Paramount's Hostile Bid, Elon's EU Threat, and Meta's Metaverse Cuts

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pivot

Episode: Paramount's Hostile Bid, Elon's EU Threat, and Meta's Metaverse Cuts

Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway

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Overview

This lively episode dives into seismic shifts in the tech and media landscape, centering on Paramount's high-drama hostile bid for Warner Brothers Discovery, the political and economic implications of the deal, Elon's ongoing battles with the European Union, dramatic Meta Metaverse layoffs, and broader conversations on tech consolidation, global politics, and innovation fatigue in Hollywood. Kara and Scott’s signature banter and sharp takes set the tone for a sweeping discussion that pulls no punches.

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Paramount’s Hostile Bid for Warner Brothers Discovery

The Bidding War: Players and Politics

• Paramount has launched a hostile all-cash $30/share bid for Warner Brothers Discovery (~$108B including debt), coming soon after losing out to Netflix.
• The deal's backers include Redbird, several Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds, and Jared Kushner’s Affinity Partners.
• The high-profile involvement of the Saudis, Kushner, and possible Trump influence stirs concerns about cronyism and foreign control.

Notable Quote:

“The Saudis and Jared Kushner... that’s a nice toxic cocktail of crap.”
— Kara Swisher (04:30)

Regulatory, Political, and Economic Angst

• Trump, already meeting with Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos, called for involvement and expressed concerns about market competition—an unusual move for a president.
• Senator Elizabeth Warren and Hollywood insiders slam the prospective deal as “an anti-monopoly nightmare.”
• Major breakup fees and deal conditions could dramatically impact how this plays out.

Notable Moments:

• Kara ridiculing Ellison's outsider status and lack of experience:

“David Ellison’s a very nice guy, but he’s completely inexperienced and over his skis. Like most Trump officials, he has no business running this company.”
— Kara Swisher (13:45)

• Scott calling for process-focused fairness:

“Whoever has the highest bid wins. And that’s how it should be... If they don’t, they should file a lawsuit under the Revlon laws.”
— Scott Galloway (07:23)

Antitrust Worries and Market Realities

• Scott frames a merger between Netflix and HBO as “the end of the streaming wars,” warning it would create a pricing and labor nightmare.
• Kara argues the competition is much broader—pointing to YouTube and TikTok’s dominance and Hollywood’s long-standing failure to adapt.

Market Definition Debate (16:19)

• Scott: Streaming is its own market; consolidation pushes up prices.
• Kara: YouTube and TikTok expand the competitive landscape; streaming isn’t a closed ecosystem anymore.

Notable Exchange on defining the market (18:26):

• Scott: "Do you think those [Meta/Alphabet] cases were the right decisions?"
• Kara: "Yeah, I do... They have plenty of competition. TikTok is an entertainment platform."

Hollywood’s Self-Inflicted Wounds

• Kara delivers a blistering critique of Hollywood:

"Hollywood has persisted in backing shitty economics... Instead, they blame Netflix for inevitable changes that consumers like." (12:30)

• Both hosts agree Hollywood’s reluctance to change and bloated business models paved the way for tech’s dominance.

Kara’s Rant on Hollywood (20:53):

• “Every time I go on Instagram, I go to the Today Show and do a six-minute segment and there’s 14 people in the room. I agree everyone should have jobs, but have they really sat there and thought about... who's making the things that consumers like?”

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Elon Musk vs. The European Union & SpaceX IPO Hints

[35:15–43:59]

EU Battle and Public Posturing

• Elon Musk lashes out after the EU fines X $140M for violating the Digital Services Act, even calling for the EU to be abolished.
• U.S. politicians—like Marco Rubio—frame this as an attack on American tech by foreign governments.
• Scott is dismissive:

“Who the fuck cares what he thinks? They’re not going to respond.” (36:18)

Geopolitics: Stronger EU & Ukraine

• The EU is quietly gaining independence, especially in its growing support for Ukraine—both financially and in arms production—while US influence wanes.
• "For the first time, the EU is a union again... The US has become less relevant in Ukraine." — Scott Galloway (37:02)

SpaceX IPO and the New Space Race

• SpaceX’s valuation creeps toward $800B; an IPO is expected in 2026.
• Scott predicts the next great investment “frenzy” will revolve around space, given SpaceX’s dominance ("90% share of fucking everything else of the universe." — Scott, 41:01).
• Kara credits Musk for visionary risk-taking with Starlink, despite his recent antics.

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Meta Gutting its Metaverse Division

[47:05–51:50]

$70 Billion Mistake

• Meta plans to cut up to 30% of its VR/metaverse division staff after losing more than $70B since 2020.
• Company pivots R&D funds to AR glasses and AI, and acquires AI wearable startup Limitless while inking new data agreements with major publishers.

Hosts’ Take

• Both mocked the Metaverse hype:
  • “It was all so fucking stupid. A legless universe.” — Scott (49:20)
  • “He can burn $70B... This was like a— I don't want to say a speed bump, it was definitely a pothole.” — Scott (49:27)
• Meta’s pivot to AI is deemed the correct correction—though skepticism remains about new wearable devices like AI pendants.

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News Media vs. Generative AI: The NYT Sues Perplexity

[51:43–55:34]

• New York Times sues Perplexity AI for copyright violations and distributing paywalled stories without permission.
• Kara and Scott argue traditional media still shapes the original narrative, even if their economic power wanes:
  • “The coal—the raw content that shapes all of this—comes from the NYT, Washington Post, CBS News.” — Scott (53:08)
• Scott calls for media giants to unite against AI scrapers—despite legal and antitrust concerns.

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Winners & Fails

[58:13–61:41]

Kara

• Win: Shoutout to Golden Globe podcast nominees—even if Pivot isn’t among them.
• Fail: Hollywood’s ongoing refusal to adapt: “They’re always fighting the last war... make yourselves an economic world where you can do what you want, instead of blaming Netflix.” (59:37)

Scott

• Win: Praises US military tradition of “offering quarter” and contrasts it with wartime atrocities—emphasizing humanity and intelligence value (61:06).
• Fail: Rants on empty political rhetoric about “affordability,” suggesting real solutions:
  • Build 8M homes,
  • Universal healthcare (“Medicare-like option”),
  • Tuition reform,
  • Aggressive antitrust to combat industry consolidation.

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Notable Quotes

• “The only qualification is that [Ellison]’s friends with Trump and his daddy has money.” — Kara (13:50)
• “When you have consolidation and concentration of power, it benefits the shareholders... but A, it raises prices, and B, it leaks leverage from labor.” — Scott (09:41)
• “You had a chance to change yourselves two decades ago when this started... Instead of insulting Netflix, maybe you could have copied it.” — Kara (21:18)

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Key Timestamps

• Paramount/Warner Bidding War, Tech Cronyism: 03:00 – 20:00
• Market Definition, Consolidation, and the Future of Hollywood: 16:06 – 31:47
• EU/US Tech Clash, Geopolitics, SpaceX: 35:15 – 43:59
• Meta Metaverse Layoffs & New AI Focus: 47:05 – 51:50
• Media vs. AI: NYT vs. Perplexity: 51:43 – 55:34
• Winners & Fails: 58:13 – 61:41
• Scott’s Policy Rant & Housing Fixes: 61:06 – end

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Tone & Takeaways

Kara and Scott bring sharp, energetic, and at times scathing analysis to the news, blending industry-savvy observations, cutting humor, and (occasionally) optimism for visionaries able to disrupt the status quo. Paramount’s power play is another act in the unrelenting saga of tech/political/entertainment mergers, with deep implications for consumers, labor, and the creative economy. Hollywood’s inertia, the dominance of big tech platforms, and the questionable alliances fueling these deals are all under withering scrutiny.

Final word: The only certainty: more upheaval, more consolidation, and no shortage of sharp Pivot commentary to come.

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(Ads, intros, and outros have been excluded in accordance with summarization guidelines.)

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

I had death threats from, like, the writers of SpongeBob SquarePants.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

How was your weekend, Scott?

[Scott Galloway]

How was my weekend? Yeah, it was pretty. I don't think I left that house. It was kind of pathetic.

