Internet’s Luigi Obsession, Biden Pardons, and Guest R.J. Cutler

Summary

Pivot Podcast Episode Summary Episode Title: Internet’s Luigi Obsession, Biden Pardons, and Guest R.J. Cutler Release Date: December 13, 2024

Hosts: Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist) and Scott Galloway (NYU Professor)

Guest: R.J. Cutler (Emmy-winning and Oscar-nominated Filmmaker)

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1. Introduction and Banter (02:04 - 04:45)

Kara and Scott begin the episode with their characteristic banter, discussing personal anecdotes such as Kara's birthday dinner at Benihana and Scott's upcoming travels to London, Riyadh, and Cape Town. Their light-hearted conversation sets a conversational tone for the episode.

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2. Biden’s Historic Pardons and Clemency Grants (07:00 - 10:05)

Discussion Points:

• President Joe Biden has issued the largest clemency grant by an American president, commuting the sentences of 1,500 individuals and pardoning 39 people.
• The pardons target nonviolent offenders confined under the COVID-19 CARES Act for over a year.
• There's ongoing debate about the potential use of blanket pardons for President-elect Trump's public adversaries, a move both hosts view skeptically.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway (08:28): “There's what they're supposed to be for.”
• Kara Swisher (08:32): “Not your friends or people who pay you.”

Insights:

• Scott emphasizes the importance of thoughtful and individualized pardons, critiquing the idea of blanket pardons which could undermine the system’s integrity.
• Both hosts express concern over politicizing the pardon system, fearing it could erode trust and fairness in the justice system.

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3. Rupert Murdoch’s Family Trust Dispute (12:01 - 15:03)

Discussion Points:

• A Nevada commissioner has blocked Rupert Murdoch’s attempt to alter his family trust, thwarting his plan to give Lachlan Murdoch sole control of his media empire.
• The commissioner cited bad faith in Rupert and Lachlan’s actions, ensuring equal control among Murdoch’s children who aren’t politically aligned with him.
• The move is seen as a strategic play to maintain balanced governance within News Corp.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway (14:09): “This is what has happened in Central America and nations all over the world throughout modern history.”
• Kara Swisher (15:03): “As Vanity Fair calls it. It's just a fiasco at the end of his life.”

Insights:

• The dispute highlights the complexities of succession in powerful media families and the potential for internal conflicts to impact corporate governance.
• Scott expresses personal disappointment in Rupert’s approach, emphasizing the importance of sibling unity over divisive legal maneuvers.

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4. GM Abandons Robo-Taxi Program Amid Rising Competition (15:30 - 18:26)

Discussion Points:

• General Motors (GM) is discontinuing its Cruise robo-taxi program after spending nearly a decade and $10 billion without achieving scalability, losing $3.48 billion in 2023.
• Competition from companies like Waymo, Aurora, and Zoox has intensified, making it difficult for GM to keep pace.
• Kara criticizes GM’s inability to leverage its strengths in the autonomous vehicle market.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway (17:02): “The entire category is overinvested and it's being the competitors here have access to such infinitely cheap capital.”
• Kara Swisher (17:36): “This is related, it's related cars, I guess, sort of autonomous vehicles, electric vehicles.”

Insights:

• The episode underscores the challenges traditional automakers face in the rapidly evolving autonomous vehicle industry dominated by tech-savvy and well-funded companies.
• Scott likens GM’s withdrawal to an unrelated industry entering an area where they lack synergy, questioning the strategic fit of such ventures.

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5. The Murder of Brian Thompson by Luigi Mangione and Societal Reactions (18:39 - 31:10)

Discussion Points:

• Luigi Mangione, a 26-year-old tech professional, has been charged with the murder of United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson.
• The episode explores Mangione’s online presence, societal reactions, and the broader implications related to the healthcare industry.
• Kara highlights how Mangione has been glorified in certain circles, with merchandise, playlists, and crypto coins being created in his name.
• Scott delves into the systemic issues within the U.S. healthcare system, critiquing the for-profit motives and lobbying that contribute to medical debt and inadequate care.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway (20:35): “The largest source of bankruptcy is medical debt.”
• Kara Swisher (25:18): “This is just such a snapshot of where people are.”
• Scott Galloway (26:07): “This is a form of revolution.”

Insights:

• Scott argues that Mangione’s actions are a symptom of deeper societal frustrations with the healthcare system, which pressures individuals through financial and systemic hardships.
• The conversation emphasizes the need for comprehensive healthcare reform, advocating for Medicare for All as a solution to prevent similar tragedies.

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6. Trump's FTC Appointment and its Impact on Big Tech (36:38 - 43:10)

Discussion Points:

• President Donald Trump has appointed Andrew Ferguson to lead the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), signaling a crackdown on Big Tech.
• Ferguson's agenda includes ending what he perceives as Big Tech's "vendetta against competition and free speech," aiming to roll back regulations on AI and mergers.
• Kara and Scott critique this move as "pay-to-play" politics, suggesting it favors wealthy corporations at the expense of consumer competition and lower prices.

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher (38:18): “This is just nakedly pay to play.”
• Scott Galloway (39:54): “No, Chairman Khan is there and the FTC and the DOJ are there to ensure there's competition which results in lower prices.”

Insights:

• The hosts express concern that Ferguson’s appointment could lead to reduced oversight of Big Tech, harming competition and potentially increasing consumer costs.
• Scott highlights the importance of maintaining regulatory bodies like the FTC to preserve market competition and protect consumer interests.

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7. Guest Interview: R.J. Cutler on His Documentaries (44:43 - 68:35)

Discussion Points:

• R.J. Cutler discusses his latest documentaries, including "Martha" about Martha Stewart and "Elton John: Never Too Late."
• The conversation delves into Martha Stewart’s entrepreneurial spirit, her handling of public image, and the challenges of portraying complex personalities in film.
• Cutler shares insights on the evolving documentary industry, the impact of streaming platforms like Netflix and Disney, and his future projects.

Notable Quotes:

• R.J. Cutler (45:27): “She's incredibly entrepreneurial and a survivor, someone who gets knocked down and gets right back up on her feet again.”
• Kara Swisher (54:24): “How do you deal with that now? Because you have this new film with Elton John, I'll note, you co-directed the film with David Furnish.”

Insights:

• Cutler emphasizes the importance of trust and authenticity in documentary filmmaking, especially when dealing with high-profile subjects.
• The discussion highlights the documentary resurgence driven by streaming platforms, creating more opportunities but also raising questions about content quality and focus.

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8. Predictions and Audience Engagement (71:32 - End)

Discussion Points:

• Scott predicts that Meta (Facebook) will have record earnings driven by increased political ad spending and societal rage.
• The hosts engage listeners with a poll regarding Time’s Person of the Year, reflecting diverse perspectives on influential figures.
• A brief mention of upcoming topics and encouragement for audience participation wraps up the main content.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway (71:34): “Meta is going to have their best earnings and unfortunately it’s a directly a function of the more fucked up in the head, the more angry we are.”
• Kara Swisher (74:26): “I think it's probably the right choice [Donald Trump].”

Insights:

• Scott’s analysis underscores the lucrative nature of heightened political and social tensions for social media giants, despite broader societal costs.
• The audience engagement segment reinforces the interactive nature of the podcast, inviting listeners to share their opinions and thoughts.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Pivot, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway navigate a myriad of pressing topics, from the implications of President Biden's pardons and Rupert Murdoch’s family trust battles to the societal backlash against the healthcare system exemplified by the tragic murder of United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson. Their insightful discussions extend to the challenges faced by traditional automakers in the autonomous vehicle race and the potential regulatory shifts under Trump’s FTC appointment targeting Big Tech.

The guest appearance by filmmaker R.J. Cutler adds depth to the conversation, exploring the intricate balance between authenticity and narrative control in documentaries about high-profile individuals like Martha Stewart and Elton John. The episode concludes with forward-looking predictions and an engaging call to action for listeners to participate in ongoing debates.

Notable Recommendations:

• Documentaries Mentioned:
  • Martha by R.J. Cutler (Netflix)
  • Elton John: Never Too Late by R.J. Cutler (Disney)
  • Frida by Carla Gutierrez
  • Sugarcane by Julian Brave Noisecat and Emily Cassie

Listener Engagement:

• Viewers are encouraged to participate in polls and share their thoughts on who should be Time’s Person of the Year, fostering a community-driven dialogue around influential figures.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for Pivot comes from AT and T. What's it like to get a new iPhone 16 Pro with AT&T next up Anytime. It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all of the mouth watering possibilities. Learn how to get your new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT&T and the latest iPhone every year with ATT. Next up anytime. ATT connecting changes everything. Apple Intelligence is coming in fall 2024 with Siri and device languages set to US English. Some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next Up Anytime feature may be discontinued at any time. Subject to change additional fees terms and Restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Ferragamo. It's the holidays and showing appreciation for those you care about is surely top of mind. Why not spoil your loved ones with a touch of luxury from Ferragamo? Each carefully wrapped gift tells a unique story and under our wrapping you can discover some beautifully crafted Ferragamo items. Join Ferragamo in celebrating the spirit of the holidays with a collection of the best of Italian craftsmanship. From small leather goods to the iconic hug handbag or signature loafers and belts. Visit ferragama.com to discover the most thoughtful holiday gifts for the entire family.

