Market Meltdown, Tariff Winners and Losers, and TikTok Deadline Delayed

Summary

Pivot Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Market Meltdown, Tariff Winners and Losers, and TikTok Deadline Delayed
Host/Authors: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Release Date: April 8, 2025
Podcast Network: New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network

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Introduction

In this episode of Pivot, tech journalist Kara Swisher and NYU Professor Scott Galloway delve into the tumultuous landscape of the US economy, exacerbated by recent tariff implementations under President Trump. The discussion navigates through the repercussions of these tariffs on the stock market, big tech companies, and international trade relations, culminating in the delayed deadline for TikTok's operational status in the US. Their candid conversation is peppered with sharp insights, humorous exchanges, and critical analyses of current economic policies.

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Market Meltdown and Tariff Instability

The episode kicks off with a vivid portrayal of the recent volatility in US markets. Following the announcement of Trump’s tariffs, the Dow and S&P 500 witnessed a dramatic plunge, with a market value loss totaling approximately $6 trillion. Scott Galloway emphasizes the severity of the situation, stating:

• Scott Galloway [15:00]: "The two day drop wiped out $31 billion in net worth for Elon Musk, $23 billion for Jeff Bezos, and $27 billion for Mark Zuckerberg."

The tariffs, deemed poorly structured and reactionary, have not only destabilized the stock market but also heightened fears of an impending recession. Goldman Sachs has alarmingly raised the probability of a US recession to 45%, with notable economist Larry Summers condemning the tariffs as a "self-inflicted wound" on the economy.

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Impact on Big Tech

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the detrimental effects of tariffs on major technology firms. Companies like Apple, Meta, and Amazon have borne the brunt, experiencing substantial declines in market capitalization:

• Scott Galloway [18:36]: "For every billion dollars in reductions in trade of Tesla, we lose $8 billion in market cap, they lose $77 million."

Galloway expounds on how tariffs increase the cost of goods, making products like the iPhone less competitive globally. He forecasts a potential $3,500 cost for an iPhone if produced domestically, compared to the current $1,300, which could lead to a 30-40 billion dollar reduction in Apple’s revenues alone.

Moreover, he underscores the significant disparities in valuation between US and international companies, attributing higher P/E multiples to the robust US brand, rule of law, and entrepreneurial culture. The erosion of these factors due to inconsistent policies could result in a drastic re-rating of the S&P 500 from a multiple of 26 down to approximately 15.

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Winners and Losers from Tariffs

The conversation shifts to identify the beneficiaries and casualties of Trump's tariff policies. While big tech giants suffer, industries reliant on high-margin, high-value exports from the US are somewhat insulated. However, the overall impact remains overwhelmingly negative, with multinational trade disruptions fostering economic uncertainty.

• Kara Swisher [22:05]: "Why don't they buy American cars? Because Toyotas are better, you dumbass."

This exchange highlights the misguided rationale behind protective tariffs, emphasizing that consumer preferences and global competitiveness cannot be coerced through policy alone.

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TikTok Deadline Delayed

A pivotal segment addresses the postponement of the TikTok operational deadline in the US. Originally slated for enforcement within a specific timeframe, the deadline has been delayed for a second time due to failed negotiations between Oracle, Blackstone, and Andreessen Horowitz following Trump's tariff announcements.

• Scott Galloway [44:55]: "President Trump delayed the ban on TikTok for 75 days for a second time. How ridiculous."

Galloway criticizes the administration's handling of the situation, suggesting that the delay only serves to undermine national security objectives and inadvertently benefits Chinese interests by providing more time for TikTok to entrench itself in the US market.

Kara Swisher concurs, expressing skepticism about the potential effectiveness of future negotiations and the overall strategic missteps.

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Economic and Political Ramifications

The duo delves deeper into the broader implications of Trump's economic policies, particularly focusing on the erosion of the US's position in global trade and the internal economic discord. Galloway warns of a "multiple contraction" in the US stock market, where even well-performing companies face declining stock prices due to falling P/E ratios.

• Scott Galloway [27:08]: "The biggest beneficiary of global trade over the last 30 or 40 years has been the US because the products we export are high margin, high value."

He laments the administration's disregard for the fundamental benefits of free trade, emphasizing that the protectionist approach is counterproductive and detrimental to the nation's economic prosperity.

Kara Swisher adds to the critique, highlighting the inconsistency and unpredictability of Trump's policies, which breed uncertainty among investors and undermine business confidence.

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Investor Advice Amidst Turmoil

Addressing the concerns of listeners grappling with investment decisions amidst market instability, Scott Galloway offers pragmatic advice:

• Scott Galloway [22:05]: "What to do as an investor? Nothing."

He advises against making hasty decisions driven by emotion, advocating for diversification and a long-term perspective. Galloway emphasizes the importance of not reacting impulsively to market fluctuations, which could lead to significant financial losses.

Further, he recommends considering diversification into international markets to mitigate the risks associated with US-specific economic policies, suggesting that a balanced portfolio incorporating European and Asian stocks could provide better stability.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a somber reflection on the state of the US economy and the dire consequences of misguided tariff policies. Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway underscore the critical need for coherent and strategic economic policies that prioritize long-term stability over short-term political gains. Their discourse serves as a cautionary tale about the pitfalls of protectionism and the paramount importance of maintaining robust international trade relations.

• Kara Swisher [57:47]: "We have no ability to say we're good people if we're doing things like that."

This powerful closing statement encapsulates their concern over America's moral and economic trajectory, urging a reassessment of policies that jeopardize both economic prosperity and ethical standing on the global stage.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Scott Galloway [15:00]: "The two day drop wiped out $31 billion in net worth for Elon Musk, $23 billion for Jeff Bezos, and $27 billion for Mark Zuckerberg."
• Scott Galloway [18:36]: "For every billion dollars in reductions in trade of Tesla, we lose $8 billion in market cap, they lose $77 million."
• Kara Swisher [22:05]: "Why don't they buy American cars? Because Toyotas are better, you dumbass."
• Scott Galloway [27:08]: "The biggest beneficiary of global trade over the last 30 or 40 years has been the US because the products we export are high margin, high value."
• Scott Galloway [44:55]: "President Trump delayed the ban on TikTok for 75 days for a second time. How ridiculous."
• Kara Swisher [57:47]: "We have no ability to say we're good people if we're doing things like that."

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This episode of Pivot offers a critical examination of current economic policies and their far-reaching implications, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities shaping today's market dynamics.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

This podcast is supported by Google. Hey Dave, here from the Google Gemini team. We're upgrading Deep research with Gemini 2.0 flash thinking. Think of it as a research assistant that does the browsing for you. I use it to get up to speed on any topic fast with a multi page report and audio overview generated in just minutes. And it shows its reasoning and sources beyond just the info. Smarter, faster research. Try out Deep Research with [e-mail] support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade, you can dive into the market with Easy use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. You can get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's just a quick jaunt or a long journey, Chevy's all electric Equinox EV has you covered with a massive 17.7-inch diagonal touchscreen. And starting at around $34,995, you can hit the road and still afford snacks. Equinox ev, a vehicle you know, a value to expect and a dealer right down the street. You can go EV without changing a thing. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, that's unfair. They'd fuck their mothers for a nickel. I think that's more accurate.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher in my new studio, without books behind me, but they will have them. Here I am. Scott. How do I look?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God. Could you be any more? Well, you're apologizing for not having books behind you.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I'm gonna have awards. My many awards is what I'm gonna have.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Do you like my new studio? It's in my house.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm not sure I like the red chair, quite frankly.