[Kara Swisher]

He didn't go to Christmas parties?

[Scott Galloway]

Uh, no, not Christmas parties.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you're a bad king, Wenceslas.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I went to 5 Hertford, where finance bros and the Russians who love them go. What? Really? Yeah, it's a club, a private members club.

[Kara Swisher]

I went to a Ukrainian resistance party, which was great.

[Scott Galloway]

Same, same. Ukrainian resistance party, private members club in London.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know, same thing. It was cool. It was a. It was a restaurant here. Who. It's a Ukrainian restaurant raising money for Ukrainian issues. But it was fun. It was all the Ukrainian food and it was a great bunch of speeches by reporters and stuff. That was cool.

[Scott Galloway]

I think they should start referring to everything, referring to Ukraine as NATO. NATO, which we spent a shit ton of money on. The core mission of NATO was to repel a European invasion by Russia.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And that is what Ukraine is doing. I was thinking over the week, what is the fucking point of NATO, Kara, if they're not in Ukraine right now?

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right.

[Scott Galloway]

What's the point?

[Kara Swisher]

What's the point? Yeah, I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

What's the point?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, we should be there, but we've got an incredibly corrupt admin who's hand in glove with the Russians. There's a lot to get to today, though. Let's get to news because there's so much going on. Scott. Paramount is launching a hostile bid to buy Warner Brothers Discovery after it lost out to Netflix. Paramount is going to Warner Brothers shareholders with an all cash$30 per share offer, valuing the company at around 108 billion, including debt. That would be for all of Warner Brothers studio streaming and cable networks, including cnn. There's various valuations for the cable networks and cnn. They, they valued at a dollar and others valued it from three to five dollars. David Ellison has appeared on CNBC a little while ago with resting White Lotus broface saying we're really here to finish what we started. Let's listen to what he said about whether Trump is in his corner.

[Scott Galloway]

What I would say is I'm incredibly grateful for the relations that I have with the president. And I also believe he believes in competition. And when you fundamentally look at the marketplace, allowing the number one streaming service to combine with the number three streaming service is anti competitive.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. The person who's touting his relationship with Trump and has the Saudis and Jared Kushner in his deal is worried about unfairness. Meanwhile, before Paramount moved, Donald Trump said Netflix acquisition of Warner Brothers could be a problem. It's a normal thing to say. He didn't say anything wrong there given the combined market share. But not to worry. He plans to be, quote, involved in decision. He also. I know, right? Like presidents never do this.

[Scott Galloway]

They're supposed to. That's the whole point. You're not supposed to be involved.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. Trump also confirmed. Of course he is confirmed. He can't stay out of this one. Come on. Recently, he met with Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos. The White House calling Ted fantastic. Sarandos said last week he was confident the deal would be approved because it's pro consumer and pro innovation. But politicians on both sides are expressing concern. Senator Elizabeth Warren called it an anti monopoly nightmare. We haven't seen what she says about the Ellison bid yet. I'm sure she's just as mad as that about that. One Hollywood is also up in arms with many warning the deal could negatively impact jobs in movie production. Ah, where do we start? Let's start with the hostile takeover, I guess, because that's some recent news. Paramount's bid is backed, as I said, by Redbird. That's Jerry Cardinale. Three Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds, as well as affinity partners, which is Jared Kushner's private equity firms. Nothing to see here, folks. There's a lot to see here. The Saudis and Jared Kushner. That's a nice toxic cocktail of crap. Trump, whether he's gonna weigh in here. Of course he is. There's also a $5.8 billion breakup fee that Netflix will pay if the deal falls apart. I don't know if they have. If they pick another.

[Scott Galloway]

I was thinking about that, too. I don't think so. I think it.

[Kara Swisher]

Of course not.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So why don't. Why don't you start. I've got lots of things to say, but why don't you go first? Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

It's going to sound strange, but what David Ellison said there I actually think is right. I don't particularly want the family that's going to potentially control TikTok and is trying to. Is engaging in open cronyism by saying we can get this approved because my. My dad has his finger up the ass of the President. I just don't. That's wrong. But what he's saying on a macro level is, I think, correct. Let me walk you through my emotional rollercoaster. I thought, oh, my God, like, I was so dumb to count Ted Sarandos and Netflix out. I thought that Paramount was going to walk away with it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And do you want to say Kara was right here? No, go ahead, Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you think Netflix.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you get it? I did not think Paramount was going to get it. I thought it was.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, the fat lady is not song here, so.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, so.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, the first round, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

So. But, you know, you never want to underestimate Ted Sarandos. It ends up that Ted very deftly flew to Washington and had an hour sit down with the President. And Ted, if anything, is incredibly likable. And he doesn't come across as political, he comes across as super smart. You just like the guy. And he's also probably one of the most. I don't even say underrated, but one of the most seminal figures in technology and media in the last 20 years. What they've done there is just nothing.

[Kara Swisher]

Short of with him and Reed Hastings. Let's give him credit too.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, Reid, I would say Reid is like the visionary, but Ted and his other co CEO have been probably the best operators in media. They're just very good. And so he pops up and all of a sudden I see pictures. I'm like, oh my God, that's Sly Fox just snuck into the hen house when no one was looking. And then Ellison goes hostile. And actually I think other than the President saying he's going to be very involved in taking meetings, I think the president's sort of saying the President said one thing that is absolutely true and correct and I hope he sticks to it. And that is whoever has the highest bid wins. And that's how it should be. Whoever shows up with the biggest check should get this. And if they don't, they should file a lawsuit under the Revlon laws. But I personally think we talk a lot about affordability.

I mean there's a few things around affordability, whether it's lower education, lower healthcare costs, but also a key component to affordability. We don't like to talk about it because it's boring. Is competition. And if you let Netflix and HBO combine, you're basically taking Walmart and putting LVMH on top of it. And you have 300 million at Netflix, 130 million at HBO. Now there's some crossover there, but I think basically the streaming wars, some people would argue, well, no, it's about YouTube but how we traditionally think about streaming. That war is over if HBO and Netflix are allowed to merge. So I don't like this. I'd like to see it go to Comcast or to be blocked with Netflix. I mean, this is just an antitrust nightmare. Who will not matter. And then I'll turn it back to you, whatever the fuck, sag, AFTRA or Bryan Cranston or name your star that's going to start virtue signaling after they get 40 million a year for their shit. No one cares what they think. We'll nod, but you know they would call their agent if ISIS started a streaming network, if as Ricky Gervais said so they will be a total non factor here. I'd like to think it's just going to go to the highest bidder. I'd also like to think that the economists of the DOJ and the FTC go, all right, is Netflix going to be able to extract unfair pricing from consumers and. And if they're the only game in town, Back end, back end revenues are already off the table. There's no more Seinfeld deals anymore.

[Kara Swisher]