[Kara Swisher]

Hopefully one of us will go to the other's funeral. That's that will be the case, correct? Unless we die together.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you mean in case both of us go are killed on our way to Vox in the same car. Yeah, chances are that's going to happen.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, thank you for so many birthday wishes yesterday, including some photos that I think people were disturbed by of me hitting you on the ass.

[Scott Galloway]

There you go. And you know, at this point, Kara, we just have to celebrate Everything. When you get to this stage, you know, everything could be the last thing. So we're really trying to.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, stuff. Stop it.

[Scott Galloway]

Lean in and, you know, and celebrate. Celebrate the little things, show off the love.

[Kara Swisher]

You know where I went for my birthday dinner?

[Scott Galloway]

I don't. Where'd you go?

[Kara Swisher]

Benihana.

[Scott Galloway]

I love Benihana.

[Kara Swisher]

I love Benihana.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, they do a great job.

[Kara Swisher]

It's so pleasing. And I don't. Everyone's sort of surprised. I love the Benihana. I like the whole situation happening there.

[Scott Galloway]

They do a great job. What you get. Everyone gets the same thing, right?

[Kara Swisher]

You know, steak, chicken, blah, blah, blah and stuff like that. And then the whole. They do the whole exact same thing the whole time. And that's why it's comforting. And so my first set of children loved it, and now my second set of children love it. So it's working out very well, I think. Anyway, it's delicious. Where are you now? You're in London still, right?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I'm in London. Yeah. I'm going to Riyadh on Monday or Tuesday, and then I'm going to South Africa. I'm going to Cape Town for the holidays. Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Why did you pick Cape Town? It's beautiful there, I'm told. I've never been there.

[Scott Galloway]

I've only been there once, and it was in the middle of COVID which was fine, but it kind of put a strain on it, especially when my son started not feeling well. So I immediately started freaking out about some sort of crazy scenario trying to get my son into a hospital in South Africa. So it kind of put a little bit of a criminal. I remember we went on.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a modern country. It's a modern country, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

I know, but you're. When you're a parent, you don't think that way. And. Yeah, so we went on a game driver at a safari, and he ended up. He had. I think it was salmonella. Anyways, Was having stomach problems. So he would say, dad pulled a jeep over. I need to go to the bathroom. And he'd be like. He'd be walking into the bush and he'd say, give me some privacy. And I'm like, privacy? There's lions around here.

[Kara Swisher]

I think I wouldn't let him go bathroom in the Savannah.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, my boss, there's. There's a. No, I'm not going anywhere. Anyway, these are what you call high class problems. But Cape Town reminds me of what I've imagined California was like in the 60s. I think it's One of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to, I've heard.

[Kara Swisher]

And. And you're going there because why?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, because my sister is turning 40, 50, and we're going to take her and her family and the cousins are at a great age, same age as my kids. And so just super excited. And I was just so taken with the country when I was there the last time. I mean, Cape Town is one of those places. Just the raw beauty, like the wildness of it all, the ocean and the hills and it's an extraordinary, beautiful place. And also the food is really good, the people are really friendly. And this just drawing it to a conclusion that, you know, people not as crazy fortunate and privileged as me can appreciate is I do think there's some incredible. I love the idea of a lifestyle arbitrage and that is sometimes in your life you're blessed with the ability to work remotely or a lack of roots, which is both good and a bad thing. But I always ask people, are you in the midst of a period in your life where you could engage in a lifestyle arbitrage? And my three favorite lifestyle arbitrages, which is a fancy way of saying moving to a lower cost place, are Mexico City, which is still inexpensive and has an amazing art and food scene. Madrid, which is like the best of Europe at 60 to 80% of the price of a Munich or a London. Also, if you're really blessed with the ability to conduct remote work, I think Cape Town offers an extraordinary quality of life, especially if you can figure out a way to make money in dollars because of the weakness of the Rand. Anyways.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, interesting. Thank you for the travel tips. I'm just going to California, to my house in California. That's with all the kids.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, no lifestyle arbitrage. Moving to California right now.

[Kara Swisher]

I understand. But I have a beautiful house there. My kids love it and all four kids are going there. We're going to spend our holidays in the Californias. We love the California. I was just there this week, you know.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, you love it there. You have. I think you're. I think you're paving the way to either run for governor or mayor. San Francisco.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I. They just. I'm going to actually go see the new mayor of San Francisco, Daniel Lurie, who they just elected.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, really?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, he's. I know.

[Scott Galloway]

And he's a pragmatist, right?

[Kara Swisher]

He's kind of seems to be, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Is he one of the Haas heirs or the Levi's heirs? Is that right?

[Kara Swisher]

Sort of. It's Complicated, but yes. His mother was married to a Levi Ayers, so. And he's a great guy. He's a really interesting. You know, all of them were centery more century than you could imagine. Recently, I would say they're moving in that direction. More center left, I would say, than anything else. We'll see. But Daniel's just pregnant. He's a lovely guy. He ran an organization that was working on homeless and shoes and you know, the city looked great. I have to say, I had a great time there. Anyway, we got a lot to get to today, including Trump's FTC pic and the Internet's fascination with the United Healthcare shooting suspect. Plus, our friend of pivot is filmmaker RJ Cutler, whose latest documentaries on Martha Stewart and Elton John have a lot of people talking, particularly Martha herself. The first president Biden is commuting the sentences of 1,500 people and pardoning 39 people. Largest clemency grant by an American president a day. The commutations are geared toward individuals who've been placed on home control confinement for at least a year under the COVID 19 CARES Act. All recipients are nonviolent. The Biden administration reportedly still considering whether to use a blanket pardons for some of President elect Trump's public enemies, which both of us think is not a particularly good idea. I'm not sure what he'll do there if he'll have some dramatic. I thought he should have waited the hunter one till the last day. Even his, one of his top aides, former top aides Anita Dunn, is saying that the timing was really just awful. He seems to have disappeared into the hedges. I guess he's sores are gone.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, as, as should anyone in public life at that age. I don't, you know, and by the way, my sense of this, whether you agree with the pardons or not, this is what they're supposed to be for.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly. Not your friends or people who pay you. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

There's. You're supposed to take the time to be really thoughtful and have, you know, a great staff. Look at where whenever you systemize or routinize a process, there's going to be inefficiencies and injustice, whether it's veteran affairs or the prison system or, you know, how you evaluate affirmative. Whenever you try and routinize and get something scale, things are going to fall through the cracks here. And when you have, unfortunately, I think this is somewhat or unfortunately somewhat related to what we're going to talk about with the CEO shooting. When you inject a for profit motive into prisons. You have lobbying groups trying to get legislators to pass. Three strikes, you're out. Such that the population of people incarcerated goes up because they have a profit motive in getting more people in prison.

[Kara Swisher]

We have the most incarcerated public society in the world, hands down, hands down.

[Scott Galloway]

On almost every dimension. And then, and then it gets really frightening when you start looking at the demographics of the people locked up. But I don't, and I love this at the low end, it bothers me that there are certain municipalities, mostly run by Democrats, who have decided to not enforce the law at all. I think there's a problem there. But at the same time there are just so many people in my view who are in prison, who through work programs or monitoring or whatever that unfortunately have very powerful lobbies trying to keep them locked up such that their for profit prison system can garner another 30 to 50 grand a year. So I like this. I think this is what pardons were initially intended for.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's a question whether we should redo the presidential pardoning system. There should be a board that approves them. And so it's not this grab for power or lobbying on behalf of some like nonsensical person who's related to someone. And, you know, like these people come in and try to get pardons by carrying favor and stuff like that. And so they think the presidential pardon system feels a little king like to me. And I don't mind the commuting part, but I think there should maybe be a group that overlooks them rather than the president just getting to do it. Anyway, we'll see. This is a story that's really interesting. A Nevada commissioner has ruled against Rupert Murdoch's attempt to alter his family trust. What a sneaky old crocodile he is. But it didn't work to give his son, Lachlan Murdoch, sole control of his media empire. The decision means all of Murdoch's children who are not politically aligned with him, although I don't think they're that far off, will have equal control. The commissioner argued Rupert and Lachlan were acting in bad faith with the crest. Of course they were. Rupert reportedly plans to appeal. It can go to the next group and I'm not sure where it goes from there. But you know, this is just, it was just a round the edge attempt to control things beyond his death. You know, it'll be interesting to see what happens to these 90s, mid-90s, I think, what happens to this company. But he was trying to sell. They'll probably do a Deal. So Lachlan, they'll take some money or something. I guess that would be my guess. So Lachlan can keep running it. I think that's where they probably are right now. But one of the interesting things was they were talking about succession, the family itself, because they had watched the show where Logan Roy dies and they said we have to have a succession plan in place. And they called it that the succession memo. So. Which just makes me laugh hard. They all pretended it wasn't about them and then of course, now it was. So. Any thoughts? I think this will be interesting to see. There's a lot of assets there in News Corp. Well, this.

