How did Heated Rivalry’s Producers Make Their Massive Hit?

Summary

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Pivot Podcast Bonus: How Did Heated Rivalry’s Producers Make Their Massive Hit?

Date: February 7, 2026
Host: Kara Swisher
Guests: Jacob Tierney (Creator), Brendan Brady (Executive Producer)
Episode Theme: The unlikely, culture-shifting, business-savvy success of "Heated Rivalry," an openly queer romance drama out of Canada, and a look at how its creators bucked industry norms.

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Episode Overview

Kara Swisher hosts this special episode to explore the phenomenal success of the Canadian TV series "Heated Rivalry." Joined by creator Jacob Tierney and executive producer Brendan Brady, the discussion centers on the cultural, creative, and business elements that made the show a breakout hit—particularly in a media environment resistant to queer, sex-forward storytelling. The episode dives deeply into production challenges, funding differences between Canada and the US, intellectual property (IP) ownership, and broader commentary on the entertainment industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cultural Impact and Queer Joy of "Heated Rivalry"

• Canada’s Embrace & American Hesitance

  • The show became a national source of pride, praised by figures like Prime Minister Mark Carney for embodying Canadian values of inclusion and self-expression. Carney lauds:

    “A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.” [02:33]

• Queer Joy on Screen

  • Jacob Tierney describes the series as a rare depiction of "queer joy" that’s unpreachy and fantasy-fulfilling, steering away from trauma-focused LGBTQ+ narratives:

    “What the show did, in a kind of an unpreachy, un-trying-to-teach-you-a-lesson way, is just present queer joy.” [03:38]
    “We just don’t… have a story that chooses to not focus on trauma, to focus on other parts of the queer experience as fantasy.” [04:35]

• Sex, Romance, and Challenging Old Tropes

  • There’s significance in showing happy, sexually active queer characters—especially men:

    “If you want to have a sex life, get ready to die and if you want to be happy, get ready to not have sex.” [05:27]

2. The Overlooked Power of the Romance Genre

• Romance’s Popularity and Misogyny

  • Both producers highlight romance as a misunderstood but massive genre, dismissed due to its association with women:

    “It’s dismissed because of the misogyny that we all endlessly live with because it’s something that appeals to women, is often written by women and consumed by women.” [06:40]
    “If this show was about a boy with a gun, somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago.” [06:53]

• Female Desire as a Secret Sauce

  • The fanbase—primarily women—had long been overlooked by the industry, which underestimated their appetite for this kind of story.

3. Canadian Production Model: Funding, Ownership, & Risk

• How the Funding Works

  • Canadian TV relies heavily on government grants and tax credits, as opposed to US-style full network funding.

    “The Canadian film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems—that are propped up by the Canadian government... the producers own all the underlying IP.” [09:11]
    “Basically, the broadcaster puts in 20-30%, tax credits bring another 20-30%, and we had to source the last piece ourselves.” [09:11]

• Producer-Owned IP

  • Unlike the norm in the US, Tierney and Brady own their series’ IP, allowing long-term creative and financial control:

    “We are the studio in the system.” [10:06]
    “We made the decision to reinvest our fees… because we knew that if this goes really well, we’re going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this.” [19:10]

• The Budget and Production Approach

  • Lean, efficient, and collaborative:

    “We shot all six episodes in 36 days… Jacob directed all six… We block shot them like one giant movie.” [13:17]

  • Under $3 million CAD per episode—low for a one-hour drama—but praised for its high production quality.

4. Anti-“Fascist” Directing: Collaboration Over Control

• Tierney’s Philosophy
  • Rejects the "auteur" director myth in favor of a collaborative, ensemble-driven approach:

    “I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their performance.” [16:18]

  • Advocates for shorter workdays and care for the crew, especially women:

    “We feel we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16 hour days, which is where the cost balloon[ed].” [14:19]

5. Overcoming Industry Skepticism and Exec Rejection

• Vindication After Rejection

  • Eileen Chaikin (The L Word) asks if they feel smug about their success after so many US and Canadian rejections:

    “I can’t pretend there isn’t a part of me that’s slightly smug.” [26:10]
    “I felt very strongly… I’m not doing what these folks want me to do. And… it wasn’t just Americans. It was other Canadians too. It was a lot of people.” [26:51]

  • Executives wanted unnecessary changes—like adding a female protagonist—misunderstanding both the material and audience:

    “You have a gay hockey show with sex. And they were like, that's not what we meant. Too much sex, too much hockey, too little hockey, too little sex. Whatever it was, it was all like, why is it like this?” [27:27]

• Understanding the Audience

  • Industry insiders missed who the audience already was (women readers and viewers):

    “Women read these books, women write these books. Gay men don’t even know these books exist. Like, these are for women.” [27:57]

6. Industry Change: Mergers, Streaming, and AI

• Shifting Creative Demands & Streaming

  • Referencing Matt Damon, they discuss how streaming encourages more formulaic, attention-grabbing structures, but “Heated Rivalry” leaned in the opposite direction:

    “People are saying, this is a show you have to pay attention to. If you’re on your phone, you’re not going to get it... so much of it is about what is not being said, about catching looks between people.” [32:05]

• Impact of Industry Consolidation

  • Concern over shrinking competition and fewer buyers, affecting the creative environment:

    “I don’t love that there’s less places to go… it’s way better when we have more [competition].” [34:07]

• AI and the Future of TV Production

  • Cautiously optimistic about AI as a tool (for logistics), but see little creative value:

    “I think that there are a lot of opportunities [for AI], but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind.” [37:13]
    “Friction’s critical for you being here.” [38:32]

7. Looking Forward: What’s Next?

• Future Projects and Dream Scenarios
  • While tight-lipped about specifics, Tierney hints at a "dream come true" future project in the works, alongside Brady’s producer ambitions for a new show, “The King is Dead,” by Indigenous writer Tim Fontaine:

    "It's a comedy about a group of Indigenous folks tired of all these white people coming to North America. They take a boat, traverse back to England in an attempt to kill King George III." [41:05]

    • Described as "Monty Python energy."
  • On maintaining perspective:

    “We want to use [our platform] to promote positive issues… hearing from people how their lives are being changed.” [29:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Enjoy the yearn.” —Brendan Brady, on fans waiting for new episodes. [01:22]

“If this show was about a boy with a gun, somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago.” —Jacob Tierney [06:53]

“I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their performance.” —Jacob Tierney [16:18]

“Friction’s critical for you being here.” —Kara Swisher [38:32]

“I can’t pretend there isn’t a part of me that’s slightly smug.” —Jacob Tierney, about industry rejection and later vindication [26:10]

“Women read these books, women write these books. Gay men don’t even know these books exist. Like, these are for women.” —Jacob Tierney [27:57]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:22] "Enjoy the yearn": Playful evasion on future content and fan appetite.
• [03:38] The show's unique joy, cultural impact, and reception.
• [05:26] Discussing sex, romance tropes, and queer representation.
• [09:11] Deep dive into Canadian funding, production model, and IP ownership.
• [13:17] Efficient production, low budget, and collaborative working style.
• [16:18] Jacob Tierney rejects perfectionism and the "auteur" myth.
• [19:10] The benefits of owning the show’s intellectual property.
• [26:10] Eileen Chaikin asks about vindication; Tierney and Brady reflect on industry rejection.
• [32:05] Streaming’s influence, the audience’s attention, and resisting dumbing-down content.
• [34:07] Industry consolidation and what it means for creators.
• [37:13] The role (and limits) of AI in creative production.
• [39:33] Hints at future projects, including "The King is Dead" [41:05].

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, humorous, and lightly irreverent—especially between Swisher and her guests. There’s a running theme of pride in going against industry orthodoxy, with bits of Canadian humility and pride stitched throughout. The insights are forthright, and the guests are both celebratory and acutely aware of the fragility and specificity of their success.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode offers an in-depth, forthright look at how “Heated Rivalry” challenged the TV status quo, not just with its subject matter, but in the way it was produced, financed, and distributed. The show’s creative philosophy, business model, and audience connection exist in intentional contrast to both American TV conventions and industry streaming trends. The result is a masterclass in modern, inclusive, and sustainable series-making, with lessons for anyone interested in breaking out of industry silos—or just wanting to root for the underdog.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Preet Bharara]

Why have the ICE operations in Minneapolis struck a nerve unlike anything else in the Trump era?

[Jacob Tierney]

It's really important to understand that this.

[Brendan Brady]

Is a radical administration. It is not a conservative administration.

[Preet Bharara]

I'm Preet Bharara and this week Pulitzer Prize winning historian and Atlantic staff writer Ann Applebaum joins me to unpack what's happening in Minneapolis and why she argues this moment reflects a radical governing project, not traditional conservatism. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher. Today we've got a special bonus episode and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing. It's about the most addictive, delightful surprise cultural phenomena of the decade. Heated rivalry. I'm joined today by the show's creator, Jacob Tierney and executive producer Brendan Burrow Brady. Welcome you two. You guys are a toot already.

[Brendan Brady]

Thanks, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

We've been beset by some tech issues, but nonetheless, the gays will prevail. The success of the show is about so many things. Queer joy, sex, inclusion. It's amazing business story and that's really what I wanted to talk about. But first for the fans, are we getting a standalone episode before season two?

[Brendan Brady]

I love saying now. This is Brendan. So I would say that like much like the best parts of this show, just enjoy the yearn.

[Kara Swisher]

Enjoy the yearn. Is that on your T shirts?

[Brendan Brady]

Oh, no. Soon. Trademark. Trademark. We trademarked it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Okay. Because that means no. That's a no.

[Jacob Tierney]

We'll see here. This is Jacob speaking now.

[Brendan Brady]

That's a.

[Jacob Tierney]

Here's the. Here's the truth and that nobody actually wants to hear is that we just don't know yet. We are, you know, we, we actually only fin. Finished this show basically a week before episode six aired. And so this has been a, a massive surprise and endeavor and endeavor and we didn't really have a moment to catch our breaths before answering questions like this. So the truth is we're getting a plan in place. We will have more information for folks soon. We understand that there's an appetite for a lot of this and we're just trying to figure out what we can physically accomplish in. In the next year.

[Kara Swisher]

In the next year. So one thing, this show has been a giant PR boost in the entire your entire country. Here's Prime Minister Mark Carney at a recent media event. You had to. Speaking of, feel the urine, but go ahead.

[Mark Carney]

The world knows that Shane and Ilya are rising hockey stars who fall for each other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known. But they're also two young men who are terrified of being their fullest self. And we live in an increasingly dangerous, divided and intolerant world. A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.

[Kara Swisher]

So the narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada, obviously made in Canada, because American distributors were afraid of the sex content. Why don't you start, Jacob? The reaction, first of all, and the kind of what you think is happening here from, I mean, I'm sure you've answered this question, but he sort of articulates it rather well, is that people are upset and divided and this brings a respite. But I think it's more than that, in my opinion. But why don't you start, Jacob, and then you. Brendan.

[Jacob Tierney]

I mean, I think that there's, I think that what the show did, in a kind of an unpreachy un, trying to teach you a lesson way, is just present queer joy. And I think that that's. Its soft power. You know, that's the thing that I think people are surprised by and, and that that has hit people, at least from what, what I'm getting. And I think that while there are queer stories out there, I don't think there's a lot of joy. And I don't think that the, the, the, the kind of profound joy that you only find in romance, really, that kind of thing, fantasy fulfilling, desire fulfilling things that, that you get to see don't happen to queer people in media. And I think that that is the kind of whoosh of it all, especially men. Especially.

[Kara Swisher]

There's a lot of lesbian content out there, I can tell you the L.

[Jacob Tierney]

Word, I think, especially men.

[Preet Bharara]

And I.

[Jacob Tierney]

And I think that, yeah, we just don't to have a story that chooses to not. And you know, there are, obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma and, and I get that. And we, I think we all know that. But this, this show's desire to not focus on that, to focus on other parts of the queer experience as fantasy. And I fully admit it's a romance, it's from a romance novel, that, that, I think that that's partly the reaction to it. There's a lot I don't pretend I can explain, but I do think it is that that is kind of, that's the big difference.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's different experience for gay People versus straight people, I think and because I was always waiting for the hit.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah, I think we all are. And I think especially because they have sex so early and we are trained have sex, we will be punished. So if we cannot have sex, we might be able to be happy, but.

[Brendan Brady]

We can't do both.

[Jacob Tierney]

You don't get to have a sex life and be happy. If you want to have a sex life, get ready to die and if you want to be happy, get ready to not have sex.

[Brendan Brady]

I, I think like the other part of this which Jacob has talked about a lot and it was kind of how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which is this is a story written by women and it's consumed primarily by women. And we don't take female desire and stories serious in media. A lot of the times. I think a show like this that came out of nowhere is kind of. We were, when we were pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers, hoping that we were right. We were like, there is a built in audience. These books are consumed. So there's so many readers of all types of romance novels. They're there and they are yearning for, for these stories to be told. So I think that was the other like secret sauce in this is just like this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously and they got to see it taken seriously and they loved it.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll talk about that. Because romance, I always say, everyone's like why it's so popular. I'm like, it's a romance novel. It's from. Romance novels are pop. It's one of those genres that people don't realize how big it is, how big.

[Jacob Tierney]

And as a genre it's been around since the dawn of time. Like it's as old as a detective story. You know, it's as old as all of like romances. There would have been a time when, when Jane Austen would have been considered romance. I mean that's. These are. And it's dismiss. I think to Brendan's point, it's dismissed despite the fact that it, it the romance genre carries the publishing industry in terms of fiction. And I think it's dismissed because of the misogyny that we all endlessly live with because it's something that appeals to women, is often written by women and consumed by women. And so why would any. I've said this before, I was like, if this show was about a boy with a gun, somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, well, a hockey player with A gun. Any boy with a gun. Anyway, talk about this. But getting made like we talk on this success, on what it symbolizes, the difference between Canada and the U.S. though, even how these productions are funded. Let me talk about this idea of. Was made in Canada's American distributors. And let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carney's speech about that and how it was funded on behalf.

[Mark Carney]

Of Canada's new government. Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding that helped you share this.

[Preet Bharara]

Story with the world.

[Mark Carney]

I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now. So, yeah, I made. I greenlit this thing. I stood up to the Americans.

[Brendan Brady]

That's amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

That was an amazing speech.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, I think that, like, you know, this speech that he gave was at an event called Prime Time, which is hosted by the Producers, Canadian Producer of Media association, like the Canadian version of the pga. And the point of this was to raise awareness of what's going on in our industry because the entertainment landscape is under attack right now. We've been trying to update our systems, and because of Kuzma, because of the U.S. you know, wanting to come in and tell us how to run our country and how our cultural sector needs to be dictated, there's a lot of concern about whether or not we're going to have a system in place that has cultural sovereignty for Canada. And so for us, what was so amazing about this experience and getting to see Mark Carney there is our show was made in the Canadian system, and it is very different from the U.S. we.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, explain it. Explain it for people who don't understand.

[Brendan Brady]

So basically, the Canadian film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government. So we, you know, when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that commissioned the show, they go and say, okay, great, here is a license fee. Typically, It'll run between 20 to 30% of the budget. Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30% of the budget. And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for. Right. So the benefit to us in Canada's producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our broadcasters, but we, as the producers, own all the underlying ip. So that is the biggest.

[Kara Swisher]

So you don't sell it to a studio.

[Brendan Brady]

Exactly.

[Jacob Tierney]

We are the studio in the system.

[Brendan Brady]

But the. The you know, the limitations on that are you have to go, then raise money. So how we did this with our show is we ended up talking to a couple of studios, some of them American, some of them Canadian. And ultimately it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective. And, you know, we've. We understand where everybody was coming from. It is a. This was, you know, on paper, didn't seem like an amazing massive hit right out the gate. And so luckily, when we were going through this process, Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media. Bell Media is like if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country. They own everything from telecommunications to Internet to sports.

[Kara Swisher]

And they have divisions like Crave, which is extremely. Is that their only streaming platform? They have others.

[Brendan Brady]

Yes, yes, it's their only streaming platform.

[Kara Swisher]

So it's like. Have Disney, Hulu or whatever.

[Brendan Brady]

Exactly.

[Jacob Tierney]

But they're also. It's like. And, and they have ctv, which is their abc. So they have a terrestrial. They have a terrestrial channel and they have streaming.

[Brendan Brady]

They have cable channels. They have a streaming platform. And they had just acquired a distribution company called Sphere Abacus out of the UK. And so we were looking for that last 30% of the budget and they came in for 20 more percent on a distribution advance. So the last 10% was. Jacob and I put in our producer fees and we put in almost all of our producer fees, less what we had to keep back because you still have to pay for taxes. So it was a big gamble for us, but ultimately I can.

[Kara Swisher]

So what you would have earned for this, the fees that are standard, right?

[Brendan Brady]

That's exactly right.

[Kara Swisher]

When you, when you. What was the total budget here?

[Brendan Brady]

So we were just under 3 million Canadian an episode.

[Kara Swisher]

Amazing. That's pretty low. Which is what.

[Jacob Tierney]

I don't know if you know what a big deal this is, but Brendan is telling the truth. Yeah, we've been.

[Brendan Brady]

Carol Swisher gets the truth. She gets the truth. She gets exclusive.

[Kara Swisher]

So we were.

[Brendan Brady]

We were just under three per episode per episode Canadian.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Because it looks great, by the way. It didn't look on the cheap or.

[Brendan Brady]

Anything else because that speaks to Jacob and his amazing abilities. He's directed over a hundred episodes of television, so he knows what he's doing. And also speaks to a way in which we like to work, which we feel really amazing. Is. Is different than the US System or typical.

[Kara Swisher]

That's an enormously low amount for people who don't know. It's. It's very low for television shows. I mean, the salary low for A sitcom.

[Jacob Tierney]

It's deeply low for a one hour drama.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, deeply low for most. Those are the salaries of certain people, depending. So, you know, obviously these were not well known people. But still, it's still an expensive thing. I think most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make, right?

[Brendan Brady]

It depends. It's like between 6 to 4 to $10 an episode. Us is typical, depending on what your level is. But yeah, I mean, costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.

[Kara Swisher]

Is it less expensive to make this in Canada? From a production perspective?

[Jacob Tierney]

No.

[Brendan Brady]

We have an efficient model and I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around. So we by necessity have to spend less. But we also like did something here where we shot all six episodes in 36 days. Jacob shot J, Jacob directed all six of them. We block shot them like one giant movie. We talk about this when studios, especially US studios, come and say, how do you guys do this? And we go, it's crazy. You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep. And that's typically when we lose people. And they don't understand.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Because they write it through.

[Brendan Brady]

They write.

[Kara Swisher]

Although that's changing in the US Actually.

[Jacob Tierney]

It is crazy to do it the other way. Especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore. Like back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all.

[Kara Swisher]

Ready, well, you have writers on staff.

[Jacob Tierney]

Well, you have to just be writing all the time. But if you're doing, if the new model is eight to 10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.

[Kara Swisher]

So you start shooting. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, we start shooting and then we do 10 hour shoot days primarily. Like, I'm not going to say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low. And there's a couple of reasons for this. A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with crews, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime. But we also just feel that like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer. She was the assistant costume designer on this show. She's five months pregnant. The departments that. Thank you. The departments that get hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe, with these pre calls a lot of the time. Who are those departments run by? Primarily women. And so we also just feel that like they're in our business. We need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16 hour days, which is where the cost balloon.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. What are you, a lesbian? What's happening here? Anyway, so, Jacob, talk about your production style. Besides being, you know, truncated, like making it tight, keep it, keep it tight kind of thing you call it anti fascist. Explain what you mean by that.

[Jacob Tierney]

Well, I mean, I guess what I. What I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable but also insane and crue to be even attempting. There's no reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor. I'm an actor, I've been doing this since I was 4 years old. The problem is the scene, it's not the actor. You haven't written it properly if you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish. There's a fundamental issue. And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining. And so that's kind of.

[Kara Swisher]

I just did, I just did a. It was all day, I was like, why didn't. I kept saying why?

[Jacob Tierney]

Why is it all day to do nine different sizes on a close up is insane. All of this stuff is crazy. It's like it doesn't add to anything except exhaustion and to overworking people.

[Brendan Brady]

I would.

[Jacob Tierney]

And what I like to say is I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their performance. And I've used the scene as an example, like on the day when we were shooting. There's a scene in the sixth episode in the cottage after the boys have been caught by Shane's dad, where Hudson and Connor have a scene together and they essentially he decides that he's going to go talk to his parents. Ilya's going to come with him. And when we were shooting it, I thought. I wasn't convinced that I was going to use what Hudson was doing in that scene. I thought it might be too much. He was reacting, he had a big reaction, which is interesting for Hudson because he's a very internal actor, especially when he's playing Shane. And I didn't say anything and I just kind of watched it and I was like, this is interesting. I think I can cut around this. I think I can figure out how to get what I want out of this scene. And then when I got to the editing room and my editor put the scene together, she loved what he had done. And I looked at it again with new eyes And I was like, oh, I actually love this too. And I'm so glad I didn't insist on some idea that I had in my head, because what he brought to the table was more interesting and it was surprising and it was full of life. And it wasn't part of some insane jigsaw plan that I had in my head that needs to fit together or everything falls apart.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it's a different way of creating, right? It is a different way of creating.

[Jacob Tierney]

But also I do believe fundamentally that film and TV is an ensemble process. It is. Otherwise, go write a book, you know, go paint a picture. There's lots of ways to be in total control. But as soon as you invite other talents in, as soon as you invite. You're in a medium in which that is a part of how it's going to have to happen. To ask these brilliant people to work with you and then not listen to them or not use their skills.

[Kara Swisher]

Although that's sort of the director genre, right? Like the director gets to run everything.

[Jacob Tierney]

And I think it's a crazy system, you know, Like, I want to work with talented people and I want to. What are they doing here if I'm not going to listen to them, if I'm not going to incorporate their ideas, if I'm not going to incorporate what makes. Makes them so talented, why I wanted to work with them in the first place? And so, you know, anti fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of. It's a rejection of an idea that everything has to come from one person. And like, what, you know, the brilliant.

[Brendan Brady]

Idea is very top.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I've had very. I've had very little experience, but I've been on several sets.

[Jacob Tierney]

I mean, the idea of taking your cell phone from you when you get to work because they want you focused on their art is so, pardon my French, so male and boring stupid to me. Why does the girl can't. He can't text his wife about dinner. Because your genius extends that. It's just exhausting. It's.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. It's also long. It's long. I. I kept saying to people, I got things to do.

[Jacob Tierney]

This is a job.

[Kara Swisher]

So when you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all? Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know. And I think it's important explain why it is for you, especially in this space, because that's something that's been in anathema to the industry.

[Brendan Brady]

Well, I'll tell you what it means is like Jacob and I You know, worked on a show called Letterkenny and Schwerzy, and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well, and they had a robust merchandise business. And when we were in post production, we decided, because we have, we, you know, retained all the intellectual property behind the series, that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing, which is now incredibly like, it's, it's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about. But it also means that ultimately, like, when we, we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this. And that is the difference. And I think, like, what, you know, people always ask about, I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system, the Canadian system, you as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really, truly Canadian show, part of the offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP the producers get to. And some people will look at that. You know, the. But the flip side in the US is you're making way more money up front. I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong. I just think that our system is something to protect. Because what's happening in the US you can kind of look to and say, I mean, is this fully working right now? Like, can we really argue that this system is better than ours? No, but I can say that for a hundred years, this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives. And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

[Kara Swisher]

I think so completely. At some point, I wasn't going to make some for someone and I said, you just have to get. Give me ip. And they said, why do you have to have it? I said, it's none of your business. Yeah, because I want it. Yeah, because it's mine, it's not yours.

[Eileen Chaikin]

Right.

[Jacob Tierney]

It was like, own your own publishing. Right. Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it?

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Brendan Brady]

And like, we're gonna, we have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that and it'll be fine as well. But I just think that, like, yeah, when we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have, have exploded, you know, the economy, like the economy of scale on, on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make episode enough episodes. We don't contain them into certain locations. But also it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or a kind of a middling hit. You seem to win no matter what at that level. So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of like giving people backend again like these, these old ideas should be new, new, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Which they, which they have changed. So we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll have a question from a big fan.

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[Preet Bharara]

When it comes to the new Melania movie, here are some important numbers to remember. 40 million. That's how much Amazon paid Melania Trump's production studio for the rights to the film. It's the highest price ever paid for a documentary. 35 million. That's about how much Amazon spent marketing the film. 28 million. How much went to the first lady and 7 million. That's how much the Melania movie made on opening weekend, which is honestly pretty good and certainly more than many box office insiders projected. So how did this movie get made? Who's it for? And if this is finally Melania Trump's side of the story, what does she have to say? That's coming up on today, explained from Vox. Listen weekday afternoons, wherever you get your podcasts.

[The Vergecast Host]

Over the last several years, AI companies of all shapes and sizes have been desperately trying to get their hands on every bit of available data to make their models better. This week on the Vergecast, we have the story of how Anthropic destroyed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of books and fed them all to Claude. Plus, we have information on who in tech is in the Epstein files, what's going on with Netflix, whether it's woke, whether it's going to buy Warner Brothers, and whether Peloton is going to successfully sell you a treadmill ever again. All that on the Vergecast. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

We're back with Heathen Robbie's executive producers Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, who are behind the people behind this huge hit, heated rivalry. I'm friends with Eileen Chaikin, the executive producer of the L Word, Handmaid's Tale and many other shows. And of course, the groundbreaking sort of gay show in the United States was this one, which was many moons ago. She had a question. We're gonna play for you right now, Jacob.

[Eileen Chaikin]

I love your show. Absolutely. Congratulations. Here's my question. Our mutual friend, colleague, agent, ally, Matt Felker shared with me the outlandish and stupidly familiar story of getting heated rivalry on the air. All the rejections that preceded your fabulous and well deserved massive success. So do you feel vindicated? Pissed? Annoyed? Smugly satisfied? Grateful? Just enjoying the process. More determined than ever to tell sexy, queer human stories. Stories. Some other emotion that I didn't describe or perhaps haven't yet even experienced?

[Jacob Tierney]

That's a. It's a great question.

[Kara Swisher]

She's great. For people that don't know Elwood.

[Jacob Tierney]

Really brilliant show.

[Kara Swisher]

Groundbreaking.

[Jacob Tierney]

Absolutely.

[Kara Swisher]

At the time was shocking and showed people happy.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yes, it did. It showed a lot of complexity. I mean, yeah, it was a. Yeah, that's a real. Thank you for the question and thank you for, for being a fan of the show. That's so cool. And I'm sorry that Matt Felker is both of our agents. Joke. I love Matt Felker, but, you know, I can't pretend there isn't a part of me that's slightly smug. I mean, you know, a show like this, what we're experiencing here with this show is so like beyond the beyond in the land of. You can have a successful show, as I did with Letterkenny previously. And it does not explode in this way and this, this level of attention, you know, to not. I. I'm in therapy and I try to not be. I try to not be toxic exteriorly. And I think that the lesson that I want to take away from this Experience is to continue to trust myself creatively. Because that is the thing that paid off, is that I felt very strongly and I luckily had enough backing and support. Brendan primarily, obviously, and then my creative crave family, all these executives there. And. And I did trust something inside me that was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing what these folks want me to do. And I. I just. To be very clear, it wasn't just Americans. It was other Canadians too. It was a lot of people like this. They all like the lean in, like, oh, you have a gay hockey show with sex. And they were like, that's not what we meant. Too much sex, too much hockey, too little hockey, too little sex. Whatever it was, it was all like, why is it like this?

[Brendan Brady]

Can it be different?

[Jacob Tierney]

And I really was like, I don't.

[Brendan Brady]

Think it should be.

[Jacob Tierney]

I think it should be what it.

[Kara Swisher]

What was the craziest thing? My ex. Ex wife started plan it out and then. And they merged with gay.com and one of the venture capitalists said, couldn't they just be hip people versus gay people?

[Jacob Tierney]

I mean, listen.

[Kara Swisher]

And she said. She said. I. She was like, what? Like, I think that. Just hip.

[Jacob Tierney]

The thing that didn't. The thing that was the most. You don't get this note that we got, I think, was the idea of needing a female entry point into the show, because women wouldn't watch this show if there wasn't a woman protagonist. And I was like, you know, women read these books, women write these books. Gay men don't even know these books exist. Like, these are for women. And so the missing that gap in understanding. And I do think there's a thing with tv, you know, a lot of executives, they get. It feels like they get paid by the note. And so if they are not coming in with a big thought, what are they even doing in the room? The most of the best executives that I know are the people that actually speak the least. And that kind of trust in creators. And then when they do give an note, I take it, because this is somebody that is rowing in the same direction as me. This is somebody trying to make the same show as me.

[Kara Swisher]

So in general, we call it drive by editing.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah, there you go.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah.

[Jacob Tierney]

And so I. I think that there was such a misunderstanding of who the. What the audience wanted out of this. And what I chose to trust was my gut and the IP and the audience that was already enjoying it. And I was like, why would you change this when it's already being consumed and obsessed over to this degree. Why do you think you know more?

[Kara Swisher]

What about you, Ren?

[Brendan Brady]

Oh, I've also. Listen there. The best thing that happened was we. We are friends with a couple of folks who ended up passing because their. Their bosses wouldn't get on board. And getting them letting them come to us and be, like, I told my boss, look what you missed out. That is the fun part of the, like, kind of smugness, I think, you know, but to be honest, this has been absolutely nuts, Cara. Like, we're. This has been so crazy. It's so much than we ever thought. I think the.

[Kara Swisher]

Now everybody's your friend, right?

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah. But also, I just feel that I'm going to sound a little Pollyannish here, but I mean it. We are trying to also stay grounded by being of service to people. Part of the reason why we were at the CMPA thing with Mark Carney was to kind of raise awareness for our industry. And we're just trying to figure out ways to. To stay grounded with the people and the things that make, you know, we've got this incredible platform. We want to use it to. To actually promote positive issues. And we're hoping that that's what we can kind of do. And that's been the most fun thing that we've gotten to experience right now is like, hearing from people how their lives are being changed and how we are now able to actually affect a modicum of change, even if it's just pushing everything in the right direction. We're not going to change the entire universe here.

[Kara Swisher]

No, of course not.

[Brendan Brady]

But the specificity of the things we are able to change has been really positive and lovely.

[Kara Swisher]

So in that genre, I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process. Because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free.

[Jacob Tierney]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Like myself many years ago, or I have a lot of people coming to me, I'm like, it's great out here. Like, you don't need all that stuff. But let's talk. Let's hear what he had to say. And this is a very successful actor and producer.

[Jacob Tierney]

So you said Matt Damon.

[Brendan Brady]

Matt Damon, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

He's talking about the business.

[Jacob Tierney]

I've heard of him.

[Kara Swisher]

You've heard of him?

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon (clip)]

He imparted him, for instance, Netflix, you know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have, like, three set pieces. One in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, you kind of. They kind of ramp up. And the big one with all the explosions. And you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? You know, we want people to stay.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah.

[Matt Damon (clip)]

Tuned in and can. And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue, because people are on their phones while they're watching.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I mean? So talk about that. He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player.

[Brendan Brady]

But.

[Kara Swisher]

An old gay hockey.

[Jacob Tierney]

A retired one. Sure. I should be clear. I love Matt Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon.

[Kara Swisher]

So talk about that. What's happening now in the creation. Do you, either of you, feel pressure? Pressure?

[Jacob Tierney]

We have yet to really experience that, if I'm being perfectly honest, Crave was not like that. And I will say that part of what the reaction to the show that has been so kind of interesting to me is people saying, like, this is a show you have to pay attention to. If you're on your phone, you're not going to get it. Because it's so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people. It is dialogue as avoidance and obfuscation. And the storyline is actually really simple. They're in love. They can't. You can't admit it. So, like, it's actually not a super complicated plot in that way. But so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other, the ways in which they cannot speak. That's why the sex is so important, because that's when they're being honest. And so I think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification. That being said, you know, I. I don't. I wouldn't want to be too much.

[Brendan Brady]

Of a big deal about this.

[Jacob Tierney]

Like, everybody wants an opening that captures you.

[Brendan Brady]

Like, that's not new.

[Jacob Tierney]

Like that. That's been a note since the dawn of time with stories like, Let me. What's the first scene? Why are you capturing my attention? I don't think that's insane. And I think that, like, I think that that's, you know, I think that this thing, you can see it, I think, in a lot of streamers, you know, where you're like, oh, boy, you've just explained a thing to me that I already know. I get. I get that that can be frustrating. But I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me. This for the third time. And I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong. I did drift.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Jacob Tierney]

But look at you. And I think that there can be room. Popcorny, fun stuff that, like, I kind of don't care. And then every once in a while, something comes along and you need to pay attention, and that's okay, too. And then. And then it's up to you to choose. Do you. Is that too much for you? That's okay. Move it along.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I actually didn't look at my. I have a rule, like, how many. How many text looks isn't in a movie? How good is it if I don't pick it up at all?

[Jacob Tierney]

We have shows in my household with my boyfriend that we put on to be on our phones with. We're aware of this, and we think of them as like visual podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

The Grammys. Sure, Grammys was a good one. When you have the. The Netflix acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, we don't. I think we don't. You know, we have no actual information on that. I would say, again, we just want more competition in the marketplace. And I think that this. This is part. In Canada, in everywhere. Everywhere, really. But I think, you know, it's kind of to the point I was making about, like, is this system us working really well right now? I don't know. Is that good? Is this going to be good for creators? It's really hard to tell at this point, but I would say, like, I don't love that there's less places to go, because in Canada, what we have, like, the reason why we ended up on HBO around the World is because Crave and Bell Media have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's catalog. In Canada, we don't have any. So if we don't have hbo, you have Crave, and that has HBO on it. And so, like, if we don't have that on Crave, does that affect Crave? What happens to them? That's a big part of why people go there. I mean, now and now in heated rivalry, obviously. But, yeah, like, I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening. And I, for one, would love to see just more competition because they think it's way better when we have more.

[Jacob Tierney]

But what I would say is just that because we're an acquisition, you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved in the show. I think they, like. They say nice things about it, which is great. Exactly. So we're not, like. I think that that. That Part is not really going to change, at least in the foreseeable future.

[Kara Swisher]

So. But now, now that the show's blown up, they're not suddenly have an opinion about it.

[Jacob Tierney]

No, because they're still getting it for the same price. I think it's worked out great for them. It's worked out really right for them. Like this is a very success, successful acquisition and I mean it's clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the, you know. Yeah, I think that this is just like keep doing it guys. That's the. That's at least what Casey has explicitly quite said to us is like, keep going.

[Kara Swisher]

But it can go elsewhere. Right. Around the world.

[Jacob Tierney]

Correct. So it's been sold territory by territory or chunk of territory by territory in general, picked up by HBO outlets, Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand, a couple of other exceptions to that rule. But basically what they do is they buy it for and then they have an option on the second season and potentially third season. So they get. It's like a kind of a right of first refusal. So with. With an increase, they get it. So it's not really even to be renegotiated. It's just kind of like you either want this or you don't. There's no input into the content.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, Right. I have a couple more quick questions. One is about, obviously everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening, including with competition, with AI and stuff. Do you know, do you. Is there a big fear from you all about AI? Because this is the. Some of the big hits this year have been the most non AI type of content like Sinners weapons, yours.

[Jacob Tierney]

You know, I think that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I want each of you to.

[Jacob Tierney]

Tell me has more thoughts on this than I do.

[Brendan Brady]

Okay. Yeah, I think that, listen, there is going to be a place for AI in how we work in this business. I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities, but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind costuming. I don't think even scheduling, budgeting and prepping, like those kinds of things where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data. So much of our jobs are data driven, like just trying to get information. And I do think exactly. I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will see and where I would love for people to focus their attention because we were experiencing this and I'm sure Kara know you, you can, you have had this with your team, those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate. That is hard to do with AI in a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, okay, cool. We have now communicated together and we are on the aligned. And you're now going to.

[Kara Swisher]

Speaking of friction, your whole show's about friction.

[Brendan Brady]

Having a. Yeah, I think that. I think it's hard. I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.

[Kara Swisher]

I would agree. That's. That's exactly how I say it. I talk about it. I. The words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless, convenient. You know, they're always using those words. I'm like, no, friction's critical for you being here.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, 100%.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. What about you, Jacob? Do you think about it at all?

[Jacob Tierney]

Confuses me. No, is the answer. Like, I don't think. Like, I, I again, like the way that, the way that Brendan speaks it about it is like, that makes sense to me. I'm like, I can imagine it helping me with some stuff, but, like, it's not gonna write for me. I don't. I don't want that either. I love what I do. I don't wanna. I don't want someone. I don't need that kind of help, is the way I would say. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So before we go, what would you want to do if you could do anything like, you guys are now the world is your oyster kind of thing like, you can do. Obviously you're gonna do another season of this, maybe 2, 2, 3, whatever, because there's lots of books for people who don't realize. What would you want to make? Would you direct, say, a pointed Point Break remake with your agent?

[Jacob Tierney]

Another one where they finally Point Break.

[Kara Swisher]

The game where they finally fuck.

[Jacob Tierney]

I don't know that I'm very open to a father son story with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves. However.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, they do look alike.

[Jacob Tierney]

Do they really do. And Keanu's Canadian. He can come home. We can do a fun thing together. You know, we are being.

[Brendan Brady]

We.

[Jacob Tierney]

I'm certainly being offered a lot of things and. And yeah, I'm very excited about what's next.

[Kara Swisher]

And is there anything you're like.

[Jacob Tierney]

I can't really say, but I can tell you that once I can talk about a couple of things they are. One of which in particular is a dream come true. So, yeah, I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but I. I can't at this point, we've got.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, we also. We have a whole productions company that we're running with, like, a lot in development. So it's about getting these projects. The projects that I. You know, from a producer standpoint, what we really want to get made are we have a number of shows. The one that is about to go out is called the King is Dead, and I'm going to plug it right here because it's from an amazing, amazing, amazing indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine. Crave is already signed on for development. We're looking for that other partner because it's basically a. It's a action adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I know. Bear with us.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no. Hello, outlander.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, 100%. But it's a comedy about a group of indigenous folks tired of all of these white people coming to North America. They. They take a boat, traverse back to England in an attempt to kill King George iii.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God.

[Brendan Brady]

History.

[Jacob Tierney]

It's like Monty Pyon energy. It's very funny. And we're very excited about that show. Yeah.

[Brendan Brady]

So that's in development with Crave right now, and we're very excited about that one.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, well, everybody loves you. All the boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like. But you guys deserve equal amounts of attention. We think what you make is amazing.

[Eileen Chaikin]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. And in this time in the United States, it was just what was needed for now. So get that episode out. Get that special episode out.

[Brendan Brady]

We will do our best. And thank you for having us on.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thank you, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you, Jacob, and thank you, Brendan. Thanks to the audience for listening to our special bonus episode of Pivot. We'll be back in our feeds on Tuesday and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and tel Griffin. Brandon McFarlane engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Nishad Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer. Podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And, Scott, eat your heart out. I got the heat of rivalry, guys.

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