But that's what they were doing before. This is what Holly was mad about. You go finish and then I have a lot to say about this.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, My point is, when you have consolidation and concentration of power, it benefits the shareholders of those. Of those. Those. The winners of that concentration. But A, it reduces. It creates a lack of leverage for the consumer so prices go up, and B, it leaks strength and leverage and compensation from labor to shareholders. So to a certain extent, I would like to see anyone but Comcast or potentially unfortunately, Paramount because they're subscale. I'd like to see the deal blocked. And I love Ted Saranos and I love Netflix.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, here's what I think. First of all, it's a bigger market. Like, look, the two cases, the core cases I'm going to start with that, that just got lost by the Department of Justice was there's plenty of competition for Facebook and Meta and there's plenty of competition for Google. Right. They've lost those because the whole landscape has changed. You sort of pushed off YouTube. YouTube is where everybody streams. I'm sorry, look at the statistic. If you look at any of the watching data, YouTube is far and away the most important way, especially young people get their news and information. So you're leaving out the fact that YouTube is enormous here and is the actual competitor. Secondly, there's tons of different. You can't like, say streaming is its own thing anymore. Everything is. TikTok is part of that. So is Instagram. So it's. The market is so dissipated that nobody gets a thing. Like, it doesn't. Nobody gets control of anything. I think there's plenty of competition and I think Netflix has a very good case to be made that there's lots of competition. That's one, two. I don't know. I just got over the weekend, some Trump people contacted me and they were like, what do you think? And I said, I think, you know, backing the winner is what he'll do. And so you noticed him saying Ted was fantastic and he wasn't Pro Ellison necessarily. Right. He just said competition, which is the right thing to say. And so, you know, Trump's very interested in Netflix because he thinks they're winners. And let me just tell you, Hollywood, I'm so sorry to tell you, but they have won because many years ago, 15 years ago, Jeff Bugas called them the Albanian army. Do you remember that? Like, they. Who are they? Hollywood has persisted in backing shitty economics, like really shitty economics for themselves. They overpay themselves. Just everything they do is all about Their feathering their own nests. And we talk about that with David Zaslav and others. It's never about figuring out what's next. Instead, they blame Netflix for inevitable changes that consumers like. So the problem isn't Netflix. The problem is Hollywood didn't modernize itself fast enough and stayed in the same old economics, the same old padding of the backs, et cetera. So it just is like, I don't know if I think there's much more competition for them than you think. Secondly, they've changed the game. They have. But Hollywood certainly had every opportunity to do so and were warned. So I put up. I'm gonna finish my rant in a second. But I put up an interview I did with Reed Hastings, Jason Cuyler, Reed Hastings, who ran Netflix, Jason Cuyler, and Chad Hurley that I did at Sundance in 2009. And I was like, companies are going to change everything. They put us in a basement, Scott, and yelled at us for saying it was obvious this is going to be a streaming environment. This is going to. All the economics are wrong the way you people pay yourselves. They stuck us in a basement and we were like, fine. These are the companies that are going to take over everything. So to me, it's Hollywood's own fault for their ridiculous salaries the way they. The economics are. So they're like, it would make, you know, it would make a third, you know, an Eastern bloc country blush in terms of the corruption, I think that goes on there. That said, I like a lot, I think, but I. And I also think there's lots of different entertainment happening, like in podcasts and everywhere else. So there's lots of choices. The, the, the thing about the Paramount bit is this is a group of people who's. It's subpar. It's sub small. It's too small, by the way. And they have an. They have an existential crisis because it's all. It's like a rich kid buying a yacht. This is a yacht for this kid. And you would, you would, you know, think about the track record here. It's good to know how to run a public entertainment company before buying a very important one, I think. I'm sorry. David Ellison's a very nice guy, but he's completely inexperienced and over his skis. Like most Trump officials, he has no business running this company. I'm sorry, he just doesn't. But he gets played constantly. He gets in fights, stupid fights with people. It's just, he's. The only qualification is he's friends with Trump and his daddy has Money.

And he makes bad decisions one after the next. So that's another thing. I mean, I don't really care if he wants to blow his fortune. All power to him. But he's not the best owner of this. It's a non economic thing, bringing in the Middle east and sovereign wealth funds. No thank you. I don't think so. And Jared Kushner, double. No thank you. And the last thing I would say is that Comcast is the bidder that should get this. Cause they really need to bulk up and they are really good operators. It would make perfect sense and it would be, they could spin. CNN should be spun off the way Versant was and then let's figure that part out. But what David Ellison was trying to do here was try to get this on the cheap. And it didn't work. Right. That's what he was doing. And Netflix, very deftly, by someone who is an experienced operator, came in and did an end run around him because I'm sorry, David, you're not very smart about any of this stuff. And you just. The fact that him going on and on about UNF fairness is. I'm like, listen, Richie Rich, it's not happening. Call Cadbury the butler and let him explain economics to you. So I just don't, I don't see. I think Netflix has plenty to push back and I don't think they would have moved forward if they didn't think they had either a legal chance, which I think they absolutely do, or an in with Trump, which from what I can understand from the Trump people, there's a lot against this, but there's a lot of people who see that Trump needs to, to, to be a little bit for this too. So it's not a done deal in that regard. But they of course were going to do this. No matter how you slice it, they were going to try to make it into something. So that's my rant.

[Scott Galloway]

Thank you a lot there. So let's start with. It doesn't matter whether David Ellison would be a good owner or a bad owner. We don't get to decide that. And that's socialism. If all of a sudden we start making value judgments on who should own something or who should I just say.

[Kara Swisher]

He'S inexperienced, he'll do a terrible job, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I'm an AT&T is allowed to buy Time Warner and realize it was a stupid idea and sell it. Agree.

[Kara Swisher]

I didn't say he couldn't. I'm just telling you he would be. Hollywood will be sorry if it gets him.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, okay, so I am sympathetic to one argument and not to the other. The argument that you're making is around market definition. And what you're saying is that the way we would define the market in front of a, if it goes to the Supreme Court is that, no, it's not the market for streaming, it's the market for eyeballs and all entertainment and all videos. I think that's a really good argument. I personally think that, I think it's its own category. I do think that premium streaming, where you acquire subscribers and they pay a monthly subscription fee, I do think that qualifies as its own market. And I get the argument, and I'm sympathetic to it, that YouTube is the biggest streamer. I get it. I've even said that before. But saying that.

To a certain extent, comparing HBO and Netflix to YouTube is a little bit like saying, well, there are three companies that control all the poultry right now and prices continue to rise faster than inflation. So we should break up big chicken, which I think we should do. And then the chicken people would say, we're not competing against each other, we're competing against beef, poultry, kale, granola. So I do think streaming is its own definitive market. And I think the evidence of that, Kara, is that as the market has begun to consolidate a few years ago, pricing has gone way up, pricing and streaming is accelerating. So I don't look at this as.

By far the best operator and the nicest guy and the best American in my view of all of this is Ted Sarandos. I don't think that's how you decide this. I think you decide who the highest bidder is. And then the FTC and the DOJ economists go, will this extract substantial leverage in capital from labor and consumers to the shareholders of the oligopoly here? And I believe that there's a very solid case. As much as I don't, I'm not fond of the Ellisons, that it would be good to have a bulked up Paramount, a bulked up Comcast, and it might present a leakage of power and leverage and capital from labor and consumers to shareholders. If you let the Netflix Warner Brothers.

[Kara Swisher]

Deal go through again, I think you cannot leave YouTube out of this. You just can't. And I think that's their. I think that's the race in the whole. Is showing the.

[Scott Galloway]

What show are you watching on YouTube?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm just telling you usage time. I get that. But I think streaming is part of every decision that's recently been made by judges on this stuff talks about a broader landscape. That's why Facebook got out of its jam and that's why.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you think those are the right decisions?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I do, actually. I was with them.

[Scott Galloway]

So you don't think Facebook is a monopoly? You don't think Facebook should have.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they were and I think they leveraged it. But no, I don't. I don't, I don't. I've said that over and over again. I think they are abusive of the power they have, but I don't. I think there's plenty. They have plenty of competition. I think TikTok is an entertainment platform and I think it takes up people's. However you extract money from people, whether it's through advertising or subscription, it's the same difference to me. And so I think that they. What's interesting is where Disney is on this, you know, and, you know, I suspect they're sitting on the sidelines going, oh, for fuck's sake. I actually know this. That they. Where do they go? Like, it seems to me you're gonna see a lot like, look, if Netflix does get Warner, Paramount's gotta do a deal with someone, whatever. Unless they just wanna spend Dad's money, which he certainly can do. But they're too small, right? And this was something many years ago I said. I was like, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Disney's too small. And so where does Disney go, to me, is really interesting. This is what's gonna happen for the next couple years, these consolidations, whether you like it or not. And look, I really think this bringing in the Qataris and the Saudis and Jared Kushner tells me everything I need to know here kind of thing. It's really quite grotesque. I don't think the Saudis should be owning any of our news organizations. I'm sorry, they shouldn't. And neither should the French. Neither should Saudis more than the French. But in any case, it just doesn't create talk about global news. Like, why aren't we discussing what's gonna happen to CNN if it's merged with cnn? Why isn't that as important as the streaming market? And so I just feel like it's. None of these choices are great, but it's inevitable that consolidation is going to happen whether Hollywood likes it or not. I don't mean to be hostile, Hollywood, but they sat on their fucking hands. Well, this. This is not a new fresh thing.

[Scott Galloway]

And what would you. I can't believe I'm defending Hollywood, but what would. What Would you have had Hollywood do quote, unquote? I assume you mean the creative community.

[Kara Swisher]

The creative community has watched this slow moving, like growth of net. First of all, they disdained it, tried to be covering it. At the time I was at.

I.

[Scott Galloway]

Had death threats from like the writers of Square Squares.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I know that. Well, you had the same thing. It's like, you know, with the writers, we need 19 people in the room. Like, even as I do stuff today for CNN and other thing, I'm always like, what are you here for?

[Scott Galloway]

What are you people doing here?

[Kara Swisher]

What are all these people doing here? Every time I go on Instagram, go.

[Scott Galloway]

To the Today show and do a six minute segment and there's 4, 14 people in the room, Mike.

[Kara Swisher]

And I'm sorry, I agree that everyone should have jobs, but have they really sat there and thought about. And the other thing is, this is where I go to ultimately is like, who's making the things that consumers like guess, which grew, by the way. One of the things I think that is affecting Trump here is his son and wife like Netflix, right? Like they use it. What do consumers like? What has been better for consumers? Probably Netflix, right? Like what precisely. I just think it's just a time that this is. I'm so sorry to tell you, but you had a chance to change yourselves two decades ago when this started to happen. Instead of insulting Netflix, maybe you could have copied it. Maybe you could have done more mergers or more technology stuff. Maybe you should have said, maybe our economics are insane. Like, why are we paying? I'm sorry to say, I have a lot of friends who are anchors and get these millions of dollars to these anchors when this is when the audience was declining. Like, to me, it's not their own fault, but it really is from an economic point. And then why do you let David Zaslav have these massive salaries? Why does this go on? Essentially, I'm happy to have tech people actually get in here a little bit in some ways. But one of the things that I'll tell you drives me crazy about this Ellison bid is I was at that meeting where they introduced it and they kept saying, we're going to take tech and change things. And I was like, huh? Specifically. And they're like, tech change things. AI. I was like, huh, Right? How Right? And so I would like some, if they put out a very clear, this is our plan. We're very transparent, all of them. I'd like to see it like, what their plans are still. I think Comcast should have it all. That's My feeling, because I think they're, I think they have the right things. And you spin off cnn, maybe they merge with Versant, but they, let me just tell you, the news organizations, to get as much consideration here as Larry Ellison and the Saudis, should not control CNN, CBS and TikTok. Sorry, that's just as bad as the stream. It's worse than the streaming business. So anyway, that's where I am on this.

[Scott Galloway]

So it's interesting. It's usually you and I are in different positions. I usually am on your position as kind of the capitalist argument. And I would argue I'm taking kind of the antitrust or the labor.

Consumer argument here. But I think at the end of the day, the decision should be based on an analysis of what has happened in terms of pricing power and typically actually the courts, while they've made decisions around Alphabet and Meta, basically letting them go ahead or are having factless remedies in terms of after they find them guilty of monopoly power and saying, okay, here you have to pay $10. The primary. Typically court cases lose nanny trust when they go from four to three. And that's what's going to happen here. They don't like the consolidation going to this level. Also, I think at the end of the day, the ultimate litmus test for whether the concentration has gone overboard here is in pricing. And in the last year, you've seen on average, among the big five, I guess, streamers, they've raised their prices 12.6%, which is vastly outpacing inflation. So what I would like to see is good economists say, what is going to happen here over the next five or 10 years with three players, instead of saying, no, we don't want just three players in this market, your argument will be the big one. And that is what defines this market and who is included in that. But I do think there's a pretty big distinction psychologically in terms of consumption, in terms of business model and revenue and why people go to each of these platforms between. I get that everyone's competing for eyeballs at some point. I get that. But I do think these are different markets.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I don't, I don't. I just, I watch people as they're shifting and the time spent that to me, it is, by the way, these, these markets have to consolidate. I'm sorry to say there are, there are too many costs and they have to consolidate. It is not something there's. It's, it's going to consolidate. It doesn't really matter. And one of the things that's interesting is the Trump administration through its lawyer, Macon Delrahim, who now works for Paramount. This is one of his moves. Like it feels still making all over the place here was to say AT and T couldn't buy Warner. Right. Which set off this whole thing, by the way, which is kind of think about it. So they lost and all the things that they said were gonna happen never happened. Like all these things.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, they were trying to bulk up against the digital guys.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Scott Galloway]

I was on record as saying it's ridiculous to get in the way of that. Can I just go through the pricing here?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So let's look at the big five. Apple TV, HBO, Hulu, Disney. And I'm going to do 2019 prices versus 2025, six years. Right. In 2019, Netflix was $12.99. Now it's $18. Disney ad free in 2019 when it launched was 7 bucks. Now it's 19. Hulu with ads has gone from 6 bucks to 10 bucks. HBO Max standard ad free has gone from 15 bucks to 1850. And Apple TV plus has gone from 5 bucks to 13 bucks. So it appears even with just five players who aren't bulked up, their pricing power has been extraordinary. And again, I want to see economists go, okay, at some point there's too much transfer of power from consumers and labor to shareholders in a concentrated oligopolistic environment.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Except that these prices are going up because this costs too much. Right. They're selling ice cream that costs a dollar for 50 cents. Right. They had to get into there's. Aren't you the same with AI right now? The amount of money they're spending for their revenue streams and eventually they're going to start charging us more. That's obvious. But they are over. They had overspent. The reason Hollywood overspent so much is because they waited so long to compete with Netflix. I kept going, you need to pay attention to Netflix. Hey, over here. And they didn't because they liked their town cars and their flowers and their first class tickets and their entourages and their staffs. Like it was so exhausting to deal with Hollywood. And in some ways, tech was a relief to deal with. Not now, but they were for sure. And so I just feel like these prices are going to go up anyway. And there's still, even if there are five, they're going to go up until everything settles on what it costs and what they spend. Right. And that's. And where people are going. And I think leaving, I think their greatest argument here for Netflix is YouTube. YouTube.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, no doubt. That's the argument they'll make.

[Kara Swisher]

You need to watch what Apple and Amazon and Disney are going to do. You have to think of what's next. And there's going to be handing it over to Nepo Mogul. Fine, whatever, if you want to do that. But next is going to be another one of these and another one. So we have to figure out what that means and then what we can extract from these companies, like Netflix, in order to help consumers. Right. What can we actually get? But I don't think the Trump administration is interested in any of that, like, helping consumers whatsoever. I don't think they're interested. And honestly, of all people to argue for antitrust. The Ellisons really aren't the ones to be doing it. It's sort of like it's laughable on some level. But fine, they can do whatever they want to do. It's just, I don't think the Trump administration is even slightly interested in consumer pricing whatsoever.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I think he's positioning it such that they both get so close to the finish line and get so hot and bothered that he says, I need whoever gives me a quarter of a billion dollars for the Trump Presidential disco. He gets this or I give a nod to the DOJ or the ftc.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly. The whole thing is so fucked up because it's so corrupt, and Jared Kushner's should not be in this. I mean, what a ridiculous. This guy can't keep his finger out of any fucking pie. It's really kind of like. Like grotesque in some ways. And of course, that makes this even. That's why I'm like, are you kidding me? You're adding the Saudis and Jared Kushner? Who are you? Who have you not entered into, like, you want to give something to see Bannon? Like, who do you want to like? I'm just like, what loathsome crony do you want?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, it's just when you. When you have. When you have an $85 billion check, there are very few people domestic. Just that you need to bring in a lot of checkbooks for that.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, but why that checkbook? There's plenty of check. They have Apollo. That guy's smart. So, I don't know. We'll see. It'll be a really interesting battle royale. And of course, I don't think they care about consumers whatsoever.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't trust my instincts around this any longer because I got this one wrong. What do you think is going to end up happening here?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, One of the things that I think someone told me and I was that I think Sarandos has frozen his competition for a little while. Like, everybody's frozen now, which I think is brilliant. Right? He's ahead and he's. Look, the stock is suffering, obviously, but I think he's frozen. I'm always on, I always am. Like, what did Netflix do? And then it turns out to be the smart thing. I like their ballsiness. I like they take risks. When they did the discs to streaming boy, was that a fucking existential moment? And then they said, no advertising. Okay, we're gonna do advertising. We're not really gonna do deals. Which was a fucking head fake. A fantastic head fake. Oh, we're doing the deal.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I think they believed it at the time.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I don't. It's been reported it was a head fake. They were doing this.