[Scott Galloway]

My understanding is this is never about economics. None of them were ever going to lose any sort of economic control or economic domain or ownership. This wasn't about reducing their wealth. This was about governance. And specifically, what it felt like was that either Rupert or Laughlin, we don't know, had decided that the kind of conservative sun should get to dictate how these companies are operating or specifically maintain their very conservative complexion, and that the other three siblings aren't necessarily on board with that. This wasn't about money, this was about governance and the political positioning of the properties. As I understand it, and I always go to the same thing. I don't. I mean, media is obsessed with itself and it wants to talk about this and it. Life imitates art. So it's a great story, but I come to the same place and that is, I just don't. What I don't understand and there's probably things I missed, but I had lunch with one of the Murdoch kids. Struck me as this infinitely reasonable, nice man.

[Kara Swisher]

And what I hate about this, the troublesome beneficiary. That's what he was called, anyway. Sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, what I hate about this is one of the things I worry about most, or I hope foremost, is that my two sons either aren't as close as I would like. And I hope that they're really close, specifically such that they take care of their mother and they just have family. Right. It has always shocked me how many really good siblings I know, independent of each other, that not only don't get along, they don't like each other. And I don't know if it's trauma when they were kids or competitiveness or oftentimes in wealthy families. Mom. One of them gets sick and one shows up and the other doesn't. They resent each other or there's fights over money. But I think that when your final acts as a human on this earth. And that pretty much defines every act of Rupert Murdoch right now. And maybe he's being manipulated, who knows? But I think, why on earth would you raise this ridiculously flimsy legal argument that never held water, in my opinion? Because the only argument you can make is you're doing it, you're doing it for economic reasons, to save the other fiduciaries from themselves.

[Kara Swisher]

That was his argument, actually. Let me read from this. The effort was an attempt to stack the deck in Lachlan Murdoch's favor after Rupert Murdoch's passing, so the succession would be immutable. The play may have worked, but in the evidence you're hearing, like the showdown in a game of poker is where gamesmanship collides with facts. And its conclusion, all the bluffs are called and the cards lie face up. Whoa. Jesus. Right, So I know, like it's true. That's what everyone thought. This is what he was doing. What's interesting, before you finish, the three other siblings, Prudence, Elizabeth and James, were not particularly aligned before this, before he tried this. They all have had difficulties with each other and among and between them because it's, you know, it's an obviously famous family. But what he's created here is a fiasco, as Vanity Fair calls it. It's just a fiasco at the end of his life. And for what? And for what, Princess? Because he's going to be dead. Sorry, Same thing with Prince Harry, by the way. In your country, Prince Harry and Prince William.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but I, but I think that's, I can understand that. That's Prince Harry making stupid decisions because of a hot woman. And all of us who have done that sometime in their life raise their hands. This is, in my view, a father or a son manipulating his father to create unneeded division, polarization and agita between siblings. And I can see as one of my last acts and virtue signaling saying, all right, I need you to be good to your little brother. Right? I need you to look after him or I need you to look after your big brother. I need the two of you to make every attempt to get along, not figure out some weird fucked up law that's going to pit one of them against the other or legal case. So I look at this through the lens of a dad. It's like, this is the last thing you want to do.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. I thought he would avoid this because they got along sort of. You know, there's always interplay between them. But anyway, I just. This is sad. We find this sad, Rupert. It's a sad end to your toxic life. Anyway, let's move on. GM is scrapping its cruise robo taxi program, citing time and cost needed to scale the rising competition. The company spent almost a decade and $10 billion developing. It lost $3.48 billion in 2023. GM owns 90% of Crews and intents to buy out remaining investors. Waymo is just running away. Run away with. I rode several Waymos in San Francisco and they're all over the city and they're now in Miami and Los Angeles. They're so far ahead of everybody else in this, in this market. You know, I just, you know, they, I don't mind that they tried this but you know, what do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, so first off, it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback. Companies need to innovate. The fact that they're unplugging it I think is a good decision because it's embarrassing. But when you're competing against Alphabet and Tesla, you're competing against the deepest pockets in the world.

[Kara Swisher]

And Tesla doesn't have cars out there. Let's just be clear. It's not.

[Scott Galloway]

I know, but they're spending a lot of money trying to figure it out. But this entire category is overinvested and it's being the competitors here have access to such infinitely cheap capital that to go toe to toe in an area where you don't already have pre existing platforms, workforce brands to enter this would be like in my opinion if General Motors decided they were going to go into the streaming market. I never understood what is their synergy.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it's related, it's related cars, I guess, sort of autonomous vehicles, electric vehicles.

[Scott Galloway]

This is about AI and what's that? LIDAR technology. I don't think this played to GM strengths at all.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought they should have partnered. That's, you know, in this case, you know, Jaguar partnered with Waymo. That's what you ride around in, these really lovely Jaguars and you know, it's actually a totally seamless experience and I, I use it a lot when I'm in San Francisco.

[Scott Galloway]

$10 billion and it's all a write off to go into this category like you said, without a capital partner competing against the cheapest capital in the world, this would be, I'm not exaggerating. This would be like Vox deciding that they were starting a video streaming network to compete against Netflix. They just don't. General Motors just doesn't have access to the capital to try and figure this shit out.

[Kara Swisher]

And they've been at it a while. I Ran into in San Francisco the woman who was chief engineer of the early Google programs on this. And it was so long ago we looked at. They've been at this for a while and very intent on it. And so it's just, you can't really compete with, with them. The two success, the ones that are ahead. And we'll see how successful. There's three of them actually right now and Tesla's not one of them at this moment. They could be, certainly is. Aurora, which was the guy who started the Google program. His name's Chris Urmson. We've had him on and that's more trucks, but he'll move into other buses and things like that because trucks are easier to make money at. There's Waymo and then there's. And the guy who runs Waymo is really, it's a woman and a man running it. Really smart people. And then, then Zoox, which is also smart people and that's owned by Amazon. So I feel like they're going to dominate this area and then use GM as a, you know, creator of they don't want to make cars. We'll see. But sorry, sorry gm, sorry that messed up for you. Anyway, let's get to our first big story. One of the biggest stories this week, obviously Luigi Mangione, the 26 year old man charged with the murder of United Health Care CEO Brian Thompson. There's a lot of information out there about his online presence. Everyone's digging for clues. There's been stories about whether that means anything or not. I think one of the best story I read was about him being kind of a typical tech bro. If he hadn't shot this guy, he would have seemed relatively normal in his interests. What was your first reaction when you started hearing about this guy? He stopped communicating with friends and family about six months ago and really went offline. He was quite an active online person, like a lot of people his age in his sector, in the tech sector, I think he was, he worked for TrueCar. I think he was a video game aficionado. He did have health issue over the last years on Reddit he talked about this back problem he had and struggled with Brain fog. John Herman wrote in New York magazine. What's most striking about the Mangione's extensive online dossier is that had it been studied before the shooting took place, it wouldn't have raised much alarm. Very difficult to characterize. Talk about that first, then we'll talk about the reaction from people.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, so first reaction is in my opinion, and you know, let me be arrogant here. I think the correct reaction is to feel sympathy for the family of this man who was murdered. And then, and then what I immediately registered was everybody decided that they would use this event to speculate on what happened to confirm their current beliefs. So people immediately went to this is justified because this is an uprising or this is, you know, the most shocking thing about this isn't about the murderer. I mean, that's a tragedy because when you're a young high school valedictorian with an engineering and computer science degree and master's degree respectively from an Ivy League university and you're handsome and in great shape and your life is over, that's a tragedy as well. But the reality is, any speculation around what was going through his head, you're just getting lost in the soup. We have no fucking idea. We don't know if he had a schizophrenic break. We don't know if he was a Ted Kaczynski like character who was a genius but came off the rail. We don't know. And you know what? It doesn't really matter in my opinion as much what matters or the most interesting thing here is how society has responded. And I can tell you how someone feels about this based on, with 70 or 80% accuracy based on one thing. Can you afford pretty easily health insurance? Because here's some data. 60% of bankruptcies are related to medical debt and the largest source of bankruptcy is medical debt. We pay $1,500 per person for pharmaceuticals versus $500 elsewhere, despite the fact that we manufacture and distribute them. We spend $13,000 a year on healthcare, despite the fact that everyone else pays 6,500 and we have lower health expectancies. People oftentimes compare healthcare to how I would describe San Francisco, expensive but bad in the US or healthcare in the US and you have essentially again going back to the prison system, when we have injected a for profit motive where the largest lobbying groups in Washington aren't big tech, they aren't the defense industry, they are the healthcare industry, which spends three quarters of a billion dollars and by the way, two thirds of lobbyists are former government officials. What you end up with is despite the fact that 70% of America supports price caps and universal health care, it doesn't happen because of the whores better known as our elected representatives, keep letting the pharmaceutical and the healthcare industrial complex maintain this mendacious fuckery duopoly of sugary, shitty food from the food industrial complex that gets you obese and then Hands you over to the diabetes industrial complex, which has created regulatory capture and charges too much money to people to die slowly. This is. Everyone is obsessed with this guy. That's wrong. Everyone is angry at CEOs. These CEOs of these companies are doing what they're supposed to do. And the thought that they're all of a sudden gonna re examine their ethics. What. Don't hold your breath, folks. The people who are at fault here are voters who have failed to find elected representatives, who have a backbone and start thinking about the tragedy of the commons that is healthcare in this country.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but what was interesting too is I think this reaction, and I think this. It's borne out from what you're saying. It's snowballed since the police captured this reaction to this young man, this troubled, very troubled young man. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro spoke about this. Let's listen.

[C]

I have no tolerance, nor should anyone, for one man using an illegal ghost gun to murder someone because he thinks his opinion matters most. In a civil society, we are all less safe when ideologues engage in vigilante justice. In some dark corners, this killer is being hailed as a hero. Hear me on this. He is no hero.

[Kara Swisher]

So it's interesting because I don't think it's in the dark corners. I think it's everywhere. People have been writing fan fiction. Etsy is full of merchandise. They call him Robin Hoodie. There's been Spotify playlists and crypto coins. His lawyer told CNN he's gotten offers from MEM to pay his legal fees. You know, this is just such a snapshot of where people are. They just have sort of had it. I don't know what else to say that and then laughing or making fun or being less than empathetic is to a murder victim is really terrible. But at the same time, that man isn't a person anymore. He's the insurance industry.

[C]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what he represents. And perhaps he is in some ways. So just so you know, major insurance stocks include, including UnitedHealthcare, have fallen more than 6% since their closing prices the day before the shooting. There may be some Wall street anticipation of moves. There's some moves to UnitedHealthcare for I don't know how got a hold of pharmacies. They loaned the money and then in a usury way, and then took control of them. There's a bipartisan effort to not. They should not be owning pharmacies. They should not be owning hospitals. They put people out of business. That's an astonishing thing. I didn't know about. So talk about the justice in place, like giving this guy a lot of attention and you know, making him in kind of, as I said, this folk hero who's not a folk hero, sort of an unfortunate folk hero. And what's going to happen to the insurance industry?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, so in my opinion, the solver versus engineers are the same place. And that is when a nation gets to this point of income inequality where six people control as much wealth and the wealthiest nation in the world as the bottom half, you have a self correction. And that's the good news. Income inequality always self corrects. The bad news is that the means or the vehicles of self correction are war, famine or revolution. And I would argue this is a form of revolution. I believe the MeToo movements and the Black Lives Matters movements, which both had righteous components of them. But the thing all of these things have in common is the following. They're going after the 1%. And effectively what happens is people decide if the 1% is making more money than the bottom 99. At some point the bottom 99 figures out the best way to double their wealth is to either show up and kill these people, tell them to move out of the country or to shame them. This is what has happened in Central America and nations all over the world throughout modern history. And this is a form of revolution. When people decide, when they see that insurance companies have a profit motive in denying claims, when they see insurance companies and their shareholders consistently getting richer and they also know somebody whose wife got lung cancer which meant they were going to be bankrupt two years later, they start to get enraged. This is a form of revolution. And the support for this person.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I make a comparison though? I'd love you. Because like, look, this happens with the shootings, all the gun, everyone in America wants gun control, except for a small loud. It's minority rule, the tyranny of minority rule. Right.

[Scott Galloway]

It's capture of our government by rich people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And this is what happens in democracies without stronger institutions is rich people who don't see themselves as bad people and they usually aren't, say let's vote for people that will put in place regulations and put in place subsidies that we get richer and richer and richer. And at some point people wake up and go, you know what, I've had it. And they grabbed their torches and this is a form of that. This is a form of revolution. And as long as we have elected representatives that continue to soak the bottom 90 or the bottom 99, I mean do you realize how insane our healthcare system is right now?

[Kara Swisher]

It really is. I just had, I just, Scott knows this. When I part of being in San Francisco, my doctors were all there and I had my annual everything and there were a few things that needed special tests. And the struggle I had with the insurance company was insane. And the doctors just shrugged. They're like, this is how you get around. Literally, it was like I felt like I was in Russia. Like, remember in the old days? This is how you get around and get the meat for your table, right? I was like, what in the world? This makes no sense. These are, you know, you know, and I'm sure there's, there's abuse, of course, and they're trying to protect against abuse and, and people trying to trick them, but most people are just there to get tests, right? Like basic. It was so frustrating.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me just give you some, let me give you some examples here. A mother who's taking care of a child with childhood diabetes. And let's be honest, it was a mom, she spends five months of her year handling that child's health care. And a lot of it is on the phone arguing with insurance companies who have a vested interest in making friction and difficulty in you getting your claims. How does she feel about this shooting? I'm not saying she's an evil person. And I was on Anderson Cooper last night. I've essentially become everyone's booty call. When someone cancels, they call me and say, bring him on.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And Anderson pointed out, he said, I know you canceled your health insurance seven years ago. And I did. Why? Because health insurance 45 cents on the dollar goes to profits and administration, meaning for every dollar you give to health insurance, you're going to get 55 cents in claims back. And their job is to make sure it's 54, then 53 and 52. And might they not make it more difficult for you or more reasons to cut your anesthesia early or decide you're outside of their coverage zone, whatever it might be. And so what I decided was at $50,000 a year, which was my insurance because I'm a narcissist and I want the gold plated one. So I went naked. The last seven years, I've saved $350,000 in health insurance premiums, which will buy a lot of health care. But again, this is the problem, and I want to be very clear, give me a second here, because I don't want anyone to interpret this incorrectly. I am not suggesting that lower middle income people ever give up their Health insurance. But the reason I can do it is because I am wealthy enough that I can absorb any health emergency. So this is yet another transfer of wealth from lower and middle income people who cannot take the risks I can take and I can opt out of this usurous, ridiculously expensive regulatory capture infrastructure called the health insurance system. We need to take Medicare, it's at 65 now, lower the age limit every year, and essentially we need universal health care.

[Kara Swisher]

Medicare for all.

[Scott Galloway]

Medicare for all. And do it slowly, do it slowly, do it over 44 years until you get to 21, and then maybe go all the way down to zero. But something is wrong in Mudville. The profit motive injected here with Citizens United, where people were, where democracy is no longer about people voting, but about dollars. Voting has led to a healthcare system where we are trading despair and anguish for shareholder value. And that's where we are in America is the tail that wags every dog is shareholder value.

[Kara Swisher]

It is, as you know, when I was talking about income inequality to one of the billionaires many years in my book where I said, you're either going to have to deal with income inequality or armor plate your Tesla, because that's where we're going. This is exactly, this is the place it comes to. And I will say at the time I thought he wanted to arm, he wanted to armor plate his tail. He liked that idea like that he would protect himself and his family from the poor people that were coming for him.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, he's a weirdo. I was just in Brazil. I had lunch or I had dinner and drinks with one of the wealthier or one of the more famous business people there. He drives around in an armored car with a security guard. You don't want to live like that.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. It's a shitty way to live. I agree. This is something that maybe will. Something that Democrats, Democrats. I talked to Ro Khanna this week. Can really focus in on is healthcare. They've sort of banged their head up against the wall with gun control, which still they should continue to bang their head up against the wall. But this is something that I think really does appeal to people. If you get real changes here, something Mark Cuban's been working on and others. So it's a good area to do something to help people. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back, we'll talk about Trump's pick for the FTC and talk to filmmaker RJ Cutler about Martha Stewart's critique of his documentary about her support for Pivot comes from AT&T what does it feel like to get a new iPhone 16 Pro with at and T? Next Up Anytime. It's like when you first pick up those tongs and now you're the one running the grill. It's indescribable, like something you've never felt before. All the mouthwatering anticipation of new possibilities, whether it's making a perfect cheeseburger or treating your family to a grilled baked potato, which you know will forever change the way they look at potatoes. With AT and T Next Up Anytime you can feel this way again and again. Learn how to get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT&T and the latest iPhone every year with AT and T. Next Up Anytime ATT Connecting changes everything. Apple intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set to US English. Some features and language will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next Up Anytime feature may be discontinued at any time, subject to change additional fees. Terms and Restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back with our second big story. President like Donald Trump is named Andrew Ferguson to lead the ftc, elevating a current Republican member of the agency. Ferguson posted on X after Trump's announcement saying we will end Big Tech's vendetta against competition and free speech. He's sort of on the Elon side. Well those people, I'm not sure free speech is what they're talking about. He's on the tech is censoring everybody and we must stop them. Lina Khan it ends Lina Khan era. Ferguson called for rolling back of some of Khan's agenda, including efforts to regulate AI and abandoning tougher standards for mergers. He's sort of open season on MER like he's gonna mergers are gonna happen like crazy. People can disagree or not agree. I ridiculous this idea that Big Tech is this free speech quasher is just sort of it illuminates the right and he did a one page memo for his job. He's quite thirsty but interesting person. With Trump appearing, he's declaring war on his ftc, FTC and antitrust choices. With these choices he's declaring war on Big Tech. He's trying to stay and at the same time they're trying to stay in his good graces because they're suck ups eternally. Meta announced a $1 million donation to Trump's inaugural fund. According to the Wall. This follows Mark Zuckerberg's recent trip to Mar a Lago he met with Trump as well as Marco Rubio and Stephen Miller. He's done a lot of ring kissing. Trump had threatened him with prison over whether he tried to affect the election. Bezos is doing the same. This is something they have to do. Although Mark did say he wasn't gonna get involved. Just the way Elon said he wasn't getting involved. They're all gonna get involved. Cause it's in their business interests. Any thoughts on where we're headed now with Big Tech and the Trump administration?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, again, we've just gone full kleptocrat. It's like, okay, you clearly don't support this person, but you're going to give a million dollars to their inauguration.

[Kara Swisher]

Because never done it. He's never, I think they haven't done it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Because you've figured out this is just, I mean this is just nakedly pay to play. And I don't fault Mark Zuckerberg. I fault us for electing somebody who's decided to take us to a kleptocracy or kakistocracy. What's it called?

[Kara Swisher]

What's like cacastocracy.

[Scott Galloway]

I just, you know, fine. This is pretty obvious. I don't, I, I have trouble believing that Jeff Bezos is really optimistic about Donald Trump. The, the interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

He's just going to sail off on his yacht. That's armor plated.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I, you know, look, you're going to see a boom in M and A. I actually think you're going to see a boom in IPOs over in 25. People are excited about it. But again, again, the reason we block these mergers, folks, is such that there's more competition and lower prices on consumers. And when you don't block these mergers, usually what ends up happening is there's a transfer of wealth from consumers, especially low end consumers. And there's a transfer of wealth to shareholders. And there's some benefits to that. A lot of people own shares. But corporate profits are at an all time high and wages have been stagnant in the minimum. I mean, at some point there's always a healthy tension between capital and labor. But capital has been kicking the shit, specifically shareholders out of labor for 40 years now. And this is back, this is a continu. It kind of got cauterized for about four years with Biden, but now, again, we're full shareholder mode.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, Lina Khan did get a good hit on her way out. She scored a victory. Both the federal and state judge blocked Kroger's acquisition of grocery rival Albertsons. Albertsons has since backed out of the deal and sued Kroger for breach of contract. It would have been the largest grocery merger in U.S. history. What do you think about it falling apart? Interesting. She did. She does. She's. She's really badassing her way out the door, which I kind of love.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. You know what? I'm personally happy for Chairman Khan or Chair Khan, Chairperson Khan or just Chair Khan, which sounds like a Star Trek figure.

[Kara Swisher]

It does. I think it is. Anyway, thoughts on Lena?

[Scott Galloway]

I think Shere Khan served well. I'm happy for her personally. She's going to go on at a very young age to make a shit ton of money and have less stress and not have people hate her because for whatever reason, I think it's bad for the economy. I don't. Again, this is whatever's good in the short term for a sugar high for the shareholder class, you need competition. And the notion, whenever we look back, I challenge people to say, oh, my God, we really screwed up blocking that merger. We absolutely should have done it. Or, oh, my gosh, what a mistake breaking up at and T said no one ever. These people are there to lower prices on consumers. And if you think, okay, these acquisitions should.

[Kara Swisher]

People can make prices, raise prices, not lower them. They're there to raise prices on consumers is what you're saying.

[Scott Galloway]

I think Chairman Khan is there and the FTC and the DOJ are there to ensure there's competition which results in lower prices. And when you look at how consolidated our market has become, whether it's home improvement, whether it's obviously big tech pharma chicken, when you look at just the concentration of power, you need somebody saying no. And Albertson and Kroger's. I initially was sort of, okay, was this just populist bullshit where they're just trying to create a more unified, bulky response to Amazon? I think that's a decent argument. But I trust the economists at the FTC did the analysis and said, food prices are going to go up, up. So be careful. You know, a lack of concentration of power is not the problem in our economy right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, you and I feel the same way. No, one of the things. Let me tell you how you compete. Albertson and Kroger's and Giant Food here in Washington. You're good at what you do. Wegmans. Let me just say, Wegmans fucking rocks. And you know why? Because it's a great product. Right. They're not here bellyaching. They're just making a great store. Right. And so this, to me, some consolidation, like this is always an excuse because you sucked. You just sucked. And you just want to get bigger and win that way. I just feel it's so. Those stores do not get better for consumers. They don't. The cheap. It's not even a better experience. They just don't get better.

[Scott Galloway]

Or Trader Joe's or Lidl L I D. Lidl. They're called Lidl Lidl.

[Kara Swisher]

We had this debate in our family because they're just one that opened great store inexpensive 45% croissants that are delicious. Like, how do they do that? You know? And they're wonderful. Like. Anyway, I just. I. This is going to be, you know, open season for merger. Merger lawyers. They'll be able to just kill it. That's not. Mergering. Is not. Is not. It's not innovating. It just isn't. It just isn't. It means you can't innovate.

[Scott Galloway]

You know my Wegmans story, right?

[Kara Swisher]

No, tell me. I love Wegmans. I live above a Wegmans right now.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you? I almost married into the Wegmans family.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Love of. Kind of love of my life at that point. A wonderful woman. And she was one of the heiresses to the Wegman fortune. And the first thing, like, our second date. Our first date. I forget where. I took her, like, to, you know, one of my lame things, like, I don't know, La Skeena or something. And then on our second date, she took me to a Wegman store.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh.

[Scott Galloway]

And she was like, they're like, the family is so into it. And as you can imagine. And anyways, that's why it rocks. And I remember thinking all this could be mine.

[Kara Swisher]

And then you. You blew it. Is this like a Patty Stone cyber story that you really didn't. I'm gonna get a call from Wegman Air and say, no, I.

[Scott Galloway]

No, we don't know this guy. Yeah, he was just sending her strange emails.

[Kara Swisher]

I feel like I'm gonna get a Wegman call. I just don't care. We love you, but Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

No, no, this is. This was the real deal. This was. I was very much in love with her. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. Okay. Could have been you. You could have been. You could have been running Wegmans right now. Anyway, it's an interesting time. We'll see. I think they're going to be able to merge everything. People who can't compete are thrilled. That's what I feel like. Anyway, let's bring in our friend, a pivot RJ Cutler is an Emmy winning and Oscar nominated filmmaker who's had a very busy year. He directed and produced the documentary Martha about Martha Stewart, which is currently on Netflix. His latest film, Elton John Never Too Late is out on Disney. Welcome rj.

[C]

Thank you for having me. So happy to be here.

[Kara Swisher]

So I loved this documentary. Well, let's start with that, the Martha Stewart one. I have not seen your Elton John, but I'm gonna watch it today. But it's been very popular on Netflix though Martha herself had some strong, not so positive reactions. I remember her telling me about doing this when I was at her home in Connecticut. Let's talk a little bit about the film and why you did it and I guess her issues. She took issue of how she was filmed, what you chose to focus on and communication with her during the production. But talk a little bit about the documentary itself and what you were trying. I. It was exactly what Martha Stewart is like, I thought, knowing her for so long.

[C]

Well, thank you. I agree with you. And I feel Martha's come round. I will say bless her.

[Kara Swisher]

It's popular.

[C]

And of course I'm empathetic towards her for how challenging it must have been to see the film and relive all of those different aspects of her life. But I met Martha a few years ago at a dinner that she came to and we were seated next to each other. And as you know, since you know her, her background is so fascinating. Her life is so. She's really lived the kind of quintessential American womanhood life of the 20th century, latter part of the 20th century, early part of the 21st. And what an extraordinary story there was to tell about her. It's almost a movie when you just hear the outlines of it. You can imagine the film, this incredible rise from such humble beginnings. A woman who has to go to work as a model in order to put food on the table for her family. An alcoholic and abusive father whose love she yearned for and has in many ways spent her whole life trying to achieve. And a visionary, a pioneer visionary and in many ways brought down by the patriarchy and overcomes that. You know, there's so much to tell.

[Kara Swisher]

One thing that I thought was that I liked about it and away from all this stuff about her husband and all the different and various things was her entrepreneurship. I think that's what people, three people that I don't think get celebrated enough. Women would be Taylor Swift, Dolly Parton and Martha Stewart. Right. And Oprah, I suppose on some level, same thing. Very heavy duty Entrepreneurs, where people tend to focus on everything but their business acumen. And she's had some stumbles, but overwhelmingly she's like reinvented. Reinvented, recreated, remade. You know, she's the first person who started talking about AI. She came to my conference for 20 years, like at my tech conference.

[C]

She reinvented retail, right. With her Kmart deal. She knew that content was king. When everybody was saying to her that synergy was a bad thing and that one, one medium would cannibalize the other, she recognized that brand was the most powerful thing she saw influencing before there was such a verb. And you're right, the focus is on her handbags. The focus is on her swimsuits.

[Kara Swisher]

Although that was entrepreneurial. I thought, I thought that was marketing.

[C]

That's right. Everything she does. Now look at. I mean, I get text messages from Martha Stewart Ink all day long. And I've got to say, is this from Martha the person, or am I. Am I being asked to buy another product? She's incredibly entrepreneurial and as you point out, a survivor, someone who gets knocked down and gets right back up on her feet again.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that's an entrepreneur. That's an entrepreneur.

[C]

Oh, that's a good point. And someone who sees the future and is focused on the future. Which by the way, is why I think for her it was challenging to make a film. But God bless her for the courage to do so. You know, she does, she did, she said a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me get to Scott's question. Scott, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Nice to meet you, rj.

[C]

Likewise.

[Scott Galloway]

I'll just prefer to. This is a thesis. Not gonna respond to it. I think Martha Stewart is. There's no doubt about it. She's a genius and innovator. Even deciding to partner with Snoop Dogg. Most corporations would say that's too big a risk. And she did it. And the contrast was just so fascinating and so kind of joyous. I mean, she just has an innate sense for brand. Hugely successful. I also think she to a certain extent represents what happens when that kind of success gives you attacks your self awareness. Because the reality is as much of a hero as she is, she lied to federal investigators, went to prison for insider trading.

[Kara Swisher]

No, she didn't. Scott, let me be clear. She didn't go for insider trading. She went for lying.

[Scott Galloway]

Stock parking. What was it?

[C]

No, she didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

She went for lying. No.

[Scott Galloway]

Obstruction of justice.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

Well, for lying to a federal investigator.

[Scott Galloway]

Isn't that what I said? Lying to federal investigators.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but you said for insider trading. She Was not.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, she was being investigated for insider trading.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[C]

But Comey was. Comey was very. Comey was very explicit about the fact that he was not indicting her for insider trading.

[Scott Galloway]

And the clips I've seen, the clips I've seen have. Quite frankly, when she talks about her personal life, I would argue that she has demonstrated to me a striking lack of self awareness. And this, to me, what your documentary sort of showed me was that men and women at this level, you know what happens. She's inspiring, she's fantastic. But what I find is when you recognize this kind of success, many people, including her, and I would argue the vast majority of tech executives who are generally. Are generally male, it seems to attack their self awareness. I'm curious, and I would imagine some of those moments that you depicted, I thought pretty thoughtfully she was not fond of your thoughts on this notion that once you get to a certain level of power, it is so difficult to maintain any sense of perspective around rationalizing, quite frankly, wrongdoing.

[C]

Well, I want to say it's such an interesting question, and I want to say that one of the, you know, privileges and opportunities and joys of making films is that they're literary and we're in a realm of, you know, of kind of. For Martha, there's the character of the unreliable narrator and there's that complexity that we get into. So when you ask that question, Scott, I'm gratified because. Because that is one of the issues that the film raises and is how does Martha kind of craft her own narrative? And we see, listen, we have an incoming president who, not unlike Martha, cut their teeth in the public eye in their relationship with the New York media. And so these very things that you're talking about are an essential in the culture. You know, at the same time, Martha has this, in a way, this gift that you're pointing out. She understands that authenticity. We're talking on one hand about manipulation of narrative. At the same time, Martha's brand is authenticity. She goes to the New York Times and complains about her documentary. She also understands that authenticity in a fractured culture is going to be essential. She sees it decades before the culture fractures in the way it's fractured now. So there's all sorts of complexities in here, and that's why she's such a great subject for a film like this.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I thought those were amazing moments when she did that. And I thought, oh, here she goes, because she's done it with me, like she does it. And you're sort of watching it happen. And you're trying to figure out what calculation is going on in her head, if at all. I think it's instinctual.

[C]

Yeah. At the same time, she's willing to admit without reservation that she cheated on her husband during her honeymoon.

[Scott Galloway]

But did you? The way she described it was the most fascinating thing. I fell in love with a handsome man, but it wasn't really cheating. Just the way she framed her infidelity versus his. His was a crime against humanity. And hers was understandable. I just thought it was fascinating.

[Kara Swisher]

It was just a kiss, Scott.

[C]

Well, maybe this is. Yeah, maybe this is the point. The point you guys are making, which is that entrepreneurial. To be an entrepreneur is to create a version of reality that we then all buy into.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me ask you a follow up on that. Because one of the things that's interesting in this day and age especially, and it's something Scott and I talk a lot about, is performativeness. Right. Whether it's Elon Musk or Bill Ackman or whoever. Every big personality now has to have total control. And then they have to be so performative and ridiculous publicly. Where they didn't used to be, they just did. Martha was one of the few that was a larger than life kind of personality. For good and bad. Like she'd say the good and bad things. How do you deal with that now? Because you have this new film with Elton John, I'll note, you co directed the film with David, furnish his husband. How do. That's a problematic situation you have there. If you find things that aren't so pretty. Right. How do you deal with these people who want total control and maybe talk a little bit about that film too, and the Martha film?

[C]

Yeah, for me, I'm in the privileged position of being a final cut director. That is the relationship that I have with all my subjects. It's been that way my whole career. But it's been kind of formal since I made the September issue about Anna Wintour and generally, and we speak about this as close to the beginning of the process as possible. Because I'm not gonna make the film otherwise. With Elton and David, the great opportunity, first of all, to know Elton John is to know that he, you know, there are no secrets. I mean, he's been a very open book about his drug addictions, his sex addictions, his struggles. He's had to overcome his sobriety. And I knew with David, I was going to have the opportunity to kind of delve into an area of emotional accessibility that I otherwise would not have had. So that was an opportunity that I embraced. Certainly I had to go in with open eyes and a healthy skepticism, but I found that the relationship ended up being exactly what I had hoped it would be. And the film, when you see it, you'll see it's an extremely emotional film. I'm not sure I could have gotten to that without that partnership, without the level of trust that Elton had. But generally speaking, when you're in control, you're in control. You just have to be able to say no. And Martha, it's no secret there were issues. She wanted me to change things, and I had to be comfortable saying, look, I respect that. I understand why you're asking for it. I'm happy to talk through why I think it's important that you're in the garden at the end of the film, which is the central metaphor of the movie. And I think you look beautiful in those shots. And trust me, when they're color corrected, you'll look even more beautiful, you know, and as I say, I think Martha has come around to see the film's virtues and that, you know, dare I say it, we were right.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Also, she's popular. She's popular is something that she likes.

