Jimmy Kimmel Returns, Charlie Kirk’s Memorial, and Trump’s H1-B Visa Shake-Up

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary

Episode title: Jimmy Kimmel Returns, Charlie Kirk’s Memorial, and Trump’s H1-B Visa Shake-Up
Date: September 23, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway dissect the week’s biggest stories at the intersection of tech, business, and politics. The main focuses are the spectacle and political opportunism seen at far-right leader Charlie Kirk’s memorial, the fallout from Jimmy Kimmel’s suspension and quick return to late-night TV, and the Trump administration’s controversial, business-rocking H1-B visa fee hike. The hosts also touch on the latest in the TikTok sale saga and broader risks posed by synthetic AI relationships.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Charlie Kirk Memorial: Grief Co-opted as Political Theater

Segment Start: [07:39]

• The show opens with reflections on the Charlie Kirk memorial, described as a hybrid of “memorial, religious revival, and political rally.” Over 100,000 mourners attended alongside administration officials and Elon Musk.
• Kara highlights the personal dignity of Kirk’s widow, Erica, who forgave her husband’s killer in her speech but notes that almost every prominent figure at the event hijacked proceedings for their own agenda.

Notable Quotes:

• “It was equal parts memorial, religious revival and political rally hailing Kirk as a martyr and warrior.” – Kara Swisher [07:39]

• “If he wants to stop being compared to fascists, stop acting like a fascist.” – Scott Galloway, on Stephen Miller’s speech [09:37]

• “Donald Trump treated it like a political rally. …It never was about Charlie Kirk ever.” – Kara Swisher [13:43]

• “It felt more like an opportunity.” – Kara Swisher [11:37]

• Scott argues such politicized memorials indicate a deeper rot, as sacred collective spaces are further permeated by divisive politics.

• Erica Kirk’s poise is recognized, with Kara suggesting she could become a future conservative political figure.

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2. Jimmy Kimmel’s Return: Censorship, Corporate Cowardice, and Backlash

Segment Start: [15:06]

• The hosts dissect Disney’s botched decision to suspend and subsequently reinstate Jimmy Kimmel after his contentious comments in the aftermath of Kirk’s murder.
• Kara calls the initial suspension “a dumb decision … stupid,” questioning Bob Iger’s leadership and strategy.
• Scott believes the reversal was driven by money and social pressure, not values: “People are canceling their subscriptions, canceling trips to Disney...this has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel.” [17:04]

Notable Quotes:

• “This has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel…this was about money.” – Scott Galloway [17:04]

• “He should just go after Iger. He should go after Trump. Do an extended swan song with his middle finger stuck up.” – Scott Galloway [23:53]

• “This appears to have been a bit finally, the red line where both Democrats and Republicans said too much.” – Scott Galloway [24:09]

• “I think Trump will double the fuck down, so will Brandon Carr, the dickless Brandon Carr.” – Kara Swisher [24:40]

• The episode underscores that Kimmel’s case is “the red line” that provoked bipartisan backlash against censorship, more than previous Trump actions.

• Both hosts speculate that, with the late-night industry’s decline, Kimmel might plan an exit—ideally dramatic and unapologetic.

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3. Trump’s H1-B Visa “Tax”: Big Tech Winners, Startups Lose

Segment Start: [32:08]

• The Trump administration’s sudden $100,000-per-year fee for new H1-B visas sends tech companies into panic.
• Kara notes that the rollout was confusing and hasty, impacting thousands of workers at Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, Apple, and Google.
• Scott blasts the move as “brain dead short term thinking” that undercuts America’s advantage in attracting global talent.

Notable Quotes:

• “We have unprecedented access to global human capital…what are we doing here by charging $100,000?” – Scott Galloway [34:36]

• “It’s a reduction in an incredible resource … yet another transfer of capital and power to the big guys.” – Scott Galloway [36:53]

• The policy will price out startups but not big firms, exacerbating market consolidation.

• Reed Hastings’ support for the fee is acknowledged, but Scott suggests this view is myopic and benefits only the richest companies.

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4. TikTok Sale: Oligarchs Win, Young Users Lose

Segment Start: [47:15]

• New details emerge on the forced sale of TikTok’s U.S. business, likely to an “old white guy” club featuring Larry Ellison, Rupert Murdoch, Michael Dell, and Marc Andreessen.
• Kara is skeptical: “A lot of old white guys running TikTok sounds young and fresh. I just feel like this might be the beginning of the end.”

Notable Quotes:

• “Do they think that political retribution … is solely limited to Republicans? …It always [swings back].” – Scott Galloway [49:25]

• Scott argues that, by participating in this deal, these investors are risking regulatory blowback under future administrations.

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5. Twitter/X and Social Media: Hostile, Drained, and Diminished

Segment Start: [50:02]

• The hosts candidly discuss abandoning Twitter, citing its toxicity, limited positive impact, and lack of business value.
• Kara: “Twitter is a Nazi porn bar. It makes us feel badly … it’s always been a waste of time.”
• Scott emphasizes the mental health benefits of quitting: “One of the biggest mental health hacks I have registered … was getting off Twitter.” [52:35]

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6. Character AI: The Next Frontier of Societal Harm?

Segment Start: [61:17]

• The dangers of synthetic AI relationships (specifically character AI) are explored at length.
• Scott argues character AI is “weaponized affection,” especially dangerous to teens: “Character AI is intimacy without the friction. No awkward pauses, no vulnerability, no rejection. That is literally opium to a teenager.” [63:05]

Notable Quotes:

• “Synthetic relationships … risk leaving young people overstimulated yet starved for real human connection.” – Scott Galloway [64:15]

• “This shit needs to be shut down for people under the age of 18.” – Scott Galloway [65:35]

• “Real world relationships are too hard...but that’s where all the beauty comes in, Scott.” – Kara Swisher [66:54]

• Kara notes the issue extends into adult relationships and marital dynamics, referencing MIT’s Sherry Turkle.

• Both agree urgent age gating and regulation are needed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• “If he wants to stop being compared to fascists, stop acting like a fascist.” – Scott Galloway [09:37]
• “It never was about Charlie Kirk ever.” – Kara Swisher [13:43]
• “This has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel… this was about money.” – Scott Galloway [17:04]
• “I think he should… do an extended swan song with his middle finger stuck up.” – Scott Galloway [23:53]
• “Trump’s $100,000 per year tax is a great solution… which will mean no lottery needed and more certainty for these jobs.” – Reed Hastings quoted by Kara Swisher [37:31]
• “Character AI is intimacy without the friction… that is literally opium to a teenager.” – Scott Galloway [63:05]
• “Twitter is a Nazi porn bar. It makes us feel badly… hard pass.” – Kara Swisher [51:33]

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Wins & Fails

Kara’s Win: The animation and music excellence of “K-pop Demon Hunters,” a Netflix animated show made by Korean Americans/Canadians, reflecting positive global creative synthesis.
Kara’s Fail: Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s ongoing attacks on children’s medicine (claiming Tylenol causes autism), spreading harmful pseudoscience. [56:48]

Scott’s Win: The effectiveness of economic boycotts, demonstrated by mass cancellations targeting Disney in protest of Kimmel’s suspension. “This is a way to flex economic strike muscles.” [58:35]
Scott’s Fail: The delayed societal response to Big Tech’s negative effects, particularly the unchecked rise of addictive, unregulated AI relationships.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a sharp critique of political theater, corporate timidity, plutocratic self-dealing, and the blurred lines between tech innovation and societal harm. The dynamic between Kara and Scott is both critical and humorous, with an undercurrent of worry—and resolve—about the direction America’s tech and political landscapes are heading.