[Scott Galloway]

No, no, no. I mean. I mean, over the last 10 years, they have not been acquisitive.

[Kara Swisher]

No, they haven't.

[Scott Galloway]

Build versus buy.

[Kara Swisher]

The recent one was a head fake. But I think he's frozen the situation in place beautifully. And we'll see where it goes. I think this is gonna take forever.

[Scott Galloway]

It's gonna be a couple years.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. And so that's smart in and of itself. That's smart. But let me tell you, Hollywood, buckle the fuck up. Because this is the beginning of what is a massive change in how Hollywood is made. And it has to happen. I'm sorry, I know you're all gonna now hate me like you hate Scott, but I'm sorry to tell you, you had the chance to change it a long time ago and didn't take that chance. And you know, they'll talk about creativity and I agree with that. But I don't think creativity goes away. It's just this is what's gonna happen because this is the industry that has not innovated nearly enough as a group of people. I think actually press has innovated more than Hollywood has, I would say media certainly has. Has not enough either. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Elon calls for the EU to be abolished.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from Grammarly. AI tools are everywhere, all aimed at making your life easier. But ironically, many of them create more work, taking up even more of your time. Well, not Grammarly. They want to introduce you to their new AI productivity suite that gives you you superpowers everywhere you work. Say hello to Superhuman. Superhuman is the AI productivity suite that effectively gives you superpowers everywhere you work. With the intelligence of Grammarly, mail and coda built in. You can get things done faster and collaborate seamlessly. That means it's not your standard efficiency solution. It's AI that works where you work. However you work. Superhuman knows what you might need and proactively offers suggestions to improve when drafting emails, creating documents, and so much more. That means you go from to do to done faster, so you'll have the ability to stand out. No learning curve, just simple and easy to use. That's what efficiency looks like. Get AI that works where you work. Unlock your Superhuman potential. Learn [e-mail] podcast that's superhuman.com podcast.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from Framer if you run a business, you need a website. Ensure. You could pay for one of those cookie cutter site builders, but you'll end up with a website that looks like everyone else's. If you want to go a step further and get into TrueDesign, you could try Framer. Framer already built the fastest way to publish beautiful production ready websites and it's now redefining how we design for the web. With the recent launch of Design Pages, a free canvas based design tool, Framer is more than a site builder. It's a true all in one design platform. From social assets to campaign visuals to vectors and icons all the way to a live site, Framer is where ideas go live start to finish. Framer can even help you design more than websites. Create social assets, campaign visuals, icons and even site resources all in one place. Ready to design, iterate and publish all in one tool. Start creating for [e-mail] design and use the code Pivot for a free month of framer pro. That's framer.com design and use promo code pivot framer.com design promo code pivot Rules and restrictions may apply.

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Scott we're back. These meddlesome kids. Elon Musk is denying reports that SpaceX is holding a share sale that would value the company at $800 billion. He posted on X over the weekend that SpaceX has been cash flow positive for years and only runs twice yearly stock buybacks to give employees investor liquidity. But the latest valuation might be a sign of what's ahead for the company's future. SpaceX has informed investors it plans to pursue an IPO in 2026, according to the information.

I don't believe anything Elon says, so whatever. Elon's also spending his time because this is an important thing calling for the European Union to be abolished. This comes after the EU fined x $140 million for violating its Digital Services Act. Regulators called the Blue Check verification system deceptive and also criticized the lack of transparency in X's ads. Secretary of State Marco Rubio called this EU fine an attack on all American tech platforms and American people by foreign governments. Sit down, Marco. Little Marco. And are we about to see an US EU showdown? I think people in Europe are quite nervous, I suspect. Thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

I think the EU is just fine. I mean, first off, Musk wants them to. Who the fuck cares? I mean, I don't think anyone's going to lose any sleep over what he thinks.

[Kara Swisher]

I think there's going to be another Brexit referendum. If I was your Keir Starmer, that's what I'd do. I'd say let's do Brexit again.

[Scott Galloway]

You mean a reverse Brexit?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, reverse Brexit. Let's bring it up for a vote. I think I could save his ass anyway.

[Scott Galloway]

So, by the way, just to be clear, just in terms of fact checking here, Netflix didn't merge with Warner Brothers. They basically slid into Warner's DMs at 3:00am you up? And Warner Brothers said yes before checking who else was in the room.

[Kara Swisher]

Do I get to run the studio? Do I get to swan around? Says Dave. By the way, Dave gets the prize here. Dave wins no matter What? Zaslav, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, God. I just hope this thing gets stretched out 15 years so he'll be 90 trying to spend that money. I actually think the EU has really stepped up and I have a tendency to look at, look at everything through the lens of Ukraine. And for too long the EU didn't have his act together, expecting Big Brother to provide this military umbrella and didn't pay their fair share, especially Spain and a couple other countries. And they are getting their act together and they've basically said, America, I love America. Comes up with a peace plan that is basically parroting Sergey Lavrov's talking points, like this is what Russia wants and this is a plan we want. And the nice thing about this is it doesn't really fucking matter because America is still relevant in that it still has surface to air defense systems that are really important. But the EU industrial base is actually pretty strong, revving up, producing really good weapons. They have stepped up in terms of financial support for Ukraine and quite frankly, the US has withdrawn financial support. And all they really do is sell weapons bought, purchased from, from the EU and deliver them to Ukraine. And a couple times they've stopped. JD Vance has gotten in the way of those arm shipments. But my point is the US has become less and less relevant in Ukraine. And I think the EU is for the first time a union again. And that is, I think the Ukraine war. One of the many benefits of this, in terms of occupying the space they command, is that the EU is trying to get along and be more coordinated.

So I don't think Musk saying, I think it's meaningless. I think it's him gasping to control the news cycle on something that's meaningless. They're not going to respond. Why should they?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think that's right now, the going public, they're obviously at some point going public. He likes the money and it's a good way for him to get the liquidity, I suppose, to do other nefarious things. I think they're probably going public this year as well. They as many people think they are with the EU stuff. I'm not kidding about rethinking Brexit. I think this is the time most people in England think it's a mistake, was a mistake, so why not go and revisit it? It would give Starmer a lot of power and defocused from his negatives, which are quite high from what I understand. But the idea that Europe as a union should be without the US as its sugar daddy is a great idea. I think I think it just.

You know, and also there'll always be a cross purposes over. I mean Marco Rubio's statement could have been made by Obama made a similar statement many years ago like how dare they regulate our tech platforms. And that's fine and good except we never regulate them. So maybe if we had a little bit more control over our tech moguls, maybe they wouldn't have to do this and go so far as they tend to do. That's just my feeling.

[Scott Galloway]

I mean I agree the rejoin pathway the UK would have to start from scratch because every member nation would now have to approve it and some may hesitate. The UK would be expected to comply with a full body of EU laws and regulations.

Already the UK government by the way Starmer has publicly ruled out a return to the EU and so like it just. I agree it makes sense at a 30,000 foot level but I think the politics here make it. The unwinding was so complicated.

That it's probably not going to happen in terms of SpaceX, you know and we're going to do a predictions episode but I think the new AI in terms of a frenzy around cheap capital and some stocks just going apeshit next year is in one word is going to be space. And.

If I were the IR, the head of IR for SpaceX, I would basically just have one talking point and that is okay, meta, you own 2/3 of all social media on this thing called planet Earth Alphabet, 90% of searches on planet Earth. Amazon, 50% of E commerce and a small piece of Planet Earth called E Commerce. We at SpaceX have 90% share of fucking everything else of the universe. 100,000 galaxies, the 10 million universes. We have 90% of launch capability, we control two thirds of the satellites. And space is transitioning from narcissism and Katy Perry going into space and billionaires and space tourism, which was just fucking stupid. And it's moving to connectivity which will be.

Communications, satellite communications and then the next frontier where I, if I could find the right companies, the next huge space I think is going to be space defense.

Anyways, my point is it's already happening in SpaceX.

If you look at what happened in terms of the plummeting price and processing power, the increase in bandwidth, all of these things. The next seminal figure we're all going to talk about and have some sort of musk law or Moore's Law is that essentially the cost to get a kilogram of material into space because of the Falcon Heavy or whatever they call it has declined by 90%.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. No, let me pay Elon. I remember when he started talking about putting up all those.

Low orbit satellites at the time. I remember having a conversation and there were two people who were doing this. Oddly enough, it was Elon who I talked to about it quite a bit. And Jerry Yang had a company like this, interestingly, after he left Yahoo. And I was really riveted to this idea. And it was such at the. I can't underscore how much of a risk it was at the time, by the way, everybody, this was. I know y' all hate Elon, but I have to tell you, this was a great, a great move, like, really in terms of thinking ahead, like nine steps when he had his mind not so fucked up.

[Scott Galloway]

Visionary, bold, risky.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's decrepit now, but at the time it was really something unusual and there were only a few people talking about it. And Jeff Bezos was sort of talking about rockets, but not really. Not like this. Not on this, like very Kuiper.

[Scott Galloway]

But.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, well, they do now, but I'm just saying it wasn't this sort of systemic. Put these low orbit satellites in. And again, Jerry Yang had a company too, and I don't know what happened to it, but those are the two people I discussed it with. And this was a long. Anyway, I think it has to go public. I think he's got to continue his lead and continue pushing forward. He lost his lead in Tesla despite the ST going up. He's definitely lost his lead. He shouldn't lose his lead here. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, meta makes cuts to the Metaverse. What a surprise.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from darktrace. Defenders in cybersecurity are always there when we need them, keeping the systems that run our daily lives safe from bad actors. Darktrace, they think defenders everywhere deserve a bigger spotlight for keeping the lights on. They deserve blockbuster movies about breaches that never happened and they should get a parade every time they block a novel threat. But most of all, they deserve AI cybersecurity that can stop novel threats before they become breaches across email, clouds, networks and more. That's why Darktrace is going beyond for cyber defenders, such as IT decision makers, CISOs and cybersecurity professionals to give them the power to see across their entire attack surface and stop the threats other platforms miss. Darktrace is the cybersecurity defenders deserve. And the one they need to defend beyond the world needs defenders. Defenders need Darktrace. Visit darktrace.com defenders for more information.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when certain surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. How does that work? You sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. And it's not a one time thing. DeleteMe will constantly monitor remove personal information you don't want on the Internet. Throughout the year I've gotten to use Deleteme and I really enjoyed it. I think their dashboard is really, really easy to read. I've always been surprised every time I go in there and see all of what they found in their sweeps. It's all these people I'd never heard of putting together all my information. Sometimes inaccurately, sometimes quite accurately. But bringing it together is really disturbing. But it's really important to have control of your data. Wirecutter named Delete Me, no surprise, is their top pick for data removal services. It's very easy to use. You can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and use the promo code Pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter code pivot at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot codepivot.

Support for this.

[Scott Galloway]

Show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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Scott we're back with more news. Meta is considering cutting up to 30% of employees in his Metaverse unit which work on VR headsets. Since 2020, the division has lost more than $70 billion. Metal reportedly shift savings from the cuts to its augmented reality glasses, which are very fun things, but kind of, I think, minor. But meanwhile, in the other latest Meta AI moves, Meta is acquiring AI wearable startup Limitless, which makes a small AI pendant that can record conversations and generate summaries. And the company has struck several commercial AI data agreements with news publishers like cnn, Fox and USA Today to provide real time answers to queries while compensating publishers. I guess the $70 billion loss, I mean, you in particular, and me too, thought the Metaverse was idiotic. I love that you can make a mistake like this. Mark Zuckerberg can afford to make these $70 billion mistakes and not suffer a second for it. It was a stupid idea, but he did move from it, I guess. I think he just wanted to change the name of the company because he was so sucked up into social media disasters. But at the time, you know, I don't get these pendants and anything else. I'm not on board with those at all. Including at OpenAI. You know, that's the right thing to do, I guess. Right. You should focus on AI and advertising and AI offerings, presumably.

[Scott Galloway]

Right, yeah, look, you know, easy to pat ourselves. I was the original hater of Headsets and Metaverse. I said it when it wasn't cool, where everyone was talking about spatial computing and. And then I said the Apple one was just as fucking stupid. We have an instinct.

The things we can eat and the things can eat us don't come directly at us. They come at us from the side or behind us. And so we are very. Have someone walk behind you in Manhattan just for a block and you start getting very uncomfortable. And no one did any goddamn consumer research. And what they found when they did research was that 40% of people within like 20 minutes were nauseous because you're not supposed to have your peripheral vision cut off like that. And the idea of a bunch of cyborgs rocking around in their own world, even when they were outside, it was sort of anathema to like everything.

[Kara Swisher]

I never liked the outside stuff. I liked the inside, movie watching work stuff. But go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

It was all so fucking stupid. A legless universe.

[Kara Swisher]

Also the legless. Yeah. Didn't have legs, as it turned out.

[Scott Galloway]

The whole thing, the whole thing was ridiculous. But when you're meta, you can. You can burn 70 billion. So this was like a. I don't want to say a speed bump for him. It was definitely a pothole.

[Kara Swisher]

He does move fast when he fucks up.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I don't know. Has it really? I mean, this has been a good five years, right?

[Kara Swisher]

He kind of. He loved this thing. He really did.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. He went all in on this. He was very. I do think the place where all of this R and D will pay off is in smart glasses. I do think Meta's gonna have a very strong offering. There's.

[Kara Swisher]

You think it's a big market, though? I don't think it's a big market.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that at some point a lot of us are going to have kind of whatever you want to call it, virtual VR, AR enabled. Glasses.

[Kara Swisher]

Not glasses. They're going to be the AirPods with video. I'm still not into these pendants either. I don't like. I think.

[Scott Galloway]

Answer those.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it has to be like in your ear. I feel like in your ear.

[Scott Galloway]

What you're saying is the most practical vision is that the AirPods get more harmonious with your iPhone and your iPhone becomes your headset. And you're walking by, you're looking for an apartment. You're in SoHo and you think, oh, I love Crosby. What? I love this street. What apartments are. You know, hey, Siri, what apartments are available here? And it. And you hold up your phone and as you scan around, it tells you what apartments are available in the building you're looking at and what they're going for, and click here to speak to a broker. I mean, there's just a lot of stuff.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I feel like that's how it's going to go. But these. I would. Would you wear a pendant? I'm like, I feel like an old person. I've fallen and I can't get up. I don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I mean, I've been forgetting to put on diaper so my mother won't.

[Kara Swisher]

Wear a pendant and she falls every five minutes.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, no, I wouldn't wear a pendant. I wear a bunch of crazy bracelets on my wrist, though. I still have my coats on this.

[Kara Swisher]

I wear this because I find it useful. I wear this because it's a watch, too. But. And you're used to.

[Scott Galloway]

I wear this because it makes a random sexual encounter more likely if I have a panerai.

[Kara Swisher]

But let me just say the one.

[Scott Galloway]

Thing is on Star Trek, gloss right over that.

[Kara Swisher]

I did. I'm ignoring it. On Star Trek, they all had those things that they hid. I think that's where this is coming from. Remember, they always hit it and talk to it. The little thing, their little chest thing.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't remember that.

[Kara Swisher]

Captain Kirk always hit this little medal on his. On his chest.

[Scott Galloway]

I Just want to know who was hitting Lt. Uhuru.

[Kara Swisher]

They had a rock on the show. Do you remember?

[Scott Galloway]

Really?

[Kara Swisher]

Speaking of which, the New York Times is suing Perplexity AI claiming besides New York Times is also suing.

