks, logistically and financially, it is not a universal fix here. And the argument isn't therapy is bad, it's that therapy is being marketed like supplements promised as the answer to everything, pushed by people who profit from the narrative and stripped it of the nuance required to be truly, truly useful. And also I would argue that if you have real mental health issues or you have the money and the luxury of getting therapy, have at it. Hugely beneficial. My therapy bomb. A nuclear fucking detonation fluoride in the water. That would be as good as therapy for the vast majority of young men who supposedly all need to work on themselves before they can make money or have a relationship. Would be higher wages and lower chronic stress. $25 an hour minimum wage paid family leave.

[Kara Swisher]

I knew you were gonna.

[Scott Galloway]

Universal childcare. 8 million homes in 10 years. Universal health care, reduced fear and earlier intervention, less student debt, less medical debt, childcare support, lower parental burnout, student debt relief, longer term stress and higher well being a stronger safety net, fewer crises will escalate. Guess what? We can have more and more high blood pressure and diabetes medication. Or maybe we get people, people working out and get them access to healthier food, workplace standards, safer healthier environments. Bottom line, you can't therapy your way out of material precarity. And what I see online is everyone stating that mental health is the only answer. No, it's an answer.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know if everyone does that though. Let me.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God. Go online, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

I Will, it's worse than something. Let me ask you a question, two questions, and then I will make an observation. Let me make observation. I've never been in therapy myself. I know it shows and I have not thought I needed it. I went once for a couple's therapy and I just wanted to.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God, I'm the exact same thing.

[Kara Swisher]

I was like, let me off.

[Scott Galloway]

Just to clarify, we should get divorced. That's the only therapy I've ever been in.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, well they asked, you should get divorced. The therapist, I swear to God, I was like, this is the last stop on the relationship train. That's my feelings.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God, I love you. You're literally, you're channeling my every thought.

[Kara Swisher]

And so the therapist goes, kara, how are you feeling? And I said, I feel like watching television. And they're, I'm excited to go see strangers.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm super excited to go sleep with strangers.

[Kara Swisher]

And my ex is like, that's not a feeling. I go, no, it is, it is. I feel good when I watch television. I'm very happy. I feel like doing that. And the therapist was like, you're fine, you can go. It was like, I don't, I agree with you. I don't. My both, by the way, both my in laws are, but one is a psychia, other is a psychologist. Yeah, psychologist. And they're wonderful. And I think they do believe in therapy and its uses and everything else. I think that you're right that it has to be a well rounded thing and not everyone avails themselves to therapy in the ways that are possible and that you don't necessarily. Like I do think, you know, like one of my kids mental health is better because he works out all the time. I think it helps him mentally. I can see it. You know what I mean? He feels better about himself especially. He eats better, he's been eating better and he wants depressed, but he's a better person for it. Like I don't know what else to say. It wasn't like he was like dealing with all kinds of trauma, but I, I do see improvements or my other son, I know it sounds crazy, loves to drive a car and he loves driving and it's mentally healthy for him to. He like goes on road trips and it's like he takes a minute. Like there's other ways to therapy. I go to the hardware store. I love a hardware store. Like I feel better. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but I do. Or clean or something like that. But I see your point. I do, I, I do See, one of the things I push back on your behalf and then, and then just tell me this is everyone's like, oh, he does. He's not a therapist. I said, he's not saying that in this thing. He's not, he's not like you haven't read it because he's not putting himself. Like, there are a lot of man writers that see themselves as therapists. You know that, right? There's that kind of like, here's the answer. I don't think you're doing that. So I don't think it's fair. That would be my observation.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I think economic policy, I think we need, I think the greatest mental health, the greatest source that gets to the same or a similar place of therapy would be mental health policy. When people have stable housing, healthcare, reasonable work hours, predictable pay, childcare and a social safety net, their mental health improves to the point where they meet not need to speak to $200 an hour.

