Podcast Summary: Monopoly Isn't A Game (with Lina Khan)
Podcast: Pivot
Host: Preet Bharara
Guest: Lina Khan, Former FTC Commissioner
Release Date: May 27, 2025

Introduction

In this special episode of Stay Tuned, part of the Pivot series by New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, host Preet Bharara engages in a compelling conversation with Lina Khan, the youngest ever chair of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The discussion delves deep into the realms of antitrust laws, the definition and impact of monopolies, and the future of competition in the United States.

Lina Khan's Rise and Antitrust Philosophy

[03:37] Preet Bharara:
Preet Bharara opens the conversation by highlighting Lina Khan's historic appointment as the youngest FTC chair at age 32. He sets the stage by referencing her influential 2017 note, "Amazon's Antitrust Paradox," which critiqued traditional antitrust approaches and spotlighted the nuanced power dynamics of modern tech giants.

[04:08] Preet Bharara:
"How's retirement?"
[04:13] Lina Khan:
"It's been pretty low key. I have a 2-year-old, so it's been pleasant to just get to be around more."

[05:00] Preet Bharara:
Bharara probes into public perceptions, noting the unusual bipartisan support for Khan's work, citing figures like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Elizabeth Warren. He questions whether antitrust enforcement is inherently ideological.

[06:12] Lina Khan:
Khan responds by emphasizing the historical bipartisan support for antitrust laws, referencing Senator Sherman, one of the authors of the Sherman Act.
"Historically, we've seen pretty significant bipartisan support for antitrust..." [06:12]

Defining Monopoly Power

[13:51] Preet Bharara:
"Can we define a term which is difficult in antitrust law? What is a monopoly?"

[14:01] Lina Khan:
Khan outlines the complexities in defining a monopoly, noting that courts use various methods to assess market dominance. She emphasizes behavior as a critical indicator:
"A firm can behave like a monopoly when it's able to make its products worse or raise its prices for its customers without facing real consequences in the marketplace." [14:01]

[15:43] Lina Khan:
She cites a recent case where a judge ruled that Google has monopolized the online search market, demonstrating consensus on certain monopolistic behaviors.

Case Study: Amazon's Antitrust Challenges

[16:11] Preet Bharara:
Bharara brings up Khan's seminal work on Amazon, summarizing its critiques on Amazon's growth tactics and their implications for competition.

[18:37] Lina Khan:
Khan elaborates on her research, discussing how Amazon's practices went beyond merely chasing growth. She points out specific anti-competitive behaviors:
"Amazon had a policy that punished businesses for listing lower prices elsewhere, simultaneously hiking fees on their platform." [18:37]
She explains how these tactics hindered competitors and ultimately harmed both businesses and consumers by limiting choices and innovation.

[25:54] Lina Khan:
Addressing consumer benefits versus anti-competitive behaviors, Khan outlines the lifecycle of monopolistic firms in digital markets:
"In mode one, firms achieve scale by benefiting consumers, but in mode two, they exploit that power to block competitors and harm consumers." [25:54]

The Reality of Monopolies and Market Dynamics

[33:43] Lina Khan:
Responding to the notion that monopolies might naturally self-correct through competition, Khan disputes this with evidence:
"There are meaningful barriers to entry in many markets, controlled by existing monopolists, preventing natural market corrections." [33:43]
She argues that without active antitrust enforcement, potential innovators are often discouraged from entering markets dominated by entrenched players.

[37:33] Lina Khan:
Khan further criticizes the Chicago School's stance that monopolies are self-regulating, pointing out:
"The evidence shows that monopolistic firms often employ tactics to prevent new entrants, undermining the natural competitive process." [37:33]

Current State and Future of Antitrust Enforcement

[43:46] Preet Bharara:
Bharara shifts focus to recent political developments, questioning the firing of FTC commissioners and its implications for antitrust enforcement.

[43:57] Lina Khan:
Khan asserts the legality of the FTC's removal protections, referencing Supreme Court precedents:
"The President's firing of Commissioners Bedoya and Slaughter contravenes Humphrey’s Executor, which the Supreme Court has upheld." [43:57]
She expresses uncertainty about whether this stance will hold, given recent Supreme Court behaviors.

[46:00] Lina Khan:
Discussing the future of the FTC, Khan highlights ongoing antitrust initiatives and expresses concern over potential retrenchment in consumer protection efforts:
"We have major lawsuits against Amazon and Facebook continuing, but consumer protection rules are being delayed." [46:00]

Looking Ahead: Lina Khan's Vision and Legacy

[47:45] Preet Bharara:
Bharara inquires about Khan's next steps post-FTC.

[47:47] Lina Khan:
Khan shares her enthusiasm for the growing interest among young people in antitrust work and her plans to build infrastructure to support future enforcement efforts:
"I'm figuring out how to harness the energy of young trust busters to ensure we have a standing army ready to tackle illegal monopolies." [47:47]

Listener Questions Segment

Following the main discussion, Preet Bharara addresses listener-submitted questions on topics ranging from the qualifications for the Surgeon General to Kid Rock's restaurant and Trump's remarks about Bruce Springsteen. While these segments deviate from the primary antitrust theme, they provide additional insights into governmental roles and current events.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with pre-emptive discussions on potential changes within the FTC and the broader landscape of antitrust enforcement. Lina Khan underscores the importance of vigilant and proactive regulation to maintain a competitive marketplace that fosters innovation and serves the public interest.

Notable Quotes:

• Lina Khan on Antitrust Philosophy:
  "The antitrust laws were founded on the view that extreme concentrations of economic power pose a threat to people's freedoms and liberties." [08:35]

• Defining Monopoly Power:
  "A firm can behave like a monopoly when it's able to make its products worse or raise its prices for its customers without facing real consequences in the marketplace." [14:01]

• On Amazon's Anti-Competitive Practices:
  "Amazon was actively blocking out competitors, which has now allowed them to actually make things worse for their customers." [22:48]

• On Market Dynamics and Monopolies:
  "Without antitrust enforcers policing that, innovators may not think it's worth taking on the big investment." [33:43]

Key Takeaways

1. Evolving Antitrust Standards: Traditional antitrust measures focusing primarily on consumer prices may miss broader anti-competitive behaviors in modern digital markets.

2. Behavior Over Metrics: Lina Khan advocates for evaluating monopolies based on corporate behavior—such as punitive tactics against competitors—rather than solely market share percentages.

3. Bipartisan Roots of Antitrust: Historically, antitrust enforcement has enjoyed support across the political spectrum, although the focus and implementation strategies have shifted over time.

4. Challenges in Enforcement: Political interference and administrative changes pose significant threats to the continuity and effectiveness of antitrust initiatives.

5. Future Directions: There is a growing movement among younger generations to engage in antitrust work, aiming to sustain and enhance regulatory efforts against monopolistic practices.

This episode offers a profound exploration of antitrust laws in the contemporary digital economy, emphasizing the need for nuanced and proactive enforcement to safeguard competition and consumer interests.