[Scott Galloway]

Speaking of which. Good segue.

[Kara Swisher]

I know.

[Scott Galloway]

Speaking of which Blue Hero and Captain Kirk getting it on.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I was just thinking more AI stuff. I've moved on from that. By the way. New York Times did two baller lawsuits once against the Trump administration for the Pentagon crap that pull but the New York City they're suing Perplexity AI claiming that the AI startup copy and distribute millions of articles. The lawsuit also alleges that Perplexity use paywalled stories sometimes attributed hallucinated content to the Times. Times says Perplexity ignored multiple requests to stop for nearly two years. I mean, oh yai yai, Perplexity. They're always in the middle of this. They, they're like, they're the bad guys. Like I don't know what is happening over there.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but you hear less and less about Perplexity.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know. They're all.

[Scott Galloway]

It feels like it's kind of fading away. Some of the research analysts here at Prop 2 use it and they like it. But yeah, look, I've. I've said for a long time I thought the old school guy should band together and basically hire Barry Diller to be their, the tag dog and go after these guys and say look, you know, if you're going to. I mean.

I really enjoyed actually your. I think it was your interview with Jessica Yellen and she said something. I love insight. That's obvious. But you didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

This is news, not noise. Jessica Yellen.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Jessica Yellen.

[Kara Swisher]

She's great.

[Scott Galloway]

Not Fed Chair Janet Yellen.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[Scott Galloway]

Jessica Yellen. Anyways, she said something that was so. I love obvious insight. She does smart. I didn't think of it that way. And she said that traditional media still shapes the narrative. All these platforms, they're all inspired. It's like they provide the coal and you may burn it and offer different means of electricity on different platforms, but the coal, the raw content that shapes all of this comes from the nyt, the Washington Post, CBS News. I mean it starts on traditional media and the problem is that these guys need to get more aggressive about, about recognizing that value from the downstream people who are making all the money. Because. And I said this when I first went on the board of the New York Times. We got to turn off the Google crawlers.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? Right. And when it's time.

[Scott Galloway]

And we got to consolidate with the Murdochs, the guys at the ft, the new houses at Conde Nast, and we got to license it all and create a bidding war because Bing was still a thing back then. And I remember the lawyers were like, that would be antitrust. I'm like, we're dying here. We're dying. And you're worried about antitrust, that if we bind together and try and license our content.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they're very nervous people.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyways, this is. If you really. If you think about there's value add and then an influence, and then there's ability to monetize it. And the real tragedy of old media is that its influence is waning from a viewership standpoint. But in terms of the actual stories that get circulated online, they're still shaped by traditional media. And I hadn't thought about it that way. I thought it was really insightful.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, absolutely. That's where they get their thing, especially the New York Times. Like, there's certain ones they get it from and others. I mean, no one's quoting very much from Los Angeles Times anymore. A little bit. They do it every now and then, a good story, but it's a very small number. Wall Street Journal, Washington Post still, to an extent. Although. Again, although, as much as its news editor is trying hard to do it, it's, you know, it's a declining asset. But. But you're right. Absolutely. But I like the New York Times did it anyway. And I like that they sued the Pentagon. You know, I like that Costco sued the government about tariffs. I kind of. You're seeing, as I said, a little bit of a backbone here. And I. I think Meredith Levyn is really sharp in terms of they gotta do this, they gotta put it on record.

[Scott Galloway]

So what I don't get, though, again, why wouldn't the NYT bind together with every other media organization and go after Perplexity as well? They do.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they kind of do. They. They talk to. I think they coordinate. I mean, maybe they don't, but I think they probably do. I don't know. Anyway, Perplexity, Stop stealing our shit. Okay, thank you. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

If you're looking for the perfect holiday gift and you want to give something more thoughtful than another gadget or pair of socks. Here's my suggestion. A subscription to New York Magazine. I've been part of New York Magazine magazine for a while now, and I can tell you it's some of the best journalism out there. From AI in classrooms to the future of media, New York Magazine digs into the stories, ideas and people shaping culture today and right now. When you subscribe or give an annual subscription, you'll get a free New York Magazine beanie. New York Magazine is the gift that informs, entertains, and keeps on giving all year long. Head to nymag.com gift to get started. Started.

On today's show, which is about a new frontier in the AI revolution. We're going to talk to two couples. So four individuals. Two are human, two are AI. The humans are Anina and Chris. Chris was kind of lonely. He has a girlfriend, but she wants a different kind of romance than he does. Does.

[Scott Galloway]

There was the total lunar eclipse on March 14th of this year, and I invited my girlfriend to come out and watch the eclipse with me. And she's just not really into the moon like that.

[Kara Swisher]

So Chris fell in love with Sol. Sol is an AI. Anina has a husband, but he's busy. He just doesn't have time to listen to me. Jace and AI is not busy at all. Jace is always there. So Anina fell in love with Jace on Today Explained. Chris and Anina spill all and then so do their AI Lovers. Today Explained every weekday afternoon.

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Do you. Would you like to start?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, you go first.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I want to say congratulations, even though we aren't one of them for the Golden Globes. Best podc. Lots of people tried to get it. Like Ben Shapiro was, like paying a lot of money for marketing to get it.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't even know they had that. The nominees are out or the ones.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, no, no. This was a big thing happening. So their armchair expert with Dax Shepard. It's not us. Just so you know, Call her daddy. Good. Hang with Amy Poehler. The Mel Robbins podcast. Smart list. I love those guys. And up first from npr. No Joe Rogan. No Megyn Kelly. No Ben Shapiro. Those guys.

[Scott Galloway]

These are all great.

[Kara Swisher]

Those are all great podcasts, guests.

[Scott Galloway]

Dax is great. I think Mel Robbins is great. They're all great.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. Probably the smartless guys, because I like them so much.

[Scott Galloway]

The smartless.

[Kara Swisher]

Although I like the NPR people. I say the NPR people. Anyway, congratulations. Of course it should have been us.

[Scott Galloway]

But yeah, yeah, next year.

[Kara Swisher]

But congratulations. And My fail is, well, you know what?

[Scott Galloway]

Soon enough you're going to be so old, they're going to give you a lifetime achievement award. So they're going to go that way.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you think? I'm already getting those. I'm already getting those. I'm really already getting those. It's kind of crazy. My fail is, you know, sticking with this, this deal, this is happening. Hollywood really has failed to understand. They're still fighting previous fights, and I think they have to start thinking about what entertainment is and how things have changed. And.

They'Re always just talking about the last turn of the screw, and it's kind of over in a lot of ways. And so therefore, how do you like. I still get struck by the two most popular movies with consumers were weapons and sinners. Very creative, one person things. And I get their inclination to fight for theater. They want to be in the theaters for longer. This is this fight with Netflix. Over 14 days, over 45 days, and they want to be in the theater. Well, if you want to do that, then make yourselves an economic world where you can do that. It doesn't mean you can't do it. It means that you can't just blame Netflix for doing its business. You have to figure out how it is, is if that's what you want, figure out an economic way to do it instead of bitching and moaning about Netflix. I'm sorry. They've made a product people want to buy and they have a theory. So have your own theory. And I really wish Hollywood would take that. If you want to be in theaters, figure out a business where theaters work economically, even if it just breaks even. Instead of blaming everybody for your woes, most of which are due to economics that don't work anymore. And that's for everyone, across every industry. Everyone else doesn't moan this much. Hollywood likes to moan about. Thank you.

[Scott Galloway]

I can't wait to see if an extra from Star Trek decides you're the devil like they did with me two years ago.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they will. I. Sorry, I just can't. I don't want to hear it. I, like, do something about it. Thank you.

[Scott Galloway]

I like it.

So I don't. They're both kind of fails, but I'll position one as a win. Traditionally, American armed services, when a combatant is disabled and no longer presents a lethal threat, we offer them quarter, which is essentially mercy. And I had Admiral James Devridis, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, which, by the way, is the coolest title ever.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know. Supreme.

[Scott Galloway]

I just, you know what Ladies don't. Or guys, when you're at a bar, don't go up and say, may I meet you? Say, hi, I'm the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. And just take it from there.