[Kara Swisher]

Therapist or if they can, if they're available. That's why there's so many online therapists. I had an interesting discussion. I had dinner with the governor of Massachusetts. We were talking a little bit about like homelessness and mental health issues. They're so linked. They're so, they're so linked.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, if you are in a position to afford mental health and it's accessible, if you are clearly struggling with mental health issues, absolutely, it is hugely important housing, I'm in favor of it, but I believe this. If we could give young people structural foundation for more economic opportunity and the chance to meet people and have more stronger relationships, I think the need for therapy would be substantially reduced. I want people in the gym. Gym before they need statins or diabetes medication.

[Kara Swisher]

Statins isn't. I guess. Yeah. Some things are just genetic though, right? I mean.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, no. And if you inherit, if you're bipolar and you have mental health issues in your family, by all means help those people find therapists and psychiatrists. But what I'm seeing online is, and most of these people, by the way, are no longer practicing, they're just on TikTok. And I find that I know which.

[Kara Swisher]

One you're talking about, the one that, the one the guy talking about. I think Chelsea Handler sent it to you, or someone did.

[Scott Galloway]

But if you look at these folks background, it's like, all right, the algorithms support dogma over mental health policy and they want to shame people that aren't. Well, these men shouldn't even be thinking you're sending them down the wrong path. They need to Work on themselves first. I'm like, you know what? I bet if this kid got a good job job and had a better friend network, that would solve a lot of this.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I think that that piece that as well meaning as it was, it was. It wasn't what was happening anyway. I like that. I like that we're going to get a lot of pushback, but that's okay.

[Scott Galloway]

That's fine.

[Kara Swisher]

That's fine.

[Scott Galloway]

You know what I've learned?

[Kara Swisher]

Both of us have this therapeutic situation.

[Scott Galloway]

It's like World War II when bombers targeting sites used to malfunction. The pilots used to say, drop your bombs when we're getting the most flak because that means we're over the target.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, all right.

[Scott Galloway]

There's the old man coming out.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. We have a special listener mail show coming up, so please get those questions in. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, on the latest episode of on with Kara Swisher, I'm talking to comedian Tig Notaro. Let's listen to a clip. Do you feel a shift in comedy? There is the whole bro comedy circuit, of course.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I feel a massive shift.

[Kara Swisher]

Whether it is the bro comedy, very conservative comedy. You know, when I First started almost 30 years ago, it was very unusual to find a conservative out conservative comedian. Right. People would all kind of reference Dennis Miller. But yeah, I feel the shift. Anyway, very interesting interview. She's just done a really fascinating documentary.

[Scott Galloway]

She's having a moment, though. She's doing really well, right?

[Kara Swisher]

She is. She's amazing. She was on the morning show. She's on this great, handsome podcast that she does. And she did this documentary that is oddly, it's about the death, the cancer death of a spoken word lesbian. Not lesbian, non binary poet. And it's riveting. Like, I was like, huh, I don't know. But it was beautiful. She's done this. She executive producer is really quite good. Anyway, she's also a lovely person, let me just say. And I love interviewing, as you know, comics and comedians because I really enjoy it. I'm gonna do Michelle Wolf soon just for you.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my God.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. I know.

[Scott Galloway]

My hero.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. She just did a hysterical thing about the relationship between the two wicked stars. That make you laugh.

[Scott Galloway]

She was like, oh, I thought of you when I saw those two.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God, it's going a little.

[Kara Swisher]

Bit over the top, but Michelle, I'm gonna send you the Michelle Wolf take.

[Scott Galloway]

On it a little bit.

[Kara Swisher]

I usually don't like to comment on people's but what the hell? Like, she did a great. I'll send it to you. Anyway, I love Michelle Wolf. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott Read us out Today's show was.

[Scott Galloway]

Produced by Lara Neiman Soy Marcus Taylor Griffin and Brandon McFarlane. Ernie to Todd engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Bros, Ms. Savara Danschelon and Kate Gallagher. Yasha Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer. Podcast make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

[Kara Swisher]

The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products. Drafting reports analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot.