Iran Ceasefire Uncertainty, Democratic Wins, and Musk vs. Altman

Summary

Pivot Podcast - Episode Summary
April 10, 2026
Episode Title: Iran Ceasefire Uncertainty, Democratic Wins, and Musk vs. Altman
Co-Hosts: Kara Swisher & Rahm Emanuel (guest co-host, former Ambassador to Japan and Mayor of Chicago)

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Overview

In this episode of Pivot, Kara Swisher is joined by guest co-host Rahm Emanuel to dissect the state of American politics, focusing particularly on the Trump administration's Iran ceasefire maneuvers, recent Democratic wins, and growing divisions within both parties. The pair also dive into the tech world's latest drama around Elon Musk, Sam Altman, and the ethics of artificial intelligence, before rounding out with commentary on RFK Jr.’s new podcast and a hopeful note about NASA's Artemis mission. The conversation is sharp, candid, occasionally profane, and unrelentingly focused on the need for competent leadership and renewed national unity.

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Main Discussion Themes

1. Rahm's Political Ambitions and Reflections (01:48–12:01)

• Rahm Emanuel's travels and potential presidential bid:
  • Rahm recounts meeting Americans from all walks of life, focusing on practical policies like community college access and the burdens of the healthcare system.
  • As he contemplates a 2028 run, Emanuel emphasizes action over titles:

    "I'm not about getting another title... Getting crap done is what we did in Chicago." (04:16)

  • He candidly addresses concerns about his likability and reputation for being direct:

    "Your strengths, your weakness. I'm direct, I'm forthright. Nobody walks away from me and goes, boy, was he subtle." (07:06)

  • Rahm sees 2028 as an inflection point:

    "2024, you didn't have a choice. 2028 is going to be Baskin and Robbins, and I plan on being Rocky Road." (08:09)

• Presidential race dynamics:
  • On the need for generational change and a forward-focused story for the Democratic Party—one not centered on restoring the past.

  • "President Obama was an answer to George Bush... Where the puck will be in 2028 isn't about how do you imitate Donald Trump. It's actually how do you act like an adult." (09:08)

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2. Iran Ceasefire Turmoil and Trump’s Leadership Crisis (12:01–25:35)

• Ceasefire confusion & global credibility:
  • Kara and Rahm analyze the latest Iran ceasefire, lambasting the administration for its chaotic process, unclear objectives, and social media “tough talk.”
  • Kara, quoting Megyn Kelly:

    "You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization... just casually in a social media post." (13:16)

  • Rahm, on dysfunctional decision-making:

    "It's clear there isn't a situation room... There's not a serious analysis." (14:28) "If they ever do a sequel to Dumb and Dumber, there’s going to be a lot of competition for who gets to play the lead in this administration right now." (15:07)

• Military, global alliances, and diminished tools:
  • Emanuel outlines how Trump’s overreliance on military force and neglect of economic, political, and cultural tools has eroded the nation’s ability to lead:

    "He's degraded the first three [diplomatic tools], and in the second term... military power is the most, not only the most important tool, the tool he's most comfortable." (21:09)

  • The danger posed by this short-sighted approach, and the lack of a clear victory standard or exit strategy, is stressed throughout.

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3. The Path Forward: Congressional Action and National Renewal (25:35–29:53)

• Predicting congressional pushback:
  • Rahm expects Congress to finally assert itself as a co-equal branch, predicting a 50-50 Senate and a revived willingness to check the presidency post-midterms.

    "You’re going to finally have the third branch... exert its responsibility and hold this administration accountable." (27:34)

• A call for political courage:
  • Rahm sharply criticizes senators for enabling unqualified officials and failing to act on conscience, especially in military and health posts.

    "You confirmed this person that you knew in your gut was not right." (26:05) "Your vote was not where your voice is or your conscience." (29:43)

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4. Democratic Wins and Governing Strategy (33:26–43:56)

• Recent electoral gains:
  • Swisher and Emanuel break down Democratic wins in Georgia and Wisconsin, calling special attention to base mobilization and gains in swing districts.
  • Rahm stresses the importance of substance over retribution in governing:

    "There's a difference between corruption and dishonesty. I'm for absolute investigation of all the corruption... 100% for that. Don't get caught in a game of politics or retribution." (34:41)

• The need for an affirmative Democratic agenda:
  • Drawing historical lessons, Emanuel prescribes passing bills that force Republican division—not just hammering on Trump.

    "Go to those predictive markets and put a piece of legislation on the president's desk that ban all members, Congress, Senate, executive branch, judicial branch, staff, family from participating in the predictive markets." (37:39) "It says what you’re for and who you’re going to fight for." (39:45)

• 2028 & coalition building:
  • Rahm highlights the need to win in red and purple states to secure broadly impactful legislation.

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5. Democratic Infighting and California’s Governor’s Race (43:56–48:22)

• Primary concerns:
  • Kara and Rahm discuss strategic cluster in California's jungle primary and whether Trump’s endorsement could backfire for GOP candidate Steve Hilton.
  • Rahm predicts eventual consolidation among Democrats, noting the party’s unwillingness (or ineffectiveness) in knocking out also-rans.

    "I do buy the conventional wisdom that the president's endorsement of Mr. Hilton is a kiss of death." (46:45)

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6. Tech Wars: Musk vs. Altman and AI Anxiety (51:00–58:45)

• Billionaire beefs:
  • The hosts dissect the infighting among Musk, Altman, and other tech leaders at OpenAI and XAI, noting the lack of trust the public feels toward them.

    "The tech bros all basically urinating on each other's leg... Americans aren't going to stand for sitting on the sidelines..." (53:16)

• Growing regulation and public skepticism:
  • Rahm notes that both OpenAI and Anthropic are self-restricting new releases for safety; he argues this is a cry for better government oversight and a new public-private social contract.

    "They are begging for oversight and rules and they're making it up as they go." (54:01)

  • Kara sums up:

    "They look like villains now. They're villains now. They're the villains. And young people get it." (57:34)

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7. RFK Jr.’s Podcast & Failures at HHS (61:24–65:50)

• RFK as HHS Secretary and now podcaster:
  • The hosts skewer RFK Jr.’s record, particularly on vaccines and public health, predicting his podcast is more reputation rehab than public service.

    "He has been an absolute horrible Secretary of Health and Human Services on every measure outside of what's happened with opiates..." (62:24) "He could have focused on something that actually moved the needle in both dropping health care costs and improving public health. And rather than bring the car together... never lose an opportunity to divide Americans." (64:16)

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8. Predictions & A Note of Hope (67:11–70:48)

• Rahm’s predictions:
  • "Nobody will be held accountable for playing the games in the prediction market with inside information. The CFTC, the SEC, the Justice Department not only are asleep, they're in on the scam." (67:22)
  • A personal note: Rahm predicts (and hopes) his son will beat his marathon time in the upcoming Boston race.
• Kara’s closing hope:
  • Both hosts find inspiration in NASA’s Artemis II mission and the positive unity it represents.

    "We will always choose Earth. We will always choose each other." — Christina Cook, NASA Artemis II (69:12)

  • Rahm:

    "It kindles and... illuminates in you... something you can--as you said--hopeful, proud and optimistic about. And I thought her message was just beautiful." (70:48)

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Memorable Quotes

• Rahm Emanuel on agenda-setting:
  "I'm about getting stuff done, not about getting another title." (04:16)
• Kara Swisher on Trump’s rhetoric:
  "You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization... just casually in a social media post." (13:16)
• Rahm Emanuel on the state of national leadership:
  "We have a President of the United States who has asked 50+ thousand servicemen and women... to achieve a mission of national security importance... and he’s talking about obliterating a civilization." (15:07)
• On tech leaders:
  "The tech bros all basically urinating on each other's leg... Americans aren't going to stand for sit on the sidelines, literally." (53:16) "They look like villains now. They're villains now. They're the villains. And young people get it." — Kara (57:34)
• On hope and unity:
  "We will always choose Earth. We will always choose each other." — Christina Cook, NASA (69:12)

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Key Timelines

• 01:48–12:01 — Rahm Emanuel discusses national tour, presidential ambitions, and what Democrats need.
• 12:01–25:35 — Iran ceasefire chaos; Trump, Vance, and global credibility.
• 25:35–29:53 — Congressional accountability and political courage.
• 33:26–43:56 — Democratic electoral wins, governing strategy, and prediction markets scandal.
• 43:56–48:22 — The California governor primary and Democratic Party leadership issues.
• 51:00–58:45 — Musk, Altman, tech drama, and AI-regulation challenges.
• 61:24–65:50 — RFK Jr.’s podcast and his record at HHS.
• 67:11–70:48 — Rahm’s predictions and the inspirational finale featuring NASA Artemis II.

