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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
Support for Pivot comes from Intuit QuickBooks. Do you own a business that's ready to thrive? It's time to let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoices and tracking expenses off your plate so you can take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is a powerful, AI driven, all in one business platform that can help with day to day tasks including invoicing, expenses and taxes. It can help you unlock growth in your business so you get back to enjoying it. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.
- [00:39]
Ben Stiller
Human eggs are only the size of a grain of sand, but the space they can take up in your mind can be gargantuan.
- [00:46]
Vivian Tu
Now there are a lot of concerns, with some experts saying this procedure really just serves as another way for companies to make money from stoking women's anxieties.
- [00:57]
Ben Stiller
Egg freezing has been presented as a kind of girl boss panacea, but what's the reality? That's this week on Explain It To Me. New episodes every week, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:13]
Vivian Tu
This isn't your grandpa's finance podcast.
- [01:16]
Ben Stiller
It's Vivian Tu, your rich BFF and.
- [01:18]
Vivian Tu
Host of the Net Worth and Chill podcast. This is money talk that's actually fun, actually relatable, and will actually make you money. I'm breaking down investments, side hustles and wealth strategies. No boring spreadsheets, just real talk that'll have you leveling up your financial game with amazing guests like Glenda Baker.
- [01:34]
Ben Stiller
There's never been any house that I've sold in the last 32 years that's not worth more today than it was.
- [01:39]
Vivian Tu
The day that I sold it. This is a money podcast that you'll actually want to listen to. Follow Net Worth and Chill.
- [01:44]
Ben Stiller
Wherever you listen to podcasts, your bank.
- [01:46]
Vivian Tu
Account will thank you later. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. We're off for the holiday but we're bringing you again of my other podcast on with Kara Swisher, my recent interview with Ben Stiller, whom Scott and I adore. Ben is the executive producer and go to director of one of my favorite shows, Severance. We talk about all things Innie and Audi and Ben also shares his thoughts about being an Elon Musk target. Enjoy the episode. Scott and I will be back on Friday. The M7 is a little it picks up noise. It's a much better mic, so.
- [02:26]
Ben Stiller
Okay, how's that?
- [02:27]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, that's good. You're very manly. It's great.
- [02:29]
Ben Stiller
Okay, good.
- [02:43]
Vivian Tu
Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Today I'm talking to actor, director and producer Ben Stiller, someone I've gotten to know over the past few years and really enjoy talking to. I really enjoy the second season of his hit series Severance, and it's finally arrived after almost three years. I liked the first season, but the second season has really taken it to a new level. This is Apple TV's dystopian workplace comedy thriller about a company that's taken work, life, balance to the extreme. In the world of severance, employees at the company called Lumen can choose to sever their brains into two selves, one for work and one for living. When they clock in at 9am Their brain is wiped clean of the outside world. And when they clock out at 5pm it's wiped clean of work. I just love this show. I can't explain why you have to watch it. It's about a lot of things that are going on today, but it's a lot of things that have gone on for a while, and it's about who you are and the unconscious. And it's also very, very funny, which is the best part of it. Ben is the show's executive producer and he's directed many of the episodes. So we're gonna get into the themes, big ideas and creative choices that have gone into the series, which is written by a man named Dan Erickson. It's his first outing, and what an impressive outing it is. Severance is also a success for Apple TV. It's reportedly generated 2 million. For the streamer. We'll talk about his experience working with the tech giant, get his views on how tech money is impacting Hollywood, and how Trump's return could affect the ability of artists to get their stories made. On that note, our expert question this week comes from Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw, who writes a weekly newsletter called Screen Time about the collision of Hollywood and Silicon Valley. So stick around.
- [04:31]
Kara Swisher
Support for the show comes from Zbiotics. Nothing wrong with having a few cocktails with friends speaking for a friend, especially when you set yourself up for a great next morning with ZBiotics. ZBiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink, is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. And according to Zbiotics. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I have used abiotics. I am trying to what's the term? Drink less alcohol. But when I do drink, I have used this and I noticed a tangible difference. Go to zbiotics.com pivot to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Pivot at checkout, Zebiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com pivot and use the code pivot at checkout for 15% off. Support for Pivot comes from the NPR podcast Up First Today's news landscape can be pretty overwhelming. There are constant updates to follow, late breaking stories to track, and never ending feeds to Doom Scroll. Trying to keep up with all of it would make anyone anxious, but it doesn't have to be that way. If you'd like to stay on top of the daily stories that actually matter without driving yourself insane, you might want to check out the NPR podcast Up First. Up first covers the three most important stories of the day in just 15 minutes so you can learn what you need to know and then move on with your day. What does that all mean? It means that you can be informed without compromising your sanity. Simply put, whenever NPR does something, you should give it a trial because the quality control, the pursuit of the truth, and generally, they're just good actors. I love npr. So if you're looking for more news and less noise and a way to start your day off right and informed, you can listen to the up first podcast from npr. Today we're taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin for the south by Southwest Festival, March 8th to the 10th. What a thrill. We'll be doing special live episodes of hit shows, including Pivot. That's right, the dog's going to the great State of Texas. Where should we begin? With Esther Perel, A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, Not Just Football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet, the Vox Media Podcast stage at South By Southwest is open to all south by Southwest badge holders. We hope to see you at the Austin Convention center soon. Visit voxmedia.comsxsw to learn more. That's voxmedia.comsxSW.
- [07:24]
Ben Stiller
It is on.
- [07:26]
Vivian Tu
Ben S. Welcome and thanks for being on. On.
- [07:29]
Ben Stiller
Hi, Kara.
- [07:30]
Vivian Tu
S. Hi, Kara. That's right. That's obviously a severance reference for people who don't know. This show is about a world in which you can become a different person during working hours. The person is called your innie and it is you, but your brain wiped of all the details of your outie life. So the innie is you, but not really you. It's without a lot of information or background. I'm just curious, have you ever thought about what your innie would be like?
- [07:54]
Ben Stiller
You know, recently I've been thinking about it, actually. But I think, you know, the innies are more innocent. They're less corrupted by life experience. And so I guess my innie would be like a little bit more, you know, fun loving, innocent, playful. Though I think I am still playful in certain situations. But I do feel like I'd probably be maybe like a little less sort of like, hunched and like, stressed, you know?
- [08:23]
Vivian Tu
Well, you know, it's interesting. Cause some people's innies are not, like, on the show. Like, Helly's is quite angry. Right. She's instantly angry and her outie is also angry in a different way.