[Kara Swisher]

Really? Why? Does it upset you? Does it threaten you?

[Scott Galloway]

No, it takes me back to an era. I think you've. I think you've turned the page on the red chair.

[Kara Swisher]

I like it. For now. I'm going to leave it because it upsets you.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Upsets and disturbs you. You mean it's like retro or that I should. It reminds you of Walt Mossberg, who I just had lunch with.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I love Walt. I just think you've moved on. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

What colored chair should I have with you in the Scott era? Plaid?

[Scott Galloway]

No. I don't know. Black.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to put your blanket that I stole from the Fife arms for your birthday. I'm going to put it.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, good. That'd be nice.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll put that on. Okay, next. All right, I'll put it. I'll drape it. I'll drape a Scottish. A Scott Scottish thing on it and do it.

[Scott Galloway]

I think it reminds us how old you are.

[Kara Swisher]

But anyways, literally right out of the gate. Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Out of the gate.

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Hello.

[Kara Swisher]

You were on your college tour. Tell me. But you were away last week. We had lovely guest hosts with Jen Psaki and John Lovett. They were great.

[Scott Galloway]

Jen, Saki. Those are. Those are both great.

[Kara Swisher]

They are great. They were very.

[Scott Galloway]

I'd like to be friends with both of them. They'd like. They'd be fun to roll with.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll see about that.

[Scott Galloway]

She's interesting and attractive and he's interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

Really? Okay, sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Sorry, John. Anyway, who's the handsome one whose name is all of them?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, Jon Favreau is who you're thinking.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, he's dreamy. Yeah, that dude's dreamy.

[Kara Swisher]

I think Jon Levitt's adorable.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, he's good looking.

[Kara Swisher]

He was on Survivor. Do you know he was on the show Survivor?

[Scott Galloway]

He was on Survivor. He's way too smart and overthought. He's out in the second round.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he was out.

[Scott Galloway]

That guy's too.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't want to.

[Scott Galloway]

That guy's. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm voting John off the island. Okay, college tour. Back to me, a college tour.

[Kara Swisher]

Tell me about the Colle tour because I really don't want to talk about White Lotus in any way.

[Scott Galloway]

So eight schools in five days. Seven straight days of full parenting. Cleared everything. Didn't talk to anybody. I only talked to you once. If that. It was about the college tour we went to. I like to personify everything and just so I can make sure my kid gets into none of them. I'll personify each of them. So the first one we did was uw, University of Wisconsin, Madison. Yeah. When I was at ucla, the fraternity next to mine was the Phi Caps. And the Phi caps were basically these White dudes from small towns who abused substances, who did really well on the sat. Okay, that is the University of Wisconsin Madison. Except it's a girl who wears too much makeup, who really likes makeup and. But they're doing their job. Actually, UW Madison. I rag a lot on higher education. They're doing their job. They let in a shit ton of kids. It's crowded. They have money, but it's not the Ritz Carlton Madison. They get it. You know, they got the assignment. I felt really good. I actually met with someone there just so I can. Virtue Signal. They do this amazing program where they train prisoners or they educate. They do classes at local prisons. I'm giving some money to it. They're doing their job. I was really impressed with them.

[Kara Swisher]

So you like them, but you just insulted them. So your son's not getting in there now. But go ahead, move along.

[Scott Galloway]

There we go. Thanks for that. And then we went to Chicago. Chicago's a dude University of.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what you're called.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, UChicago. I did a session there in the Institute of Politics with David Axelrod.

[Kara Swisher]

He's great.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Which is available on YouTube. And imagine a guy in a park. They're one of two things. They either win a Nobel Prize. Everyone who goes there either wins a Nobel Prize or ends up in a park without shoes, feeding pigeons and speaking to themselves. I mean, these people are. I can't imagine people I would rather not party with than anyone who went to the University of Chicago. Having said that. Having said that, Anyone that interviews with me that went to the University of Chicago. Automatic hire. Because they're self hating. They work all the time. They're brilliant, mildly depressed. Perfect employees. Perfect employees.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's move it through. Okay, Keep going.

[Scott Galloway]

Northwestern.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

This is the gay son we all want.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, okay.

[Scott Galloway]

This is.

[Kara Swisher]

You can write a college tour book.

[Scott Galloway]

This is stylish. Impressive.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Good in theater, but also like takes AP everything and does well and it's the most. There is clearly so much money there. It is such a beautiful campus.

[Kara Swisher]

It is.

[Scott Galloway]

But the lake is just sitting there going, oh, bitch, I'm going to make it so cold. About three months a year, you may think. Three months a year. Oh my God, you can just feel the wind. Can feel Mother winter and the wearer going, oh, just wait and see what I'm going to do to you. Then we went to Michigan and saw my son. Your son is Michigan personified.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no, you better be careful because he loves you and I'm his mom.

[Scott Galloway]

Imagine you're a Power forward and work out all the time and a nice kid. And you also get 11 million on the SAT. They're like these kids are Michigan. Michigan is one of the schools. It's arguably the best public school in the nation. Maybe tied with Berkeley, but you can go super deep on social or you could literally try and split the atom at the building next to the cafeteria.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, right.

[Scott Galloway]

You could go deep either way. They're I think Michigan and it's a big school. I like school. I like to call out schools that are doing their job. They're letting they're this. They're living up to their mission. They're trying to keep tuition reasonable. It's not inexpensive but educating a lot of kids. They're doing their job and it's a really impressive place. And also you can go deep in sports. Your son saved the day.

[Kara Swisher]

What happened?

[Scott Galloway]

It's storming about 300 people by the way. We show up at. We've been doing all these tours by the way. Easy law. It should be a law punishable by death. No parent should be able to ask a question in the fucking parents teacher in the tours. They all. I was so triggered. None of the students could ask a question because the over parenting. And get this the highlight. This is a true story. University of Chicago. University of Chicago. Three women, three moms asked the same question sequentially about safety on campus. The threat to an 18 year old freshman on college campuses is dwarfed by the suicidal ideation of overprotection of parents that don't prepare them for the fucking real world. Moms asking questions at parent teachers.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think they should ask questions. Then I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

Parents at college tours are a bigger threat to your kids safety.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, okay. Moving along. So Alex took you on a tour. I understand.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. Anyway, so we get there, they canceled the tour. The weather was so bad, they're like we're canceling the tour. So you have 100 kids and 200 Karens parents just sitting in the hallway. So I text Alex and he's like, yeah, come to the house. We showed up. Imagine you're an animal living inside a trash dumpster. And it had Greek letters on the side. It smells like old beer. Old beer. There's shit everywhere. And by the way, it's much nicer than my fraternity. And it sees kids playing foosball. Some are in suits, some are studying physics. There's a way.

[Kara Swisher]

He said you liked it. He said you seemed to enjoy being there.

[Scott Galloway]

It took me back. I lived in my fraternity for four years. And my girlfriend wouldn't come over. And I'd say, why wouldn't you come over? And she said, it smells like cum. I don't want to come over. So I came up with a business idea. I came up with a business. I'm going to start a candle, and it's either stale beer or cum. I think it would work.

[Kara Swisher]

There were only four colleges in here. Alex gave you a tour.

[Scott Galloway]

That's my Senechiano. He saved the day. Oh, I'm sorry. Alex saved the day. And then Alex said, no problem. Come out of fraternity. We cruised around his fraternity. My son just got the biggest kick out of a fraternity. And then he took us on this, like this, like, I don't know, Cliff Notes tour of Michigan and then took us for lunch. He literally. Alex saved the day. We were in a typhoon with a parent, teacher comp or a tour canceled. And Alex did this whirlwind. He saved the day. And my son is very impressed, very impressed by Alex. He couldn't have been nicer, more generous. Not easy for a kid to just take two or three hours out of his day. Anyways, thank you, Alex Fisher. And then we went to Boston College, which we were really impressed by. I say that was the biggest surprise of the upside. But it is sort of a. It's a fallen Catholic. It's a kid that used to go to church, and by the 11th grade he's selling dope out of his RAV4.

[Kara Swisher]

Is that the AOC college or did she go to Boston University?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, AOC went there.

[Kara Swisher]

I feel like Boston University is where she went.

[Scott Galloway]

It's a contradiction. It looks like these kids are waiting to get home and light up and maybe start doing some. Doing some beer bongs. But there's sisters everywhere. I did not. I still haven't figured out what's going on there, but it's a really impressive. I was really pleasantly surprised. We then went to. We then went to uva. I want to go to uva. I think it's the most beautiful campus in the nation. I think if we want to restore prosperity and mating, I think men and women should each get a number. And whatever the number is, that's you get married on the spot on the lawn. Everyone there is nice. Everyone there is good looking. Everyone is there is impressive. Just marry them all off. They should all just marry each other. They're never going to find a talent pool like that in the architecture. And then we went to unc. And the terrible thing about teenagers is they start getting these terrible things called Opinions. We got to UNC and my son was like a dog off a leash in the park. He just started running around and going in buildings and something happened at unc. UNC is basically the hottest, smartest person or the hottest, most, the most popular kid in class at all. UNC schools have one thing in common. They leave North Carolina. The second hottest, most impressive person goes to unc.

[Kara Swisher]

Great school. They're just great vibe.

[Scott Galloway]

It's just got a great vibe.

[Kara Swisher]

Great vibe.

[Scott Galloway]

A great vibe.

[Kara Swisher]

Another school people love the two schools where they talk about it to this day is UNC and Michigan. They love their schools. They love their schools.

[Scott Galloway]

Kara, I'm not exaggerating and I'm a little bit scared to say this. I don't think it'll impact anything. He walked to the top of the stairs. I couldn't tell the difference between UNC and UVA, except UVA looks like it has 50 or 60 wealthier donors. It's a little newer, it's a little shinier, but they look like the same school to me. He walked to the top of the stairs, he turned around and he looked out over the quad and he goes, this is my school.

[Kara Swisher]

No, see, you know it. All right, well, don't say anything.

[Scott Galloway]

And all I could think about 8% out of state admissions rate. I don't know if it's your school.

[Kara Swisher]

You need to move to North Carolina. That's what you need to do.

[Scott Galloway]

I literally chat GPT that how do you establish North Carolina residents? It's not, it's not easy. You actually have to live there anyways. It's two Republicans, but the governor's a great guy.

[Kara Swisher]

The governor's really. I'm going to stop your college tour now because we're dead. It's in good. I'm glad.

[Scott Galloway]

That's my college tour next week.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. We have a lot to. By the way. When you were gone, things happened, my friend. Lots of things happened.

[Scott Galloway]

Really. The world kept spinning.

[Kara Swisher]

The world did not keep spinning. Spinning. The world is crashing. We're on a. Let's get right in. Let's get in. The US markets are on a roller coaster as we record Monday morning following an epic two day dive last week. Epic in a bad term that destroyed $6 trillion in market value thanks to Donald Trump's tariffs, which seem like inane in the way they were formulated. US stocks tumbled at the opening bell today, briefly surged following a report that Trump was considering a 90 day pause, which many are suggesting to him, including Jamie Dimon and others from bankers and other people the White House quickly caught called that report fake news. And the current dow s and P500 are currently back in the red. So a lot of volatility to say the least. Who knows what Trump will do. In fact, he seems to be sticking by his guns. We'll get to winners and losers from these tariffs a little later. But we've seen overall, we've been seeing Goldman Sachs has raised the odds of a U.S. recession of 45%. As Larry Summers put it, this is the biggest self inflicted wound we put on our economy in history. In terms of retaliation. China was quick to respond, imposing a 34% tariff on all goods imported from the US starting on April 10th. Trump said he's going to impose an additional 50% on China if they don't drop that 34% increase. And of course, the TikTok deal went out the window. The EU is expected to present a united front in the coming days with a set of targeted countermeasures. Let me read a couple more things. This retaliation moves. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who looks unhappy, said over the weekend that more than 50 countries are starting negotiations with the US since the tariff announcement. Whatever. Probably like the penguins, maybe. Though Trump also said my policies will never change. Howard Lutnick, who seems like the biggest clown of all besides Peter Navarro, which are the two faces of this, also offered his take on how tariffs will lead to a manufacturing resurgence in the US on Face the Nation. This, this quote, I literally was like, this is the dumbest person I've ever met. So let's go, let's listen to that and then we'll get some reaction from you. Remember the army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little, little screws to make iPhones. That kind of thing is going to come to America. It's going to be automated and great Americans. The trade craft of America is going to fix them, is going to work on them. They're going to be mechanics, there's going to be H Vac specialists, there's going to be electricians. The trade craft of America are high school educated Americans. The core to our workforce is going to have the greatest resurgence of jobs in the history of America to work on these high tech factories which are all coming to America. He's an idiot. I don't know what else to say. The screws, the robots, whatever he said last thing, sorry. Mark Cuban said one thing the terrorists are going to spur is smuggling a resurgence. Mark Cuban said that and noted that maybe that's what the border patrol money is used for. So reaction.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, let's just talk about Apple. Americans don't want to go into a factory and screw in little screws. Americans don't even want to put on a hazmat suit and go to a regular factory. This notion that Americans are dying to go back to an assembly line is just not true. You can't get, you can't get Americans to work on a construction site, but you think they're going to show up for assembly line work. So let's talk specifically about Apple. IPhone costs about 12 or 1,300 bucks. With the existing tariffs, they're going to 2,000. If we tried to produce them in the U.S. they'd be $3,500. So first off, they're not coming back here. And all that's going to happen is the following. Fewer people are going to buy fewer iPhones. It'll reduce Apple revenues by 30 to 40 billion dollars, say economists. It trades at 8 times revenue. So you're going to wipe out a third of a trillion dollars. You're going to have 401 s go down. You're going to have people be less confident buying things. You're going to have Apple employees and shareholders lose a lot of wealth. You're going to have, I mean, you're in. We're not even talking about the second tier effects. And that is one, we are thrusting people into the arms of China. And two, assume it just goes tit for tat. Let's stop talking. We know tariffs are bad. Let's assume that we reduce a billion dollars of Samsung sales. Right? I'm trying to think of an analog to Apple. And Apple sales go down a billion dollars. Samsung trades at like 1.2 to 2 times revenues. Apple trades at 8. So you think, okay, it's bad, but we each lose a billion dollars in revenue and sales through prices or products that are less competitive because they're more expensive. No, we lose $8 billion in market cap, they lose 2. So the biggest beneficiary of global trade over the last 30 or 40 years has been the US because the products we export are high margin, high value. Add manufactured products. We're the second biggest manufacturer in the world. But what we do is we take cheap oil from Canada, we refine it, we take cheap products from other nations and earth minerals and we turn them into very expensive 55 point margin and service. Nvidia chips.

[Kara Swisher]

Don't leave out services.

[Scott Galloway]

So Tesla another example, Toyota really well run company, trades at 0.7 times revenue. Tesla trades at 8 times revenue. So for every billion dollars in reductions in trade of Tesla, we lose 8 billion in market cap, they lose 77 million. So the echo effect here is so dramatic. And even beyond that, even beyond that, you're going to see in my view over the next five years a pretty serious destruction in the value of our stock markets. And it's for the following reasons. The US market trades at a PE multiple of 28 until Wednesday night. Now it's down to 26. Germany at 22 or 23. Japan at 18, China at 14. Now why do our companies trade at a higher value? For the same earnings, the same profits is as companies in other nations. It's because we have this umbrella called the US brand and it means a lot of things. It means risk, aggressive capital, it means entrepreneurship, it means great universities, great ip. It means immigration. It means rule of law and consistency. We're seen as a consistent trading partner. China doesn't have rule of law. They can put companies out of business right away. They can disappear people. Germany doesn't have as much risk capital. They're not as aggressive. The US is losing or has lost two things. Rule of law. We've now decided to basically ignore court orders. We're doing one offs and companies that make no sense. We're deporting people to El Salvador for no reason at all. In addition, we're no longer seen as consistent. The epileptic, sclerotic decisions of this guy. So what are you going to have? You're going to have a re rating of the S&P down from 26 to, to maybe 15. And here's the thing, all of our companies could continue to outperform the rest of companies around the world and their stocks are still going to go down. If you invested in Latin American stocks, it didn't matter how well the company did. You cannot outrun multiple contraction which is going to happen over the next five years.

[Kara Swisher]

So 70 real point out correctly. Like it's deciding on this one person who has a wrong math and the wrong idea. Between trade deficit and tariffs and the relationship, every, every single thing he's saying is actually wrong and has this thing in his head that everything has to equal out that if they buy this, we sell that we have to sell. Exactly. Why don't they and Stephen Miller same thing. Why don't they buy American cars? Because Toyotas are better, you dumbass. And they make them here too. The stupidity is outranked only by, as you were saying, the rule of law, the lack of any consistent consistency, the reliability of the US One, what has to happen here? What do you imagine is going to happen here? Because there's now suddenly Jamie Dimon is speaking of Bill Ackman has suddenly found his balls again and is saying something truthful, although he made sure he sucked up to Trump in the beginning of his screed, which was about a nuclear winter in investing essentially or in the US Economy. What's your advice to people that are panicking right now and trying to figure out do their investments and then second now first, what do you think's going to happen and what's your advice for people if it continues in this way?

[Scott Galloway]

I feel more confident answering the latter than the former. I can't predict Donald Trump's actions. I think he is so look, the only adult in the cabinet here that isn't on unsecure phones and apps releasing attack plans to the rest of the world and who has any understanding of economics. I've said this for a long time. The adult in the room is the Dow, the 10 year and the NASDAQ. And if the Nasdaq keeps going down, they're probably going to have to respond. They're not going to be able to jazz hands their way out of this. The argument they're making is the following is that sometimes the market doesn't represent the real economy. That's actually a relatively good argument. The Dow Jones and Nasdaq are dangerous indicators because they give a false signal of prosperity. And a lot of people aren't impacted by the markets. They're impacted by things like inflation. The problem is if you were to to take minimum wage to 25 bucks an hour or you were to increase taxes on corporations to try and have some fiscal sanity, that would take the markets down, but that would be an investment that would be worth it. This is just making products more expensive, making our products less competitive overseas and convincing the rest of the world to reconfigure the supply chain to not include American businesses or professionals. That's just shooting yourself in the foot and then taking your gun and putting it in your mouth. So but I have no idea what he's going to do. I just don't get it. I think if this gets much worse, he's probably going to do some bullshit like so for example, Jamie Dimon's suggestion that's even worse because it's the uncertainty that hurts more than the tariffs. We're going to pull another TikTok it just for God's sakes. We'd be better off if he just came up with some sort of not this tariff level, but some sort of modest tariff and let people plan their business. It's the uncertainty and the unpredictability. It's like being in a relationship with someone who's bipolar. Speaking for a friend, you don't know who you're waking up next to.

[Kara Swisher]

Also, it's incorrect. One of the people who they base the theories on has written a piece in the New York Times saying they got this totally wrong and they did the math wrong. And it's a quarter. What they should put here is a quarter of what I said. You know, I said a quarter of what they're doing here, which means they don't know how to do math. That's the part that's frightening. They actually don't understand what they've done. Like pushing the nuclear button. What does this do kind of thing, I don't know, that makes me more nervous.

[Scott Galloway]

The key to building a business, the team of the best players wins. Greatness is in the agency of other. Do you know these ass clowns? Do you know where they came up with the formula for their tariffs? If you type in tariff, give me a tariff that levels up our trade debt, which is a stupid. You want a trade deficit. But if you ask the question, put in place tariffs against every nation based on bringing equilibrium to our trade deficit. If you put it into ChatGPT, you come back with the exact formulas they came up with. Their economic advisors are fucking turning to ChatGPT. Let's go to your second question, what to do as an investor. This is what you do. Nothing. And that is whether you're getting a divorce, whether you lose someone you love, whether you get fired. You do not make big life decisions in the midst of emotional trauma because you are not thinking straight. In addition, tomorrow morning he could announce, say you sell all your stocks today. He could announce tomorrow morning that he's removing all tariffs. He's capable of doing that, and the markets could rip up 2,000 points. And then what happens to your mental health when you sold at the bottom? Probably the worst piece of financial advice given in media was when Jim Cramer, who I don't think. I don't think he's malice. I think he's a good guy trying to do the right thing. He told investors at the very bottom, if you don't like this volatility, you should sell your stocks. Within 14 months, we had recovered all of our losses. If you sold when Jim Cramer suggested you might want to think about getting out, you saw your net worth cut in half. And even more damaging to your financial well being was your mental well being because you saw everybody else get to back exactly where they were and you were the idiot that sold at the bottom. This is what I'm doing since Q4 of last year. I just look at the S and P. It's trading at Apple's, trading at 38 times earnings and it's not growing. I have been selling down US stocks and I have been diversifying into Latin American and European and some Asian stocks. Because if you're just invested in the US you are not diversified and see above a RE rating down a contraction in the multiple of US Stocks, you may want to think about maybe taking some tax losses, harvesting some tax losses. Talk to people, talk to people. Have a kitchen cabinet. Don't do anything rash or out of emotion. But I think if you were to diversify into European stocks, which by the way, you're not buying low and buying selling low and buying high, European stocks have been hard hit hard too. You're a little bit more diversified, which I think is a vastly underrated strategy DEI that stock.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, we're going to go to a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about the losers and some winners from the Trump tariffs. Support for Pivot comes from Coda look, if you're a longtime listener of this podcast, you hear a lot about people turning their daydreams into multimillion dollar ideas. But doing so requires countless hours of collaboration and teamwork, and it can be difficult to build a team that's aligned on everything from values to workflow. Well, that's exactly what Coda was made to do. Coda is an all in one collaborative workspace that started as a napkin sketch. Now, just five years into launching in beta, Coda has helped 50,000 teams all over the world get on the same page. With Coda, you can get flexibility of documents, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI, all built for enterprise. Coda's seamless workspace facilitates deeper collaboration and quicker creativity, giving you more time to build. If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time. To try it for yourself, go to Coda IO Pivot today and get six free months of the team plan. For startups, that's C O D a IO Pivot to get started for free and get six months free of the team plan. CODA IO Pivot it.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from Deleteme. There's a whole online industry of data brokers. Things that are really best kept private, like your name, contact info, photos and addresses could all be compiled by data brokers and sold online. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. I have not had a data breach, thankfully, but I've known lots of people who have and the consequences are very dire. It's so much your stuff is exposed and I really enjoy Delete Me because you can really see what you can do to help prevent it or just to know what's out there and get to be very aware of data breaches in the modern age. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and use the promo code Pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot codepivot Scott we're back. The number of sectors took a beating from Trump's tariff, and it's been particularly rough for big tech. In two days after the tariffs were announced, Apple dropped 16% Meta fell 14, Amazon was down 13. Nice job boys of going to the inauguration. That really paid off for you. The two day drop wiped out $31 billion in net worth for Elon Musk at $23 billion for Jeff Bezos and 27 billion for Mark Zuckerberg. I feel so bad for them. How's the investment in Trump paying off now? As a reporter, a number of these folks want to go to Mar a Lago to talk to him about this. I don't know if they've done it yet, but this was the rumor that was going down that they are really and also bankers. Elon doesn't seem to agree with Trump on tariffs. And of course speaking his mind, he said on Saturday that he hoped Europe and the US would affect him to zero tariff situation, effectively creating a free trade zone. Totally opposite. He also had a couple of posts calling out Peter Navarro, Trump's trade advisor who is such an idiot. This I agree with Elon on all this as EU regulators are reportedly preparing to inflict a billion dollar fine against X for breaking a law to combat illicit content and disinformation. That's separate. This is interesting that he's doing that. The person that's looking more like a genius than ever, Warren Buffett. He didn't kiss the Trump wing. He's been growing his cash pile in the last year. He's currently sitting around $334 billion. Never doubt Warren Buffett, I guess. And then also a few losers. Fast fashion brands. Shein a Scott favorite and Temu Trump has closed the loophole that gave the tariff exemption on goods shipped from China valued under $800. I think it's called de minimis or something like that. It no longer applies as of May 2. A lot of people didn't like this loophole. Without the loophole, prices and orders could jump as much as 30%. Amazon might also take a hit because they ran into the low cost storefront Powered by China. Chinese goods. Cheap Chinese goods. One of things that was really strange was Scott Bessant talking about how Americans shouldn't buy cheap stuff anymore. Too bad. And that's too bad for you Scott, because you can afford cashmere all the time. But that was another message they were sending out is we should get off our cheap goods.

[Scott Galloway]

So no longer shop at Walmart, the biggest employer in the us.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, right, whatever. Like none of your fucking business, dudes. So talk a little bit about tech because also the last thing is tech sells a lot of services into Europe and cloud computing also. So do the McKinseys of the world. World. And that's where we have a trade surplus in services from what I understand. So talk a little bit about why it's impacting tech and sort of you see the real cracks in the Elon's and the others. Bezos is probably apoplectic. Cook is apoplectic, I'm sure. And Warren Buffett looks, he's 105 years old and he's once again the goat.

[Scott Galloway]

It's just. Okay, so let's look at Europe versus the US we export Nvidia chips. Nvidia trades at 24 times revenues. For every billion dollars they sell in additional chips to other markets. Institutional investors and employees of Nvidia register a $24 billion gain. California gets enormous tax revenue from the incremental gains of shareholder value. When Mercedes exports. Mercedes in the United States they trade at 0.23. If they lose a billion dollars in business, they lose $23 million in market cap. 23 million versus 24 billion in lost market cap. We have taken global trade has been great for the world. It's been the world more prosperous. And to be clear, we haven't done a good job of protecting the people who get hurt. Some people get hurt. There are certain industries. South Korea has done a good job of protecting nascent industries strategic to them with tariffs. Tariffs can be used these blanket tariffs. Or let me put it this way, one of the greatest increases in global prosperity over the last 50 years. It would be hard pressed you might think. Well, it's the world order where democracies are bound together under the umbrella of US prosperity and NATO and military march. We have kept the peace. Wars are very destructive to economics. But at the top of the list would probably be global trade. Find out what you can produce best at the lowest price and trade with someone who's really good at producing something else. And you both get better products at a lower price and you have a greater quality of life. So it not only reduces the prosperity of the world, it massively. There's no nation that benefits more from global trade because our products are high margin, high value add. When Canada ships energy into the US we then add value to it, we refine it, we turn it into higher grade petroleum and we sell it at triple the price to other people. We are in the business of high value add, high margin, rule of law, IP driven. That creates so much revenue and shareholder value.

[Kara Swisher]

What about this argument that we're going to bring domestic manufacturing back here and everyone, even the crazy stations are like that's. Going to take 10 years and they're not going to do it.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll never happen.

[Kara Swisher]

It'll never happen.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll never happen. And first off, we're not just a taco truck with masseuses. We're the second largest manufacturer in the world, but we manufacture AI chips, We manufacture really high value ad products that have decent margins. We have purposefully outsourced low value ad, low margin, low shareholder value products. And American consumers, I'm sorry, American workers don't want to go back into factories. 98% of businesses that sell into global trade are small and medium sized businesses. 40 million jobs are related to or depend on global trade. And people say, well, 40 million of 355, that's not that bad. Only 150 million people in the US work. So the notion we're going to bring back, we don't want to bring back. I mean you need, what you need are great, great middle class, well paying jobs, vocational. You need more people trained to install energy efficient H vac heaters at 30 bucks an hour. We need that. But there is not a line to go work on a factory floor in Lansing, Michigan. This isn't what people do. Try and renovate a house and see how much people want to actually build a home that were born here. They don't.

[Kara Swisher]

Who wants to do that? Immigrants.

[Scott Galloway]

Exactly right. So this notion that everyone's lining up to go work at a factory job in the Midwest on an assembly line.

[Kara Swisher]

It'S just, it's such a, it's like an, it's like an 80s guy idea of the world. Like seriously. And I get, you know, I do actually get the arguments about, you know, sort of hollowing out American manufacturing by doing cheaper goods abroad and going too far with free trade and not, you know, retraining people. There's great arguments to be made about trying to figure out new ways for people to have jobs. But this way the idea we're going to bring back factor. Every time Howard, let me gets on the air, I'm like, are you living in a different century? It's been stuck in Trump's head for 40 years. And what's astonishing is the Republicans are like, let's listen to the President, let's not.

[Scott Galloway]

He knows he's playing 4D chess. We just don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

That's not what's happening. He's stuck in the 80s. He's stuck in some era that no longer exists. And wouldn't it be great if the women didn't vote and, and there Was no such thing as me too. And I could do whatever I felt like. This is a different era. And what kind of amazes me is that it hasn't gotten through to that the Republicans are still sticking with. It's such a test of maga. I've never seen anything. This has got to be the ultimate cult test. Will you take the Kool Aid? Will you actually drink the Kool Aid kind of thing?

[Scott Galloway]

We're so narcissistic. We refuse to acknowledge that the rest of the world is a pretty interesting case study in history and the 50s and 60s Latin America embraced protectionist policies. Their economy did not grow. They opened up. Their economy boomed. The last time we had tariffs like this, they weren't even as big as this was in 1930, the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act. Those tariffs weren't as big as these. And what was the impact there? It worsened the great impression. Instead of boosting the economy and creating jobs, by 1933, real US GDP had dropped by a third. Do you know what would happen in the US if GDP dropped by a third? And the unemployment rate, which is at 4%, hit 25%. I was really disappointed. Really disappointed. I watched all the Sunday morning programs. Margaret Brennan did a good job. The rest of them clearly didn't take an economics class because they couldn't ask a basic question. Name a country. There are 159 countries. There are two centuries of economic, modern economic history. Name a country where this level of tariffs has worked.

[Kara Swisher]

It hasn't.

[Scott Galloway]

It hasn't.

[Kara Swisher]

It hasn't.

[Scott Galloway]

It backfires. It's the ultimate own goal.

[Kara Swisher]

The fact that they're going, let's wait and see. Like, no, let's not wait and see what happens when we inject bleach into our veins. Let's not wait and see. We have to move on. But because, you know, one of the things that I want to talk about is this is a gift to China. This is kind of needed a way out of their economic doldrums. We've just handed them the key.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me just ask you one question. This is a sincere question. If they can have a conspiracy that in the basement, which doesn't exist, of a pizza joint, Hillary Clinton is drinking the blood of children they're sacrificing. I can go semi conspiracy theory.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, go ahead. Let's hear it.

[Scott Galloway]

Putin and Xi have each put $10 billion into the Trump coin or they've committed to it. You're going to be the wealthiest man in history, but you need to do the following things. You need to withdraw from Ukraine. You need to fragment the strongest US Western democracy alliances in history to give us license to do whatever the fuck we want.

[Kara Swisher]

So he's the ultimate Manchurian Candidate is what you say.

[Scott Galloway]

And we need you to thrust the biggest trade. China's all about money. We need you to thrust the biggest trading partners into arms. We need you to get Japan and South Korea to start talking to us again. If it was not Trump Vance, this is the question. If it was not Trump Vance, but it was Putin Xi, what would be any fucking different than what has happened over the last two months?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it seems too complicated. I just think he's stupid. We should have hired the smart.

[Scott Galloway]

That's a solid plan B.

[Kara Swisher]

We should have hired the smart woman of color.

[Scott Galloway]

But that's my question. If Putin and Xi had been president and vice president, what would they have done differently?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. I agree. I think he's just so stupid. Stupidity takes the cake here. And he's stupid and he's addled and he's gotta go. He's gotta go. I don't know what else to say.

[Scott Galloway]

Let's surrender Ukraine and side with our enemies. Let's pretend you won the Cold War even though we won it.

[Kara Swisher]

Except he has been talking about this for 40 years. It's been like a hair up his ass. For 40 years he has been talking about this. So I feel like he's now like, I'm gonna do this finally and see what happens. I'm pushing this button and I'm seeing what's happening. I don't think it' speak.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm going to ask Chatgpt.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, do that. All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back, speaking of China, the TikTok deadline gets postponed yet again.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

It the best Star wars series yet. Now season two of the Emmy nominated series returns April 22nd.

[Kara Swisher]

Follow Cassian Andor as he embarks on.

[Scott Galloway]

A path from a rebel to a hero. Starring Diego Luna. And from creator Tony Gilroy, writer of Michael Clayton and the bourne Identity season two of Andor is streaming April 22nd only on Disney Plus. Hi, this is Jevon, your blinds.com design consultant.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow, a real person. Yeah. Yep.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm here to help with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to wow.

[Kara Swisher]

I've got a complicated project.

[Scott Galloway]

No problem.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

So the first room we're looking at is for Shop blinds.com now and save up to 45% sitewide. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply a better way. Scott, we're back. President Trump delayed the ban on TikTok for 75 days for a second time. How ridiculous. A steal for the sale was reportedly closed until Trump made his tariffs announcement, causing China to pull out of the negotiations. Obviously, Oracle, Blackstone and Andreessen Horowitz, all friends of Donald Trump, were reportedly involved. Trump has previously suggested he could lessen tariffs on China in exchange for a deal. I'm sure China is just thrilled to hear that. I don't know why China would do anything. Like maybe they will if they want it. I don't know why you would do anything. So let's do a very brief thing about this because I think it's just going to sit there in limbo and just bump along. Right. There's no deal here. They're going to try to bring it under 20%. I think that's the amount the ownership of China for Chinese, the Chinese government and or Chinese, these investors.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. What you go first here. What are your thoughts? Gar?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know what's going to happen here. It feels like a story from the 1980s too. I mean, I think eventually it'll have some convoluted thing that's not going to make a difference or keep us safer in any way. I think they need to make the case of why it is dangerous. I sort of liked the law but didn't like I didn't feel they made their case. And at the same time, I'm absolutely certain the Chinese are manipulating it. Like I don't even feel like that. So I think it's eventually a dwindling company. Right. Over time, if it's not focusing on this product, I'm in this new zone. Scott of the reason things fail is because products suck.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, 45 to 95 was the brand era, but digital unlock around product is the new bomb again.

[Kara Swisher]

It sounds boring, but I'm like, if Tesla made great cars, people would still buy them even though they're code.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, they don't advertise.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. I really do think that. I'm thinking myself, I use Amazon and I don't want to use it because I. I'm really irritated by Jeff Bezos. But it's a great product and it's really hard, I think, if it gets.

[Scott Galloway]

How do you think I feel using Starlink to call you on FaceTime?

[Kara Swisher]

I know, I know. I think it's just really. I think the problems that this will suffer as a product because of all this mishigash. And so I don't feel. Kids talk. I mean, they're gonna move on to the next thing. That's what I feel like. And eventually they'll come up with some convoluted way where Marc Andreessen gets even richer than he already is and more toxic. And it won't make any sense and it won't protect Americans better and China will continue to dominate. Just to me, all of this has been a gimme to China, just one big gimme to a government that does not want us to dominate.

[Scott Galloway]

So as it relates to TikTok, I just don't think we would ever let CBS, NBC and ABC be owned by the Kremlin in the 60s. I think it's fucking insane to have TikTok. I think we're raising a generation of civic, military and business leaders who hate America. 50% of people our age feel good about America. 1 in 10 young people. And I might even be wrong. But just from a trade symmetry standpoint, there are no media companies in China and we can't afford to have this. The average 14 year old boy in America is spending 17 hours on a media platform controlled by the CCP. It's just not a good idea. So it should be banned. Now the second thing, and this goes back to the notion that you can't outrun multiple contraction, which we're about to incur. The mother of all multiple contraction is remember when Trump hated TikTok and then remember when President Biden had a bipartisan law passed and none of it fucking means anything anymore? Because if the one of the largest donors to the Trump campaign, Jeffrey Yass, who also happens to be an investor in TikTok and a bunch of crypto bros and Silicon Valley bros were also investors, he can do all this bullshit. I'm in, I'm out. I'm your girlfriend. I'm not your girlfriend. I want to break up. I Don't want to break. Why would anyone take us seriously? Why would China? China is like, yeah, fine, China's not going to back down to the US Unless they can figure out a way. Unless they have all sorts of assets, which is Latin for spies, within Oracle, and they feel like they can keep the asset in the US as an espionage and propaganda tool and have their cake and eat it, too. They're just going to play slowball because this guy will change his mind next week. Or maybe General Atlantic Partners of Sequoia Capital, who would have sex with their sisters for a nickel, will put pressure on Trump and offer.

[Kara Swisher]

What are you on now? I knew you'd bring in White Lotus, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, that's unfair. They'd fuck their mothers for a nickel. I think that's more accurate. It. Anyways, these folks. These folks now run the White House. And so this is TikTok, just sort of represents one. A national security threat that we just don't take seriously because our kids like it and we don't understand it. And Biden, I remember when you took me to the White House, I remember thinking, and they were like, oh, we're not on TikTok. And I'm like, that's a bad idea. You don't realize what's going on. You don't see what's happening to our kids here. Your kid can see a beheading and then a dance video and then something showing viewpoints on Hamas and Israel or viewpoints. A bunch of people. Like, I'm even part of it. I see my angriest videos get the most play on TikTok. They get dialed up. And that's not just TikTok. It's everything else. But why on earth, why on earth would we allow missiles to be planted on an Island, Cuba, 60 miles offshore, the US coast, even if they claim they will never use them against us. Like, no, we're just not going to put up with that. And again, it's the inconsistency that's going to take our prosperity now.

[Kara Swisher]

Does it matter? Because we're giving them advantage in this tariff thing. Now we've given them an even bigger thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, biggest winner here.

[Kara Swisher]

Winner, biggest winner, winner, winner, chicken dinner. China, China, China. And they were hands down. They were really losing.

[Scott Galloway]

Biggest winner out of all this. Hands down. All of a sudden, Canada's like, Chinese are buying up all the real estate in Vancouver. This is what every China, every Chinese diplomat and businessman is working. I've done a lot of business in China. They're all working overtime and they're going to European capitals. They're going everywhere and saying, they may say, you may not agree with us, but you know what? We're good partners.

[Kara Swisher]

Lifeline for China. This has been such a gift to China. Anyway, that's our feelings.

[Scott Galloway]

It's an unbelievable gift to Vice President Xi.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails. Last week, John Levitt joined me to co host an episode of Pivot and it was a great one. If you enjoyed that, you'll love his podcast Love it or Leave It Love it or Leave it is America's top late night political gay live comedy podcast. John takes on the biggest and most absurd stories in politics and helps you stay informed while laughing instead of crying. Sometimes he cries. Each episode promises big name guests, unexpected conversations and can't miss moments. Catch new episodes of Love it or Leave it every Saturday, watch on YouTube or join the live show in LA to witness the chaos in person.

[Scott Galloway]

It's been a rough week for your retirement account, your friend who imports products from China for the TikTok shop and also Hooters. Hooters has now filed for bankruptcy, but they say they are not going anywhere.

[Kara Swisher]

Last year, Hooters closed dozens of restaurants because of riots, food and labor costs.

[Scott Galloway]

Hooters is shifting away from its iconic.

[Kara Swisher]

Skimpy waitress outfits and bikini days, instead opting for a family friendly vibe. They're vowing to improve the food and ingredients, and staff is now being urged to greet women first when groups arrive.

[Scott Galloway]

Maybe in April of 2025. You're thinking, good riddance. Does the world still really need this chain of restaurants? But then we were surprised to learn of who exactly was mourning the potential loss of Hooters. Straight guys who like chicken, sure, but also a bunch of gay guys who like chicken. Check out Today explained to find out why exactly that is, won't ya? The Nintendo Switch 2 is basically guaranteed to be the most interesting gadget of 2025, and we learned a lot of new stuff about it this last week or so, though some of the games that are coming out, some of the specs of the new device, and the fact that it's going to cost $449.99. Except maybe it's not, because the other thing going on right now is tariffs. And tariffs threaten to change just about everything about tech. What it is, how it's made, where it comes from, and crucially, how much we have to pay for it. So that's what we're talking about on the Vergecast all week, wherever you get podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, we're gonna do wins and fails. I think I shall go first. I think win. I really enjoy. I love a protest. I thought these hands off protests were everywhere. Every city was full. I love seeing them in Turkey. I love, like people turning out. I don't know if they work not, but D.C. and New York, a hundred thousand attendees each, they were. Amanda went down. I did not. And like average people, it was not like the professional protesters that you might. The themes were administration's attacks on Social Security, the layoffs, deportations. Elon Musk, of course. I love the signs. They make me laugh. Ikea has better cabinets, which they really do. Wisconsin hates Elon so much it could be one of his kids. Abort unwanted presidencies. We're all the couch now. Trump, of course, spent the weekend golfing. I mean, just the visuals couldn't be any better. And I kind of just like it. It gets people invol know if protests matter. But this one had a. Had a real momentum feel, which is nice. And we'll see if that matters or not. For the fail so obvious, 60 minutes, which is, you know, people talk about the decline of traditional media, people who do real reporting, really, we owe them a debt of gratitude. They did a story on Sunday on Venezuelan migrants who got deported to prison in El Salvador. And their reporting found no criminal records for 75% of those migrants. These people were taken off the street, many of them legally here, and put in a prison. It's literally like a movie. It's a movie. It feels like a movie. This is so cruel. And the people who are doing this to people and putting people in prison without any criminal record and sending them to another country they're not even from. I hope they go to jail themselves, themselves at some point and pretending they can't take them back. This is grotesque in every single way. Grotesque. So that's a. It's like such an embarrassment and people aren't paying attention because of all this stuff about the tariffs and the stock market. But boy, what a human rights disaster for us as our country. We have no ability to say we're a good people if we're doing things like that.

[Scott Galloway]

I like both of those. I'm an ageist. I think all of these old people need to go away. I think that Biden's inability and the people around him, their lack of backbone to acknowledge that biology always wins is if we've decided the prefrontal cortex of a 34 year old is too Immature to have that person have access to nuclear weapons. And for God's sakes, an 80 year old shouldn't have their finger on the butt. And my win is the market is responding Democrat. I think it's Saikat Chakrabarti who was the comms director for 35 year old former boss Representative Alexandria Ocasio. Cortez has decided that he's going to challenge Rep. Nancy Pelosi. Or he did challenge her for Chakrabarti, 39 year old software engineer turned political operative. You know, I like seeing young people rising to the challenge. In Los Angeles, 37 year old Jake Rakov announced last week that he was running for the seat of his former boss, Rep. Brad Sherman, who's 70. Representative Sherman, you served your country well. Now collect a gold watch and go play fucking golf. You're too old. In Michigan, State Senator Mallory McMorrow, 38, launched a bid for state's open U.S. senate seat by talking about her experiences as a millennial. I mean there are young people stepping up there.

[Kara Swisher]

I saw her at msnbc. I was on Jen Psaki's show on Sunday and I ran into Mallory. She's really impressive.

[Scott Galloway]

Very impressive. And in Illinois, Kat Abu Ghazala. That's the problem with all these young names are too fucking complicated. Change your name to like Smith.

[Kara Swisher]

And where else?

[Scott Galloway]

Change your name to Smith. You'll get more votes. You'll get more votes anyways. Cash. I like that. That's what I'm gonna call it. Rep. Cat. Rebjan Schakowski.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh my God, Really? You're not doing this.

[Scott Galloway]

Who is eight. Oh, wait, he's running for the seat of Rep. Jan chakowski, who is 80.

[Kara Swisher]

Go home, influencer. Yeah, go home.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, go home. Rep. Jan Schakowski, 80.

[Kara Swisher]

Good congressperson, let me say for many years. Go ahead. Yeah, I agree. Okay, so I'm out of here.

[Scott Galloway]

And Senator Schumer. Senator Schumer, you're 74. Someone this weekend offered me 10 million bucks if I put in 10 million to run for president. I'm like, I'm too fucking old. You need someone who's gonna work 19. Bill Clinton slept five hours a night for eight years.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, okay, so fail old people, okay?

[Scott Galloway]

We need. My win is young people stepping up to the plate. If you're. And I always like to put action binder word. If you're a young, a young moderate running against someone who just is only there because they're a fucking incumbent. Email me Scottern, nyu. And I'm in. I'm in. For the maximum campaign contribution. I am voting for youth and new ideas and vigor. Okay, my fail is the following. On Thursday and Friday, I lost.

[Kara Swisher]

I.

[Scott Galloway]

Don'T know, somewhere between 6 and 8 million dollars. I got some of it back because I'd shorted AI stocks. So I probably lost 4 to 5 million bucks. That's the bad news. The good news is I am so blessed and privileged because of the underpinnings of an America that offers prosperity, offers opportunities to the children of single immigrant mothers who live and die to secretary, rule of law, great entrepreneurial culture. It really doesn't matter. I'm fine. I know it matters to a lot of people I'm knowing, flexing and bragging about my wealth. But it does have a point. My disappointment is that, okay, we now live in a nation where we've decided to side with autocrats, not democracies pushing back on autocrats. We now live in a nation where it's possible that you can go to jail if you don't narc on someone who is planning to get an abortion. We live in a country where it is feasible, where a 14 year old who is raped has to carry her child to term. We live in a country where a woman could die of sepsis in an emergency room parking lot because she's bleeding out because the medical professionals are too scared to perform a necessary abortion. We live in a country where we now have a president who's opened a Swiss banking account where anyone can put money in in exchange for political favors and not have to disclose it. That is the country we are in. And here's what money has done.

[Kara Swisher]

You left out law firms, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

And we can intimidate law firms into agreeing into agreeing not to represent the President's adversaries. I mean, that's the whole fucking point of our legal system. Paul Weiss, go fuck yourself. Jesus Christ. Don't call yourself. You should never call yourself an American law firm. Your headquarters is fucking Moscow meets Mar A Lago. What cowards. And by the way, guest speaker Bob Iger. That's the country we're in. And where do people turn up? Where do people decide? That's it we have to go to Mar a Lago is when the markets are down 10%. Well, guess what? That's about number 30 on my fucking list of what terrible things have happened to this country. So look, I'll take it. I'll take it. But when it's all about the markets and not about people's rights, not about humanity, not about coarseness and cruelty not about the whole point of a constitution. The whole point of a democracy is you protect the lower 50. You and I are going to be just fine. And I understand your concerns about your family. I think those are real concerns. The majority of people in the top 1%, we're going to be fine. The whole point of a constitution and a democracy is you have to protect the bottom 50. And what is all of a sudden the red line? The NASDAQ is down. That's what has people riled. That's the red line.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the red line, right? That's the red line. Yep. Yep. All right.

[Scott Galloway]

We're okay with murderous autocrats and 14 year olds carrying babies to term, but if the NASDAQ goes down, that's too much. You know what? On Thursday and Friday, the market's going down. I could give a flying fuck. I'll go. I'll take the markets down another 10%. Start protecting the lower 50.

[Kara Swisher]

I love this guy. The lesbian from San Francisco, Scott Galloway. I give you people. All right, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. I love your verb, Scott. Elsewhere in the Scott and Kara universe, this week I spoke with Jeff Lawson, owner of the Onion. Oh, what a great guy this guy is in terms of what he's done there. Let's listen to a clip. We have worked to create an environment where people will come to defend us in a way that they don't necessarily come to defend the New York Times because it's believed that New York Times can defend itself. It's a big organization, the little old Onion. When you go after satire and it.

[Scott Galloway]

Shows just how small.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna make a penis joke. Just how small your penis is.

[Scott Galloway]

When you come after satire, I think.

[Kara Swisher]

People rise up and they say, that's enough. We're gonna defend this little thing called.

[Scott Galloway]

The Onion because satire is high, highly protected speech.

[Kara Swisher]

And the Onion is a beloved brand and a beloved publication. Anyway, really interesting guy. He's, you know, he's trying to keep it. I love the Onion. I think they do a great job. And he's sort of saved it in a lot of ways. Anyway, his name's Jeff Lawson. It was great. And he loves Scott Gallery. Love. So he had to make one penis joke.

[Scott Galloway]

I love the Onion.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know. He's like.

[Scott Galloway]

The hard part, though, is occasionally I read the Onion. I'm like, is that actual news?

[Kara Swisher]

I know he's doing all kinds of cool things and he really did save it in a lot of ways. Just a small little contribution. He's a billionaire too. He was at Twilio. He had a big activist investor thing. Sort of toss him out. But really interesting guy. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We will be back on Friday. Scott, read us out and be very indignant. I like it.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show is produced by Lauren Amen. Soy Marcus Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Anderson Todd entered into this episode. Julian Villard edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Brosmia Silvero and Dan Schulan. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Don't you often see someone to think, what's their story? What's their life? How did he end up on a park bench without shoes, feeding pigeons and speaking to himself? University of Chicago I was on a college tour, Kara.