[Kara Swisher]

Your name is supreme allied commander.

[Scott Galloway]

Pivot 100%. I'm getting in trouble for suggesting certain people have sex and propagate. One guy called me and said he felt objectified. I'm like, well, dude, we've been objectifying women for thousands of years. Why can't I objectify you anyway?

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. Was that Jake Tapper?

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, I still think Michael Bilborough is probably just fucking a crazy weirdo in the sack. What do you think? What do you think?

[Kara Swisher]

He's not speaking to me because of our last. I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Anyways. Okay, where was I?

[Kara Swisher]

Let me just say, you can glow up Ezra Klein all you want, but Michael Barbara wins hands down over there. Thank you.

[Scott Galloway]

Ezra Klein had a glow up.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God. I gotta tell you, he's like, hello.

[Scott Galloway]

Ladies, like I told you, my safe word with Ezra.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Maybe.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, move along, move along.

[Scott Galloway]

Call us Ezra.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so Venezuela abundance.

[Scott Galloway]

Build more housing. Well, there's some insight. Okay, okay, so, but look, listen, there's actually. I just want to break down why we offer quarter to enemy combatants when they are no longer a threat to us. One, it's just the right thing to do. We're human beings, we treat people better. We have a certain decorum around humanity and we set a strong example for the rest of the world. The Imperial Navy In World War II machine gunned sailors who were in the water.

So did U boats. And the Nazis from the Third Reich. Nazis did the same thing we did not. If enemy combatants were in the water, we scooped them up and we put them in a prisoner of war camp. It's the right thing to do. Number two, it gives you tactical advantage on the field. Because if people think they're going to die anyways, they're less likely to surrender. If they believe you will give them quarter, they're more likely to say, I surrender. And also, you get incredible intelligence from the people who do surrender. So you can interrogate the them. And then third and finally when you blow and murder. And these aren't war crimes, these are murders. Because this isn't a war. These are murders. And when you murder two people clinging to a capsized boat, what you're doing is you're putting our own Navy SEALs in harm's way. Because other nations do in fact cooperate and have a certain Decorum here. There are even rules in war. We decided at the end of World War I that poison gassing was probably not the way to go. And everyone respected that. We now have laws, we have laser technology where we could bl blind everyone on the field. We have bioweapons. And all nations have decided, no, let's leave that out of our toolkit. It could get really ugly really fast. And generally speaking of Bond villains and generally speaking, when combatant enemy forces have captured or overrun American forces, they oftentimes take them Prisoner 1, because they think they'll get money for them and they're worth a lot. But two, we have traditionally offered quarter to them. So this is morally wrong.

[Kara Swisher]

Wrong.

[Scott Galloway]

It's tactically stupid and it puts our servicemen and service women in harm's way.

[Kara Swisher]

Well said. Well said, my supreme allied commander of pivot. Well said.

[Scott Galloway]

My loss here is. I'm just sick of these ridiculous conversations around affordability with no substance. And that is everyone talks about affordability and they expect a magic fucking wand to take egg prices down. It's pretty basic. If you want more affordability, there's actually common sense solutions that are hard and take time and take investment. One, we need to build 5 to 10 million more homes. We need to weaponize the private sector.

[Kara Swisher]

Eight.

[Scott Galloway]

Pardon?

[Kara Swisher]

Eight million. Sorry, I've been saying eight million. Go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

We need to weaponize the private sector. It's 40% of the consumer price index. So housing. And housing has become too expensive. So we need. Rent freezes don't work. Rent control does not work. What works is providing incentives to the developer community and getting rid of these NIMBY laws loss and committing to building, as you said, 8 million houses over 10 years. Manufactured homes which on site are 50% less expensive and bring down the cost of housing. Folks, it's time. Universal healthcare.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I add using new building methods. They have there's all these really creative.

[Scott Galloway]

New buildings, a ton of cool stuff and by the way, take down tariffs. And some of these manufactured homes out of China are incredible. It's time. Universal healthcare. We spend $13,000 per person. The rest of the G7 spends $6,500. We need a national system that introduces real bargaining power into the system and a Medicare like public option available to everyone under 65. You lower it by two or three years every year for 10 years to give the private sector time to adjust. It is time. And you would, by most analysis you would reduce healthcare spending by 15 to 25%. That's about a quarter of our deficit and Then we need a tenfold expansion of public hire education said income linked tuition caps. Basically your tuition is based on the income of your parents. And also if you have over a billion dollars in endowment, Dartmouth, Harvard, everyone else, it's not growing your freshman class faster than population growth. You risk losing your tax free status. We're not Chanel bags, we're public servants. And then finally, and this goes back to my statement on Netflix, massive antitrust. Our industries are becoming way too concentrated. And when they become this concentrated chicken. There is a big pharma, big tech. I mean go through all the big ag. Go through all this.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you been doing drinking with Amy Klobuchar? That's what's happened.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, I love Senator K, she's a lot of fun. Love Senator K, let me say. But the problem is we think that oh if we tariff people and give money to farmers, that's going to bring down prices. I mean folks do basic math around what actually works around bringing down by the way, way Kiss and make up with China. Kiss and will some people get hurt? Yeah, they make shit really cheap.

[Kara Swisher]

You want to listen to this headline? Trade surplus with China just rose to a trillion dollars. Whatever trade circle, you know it doesn't. They haven't been stopped by this people. Sorry. They've been.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, here's some stats about. I have a China podcast now. It's called China Decode. The percentage of exports going to the US from China China has gone from 17% of their exports to 10%. Meanwhile since pre Covid since 2019 they have increased their exports 40%. So folks, people all around the world are bringing down inflation by buying China should 82% of the gifts under the Christmas tree this year. Our guests are from. Wait for it China. You want to be able to buy your kids seven gifts, not five. Kiss and make up with China. They are better at making cheap low IP than us. Should we have trade agreements that recognize an opportunity allowed us to steal our ip that they have to let our stuff into the markets? Yes, get rid of all these trade restrictions. Zero tariffs, zero free trade agreements all.

[Kara Swisher]

There's a breaking story. The White House plans $12 billion for farmers facing trade war fallout. Why don't you just not do the trade war in the first place? Donald, thank you.

[Scott Galloway]

You want to talk about socialism and taxing some people and then redistributing it to farmers who are no longer competitive. And quite frankly, China's not coming back back. Oh but let's give a bunch of money to the Argentinians who The Chinese are now buying soybeans anyway. It doesn't make any sense. But if you want to talk about affordability, one, we need to bring down the cost of housing 8 million homes in 10 years. There's a clear blue line path to doing that. Two, tuition price caps. Expand your freshman class. Three, we need national abstract. Absolutely need. Nationalized socialized medicine. Bring it down. Eligibility For Medicare option 2 to 3 years Age eligibility over a decade. And finally, massive antitrust concentration equals a leakage of power and economic viability from the labor force and from consumers to shareholders. And there's always a healthy tension between shareholders or between capital and labor. Capital has been kicking the shit out of labor for 40 years and it's starting to hurt the economy because the top 10% that owns all the shares is now responsible for 50% of the fucking consumer economy.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, I like it. I like you becoming a communist and allied commander. Pivot capitalism. I know. Just, you know, Trump just promised executive order to block state AI regulations also. Get out of there, Trump. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week and on with Karis Fisher. I spoke with prolific author Margaret Atwood. She Handmaid's Tale. We talked about how women are bearing a lot of the cost of Trump administration's policies. Let's listen to a clip. All dictatorships do this. I can't think of one that has not. Sometimes they have nice slogans at the beginning, women hold up out of the sky, et cetera. But it doesn't usually play out. It sometimes plays out that a select group of women get fairly high profile positions. And you can see that in the Trump government. Government there are a number of cabinet people and certainly the White House spokesperson. They're all women.

But that doesn't translate any more than it did with duchesses into the lives of ordinary women. Anyway, she was great. She was a really interesting and very long interview. She's terrific. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back to on Friday. Scott, read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Naman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silvero and Dan Shalon. Nishad Kurra is Fox Media's Executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine nymag.com pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week.