- [08:34]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, I mean, I think Heli is, you know, she's rebellious and curious and not a rule follower. And yeah, she's got a lot of, you know, it's like. I don't know if it's necessarily anger as much as, you know, sort of like this questioning of authority and not taking things, you know, at face value and accepting them just because they tell us we should accept them.
- [09:00]
Vivian Tu
Right. So you wonder where that comes from. Right. Cause a lot of them do. And then they suddenly get rebellious pretty quickly. All of them, by reading books or going down the hall to see a potential boyfriend or whatever. They lose their. They become outies pretty quickly, I would say.
- [09:14]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I mean, we looked at it sort of like the first season was these outies were sort of, you know, kids. You know, they're pretty young. They're only like two. You know, Mark's only probably like two years old, and Irving's maybe was there a few more years. But they're kind of innocent and childlike to a certain extent, but also have developed personalities. And then as the season evolved and as the second season is starting to Evolve. I think they're kind of becoming more adolescents and more, you know, kind of. Yeah. Self empowered and questioning authority. And so I think there's like a maturation that's happening with them slowly.
- [09:56]
Vivian Tu
Right. And a cynicism that goes with it. Cause they're beginning to see things. So would you ever do get severed? I'm just curious. I was thinking, I was talking about with my wife Amanda, like, would you let it happen? She said it would be impossible to sever me because I'd be the same irritating person. Severed her.
- [10:13]
Ben Stiller
I don't know if I'd want to be totally cut off from part of my life experience. I think in retrospect, when I look back at painful situations I've been in or things that have happened in life that didn't feel good, I could imagine not wanting to, wanting to go through that pain. But I also think that, you know, one of the ideas of the show is this questioning of, you know, what can you actually cut off. Right. Because we all have to deal with, with everything on some level. And I think it's also what I was really attracted to when I first read the script too was there's so many different ideas of what, you know, severance could be a metaphor for. And I think we all do sever to a certain extent when we, you know, check out if you have a drink or, you know, you take a gummy or you, you know, watch a TV show or if you go on your phone. I mean, we all find ways to cope with the everyday sort of, you know, torrent of stuff that's coming at us in life.
- [11:09]
Vivian Tu
Right. It's also, I go to hardware stores and browse when I do, I love them. So to be clear, you're not the writer of Severance, but you're executive producer and have directed quite a lot of the episodes. But, but you have been the driver of it. It feels like you were supposed to star in it and you said you prefer to either direct or act, but not both. So what attracted you to it and the writer, Dan Erickson?
- [11:34]
Ben Stiller
Well, honestly, the script came into our production company and it was a spec script, a script sent to see a writing sample. And Jackie Cohn, who worked at our company at the time, read it and she gave it to me and I read it and I was like, this is great. It's a great writing sample. And also, is anybody doing this show? It was so unique. The tone, the dialogue, it reminded me of shows that I'd seen before. But it felt like its own thing. I was one of the ideas bandied about to be in it. But really, the second I read it, I was like, this is Adam Scott. And I felt just a desire to make it. And sometimes it's hard to actually analyze what it is that draws you to something, because sometimes I think it's something subconscious. You don't necessarily know, but you have a feeling for it. And I've tried to listen to that over the years in terms of just, you know, kind of going with my gut feeling about something and not even knowing what it is. I just thought it was good. I thought I wanted to see it. I thought I could see it in my head and wanted to, you know, wanted to make it happen. So that that was it.
- [12:40]
Vivian Tu
What was the thing about it? Cause if it reminded. By the way, you are the voice of Keir Egan, Right. The cult leader.
- [12:47]
Ben Stiller
I'm. I am the voice of Keir Egan in the. And I guess it's episode eight or when you hit 100% and you got like the little video of Kir on the mountaintop. So it's an actor playing Kir, because we actually have the voice of the real Keir Egan that Mark Geller portrays when you see. And he's who Keir Egan is when you see him. I mean, I think it was the mix of humor and weirdness and the basic and the tone of the humor which related to me to a lot of comedies that I loved. The Office banter, this feeling of sort of like this weird sort of like in the movie Office Space or Parks and Rec or the Office, you know, that sort of genre of office. Workplace comedy. Yeah. Where it's like a lot of the humor is based in sort of everyday stuff. But then there was this other layer to it, which is these people don't know who they are, where they are, what they're doing, why they're doing it. Yeah, right.
- [13:41]
Vivian Tu
I mean, it's sort of like you put Mary Tyler Moore in an absurdist Sartre play or something. A little bit of no Exit, I guess, because it's also a lot of friends of mine. They're like, oh, I don't want to watch it. It's too scary. It's a thriller. I'm like, no, it's a comedy, but it's also sci fi. It's romantic, it's dystopian. It's absurd. You've called it a workplace comedy. Is there. There's also.
- [14:03]
Ben Stiller
I feel like it's. Yeah, I feel like it's rooted in the workplace comedy genre. And then it also has these aspects of, you know, thriller, but also like, 70s sort of, you know, style thrillers, and then also the weird kind of Twilight Zone vibe to it also. And I mean, to me, that was what was exciting, was that it's a combination of all these different things. And when you see, like, that where you haven't seen it before, but in some way, it triggers, you know, these ideas for you. It makes you want to lean into it. And so Dan had never had anything produced before, ever before. And so I had obviously worked for a long time, so I, you know, he and I sort of partnered up, and it's always been his vision, but I think we really collaborated a lot in terms of the, you know, just the feeling and the vibe of it and the. The direction of the story as we looked at, you know, building it out from this pilot that he'd written.
- [14:57]
Vivian Tu
Mm. It also has a. I know it's. I don't know how old this guy is, but do you remember one of the last Planet of the Apes, like, beyond the planet. Not Beyond. When they're sort of in Century City. A Planet of the Apes.
- [15:07]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. That might be Battle or Conquest.
- [15:09]
Vivian Tu
Conquest. I don't remember. It had that really cheap feel, but also, you know what I mean, in those weird places.
- [15:15]
Ben Stiller
Well, these are formative movies for me, the Planet of the Apes movies. I went to the Lowe's 84th Street Cinema and watched the Battle. The Planet of the Apes, you know, mare. Where they go from landscapes all the way through Conquest or whatever. So, yeah, that's deeply rooted in my, you know, my DNA of, like, just things that I love to watch.
- [15:32]
Vivian Tu
Or Omega Man. It had a little Omega man, for sure. Yeah. We're all Charlton Heston. Have some.
- [15:37]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, A little bit of Logan's Runnish.
- [15:38]
Vivian Tu
Logan's Runnish. So. But there's also a sense in the moment right now that big tech controls us, but this is about big corporations controlling us, which is not an uncommon trope. There's been a million movies of that. In this case, it's with cooperation, though, not full disclosure, which is what tech is like right now in a lot of ways.
- [15:58]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, technically, Lumen is sort of a med tech company, you know, and they. And they go back to the 1860s and 70s when Kerrigan founded it. And, you know, it kind of is really, you know, one of those companies that does a lot of things and you shouldn't quite know everything that they do. And obviously, the severed workers have no idea what they do. There And I always think that when you see the characters having to talk, especially for Mark in the first season, when he just talks about, you know, supposedly I'm a corporate archivist or something, like, he doesn't have any idea what he's up to. And I think that idea of people who are working for giant corporations with a tech or whatever, you know, who actually, you know, knows what they're really working towards, I don't know. And, you know, I don't know about that world that much, but it seems.
- [16:49]
Vivian Tu
To me, well, it's a maximalization of what is work even for. Right. Like, what's the idea of what works even for when you're just a cog in a larger picture of it.
- [16:58]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. And I think that goes just back to human nature. It's like, we all want to work. We all want to have something to do with our lives. And then there are certain people who, you know, have ideas of doing things that are, you know, who knows what they want to do? I mean, you could pick any tech billionaire. You know, what are their. You know, what are their. Their goals and their aims and. But ultimately, we're all just people who want to work and be happy and fill our time with something that we think is meaningful. And it can be really distressing when you're doing that in something you think is good or meaningful to you. But then the overall goal of this corporation you're working for might be totally nefarious.
- [17:37]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. The goal of the billionaires, tech billionaires, is fascism, as it turned out, and greed.
- [17:42]
Ben Stiller
Right. It's all about greed.
- [17:43]
Vivian Tu
Well, power, power, power is where it is. Or they know better, and they will tell us what to do. And that's what this Corp. Lumen is like that too. We know we care, but then they don't actually care in any way. So there's a lot about the unconscious as a model of knowing separating you from doing. Severed, but not entirely severed, since a lot of it creeps into the consciousness, like the happiness he has in one world and deep unhappiness in the others. And the idea that it would seep into it. What does that mean to have two senses of knowing? And how does it impact directing the actors? Because the actors obviously have to be two different people when you're doing it.
- [18:22]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I mean, to me, again, it's one of the really interesting aspects of the premise of the show is how much of a person can be cut off from. I guess, you know, this. If it's your brain, if it's your mind, you Know, there are technologies that are approaching trying to do something like this, but what is it that can cross over if you don't remember anything about your life? What are the innate human desires or characteristics that make you a person? And so that's constantly what we're looking at and asking in the show. And for the actors, it's great because that's a question they can ask in literally every scene. They can wonder about, well, how much of this is coming through my feeling for Dylan and Irving, if they're having a conversation, how much of Dylan's outy life is coming through for Dylan, even if it's not what the scene is about, or for Adam Scott playing Mark, he's constantly going back and forth between that and. I think that's, to me, what's really interesting about the show, too, is finding those places where something transcends the severance barrier, an emotion or a feeling. There's a time in episode, I think it's like, I forget which episode, season one, where Dylan says, basically, do you think, does love transcend the severance barrier? And that's the question. What transcends? And when we suppress feelings, how much can you really keep out of what your experience? I mean, it goes to the questions of post traumatic stress disorder. Suppressed memories, repressed memories, all those things.
- [20:06]
Vivian Tu
Years ago, I had a friend who was in one of those psychiatric things where they did therapy every day for hours and hours and was trying to find out all about themselves and figuring out where suppressed memories was. And they said, have you ever been to therapy? I said, never. I don't wanna know that much about myself, like something like that. I said something offhand, which is probably rude to someone who's in intense therapy. And they said to me they were a pretty unhappy person, I would say. And they said to me, you're blocking. And I said, it's working because I'm happy and you're not. Which was kind of an interesting moment. And I thought about it, watching this. I thought it'd be really interesting to watch this if you were a therapist of some sort too. Like, how do you look at this? Cause everything's about the conscious and unconscious and what bleeds into each other.
- [20:50]
Ben Stiller
I mean, as a person. I've been in therapy.
- [20:53]
Vivian Tu
Oh, good.
- [20:54]
Ben Stiller
And I've talked a lot. And that question of how much talking about your past or talking about memories and issues, there's questions about that, how much that really can help. And alternate therapies that are much more in the body and actually not really just about analyzing And I think that, to me resonates because I feel like a lot of this stuff is internal, and there's even questions about generational trauma that people talk about now. And it's really interesting because you think about what is cellularly in our bodies that we carry with us.
- [21:35]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. Well, except in this case, they use an advanced piece of technology to create the sever. Right. To create the suppressing of the unconscious or the conscious. But even though it's an advanced technology that's happening here, it seems like everyone in the show is living in the 70s. As you talked about, it's a retro set. The costumes feel older on all of them, really talk a little bit about that, why you wanted the look and feel. There's also a lot of doubling and duality, which was there's people walking together in twos, or it's a theme of two characters playing two different people. Talk a little bit about that, the look and feel of why you had the retro set, and also the duality that's happening visually.
- [22:18]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, well, in terms of the Audi world and the Inu world, too, what I thought that Dan had written in the pilot was a very sort of generic kind of world. And I think he was commenting on that, I think, in a way, in terms of what working for a big corporation can kind of turn you into. And that sort of blandness, that corporate blandness, I felt we should mirror in the outside world. And I didn't want to have any actual reference points like, you know, like CNN or, you know, brand names or things, you know, when you saw the news, just, you know, and that. That was sort of. The idea was like, we don't quite know where or when this is. It's kind of now, but we don't want to have any sort of touchstones or. And even in the technology and look, I grew up in the 70s, and I do feel like ever since cell phones and smartphones were invented, it's really changed our lives, obviously. But also storytelling, because so many things that you'd have to do before that, you tell a story, you'd have to go and do research or whatever. Now you just get on your phone. It's not very cinematic.
- [23:29]
Vivian Tu
No.
- [23:30]
Ben Stiller
You know, and that's why, like, Like. Like a prison story, too, inside of a prison, you. You don't have access to that technology. Prisoners aren't allowed. So. And in a way, severance is a little bit of a. It has a prison aspect to it.
- [23:42]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. It's got the Stanford Prison experiment vibe to it.
- [23:45]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. And I Think, you know, that world should be as kind of interesting and off and generic in its own way as the ini world, the outie world. And so that's kind of why we sort of gravitated towards that. And so the duality aspect, though, is just inherent in the theme. So just that's a natural sort of, you know, a tendency for us then to look for in the imagery that. Because it's just telling the story in a way, and it lends itself to that. So I think that's part of just the sort of visual world of the show. And I think when you have a clear theme and you have an idea that's really specific, you want to stick with that theme and let everything build off of that. So it feels organic and not forced, hopefully. And that's what I think the great thing about this idea is that it allows for that.
- [24:39]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, I went back and looked at the movements and it's all duality. It's really interesting. But it also adds a level of suspense since there is what the viewer knows and what two different people know, and then the pervasive sense of withholding information in a total surveillance environment. Right. There's a lot of misinformation happening here in this environment, largely by the Lumen executives who are not severed by the way, who know both sides.
- [25:04]
Ben Stiller
Right. And we are constantly, you know, dealing with that question all the time. The question of how much Lumen knows, how much they're listening to, how much they're seeing, you know, within the severed world. I think there's always a question of how much they're letting happen, how much they know is happening, how sometimes the technology isn't quite great there. So there's like, you know, there are places they can find like, you know, like a closet or something like that. And, you know, that's like a specific aspect of the reality of the show that, you know, maybe if we were doing this as a modern day show, everybody would be like, oh, wait, well, there's no way you could do that because they would have microphones everywhere. But I think there's something to the sort of clunky nature of this corporation too, that is kind of fun. And, you know, we don't have any. There's one security person in the first season, Grayner, but early on we had experimented and thought about having security guards on the floor. And anytime we ever brought security guards in, it always felt to me like it turned into like a Star Trek episode or something. There was something about it. And we realized, oh, well, like the more we don't tell, the more we don't show, the more the audience has a chance to fill it in themselves. And that's always been, for me, a little bit of the question as I put the show out into the world. When we were making it the first season, we made all nine episodes and nobody had seen it. It's like, oh, I hope people will buy this, because, you know, you have to buy into it. But it's there because I feel like those aren't the questions as much that I'm as interested in, as opposed to the sort of greater themes of the show.
- [26:43]
Vivian Tu
Right? Absolutely. I mean, it's also a return to work story, which is sort of in the news right now. This idea of return to work. Did you understand that at the time you had a Covid period in here when you were making it?
- [26:57]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, not at all. I mean, and yeah, the first season, we made starting right when Covid started, and we were delayed, actually six months in production because of it. And so when the show was finished and people were starting to go back to work and some writer wrote about it as like, oh, this is like one of the first return to work shows. It was purely, you know, that's just happenstance. So it was just, I think, the timing of how the show came out and it seemed like both the aspect of being sort of severed from everybody else in the world, you know, as we were, and that weirdness. Even making the show where the actors were, you know, we were first season, everybody was in full ppe and, you know, face masks.
- [27:41]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, I don't remember any of that. I don't remember blocking. It's working. Someone's like, do you remember that? I'm like, I don't.
- [27:48]
Ben Stiller
And Trump was president before you knew that.
- [27:50]
Vivian Tu
I don't remember that. It's not going very well right now. We'll get to that in a minute. But no blocking. It's working. I want to get into the business of this in a second, but do you have a character you particularly vibe with on the show?
- [28:05]
Ben Stiller
I mean, I really enjoy all the characters equally. I like them. Adam is the key, I think, because he's the protagonist. But Milchick, that guy Milchick.
- [28:18]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, Milchick. Excuse me, Milchick.
- [28:19]
Ben Stiller
Well, Milchick is. Yeah. I mean, I'm excited for this season with Milchick, too, just because I feel like he's an enigma and he can be scary, but there's so many different aspects to who he is that make him a really fascinating character. And Everybody works for this corporation. So at the end of the day, there's a chain of command. And I think that's something that's interesting to us in the show is sort of like how even if it's this weird kind of world or these maybe possibly, you know, scary characters that work at the company, they're also looking. And so they have to deal with all of the office politics, too.
- [29:00]
Vivian Tu
The defiant jazz scene was my favorite in the entire. When they were dancing. So awkward. I've been at that party. I've been at that office party where they have cake in the office. They do pineapples here.
- [29:13]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, the pineapple fruit plate as a way of luring people back. You know, it's like sort of like, you know, those shitty little, you know, perks that you get that, you know, in contrast to what these people have experienced, that. That's huge for them. I mean, though, they are trying it in season two on the outies. But the. It's funny to me that when they have an office party, it's still just them. There's nobody else there. So it's just like the lights change, but it's still the same four people who are, like, mingling with each other.
- [29:42]
Vivian Tu
Right?
- [29:42]
Ben Stiller
So that was one of my favorite sort of setups that we had with, you know, the idea of, like, well, okay, where is this gonna go? And all of a sudden, when you get this next level perk, they're gonna change the color of the lights in the room and you're gonna dance. And the combination of Milchick is like. He's kind of like, obviously the best dancer there.
- [30:05]
Vivian Tu
Such a good dancer.
- [30:06]
Ben Stiller
An amazing dancer. Tramell Tillman and Adam, the best white guy dancing I think I've ever seen.
- [30:13]
Vivian Tu
Quite good. He didn't do his biting his lips.
- [30:17]
Ben Stiller
White man over bite.
- [30:18]
Vivian Tu
Yeah.
- [30:20]
Ben Stiller
To save that Billy cr. Yeah. Yeah, it was. To me, the weirdness of that moment is kind of like, well, that's what's in the show. It's motivated because it's a. You know, it's a party. It's a perk. You understand why they're doing it. But it's also just so weird. And it's really fun to be able to, like, explore that.
- [30:41]
Vivian Tu
We'll be back in a minute.
- [30:52]
Kara Swisher
We're taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin for the south by Southwest Festival, March 8th through the 10th. What a thrill. Chicken fajitas, queso strawberry margarita, extra shot of tequila. There you'll be able to see special live episodes of hit shows, including our show Pivot. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel, A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, Not Just Football with Cam Hayward and more presented by smartsheet. The Vox Media Podcast stage at south by Southwest is open to all south by Southwest badge holders. We hope to see you at the Austin Convention center soon. I'm not joking. I love south by Southwest. The people are a ton of fun. It's a great time. If you do come, come up and say hi. Visit VoxMedia.com SXSW to learn more. That's VoxMedia.com SXSW.
- [31:46]
Ben Stiller
Over the last few weeks, America's health and science agencies have been shaken. There's been funding freezes, communications, gag orders, censorship of research. It's really a chaotic picture. I am really scared.
- [32:00]
Kara Swisher
The United States was the best place in the world to do science, and.
- [32:04]
Ben Stiller
That has never felt more threatened in my career than it does right now. Now. This week on Unexplainable, what does all this mean for the future of science in America? Follow Unexplainable for new episodes every Wednesday. All right, so here's the deal. Take a former world number one. That's me, Andy Roddick. Add in a journalist who knows everything about tennis and a producer who's still.
- [32:31]
Kara Swisher
Figuring out how to spell tennis.
- [32:32]
Ben Stiller
He gets served with Andy Robert Product, the weekly podcast where we break down the game we all love. We cover the biggest stories, talk to the sport's biggest stars, and highlight the people changing tennis in ways you might not even realize.
- [32:44]
Kara Swisher
Whether it's Grand Slam predictions, coaching changes.
- [32:46]
Ben Stiller
Off court drama, or the moves shaping the future of the sport, we've got it all. This podcast is about having fun, sharing insights, and giving fans a real look at what makes tennis so great. Catch serve with Andy Roddick on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you listen, listen or watch us on YouTube, like, subscribe, follow all that good stuff. Let's get started.
- [33:13]
Vivian Tu
So I want to talk a little bit about the business. Have you been surprised how popular it's gotten? I know Succession got more popular in the second season, right? And Severance was Apple's first new series order after the company launched its streaming service and it was trying to do an HBO thing that was very clear a place for big talent to come and make what they want with big budgets. Now, Severance is a reportedly costing a lot of money and there have been cuts at Apple pulling the budget as the second season was being produced all across the way. But at the same time, Parrot analytics was noting that you might be generating $200 million for Apple in terms of subscriptions and everything else. And at the same time, you're about to maybe announce your third season. Talk a little bit about the calculations here of how you look at it, because it used to be so much easier. Now you made mostly movies over TV shows. But talk a little bit about the calculations because it's a weird economic environment at the same time, honestly.
- [34:08]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I know very little about it. It's a weird world to be in. From the beginning, it was a new, strange experience because when we started developing the show, Apple wasn't even up yet. And someone called up and said, yeah, Apple's gonna do a streaming service, too. I remember, like, laughing, going like, who's okay? Everybody's doing streaming services. This is crazy. And we went out and pitched the show to different hbo, all these places, and Apple was the only one that bought it, and they weren't even up yet.
- [34:40]
Vivian Tu
So what did the others say about it?
- [34:42]
Ben Stiller
Well, you know, no one ever really tells you it's Hollywood stuff.
- [34:45]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:46]
Ben Stiller
They say we loved it. It just wasn't for us. Yeah, but that's just the way it is. And that's par for the course. But they said yes to it. And then it was like, okay, we're gonna develop this thing for Apple, you know, Apple tv. That's weird to think of. And then a couple years go by, and then all of a sudden they. And running, and we're a show that's in production for them. And so, honestly, I had no sense of what success would be other than I hope people watch it. And, you know, they don't really tell you the analytics.
- [35:16]
Vivian Tu
Oh, they don't? No. They don't ever tell you the analytics?
- [35:18]
Ben Stiller
No, they show. They show us graphs and charts, but without numbers attached to them. And it's weird. I think that's weird for any creative person, especially when you're used to. You make a movie, you know exactly how many people went to see it on opening night, how much money it made a show. You get Nielsen ratings. So in a way, it took the pressure off of us because there wasn't some number we were waiting to hear. All we wanted to hear was like, yeah, we're happy. A lot of people are watching it, and you want people to watch the show. But the first season, you know, we were lucky enough to get very positive, you know, critical response, which hardly ever happens. My life. And it was. I was so happy about that. And it seemed like people Were watching it, but I didn't know how many people. And then we went into our process of making the second season, which got hit by the strike, and it took much longer than we wanted. So coming back after three years in this culture is. It's like 100 years in terms of just any guarantee that people are still going to be there. But in the meantime, Apple had grown. They'd built out their subscriber base. And I think they also really get the show. Have always gotten the show. I thought they did a great job of marketing it the first season in terms of just, like the aesthetic of it with the show and Apple. And it always felt like it looks.
- [36:37]
Vivian Tu
Like Apple headquarters, but go ahead.
- [36:39]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, it does. And that wasn't intentional. I've never been to Apple headquarters, you know, seen like aerial shots, but like, really, we designed it, but it always felt like it's, you know, yeah, this fits on Apple. And then the second season, they really put a lot behind it. I think they believed in it and they had money invested in it, too. And luckily, our fan base, our core fan base really was still there for it. And I felt like it could go either way. It could go. It's three years and we waited for this. No, thanks, or nobody cares, it's back. Or it could be, hey, it was worth the wait. And that's totally out of your control when you're making something. So you just put your head down and do it.
- [37:22]
Vivian Tu
So you don't know. I mean, I'm just. This Parrot analytics is pretty accurate. $200 million for Apple in terms of subs, you don't know.
- [37:29]
Ben Stiller
Yes, I saw that article, but that's all.
- [37:31]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, yeah. Does that change your, you know, going to Apple saying, I want more money, I want.
- [37:36]
Ben Stiller
No, no. Because honestly, I feel like they've been great. I have no complaints. It's like they. They've gotten behind the show. They. I, you know, and they. These things are so complicated. I think I was really happy to see that article. Cause I didn't know. Feel like they've always been like, yeah, we love the show. We're behind it. And, you know, it's. Yeah, it's never been like a thing.
- [38:00]
Vivian Tu
Did you have any problems working for a tech company?
- [38:05]
Ben Stiller
You mean like in terms of just my own sort of moral.
- [38:08]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. Versus a Hollywood. Yeah. Well, just. This is a whole new change with these tech companies. Sort of Amazon, Apple.
- [38:14]
Ben Stiller
Just the concern for me, just the concern that not knowing what Apple TV plus would be like, whether or not they were, how serious they were about it, whether or not we would be looked at as, you know, a real show early on, you know, in that way, I think, like. And, you know, that's also the not knowing what they had really planned for and what they were trying to do, other than them saying they wanted to make really good shows.
- [38:41]
Vivian Tu
Right.
- [38:41]
Ben Stiller
Which they had. But, you know, you do hear, of course, everybody's like, well, you know, ultimately, it's a phone company. You know, they're making phones.
- [38:47]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, yeah. Like Amazon, the creator of Transparent, called me once and I said, you're selling toilet paper. That's what you're doing.
- [38:53]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. And look, for a creative person who grew up in my generation, it's weird to see, you know, it's weird to see that Amazon prime is on there. Like, when you're shopping for Amazon stuff and you could just click on that and watch movies and shows, it takes away something of, you know, of the specialness of movies, you know, when you look at it that way. And then there's the other aspect of. Of what's informing their decisions based on their analytics and the level of information that they're getting that will create for them ideas of what they think they want to produce for their platform.
- [39:26]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. So what are the chances of a third season? You did get Tim Cook in an ad. That was a good sign.
- [39:31]
Ben Stiller
Yeah.
- [39:32]
Vivian Tu
I think he's a big ham, by the way. He pretends he's not a ham. He's a ham.
- [39:36]
Ben Stiller
He seemed to like it. Yeah. I think their chances are really good. And I think for us, we just want to be able to tell the story in the number of seasons that it should be to finish the story. And that's what's great. I mean, that's the upside of working in this era is that we're not a show that has to keep going because it's a network hit show. They're saying we need 22 episodes, and you got to keep doing it until the ratings drop. That pressure is not there. And that I think is. Is something that gets lost a little bit in all the sort of weird negatives of this world, too, is that you have that creative freedom.
- [40:16]
Vivian Tu
So at the same time, there's the Netflix phenomena. Right. They regularly beat all the other streamers. More top 10 shows combined than all of them. Despite the quality and reviews that Apple gets, they'll pop up anything. Netflix, like, really pretty much. Now, you guys have been doing a bunch of marketing. You had the season two pop up in Grand Central Station. That was hysterical. Where you put them in A glass box, and had people have them do their work in the glass box, which.
- [40:41]
Ben Stiller
Was for three hours.
- [40:42]
Vivian Tu
They were there for three hours and you were outside. People were shooting pictures of you at the same time. How do you. Does everything now go around Netflix in that regard, or is there. Streaming is sort of starting to settle, I guess, but maybe not.
- [40:56]
Ben Stiller
I don't know in terms of how it's all settling out. It's just. I know. It's a crazy new world. I know Netflix has changed everything. The amount of shows that they produce, movies that they make, the level of what they're putting in and spending. It's just changed everything. So everybody who makes stuff, you want your stuff to be seen. And so it's that sort of push pull where if you have something on Netflix, you know that you have a chance for more people in the world to see it than probably ever. But it also could be just go down the queue very quickly and never even, you know, get any attention. And so that. And that's a real thing, too, you know.
- [41:42]
Vivian Tu
So you're scared of the queue.
- [41:44]
Ben Stiller
The queue, yeah, sure. But I mean, like, who wouldn't be, you know, feeling like, oh, I don't want to just go down, you know, but it's just such a crazy world now that the cultural moment that you have for something. I actually like being on Apple because they don't drop everything at once. We get to have an episode every week, and I think for our show, that benefits our show because we get a chance for people to chew on it and to think about it and to talk about it and to go online and go back and forth. Yeah. And to want it. And I like that. And maybe that's just a generational thing. I'm an old guy who's like, oh, I remember when shows would come on every week, but it is Succession was like that. Right. And you look forward to that. And I think it's just the new world we're in. But, yeah, Netflix has turned the movie business upside down, and it's still trying to find its way, I think, in terms of what defines a movie, I'm hoping, and I really do believe we're going to get back to what people went to the movies for, besides Spectacle and Giant IP and all that stuff. And I feel like that will come back around.
- [42:56]
Vivian Tu
Well, you've made both types of movies, right?
- [42:58]
Ben Stiller
Sure, yeah. But, you know, back in the day a little bit, and I haven't done it for a while in movies, and it's hard, too. The thing is the movies had that version of it where you have an opening weekend, and if your movie didn't do well on the opening weekend of wide release, then it would go away pretty quickly. So it's kind of the same version of being on the queue at Netflix. It's just kind of on steroids or.
- [43:21]
Vivian Tu
Something even more existential. In that vein, there's a question. Not from me. Every episode, we ask an outside person to record a question. Here's yours.
- [43:29]
Ben Stiller
Hi, Ben. My name is Lucas Shaw, and I'm the managing editor for media and entertainment at Bloomberg News. My big question is. Following the strikes and the broader pullback on spending in Hollywood, many executives, producers, and creative people say this is the worst time to work in Hollywood in their lives. What's another moment in your career where your peers had so much existential dread? Thanks.
- [43:51]
Vivian Tu
Ha. That's presuming you have existential dread. It.
- [43:56]
Ben Stiller
I mean, existential dread is sort of something that creative people have all the time.
- [44:01]
Vivian Tu
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Ben Stiller
And that, I think, could be like, generational trauma that I have too. I mean, I grew up around that too. It's, you know, it's not a very secure, you know, business being an actor or a creative person. I mean, I can't remember a time when people were as off balance as they are now. I mean, it's. Everything has changed in such a big way. I'm trying to think of when VHS happened or something like that or things like that, but it's just all been sort of thrown out there in a way that we don't know. I don't think the people who are making things know where it's gonna land either. So they're trying to figure it out. And there's a lot of fear. Fear because those people want to keep their jobs, which I understand, but they, you know, have to make these choices based on what they think the audiences are doing. And so, yeah, I. I don't. I can't remember a time like this, what didn't feel.
- [45:04]
Vivian Tu
So you had noted it in the New York Times interview, though, that when a decision is made, it's never explained to the creative person, or usually if it is, it's not usually the truth, etc.
- [45:12]
Ben Stiller
Well, that's. Yeah, that's just sort of, you know, old school.
- [45:15]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, that's old school.
- [45:16]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, it is. It's. And, you know, it really is. You know, people don't ever say, I don't know of in any business because I've only done this. But, like, people tell you when they reject an idea or Something if they always tell you the actual, their honest, you know, reason why they're doing it. But I think, you know, in this business people want to keep their relationships with each other and they want to stay connected because they don't know what the next thing is going to be. And that's just always been a part of.
- [45:43]
Vivian Tu
But I do think you're right. The bosses don't know what's going to happen. Right. That's the problem is they really don't know. And going back to existential jed, coming up with the guardrails for use of AI in filmmaking are important points of negotiation. The actors and writers strikes. We've talked about this. There was some recent controversy with the Oscar nominated film the Brutalist. They use AI to correct the Hungarian accents of its lead actors. Do you think about AI's potential impact on the industry? Are you thrilled by it? Is there a line in your head that shouldn't be crossed when applying. I suspect you might lean into it. I don't know why. I think that maybe.