[C]

And which is the most important thing. And by the way, way one of the things we talked about, she would say, no one's gonna like this. And I would say, I think you, you know, I get it, I understand the anxiety, but, you know, we've gotten this far together. Please trust me.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Scott.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I. I mean, I'm just thinking about it. I love what she's likely meant for women and the fact that you could be kind of a bring what was typically thought of as these male associations of drive and being a little bit cutthroat and making a shit ton of money. Money while engaging in a business that was largely seen as a domain of more femininity. You could be fantastic at figuring out tabletop, but at the same time understand shareholder value. I gotta think she's meant a lot to a lot of female entrepreneurs over the last several decades. Anyway, statement there. I'm curious, as a documentary maker, over the last. You've been doing this a while. You're gonna be doing it for a while. How has the business changed for you? I mean, this is such a. This ecosystem is going through so much disruption in terms of how you get funding, in terms of how you get distribution, in terms of how you make money. How has this world changed for a world class documentary maker?

[C]

Well, it's changed dramatically. I mean, when I started out, my mentors were DA Pennebaker and Chris Hedged. DA Pennebaker is one of the founders of the American documentary movement in the early 1960s, the verite movement. And for those folks, the idea of documentary is popular. Art was a vision. They saw it, but it wasn't realized fully. Certainly there were a couple of films like Don't Look Back or Give Me Shelter that drew audiences, but most films, most documentaries were not seen by the public. They didn't have a platform, they didn't have. Have an outlet. And I remember we made the War Room. That was a very, very popular film. When that.

[Kara Swisher]

When that came out, great, great documentary.

[C]

And people would line up around the blocks and around the block. I remember it ran for six months in Georgetown. You know, there was. George Stephanopoulos was a matinee idol, and James was like, you know, was the. Was larger than life and a bit of a movie star. And you saw that vision starting to come to fruition. But there was nowhere except hbo, under the leadership of Sheila Nevins, that was actually airing these films. So there were no. There were very few career filmmakers. That was very difficult. And then the form started to take off. And I remember going to film festivals and running into Ted Sarandos, and he would tell me that the War Room, this was back in the days of, you know, when Netflix was a red envelope, was sending out DVDs and envelopes. And he would tell me that the War Room was one of the most popular films that his membership would request. That's the film that was one of the films they wanted to see. And he would always point out that documentaries were incredibly successful. So when they started doing original productions, documentary was a big part of the vision that he had for Netflix, and that changed everything. And now you had evidence, and they have, as we know, they know to the eyes who's watching what, and they know the value of these films. Now, the vision of the American documentary movement that was formed in the early 60s is coming. It comes to fruition, and you have an industry. And sure, the industry is going to have ups and downs, and there are going to be difficulties and there's going to be frustration because the more popular films are going to get Menendez.

[Kara Swisher]

Menendez crime.

[C]

Right, right. Because it's going to be crime, it's going to be celebrity. And then you get into the question of what? Well, where's the quality with those films? And of course, you know, I argue it's a popular art form, and you can have great Films that are about famous people, as you do with narrative. You know, you can have Maestro and you can have Oppenheimer and you can have Complete Unknown or you can have films that aren't as good. It's not whether the. The subject is famous or not, it's whether it's where the quality of the filmmaking is. But because documentary also tends to be, you know, there's a rich history of activism in documentary. There's going to be complexities and frustrations when you're dealing with, you know, with streamers who are looking for eyeballs. And so it's always going to be complicated. But the business as from a whole, you know, I'm. I'm a. You know, my. The folks who know me know I'm an optimist. Look, we have to be industrious. We have to.

[Scott Galloway]

The.

[C]

One of the very first things Pennebaker ever said to me was if you're going to make documentaries, you have to have a bank robber's mentality. You got to, you know, travel light and always be able to make a run for. Ready to make a run for it. And what, you know, what he meant is we have to be industrious. We have to find we are not the mainstream of the entertainment industry. We're coming in from the angles and we're coming in with different objectives and different approaches.

[Scott Galloway]

But, but let me just add, I actually think the key to. The key to being a successful DOC filmmaker is that you have an exceptionally fucking rich spouse.

[Kara Swisher]

Stop it.

[C]

That. You know what? That's what it used to be. That's what it used to be for. When I started, you were making. You'd make a film, it would take you three years. You'd go broke, and unless you had access to more money, you wouldn't do it.

[Scott Galloway]

You spent $3 million to get half a million and go collect awards at film festivals. And.

[C]

That's right.

[Kara Swisher]

But they have changed. This is a huge hit on Netflix.

[C]

That has changed. We have an industry and a community and career filmmakers. And for the. The optimistic perspective sees this as an incredible time. People like Alex Gibney are making beautiful films and are pushing the form. I mean, if you look at the films that are going to be nominated when the shortlist comes out next for documentary, if you look at any one of the films that's going to be on that 15 film list, you're going to see beautiful movies, a great art.

[Kara Swisher]

Who would be your dream subject next? Who are you working or who are you working on next? And who would be Your dream subject.

[Scott Galloway]

Great question.

[C]

Well, I'm in the middle of working on a film about this last World Series that's going to be on Apple. I'm very excited about that. As a big baseball fan, I've had a lot of passion for that subject and getting into the guts of it is really exciting and interesting to me. I think Steve Cohn would be a great subject and it's very interesting as a sports owner.

[Scott Galloway]

The Trader SA Capitol. That's who.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that guy. Yeah, that's who he's talking about.

[C]

Yeah. He owns the New York Mets. He just signed Juan Soto to the largest contract of any athlete in history. But he sees his ownership as public service. And that is a very interesting thing because every fan also.

[Kara Swisher]

And then he's got the history of being sort of a rapacious capitalist too. Like what?

[C]

Yeah, so he's a really. He's a really interesting subject and I'd love to make a film about him.

[Kara Swisher]

That would be a great film.

[C]

Yeah, different. Listen, different opportunities come along and, you know, we.

[Kara Swisher]

So Steve Cohen is your dream subject?

[C]

Well, next one on my mind. I'm a Mets fan. You know, I've been there my whole life.

[Scott Galloway]

That's your baseball fetish coming out. Just real quick. Two docs. Two or three docs you would recommend we go find that maybe people haven't heard of.

[C]

Yeah, I would say take a look at Frida, which is such a beautiful film about Frida Kahlo that Carla Gutierrez made. And I would encourage people to see a film called Sugarcane, which is a beautiful and heartbreaking film about the abuses of Native American children at Catholic church run boarding schools made by Julian Brave Noisecat and Emily Cassie.

[Scott Galloway]

In Canada. Is that the one?

[C]

Yes, it's in Canada, but you know, I mean, Joe Biden has issued an apology from the American government for their involvement as well. And anyway, that is a beautiful and beautifully made film. There are, as I say, people looking for documentaries. Next week the shortlist will come out. Use that as a guide because there are going to be a lot of terrific films on that list. But I'm a big fan of those two movies.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I ask you super briefly, any crime ones? Because they're everywhere. It seems like crime ones are the bread and butter of the world of Netflix now. Which is why I like that Martha did well.

[C]

Yeah, me too. Not that come to mind. Although I will say on Amazon for mgm plus last year we did a series called Murph the Surf that was about America's original true crime superstar. He was a Figure in the early 1960s who made. He stole. He and his gang of surfers kind of criminals. Stole the biggest diamond from the Museum of Natural History in the world.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it's like that Patrick Swayze movie, right?

[Scott Galloway]

I was just thinking of the Keanu Reeves film. What was that?

[Kara Swisher]

Point Break.

[C]

There's a connection there. But it was incredible. Bob Dylan sang about this guy on Earth. The surf people were. Check it out. That's a true crime. That goes back to the roots of true crime.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, great. Anyway, RJ Cutler, this is a wonderful documentary. Martha's on Netflix and Elton John's on Disney. Thank you, rj.

[C]

Thank you, guys. What an honor to chat with you. Really enjoyed it.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks, rj.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, what do you think? He's great. I love. I think he's. War Room was a groundbreaking documentary. He's done so many that are so good. Anna Winter 1. This guy never misses.

[Scott Galloway]

I remember that. I loved the Anna Winter one. If it's one I remember. It was great at highlighting the power of her number two. Yeah, that was what I took away from that. But Frida Kahlo has one of my favorite quotes. She says, I want my death to be glorious and I don't want to come back. I love that.

[Kara Swisher]

I love that she got her wish, I guess.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I don't know if it was glorious, but. Yeah, No, I think about that. I think about that a lot. Have you planned out. Have you planned out your last. Your last, like the ninth. Ninth inning for yourself?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, totally. It's all in my. My will.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So have I. I have to add you now. I have to add you in some way.

[Scott Galloway]

I appreciate that.

[Kara Swisher]

I have. I plan. I put money in for a big party in my. Well, I'll show up on a hula. I want to put the fun I. Fun and funeral. I'm going to put the fun in funeral. And I have.