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This episode blends incisive political critique, behind-the-scenes insight, and some much-needed moments of optimism, powered by Swisher’s sharp commentary and Emanuel’s unapologetic candor. Essential listening for those following current events in politics, policy, and technology.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

The price tends to rocket up very quickly at the pump when crude oil prices go up, but gasoline prices tend to take a little bit longer to go down in many cases this week

[A]

on Explain It To Me why gas and everything else is so expensive these days. Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts. If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat same I'm Stephanie Wu, editor in chief of Eater. We've just launched the newish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City and save your favorite spots Share List Follow editors and book right in the app. Download the eater [e-mail] it's free for iOS users.

[B]

I would like to say you have dropped the F bomb three times now. I'm at zero. Just for the record.

[A]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off still. I don't know where Scott is. He's just off rambling around. Actually, I'm gonna see him tonight at the premiere of my new series for cnn. But I brought on another incredible co host. He's been ambassador to Japan and the mayor of Chicago. It seems like he's running for president. It's Rahm Emanuel. Hey Rahm, how you doing?

[B]

I'm good. How are you?

[A]

Good, good. You have been everywhere. What's happening? Try to tell us what's happening. Besides lecturing the Democratic Party, which we'll get to in a minute. But what are you doing?

[B]

Well, first of all, I'm listening to American People. I've been out and talk about things like how to make sure they get ahead, their families get ahead on the community college plan, but also, you know, like a young man I met in Spartanburg who's going to community college, he's got a job waiting at GE for 33 an hour with benefits, and he was unemployed. And what they're doing at that community college is exactly what I want to see us do everywhere. Something similar we did in Chicago, something similar, lacrosse. But also, you know, listening to the nurse in Iowa who's talking about that. She now spends close to 50% of her time arguing with insurance companies. So. And about how to make sure that people get the health care that they're actually her and the doctor are prescribing. So that's what I'm about doing.

[A]

You've always been a public figure, but often in the, in the national way. You've been a sort of behind this and you've been a congressperson. But how do you. How is it different what you're doing here in terms of running for president or trying or thinking about running for president?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. Look, I mean, I've been a congressman, I've been a mayor of both. Not insignificant.

[A]

Front facing. Yeah, front facing.

[B]

Yeah. Also chairman of leadership in Congress. But that said, I mean, you're evaluating. And one of the things I know about running for office is you got to make sure your head, your heart and your gut are all aligned. I'm going to just say it up front. I don't need a title. I got more titles. I can auction them off.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

I'm also. I'm about getting stuff done. Like take something I'm very proud about. You know, this from our many conversations. We raised our graduation rate from 56 to 83%. 98% of our kids had a plan post high school. College. Community college, branch of the armed forces, vacation school. I'm not. I'm about getting stuff done, not about getting another title. And do I think I actually understand what it takes to move this country and move help the American people get ahead of and their kids get ahead. And do I have the fortitude to do that? And so that's what I'm looking at. I'm not. I don't need, as I said, titles is for other people. Getting crap done is what we did in Chicago. 20,000 kids went to community college for free. Every child had a plan post high school on education. We started pre K in kindergarten. So I'm into moving stuff. And as I like we like to say in Chicago, taking the garbage out, getting stuff done. You evaluate that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you know, this also takes, I jokingly said when I was recruiting candidates for Congress, takes a Little level of a little kind of irrational act because you're jumping over without any. Nothing below and nothing above.

[A]

So if you're like Rahm Emanuel evaluating you as a competitor, what would be your biggest asset and your biggest negative from your perspective if you were like, I'm going to get this ROM guy.

[B]

Oh, wow, this is going to get this good. This I'm getting on the couch. And we get to make sure Blue Cross covers that.

[A]

Yeah, we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So at one level, on the positive side, and here's how I stand it, is putting out ideas from like we did on elementary school and learning and reading and addressing the 50% of our kids can't read, went to Mississippi, how to reform our high school so they're less about diploma, more about college, career planning and community college and vocational ed to social media band. Basically a wealth of ideas. I am tired of having a debate about how to restore past and about how to build a future. And that is what I'm like. So on that point, get an A. On the kind of strength and energy that is determined not only for the job, bringing there an A game as well, I'd agree. And I also think, more importantly, telling people the truth, I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear. I'm going to tell you what I think you need to know. And we're in this together rather than trying to fight each other all the time. And that's a rare moment for a middle child to say that. On the other side is you have a campaign which is slightly about. It's not slightly. There's a big debate about generational change. And I've been around. Now, the good news of that is I think I know the family room. I know what I call the classroom, the break room, the boardroom, the situation room. And I want the Democratic Party to get out of the bathroom. I'm tired of being there.

[A]

Sure. Right. I'm just curious. Do you ever worry about, like you and I are both, I would say, difficult people in a good way, necessarily. And I'm saying that about myself, too.

[B]

Let's just, let's do it smoother. We're acquired taste, right?

[A]

That's what I mean. We're acquired taste. Do you? I mean, because, you know, there's, there's a, there's a likability kind of thing. And I, I like you. But do you think about that or has that changed?

[B]

No, you know, no, because first of all, I know how I am out with. I'm out about people Where I was in La Crosse, Wisconsin, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in Franklin, New Hampshire, or in the. What is referred to in South Carolina as the Corridor of Shame and Abbeville, et cetera, all the black counties that were ignored by Columbia, South Carolina. So I know that. On the other hand, I am. I am. I mean, again, this gets back to, this is true for you, it's true for me, it's true for everyone, which is your strengths, your weakness. I'm direct, I'm forthright. Nobody walks away from me. And go, boy, was he subtle. We didn't really know what he said.

[A]

Charmer. He's a real charmer.

[B]

Yeah, that guy. That one level that works, at another level, it doesn't. And that. But here's the thing. I'm at a point in my life, this would be the last race. I'm going to tell you what I think has to happen. As I said, In 2024, you didn't have a choice. 2028 is going to be Baskin and Robbins. And I plan on being Rocky road.

[A]

Right. Rocky road.

[B]

I'm going to say this is in this moment of where I'm with my therapist, Ms. Dr. Swisher.

[A]

Yeah, right. That's me.

[B]

I am liberated in a different place than I've been as President Obama's chief of staff or as mayor or ambassador or whatever. I'm going to. This is it final race. I'm going to leave it on the field in the sense of we as a country literally have Hunger Games. This is about the future. We've had two presidents who've argued about restoring a past that's not coming back. And either we're going to build that future or we're going to talk about America in past tense. And I don't want to do that. And I'm not going to sit here on the sidelines commenting about it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you've run out of fucks, but you never had fucks, Rom. So that's kind of an interesting situation. This is really interesting. I really am fascinated. You know, a lot of people ask me, Andrew, I'm like, I don't know, maybe it's appealing to people. Right? You don't have to be slick. You don't have to be likable. You know, and obviously Trump has turned from. He had a charisma to something else.

[B]

That's really, you know, the one thing I know about presidential politics. President Obama was an answer to George Bush. George Bush was an answer to Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton was an answer to the Reagan, Bush Years, not where is Donald Trump? You're interested in clicks. I'm not that. I'm interested in kids knowing calculus. You're interested in social media posts, great. I'm interested in making sure we know our social studies. So that's not it. And I think where the puck will be in 2028 isn't about how do you imitate Donald Trump. It's actually how do you act like an adult. And I think if we're all honest with ourselves, I do look President Biden and build back better. Donald Trump's MAGA is about restoring something that is not coming back. The sooner we get to figuring out a future and then how to work together to get that done will actually matter. And the reason all the things I happen to think education is the ticket to the middle class and the families making it and your kids making it. The reason I've been so focused on it is you're not getting there with 50% of our kids not able to read at grade level. You're not getting there when we don't have a plan how to make sure that we have the electricians, the carpenters, the sailors, the nurses or the chemical engineers. Not just people who know how to do fast trading on the stock market, but the engineers that know how to actually build something for the future. That to me is more important. And if it's not rejected, my ego is not hurt. I'll have done what I think, I think is important to shape the debate and get us focused on the future in a way that I think the last 20 years we've been refocused on the past.

[A]

It certainly can't be anti Donald Trump or it can be a little bit, as you said. I remember you said let's make, make the 2026 anti Donald Trump and then we leave them behind in the dustbin like if they win, if the Democrats.

[B]

Yeah, I mean 2026 as we just coming in in the shadows of Wisconsin. It is a rubber, it is a referendum on Donald Trump and a rubber stamp Republicans. 2028 is a choice election. And unless we have a compelling story to tell about the future and what we're going to do, we won't win that. We have to have a compelling story. And that is my focus, not only for the campaign, but more importantly for the country. And that also, I can tell you from being all over the country, we have to make common cause with the largest party in America, which is independent, non aligned. Stop talking to ourselves and start talking to the people that will determine. Because in the last three presidential elections, seven states, 700,000 voters have determined who's President of the United States. And if we don't find common cause with, quote, unquote, independent voters, we will continue to be a minority party. And that has been my political take.

[A]

You know, that was exactly what Thom Tillis just told me in an interview I did with him last week. Same thing. So let's get to the news then. Let's talk about what's happening right now and we'll talk a little bit more about the future after that. But as of this recording, the Iran. This is an important thing for the future. The Iran war ceasefire is looking a little shaky. There's confusion around the status of the Strait of Hormuz and the disagreement over whether the truce includes Lebanon. Trump announced a two week ceasefire on Tuesday night. Two weeks is always his magic number. He backed down from his threat of the whole civilization would die if the deal wasn't reached. Jimmy Kimmel called it the Taco Tuesday of all. Taco Tuesday. And then of course, you know, it's, you know, walk Back Wednesday, essentially. Megyn Kelly, I'm gonna play her. I don't usually do it. Cause she gives me a headache. Wasn't too happy either. But listen to this, listen to this. Let's play it now. As you can imagine, that post did not go over well with the Iranians or with many Americans. I mean, I don't know about you, but I am sick of this shit. I'm just. I'm sick of it. Can he just behave like a normal human? I mean, honestly, like the President? 3D chess. Shut up. Fucking shut up about that shit. You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization. We're talking about civilians just casually in a social media post. I don't often agree with Megan, but there you go. I think she's sort of articulating what's happening on the road.

[B]

Donald Trump's bringing people together rather than dividing them. You like Megyn Kelly. Think of the upside of this. A new level of humanity in you that's been found towards people you disagree with.

[A]

It's not humanity. It's like, are you. I fucking agree with her. And I find common cause with Marjorie Taylor Greene. Right. Until I start talking about some other topics. But Pope Leo is also weighing in, calling, calling the threat against Iranian people truly unacceptable. He's in a. For some reason, Trump's gotten in a beef with the Pope, which is terrible in terms of what happens Next. Vice President J.D. vance is traveling to Pakistan for peace Talks this weekend along with Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. Dumb and dumber. Trump says that all US Military personnel and assets will stay near Iran until real agreement is reached. Talk a little bit about this. You've been in these rooms. Like, what is it seems like he's not playing chess. He's eating the pieces. Like, or something. Or maybe he's not getting good advice or else he's cognitively has some problems.

[B]

I don't want to, I don't want to just say about the room, but it's clear there isn't a situation room. They've moved it into the Oval Office. And whoever walks in, there's a couple of doors. There's four doors. There's, there's one outside. There's one to the, you know, where the assistants sit. There's one to the, goes to the Roosevelt Room. And there's one that also goes to the first president's library. They've moved it all in there. There's not a serious analysis. Think about this. You have secretary of Vance, rather Vice President Vance is going there. You have Wyckoff and Jared Kushner with no diplomatic support. Go back when they're meeting in Geneva. There was no experts around the nuclear capacity or everything. Wyckoff and Kushner were winging it. And it clearly showed because the UK intel officer who was there said Iran was actually offering us something very serious in the sense of concessions to avoid the military confrontation. And neither Kushner or Wyckoff understood. Understood it. Now, I said this jokingly, but I'm very serious. If they ever do a sequel to Dumb and Dumber, there's going to be a lot of competition for who gets to play the lead in this administration right now. The other piece is, and you led on this, and we're talking about what Megyn Kelly said. I'm look, there's a lot of different roles to the president. There is the moral voice of the presidency when the challenger goes down, you know, bringing the country jet or 9 11, like President Bush. There is the commander in chief, which is the most solemn position of the President of the United States. The president, the commander in chief. Roosevelt understood it when he said America would be the arsenal of democracy. Lincoln understood it at the beginning of the war. He understood it midway when he did the Emancipation Proclamation changing the definition of the war. We have a president of the United States who has asked 50 plus thousand servicemen and women, not counting all the other pieces that are supporting those 50,000 on the front line to achieve a mission of national security importance for the United States. And he's talking about obliterating a civilization. You owe the troops a definition of why you owe the servicemen and the country. You owe the servicemen. Here's what victory will look like. So we've accomplished our goals, and here's how it's going to end. And this is how we know we have succeeded in one and two. None of that by the commander in chief has been accomplished. And so when you say to me,

[A]

they have been declaring victory over and over.

[B]

And Carolyn, but this is what I say. But step back underneath what you just said, you know, and everybody else in the world knows, except for people of 1600 Pennsylvania, nobody believes our President. Now, this has been overused as an anecdote. When Stevenson goes to see de Gaulle during the Cuban Missile crisis, he's about to take photos out. De Gaulle says, I have the word of the President of the United States. I don't need those photos. Nobody would do that here. Everybody is looking at our Keystone cops at 1600 Pennsylvania. They know a President of the United States who literally, truth is the most flexible thing he's ever seen. He doesn't believe in truth. He believes in spin. And so this is the degradation of the word, the credibility and the mantle of the President of the United States and more importantly, the United States of America, because this is a baton that gets handed off. So at every level, not only did they start not knowing that they actually had accomplished something, they were too foolish and stupid and arrogant to know that, B, they go into a war without clear objectives, and then they literally talk about a victory here. Now, I have. I've thought about the. You know, there's two points I would make right now. Because they went into a war to obliterate, degradate, whatever word you want to use. The nuclear capacity of Iran, they already had.

[A]

Even Tillis was like, we obliterated it. Then we obliterated again, and then now we're going to obliterate it. He was even making fun of the

[B]

Iran discovered they have a nuclear operation called the Strait of Hormuz. So first and foremost, declare a policy. Either all ships get out or no ships get out. That would cut off Iran's economic lifeline to China. It would put pressure on both of them. Two medium term, the United Nations International Maritime Group would run the Strait of Hormuz in the sense of a fee that would be split between Iran, Bahrain, uae, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, all the countries affected. So they don't collect it. The United nations, an international association, does. And it's split because the war affected both parties, not one party third and doesn't allow Iran to control the straight armours which is an international body of water body long term. Take the Abraham Accords for the United States as a party to and do three things and use it which doubles down on America as a permanent power in that part of the world, which is Iran's goal, which is to get us out to build pipelines for Bahrain, Kuwait, Iraq, UAE and other countries in that region out to the Strait of Hormuz, to the Red Sea or to Oman Gulf, the Gulf of Oman. That would have a short term, medium term, long term plan and would also reinforce that the Abraham Accords the United States has is the vehicle for our Gulf allies and countries that don't become now subjugated to Iran's blackmail and coercion. To me that is the most important. Now, I don't think, in fact I can tell you this since I haven't seen a single idea where except for the President says, well, Iran's 10 points are pretty good. I can't believe a President United States, a commander in chief, a leader of the free world, a person with a military instruments that he has just said the other party, their term sheet is the term sheet we're going to work off of everybody in the quote unquote art of the deal. You don't use the other side's term sheets.

[A]

No, you do not.

[B]

So at every level I find this incredibly dangerous, reckless.

[A]

Right. What's occurring here because his own people are like, he doesn't know. Like what was really interesting about the New York Times piece is like they're all running for the hills because they're all telling them wasn't me, wasn't me, it was him. They're pointing fingers at him directly or at Bibi Netanyahu, but they're certainly trying to say, I thought it was farcical. That's obviously from the head of the CIA. I thought it was wrong. Susie Wiles, et cetera, et cetera.

[B]

Yeah, no, they're going to let, they're going to let one guy where the guy with the dunce cap gets to keep the dunce cap. At the end of this process, here's what I would say to you is there are four tools in your national security toolbox. Military power, economic statecraft, political persuasion and cultural attraction. And you will assemble them differently in different parts of the world, in different areas, et cetera. Somewhere in the second term now, the President degraded the first three, but in the second term as opposed to the first term, he's decided military power is the most, not only the most important tool, the tool he's most comfortable, which was not true in the first term. He is degraded through tariffs. He's degraded through belittling our NATO allies and not consulting them and the brand of America from a cultural standpoint. So all three of the four tools have been totally drained of any capacity. And a person who was risk averse in the first term is now reduced America's national security to a single tool and made it the toolbox. And what is dangerous about that is obviously the servicemen and women are becoming literally a play toy for the commander in chief with no respect for what he's asking of them, who have volunteered to serve the national interests of the country. And more importantly, the other tools are atrophying at this very time. And we economically, politically, cultures, you can see the way he's banging out in NATO are more isolated than leading. You can't be a leader if nobody is following. That was the casualty here. Our NATO allies, our Gulf allies and our Asian allies are not following the United States. They're distancing themselves.

[A]

No, they're not. So what happens then in that case? What happens next? Because his own people are distancing themselves also. Speaking of leaders, those, all those leaks were fascinating.

[B]

Well, watch what he does now. He's going to blame somebody. He's now going to. The next thing is who he tries to blame. And that's kind of a palace coup type palace, you know, intrigue game I'm into. Not that. And I understand the lore of that. My thing is, what do we do to take a generational approach to restore the trust, credibility and the capacity of this country?

[A]

How can we, with him in the seat? He's in the seat.

[B]

And this is my argument, both to Democrats, but also Republicans as a country. We're Americans. There's no reset button at the Resolute desk. I try to lay out a different scenario by different parts of the world. How do you assemble these different tools into different kind of stacking orders of priority? There's no reset. So when Prime Minister Carney in Canada said, this is a rupture, you're not getting superglue and reassembling. We have to earn not only the trust, we have to build our strengths that have been atrophying. Where's the political power? Where's the cultural persuasion? How do we recreate the economic statecraft where again, the American economy is central to the world, not sidelined? And I do think the last 25 years. When you look at this war, you look at Covid, you look at different things that have happened in the last 25 years. This will be the era of supply chain and will be known as the era of supply chain. You took oil. Take ammonia, take the petrochemicals of the region. You take what happened during COVID medical gear, et cetera, and the pharmaceutical products to deal with the vaccines. This is the era of supply chains, little things that hold the entire. Whether it's the Strait of Hormuz or whether it's the products coming out of the Strait of Hormuz or whether it's medical supplies and vaccines, little things take the entire global economy to a halt.

[A]

And they'll move a drone, a $50,000.

[B]

I mean, I said this the other day, and I'll just repeat this. You have two countries with no navy, but they control both waterways, Ukraine and Iran, without a navy. We have a theory in America's national security being able to fight two wars simultaneously. We're going to have to rewrite it to be able to fight two different wars simultaneously, one conventional and one unconventional.

[A]

That's it. He's still president for a long time, even. You know, you've got maybe to the midterms where he loses a lot of power, or three more years. What happened? What from your. If you had to guess what happens next, because they're not. These people look like they're not gonna keep. You have Megyn Kelly saying, fuck you. You have people in the cabinet clearly leaking, saying, not us. Something's got to give. Or does it? I mean, someone did stop Nixon, right? Someone walked up to Pennsylvania.

[B]

I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't want to. Look, I didn't listen to the podcast with Senator Tillis, but, you know, I, I. This is a criticism. You were the, you were the key vote for Hegseth becoming Secretary of Defense. I'm sorry. Like, you know, okay, you don't have to. But fact is, you have a person with a drinking problem and other types of problems who's now the head of a military, who's involved right now in a military political purge of the military. The greatest turnaround in American history was the armed forces post Vietnam. I've worked with the head of the 7th Fleet, head of Indo PACOM. These are incredible men and women, Amy and I. I just want to side note, we do a ROTC scholarship named after Lisa Franchetti, the former CNO of the Navy. She's an incredible capacity. Fired out of political retribution. This is stuff you read in China, right? And Senator Tillis who obviously has found his conscience and that's good. But you confirmed this person that you knew in your gut was not right. Now, I want to say one thing. When I was chief of staff, I was an employee. When I was senior advisor to President Clinton, I was an employee. How many times I walked into the Oval Office daily and said no. And here's the consequence of you. You're a U.S. senator, you're independently elected. You're independently elected Congressman. You have your own voting card. You have your own PIN for security. What are you doing?

[A]

Do you imagine they'll do it or are they just waiting for the end?

[B]

I think what's going to happen is the United States Congress is going to flip the Senate's 5050 and you're going to finally have the third branch of government that has been basically in deep freeze for the last two years. I said this once privately, but that's

[A]

a couple months ago, right? That's.

[B]

Yes, I said this privately to a Republican senator. I said, you're going to want a Democratic president. He goes, oh no, no. I said yeah. The reason is you put your manhood in a lockbox and you're finally going to take it out in about three years from now. That's what's going to happen. You I can't believe these individuals who know better and say privately under cloaked voice of course. And what will happen is elections have as to quote my good friend and my former boss, President Obama, elections have consequences. Yes. We got X months till November. Republicans is in here the hear the sound of the footbeat coming. You saw that in Wisconsin. You're going to see it in Indiana. Saw it in North Carolina the other day. You saw it in Georgia. And the fact is you're going to have the third branch of government co equal branch finally exert its responsibility and hold this administration accountable.

[A]

You are so. You are so. It's just it's a matter of time. We're going to move on from this. But I would agree with you there's sudden only appearing on my podcast. So you know what I mean like suddenly they're like hey, hey girl.

[B]

I wanted so frustrating take the take a look at the center of Louisiana. You confirmed a guy for health and Human Services Kennedy. You as a doctor you know is wrong. The president turns around flips on you and and you try to do that to encourage favor or you know, bring favor to yourself and he's going to mess with your reelection. And you knew Kennedy Was not right. Senator Tillis. I'm glad he's speaking up. I'm glad he found his voice. But when your vote was needed, he decided. You decided to go somewhere. Now, maybe you're making up for lost time, but the rest of us, most importantly the men and women in uniform, have to deal with a secretary of defense who has never qualified for that job.

[A]

And so now, therefore, do it again. I mean, he certainly did the. And I hate to use the term kill shot to known, but he did. He did. And some people are like, it's too late. I'm like, but he did it, so he has to keep doing it, is what you're saying. No, I don't like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you not only have to say that, you have to work with others to finally get your vote and your voice to cut a line. Your vote was not where your voice is or your conscience.