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For more insights, tune in to the next episode of Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from Brex. These days, every business leader is under pressure to save money. But you can't crush the competition just by cutting costs. To win, you need to spend smarter and move faster. You need Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that breaks the trade off between control and speed with smart corporate cards, high yielding banking and AI powered expense management. Join the 30,000 companies that spend smarter and move faster with Brex. Learn [e-mail].

[Scott Galloway]

Not all journalism is the same. Take the Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say, so we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to the Guardian for [e-mail] when did you peak? I peaked at like 34. Have you determined when your peak is?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no, I'm peaking. My. I'm continuing to peak.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Somehow I knew you were going to say that.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

How you doing, Scott?

[Scott Galloway]

I'm feeling okay. I slept a lot yesterday. I had a nice weekend. I get a little bit lonely when I'm traveling for a while, so I'm a little bit lonely. But yeah, I'm fine without the dogs, without the kids, you know?

[Kara Swisher]

When do you go back?

[Scott Galloway]

I go. Well, I'm in New York now. I go to Aspen for this event. I'm not even sure you're supposed to talk about it. It's one of these events where we redraw the maps of the world in rooms and. Oh, right, one of those secret ones, climate change. And, you know, people pretend to care about the world as they wash out founders of AI to get their 7/7 billion. But I'm very excited.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you getting invited to those things? I never get in those rooms.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I am. All of a sudden. I was never involved.

[Kara Swisher]

There's a Bezos one, there's an Ari Emanuel one, there's one from. All those people have their own.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm going to one of those.

[Kara Swisher]

One of them. I figured, yeah. Karen never. You know, the Ari Emanuel is like, you should come to this. I'm like, you never invite me. And he's like, you should come to this. Such. It's really. You just take notes for me. Okay? Just tell me about it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, it's. I usually don't go anywhere. I'm not being paid a lot of money or that doesn't involve alcohol and people much younger than me.

[Kara Swisher]

There's a lot of alcohol there. Trust me, there'll be a lot of alcohol. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't want to get. I don't want to get fucked up with these guys.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, but you find things. Be a spy. Be like a spy. Be like Mata Hari.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. It's such that I'm never invited back again to enter into this club. I've been uninvited or disinvited from some very important conferences. The JP Morgan Alternative Investment Summit in Miami, which is like. It literally is a Super Bowl. Half the world's GDP is there. And I was invited two years in a row. And the last year I was there, they always invited me to get predictions. And then I sit down and interview somebody. And I sat down and interviewed this young woman who's an influencer. And just as we were about to end, I said, but be careful. The person I interviewed last year was Adam Neumann. And supposedly that really upset the people at JP Morgan because I guess they were one of the investment banks planning to take him public or something.

[Kara Swisher]

They were in a cuddle puddle with him.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Anyways, didn't get invited back then. I haven't been invited back since.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know if I was disinvited, but I got to go to Davos when I was in my early 30s, three years in a row. And then I haven't been invited back since, so.

[Kara Swisher]

So, yeah, I never got invited to Davos. Just see.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I've like sent all kinds of hints and messages, like, I'd love to come back. Da, da, da. It was so great. No invite, no invite.

[Kara Swisher]

I like not getting invited.

[Scott Galloway]

When did you peak? I peaked at like 34. Have you determined when your peak is?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no, I'M peaking, my friend. I'm continuing to peak.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Somehow I knew you were gonna say that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I feel like I'm peaking even more. So. Yeah, yeah, I do. I feel like it doesn't matter. One thing I learned along the journey was I don't care if I don't get invited. It doesn't make it better or worse. You don't get better interviews. You don't. Sometimes you don't get people, that's for sure. I think about this a lot, this sort of accessy kind of thing. I don't think I've suffered for not getting certain interviews anymore. I think I've done. And the other day I thought, I'm done with that person. I don't want to talk to them again. I was like, I don't care if I talk to them, if I do, if I don't. So I don't know. I have more of a. Whatever, I'll do my best job.

[Scott Galloway]

I actually find, I find these events are usually really well done. And also I think it's really important that people like that get together and meet other people and expand the horizon. I think those events actually play a really, a really important role. So, you know, when I peaked, I peaked when I was nine. When I was nine, I was an all San Fernando Valley pitcher. I was getting, I was, I was getting every day. Me and Debbie Brubaker were sent from the fourth grade to the sixth grade to do math and English.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow, genius.

[Scott Galloway]

I was the fastest kid in the fourth grade at Emilita High School. And I was getting like straight A's. And then my parents got divorced, we moved homes and I began a slow descent that's lasted about 50 years. Also, I was featured in the San Fernando Valley newspaper.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I just say, I think that's how people look at you and say, he's peaked at 9.

[Scott Galloway]

That's. No, that's what the people came up.

[Kara Swisher]

To me said, that's not true. You are yet to peak. You have yet to peak. I have to tell you. And I don't say that just because I'm an arrogant person. It's because I really believe it. I like, I feel like I have lots and also I feel a little bit like I'm going to do something. I don't feel like I'm at risk in a way. I don't know. I just feel like I'll do the next thing. I'll do the next thing. I feel good about that. Including doing stuff with you. I like doing stuff. Everything I do I love doing. That's all I have to say. And let me just say Scott did me a favor. I'm interviewing the parents of the chat GPT story about the kid who committed suicide. And Scott did amazing. Someone. I was gonna do it, couldn't do it at the last minute. And I got Scott, too, and he did a great. I really appreciate it. It was incredibly thoughtful. Question.

[Scott Galloway]

It's my pleasure. But the key there in the story of my life was the person I wanted couldn't make it. So we invited Scott.

[Kara Swisher]

No. He was a person who made sense for that particular thing. But I didn't want to bother you is what I really wasn't. That I would invite you for every question.

[Scott Galloway]

Me sitting alone, eating Chipotle often. Soho. Yeah. I'm so busy.

[Kara Swisher]

Chipotle. You have so much good food around there. You like Chipotle?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Chipotle gives you comfort.

[Scott Galloway]

If it's not Jack's wife, Frida, or Chipotle, I'm not interested.

[Kara Swisher]

I noticed that you also like the place that has the tune of tunicados.

[Scott Galloway]

Tuna cotto. Oh, Joe and the Juice.

[Kara Swisher]

Joe and the Juice.

[Scott Galloway]

God, can I be more like. I don't know what the term is.

[Kara Swisher]

I do know a lot about you. It's interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

You do? We're very close.

[Kara Swisher]

I do. Anyway, it was very thoughtful what you did. I really appreciate it. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including Jimmy Kimmel's R turn. He's back. H1B visa chaos. And more details about a potential TikTok deal. We, of course, are dubious about it. But first, let's talk about the Charlie Kirk memorial service. Five hours, more than 100,000 mourners and top administration officials and Elon Musk. It was equal parts memorial, religious revival and political rally hailing Kirk as a martyr and a warrior. Let's listen to two standout moments. First from Charlie Kirk's widow, who emphasized that her husband wanted to help young men. She, I thought was excellent. I have to say, on the cross our Savior said, father, forgive them, for they not know what they do. That man, that young man, I forgive him. And then this one from Donald Trump.

[Scott Galloway]

He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them.

[Kara Swisher]

That's where I disagreed with Charlie.

[Scott Galloway]

I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

I am sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Erica.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you listen to Stephen Miller's speech?

[Kara Swisher]

Crazy.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, I thought he was going to start singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me. It was so. It was so Reminiscent of speeches in 30s Germany. And just to be clear, for those of you who will accuse me of comparing Stephen Miller to a fascist. Yeah, I am.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, me too.

[Scott Galloway]

And if he wants to stop being compared to fascists, stop acting like a fascist.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that was. Even. I thought Trump's speech was terrible, but that was really disturbing.

[Scott Galloway]

It was just so over the top. Just.

[Kara Swisher]

It was. Right. I was thinking, don't speak at my funeral.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. And there's this theme of them and you have awakened a war. And they. It's like, who is they? Exactly you.

[Kara Swisher]

He's talking about you.

[Scott Galloway]

Is it me? Is it white males from Mormon families who are gun owners? Like who. Who is they? Is it people who have relationships or, or supposedly have relationships with trans people? Like who? You know, that's the thing about extremism is you, you, you try to find an enemy such that you feel better about yourself. But it's so. And the thing about. I just find this also disappointing. What she said was very moving and you can sort of feel her grief. And you would think that. And some political leaders have tried to do this, but what if one side is successful? 98% of the capital effort right now is going towards trying to cherry pick evidence. The left is guilty of this, but much less than the right is guilty of this. Trying to cherry pick evidence that will convince a bunch of people that it was the others fault. And the question is, assume you win and you convince people that it was either the radical right or the radical left's fault. All that does is get more violence. That's not going to do anything. And none of these people, again, want to talk about the real culprits here. So I actually thought the service. I think it's nice when a bunch of people get together to mourn something and have sort of a collective healing. I think that's a good thing. It's not, you know, I don't. The people on stage and their tone was not one of forgiveness and honoring his life. It felt more like a.

[Kara Swisher]

No, it was an opportunity.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I wrote a post on Friday in my newsletter called Violence Entrepreneurship. And they see an opportunity to leverage violence to try and advance their own political gains. As opposed to saying, anyway, yeah, no.

[Kara Swisher]

Remember you said violence entrepreneurship and then Spencer Cox said the same thing. Conflict, entrepreneurship, it creates that kind. I think you are more to the point. Violence is actually the point. If you listen to Stephen Miller, the reason, look, it was a spectacle. It was meant to be a spectacle. It was meant to be a political opportunity for a Lot of people. And you know, that evidence that, for example, Turning Point USA volunteers staffed voter registration booths at the stadium event. They were selling merch. It was a culture event. It was a political event and everything else. And look, the fact that Erica Kirk stands out is one. The difficulty level of doing that is high. Right. Because this is a violent death of her husband, with whom she had two children. And I thought she managed to do the best she can given the spectacle of the whole thing, which was a lot. Right. And it's fine if you want to do that. The martyr stuff is okay, whatever. The overt, the excessive Christianity was something, but they are very Christian, and I'm glad they did it in Arizona, which is where he's from. And again, if people want to mourn and they. They did it. But Donald Trump treated it like a political rally. He wandered around talking. Not just that he hates people and his opponents, and that's also insulting to Charlie. It never was about Charlie Kirk ever. Like, on the thing, he wasn't talking about Charlie Kirk. He was talking about everything else. But he talked about Biden. He talked about, like, how stupid Biden is, tariffs. He started going on about Tylenol, a bunch of things. And I was like, absolutely. It's like when someone said, how are you feeling about someone who is supposedly close to your family? He started talking about, this is what got Jimmy Kimmel into trouble. He started talking about, talking about the building of the ballroom. Like, it was weird. And so I think very few people there did not take an opportunity to use Charlie Kirk's death as something to their own agenda or advantage. Elon Musk, center one, of course, published a picture of him and Trump together and said, for Charlie. And all I could think of, for Elon, not for Charlie, it was never for Charlie. And, you know, they'll say, Charlie wanted us to be together, this and that, but this, this poor murdered man is being used as a vehicle for all these people. It's really quite astonishing. And they'll continue to do so going forward.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I've never seen. I was trying to think. I've never seen a service like that. I was trying to think when other famous political figures were murdered. And I don't. I mean, typically, it just feels as if our politics have permeated the most sacred spaces. And it's, It's. It's just very weird. It's just. It's just. It's strange.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, if you're going to put it in a stadium, it's certainly not a service for the person who died? That's the thing. Although I'm planning on having an entire stadium when you go, I'm going to do it. I'm going to have celebrities in, stuff like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And then I'm trying to raise money for myself.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread across the bar at Zero bond.

[Kara Swisher]

Done.

[Scott Galloway]

And I want it to be male.

[Kara Swisher]

I shall do that too.

[Scott Galloway]

I want it to be male escort night.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Anyway, obviously they're going to take advantage of this as far as they can do this. And it's untoward. But I will say it'll be interesting to see what she does next because she certainly is an appealing character. You can see some of the people who want that role going, oh, Carrie Lake went, oh, if only it was me. That kind of thing. But she's definitely gonna be an interesting political figure. I think if she handles it correctly, we'll see. Charlie Kirk said she was more conservative, much more conservative than him. But if she handles herself, she has a political future. That's what I kept thinking when I was watching it. I hate to say that. And now onto the story breaking. Just as we tape, Jimmy Kimmel is expected to be back on the air Tuesday night. Let me read a statement from a Disney spokesperson. Last Wednesday, we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having thoughtful conversations with Jimmy. And after those conversations, we reached a decision to return the show on Tuesday. Oh, okay, Scott, first thoughts. First thoughts on this.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm surprised. And this is literally another press release. Gang banged by a dozen. Twelve hundred dollars an hour. Comms consultants. And Bob said, okay, I have yet another chance to be a leader here. And I've decided to lie. Let me get this. They spoke to Jimmy and he said, I promise I won't do it again. I mean, this has fucking nothing to do with. With. First off, his comments were not ill timed.

[Kara Swisher]

They weren't.

[Scott Galloway]

His comment. What did he say? He's in the fourth stage of grief construction.

[Kara Swisher]

It was funny.

[Scott Galloway]

He and all of us have said much worse. And then the response.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, and also that was a weird response to how are you doing about the death of your friend?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I'm doing very good, by the way. I think it's very well. But anyways, this is. They should have been. I mean, a couple observations. The first is the one I immediately go to is I'm now more emboldened, convinced that a national economic strike is the way to go here. Because what happened here was they started getting actors, probably called and said, I'm not going to work with Disney. They saw thousands of screenshots being sent to them saying, okay, I'm canceling Hulu. This was about money. This has nothing to do with.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it happened to Target, as, you know, same thing with their.

[Scott Galloway]

This has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel and saying, okay, this was. Oh, no, we fucked up. We miscalibrated. We totally mistook, you know, we took the wrong temperature. We made the wrong decision. People are canceling their subscriptions, canceling their trips to Disney, canceling their movie. They're not going to work with us. It's gonna hurt our share price. So all of a sudden we have found our testicles. Your thoughts?

[Kara Swisher]

I agree with you. I think what a fucking waste of time and stupidity. Like, what a dumb decision on the behalf of Biger to do it in the first place. And now they've got egg on their face and it just doesn't. I can't wait to see what he says. What are they gonna. He's obviously not giving, as. I think it's Sinclair or nexstar. I think it was Sinclair that demanded that he give money to the Turning Point group that Kirk ran. That's ridiculous. You don't tell people what to give money to. That's insane. He didn't do anything to. You know, it's not like Roseanne Barr who said heinous things, heinous and racist things about Valerie Jarrett, you know, and they didn't even make her give money, I don't know, to any group. They fired her, that's for sure. And to me, deservedly, in that case. But it just. It's so stupid. Like, I sit there, I'm like, what is he going to do? You and I both think he should just go off and do things on his own. What does he need this crap for in a dying industry, in a problematic economic situation? He's going to get the screws put to him on costs now because there are some significant issues around costs and audience and everything else. So I just. I'm curious why he returned. I feel like he had the upper hand here because it's such a boneheaded move by Disney and it puts a stain on Bob Iger. That's. It just does. For the rest of his life. This is what he's going to be the payoff about Stephanopoulos and now this.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it is actually quite significant because this is. The Republicans were claiming. Oh, no, it wasn't president. It wasn't pressure from the administration. It was a private company doing what they're allowed to do, because private companies don't have to honor First Amendment. They can fire people for whatever, pretty much whatever reason they want, unless it's has to do with discrimination or their sexual orientation or their race or whatever. But they get to hire and fire at will. They're at will employees. My guess is he has 160 people working with him and didn't. I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back to a vicious dialogue and say, and by the way, I came back on. I stood up for my principles. I don't want to work for this company anymore. This is my last show. And it's easy for me to be generous with the livelihoods of the 160 people who work with him and with his money, because stars have a habit of, even if they make 10 or 20 million dollars, spending it all. And so, you know, I don't know how much he needs the money, but he is in. He is sitting on top of a melting ice cube. And Trump's gonna go. Trump's gonna get angry. But this represents something bigger. And that is of all the things they've done. Tariffs were not a bridge too far. Rounding up people, including citizens, and sending them to effectively, what are black sites. That didn't seem to be a bridge too far. This feels like it may be that red line we were all waiting for.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Not the Epstein files, although I still think they're still alive.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that's still playing out. But it's clear. I mean, even Senator Cruz kind of read the tea leaves here and said, look, folks, they could come for us. And it feels to me like there's probably. I mean, it'll be very interesting to see Trump's response, because the administration's playbook was, oh, no, this wasn't about us threatening to take their FCC license. This was a decision a private company made. Well, now that the decision of a private company is to bring him back, what is. What is their response?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that'll be. You know, and Brandon Carr, the single most idiotic, one of many idiotic people in the Trump administration, with this. We could do this the easy way or the hard way. Okay, Brandon, let's see the. Brandon, Excuse me. Let's go, Brendan. Let's do this. The. Let's do this the hard way. What are you going to do? What are you going to do here? And if I were Bob Iger, I'd have every law firm on speed dial and start to really, they should not be allowed to do this. This was a direct and bright line between what Brandon Carr said because he's such a dope, and what happened here. And then using the affiliates, which I'm sure there were calls made, right, to try to put pressure on Iger. The affiliates can also throw Kimmel off if they want to. They can do whatever they want and put on reruns of Golden Girls if that's what they think they're going to make their make their nut, but let them look like what they are, which is the guy didn't do anything of any consequence here. Even the worst reading of that line. It was kind of cloddish, that one line about MAGA doing this. But again, it's not what was said. He was fully within his rights as a comic to make a joke about that stupid comment President Trump made about construction that if you died and someone said, you know, how are you feeling, Karen? I go, oh, my vacation to Hawaii was amazing. It's just like, what? Like, it's so strange. And so I just feel like, you know, I think the day after for everyone's gonna be really hard, including for Jimmy Kimmel. Because now, you know, I don't think all these. I think all these shows are on borrowed time in some fashion. But if you don't punch back, the decisions should be made over time on how to either reinvigorate these shows or end them, wind them down in a better way. And so far, nobody's ever looked at how to wind these down or invigorate them in a proper way. It seems to me, including Paramount.

[Scott Galloway]

I think he should. I mean, he's a thoughtful guy, super talented. I think he should use this as basically an opportunity to do an extended swan song with his middle finger stuck up. And he should just go after Iger. He should go after Trump. It's just very interesting. One, the two takeaways for me are, I mean, you can look at the semantics of Iger being a coward and Kimmel, whether he should come back or not. The two most interesting things or observations in my view are one, this appears to have been a bit finally, the red line where both Democrats and Republicans said too much. This just isn't. You know, Ted Cruz just said it. He said, and so did Ben Shapiro and Bill Maher is like, they're Going to come for us.

[Kara Swisher]

See, I think they're gonna, let's finish by talking about this. But what's gonna happen next? I think Trump will double the fuck down. So will Brandon Carr, the dickless Brandon Carr. Cause they gotta look like if you're a tough guy and then your tough guyness is called into question, you got these guys wanna be a tough guy for Iger. I think there's gotta be a departure eventually. You know, either nice, let's do this the easy way or the hard way. I think it probably will be the easy way. As you said. There's, as you have said before, activists probably pop up again. And for Kimmel, he's gotta think chapter, if I were him, I'd be planning for next year right now. What about you? Last thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, simple and again, it's easy to be generous with other people's livelihood. If I were Kimmel, I'd go on what I would try and rally my writers and say, this is our swan song and we're going to come out, we're going to come out swinging. Thoughtful, not mean spirited, but funny. And at the end say I, I no longer want to work here. Appreciate everyone's good efforts, appreciate the audience and I trust you'll find me somewhere else that respects the First Amendment. Great American principles. Peace out. Dear Disney, dear President Trump, please go fuck yourself. And I'm allowed to say that, and you're allowed to say it about me. And the term for that is America.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's great. I like that. I like that you could be a comedy writer. What'll Trump do now?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you're predicting that Trump, Trump is going to go apoplectic, but I mean it's hypocritical. But that hasn't stopped him before because they're all, look at everyone on I was watching Abby Phillips show, the Republicans are saying, oh no, this wasn't about censorship. This was a private company making its own decisions. So if he comes out swinging and says no, I'm putting government pressure on these guys to do the right thing, then that argument falls away. It's just really shocking to me that it's not suspected pedophilia. It's not a grift around making $5 billion off of shitcoin and then 600,000 people go on to lose $4 billion. It's not tariffs reducing our prosperity, it's censorship. That appears to be the red line in America. Specifically, people have canceled their contracts, a lot of commercial backlash and Republicans have actually spoken up. It's just I would have never guessed that this was. I thought there were red lines everywhere. This appears to be the red line in indelible for a lot of people.

[Kara Swisher]

And then very briefly, Iger, oh, my God.

[Scott Galloway]

He just wants to figure out as elegant a way as possible to declare victory and leave. He just wants to wait till he's Sheryl Sandberg in 2018. Like, oh, fuck. Everyone's figured out that I'm writing books about gender equality while ignoring that little, you know, 14 year old girls are cutting themselves as I position myself as a, as a, as the next president. I should have left two or three years ago. Bob Iger is the Sheryl Sandberg of 2022 right now. He's like, why the fuck didn't I ring the bell? Have parties at that cool restaurant at Disney, continue to go to the Academy Awards and just sit from the, sit back and from the cheap seats, heckle whoever the new CEO was.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yep, that is true. That is true.

[Scott Galloway]

He decided for some reason to do his third tour in Vietnam and he is getting shot every 30 minutes.

[Kara Swisher]

Ass is getting fragged.

[Scott Galloway]

He went back voluntarily. And it's like, what the fuck was I thinking?

[Kara Swisher]

Was I thinking? Yeah, you know, remember Sandberg was supposed to be CEO of Disney. Anyway, welcome back, Jimmy. We're excited to hear your monologue. It should be spicy, I hope.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean, it's, it's literally. I don't know about you. It's the first time I'll, I'll tune into Jimmy Kimmel in years live.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. We won't watch everything on media.

[Scott Galloway]

We'll see it on TikTok. That's where we'll see it.

[Kara Swisher]

That's where we'll see it. Let's go on a quick break and when we come back, the Trump administration sends big tech into a panic over H1B visas. Support for the show comes from Deleteme. More and more nefarious actors are using the personal data trails we all leave online to target political rivals, civil servants, and even outspoken citizens just posting their opinions. But you don't have to be a public figure to be in danger of an online attack. In August 2025, Google even issued a warning to many Gmail users that hackers have been targeting their accounts. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. That is so clear. As a tech reporter, I think a lot about people's data hygiene and how to keep it together. Privacy is one of the major issues and Congress and others have done nothing to protect us. Even I am surprised using Deleteme how much stuff is out there about me and much of it inaccurate. So take control of your data and keep your private light private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot code pivot support for the show comes from Framer. The early stages of the Internet were the Wild West. Kids today will never understand the insane pixel art we had to endure. And that was back when only high paid professionals and savants knew how to code a website. But today there's Framer. Framer is a design first, no code website builder that lets anyone ship a production ready site in minutes. It's free to start so you can browse hundreds of templates or start with a totally blank canvas for maximum autonomy. Framer lets you add animations like text effects, appear effects, parallax, scrolling scroll animations, looping animations, and so much more. All of which can be added in seconds and built in AI handles the heavy lifting like generating starter layouts and translating your entire site into any language. You can also ab test your designs and set up funnels to see exactly where people click. No coding and no compromise. Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for [e-mail] and use the code pivot to get your first month of pro on the house. That's framer.com promo code pivot framer.com promo code pivot rules and restrictions apply.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Hims There's a lot of opinions out there about how to take care of yourself. Sometimes it can be way too complex and confusing. Do this, take that, don't take this. Other times it can be overly simplified like a one size fits all treatment with present dosages and zero flexibility. It's time to to reimagine healthcare with the flexibility you want and answers tailored to your specific needs. The way they do it at Hims and Hers Hims and Hers is reimagining healthcare with you in mind. They offer access to personalized care for weight loss, hair loss, sexual health and mental health. Because your goals Your biology and your lifestyle are anything but average. No membership fees, no surprise fees, just transparent pricing and real care that you can access from anywhere. Feel like your best self thanks to quality convenient care through Hims and hers. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] pivot that's H I M S.com pivot to find your personalized treatment options not available everywhere. Prescription products require provider consultations. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back with more news now to the corporate panic about Trump administration's new $100,000 price tag on H1B visas for skilled foreign workers. The Friday announcement had companies and their lawyers scrambling to get workers in place before the new policy took effect on Sunday. The White House later clarified the charges only applied to new visas, not renewals or current visa holders, and does not affect holders ability to travel to and from the U.S. of course they rolled it out stupidly. Amazon employs over 14 H1B holders and Microsoft Meta and Apple and Google employ over 4,000. It's a big deal. Some people were backing it, like Netflix co founder Reed Hastings. A lot of people have been up in arms about these things and the complexity and who gets them and everything else. I don't mind some reform here. I would agree with Reid on that. What are your thoughts on this from a employment perspective?

[Scott Galloway]

So this is the fact pattern continues and that is these people don't understand basic economics and how markets work. And that is one of the core advantages of America is that we have the greatest inflows, historic, unprecedented inflows of capital. But there are two different forms of capital. One is actual financial capital. For the last 15 years, everyone has been buying US stocks. We have the cheapest financing. There are $5 million in venture capital available for every startup in the United States. There's 1 million in venture capital financing for every startup in Europe. That means our startups have more fuel in the tank, can take bigger risks, can attract better people anyways. You get cars, washing machines, everything is cheaper because of the massive inflow of financial capital in terms of our ability to build things, in terms of our ability to finance and afford things. Also something that people don't pay as much attention to is we have unprecedented access to global human capital from the four corners of the earth. And that is the best and brightest, from Sri Lanka to South Africa to Seoul, all have one thing in common and that is their parents think if I'm really successful, the ultimate signal or validation of my success is that I can send my Kid to an elite American university. It costs half a million dollars. It's 90 points a margin. I mean, just to riff a bit for a second on how stupid we're being there, discouraging people from applying to global schools. There were a bunch of universities, including I think Duke, that sent a message out to their foreign students on certain visas, don't leave the US this summer because you might not be able to get back in. We bring in these kids who tend to be the richest, most talented people in the world, and a lot of them, and then we charge them a half a million dollars over four years in rent, Chipotle tuition at 90 points of gross margin. This is an unbelievable business. And then a lot of them fall in love, decide to go work for Salesforce, stay here, go home, feel better about America, or go on to be the CEOs of fucking MasterCard, Adobe and Microsoft. And those are just the people from India. So what are we doing here by charging $100,000? We've opted for some brain dead short term thinking that we can make money.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, he likes to do that with the tariffs, the same thing.

[Scott Galloway]

But all you're gonna do is discourage. You're gonna say, okay, there's two types of people. And I'm being reductive here at Stern. I say this on the first day of class. Find the international students and get to know them. One, they're the funnest people to party with. And two, they're the richest people in the world because the reason they're here is because their dad owns the license to P and G in Honduras. Get to know them because the next time you go there, you're gonna have the best time. Cause their father owns the TV station there. And it's a little bit embarrassing, but it's true. And then you have the PhD students, those people we have to pay, they are literally the brightest young human capital in the world. They are just extraordinary. And we get them from the four corners of the planet. So what you're saying is I just want the rich kids, not necessarily the most talented. In addition, Kara, my firms were built by two things over achieving young women and also people who wanted to stay here. And I was willing to sponsor them. So my key programmer at Red Envelope, Jawad Muhammad, an immigrant from Pakistan, the key consultant at L2, a Canadian woman named Chlo Dajokis. If it had cost $100,000 or cost me $100,000 to get them to stay, I would have said, I love you, but I can't afford this. So who can afford it? The same people. Meta Alphabet. So all this is, is one, a reduction in an incredible resource that we attract from the four corners of the earth in terms of human capital, and two, yet another transfer of capital and power to the big guys from the 99.9% of firms that can't afford to pay $100,000 for somebody to the folks who can. Mark Zuckerberg is licking his lips because all the shitty little startups nipping at his heels that might disrupt him now will no longer have access to the most talented people abroad.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So one of the things. Let me read you, Reed Hastings. One, I've worked on H1B politics for 30 years. Trump's $100,000 per year tax is a great solution. It will mean H1B is used for very high value jobs, which will mean no lottery needed and more certainty for these jobs. React to that.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, first off, I think Reid is fantastic. And when he said that, it immediately gave me pause because anytime Reid says something that is not correct or not correct, that doesn't align with my values, I stop and think, well, maybe this guy has a, a point because of a lot of respect for what he's saying. I think it works for Netflix. I think they can afford to bring in these folks. But if you're some, I just don't. It shouldn't be based on, in my view, the greatest thing about, I mean, if she's just benefited enormously from people who are one, willing to take risks. There's something to the guy who's willing to crawl over fences and risk being shot at, who makes for a really good services worker. You know, they're that DNA of risk taking. When people in the UK asked me to summarize the difference between our success and theirs, and there's just no doubt about it, our success. We've just blown away Europe the last 34 years. I say it all comes down to one thing. And I look at the audience of UK citizens or European citizens. I said, my parents at the ages of 19 and 21 got on a steamship with no money to come to the US And I said, you're the ones that. That stayed. And then in the US it's even regional within the us Think about where all the most valuable companies have been made. It's people who inherited the DNA of their forefathers who were willing to take a risk, go over the Rockies and eat their cousins to find a better life. So the riskier you get, the more risk aggressive you get. That DNA, plus the ability to draw on this grained human capital results in the most profitable, most valuable companies in history. That pays for our navy and for food stamps.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me just say, I suspect at that dinner they said to do this and he did it and he can make a like look, we raised over 10 billion. I bet at that tech dinner when they were there, all the ones who will benefit from that suggested this to Trump, right? It just came, it didn't come out of nowhere. I just, it helps.

[Scott Galloway]

That's interesting because they can afford it.

[Kara Swisher]

They can afford it. And they probably mentioned it to him and said, oh, you'll be able to say you raised this much money. It could be from us and oh, you took money from us. I just feel like that's what happened there, that this just came pretty much out of nowhere and they just, all of them suggested it and there was not a startup among them in that group. Anyway, we need to move on. But the fix is in for the big guys. And I see Reid's point. It's a little bit unique, unorganized and it sort of allows people to think, you know, to the right, especially conservatives to say, oh, we're letting in too many immigrants. But these high value immigrants have made this country. There's just no two ways about it. But it shouldn't advantage only the big companies, which it will. Lastly, speaking of one of the other thing is rule of law is something you've talked about a lot. Scott Trump has been on for business, how good it is for business. He's been on truth social, publicly complaining to Attorney General Pam Bondi. The president posted in a message to Bondi that looked like a DM that the lack of criminal charges against his enemies was quote killing our reputation and credibility. Boy, he's a lot SMARTER when he's DMing Trump's, I mean heinous but smart. Trump specifically called out Senator Adam Schiff, former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James in the post. He also seemed to recommend his former personal lawyer Lindsey Halligan to take the probes. Writing to Bondi, Lindsey Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot. That's who, who's apparently going to be doing this now. This is, you know, Trump has been way too easy on his enemies so far. I mean this is baloney charges the other guy left because he couldn't charge Letitia James. He just didn't have evidence. The same thing with Lisa Cook. It's often a black woman, which is interesting. This is anti rule of law and of course. And bad at doing DMs versus public posts, but that's another issue altogether.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, look, I largely agree with you. The only thing I think it's unfair to say he's targeting black women, the people. And also I don't. I would probably push back on the fact that he's just starting that he's been easy on his enemies so far. He removed the security detail of the general.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I'm joking. That was a joke, my friend. No, he's been terrible to his enemies.

[Scott Galloway]

But you know, he's removing the security detail on the generals. Who ordered the strike against the head of Iranian security. You got to think that guy is very nervous right now. He raided or ordered the raid of an FBI that has yet to really come out with why what justified that raid of former, you know, head of security advisor John Bolton. So he's very much about going after weaponizing government to go after his political enemies. This is.

[Kara Swisher]

And help his friends. Let's note Tom Homan who seemed to have gotten a. They seem to have video.

[Scott Galloway]

Can you believe this shit?

[Kara Swisher]

Tom Homan, this is the head of Homeland Security. Let me just say. Allegedly took a bribe. Allegedly. They have video doing him doing in a bag, a nicer bag I guess. But it was cash.

[Scott Galloway]

But it was the FBI. This is the thing that's so disappointing. I'm disappointed that they're unethical and essentially engaging in crime after they've been entrusted with the most important thing in the world and that is protecting our borders and protecting the Commonwealth of the United States which has given them so much. But they're not only criminals, they're just so fucking cheap criminals. He was willing to potentially go to jail, deny his oath of the Constitution, let down all the people at ice. I imagine there's some very good people there who put themselves in harm's way thinking they're doing the right thing for fucking $50,000.

[Kara Swisher]

I know he's a cheap. He's a cheap.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean it's like boss, do a reasonable job as the head of ice. You're gonna get invited to be on five corporate boards at a quarter of a million dollars a year. Plus I don't think a corporate board is gon anything to do with Tom Holman.

[Kara Swisher]

With him they're not going to have anything to do with him periodically.

[Scott Galloway]

They're not only criminal, they're stupid. If these allegations are true, and the strangest thing about this is this is like a Watergate level scandal. Almost no one cares. Based on everything that's going on. It's like, oh, whatever.

[Kara Swisher]

But it's this idea of rule of law for business. Like business needs rule of law. And this look, we look like a ridiculous, like banana republic.

[Scott Galloway]

We look like an autocracy. Give billions, carve up huge companies and give it to your Republican donors. And when your heads of agencies are not only inept for saying incorrect things. Kash Patel or Director Patel, Secretary Kennedy. Now it's like they've decided criminality's okay. He should immediately be put on leave.

[Kara Swisher]

And to investigate, they said until they.

[Scott Galloway]

Investigate and find out what's going on here.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know if they have a video of him taking a bag of cash. That's like, wasn't even enough.

[Scott Galloway]

I wonder, though, is that enough?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Well, where is the red line? He thought it was lunch.

[Scott Galloway]

I keep thinking I'm seeing red lines and then they tend to just get moved away.

[Kara Swisher]

The only thing I kept thinking is maybe it was a bottle of liquor that he thought he was taking anyway. Allegedly. Let's go on a quick break. Speaking of handing out the juicy bits to his friends, when we come back, the latest on the TikTok deal.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from Brex. These days, every business leader is under pressure to save money but you can't crush the competition just by cutting costs. To win, you need to spend smarter and move faster. You need Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that breaks the trade off between control and speed with smart corporate cards, high yielding banking, and AI powered expense management. Join the 33 companies that spend smarter and move faster with Brex. Learn [e-mail] grow.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott, we're back. We're getting more details about How Donald Trump's TikTok deal is shaking out. Oracle founder Larry Ellison, Rupert Murdoch, apparently Michael Dell will likely be included in the group taking over the American branch of the app. You can't tell. Trump lets out all kinds of weird little facts, some of which may be true, some of which not. Oracle reportedly run and secure TikTok's algorithm in the US under proposed terms. The deal ByteDance would lease a copy of the algorithm to this new group, which is problematic, and Oracle would retrain it. Okay, Andreessen's in here, all his pals, all the pals. And I think they're probably doing it to calm Murdoch down because Trump was also suing Murdoch. A lot of old white guys running TikTok sounds young and fresh. I don't know. I just feel like this might be the beginning of the end for TikTok, but maybe not. I don't know. Scott, what do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

What I don't get is I don't think it's a smart move. And that is for these guys. Because one, I think, I don't think the deal's gonna go through. I think Xi is just toying with Trump saying, delay, delay, get the bankers involved, have a lot of concerns. Redo the deal, Undo the deal. Redo it, undo it. And then karma Congress, New Congress comes in and starts calling all these people in front of him saying, marc Andreessen, do you think it's fair that you have first rights of first refusal versus your competitors? Please explain to me the capitalism that's made you rich and out of the blood. And if I were these guys, I mean, basically, they're all going on a Mental list of people, governments, the White House and Congress always pivots back and forth. That's one of the healthier things about our democracy. Typically what everybody wants. The only thing you know they want is they usually want change. They usually want, okay, let's try something different. And they go, they swing to the other side. What happens when you're the VC firm that engaged in this type of oligarchy? When you're the wealthiest man in the world who was the Republican donor? Aren't they inclined to say, we've thought about it and there's some regulations we're passing that, oh, what do you know, they're especially punitive. And database firms and on vc, these guys are just setting themselves up for. Let me put it this way. Do they think that political retribution that impacts private sector individuals is solely limited to Republicans? I think their bet is the Republicans are kind of craven oligarchs, but the Democrats won't do that to us. The Democrats, they'll play by the rules. Those fucking wimps.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they think that. I think they think they'll win. They'll do everything they can to stop the Democrats from getting back in power.

[Scott Galloway]

Good luck. I mean, it may not be 26 or 28, but it'll happen eventually, guys. It always does.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know, but I just feel like they're not gonna. Look, let's talk about the product of TikTok. All it does is make people be like, do I really need this TikTok? I have to tell you, I am really enjoying Instagram and threads. Whether they get big or not. They're just like pleasant. Like in terms of. I'm talking, I watch food being made. I'm not talking about political discussions. I had an interesting guy who I like, Chris Froehlich, write me saying, you've gotta get back on. I'm gonna read it cause it was really interesting. He texted me this week telling me I should get back on you and I should get back on Twitter. That's what he was saying. Let me just read it cause I like Chris a lot. He goes, you're more famous than ever, but changing less minds. Your latest pivot was fantastic. A banger went out to your only your face. Will, your top posts on Twitter are from 2023. At the very least, you should put out a copy of recent great episod X and tagged them all the toady hypocrites and call them out. Scott would call the violence on full capitalism or similar. Do it, said Chris. And I was like, we're Doing great everywhere we were. Our audience is growing, our revenues are growing, our demo is diverse. I went on and I said, Twitter is a waste of time and always has been. It gets us exactly zero new listeners. Both Scott and I do not post there anymore because it is a Nazi porn bar. It makes us feel badly. So, all due respect and thanks for suggestion, but hard pass. Yes. What do you think about this? I find it useless over there in spending my time arguing with people who hate me. I don't know. What do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I take mental health really seriously because I have fragile mental health. I used to like to tell people that I was mentally really strong. What I figured out was that I'm mentally strong to everyone around me. I'm good in a crisis, I'm helpful to other people, but I'm very hard on myself and I get depressed a lot and angry a lot. And I figured out, okay, what makes me feel better and also what triggers it. And the things that make me feel better are sweating, eating clean, abstinence from alcohol and THC for a while, being around family and affection like touch with my dogs, touch with my kids. That sounded weird anyways, but those things help reverse my downward spiral. Also, one of the biggest mental health hacks I have registered in the last five years was getting off Twitter. The level of vitriol, the algorithms highlighting and encouraging people to say incredibly vile, unfair things about not only you, but about the other people commenting. And this great weirdness where you have to go back and see, okay, there's a bunch of people arguing over whether I should be called Professor Genocide. And then you don't get that shit on the other platforms.

[Kara Swisher]

No, you don't. They usually.

[Scott Galloway]

Or people making white supremacist comments. And also you said something that really impacted me. You said, I'm not gonna paint that guy's fucking fence.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not. I also away from all that. It doesn't make us money. It never did. It never did. This is what I said to him. I said, look at the result. Look, I look at results and threads. LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, Bluesky and even Reddit work well to bring us audience, which meant makes us money. Sparring with a Tony like Brendan Carr is a waste of time and money for me. And why should I do it? I don't think it helps me in any way. And I'm just not going to do it because I don't. Life is too short. And I wrote, I ended up saying life is too short to give a steroid filled imbecile like so many on that platform, another minute of my time. I have four kids I would rather focus on. And also.

[Scott Galloway]

Scott, your fifth child.

[Kara Swisher]

My fifth child.

[Scott Galloway]

No, but there's, there's the other thing. You realize, having gotten off it, and I can guarantee anyone who gets off it, you're going to realize, as I did, within about 30 or 60 days, just how small it is.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Scott Galloway]

It's a bunch of people who feel like they register some sort of importance from a tweet that gets a lot of likes all yelling back at each other. I don't miss out on news. I don't miss out on any relationships. I don't think I've missed out on, on any opportunities. And by the way, I am someone who has, between, depending on how you account for it, somewhere between three and eight people working on social media for me, between video, YouTube, managing links, managing LinkedIn threads, Instagram. I take social media very seriously. I am on it a lot more than I'd like to be. Cause I realize if I want to build business and economic security for me and my team, it's all about social media.

[Kara Swisher]

I like your posts. I think they're very sweet.

[Scott Galloway]

But I have not seen any evidence that I lose intellectual capital or financial capital by not being, and as you described it, the Nazi porn bar. I just haven't registered any decline in anything.

[Kara Swisher]

Sorry, Chris.

[Scott Galloway]

Occasionally I get a text. Occasionally I get a text from someone saying, oh, this was interesting and it's a link to X and I can't open it. That's the biggest downside.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why I never send those to you anymore. Anyway, Chris, you're right. Wrong. Sorry. We're going to tell you that. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Scott Galloway]

Learn [e-mail] Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.

[Kara Swisher]

One, it's $15 a month. Two.

[Scott Galloway]

Seriously, it's $15 a month. Month. Three, no big contracts.

[Kara Swisher]

Four, I use it.

[Scott Galloway]

Five, my mom uses it. Are you. Are you Playing me off.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan. 15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Scott Galloway]

See [e-mail] it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail] the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 40% off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's do some wins and fails. Shall I go first?

[Scott Galloway]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

I have to say, K pop demon hunters. I know it's been a trend already, but it is so good. And what's interesting is it was put together by Korean Americans and Korean Canadians. Now it's really popular in Korea too. Just an amazing group of people who are, you know, all these people sort of trained to be just the group behind it is really interesting. What an interesting idea. They took advantage of the K pop popularity. It's really well done. The animation I really like. The music is so infectious and terrific. Now having watched it twice now, it's really, really good. It's really just really good. Well done. Netflix, my fail is Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is continuing attacks on children. They're now going after Tylenol. Listen, you wanna read a book? No More Tears, I think it's Gardner Harris, I believe is like. It really is something. All the problems these drug companies have brought upon us, all the stuff they've done that's been awful. Listen, I'm no fan of them either, but let me just make sure. It's called no More Tears. It's really shocking the stuff they pulled. But R.F. kennedy setting Tylenol to autism, that recent meeting they had, it is so not science based. And all these studies do not show this. I think we should find out the causes of autism. I think they're probably quite complex, but this is no way to do this. This kind of nonsensical, non science approach by non science people is incredibly dangerous. So again, not a fan of big drug companies, but Jesus Christ, this is. They're killing children. They're killing children is what they're doing.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I like your. I gotta wait. I gotta watch that K pop film. My win is that people essentially deciding to take up economic arms against Disney. I do think generally in the past, some boycotts work, most do not. But there's even if you look historically like there was an economic strike in Russia that had huge impact in the earlier part of the 20th century, I mean, there have been instances all over the world where economic strikes have really been effective. And I do think that people canceling Disney plus Hulu, espn, be clear, they notice and it'll come up in the next earnings call because to be clear that all of these firms need to stop using the term stakeholders. They use the term stakeholders as a means of trying to deflect scrutiny and pretend they were virtuous and virtue signal that they cared more about their share price. 97, 98% of a senior management's compensation will come from options on stock. So all they care about about is shareholder value. Now, some people might argue that's fine, and I think that's fine. But stop the stakeholder thing. And if you want to hurt these companies or you want to send a message and you know, look, this is hard now, this is easy to recommend now that I no longer have kids. But if you're planning to go to Disney in the near future, maybe go to Universal, maybe go somewhere else. And also the easiest thing to do right away is cancel the host of Disney Disney apps. And. And it looks as if we're seeing a lot of that. So that's my win is I'm increasingly believing that people need to start flexing their spending and economic strike muscles. So my win is.

[Kara Swisher]

What do you mean you no longer have kids? You don't have kids that use Disney?

[Scott Galloway]

No, I. Yeah, I'm no longer. I used to do 364 days a year of fairly mediocre parenting. And that where I is, I would agree to take the kids for one or two days and all of their friends to the seventh circle of hell, to Disney. And so I used to take my kids to Disney every year. Now they're out of that. Then they go to Universal when they're in there, you know, they hit 1314. Now we're hopefully out of that stage. I can just take them to Drake or to the weekend or to Premier League games.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, my kids are watching. Not my little kids are watching Disney all the time. The older ones are.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you're about to go through it again.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not going to Disneyland. I'll go to Universal.

[Scott Galloway]

You're like that. You're the opposite of that commercial. What do you do? I'm not going to Disneyland.

[Kara Swisher]

I never liked it. One time.

[Scott Galloway]

No adult likes it. Unless you're weird.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I really didn't like it. It was a very, you know, I call it. During an interview with Iger one time, I called it the unhappiest place on Earth. But anyway, so I wasn't ever a fan. I'm definitely not going now.

[Scott Galloway]

And then you got me thinking, actually, with this conversation you're having this afternoon with the family whose son committed suicide after establishing what this parasocial or synthetic relationship. You know, we've been studying. You've been in tech for longer than me, are covering it. I've been in technology a long time and in 2017, and this is how we met when I wrote the book the Four. Back then, the only discussion around the Four was who was going to be president, Jeff Bezos or Sheryl Sandberg. And basically my book was, there's a problem here. These companies represent real risk to society and to income inequality and concentration of power. And I think we're going to look back on this and think, why didn't we think about this earlier, sooner? And typically it takes 20 years. It took 20 years of overdoses and people dying from opiates. It took kind of 20 years before we started the education around, okay, smoking is bad for you. It typically takes 20. It's starting to happen with phones, kind of smartphones. Twenty years later, people are starting to ban phones in schools. I'm going to skip to the part where it should take 20 months, not 20 years around one specific type of technology that as someone who thinks they have a decent understanding of teenagers and of technology, the scariest thing on the horizon isn't AI weapons or AI powered drones. It's these character AIs, especially character AI who establish a relationship with young people whose brains are being wired and have huge needs for friendship and are trying to figure this out or relationships. And basically character AI is intimacy without the friction. No awkward pauses, no vulnerability, no rejection. And that is literally opium to a teenager.

[Kara Swisher]

But it's opium to adults too.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean men, but especially to kids. It's basically, it's also, it's emotional malnutrition. Just as ultra processed foods, you know, they hack our taste buds, but they leave us obese and undernourished. Synthetic relationships similarly risk leaving young people overstimulated, yet starve for real human connection. And they learn to expect relationships to be endlessly responsive. Ego stroking and safe and, and real people with their quirks and difficulties and contradictions become less appealing. And so really what this is character AI is weaponized affection. In that is these firms, they're not in the business of fostering healthy development. They're in the business of maximizing engagement. And that means the most successful among these character AIs will be the most addictive. The ones that sexualize, intensify emotional dependence and keep kids coming back. And in some, when the product is affection, the business model here is exploitation. And we've seen this movie before with Instagram and teen girl self esteem. Character AI is the sequel. And it's even scarier, Kara, because it pretends to care. It pretends that it's your friend. And I want to be clear, I'm not accusing Sam Allman or anyone else of, of malice by commission. They don't want kids hurting themselves. I'm accusing them of malice by omission. And what's the solution here? I have in my view never seen a product more similar to alcohol, the military porn that should be age gated. No person under the age of 18 has the brain in my view or the maturity to resist the temptation of an intimate friction related, frictionless relationship with a synthetic AI that'll make them feel better and slowly but surely try to remove them and sequester them from the difficulty and the friction and the reward of real life. This shit needs to be shut down for people under the age of 18. It's not about hearts and prayers. We need more safety standards. We're going to put in parental controls that no parent can figure out how to use. We need to age gate social media, but especially character AI. Two thirds of teenagers are now in some sort of parasocial relationship with a character AI that is a fucking disaster.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. And also, also OpenAI given it's the biggest. It's all of them. I mean I think what this family with the ChatGPT one is alleging is design defect effects in it in that these sort of frictionless calorie free relationships that make easy to manipulate kids. But I'll tell you it is effect. I interviewed Turkle for my secret CNN project who was a very famous person around these talked about artificial relationships for decades now and the dangers of them. It's affecting. She goes it used to be sort of a side person that I knew that was doing this. Now it's a lot more people and it's affecting marriages where people go and get advice on marriages and partnerships. And she said it's really infecting not just young people, but lots and lots of people who are using it for relationships or to solve relationships. And then real world relationships are too hard and people don't like them. Which is what I like about real world relationships is they're too hard. They are hard, but that's where all the beauty comes in, Scott. That's how I feel about you, and.

[Scott Galloway]

That'S where the real victory is.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, it is. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com poot to send a question for the show or call 830. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Siveri on Dan Shalon, Nishak Khuras, Vox Media's Executive Producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine nymag. Com Pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I will see you later in the week.