[Scott Galloway]

We don't have to worry about that. You're going to go about 40 years after me.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. But I want to have a funeral. One of the things I do have is for my. If I. I probably get cremated, but I do want a kind of a head. If I wasn't. I have a headstone in mind, which is. And it's. Punctuation is important here. Fun, exclamation point. Fun, exclamation point. Fun, exclamation point. Death, period. That's what I want on my headstone. Fun, fun, fun. Death. People will laugh in the cemetery when they see it. Like, they'll go, that lady What a funny lady though.

[Scott Galloway]

I like that. It's nice.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm so glad you're thinking of your funerals we'll go to. Hopefully one of us will go to the other's funeral. That will be the case.

[Scott Galloway]

Correct?

[Kara Swisher]

Unless we die together.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you mean in case? Both of us go are killed on our way to Vox in the same car. Chances are that's going to happen.

[Kara Swisher]

That could be. Who do you think be in top in the. In the. In the story? Me or you? Who would be?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, definitely you. You're much more iconic and you're considered an advocate for your community.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm just like Carol Swisher and this guy. No, I'm kidding. I think it'd be equal.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm just that guy with the dick jokes. What happened to him? Oh, he was hit by a bus. He was hit by a bus looking the wrong way. Moved to London.

[Kara Swisher]

No, you wouldn't. It would be the same. All right, Scott, we got to go. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Make it a good support for Pivot comes from Lingo by Abbott when it comes to healthy habits, you can spend a lifetime cycling through wellness trends, diets and workouts. But the hard part is figuring out what actually works for you and sticking to it. That's where Lingo comes in. Lingo is a bio wearable and app that tracks your glucose in real time. That means you can get personal insights and recommendations that help you learn how to eat in a way that works for you. I'm about to try out Lingo myself and I'm very interested to see what happens when I eat something in the morning and what it really means Is that oatmeal actually good for you? Or should you try eating an egg? It'll be interesting to track my unique glucose patterns, optimizing my nutrition and understanding the impact of that cookie at 11pm at night. It's water resistant. No more chasing wellness trends. When you use Lingo, your body can tell you what works for you. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years of age and older, not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. For more information, please visit hello lingo.com.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for Pivot comes from Solidym. The opportunity of AI brings a multitude of challenges associated with rapid growth and expansion. Solidym makes sure your data storage can keep up with your AI ambitions. Energy usage challenges and physical space limits are only going to increase as AI scales outdated storage infrastructure based on spinning disks, also known as hard drives, which are decades old technology simply can't keep up. Solidigm offers power efficient solid state storage spanning from the highest capacities to the highest performance. It's storage optimized for the AI era, meaning you can finally scale your AI with fewer limitations. Growing AI ambitions requires a different approach to storage. Solidigm Solid State Storage can help you bring your AI ambitions to life. Learn more at storageforai.com Support for the show comes from Intuit. If you're marketing to small businesses, then you know that reaching the right companies online can be challenging. Intuit SMB Media Labs is a first of its kind B2B SMB ad network built with first party small business audiences. Now you can connect with the businesses that need your services most. And with Intuit SMB Media Labs, you can reach millions of SMBs effectively and at scale, target by industry size, maturity, location and more across new and existing channels like Social, Programmatic and ctv. Unlock growth opportunities with tailored insights and expand your reach with audiences from Int. Intuit SMB Media Labs. Learn more@media labs.intuit.com.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay Scott, let's hear a prediction.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I despite the fact that their earnings report was not that long ago, I think Meta's next earnings report are going to actually again exceed expectations. Because because what I have come to believe is that Meta has figured out this ultimate algorithm, or we used to think that sex sells. That was the ultimate hook for advertising and building shareholder value. Inject sex into advertising. Sequester people around these three channels they watch inject a mediocre product with these great brand codes. And what we figured out since the introduction of Alphabet, quite frankly, is there something that sells better than sex and that is race. And effectively Meta creates a lot of ointment for your rage and your disappointment. Cute dog videos, wonderful, inspiring moments. But it's also at the end of the day, it monetizes it. Incense, it shepherds it cultivates it matures, it gestates and it monetizes rage. And the amount of rage and you don't really feel it until you step back and think about it in the US and Europe over the last three or four months because of the lead up to the election, I think is probably the greatest it's been since maybe Vietnam, I don't know. But the more rage there is in a society, the more coarse our discourse becomes, the more grief. Meta's probably had record days the last few days because of what's happened with the murder of this HCA individual and how many how polarizing it's been for People. So essentially one in three Americans reported spending increased time on social media during the election. Three in four members of Gen Z reports spending more time on Instagram during election season. Political ad spending was expected to top $12 billion a cycle, which is 30% greater than it was in 2020. And digital media garnered 28% of that, which is nearly triple what it got four years ago. So politics plus rage, it just adds up to peanut butter and chocolate for Meta. Meta is going to have. Have their best earnings and unfortunately it's a directly a function of. The more fucked up in the head, the more angry we are, the better.

[Kara Swisher]

This company does something they all do well at. You know, they all. And that's a great prediction. That's a really great prediction. I agree. I do think there's going to be a falling off. People are.

[Scott Galloway]

They're exhausted.

[Kara Swisher]

Exhausted. We'll see. But not. But they will benefit first compared to TV or everybody else. Anyway, for the rest of you listeners, it's time for this week's poll. Time just announced its Person of the year is. Surprise, surprise, Donald Trump. I think it's probably the right choice. Who do you think Scott should have been Person of the Year? Just curious. And we want to ask our listeners too, do you have a thought? I thought Donald Trump was the right choice.

[Scott Galloway]

My Person of the Year would be Rav Alouf Herzi Halevi, who is the general staff of the Israeli Defense Forces. In other words, he runs the idf. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, that's interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

I think Israel is basically reshaping the Middle east and doing all of the west dirty work for us. Between the precision attack against Hezbollah, between taking out Iran's air defenses, between. Between absolutely kneecapping Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and now Assad in Syria. You have, in my view, a reshaping of the Middle east at the hands of the incredible execution of the idf.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. I say it's Taylor Swift. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

Wasn't she the person of the Year last year?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. Didn't she win? I think she's getting.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, she won it.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's Donald Trump. I'm sorry. It was. I was.

[Scott Galloway]

There's only one person who's won it three times. He's won it twice now. Do you know who won it three times?

[Kara Swisher]

Who? Who?

[Scott Galloway]

Fdr. He's the only person. A bunch of people won it twice. He's the only. FDR is the only person won it twice.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I would have given it to Elon and say the real president to drive Donald Trump crazy if I was running that place just to see make.

[Scott Galloway]

Him oh, First Lady Alania.

[Kara Swisher]

First Lady Alania. Anyway, you have your choice and let us know. Visit us on threads at Pivot Podcast Official to answer, we'd love to hear your thoughts and we do want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to NYMag to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, over on Raging Moderates, Scott spoke with Tim Miller. We both think he's great from the Bulwark Podcast. Let's hear Tim's take. Handsome man. Let's hear Tim's take on how Democrats need to regroup in 2028. Let's listen.

[C]

Look, if there's any Democrat listening that.

[Scott Galloway]

Wants to run in 2027, the thing.

[C]

That they should practice the most is.

[Scott Galloway]

How to sound like a normal person and how to sound like a not.

[C]

A politician and how to talk to regular people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, there's a lot of those. They've got a lot. You've got Whitmer, Fetterman, aoc. There's a whole bunch of them that actually are pretty good at that, sort of, I think. So we'll see. Anyway, great. Great show, Scott. I listened to it after you told me about it yesterday. It was terrific. Okay, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Can you read us out?

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Interd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Jabros, Ms. Saverio and Dan Schulon. Nishat Kirwa is Fox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot New York New Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara have a great rest of the weekend.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for Pivot comes from Green Light. At some point in life, it's important to learn about responsible money management. But it's a lot harder to learn those valuable lessons later in life, especially if you're already set in your ways. If you're a parent, you want to set up your kids for success. As we enter the gifting season, now is the perfect time to give your kids a lesson in money management with Greenlight, important skills that can last well beyond the hall holidays. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made specifically with families in mind. Send money to your kids, track their spending and saving, and help them develop their financial skills with games aimed at building the confidence they need to make wiser decisions with their money. The app even includes a chores feature where you can set up recurring responsibilities for your kids, allowing them to earn a regular allowance each week. I've gotten to try Greenlight and I think it's really important to find a way to help your kids figure out money and the responsible use of it. It's a good way to teach teams about money, especially with some of the game features, and also a good way to keep track of the money. It's really important to just start conversations about responsibility around finances and this is a great way to do that. You can sign up for greenlight [e-mail] pivot that's greenlight.com pivot to try greenlight today greenlight.com pivot.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for this episode comes from AWS. AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud.