Kara's Washington Post Bid, Trump's TikTok Plans, and Tesla's Sales Drop

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary: Kara's Washington Post Bid, Trump's TikTok Plans, and Tesla's Sales Drop

Date Released: January 7, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Network: New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

In the January 7, 2025 episode of Pivot, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway dive into a whirlwind of current events intersecting technology, politics, and business. Settling into their dynamic rapport, the hosts immediately engage in their characteristic banter, setting an energetic tone for the discussions ahead.

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2. Trump's TikTok Plans

Timestamp: [06:18]

Kara initiates the conversation with the pressing issue of TikTok's potential ban under President Donald Trump. She outlines how Trump has urged the Supreme Court to pause the ban, aiming to negotiate a resolution instead. The Justice Department has countered by requesting the court to reject the delay, and the Supreme Court is set to hear arguments on Friday.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [06:21]: "I have suggested that Elon Musk is gonna try to buy it and merge it with X. And probably Larry Ellison will probably be in there."

Scott adds his perspective, considering the likelihood of a successful acquisition amidst CCP (Chinese Communist Party) influences and regulatory hurdles.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [09:06]: "But defense issues typically trump First Amendment issues."

The discussion touches upon Ellen Musk’s potential bid to acquire TikTok, highlighting the complexities and improbabilities of such an endeavor given the geopolitical and corporate barriers.

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3. Net Neutrality Verdict

Timestamp: [14:12]

Shifting focus, the hosts address the federal appeals court's decision to strike down the FCC's restoration of net neutrality. Kara explains that the court deemed the FCC unqualified to regulate internet content access and speed, a move that stirred significant debate.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [14:33]: "The fear is the wonderful thing about the Internet was it essentially cut out... Now people are getting their Internet through Starlink or they're getting it through the telcos."

Scott reflects on the implications, arguing that while net neutrality aimed to prevent monopolistic practices by telecom giants, the real-world fears of corporate overreach haven’t materialized as projected.

Kara concurs, questioning the long-term authority and the evolving landscape of internet regulation, suggesting that Internet access should be treated as a utility.

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4. Tesla's Sales Decline Amid Rising Competition

Timestamp: [36:00]

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes Tesla's sales performance, noting a 1% decline in global sales in 2024—the first since 2011. Kara attributes this dip to increased competition from rivals like China's BYD, which offers newer models at lower prices.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [40:51]: "It's hard to understand how a company is trading on every metric at a greater multiple than any other automobile... It’s a meme stock at this point."

Despite the sales drop, Tesla's valuation remains robust, buoyed by Elon Musk’s influential standing and his ties with Trump. Scott labels Tesla as a "meme stock," emphasizing the disconnect between the company's tangible performance metrics and its market valuation.

The conversation also touches on the broader Electric Vehicle (EV) market trends, mentioning companies like Rivian and the enduring appeal of hybrids, particularly championed by Toyota.

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5. Elon Musk’s Political and Business Maneuvering

Timestamp: [41:30]

Elon Musk's intricate relationship with Donald Trump is dissected, with Kara asserting that Musk's alliance with Trump significantly bolsters Tesla's market position.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [42:35]: "It's Elon. It's the valuation on Elon is what it is. That's all it is."

Scott adds depth to this analysis by discussing Musk's philanthropic contributions to Trump's inauguration and the ensuing increase in his net worth, highlighting the symbiotic relationship between Musk’s business ventures and his political alliances.

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6. The Addiction Economy: Beyond Attention

Timestamp: [20:17]

Scott provokes a thought-provoking discussion by redefining the attention economy as an addiction economy. He argues that the most valuable companies thrive by creating addictive platforms, drawing parallels with traditional industries like tobacco and sugary foods.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [20:17]: "I used to think we were in an attention economy. Now I'm totally sold on the fact that we don't. We live in an addiction economy."

Kara supports this notion, emphasizing TikTok's sophisticated algorithms that cater to individual preferences, making the platform profoundly addictive.

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7. Efforts to Acquire the Washington Post

Timestamp: [27:01]

Kara reveals her ambition to bid for The Washington Post, sparking a candid debate about the feasibility and motivations behind such a move. She shares her strategy of engaging various stakeholders and fostering transparency in the acquisition process.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [30:04]: "I am a better reporter. I'm sorry. It's a factual thing."

Scott remains skeptical, pointing out the improbability of Jeff Bezos selling a major media outlet and questioning the potential success of such an acquisition.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [28:23]: "If you were serious about doing this, you would have had offline conversations with Bezos."

The dialogue underscores the complexities of media ownership and the challenges journalists face in maintaining editorial independence amidst corporate interests.

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8. Meta’s Staffing Shifts and Political Alignment

Timestamp: [51:56]

The hosts scrutinize Meta’s recent staffing changes, specifically the replacement of Nick Clegg with Joel Kaplan, a known Republican and friend of Brett Kavanaugh. Kara criticizes this move, suggesting it signals a shift towards more conservative content moderation policies.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [54:30]: "He really is the guy who's done this. If there's one person, I think of."

Scott adds that Kaplan’s appointment reflects Meta’s alignment with Trump-friendly policies, further entrenching political biases within the platform’s governance.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [53:28]: "He is really redefined investor relations as it relates to storytelling."

This segment highlights the ongoing tension between corporate stewardship and political influences within major tech companies.

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9. Reflections on Jimmy Carter's Legacy

Timestamp: [70:12]

Scott offers a heartfelt reflection on former President Jimmy Carter, positioning him as a paragon of integrity and resilience. He lauds Carter’s post-presidential endeavors, including his humanitarian work with Habitat for Humanity and peace initiatives.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [70:12]: "He saw that coming. He was actually pretty well ahead of his time in terms of understanding human nature."

Kara echoes the sentiment, recommending a CNN documentary that celebrates Carter's contributions and musical interests, further cementing his status as a revered figure.

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10. Meta’s Struggles with AI and Content Moderation

Timestamp: [56:46]

Kara delves into Meta’s ongoing challenges with AI-generated content and misinformation. She criticizes Meta’s response to backlash, emphasizing the company's reluctance to take responsibility for the proliferation of harmful content.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [58:23]: "He's the most dangerous person in the world who doesn't even know it."

Scott concurs, expressing concerns over Mark Zuckerberg's leadership and the broader societal impacts of AI-driven misinformation.

Notable Quote:

Scott Galloway [58:23]: "The primary arbiters of expertise and knowledge are LLMs... it has done tremendous damage to our society."

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11. Conclusion and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Kara and Scott recap their discussions, highlighting the intertwining of technology, politics, and societal issues. They hint at future topics, including a special segment with Bill Maher, and encourage listeners to engage with their content.

Notable Quote:

Kara Swisher [75:44]: "It's invigorating for me. I'm excited for 2025."

They sign off with their characteristic blend of insight and wit, leaving listeners with much to ponder about the rapidly evolving landscape of tech and politics.

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Key Takeaways:

• Political Influence on Tech: The interplay between political figures like Trump and tech magnates such as Elon Musk significantly impacts market dynamics and regulatory landscapes.

• Media Ownership and Independence: Efforts to acquire major media outlets like The Washington Post raise questions about editorial independence and corporate influence.

• Net Neutrality's Future: The Supreme Court's stance on net neutrality could redefine internet governance and access, with lasting implications for consumers and providers alike.

• Shift to an Addiction Economy: The evolution from attention-driven to addiction-driven business models underscores ethical considerations for tech companies.

• Corporate Responsibility: Meta's staffing changes and handling of AI-generated content highlight ongoing challenges in balancing profitability with societal responsibilities.

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Notable Quotes Recap:

• Kara Swisher [06:21]: "I have suggested that Elon Musk is gonna try to buy it and merge it with X. And probably Larry Ellison will probably be in there."

• Scott Galloway [09:06]: "But defense issues typically trump First Amendment issues."

• Scott Galloway [20:17]: "I used to think we were in an attention economy. Now I'm totally sold on the fact that we don't. We live in an addiction economy."

• Kara Swisher [30:04]: "I am a better reporter. I'm sorry. It's a factual thing."

---

This episode of Pivot weaves together critical analyses of contemporary issues, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the forces shaping our world. Through incisive commentary and engaging dialogue, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway provide valuable insights into the nexus of technology, politics, and business.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist. And I'm Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy and how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help.

[Scott Galloway]

So download the latest episode and [e-mail].

[Kara Swisher]

Oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Scott Galloway]

It's sexism. When I'm late, it's a crime against humanity. When you're late, it's because you're so important.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. It's 2025.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm Scott Galloway. How are you, Kara? Good.

[Kara Swisher]

We're back. We're both in New York and we're not together. You were with your other side piece, Jess Tarloff, down at Vox. And I'm up at a hotel. Younger, more beautiful, more witty, and yet not. Not me, as usual. Cause I am the one you always come back to. And that is why, Scott, today I was searching and searching for a song that we could begin our 2025 year with. Or yet another year for the two.

[Scott Galloway]

This is gonna be so bad. You have the worst taste in music. I'm literally cringing before it.

[Kara Swisher]

And I picked this just for you. Cue the tape.

[Scott Galloway]

What is this feeling so sudden and new?

[Kara Swisher]

I felt the moment I left.

[Scott Galloway]

No, no, really.

[Kara Swisher]

My pulse is rushing. My head is really. Yeah, well, my face is flushing.

[Scott Galloway]

What is this feeling affirming us? Does it have a name? Loathing an adulterer. Okay, okay, I get it. I think it should be the intro music for that To Catch a Predator series.

[Kara Swisher]

I love that song. That song has become a viral hit online. By the way, everybody's copying that dance with the book.

[Scott Galloway]

It might be viral, but it's so good.

[Kara Swisher]

It's such our song. I feel like, first we start off in Eminis, we're emonies, and then we become like this. And then we become a joint togetherness, and we sing together. I just feel it's perfect. It's a perfect theme. It's loathing that becomes love. That is what we are. That is what it is.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I gotta go see Wicked. Everyone says it's great.

[Kara Swisher]

You wanna go tonight? You and I can Go.

[Scott Galloway]

I'd say yes, but I don't want to. I tried to think of an excuse we could go.

[Kara Swisher]

Listen, here's what an idea is. Listen. We go to Bon. We get really drunk. We go see Wicked. What do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

You're halfway there. I'll do half of that.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, we should definitely.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll bring Thoreau, we'll bring all our friends on.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm doing this Brotopia dinners where I just invite a bunch of men to dinners.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for inviting me, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you might be an honorary guest sometime. You invite me to the women dinner, the chick flicks, so I can serve. That's my favorite. You think it's hilarious to have men serve you?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I do. Anyway, it's appropriate.

[Scott Galloway]

But where I'm going is if we went down, we should try this test. If we just immediately, like 9pm headed to 0bonn or Casa Cipriani or one of my other douchebag members clubs. And we started texting people. I bet so many people would join us. My niece, last minute text saying, hey, do you want to grab a drink or do you want to grab dinner? And so many people are more available than you think.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, you should do that. I'm going to be with Anderson Cooper tonight.

[Scott Galloway]

That's A.C. what are you doing?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I'm going on the show. Yeah, I'm going on the show.

[Scott Galloway]

All right. AC360.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll bring.

[Scott Galloway]

He's got the biggest show on CNN. He gets like 40, 45 viewers. So that's a big deal for you.

[Kara Swisher]

I love A.C. don't be. By the way. He was great on New Year's, wasn't he? With Andy Cohen? That was pretty funny.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't watch TV anymore. Do you actually watch tv?

[Kara Swisher]

I watched. Well, yeah, I watched that.

[Scott Galloway]

You got all angry. I thought that woman was hilarious. What was her name? Who? The comedian who came on.

[Kara Swisher]

I didn't get angry that you didn't like her. There was a huge funny. I don't think she's very funny. Whitney. Whitney Cummings. I don't think she's. I didn't get angry. I just don't think she's funny. Whitney Cummings has become increasingly unfun. I never thought she was particularly funny, but now she's deeply unfunny.

[Scott Galloway]

I love that New Year's show. I love when people drink on tv.

[Kara Swisher]

That was a good show. I have to say. The whole thing was great. He kept. Every time. Andy Cohen, when he kept Going, Eric Adams is over there, by the way. He was indicted. He kept saying, that was so fun. We should do that. We should do a new show. We should.

[Scott Galloway]

I like that.

[Kara Swisher]

I think we should do that.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm going on a thing here. I don't know if you've heard, but Surgeon General Vivek Murthy wants to put a cancer warning on alcohol, which I get.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But I'm on a pro. Like, I think if you're under the age of 30 and your liberal can process it, I think you need to drink more. All those medical doctors, those famous doctors who run Antio, they see drunkenness, I see togetherness.

[Kara Swisher]

I think that was an interesting statistic. That was. The statistics are pretty scary around breast cancer. It is around all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I'll live forever.

[Scott Galloway]

You and Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, we should go out drinking tonight and go see Wicked. I dare you. We'll take you. We'll kidnap you and make you go see Wicked.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, no, I'm down for half of that.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, on one half, look, we'll have, like, George Hahn and maybe Justin Therose sitting on one side singing. I'll be on the other side singing. I'll get someone else who knows the words. It'll be really great. It'll be fun.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, I'm doing a breathwork lesson tonight. Can you believe that I have fallen so far. I have someone coming over to teach me how to breathe better.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

I'm literally getting anxious thinking about it.

[Kara Swisher]

You hired someone to teach you to breathe?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I went to Summit, and I met this dude who seemed very groovy and chi and. And chill. And he's like. He only grabbed my hands and looked into my eyes, and he's like, I just really want to do breath work with you. And I'm like, all right, come over and we'll do breath work.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's just that, you know, it's going to be happening. Yeah, I think you're going to be having. I think you're having an experience tonight. That's what I think is going to happen.

[Scott Galloway]

You think I'm getting oral sex? Is that what you're saying?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I do.

[Scott Galloway]

Is that what you're trying to say on pivot?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think that's what's happening. But. Good.

[Scott Galloway]

You know what? Every summer solstice, you might be giving it for me.

[Kara Swisher]

It might be given.

[Scott Galloway]

Or every summer solstice, breath work.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a good euphemism for breath work.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. No, my. My, my. Kind of objectives for New Year's are relax the throat and maintain eye contact.

[Kara Swisher]

There you go.

[Scott Galloway]

Pivot from the Vox Media podcast network. Anyways, let's get up. What are we talking about?

[Kara Swisher]

We're talking about. We're talking. We got a lot to catch up on today. We've been. You have missed me so much. It's true. We've talked a lot over the holidays, actually, and there's a lot of news, including the end of net neutrality. Not as interesting. Tesla sales dropping Met as preparation for Trump Europe attacking. Elon, of course, has made a spectacle of himself. He spent new the President dancing to gay songs at Mar a Lago. It did look sad.

[Scott Galloway]

It looked so sad, didn't it?

[Kara Swisher]

That looked so sad. I was like, I didn't feel sorry for him because he's an asshole. But there's a lot going on. Let's start. Actually, there's been some major important stories happening. This is January 6th when we're taping this, which was not a day of love by any stretch when Trump lost, but he's back and he's gonna let off quite a few of those people, apparently. But first, important thing that's been out is this. For us at least. The TikTok ban. President elect Donald Trump has urged the Supreme Court to pause the TikTok ban in illegal finding. Trump said the delay would allow his administration to pursue a negotiated resolution. The Justice Department has responded by asking the court to reject the delay request. The Supreme Court has set to your arguments on the case on Friday. And I have suggested that Elon Musk is gonna try to buy it and merge it with X. And probably Larry Ellison will probably be in there. A bevy of Trump supporters will the inside track to that also. Kevin O'Leary, who I'm not a big fan of, has joined the people's bid for TikTok. It's being led by Project Liberty founder Frank McCourt to purchase the assets. I talked to one of the other people named as a bidder and he said the whole thing is ridiculous. It's not going to get sold. There's just no way. And the Chinese aren't going to allow it, et cetera, et cetera. Any thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

I wonder if nothing happens in the sense that. So I met Frank McCourt's kid or son, and he was talking about how Frank wanted this a while ago, wanted to put together a consortium. A bit on it. I don't see. I think this is a CCP influence company. I won't say controlled. I don't think the Chinese want to be forced into doing anything right now. And the idea that you and the information have floated is that Musk and Ellison will partner with the blessing of the Trump administration and Trump will try and give this to the like a gift and force the Chinese to divest it. I don't think she scares that easily. I thought that if he was able to dictate the terms of the sale and maintain some economic interests, that it might, you know, I predicted it would be divested. I think now it likely won't because I think what might happen is that the Supreme Court can rule that the banning is legitimate and uphold it. Because defense issues typically trump First Amendment issues.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they do. That's what's been for people who don't know, that's what the courts have been saying. The appeals court said that people suggest the Supreme Court will do the same thing.

[Scott Galloway]

But my understanding is Trump, in a kind of sleight of hand, could direct the DOJ and law enforcement to not punish Apple or Alphabet, who would be responsible for enforcing its removal from the app stores, and basically say, we will not prosecute you or enforce this legislation or law if you violate it and leave TikTok on these platforms. So a possibility here that's less dramatic dramatic, but increasingly likely is, you know what happens. Nothing.

[Kara Swisher]

Ah, interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, your thoughts, Kara?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know if corporations will do that. You know, interestingly, oddly enough, I think it was Andrew Jackson who didn't follow I think it was Jackson who didn't follow a rule but the Supreme Court set for Indian tribes and he just didn't enforce it. Like there is precedent for not enforcing what the Supreme Court says, which is really. It's not unprecedented, but it's very. It's not very common. I don't know if Apple and Google will go along with that because event eventually there won't be Trump. Right. And there will be lawsuits and things like that. So I'm not quite sure they will, you know, do a heh, heh, great. We don't have to do anything, you know, in the. I would suspect maybe he'll try to get Congress to pass another law that isn't a ban. Right. Like he'll just get it. It's gotta go through Congress, I think this thing. And since he has control of it, he could possibly get a new law that supersedes this law. That would be what I would imagine happening. But the fact of the matter is, I think by not enforcing it, it doesn't mean the companies won't Enforce it themselves. That's a big decision on Tim Cooks to have a wink and a nod with Trump on not being prosecuted. I don't know. I think they would listen to the Supreme Court over Donald Trump in that regard.

[Scott Galloway]

That's a fair point. But here are some numbers. So 15%, 100 million and 15 million. So 15% is the percentage of TikTok that Jeffrey Yass owns in the private market. TikTok is trading at $300 billion, and.

[Kara Swisher]

That'S low, I would imagine.

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, what's interesting is it hasn't gone down, despite the fact that it might have been sort of suppressed. But the last private round valuation was around 250, and it's actually ticked up to 300. And this guy Yass owns 15%. So he has about a $45 billion stake in this company. And here's the fun part. He and his wife donated $100 million to Republicans this past election cycle. And then the final number, Trump has 15 million followers on TikTok.

[Kara Swisher]

He loves it. He's talked about it publicly. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So people talk about the 250 million and counting that Musk gave to Trump. Well, okay, probably a close second here in terms of individuals is the guy who has a 15% stake and a lot of economic interest in maintaining TikTok's momentum. He's in for 100 million. And personally, I would imagine that Trump loves having 15 million people to communicate directly with. He's not dumb. He understands.

[Kara Swisher]

No, he says it. He said it explicitly. He loves TikTok. Now they love me on there. I'm huge. He attributed his winning to his popularity on TikTok. Not to Musk, to TikTok, which was interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

Just to remind I prefaced with Jonathan Haidt this morning. And I said, of all the platforms, what do you think is kind of the Sith Lord? What is the most dangerous? And he said, in his view, TikTok's the most addictive. And my experience with my 14 year old is that everything else is kind of, you know, meth or opiate. And TikTok is, you know, heroin. Like, it is just. I find it too. I find I can just go down a rabbit hole with TikTok.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I don't go on it because I watch it too much. I watch it. The others are already, you know, I already. Instagram is already really interesting. And I do it rather than watch television or what. Cause I like weird videos. But yeah, TikTok, I don't fire it up. I just don't. I just can't Because I know it's really addictive and I don't have an addictive personality. And it works really well on me too. And it responds to everyone in the way they like. Right. That's the thing. That's what's so powerful about it. And I don't know, I just feel like there's. I don't actually know what's going to happen here. Like what, what everybody. Because there's so many different things I would imagine if I had to guess. I think the Supreme Court will stick with national security. I think they will do that. They've done it all the time. This one seems very obvious. At the same time there are some free speechers over there like why are we doing this? But I don't think they want to be tarred with the idea that they're against national security and for China. And somehow I feel like there's some weird roll up with musk and Twitter and this and maybe true social. And Ellison's gotta be around the basket, right? Hovering around the basket. Cause he was in last round, if you recall.

[Scott Galloway]

Around the hoop. Is that your attempt?

[Kara Swisher]

Whatever. Yes, I know, okay. And I spent all Christmas with my son Alex. So I don't know. We don't know what's going to happen. That's our answer to this question. We're not sure. Very briefly, a federal appeals court has struck down the FCC's restoration of net Everything is tech and politics this year. Just so you know.

[Scott Galloway]

We should do a podcast on this.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know that. Of net neutrality rules. The decision was made by an all Republican panel. The judges ruled that the FCC does not have the authority to telecom companies from blocking Internet content or creating fast lanes accessible with fees. I mean this goes back and forth and back and forth on every administration. I've lost sight of this. What do you think the biggest consequences are here?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, to be fair, a lot of our progressive brothers and sisters hair was on fire when net neutrality was. Didn't this kind of happen a couple of years ago? And we thought it was.

[Kara Swisher]

I feel like I've been covering it since the beginning of time because the.

[Scott Galloway]

Fear is the wonderful thing about the Internet was it essentially cut out. The way I see it is one of the greatest tax cuts for consumers was to say, all right, for the people who weaponize government and figure out a way to have regulated monopolies that is a monopoly and say we're the only cable company that can offer you cable in Manhattan, which makes no fucking sense because it costs so much. They make all these arguments and they get basically a mandate to have a monopoly similar to the NFL or whoever you want to pick your favorite monopoly that's kind of quote unquote, a regulated monopoly. And net neutrality basically says, I know you don't need Comcast or you don't need an editor from the New York Times or from Fox. With net neutrality, you're Netflix and you don't even need blockbuster. Or with YouTube, you can become your own creator. With Substack, you can write your own views on net neutrality and whatever voices bubble up using this amazing means of production that's just infinitely less expensive, called the Internet. And everyone has equal access to it. And the fear's always been that large corporations who weaponize government or have more capital are just going to get preferential access or speeds, or they might throttle the bandwidth for certain organizations over the other. To be fair, those fears have not, as far as I can tell, been realized.

[Kara Swisher]

I do think it was in good faith that they tried to do this right, tried to have this done, and that these companies could have really charged way too much for some people and not enough for others, and others don't get access to it. But I think you're right. I think it's a very, very difficult things. But the question is whether the FCC has authority. And I think that's the issue is who has authority over that is to me a really interesting question for 2025 and beyond is like, there aren't really. It's not very clear which of these agencies, the fdc, the fcc, have authority over the Internet. Right. Of who should have it. And it's never been made clear.

[Scott Galloway]

But is that a bug or a feature?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. Right, exactly. But the issue is everyone else has. It's very clear where planes go, it's very clear where pharmaceuticals go. And the tech industry has no. And it has to do with the First Amendment. It has to do with a lot of things. Cause it's not just a pill, it's not just a plane. Right. It has First Amendment issues, it has political implications, it has all kinds of things attached to it. But look, this is what's gonna be for the next four years. They're not going to. Net neutrality is dead for now. Right. And I think when the Democrats get back in power, if they do, and they will eventually, or someone, the facsimile of that will, they will try to protect consumers more. That's their inclination, more than this. And these guys are like, let's let the markets figure this out in the way the market. And if one of the big companies gets screwed by any of these telco companies, there'll be other ways. But now people are getting their Internet through Starlink or they're getting it through the telcos, or they're getting it through all kinds of satellite companies, not just Starlink, but others. So I do think you're right. There's been sort of a. There has been a lot of options for people. To me, I think Internet access should be like utilities. I just feel like it's utility. It should be regulated like a utility, that everyone should have it. Like they have lights or have water or they have potus. Remember pots? Plain old telephone service. That is not happening. But to me that's how it should have been done from the start. This is a utility. Everybody gets it. The government pays for it in an.

[Scott Galloway]

Effort to sex up the story, which should be pretty easy. I remember when the South Korean government, when Squid games came out, they said basically the Internet is being stressed so much here we need to charge Netflix some sort of of carriage fee because we're literally running out of bandwidth because of download of Squid games. And by the way, I watched season two of Squid games.

[Kara Swisher]

Not watching it. I can't watch it.

[Scott Galloway]

It's really, it's really like violent and upsetting and it's addictive.

[Kara Swisher]

That guy's brilliant. That guy's. I've read all about it. I haven't watched it, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

No, it's just this notion that a media property can still basically, I mean it's broadband and. Broadband and processing power and fossil fuels. No matter how much we find produce or what kind of innovation there is, we always find ways to utilize all of that additional energy. Always. There's always more, there's more ways to arbitrage petroleum bandwidth, processing power.

[Kara Swisher]

And now AI, of course, which is raising rates all over the country. Of course.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, well that's. But that's another talk show and going back to. That's why I think nuclear is making a comeback because everyone's like, oh gosh, we're going to need a lot more energy.

[Kara Swisher]

We need a bigger.

[Scott Galloway]

The only bigger arbitrage in history other than petroleum is finding really talented young people and paying them 20% of what you pay a less talented 45 year old. That's been the biggest arbitrage in economic history. Seriously, think about it.

[Kara Swisher]

I know that.

[Scott Galloway]

I've had some time. I had a lot of free time and a lot of edibles over the holidays. And one of my big themes for 2025 is. I used to think we were in an attention economy. Now I'm totally sold on the fact that we don't. We live in an addiction economy. If you look at the 10 companies that have had the greatest stock returns over the last 10 or 20 years, they're all in the business of addiction, whether it's meta or Alphabet. And then if you look at the companies over the last 50 years that have had the greatest returns, they're really salty, sugary food companies and or tobacco companies, or they're pharmaceutical companies. So basically our entire runs on addicting people to content sugary shitty food and then treating them with GLP1 drugs or hospital systems. Every company. If you look at all the stocks that have outperformed the S and P for the last 50 years, they all have. And I think AI is the fentanyl that speedballs addiction, makes Facebook ads much better, makes TikTok much more addictive. But I had this recognition that essentially our entire economy is run on addiction.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, attention is addiction, right? Isn't it? Detention economy is aversion is a subset of.

[Scott Galloway]

But attention is a measurement for addiction. The reason why TikTok garners so much attention and YouTube does is because they have figured out a way to zero in on what hits your dopa and gets you addicted. And you'd end up spending way more time on these things than you should. And then they'll hand you over to GLP1 drugs or hospitals or high blood pressure medication or whatever it might be to try and get you off of social media, off of sugary fatty foods. But anyways, my other big, big realization was that the most valuable companies in the world culturally have one thing in common and that is they're able to attract the ultimate arbitrage. And that is a really smart, educated 24 year old who for 80, 100, 150, 200,000 will work their ass off, won't complain about not getting to see their dogs, their spouses or their kids, and do 80% of what a really talented 45 year old will do for 30% of the pay. That if you look at the most valuable companies in the world, they have a disproportionate amount of incredibly talented young people who are being arbed against 40 and 50 year olds.

[Kara Swisher]

Although they're getting old, the founders are now getting old.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but the top people always do fine, right? They can get old. But if you look at sort of upper senior management to all the way down to the workers, the arbitrage, unless you make the Jump to lightspeed by the time you're 45 is to say, and I've done it, quite frankly, at companies, I'm like, I'm consistently impressed and find, oh, this person who's 35 or 40 who's making really good money, wants to leave. And then we find some 25 year old graduate of Syracuse or Cornell and we're like, wow, they're 80% as good for 40% of the price. And you don't like to say that out loud, but the most valuable companies in the world, whether It's Goldman or McKinsey or Alphabet, they all have one thing in common. They're able to attract more of those people and engage in that arbitrage. Anyways, my. That's what I did this holiday season. What did you do?

[Kara Swisher]

I had all the kids in. In San Francisco. We did a lot of stuff. We had a lot. You were in Africa, correct? South Africa.

[Scott Galloway]

South Africa, yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, I was in San Francisco. We had a great time.

[Scott Galloway]

I win. I win.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I had a ball.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, no, no, I win. My boys, South Africa. San Francisco.

[Kara Swisher]

Lovely wife. My ex wife was there. My mother.

[Scott Galloway]

Total modern family.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I literally was. I was like, I should be a reaction.

[Scott Galloway]

Megan is not married again. She doesn't have a.

[Kara Swisher]

No, really, lady. She's single and rich. So anyway.

[Scott Galloway]

Hello.

[Kara Swisher]

Hello. Jeff was there.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah. I love Jeffrey swisher. How is Dr. Swisher doing?

[Kara Swisher]

Great. We had a great. We had a great time. We had a great time, I have to say.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. You seemed very happy when I talked.

[Kara Swisher]

To you the other night. Yeah, I really enjoy my family quite a bit. They make me laugh. And we had a lot of, like, beefs. There was a lot of beefs happening, which was good. We like a beef. We like a lot of beefs, but little beef, but nothing drastic. So anyway, let's move on to something else. I like this idea. I like this. We are gonna spin narratives all through the year. I think. I think there's a lot of narratives we're gonna spin and bring new insights to our listeners. By the way, in San Francisco, it was approached by so many people again who love our show.

[Scott Galloway]

Here we go. I was wondering how long we started patting ourselves on the back.

[Kara Swisher]

Here's why. Cause I feel like it invigorates me to go into the new year people really like and they feel good.

[Scott Galloway]

You like me. You really like me. You're like Sally Field on repeat.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no. It makes them feel good and I like that. I like the idea that we're delivering products that people like.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm doing breath work.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't believe you're doing breath work. You are. You literally make fun of liberals. And you're like. You're like a San Francisco lady person who. With yoga pants, Juicy. Why don't you wear your Juicy Couture while you're doing it?

[Scott Galloway]

I'm fighting the erectile dysfunction and the arthritis as long I need to learn how to breathe better.

[Kara Swisher]

You like an ad for a Palo Alto mother. Like, it's like just Palo Alto mother.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, you're just. You're a type and that you make fun of, which is my favorite part. You go on and on about me being like, the liberal crazy. I'm like, I would never do breath work. I think it's ridiculous. But go ahead, go for it.

[Scott Galloway]

You're a liberal. I'm crazy.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me show you how to breathe. I do it without even thinking about it. It's incredible. Here, give me $25 for that. So.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, no, it's much more expensive than that. I gotta pay this guy like, 500 bu.

[Kara Swisher]

I am certain it is. That's why I'm gonna come over and.

[Scott Galloway]

Maybe I am getting oral sex. 500 bucks.

[Kara Swisher]

I hope so.

[Scott Galloway]

Something to look forward to.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, let's get the ads.

[Scott Galloway]

I gotta get going.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no. So another thing. A cartoonist at the Washington Post has quit after a cartoon depicting billionaires, including Jeff Bezos, kneeling before President elect Donald Trump, was blocked from publication. And Telnaeus, I think that's how you pronounce it, published a sketch of the cartoon on Substack saying it was the first time a work had been rejected because of who it. She's a Pulitzer Prize winner, by the way. Amazing cartoonist. The Washington Post editorial page editor, David Shipley said the cartoon was rejected because of its similarity to columns of the paper rather than his subject. Although he managed to publish many similar columns over and over again. This is. It's nonsense what David Shipley said. And now I can say it very explicitly because Amanda quit the Washington Post. He is really. This was nonsense what he was his excuse. In other related news, Amazon has announced that it will release a behind the scenes documentary on Melania Trump by Brett Ratner, who was sucked up into the MeToo stuff rather egregiously. He seems to be a really problematic person. And the New York Times did some really astonishing coverage on his behavior. So that was nice. What do you think, Scott? You wanna buy the Washington Post with me?

[Scott Galloway]

This is such peacock. First off, if I'm gonna spend a lot of money to be put in pain. He or she better be wearing leather and be hot. I just. What are you doing anyways? No, I'm not crazy. That is literally.

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

I think I told you when I had.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm waiting to hear your feedback, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, no, I raised back in the heyday of hedge funds, I convinced a hedge fund manager to give me $600 million to become the largest shareholder in the New York Times. And I learned a decent amount about newsrooms and the collision between shareholder governance and journalism and newsrooms. And I quickly learned, or I got a very expensive lesson in the following, and that is these are important institutions. I even wonder at some point if they should have some sort of tax benefit, because I think they do a really important. They do really important work. But at the end of the day, these are institutions that should be owned by trusts, and they should have a trust that basically hires the right guy or gal to run the thing and they just stay the fuck out of it. But.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, maybe I have that idea. Maybe I'm not doing it your way. Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I know, but what I would argue. So, just to bring in the viewers, just to bring the listeners up, there's been a lot of rumors that you're assembling a group to make a bid for the Washington Post. And what I haven't heard is that Jeff Bezos is willing to sell it.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct.

[Scott Galloway]

And so all of this, in my view and is, I don't know, sort of all chip nosomes. Doesn't matter. Yeah. So we. Can we? Or when I say we, I mean you complain about the Post and the ownership, but if you, and I told you this on the phone the other night, if you were serious about doing this, you would have had offline conversations with Bezos and said, can I put together a group that includes you and gives you some shark repellent and inoculates you from this bullshit and grief, which you are probably not enjoying right now, and gives you plausible deniability where you can say, oh, it's up to the. It's kind of like what you. I think if you were serious, you have to get Jeff on board.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, Correct. This is what I'm attempting to do.

[Scott Galloway]

Try and get.

[Kara Swisher]

Again, you're not asking if I'm attempting to do this.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, right, but the way you would do this, Kara, is quietly, I think you're wrong. You're not gonna shame this guy into.

[Kara Swisher]

Stop shaming him. I actually have praised his ownership until recently. I have been very much praising his ownership until recently. I think it's much more complex. I don't think that's what I'm doing. I think there's ways to do things and calling attention to it and bringing it to the conversation. There's a lot more people than me looking at this, by the way, FYI. And I think the. Yes and the only way. And I'm meeting with everybody. This is how I'm approaching it. I'm a reporter. I was an excellent reporter. I certainly was a much better reporter.

[Scott Galloway]

But you still are an excellent reporter.

[Kara Swisher]

I am much more so than the guy who's the CEO of the company, by the way. By far.

[Scott Galloway]

You are not gonna get this thing. Shit posting.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. I don't care about the CEO. I think he. Fine, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's not shitposting. I'm telling. I'm saying what I think. That is not shit posting.

[Scott Galloway]

That was the definition of shitposting.

[Kara Swisher]

I am a better reporter. I'm sorry. It's a factual thing. So I think the way to do it is start the conversation and get it going. Rather than these. I am so. These quiet little deals that largely white men make with each other.

[Scott Galloway]

You mean deals that get done.

[Kara Swisher]

They get done. Cause it's. So I'm doing it a different way. I'm doing it a different way. I don't think that you have to, like, you know how you talk about. Try to do things differently. Try to think of new ways to do things. That's what I'm doing. I'm talking to everybody. Like, everybody. And you'd be surprised who I'm talking to, by the way. Someone who was doubtful. I had a long, long conversation with. Billionaire who was doubtful. Had a long, long conversation last night. Suddenly he's very engaged in the idea because he started to listen to the various ideas. I think it's okay.

[Scott Galloway]

What else did Mark Cuban say?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, that's not who I'm talking about. But he would be great. Someone like that. I welcome his input because I think he's really smart. I welcome the feedback of negativity that you are displaying. That's fine. That's great. I think it's good to talk to everyone and understand what the various possibilities would be. And one of the things that I think doing this thing and then we'll end this is why just talk about it explicitly. If I ran this thing, everything would be transparent. I would broadcast. You know, you have all these media reporters, like feeders, talking about what happened at A meeting. I broadcast the fucking meeting. What's the secret here? It's losing money. Here's how much money we're losing. Here's why. Here's what we invested in. Like, I think one of the reasons Pivot's successful is because we're very transparent about what we're up to most of the time. We really are. And we say when we make mistakes. I would make it public, I'd make it a narrative. I would come up with lots of ideas. And I agree with you. It's not a money making situation.

[Scott Galloway]

You do an HBO series like Drive to Survivor, behind the Music or those things where they go. They depict the season of the team Survivor.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you just make. It's a great story. And at the heart of it is something you should do.

[Scott Galloway]

I think you think those people in that institution is more interesting than it is. I think you find it fascinating. And a small group of beltway people in calorie find it interesting. And most of them find that the reporters in the newsroom are amazing at reporting and they brighten up a room by leaving it. I just don't think it's that dramatic a story.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's a great story. I think it has its hold. The Washington Post has a particular hold on this country in a way that's really wonderful in many ways. By the way, you don't think Ben Bradlee was interesting? That was so fantastic. He was such a fantastic character. Katherine Graham. I have all kinds of. Of real ideas to make it interesting. And it is actually inherently interesting. And the idea that there's one newspaper, the New York Times, and also you could do all kinds of things with papers around the. Just like, what's the fresh idea here is. All I'm going for is let. I'm open to the fresh idea of how you could save this institution in a way that is really interesting. And it doesn't. You don't have to have a foregone conclusion of every single thing. I agree. It's easier to start it from scratch. It's easier to do it by yourself. It's easier to do it very lightweight. You run all over the country without a lot of things. But this is a particular and peculiar institution I think is important. And I obviously have an emotional connection to it because I started there in the newsroom. I have it. But there really is something about. There cannot just be the New York Times. And by the way, something's gonna happen with the Wall Street Journal when Rupert goes. Who knows what goes on with that institution. Right. And then over in the west coast you got Looney Tunes. The guy who's running. That guy who seems to have. He started off a liberal, now he's a Trumper. It's like. And he's got like. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but you're defining media by the fact that it's printed on dead trees. I don't believe you're defining media. There's a lot of competition. There's a lot of.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree. I told Don Graham when I left. Why are you even printing it? This was back in the 90s. I was like, I don't even understand why you print it. I don't, actually. I still don't. So I'm just saying I think this is interesting. I find it to be like. It's an interesting puzzle to carry a Swisher. And I have a million other things I'm doing that are much more lucrative, that are much more promising.

[Scott Galloway]

Enjoy. Just be.

[Kara Swisher]

I love this.

[Scott Galloway]

You're so good. You're leaning. Just be a billionaire. Just be a wealthy lesbian. Buy like a roller derby team or something. Just.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't want to do breath work. I want to do. This is my breath work. This is my breath work.

[Scott Galloway]

Bezos gets it. You don't. He's on a fucking yacht with a woman in a G string in Saint Barts and you're talking about all this pain, self inflicted pain. You're about to go into a dentist's office and say, hold off on the Novocaine. Have you been. I mean, you've been in newsrooms, I'll give you that.

[Kara Swisher]

Arlo. I've been in all of them. I've been in all of them.

[Scott Galloway]

I can't believe you would subject yourself to that.

[Kara Swisher]

I think there's a new way. I think there's a new. Let me just tell you, this is my breath work and I'm gonna fucking do it. You literally hired someone to teach you to breathe today and you're giving me a hard time about something that is actually slightly noble even. And that's not why I'm doing it. I think it's fun. I actually. Anyway, we'll see what happens. But I predict in 2025, I will meet with Jeff Bezos or my name isn't Kara Swisher. Okay? I'm going.

[Scott Galloway]

I wouldn't put it past you. I wouldn't put it past you.

[Kara Swisher]

He's doing it. He's going to do it. And you know what? He's going to like it. He and me and Lauren and will be laughing it up on his yacht. But let me just say, I think this is fun for me. I don't know why he owns it. And I want to give him. I know. A Jeff Bezos. That's different than this. Let me say that loves a challenge. And this is the Jeff Bezos. Behaving here is not the Jeff Bezos I liked.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm sold, but I don't matter. And I. Anyways, I'm gonna give you.

[Kara Swisher]

A column, just like a video column.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm in for a dollar, and I'll come to the party in D.C. okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Here'S what I'm gonna do for you. I'm gonna strap a GoPro on your head.

[Scott Galloway]

Strap what?

[Kara Swisher]

Broadcast it.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

On a part of you. I'm gonna strap on you and I'm gonna just have Scott Galloway every day. And that's just it. That's all I'm gonna do.

[Scott Galloway]

All right. That's one of the content you had me at. Strap on. Go buy the Washington Post.

[Kara Swisher]

I shall. I'm not. You'll see. You're gonna help me. You are gonna help me. It doesn't matter. You're gonna help me. Cause I know you can't.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll save you from yourself is what I'm gonna do.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm doing just fine in all my other endeavors.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, you're doing ridiculously fine. Don't fuck it up.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not gonna fuck it up. I have plenty of energy. I have plenty of energy. Anyway. It's invigorating me, Scott. It's invigorating again. You're doing breath work. Let me do my fucking breath work and. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Tesla sales slip and Meta plays nice with Trump. What a shock.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Okay, business leaders, are you playing defense or are you on the offense? Are you just. Excuse me. Hey, I'm trying to talk business here. As I was saying, are you here just to play or are you playing to win? If you're in it to win, meet your next MVP.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

With Netsuite, you're running your accounting, your.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Working from the same numbers. With no data delays and with AI embedded throughout, you're automating manual tasks plus getting fast insights for your next move. Move. Whether you're competing on your home turf.

[Scott Galloway]

Or looking to conquer international markets, Netsuite.

[Kara Swisher]

Helps you get the W. Over 40,000.

[Scott Galloway]

Businesses have already made the move to.

[Kara Swisher]

NetSuite, the number one Cloud ERP right now. Get the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com pivot get this free guide at netsuite.com pivot okay, guys. Scott, we're back. Some troubles for Tesla. Tesla sales fell in 2024 the first year over year global sales decline since 2011, but it seems inevitable. The drop was not used about 1% but signals increasing competition from Tesla's rivals like China's BYD, which is never has newer models, lower prices and actually better cars. Tesla shares dropped 6% following the news of declining sales. But the company did end up 68% on zero economics thanks to the post election surge. And the idea that Elon Musk owns the. He kind of does. His value has gone up double from a couple hundred billion to four hundred billion right now. I'd love two things. What do you see happening with EV sales in 2025, just beyond Tesla, by the way, Rivian shares had their best day ever after the EV company reported slightly better fourth quarter car delivery data than Wall street exception. That's a beautiful car, that Rivian. I got to tell you, every time I see it I'm like, that is one hell of a looking car. Obviously the cybertruck got sucked up into that guy who killed himself, the troubled man. And that photo you posted of a photo of the cybertruck in flames in front of the Trump Hotel with the Trump brand right there. Give me your bigger thoughts on EVs and what's going on here with Tesla shares. Obviously it's a meme stock at this point.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I've just been famously wrong about Tesla stocks, so I'm loath to say anything but. But it's difficult to understand how a company is trading on every metric at a greater multiple than any other automobile or even manufacturing company. Maybe with the exception of Nvidia, which arguably is an IP company, not a manufacturing company when its sales were down year on year. Just name a tech company.

[Kara Swisher]

It's all on his friendship with Trump, right? This guy jumps from lily pad to lily pad. I've never seen somebody, someone so adept at jumping, like finding some other hand waving bullshit. And he actually has actual power. It's not like he doesn't.

[Scott Galloway]

He has actual money and you gotta give it to the guy. A lot of people have said, Scott, you're just not privy to his genius. He's playing chess, you're playing checkers. And I've got. Well, but so far they're right and I'm wrong. Because he gives a quarter of a billion dollars to Trump and his net worth after his election. Twelve weeks post his election, or excuse me, eight weeks post his election is up $150 million. So the best trade of 2024 was at $250 million. And the value, his net worth has largely been driven by the expectation and the acknowledgment that we are now in a full kleptocracy and that he will be on the right side of that because he gave a quarter of a billion dollars and it's impacting everything. Else, including this notion that TikTok will probably figure out a way to get around this because $100 million will will buy that. The EV market itself was up 24% in comparison to 2023, and yet this company was down. BYD is probably the most important manufacturing company in the world. You haven't heard of. It's now besting Tesla in terms of global sales.

[Kara Swisher]

Explain what BYD is just for people who don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, it's essentially the Tesla of China and they have figured out a way to punch out into the marketplace, you know, sands tariffs a 12 or $14,000 fairly competent EV.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I want to buy one. I see them. I think they're adorable. They look great. They look fun. They look.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, rivian was up 24% on Friday because it beat expectations. But even Rivian is probably not. Is probably subscale and can't survive on its own. When you buy a Rivian, you're basically getting 30 or $40,000 from Jeff Bezos and the shareholders of Rivian because I think they cost about 110 or 120 to produce and they sell them for 80 or 90. Rivian's production was down 13% from 2023, but still above revised production forecasts. So it's struggling. I would argue that the thing that has overperformed in the automobile market is hybrids specifically and Toyota took advantage of that. And there's still a stubborn group of people, despite everyone saying electric is the future. That really like a internal combustion engine. And so. So look, the company also announced it was free from the part shortages that plagued Q3 and forced the company to shut down assembly lines and revise down production guidance. That was Rivian again. But I've never understood the valuation on Tesla and used the word meme stock.

[Kara Swisher]

It's Elon. It's the valuation on Elon is what it is. That's all it is. Where he is in any moment in time. It has nothing to do with the system. And by the way, the car is just aren't interesting anymore. They were absolutely innovative at the time, but so many complaints. It's so clear that they haven't done anything innovative in the car space. I don't think he cares anymore. He's bored with it. Right? This is not his interest. He has other interests now, like plaguing Britain or Canada or Europe, stuff like that. He has other interests that take his time now or hanging out at Mar a Lago in the cottage. I don't get it. Neither of us get it. And nor will we comment. But as long as he's on the UPSW with Trump, it will stay that way. Correct.

[Scott Galloway]

There are two stocks where I think if they went down 50 or 60%, we would say, well, of course they did. Or actually three. I think Palantir is basically an analytics company that has this incredible storytelling CEO and this veneer of spy versus spy. And I think he's redefined investor relations as it relates to storytelling going on. Bill Maher being very kind of pro America creating this veneer. We work with the CIA and what we do, so sophisticated. I can't talk about it. I think the guy is just a masterful storyteller.

[Kara Swisher]

I think he's fascinating. Alex Karp. He really is.

[Scott Galloway]

But it's basically Gartner with cooler branding and a cooler CEO and it trades.

[Kara Swisher]

He's not going to like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, by the way, Gene hall, the CEO of Gartner, has been fantastic for shareholders.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

And a very competent CEO.

[Kara Swisher]

So you amuse me, Scott Galloway, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

But the other two, I would argue would be Nvidia. I think so many big players are coming for Nvidia. So many. Well, the deepest pocketed firms in the world are looking at this giant carcass of the GPUs, that power AI and saying, I want in. I need to take a bite of that. The biggest sharks in the world are circling this carcass. And every major company from Meta to Apple has decided we need to be in the business of making these, these chips. And so, you know, the first time there's.

[Kara Swisher]

We said that last year, commodity eventually.

[Scott Galloway]

Or a slowdown, or a slowdown in AI reduction spending, whatever it is, it does feel like it's not going to be Cisco where it goes down 90% from 99 to 2001. But if that thing got cut in half in 16 weeks, we'd all say, well, of course it did.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what you're going to see. Let me just point out with Cisco, remember when they started to do all kinds of wacky stuff like presence, like videos and stuff like that? That was the sign for me. When they came off, their main business was making them money and they started investing in all kinds of nonsense. And if you see that in Nvidia, it's a signal. Anyway, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

I was living in San Francisco. I bought the house that's next to where Mark Zuckerberg moved in. This was 99. I decided I had an existential crisis. I'm glad we can bring this back to me. And I thought I don't like San Francisco. I don't like technology, I don't like startups, I don't like VCs. I don't like being married. And I stopped all of those things and moved to New York and joined the faculty of nyu. I literally, when I think of Cisco and what happened in 99, I think of. That's when I started. I literally pressed the restart button in my entire life. Anyways, interesting. I don't know what we're talking about.

[Kara Swisher]

A story I'd never heard, but I like it. Go ahead, finish your. Okay. Nvidia.

[Scott Galloway]

Nvidia. Like, some of these can be Nvidia Palantir. And then my favorite short where I have have been wrong consistently for five years is Tesla. I just don't get it. They have some interesting products. They say, no, it's an energy company. They wrap steel around a motor and it's great steel and a great motor, but it trades at 40 times revenues versus 5. So at some point. I'm Nouriel Rovini, who has been predicting economic crises since he got his PhD.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. He's done every.

[Scott Galloway]

Every seven or 15 years. He's right.

[Kara Swisher]

He's right. Yeah, you are. You are Dr. Doom, interestingly depend on. To me, it's all the stock market of Elon Musk and Donald Trump. That's really what it is. And so, on the latest episode of on with Kara Swisher, I was talking to New York Times senior political correspondent Maggie Haberman today. She's been covering Donald Trump for years and now she's also covering Trump's bff, Elon Musk. Our lives have intersected. She talked what happens to that relationship when Trump takes office, which could be not good news for Donald Trump. Trump, let's listen. Musk comes with something that, you know, quote, unquote, President Bannon did not, which is a lot of money. And, and I think that buys him a fair amount of time. But I just think that when Trump goes to Washington and he's not sitting on the patio, you know, when Musk can walk over from, from Banyan Cottage, you know, where he's been staying, I think it's going to be tougher. Tougher for Musk. Tougher for Musk. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't think it's gonna completely change. These things are like, it's like watching shifting sands around Trump. Do you know what I mean? It's like, this one's up, this one's down, and I don't. But nobody's ever totally Out.

[Scott Galloway]

More like quicksand.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think you're right, Scott. Quicksand. I think one of the things, no one's ever out, and obviously their interests are aligned at this point. But there is a moment that Trump will, you know, once he gets into the Oval Office, it's a very different thing than being at Mar A Lago, right. Doing this weird Mar A Lago thing. And the question is what Maggie saying, which is interesting. There's a card, it's either a blue or green card that gets you instant access into the White House. Whether he gets one, whether he gets an office in the executive office building, whether he gets a West Wing office, that'll be a lot of things. And if he gets a West Wing office, the Tesla shares will go up. That's how I look at it. I don't know. We'll see.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, I don't know about you, but absolutely the most terrifying thing that I could conceive of when I was 11 was not Darth Vader, it was not Jason, it was not illness. It was quicksand. Remember all the shows that. Like Killigan's Island.

[Kara Swisher]

Killigan's Island. Oh, my God.

[Scott Galloway]

They'd be running after something or running from something, and then all of a sudden they'd look and they were sinking, and it was like, no quicks.

[Kara Swisher]

Don't move, don't move, don't move. Don't make any quick moves.

[Scott Galloway]

If you struggle, you'll go down faster. And I remember even in class, our teacher talking to us about how to survive quicksand. You swim. You don't struggle. You swim like, okay, next time I'm in quicksand. I'll remember that.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. Quicksand. I have the same memories as you. We are so united. We have so much in common. It's true. I watched the Gilligan's Island. When you said it, I had, like, Gilligan and Skipper in the quicksand.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. Where things converged in a much deeper level. As you like me, like the Barbara Eden and I dream of Jeannie.

[Kara Swisher]

We did.

[Scott Galloway]

You were feeling the same thing.

[Kara Swisher]

I was, I was, I was. I love that Barbara Eden. Anyway, so let's go on to the next thing. Meta is also making some big staffing changes, replacing President of Global Affairs Nick Clegg, the handsome British man, with Clegg's deputy and the company's most prominent Republican, Joel Kaplan, best friend to Brett Kavanaugh. Kaplan, a former advisor to George W. Bush, sparked drama at the Facebook in 2018. I remember getting frantic Calls from Sheryl Sandberg when he attended his friend Brett Kavanaugh's Senate hearing. Interestingly, Nick Clay in his statement said something that I thought I need to find him and ask him because several people who are close to him said, look at that sentence, Kara. He said clearly Kaplan is the right person for the right job at the right time. He kept saying the word right, which everyone thinks it was because Nick is too liberal. And Kaplan is one of the people who presided over removing content moderation stuff, being much more very friendly to conservatives in a way that was disturbing to people internally. All kinds of manner of nonsense that a lot of people had been pushing, that people like Clegg had in fact been pushing against internally. So what do you think has happened here? They just are picking the guy who Trump likes better. It seems like that's it, that's the game.

[Scott Galloway]

When did Nick do you know when Nick joined Facebook or when he joined.

[Kara Swisher]

Meta A while ago and then Sheryl left and he kind of got Cheryl's job I guess in a weird way, I forget. But he was sort of this like gallant British, well spoken guy who had a mixed bag of a reputation in Britain to be honest. But yeah, he's been the one who's been sort of the forward leaning person.

[Scott Galloway]

I want to preface my comment with the following. And that is Nick Clegg is the new, or was the new Sheryl Sandberg and that is he was the heat shield. He was the airbrush over a company that has done more damage and hurt more of our young people while making more money than probably any company in history. He has not served the Commonwealth well as he has done an outstanding job of delaying obfuscation and grabbed a baton from Sheryl Sandberg and figured out a way to stave off much needed regulation and pretend that they're concerned and call for regulation and manage to ensure that Facebook continues to create rage and make our discourse more coarse and make 14 and 15 year old girls much more likely to engage in self harm. So he has not done the United States of the world any favors. Having said that, what's really dangerous about Nick Clegg and Facebook in general, or Meta is that he is really fucking smart. And that is in I think about the five or six years where he got this big job, Facebook stock is up tripled. I bet he's made somewhere between 1 and $300 million and this is exactly the right time for him to leave. He's made a shit ton of money. It's a new administration.

[Kara Swisher]

He doesn't want to do this work.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, he doesn't want to hang out and be nice to Republicans. They're bringing in someone who is the Republican version of him. Him. He's got his money. He's probably going to hold onto the stock and probably I wouldn't be surprised if he announces that he's moving to Malta or the Isle of Sky or to Florida or Texas to recognize the capital gain and the options he sits on. He's a very bright guy. He did a great job in the eyes of Meta shareholders and he's smart to leave now. The stock has run up enormously. He's made a ton of money. The environment has shifted to the right. So peace be with you and pray there is no heaven or hell, boss.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, this guy Kaplan has been sort of the. He's the one most linked to misinformation, discouraging to shield right wingers from content moderation efforts around misinformation and hate speech. He really is the guy who's done this. If there's one person, I think of.

[Scott Galloway]

Him as the guy sitting behind Kavanaugh.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, he did. And that was. Oh, my God. When that happened, I remember they were like, what in the actual fuck? Because I think his wife was very good friends with his wife. That's what I recall at the time. But he was a very good friend. And a lot of people, one of the top Facebook people was like, why couldn't he just be. He was there to be supportive at his friend, I think. And of course he can't do that as the main lobbyist of Facebook in Washington. And so they were like, why can't he just go in a quiet room and pat him on the back and say, you get out there, Brett, and start yelling about whatever you want to yell about. But he didn't. He was physically behind him and it was a crisis at Facebook. Now, as usual, the Overton window has shifted rather drastically and this guy's in charge and this guy has a very MAGA friendly approach, let's just say. And I'm saying that in a. That's a polite way, smart thing to do. And so this is what he'll do. And he's had an increasing influence on Zuckerberg. Very smart guy, I would say, of all the people that when I hear about him is not positive internally, somewhat of a. He runs over things. He's not Nick Clegg in that regard. And he's very Trump friendly in a way and has moved further to the right, that's for sure. And so that's just what it is. Mark Zuckerberg is always, you know, he's always looking for his own hide. Always. There's never a moment where Mark Zuckerberg is not concerned with his own well being and this, this is what he's done. And I think he was tired of getting pilloried by Congress. He doesn't want to go to one of those meetings again. And of course they walk right into it this week with they're deleting a number of its AI generated Facebook and Instagram accounts after a backlash. In one exchange a metabot said that it perpetuates harm. Another acknowledged the use of cult leaders tactics. Instagram users also reported they were not able to block restrict report the AI characters floating this media media was. These bots is dangerous. Of course they don't give a fuck. They don't give a flying fuck. But they were trying to drive engagement doing it and that's what they're gonna do. Let me just say with this appointment, nothing's changed with Mark Zuckerberg. He's the same, same person.

[Scott Galloway]

He's a brilliant, he's a brilliant, arguably the most brilliant businessman of the last 20 years. Totally shareholder driven. And it's taken a huge toll on society, whether it's incumbent political parties being consistently booted out, which you could argue is some of that is good, but I would argue some of it the coarsening of our discourse globally. The thing that scares me the most about AI, in addition to loneliness and convincing young men they can have a reasonable facsimile of life on a screen with an algorithm, is that you have an economy or you have a society now where the primary arbiters of expertise and knowledge are LLMs that are crawling the online world, which is increasingly coarse, ugly, ugly and prone to misinformation because it drives shareholder value. And all you need to do, and one of the reasons I decided to come down and do this podcast in person is, and it's sort of sad, I find people in general are just lovely. Whenever I go out into the wild of the world, people are just so nice, so thoughtful. I mean occasionally someone cuts you off in traffic or whatever or whatever it might be. But in general, general, I'm looking at this handsome kid with a beard in the control room and I think he just looks like a nice man and he's nice and it's nice to see him. And if I had him on Zoom or it just wouldn't. I don't feel the same level of connection with people. And unfortunately LLMs aren't crawling that they're crawling a world of coarseness, misinformation and rage as brought to you by the algorithms at Alphabet and Meta. And it has done tremendous damage to our society and they don't want to.

[Kara Swisher]

Take responsibility for it. He's the most dangerous person in the world who doesn't even know it, who doesn't think he is, and he feels mad when you question him. And so this is a big fuck you to everybody, this move. It just is. That's what it is. And he doesn't care anymore. And now he wants to wear his chains and his hairstyle and he wants to upload fun bags video he puts up there. Whatever, whatever. Good luck, Mark.

[Scott Galloway]

Do jiu Jitsu. But I mean, going back to the inauguration, if you don't believe we've gone full kleptocracy. Bezos, Bezos, Satya, Nadella, Cook, all these people, all of them are donating a million dollars plus to Trump's inauguration. You don't think this is a fucking kleptocracy?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no. It's literally like, have you ever been to an Italian wedding where people walk up to the mobster's daughter and put money in this little sack she has on her arm? I'm like, this is like the wedding I went to.

[Scott Galloway]

And what I don't get is. And again, I have a bias here, but I think one of them would garner so much affection if they just said, I'm not going to be a part of this.

[Kara Swisher]

Fuck you.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't. I'm sorry, folks, I'm not going to be a part of this. Pay to play. And instead they've all done the math and they're smarter than me and they've said, no, just hold your nose, give a million bucks and say that he's matured or he seems calmer now. It just, it's so, it's gross.

[Kara Swisher]

They really are like, that's the. When I saw the picture of Musk at the New Year's, I was like, you're the richest man in the world and this is what, you're wearing, like an ill fitting tuxedo and you're doing YMCA with Trump at a tacky, tacky, like, I'm sorry to be in a leak, but that is a fucking tacky place.

[Scott Galloway]

Like, I'm gonna start offering classes on how to have a midlife crisis.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I just ask you, if you are the richest fanboy, what would your New Year. I literally hire Beyonce.

[Scott Galloway]

What would my New Year's be It'd be what it is. I'm either in South Africa about to go on a safari with my kids and my nephews and nieces, or in Cape Town, or I'm in St. Barts with ridiculously hot people who, you know, want to give me breath lessons for. Laugh at. That's how you roll.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the craziest thing you'd buy at New Year's if you. I would buy Beyonce, like, or whatever, and Taylor Swift. I give them an untold amount of money. This is what you do for fun. Like, Are you kidding me?

[Scott Galloway]

You're singing YMCA next to Steve Bannon.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. And one of the. I don't think he was invited, but one of the. Which I'd rather be with Steve Bannon, honestly. I hate to say that, but. And you could also do what guess who Mackenzie Bezos is doing, which is give away billions and billions and billions to people to help them.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, but her gifts are concerning.

[Kara Swisher]

Concerning. Fuck you.

[Scott Galloway]

That makes sense.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, God, I'd totally hire Beyonce. That's what I would do. I think I would. I would. I swear. I don't know what else I'd do.

[Scott Galloway]

I'd hire Emily Ratajkowski from Bradford. No, that's wrong. That's wrong.

[Kara Swisher]

You take that back.

[Scott Galloway]

That's wrong.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, Mark, you really cease to not surprise us. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for Pivot comes from Delete. Deleteme. The personal data that you enter online every day. It might be worth more than you think. Data brokers can make a profit off of selling it, which can lead to phishing, identity theft, endless spam calls. But you can help protect your data with Delete Me. When you sign up for Deleteme, you can see exactly what information you want deleted, and their experts take it from there. Deleteme sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what information they found, where they found it, and what they removed. I've tried Deleteme myself, and I'm honestly so shocked by how much information there is about me out there. And I am a very big privacy nut. I know all about how the tech works. And so it's pretty shocking that they could get me so badly. And some of the people that have it, I mean, just these companies, I don't know who they are. This is one way of getting especially the more pernicious stuff off the Internet. You can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount. For our listeners today, you can get 20, 20% off your delete me plan. When you go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot code pivot. It's a new year. Maybe you're taking a month off from drinking, you know, dry January, and maybe you're replacing it with something else. Puff, puff, pass. Something like one in five people who do dry January say they're smoking weed instead. And more Americans are now smoking weed daily than drinking daily. Current president is into it.

[Scott Galloway]

No one should be in jail merely for using or possessing marijuana.

[Kara Swisher]

Period. Future president is into it. I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing.

[Scott Galloway]

Amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

The medical marijuana failed. President and former prosecutor was down to clown. People shouldn't have to go to jail for smoking weed. Even health conscious brain worm guy likes it.

[Scott Galloway]

My position on marijuana is that it.

[Kara Swisher]

Should be federally legalized. Everyone's getting down with pot, but legislatively, we're still stuck with a hot mess in the United States today. Explained.

[Scott Galloway]

Wherever you listen, come find us.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. There's so many. Would you like to go first or.

[Scott Galloway]

I can you go first, Kara?

[Kara Swisher]

All right. I'm gonna do a couple different things. Cause first of all, TV show, no Good Deed. Lisa Kudrow and Ray Romano and this amazing cast. I can't name them all it is. So I watch a lot of these things on Netflix and I think Ray.

[Scott Galloway]

Rano or Ray Romano.

[Kara Swisher]

Ray Romano. He's amazing.

[Scott Galloway]

He's great.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. This one was the most delightful series. Often I watch stuff on Netflix and it doesn't. It kind of falls apart in a way. This does not. This delivers. It's so incredibly funny and incredibly dark. And Lisa Kudrow is a national frigging treasure. Like Gene Smart. Same thing. National treasure. But everybody in this is a great. There's a guy who. I don't even know who he is. He plays a real estate agent who's delightful. It's about a couple selling their house in Los Angeles. Very lovely house that everybody wants and all the various people that are trying to buy it. And it is such a pleasure to watch. We binge watched it. So, so, so good. Like, really good. And the second one was Demi Moore's speech. I think you noted it, Scott, at the Golden Globes. What a great speech. I thought that was really. She could have gone off in lots of directions. She's won her first award ever and she talked about the judgmentalness of Hollywood, which isn't new to anybody. But I thought she did in a way that didn't seem scolding or tsking or high handed or self righteous. I thought she did a very honest speech about calling her the popcorn actress and had never. I thought it was a very genuine speech from her and I really appreciate it. And I thought Nikki Glaser did a great job by the way, in that. And then my wins. Mackenzie. It's all women. Mackenzie Bezos once again, she shows them how it's fucking done. Along with the last person, which is, I think it's Keir Starmer who's head of Britain. Musk is putting out all kinds of information across Europe. Really dangerous stuff, including about these weird grooming teams or whatever. It's all nonsense. And Keir Starmer did a speech that you should listen. I put it up several different places that was so good and so smart. I'm not sure it'll work. Cause I think Musk's toxic nonsense works really well, unfortunately. But boy did he. If you're talking about all these people giving a million dollars to. To people, I would say this speech was exactly right. He handled it really well. And putting yourself in the crosshairs of Elon Musk is not a great place to be these days. So that is again my win. And my fail is the opposite side of this. All these people who continue to be as craven and grasping and desperate when they own the world. And it's really a disappointment to see them doing it. I know why they're doing doing it. I get their ridiculous. I've heard their explanations because I've talked to a number of them. But honestly, you're really just terrible people. You have no backbone whatsoever. And I get why you're doing it, but I don't really care. I don't really care. I have no time for you anyway. Your turn, Scott.

[Scott Galloway]

So my fail is I don't know him well, but I had, I think I had drinks or dinner with him. A guy in London named Sriram Krishnan from Andreessen Horror. Hang on.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, hang on.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I do.

[Scott Galloway]

And I've. I'm more rewarded about this. I found him to be thoughtful and insightful and understood technology. And he's 39 and he was appointed to this AI committee. And immediately some of the MAGA folks came out with I thought was just some pretty vile shit about. Was filed that, oh, they're indentured servants taking us jobs. And just a little bit about.

[Kara Swisher]

He's an immigrant. Just for people who don't know. He's a longtime technology person around Silicon Valley. I'm not as enamored with his skills, but he's a lovely guy.

[Scott Galloway]

I was very impressed with him, and I merely thought, okay, this guy's totally out of place in this administration because he's credentialed and smart and qualified, which makes him an anomaly. However, what was kind of on point for this administration was the immediate ridiculous, racist, xenophobic bullshit that came out. And just a quick primer on Indian Americans and Indian immigrants. It would be hard to think of a substance that has created more economic value and ultimately more American jobs and more prosperity for Americans than people from India who have immigrated to America. On average, they make twice what Americans do. And they're half as likely to need government resources. They're twice as likely to get bachelor's degrees. I see this firsthand at nyu, and I don't know how to do this without doing identity politics, but they're just so fucking impressive. We get the most impressive people from India, or many of them decide to come be academics 100. If America were a sports team and we had access to the best farm team in the world, and for some reason they kept wanting to come play for us, and then we are so fucking stupid we decide to disparage them. This is arguably. If immigration is the secret sauce of America, the secret of our secret sauce is Indian Americans. And this is just. I understand people's concerns about immigration policy. It has not been handled well. There are real concerns, valid concerns about a nation without borders. I get it. India and immigrants from India have been a gift to America and Americans. And this administration shows its worst side and was surprised by it. And arguably its best side. Kudos to the AI people that said, we should have this guy involved. And then immediately, immediately the MAGA crew goes and starts saying that they're indentured servants coming here against their will and taking American jobs. They're creating American jobs, folks. They're making you richer. They're taxing our social services less and paying more taxes on average than Americans.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, Scott, they're racists. They're racist. I don't know what to say. It was just racism. Like, incredible. My issue with Shiram is he kisses up to people. I just like, I was just Saying with the previous, he does a lot of kissing up to people.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, he's 39 and he's trying to make a good living. I was kissing a lot, lot of ass when I was 39. Not doing as much breath work, but I was kissing a lot of ass.

[Kara Swisher]

I understand.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyways, I actually sent him a text. I don't know him well. And I'm saying, I am just so sorry on behalf of America that you would have to endure this bullshit. Anyway, my win, because I don't think we had a chance to talk about it is the life of James Earl Carter.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow. Why didn't we say something? Yes, you're right.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, we've been kind of out of. We've been out of commission for a couple of weeks while you hang out with ex wives and I hang out with the big Five in Cape Town or just outside of Cape Town. But I'm struggling. I'm writing this book on masculinity and people constantly ask me, what are great role models for masculinity? And you first have to think about, well, what does masculinity mean? It's a social construct anyways. But I think James Earl Carter is a really nice role model for young men. So born to a very middle class family, decided to join the Navy and serve as country. Country where he went on to get a graduate, he was a submariner. Then went on to do graduate work in nuclear physics. Became an entrepreneur, took over a peanut farm that was sort of meddling, turned it into a robust economic enterprise. Married for 77 years. 77 years. And served his country in a variety of capacities, including running as kind of an outsider for governor of Georgia. Successful presidential election on the heels of the imperial impeachment of Nixon and then kind of the overhang on Gerald Ford. Kicked out of office for a variety of reasons, some his fault, some not his fault. And really went on to identify and really set an example for losing presidency after one term, in many ways is kind of the ultimate flex fail. And that is okay, you made it to presidency, but it's always stained by the fact that people decided to kick you out after one term. But what I think he taught or the role model I take from him is that after what must have been the most crushing disappointment for a career that had only been upward, he went on to redefine the post presidency. And while I actually think George W's done a nice job as a post president, I think Clinton's been a little bit haunted and has been too focused on money. Although I think the world of him. Carter was next seen building houses for poor people with his wife. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Habitat for Humanity.

[Scott Galloway]

That's what he decided to do. And also continued to teach, I believe, well into his 90s. Sunday school.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. And peace. He did a lot of peace initiatives throughout.

[Scott Galloway]

Little Nobel Prize winner.

[Kara Swisher]

He's such a great guy. Such a great guy.

[Scott Galloway]

And the speech. I went back and looked at some of his speeches. He had this incredibly prescient speech that was somewhat chilling. And in it, he said. Said I liked him because he occasionally gave America a talking to, as opposed to saying a great American. He occasionally said, no, you got this wrong. And one of those talks, he said something really powerful and was so well ahead of his time. And that is, he said that Americans are no longer evaluated based on what they do, but what they own. And he saw the idolatry tree of money coming down the pike. And he was. Because things were different then. It used to be if you were a good athlete, a nice man, strong, kind, in the army, in the Navy, a cop, a fireman, interesting kind, went to church, faithful. Those were the assets of character. And now, at the end of the day, you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want as long as you have money. And money has replaced character. And he saw that coming. He was actually pretty well ahead of his time in terms of understanding human nature.

[Kara Swisher]

Good guy, good man.

[Scott Galloway]

And married for 77 years. And the reason why I think his passing is getting so much attention is not only because of him, but specifically the contrast of one president leaving and one president reentering the White House.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, that's really interesting. See, that's what I think. Our country loves Jimmy Carter in a way they don't realize deep in its heart. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, like, he resonates, by the way, I would recommend, just for people who don't know, there's a really great CNN documentary called Jimmy Carter Rock and Roll President. And it's all about his music. How he used the Allman Brothers and. And Willie Nelson, and he affiliated with them, even though there was criticism around their weed smoking and things like that at the time, which was shocking at the time. But it's a wonderful way to listen to music and learn about the heart of this man. I think you would love it, Scott. It's called Rock and Roll President.

[Scott Galloway]

I like it. I'll look for it. Yeah, yeah. After I see Wicked with me. You see, and also my other win, Kara and I said this to you the other day. On the phone. I don't know what happened over the holidays. You seem very happy and optimistic. I think that's nice. I'm glad for you.

[Kara Swisher]

That's because I'm doing my breath work at the Washington Post. Yeah, fuck you, Jeff Bez.

[Scott Galloway]

Now that's what the Post is.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me help you. Anyway, I love that. I love Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter is the best. Truly the best. Really the best of us, right?

[Scott Galloway]

100%. Nice to hear.

[Kara Swisher]

100%.

[Scott Galloway]

Great love affair, great public.

[Kara Swisher]

Roslyn. I love that Roslyn, too. I always like, I was just. I went to the White House at Christmas. I went to see. Because I'm not getting in there for a couple more years. Although I have been in the Trump White House. I saw the Rosalynn Carter portrait. All the portraits of the first ladies are lovely, actually. But I remember staring at hers for a while. I just think she was so quiet and so under appreciated as a first lady. I think she had such dignity and honor and kindness that she exuded this portrait in the White House really exudes it. And everyone looks at Michelle Obama one cause it's such a beautiful portrait. But I just love that Rosalynn car. And I explained it to Clara, who she was and stuff. All right, Scott, I don't want to keep you from your breath, work and everything else you're doing. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. Okay, Scott, that's the show. Our first one for 2025. I think it was a very good one. And I missed you. I missed you. I missed you. I said that to you. I called him and told him that. We'll be back on Friday with more with our special guest. We have a new way. We're gonna be doing some things around here, but we have a special guest, Bill Maher. We're gonna do it in a special new way and we're gonna argue all over the place, which will be really fun. I'm excited for 2025. I'm excited to be back with Scott and I'm so excited for our listeners. I hope you enjoy this show and I hope you enjoy them all year. Scott, please read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Silverio, Dan Schulan and Kate Gallagher. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to this show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Submariner, Sunday school teacher, married for 77 years. Rest, rest in peace. James Earl Carter.