[A]

Yeah. Reach down and grab it anyway. Okay, Rom, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Democrats keep the momentum going with another string of election wins. Support for this show comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. As you all know from listening to me, I love my Chevy bolt. It's one of my favorite things. I almost like it as much as my kids anyway. That's right. The Chevy bolt is back and better than ever now with 2.5 times faster charging with DC Public fast charging that goes from 10 to 80 in just 25 minutes. I've been riding around in the bolt for years, and again, I have to say, I love it. I don't know why I love it so much. It's just. It's a happy car. So many times you have sad cars, happy cars. I've had the cars for a couple of years. I've never had a problem with it. It's freezing cold here in D.C. right now and nothing happened to my battery. I charge it. I happen to charge at my house. It does take a little longer, but with this new Chevy bolt, it's much faster. I'm thinking of trading it in. Although I love my bolt, so it's a very difficult decision. I just think I can't say enough about the Chevy bolt and the amount of time been listening to to this show, your bolt could have charged and be ready to hit the road. Best of all, the 2027 Volt features, upgraded tech, has an 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen. All that and more in Chevy's most affordable ev. It was easy to use before. It's easier to use and easier to charge. And I know some people are worried about that. You shouldn't be. Learn [e-mail] bolt 2.5 times faster charging with 150k kilowatt plus DC fast charging 2027 bolt when compared to the 2023 bolt which is the one I think I have. Actual charge times will vary. See the owner's manual for details and limitations. Support for this show comes from MongoDB. If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, it's time to think outside the rows and columns. Because let's be honest, you didn't get detect to babysit a broken database. You got into it to actually make build something. MongoDB lets you do that. It's flexible developer first asset compliant enterprise ready and built for the AI era. Say goodbye to bottlenecks and legacy code. Start innovating with MongoDB. There's a reason it's trusted by so many of the Fortune 500 and that's because it's a platform built by developers for developers. They swear by it. Literally. They call it a great fucking database. Start building at mongodb.com/build.

[B]

For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat. I am officially running for President of the United States. It's going to be only America First. America First. Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. capitol building. But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from vox.

[A]

The idea of like a post Trump or not exactly Trump focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive.

[B]

You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the gop. So far it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump. But like for the first time you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war. I'm Estet Hernton and welcome to America. Actually.

[A]

Rahm, we're back. Democrats notched their biggest shift yet in the House special election, dramatically narrowing the gap in Georgia's 14th, Trump carried the district by 37 points in 2024. But even in the race, the margin shrank to around 12 points, a major swing. Though the Republicans took the win. Democrats also expanded their majority on Wisconsin Supreme Court very significant from 4 to 3 to 5 to 2. And that'll last for a decade, I think, for something like that or a very long time. You recently wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal titled How Democrats Can Use Their Coming Majority. You say investigations of Trump won't satisfy voters and that energy would be better spent on a positive agenda. You and I have talked about this, talk about your ideal plan. You just sort of vaguely mention it up to the midterms and assuming they have a strong showing without any nonsense from Trump or any hijinks or whatever he's trying to do. But it doesn't seem like it's gonna work. In recent days, over 70 lawmakers have said Trump's Cabinet needs to invoke the 25th Amendment. He's supposed to be in a coma apparently, for that, but we'll see. I don't see them doing that. They can hardly speak up in any way. Talk about the distraction of it. Cause one of the things is if you spend all your time investigating and certain people, by the way, should be investig investigated for corruption. Kristi Noem, Corey Lewandowski, et cetera.

[B]

As I said in that piece, I said there's a difference between corruption and dishonesty, right? I'm for absolute investigation of all the corruption. This is crony capitalism run amok. People trading on inside information. They have normalized corruption 100% for that. You cross the line when it's all about retribution, vindication and not addressing what I think is not only the affirmative agenda, but I do believe the their corruption. I've said it two years ago. That's the backdrop. So I'm 100% for. What did Kristi Noem do at DHS? I'm 100% for everything the inspector generals have reported and all the type of corruption, both inside, outside members of family

[A]

or the Trump

[B]

100% for that. Don't get caught in a game of politics or retribution. Where then the people go, eh? It's just more Washington now on the affirmative, I think on the affirmative. And this was part of that piece. If you go back to the presidentials of both President Clinton and President Obama first terms 08 and 1992, what George Mitchell does in 1990, forcing President Bush to raise taxes and break his pledge on Read My Lips and what we did enforcing Bush to veto the Children's Health Insurance Initiative in 2007 sets up 1992, Bill Clinton and sets up President Obama 2008, 2027, I look at the kind of landscape of all the issues from minimum wage to predictive markets, to health care, cost control and or a ratepayers bill of rights. I lay out a number of ideas in that piece. Now, part of this politically is determining you have the Senate or not is get a bill on the desk that one, creates divisions within the Republican Party and two, either force the president like Bush does in 1990, or signs a bill or vetoes a bill like President bush does in 2007 on the children's health Insurance program that creates divisions inside the Republican Party and advance your agenda that you're ready to take and secure the future. So I do think Democrat. Let's just fast forward. Democrats win both the House and the Senate. What they do in 2027 will be as determinative as who we nominate in 2028. My view, this is mine, is go to those predictive markets and put a piece of legislation on the president's desk that ban all members, Congress, Senate, executive branch, judicial branch, staff, family from participating in the predictive markets. And that there's a division of the

[A]

Criminal Justice Department, the couches and poly markets.

[B]

Yeah. And the reason is, and first of all, all that can be done by executive board president will not do it because his two sons are investors in it. And you drive right there because the Republicans are there, independent voters are there. The president of the United States is not there. And I would take that bill and run it right down through one end of Pennsylvania Avenue to the other and put it on his desk because everybody, and I can tell you this, from La Crosse, Wisconsin, to Franklin, New Hampshire, to Abbeville's partner, everybody in their gut knows that these prediction markets are being played and manipulated with inside information. And yes. And people, other people are putting their lives at risk while little Nepo babies in Palm beach are making money. Most importantly, Don Jr. And the rest of the family and Lutnick's kids and Wyckoff's kids, put it on his desk. Make him pick his wealth or the American people's democracy and political and economic bloodline as well.

[A]

I already know the answer to that.

[B]

And that's what I, I mean, you asked me, that's what I would do because he's going to veto it.

[A]

You were talking about things that you wish would happen, probably won't pass. You should do like, like $25 minimum wage, whatever it happens to be. It doesn't have to win. You just have to make a stance is what you're talking about. Right?

[B]

Well, in 1990, in 1990, President Bush signs the bill. It actually does help reduce the deficit, but it creates Pat Buchanan and a Republican revolt. And 20 Republican senators support that, but the other 25 do not. In 2007, when we do the children's health insurance bill, President Bush 43 vetoes it. But 60 Republicans in the House and Senate align themselves with Democrats. What brings us together? What divides the other side? And whether it's signing or vetoing, as I would say, to quote that great philosopher, when you get to a fork in the road, take it. And that's what you want to do to the Republicans.

[A]

Right. And you want to constantly be saying what you're for and that says what you're for. And even if you fail. Right.

[B]

It says what you're for, who you're going to fight for and what the other side is willing to do. And I think this president is running a crony capitalist system. It's from everywhere. It's how much you pay and how much you get. And what you want to do is drive your car right to that division point inside the Republican Party. And the Republicans know they're not in on this prediction market assessment, financial gain the way the Trump kids are. And the president and I would also taunt them. Sign an executive order.

[A]

Yeah, do something like that.

[B]

Go for it. Mr. President. You signed all these other executive orders that are meaningless. Here's one that you can do and he won't do it. And so drive right there.

[A]

What do you make of these shifts in the Democrats have done rather well all over the place. Right. Even including in Palm Beach. Speaking of Palm beach nimble babies, they now have a Democrat.

[B]

I actually think one thing that slightly didn't get the coverage. I mean, I went up to Wisconsin six weeks ago for the Supreme Court for Rebecca Cook in the third District, Southwest colonial in Wisconsin battleground state. First of all, the Supreme Court candidate does better than any of the other two from a year ago there were Democrats in Wisconsin win the important county outside of Milwaukee. That's the Republican base that counters the Milwaukee vote. We now have the county execrates. The Supreme Court nominee in the third Congressional District, the southwest corner, where lacrosse is, et cetera, that Ron Kind used to represent and is a Republican there. That Trump won the Supreme Court, not Democratic, but the progressive candidate takes 57%. Donald Trump won that with overwhelming amount. That tells you if you win that seat, you're winning the majority. So when you look at Wisconsin at the top, all the way down and all the races between, it's a unbelievable victory. And it says the same thing that you're seeing, it's the independents massive energy in the Democratic vote base and Republican Turnout depressed the 2 of the election. In North Carolina, when Donald Trump endorsed the state Senate majority leader, the most powerful Republican, and he loses the Republican primary, that was more important than Mar A Lago. I get the value of Mar a Lago.

[A]

It's kind of just President. Yeah, I get it.

[B]

But the fact that he doesn't have power over the Republican primary voters, that's you want to call Liberation Day. That's Liberation Day. So all you Republican congressmen and senators, Senator Tillis, that you were scared of your shadow for the last four year and four years ago, you don't have to be scared of your shadow. Right.

[A]

What about Texas? Obviously, that's sort of, well, let me

[B]

see now in the Senate in Texas, I think that you have a Republican primary that ends up, it doesn't matter who, who wins in one level. They're going to both be a weakened candidate for the general election. That's what I think. And you know, and I happen to one thing I would also say to my fellow Democrats, when you look at the health care for President Obama, for the ira, the climate, the climate bill under President Biden, under the health care bill, Senator Nelson from Nebraska helps us pass that. It's the 60th vote. And the senator from West Virginia helps pass the ira. If you don't win in purple to red states as a Democrat, we're not going to get the type of economic and political legislation and social legislation. We want the two most significant pieces of legislation Democrats passed In the last 20 years, they clinch the vote with a senator from a state that is not, quote, unquote, safe blue. So winning in Ohio, winning in North Carolina, winning in Texas, winning in Iowa, winning in places Democrats have not presidentially won is how you secure the type of legislation and the majority you need.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And I just met Telarico. I call him the baby Jesus. Anyway, one of the things, of course, look, Democrats are not slathering themselves in perfection right now. Trump waded into the California governor's race this week by endorsing former Fox News host Steve Hilton, who I know very well, actually mostly as a husband of someone I know very well, but I actually know Steve. My favorite Steve thing is he was lecturing me on populism and the elites when he was staying at the Bel Air Hotel. And I was like, I can't afford this fucking place, my friend. And you're telling me about elites. Anyway, he's A funny guy. Actually, there might be good news for Democrats, the Trump backing there. But Democrats have been worrying about a doomsday scenario with the state's jungle primary. And people don't know there's not primaries. It's who the top two are. If the two GOP candidates, Hilton and Sheriff Chad Bianco and exactly what he sounds like. First and second in the primary, Democrats to be locked out in the general election. It's a concern. And there's eight Democrats in the race with no clear front runner. But by consolidating G support behind Hilton, Trump may have helped reduce the chances. And I've noticed both Jane Vaughn and Ro Khan are backing the billionaire, which is unusual. Tom Steyer, which is fine. Like, all the left went crazy. But I'm like, well, he's different. He's not like, he's not Mark Zuckerberg. Let me just be clear. But that said, there's all kinds of, you know, issues there with, with what's happening there. And you've got, you know, a number of candidates that each have a little chunk. It's not like one has the biggest chunk. So I'm sitting there, I'm like, where's Nancy Pelosi hitting heads? Or where's Newsom? Or what's. What is happening there? And you, I'm sure you've spoken to them. If you're running the Democratic Party.

[B]

What's happening in the Democratic Party?

[A]

Yes. What has to happen there in order to, like, knock people out? They don't seem to be leaving any of them, it looks like.

[B]

Yeah, I don't, I, you know, California is not Chicago.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

We would find something wrong with their signatures and not come out that way.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You're, you know, you're not getting on the ballot on this one. You want another race, that's it. But, you know, I don't, you know, I have no idea. I think the leadership of the party has stood back. I. Part of me wonders whether Kamala Harris thinks again, like, maybe I made a mistake. I should have gone for that office, et cetera. Given when you look at the field, I think this is a jump ball. You gotta. I look at it from a distance, but about four candidates all kind of hovering within two points from each other. And so my guess is the leadership of the party doesn't want to put their thumb on the scale. Prefer looking like they don't have the leadership that they thought they did.

[A]

So what happens? It could be. Is that a bad thing for.

[B]

You know, I do buy the conventional wisdom that the president's endorsement of Mr. Hilton is a kiss of death. And I think that will bear out. And I. What happens eventually there's a coalescing. That trigger hasn't happened yet, but I instinctively believe it will happen. Well, how the papers endorse what. Something will happen that will trip. That will be a conversion that will convert the moment. It'll be a catalytic conversion of the moment. And then there'll be a coalescing around a singular or two candidates that catapult to the front of the class. Right now, they're kind of bunched together, possibly.

[A]

It's really interesting. Do you remember the movie Face off where they're all pointing guns at each other? That's what it feels like. Someone's got to put the gun down, you know, and then the pigeons fly.

[B]

It's a little early for that, but you'll get that.

[A]

You'll get that. You'll get. Is there any candidate you think will emerge of all those candidates?

[B]

I'm not close enough to that race to. I mean, in the back of my head, it will be a Democrat. And, you know, there's 90% of them agree on the same thing, so it won't matter. Now, I could, you know, obviously this is electoral politics, so it could be totally wrong. But so far I believe that there will be a coalescing at the very end, at least around one, if not two candidates, and the rest will really be seen as a wasted vote. The one good news is the president's endorsement is going to force the Democrats to kind of shape up real quickly.

[A]

Shape up real quickly. Yeah. Interesting. It's a real. It's a real wrinkle. I think Steve is like, are you kidding me?

[B]

My thing is, look, take Iowa and take Ohio and then take Florida and Georgia and I'll tell you why on those is Ohio the Democratic nominee for governor, which was in. Governor DeWine's public health official. She's ahead in Iowa. You have an open Senate, also an open governor. And the state auditor in Iowa is in a very strong position, been elected twice already statewide for the governor's race. And we're going to have a pretty competitive nominee, I think, for the Senate. And I think what's happening because of what the president did to the rural economy. The corn, soybean, wheat farmers, they're going out of business, and they're going out of business. The rural economy is really hurting. This war has really touched them down. Fertilizers, et cetera. You're going to see something in the Midwest, in the Prairie states, that's going to come and bite the Republicans right where they need to be bitten and kicked in. Then you go down to Georgia and Florida. In both cases in the Democratic primary are former Republican elected officials who've decided that the Republican Party under Donald Trump's not their home anymore. The Democrats are. Whether they get out of the primary or not, I'm not sure. But there is a 10 to 12% of Republicans and I've also seen this going all over the country who don't identify with Donald Trump. Not sure about the Democrats. They all, you know, they say way too left for them culturally, politically, economically. But you have a fraction of what I call traditional Republican that rather than look at this election or the future elections as transactional, we should look as transformational. They have chosen those two candidates in Florida and Georgia to see themselves in their future politically more at home with the Democratic Party than a Republican, at least for now. That tells you the beginning. Well, that is the first steps towards a realignment of coalitions. And we as a party have to look at these elections. And I'll give you one analysis. In 2020, you had what I call Joe Biden Republicans. And the real question was, are we going to govern with the idea of making that transformational or transactional? And one of the mistakes I think made in the Biden administration was rather than trying to unite the country, a lot more time was spent trying to unite the party and we lost the bigger narrative in that process. Right.