- [46:16]
Ben Stiller
I think it's so unknown it's scary to think about what people could do with it. The potential, what is actually possible to do. I do believe that creative human beings are always going to be what people want to connect with and see their stuff. There are little places where AI, I mean, I feel like almost what's going on with CGI really is in terms of visual effects is basically into that world anyway at this point using those tools. I mean, there are little ways that if I feel like, oh, to be honest, I'd say like, oh, you're doing adr, which is when you're looping extra lines or something and an actor's not available. If the actor said, hey, it's okay, you can use my voice and we can get the, you know, those words that you need to put in because I'm not available to do because I'm doing another movie, something like that. Those are like kind of like mundane, practical things that I think would be really helpful. And I don't know, I mean, I think I love the Brutalist. I, you know, I don't in any way look at that as that making that movie lesser in any way at all. Honestly. I also am very impressed with that movie as a lot of people are because the price it was made for. But the unfortunate thing is that a movie like that has to be made for such a low price. You know, it's just, it's hard because I know how much creative people will, you know, will really stretch themselves to do what they want to do creatively because they, you know, and it's really hard to get the opportunity to make a movie that's not something that everybody in the world is going to want to see. But yet those are the movies that we celebrate with awards and, and move us. So, you know, that's what I feel for are the creative people who are forced to have to really sacrifice a lot so that they can get something made. And now whether if AI could in some way help that, I don't think that's a bad thing. But, you know, where the rules are around it. I mean, the idea of like somebody taking your image and then being able to do whatever they want with it, it's very concerning to me when I see what it could be done.
- [48:26]
Vivian Tu
Well, they take your image a lot. Zoolander, all your different parts.
- [48:30]
Ben Stiller
I've often seen that also happened. That's always happening, that kind of thing. Right. I think ever since the Internet, you know. But I do think it's concerning when you see in the political world how, you know, political ads can be created and people doing things that they didn't do. It's, that's, that's really scary.
- [48:49]
Vivian Tu
We'll be back in a minute.
- [48:52]
Ben Stiller
FOREIGN.
- [48:57]
Kara Swisher
This week on Prof. G Markets, we speak with Alice Hahn, China economist and director at Greenmantle. We discuss the potential impact of tariffs on China's economy, how Tesla is faring against byd, and how a Trump presidency.
- [49:10]
Ben Stiller
Could shape China's foreign and domestic policies.
- [49:12]
Vivian Tu
Trump is the biggest dove in a house full of hawks. Everyone else around him wants to push him towards being more hawkish. And China on trade, on tech, on military. And I sense that, you know, whether it's Rubio or Hegseth or Waltz, they're going to try to push the agenda of being tougher in China and having more deterrence vis a vis Taiwan.
- [49:32]
Ben Stiller
You can find that conversation exclusively on the Prof. G Markets podcast.
- [49:38]
Vivian Tu
So you recently joined me in a not so exclusive club. We've both been called names by Elon Musk. I am seething with hate and an asshole. In case you're interested. I'm not going to repeat what he said about you. You know what he said about cause I'm a good girl. Okay, I don't say that word anymore. I used to when I was a kid. We don't do it anymore. But he seemed upset that you endorsed Kamala Harris. And then after you wondered an interview whether Tropic Thunder could be made today. And I wish there was, as you know, I'm desperate for Tropic Thunder 2. He wanted you to be more upset about how Wokeness has supposedly ruined comedy. Talk a little bit about this.
- [50:13]
Ben Stiller
That makes no sense to me.
- [50:14]
Vivian Tu
I have no idea what that means. Well, you think he's on the up and up now these days because he makes so much sense about everything he.
- [50:20]
Ben Stiller
Does, but very little interest in his whole thing and, like, what he's doing.
- [50:26]
Vivian Tu
So tell me why. Because he was retweeting a Daily Mail headline that read, ben Stiller says Woke America Killed Edgier Comedy. That's not what you said at all. From what I could read.
- [50:36]
Ben Stiller
No. Yeah, that was. Yeah, that was. Not at all. It's the opposite of what I was saying. I don't know why he has so much time on his hands that he's retweeting something that was written about me. I know he really likes Tropic Thunder. Great. Good for him. But I think he's, you know, after that, you know, the Nazi salute. The double Nazi salute.
- [50:58]
Vivian Tu
Yeah.
- [50:59]
Ben Stiller
I'm just. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not into it. Never was into it. And I think, you know what's happening, honestly, not that anybody needs my opinion, but what's happening in terms of him being so close to the president and, you know, all the questions that. That brings up in terms of conflicts of interest, all of that stuff is really, really confusing.
- [51:19]
Vivian Tu
It is absolutely. The two of them together and what.
- [51:21]
Ben Stiller
He cares about, pop culture and all that stuff. It's like, you know, who gives a shit?
- [51:27]
Vivian Tu
You know, he wanted you to agree with him that Tropic Thunder couldn't be made. Isn't that awful? It goes with the narrative of, isn't everybody trying to stop us because we're the greatest victims on Earth? Us rich people are the greatest. I think that's down that lane. Something like that.
- [51:41]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I mean, I don't think it makes anybody a victim. I mean, what the temperature is in terms of what movies are getting made or not. The reality is, is, yeah, sure, the environment is different and it would be tougher to get it made. I don't know if it could get made or not. I think it would be harder to get it made, but that doesn't mean I'm commenting on the state of our culture. I think it's.
- [52:04]
Vivian Tu
He wanted you to agree with him, I think. Yeah.
- [52:06]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. Well, I don't.
- [52:07]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, but you don't. Okay. But one of the things that people are worried about is a Trump chill in Hollywood. Now, obviously that's happening. In tech, Everybody showed up at the inauguration. All the tech. Richest people in the world. New York magazine recently quoted an anonymous producer who said, there's more fe in the executive suites now than there's ever been. There seems to be a pulling back. Disney pulled a trans character, for example. Is there any indication for you that Hollywood executives would be more hesitant to fund projects with political messages? Quite a few of yours have them now. Besides sports that you endlessly Blue sky about which I don't understand any of your references, you're also very political. You don't shy away from. But I believe they're a basketball team. In any case, you are a political. But do you. Do you think about that at all?
- [52:56]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, sure, I think about it. I mean, yeah, I don't know, like after, you know, when October 7th happened and, you know, Israel. Yeah, I was trying to think of, like, well, what should I say? And it was really, I realized like, I'm not going to be able to express myself in a tweet or a blue sky post or, you know, it's just I don't want to go into that arena of like, having to sort of like distill some idea down into a thought that then people are going to debate and, you know, what's going to happen with that. But so to me, it's more a question of like, where do I express myself and what do I do? And I don't think having to legislate all this stuff on the, you know, on your phone all the time or as much as sometimes there's an instinct to. To me, that's not something that I. I'm gonna really do well with or it's just not gonna make me happy to do that. But I feel like that's why I wrote a little something about October 7th and just put it out there because I wanted to express myself. I just think it's this social media debate and what it turns into is not. Never really goes well.
- [54:05]
Vivian Tu
What about the art itself? Do you think how it will be impacted by the time we're in? If you could look forward. I know. I interviewed Rachel Maddow recently and we talked a bit about her podcast about Nixon's corrupt first Vice president, Spiro Agnew. It's being adapted into a feature film. You were reportedly set to direct. Do you think about doing. Are you directing that? Is that correct?
- [54:24]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, I'm trying to get that movie made. We almost got it made a couple of years ago. I think it's more important now. Look, I think artists are Incredibly inspired now to speak out in creative ways about what's going on in our country. My daughter's an actor. She just graduated from drama school, and she's a writer, and she wants to make movies. And she said, you know, all I want to do right now is make stories about women and what they're going through because of what's going on in our country right now. So I think people are really inspired, and you're gonna see a lot of amazing art come out of it.
- [55:00]
Vivian Tu
Does it make you want to do more? Because, I mean, Angels in America came out of Reagan. Right. It came out of that anger. A lot of that art came out of things.
- [55:08]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. I think you have to be true to who you are and, you know, in terms of what you create. But, yes, for sure. And I think we all have to, like, kind of look at ourselves and say, okay, you know, what. What message are we putting out there with whatever it is we make? But even if a comedy, a drama, whatever it is, it doesn't all have to be political. It has to be true to who you are. And, you know, we're all affected by the world that we're in, so it's hopefully going to be a reflection of the experience that you're having in some way. I don't put that pressure on people to have to go out and do something. I think you have to be, you know, do what feels right for.
- [55:41]
Vivian Tu
Is there something that inspires you now at this moment? Because, I mean, do you get Feel more? I don't feel like you're gonna be making Night at the museum 7 at this point or whatever we're on. Whatever we're on.
- [55:50]
Ben Stiller
Well, I mean, honestly, though, I still think it's good to have stuff that you can watch that can make you laugh and give you a heist movie.
- [55:58]
Vivian Tu
What's it called? Heist.
- [55:59]
Ben Stiller
Oh, Tower Heist.
- [56:00]
Vivian Tu
Tower Heist was so good.
- [56:01]
Ben Stiller
Do you wanna know? You know what? We shot that in the Trump Tower.
- [56:05]
Vivian Tu
You did. I know you did.
- [56:06]
Ben Stiller
Yeah. And the movie was originally called Trump Tower Heist, but Trump wanted them to pay him for the use of his name, so they changed it to Tower Heist.
- [56:14]
Vivian Tu
Oh, wow.
- [56:15]
Ben Stiller
Well, I don't think anybody ever heard that.
- [56:17]
Vivian Tu
Oh, wow. Good to know.
- [56:18]
Ben Stiller
Sorry. Yeah. But no, look, I, like many people after the election who, you know, didn't vote for Trump, kind of wanted to just sort of hide for a moment and just not have to deal with the reality. And I think, you know, now it's sort of this moment in time where it's like, okay, this is the reality we're in. It's not the first term. We have to look at ourselves and do what we feel is right to, you know, to be who we want to be in this moment. And so I think it's. That should all be, you know, what you're expressing, and it should all be part of, you know, what you want to say. So, yeah, that movie Bagman, I'd love to get that movie made right now, because I feel like it sort of tells the story of what happens when people do the right thing in the face of somebody who's trying to, you know, go past the bounds of what their power is.
- [57:03]
Vivian Tu
Right. And Spear Ragnew is quite a character. He's such a fantastic character. That was a great podcast. I like all of Rachel's podcasts a lot.
- [57:09]
Ben Stiller
Me, too.
- [57:10]
Vivian Tu
So my last question, where we go is this idea of influences you now, or perhaps before I know your mother and father, the great Jerry Stiller and Ann Meara. She died in 2015, I think. That's right. And he died in 2020. You're working on a documentary about them right now. Can you talk a little bit about this? And I imagine they gave you a lot of advice about entertainment, business, and storytelling over the years. Is there anything about their careers, from your perspective, that endures and what influences you today?
- [57:39]
Ben Stiller
Yeah, I mean, they worked together as a comedy team. They got married in 1953, and they weren't making any money as actors, both separately, trying to, you know, get work. And then my dad came up with this idea of them doing a comedy act together about who they were. And then we were born, my sister and I, and so grew up around it all. And for me, it was. I was exploring in the movie this life of living in a household that was constantly part of their creative process, because they would work at home and they would write together, and they would perform and come home and be parents and actors. And it was all sort of intermingled. And then, of course, you grow up. And I got married and had kids and became an actor, and my kids want to be actors. And I was so literally looking at what is it inside of us that the creative process is and how that connects with relationships that we have in our life. When you do this kind of thing, when you go to an office job, you go to the office, then you want to maybe sever and not think about it. But in a life where you're a creative person, it melds through, and it's always part of who you are. So it affected my parents marriage. They stayed married for 60 plus years, but there was a lot of stress and tension in there. And I was able to. My dad recorded a lot of stuff, audio recordings, Super 8 film. And he recorded them rehearsing. And then sometimes the tape recorder would keep going and they'd get into an argument or they'd talk about what was going on in their life. So I was able to take those tapes and kind of see something that I hadn't seen in their private life together and how they navigated this relationship and their careers together.
- [59:25]
Vivian Tu
And when does that. Where is that coming out?
- [59:28]
Ben Stiller
It's gonna be Apple. Apple movies. Yeah. And it's gonna come out later this year, I think.
- [59:34]
Vivian Tu
So last question. What then influences you today about doing this from them? What did you come away with?
- [59:41]
Ben Stiller
I think I came away with a better understanding of my parents in terms of. Of my dad's creative process in particular, because he was very focused on that. And sometimes I, It. It sort of took him away from the family in a way, just kind of in his head a little bit. And I think I inherited that from him. And I think it's kind of made me look at my own relationship with my kids and my wife and have a little more perspective on that and maybe, maybe kind of, you know, I don't know, like, less angst about that because, you know, an appreciation of, like, okay, we've gotten to this place. Things have not always been perfect, but, you know, you keep evolving. And both my parents, I think, were constantly evolving and questioning themselves and looking inward. And I think that's. That's something I got out of it.
- [60:37]
Vivian Tu
All right, Ben, thank you so much. I really appreciate. Appreciate it.
- [60:40]
Ben Stiller
Great talking to you. All right, bye, Kara.
- [60:46]
Vivian Tu
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor Wisel, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you already find the show show, you get a pineapple. If not, you get the dance experience. And you do not want that experience. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.