[A]

That's a very fair point. I'm going to move on to some business, Stu. Lots going on in this area of AI, of something that you've written about a lot. And you and I have talked about social media and everything else. Now in this case, Elon Musk wants to have OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and President Greg Brockman removed from the company as part of a case, claiming the company deceived him to donating $38 million. I was there when that happened, actually. Meanwhile, OpenAI sent a letter to the California and Delaware AGs alleging MASK has been working to undermine OpenAI through various attacks, including by working with Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, this is true. Jury selection begins in this high profile trial where the tech is sort of eating each other. Like it's a really interesting time. And while we're talking about AI, hopefulness among AI among young people has dropped 18% from 27% last year. You're welcome at Tech. I'm glad to help do that. Almost a third of Young adults say AI made them feel angry. And speaking of Elon, shortly after he filed his SpaceX IPO last week, speculation is growing about a merger with Tesla. I've been saying this would happen. Let's listen to a clip from last April. It looks like he's not interested in making cars anymore or he's making other things. He wants to shift Tesla and I think you're gonna merge xai X and this together in a big alliance. Yeah, yeah. I had already predicted that he would put Twitter into Grok and then they would put it into SpaceX and it made sense for a lot of things.

[B]

So there's a whole new meaning of rollup.

[A]

Yeah. And actually there's a story and Reuters are going to possibly make a cheaper ev, which he should have done four years ago. But that's another issue. That's the only answer for Tesla, given how the numbers are declining. He has to either have a great car, which he's not seemingly interested in, a really great car that sort of wins everything, or he has to merge them all together and then he can hide the losses pretty easily in this spectacular IPO that's going to happen with SpaceX, so. Which is hugely overvalued. But that's all right. People are going to buy into it. So talk a little bit about what's happening here in AI because there's a whole shift of people not trusting these people. It's sort of like a pox on all their houses. Which side do you want to pick? Altman or Musk or these people? Or David Sachs who's like pushing the President even as the numbers are declining?

[B]

I think there's three categories that I kind of take back from this week. One is the tech bros all basically urinating on each other's leg. Was telling you the other guy, it's raining outside and Americans aren't going to stand for sit on the sidelines, literally. Well, Altman and Dario and Elon Musk all play and fight with each other like little kids in the sandbox with an adult supervision. The Second is both OpenAI and anthropic withhold product because it's too risky.

[A]

Dangerous. Dangerous, right. I was going to mention that too. These are, these are new products that they have coming that they're worried about security issues. And now they brought a coalition together to try to patch things. But quite dangerous. But go ahead.

[B]

And then the third thing, which is whether forget the motivation for slide Sam Altman puts out a kind of updated AI New deal social contract to compete in my but again, I shouldn't do that because I said don't put aside the motivation with Dario own view, which is this is going to be so disruptive. We have to figure out not only the product and the industry, but also how we include the American people in this. So it's a net win rather than three guys win and 333 million lose. Those three boxes are. They're all overlapping now I step back also, as a former mayor and chief of staff to a president in massive changing times, the government is set up to kind of set up a regulation, wait 30 years to see if it worked, which is an industrial model. And you're in the post analog, post digital into something totally different. And I do think when you look at Daro and OpenAI deciding not to put a product out, forget the boys acting like boys. They are begging for oversight and rules and they're making it up as they go. The government needs industry leaders, academics, economists in real time to be making decisions in real way. We can't rely on two CEOs social conscience to say I'm withholding a product because it's dangerous. While I appreciate that they did that, that is not how this is going to work. So we're going to have to have a board that is required to update its rules and regs and oversight in real time. With an industry that's changing at a pace the government's not used to, there's going to have to be principles that guide it now. Is the threat from China real? 100%. It's real from a competitive standpoint, which I find. One side note. We're a country with a lot of social. Whether you think it should be expanded social insurance. Our country is fearful from AI. China has none of the social infrastructure underneath it. So if you fail to get support, health care, unemployment, et cetera. And yet they're hugely optimistic about AI. The countries are in different places given the support that the public sector. And I find that just as a political. As a student.

[A]

Well, they do a lot more monitoring of it. The con. The government does much more monitoring than we do.

[B]

Confidence that somebody's going to control and that you're not going to be left out on the sideline. So to me, we're going to have to have a real. And I do think this regardless of whatever my personal. The two Sam Altman's kind of social contract, Dario's view that for anthropic that we need a kind of a new agreement which is the difference between kind of capital versus labor. But How AI will benefit. What I say democratize the benefits of AI to more people from both skills, but also jobs and economic opportunity. And if you don't, the American people are going to data centers. Rebellion against that. It's just minor compared to what's going to happen. And the government's going to have to step in and do this from an executive branch standpoint.

[A]

But the tech people are still. Aside from those guys. Like David Sacks was like, how dare you do this? This is our greatest thing. And is pushing Trump even as this is happening. And he has been integral to what I think has been a disaster for the tech industry in terms of their imagery. Right. They look like villains now. They're villains now. They're the villains. And young people get it.

[B]

I mean, they're villains and they're actually also. They want to take all the benefit and you're just going to live in their world now. I'm sorry, that's not how a democratic capitalist system works. There is real opportunity. Look, given the competitiveness with China, this is going to be 1:1, like fusion, like quantum computing, etc. Like life sciences, one of the dominant technologies of the future. But it's not going to be three winners and 333 million losers. That is not how we're keeping score. And in the end of the day, like everywhere else, industry likes regulations because it sets rules, guidelines and principles.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

When you go back to what's happening, like insider training, that for the fact that businesses are not calling that out, this is going to come back to bite you right in the butt.

[A]

That's what I said. You know, it's interesting, when I saw those statistics and then David Sacks yammering on about it, I was like, you know, David, sit the fuck down. Because the American people don't like what you're doing, so. And Trump is stupid to listen.

[B]

I would like to say. What, you have dropped the F bomb three times now. I'm at zero, just for the reference.

[A]

I'm sorry. I know, I know, I know, I know. You can do it anytime. That's more your brother's thing. That's more your. Your elderly brother's thing.

[B]

You will never find me ever saying it publicly.

[A]

I know.

[B]

My whole career. Do not do that.

[A]

I know you don't. That's. I'm just telling you, that's your brother. I have a tape of him yelling

[B]

at me like that because I know even though my mother. Even though my mother is deaf, she'll hear it and come and grab me.

[A]

I have a voice, scared of her brother saying, Caris Fisher, fuck you. So I'm gonna keep it for the rest of my. I'm thinking of making it.

[B]

That was probably a term of endearment.

[A]

It was. It was. It's because he didn't invite me to some party. Anyway, I don't want to go to his parties. It doesn't matter. But happy birthday. All right, Ram, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about rfk. Getting into the podcast Game. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffers.

[B]

Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree, but we almost never disagree. And we're always learning.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. How is Trump's psychology having an impact on the great power conflict? There were folks who for years could never imagine the US Carrying out limited strikes on Iran. Right? If you go back to the 12 Day War, he dropped those bunker busters, Right? And you had presidents through multiple administrations who never would have gone to full scale war with Iran. And here they are. I'm Preet Bharara, and this week CNN's Chief National Security analyst Jim Sciuto joins me to discuss the Iran war, our fraying alliances, and the rise of Russia and China. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Ron, we're back with just one more quick story. I regret to inform you that RFK Jr. Is launching a podcast. You know it's Trouble. Now the pod will focus on telling the truth, especially when it's uncomfortable in confronting the spiritual malaise. Let's watch a clip of the announcement. I guess it's not quite as bad as his strange porn movie with Kid Rock, but let's go.

[B]

If we want a healthy nation, we have to confront the Lies that have made us spiritually, morally, and physically sick. The time for half measures is now over. We're launching a new era of radical transparency in government here at hhs. I hope you'll join us in our mission to make America healthy.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. And of course, just as there is news in the Washington Post that they're trying to suppress a CDC report that vaccines are good for you. COVID vaccine. So just transparent, Bobby.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say it gives a whole new meaning to what transparency is not.

[A]

Yeah. So is he just preparing for his next career when he gets bounced or what? What is happening? And I hope. Are you co hosting his podcast next?

[B]

Well, first of all, two things. One is he's preparing that, but it's also to airbrush his past. He has been an absolute horrible Secretary of Health and Human Services on every measure outside of what's happened with opiates, and he has nothing to do with it.

[A]

Yeah. Best friend to measles is what I call him. Best friend.

[B]

Yes. Measles. The lack of confidence in the American, the cdc, our other types of our life sciences, our capacities, our health care costs. Everything that he has touched in the great tradition of this administration is broken. It needed repair. It needed to be strengthened. And across the board. You cannot walk from a single agency or department. And he's been the kind of a point of the spear. It's the largest domestic agency in the United States, Health and Human Services, and he has made a mess of it. And the people he's appointed have made a mess of it, from CDC to NIH to Medicare, Medicaid, and they have done nothing to measurably improve the health of the American people. And I will say, having dealt with this as both chief staff, but more importantly, when I helped pass ACA or President Clinton's Children's Health Insurance, but as mayor of the city of Chicago, 8% of our workforce was driving 70% of our healthcare costs around chronic illnesses, heart, obesity, et cetera. He could have focused on something that actually moved the needle in both dropping health care costs and improving public health. And rather than bring the car together like everything in this administration, never lose an opportunity to divide Americans. They have, from the President to his cabinet, have found multiple opportunities to divide people and literally repressed examples where they could actually bring people together of different political views to work on a common issue.

[A]

And shame on doctors in the Senate who voted for him. I mean, I just. The Republican.

[B]

Well, that gets back to, you know, it's a senator. Senator Cassidy is going to Pay the price. Like Senator Tillis for having basically taken your conscience and put it in a lockbox. When the vote came and you knew what was right, you took the politically expedient case. And I don't want to draw this to myself, but since I'm on, I'll draw it to myself. I can't tell you how many times I used to walk into Clinton's office or President Obama's. Oh, well. I said, you're out of your mind if you do this. This is the Christ. I'm going to lay it out to you. You'll have a debate about it, but understand the consequences of this. I was an employee. Get out of here. You're an independent U.S. senator. I was a congressman. I was a mayor. You got elected. You have a responsibility to what the trust people gave.

[A]

I'll tell you what Tillis told me. You know what a martyr is? He's dead. Like, he was. He was like, you can't. You can't operate from a position of dead. And I still was like, I don't care. Be dead then. You know what I mean? Because you'll have inspired someone else.

[B]

He may say that politically. He may say that politically, but that vote gave a license to a guy to do a political purge of the greatest military forces. Country did the greatest turnaround. This country did. I've worked with these men and women at all levels. The amount of dedication, the amount of understanding of politics, culture, history, working diplomatically, working militarily. Hexseth doesn't hold a candle to any

[A]

of the people he fired. Same thing with rfk. So you won't be listening to his podcast, in other words. Anyway.

[B]

No.

[A]

All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[B]

It's deck days at Lowe's, and the savings are stacked right now. Pros get 1515 off all in stock composite decking from top brands like Trex, Timbertech and Deckorators. Plus get a free DeWalt 20 volt max 5amp hour battery. When you buy a select DeWalt tool, the deck's stacked in your favor with brands pros trust. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 422, while supplies last selection varies by location. All the way back in the year 2000, Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos had this. This big idea that maybe the future wasn't typing, it was talking to your computer with your voice. Jeff Bezos didn't invent this idea, but he did push his team to invent what would become Alexa and the Amazon Echo. Two things that brought voice computing into millions of homes around the world. This week on Version History, our chat show about the best and worst and most interesting products in tech history. We're telling the whole story story of the Echo and how Amazon managed to get it right and still kind of miss the future. That's version history on YouTube and wherever you get podcasts.

[A]

Okay, Rob, let's hear prediction. There's so many things. Keep it brief. We got just a little time. I want to play one thing at the end from NASA, from the Artemis. But what is your prediction?

[B]

Prediction that nobody will be held accountable for playing the games in the prediction market with inside information.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The cftc, the sec, the Justice Department not only are asleep, they're in on the scam.

[A]

Nobody for now.

[B]

Nobody for now under this administration until they're held accountable. Can I do one thing personally?

[A]

Sure. Please. Absolutely.

[B]

My son runs a 2 hour, 39 minute marathon. He did it in Boston. He's going to run the Boston Marathon again. I think he'll have a personal best. He ran a 2 hour 39, which was incredible in marathon. I think this coming Boston Marathon journey again, he's going to get a personal best.

[A]

Oh, that's very sweet.

[B]

That's both a prediction, a hope and a wish. And I'm very proud of him.

[A]

Oh, that is amazing. You should run with him.

[B]

I'm not. No. Amy runs marathons, as I always say. We're going to have to do a test because I don't know who your father is. I have no idea about this man. The kid's an incredible runner.

[A]

Okay. In that regard, I want to leave.

[B]

Very proud of him.

[A]

Thing of hope. Speaking of hope, that's wonderful. One of the things I did feel, I think a marathon really start, really watch this Artemis flight done by NASA. It was sort of a wonderful moment. All Americans, the numbers are quite high, which is wonderful. NASA and they did a great job on social media. And this crew is just so wonderful. Men hugging and crying and saying wonderful things and laughing and it just has been a real. It's a wonderful group of people up there and it sort of represents the best of America in that regard. Kind and good hearted. NASA is preparing for the return of Artemis 2 after this historic moon flyby. These pictures are delightful and amazing and astonishing and it also makes you appreciate Earth. Let's listen to a clip from crew member Christina Cook. After the spacecraft passed by the moon,

[B]

we will explore, we will build.

[A]

We will build ships, we will visit again. We will construct science outposts. We will drive rovers, we will do radio astronomy. We will found companies, we will bolster industry, we will will inspire. But ultimately, we will always choose Earth. We will always choose each other. Just what you're talking about, ram maker, the head of NASA.

[B]

I actually think it was a perfect and typical spirit to what you're seeing out of this administration. We'll choose Earth and we'll choose each other and we'll do things, period, where we did a war of choice. Yeah, it was a act and it touched. Look, I do think there's this yearning out there to actually not see our fellow Americans as the enemy or the, it could be an opponent, but from a political standpoint. But it's not your enemy. And I thought she touched that human kind of spirit. And also, most importantly for the United States, that's something we can unify around. I, I don't know about you, I get on the, you know, open my iPad. First thing I do is see the pictures they're sending.

[A]

They're beautiful.

[B]

And look at the, I looked at the Earth from that eclipse photo, which I thought was most beautiful shot. And then there was also complimentary. The Webb Telescope put out new pictures of the galaxy. And it's just, there's. It Kindles and it's. And it has that little light that illuminates in you of something that you can, as you said, hopeful, proud and optimistic about. And I thought her message was just beautiful.

[A]

It's a beautiful planet.

[B]

It's a homily like the Pope's.

[A]

We have a beautiful planet. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-Pivot elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe this week, my new CNN show, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever is premiering this Saturday, April 11th at 9pm Eastern. Scott is actually gonna interview me at the premiere in New York tonight. And also your brother Zeke is in it and he's here. Hysterical. He and I are wearing colonial garb together and we had a ball.

[B]

He worked for the city.

[A]

Oh, God, he's really good. It's the making of a star. Anyway, you're all fascinating. The Emanuels. Anyway, thank you so much for joining me today. There's never a dull moment. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Scott will be back from wherever the hell he's gone, and we're excited to have him back. But all the guest hosts, Kristin Soltis, Anderson Romm and Anthony Scaramucci have been amazing, and I really appreciate it. I'm gonna read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited the video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pop we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Rom for President.