Tariff Turmoil, Trump’s Tesla Ad, and Newsom’s Bannon Interview

Summary

Episode Summary: Tariff Turmoil, Trump’s Tesla Ad, and Newsom’s Bannon Interview

Podcast Title: Pivot
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Guest: Elon Musk
Release Date: March 14, 2025
Network: New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network

In this episode of Pivot, tech journalist Kara Swisher and NYU Professor Scott Galloway, joined intermittently by Elon Musk, unpack three major stories shaking the intersections of technology, business, and politics: the fallout from President Trump’s tariffs, Trump’s promotional stunt involving Tesla at the White House, and California Governor Gavin Newsom’s controversial podcast interview with Steve Bannon.

1. Tariff Turmoil

The episode kicks off with a deep dive into the economic repercussions of former President Trump’s tariffs on steel and aluminum. Scott Galloway provides a comprehensive analysis of the retaliatory tariffs imposed by the EU and Canada, highlighting the ensuing market volatility and uncertainty.

Scott Galloway [32:50]: “Tariffs suppress demand and revenues in a much greater way than the incremental income gains from companies that benefit.”

Galloway explains that while tariffs aim to protect domestic industries, they often lead to higher consumer prices and decreased demand, ultimately harming the economy more than helping it. Elon Musk reinforces this perspective, emphasizing the inefficiency and increased costs tariffs impose on consumers and businesses alike.

Elon Musk [36:15]: “Tariffs are the most elegant, efficient way to reduce American prosperity. They make us less competitive, less productive, and they increase costs.”

The conversation also touches on the broader implications for American competitiveness, with Musk stressing how tariffs create uncertainty that hampers business planning and supply chain management, potentially driving global partners to seek more reliable and consistent trading relationships elsewhere.

2. Trump’s Tesla Ad

Transitioning to a lighter yet impactful topic, the hosts discuss former President Trump’s recent appearance promoting Tesla at the White House. Despite his personal disdain for electric vehicles, Trump’s endorsement appeared as a strategic move to support Musk’s company amidst fluctuating Tesla stock prices.

Elon Musk [52:03]: “It seemed fucking ridiculous that the President of the United States would decide to do an infomercial for one brand and not all other American brands.”

Both Swisher and Galloway critique the effectiveness and sincerity of this promotional stunt. Galloway points out the potential damage to Tesla’s brand reputation, noting that such appearances may come off as desperate rather than supportive.

Scott Galloway [53:17]: “It was pathetic. If support doesn’t stabilize Tesla shares, they’re going to drift down again.”

Musk agrees, highlighting that selective promotion undermines the credibility of both the brand and the political figure endorsing it. The discussion underscores the complexities of intertwining political endorsements with corporate interests, especially when personal opinions clash with public actions.

3. Newsom’s Bannon Interview

The final major segment focuses on California Governor Gavin Newsom’s podcast interview with Steve Bannon, a figure known for his controversial and extremist views. Swisher and Galloway express concern over Newsom’s approach, which maintains a cordial tone despite Bannon’s unfounded claims about the 2020 election.

Elon Musk [21:14]: “Governor Newsom should have pushed back and challenged the false narratives instead of giving these opportunistic figures a platform.”

Galloway criticizes Newsom for normalizing extremist rhetoric by treating Bannon as a legitimate policy thinker without adequately addressing the misinformation presented.

Scott Galloway [16:38]: “Newsom’s friendly approach allowed extremist voices to gain legitimacy without sufficient fact-checking or challenge.”

Musk echoes this sentiment, advocating for more accountability and critical engagement when dealing with such figures to prevent the amplification of harmful and deceptive narratives.

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, with occasional insights from Elon Musk, critically examine how political maneuvers and economic policies intersect with the tech and business landscapes. From the destabilizing effects of tariffs and questionable endorsements to the problematic normalization of extremist views, the hosts provide a thorough analysis of the current challenges facing industries and governance.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Scott Galloway [32:50]:

   “Tariffs suppress demand and revenues in a much greater way than the incremental income gains from companies that benefit.”

2. Elon Musk [36:15]:

   “Tariffs are the most elegant, efficient way to reduce American prosperity. They make us less competitive, less productive, and they increase costs.”

3. Elon Musk [52:03]:

   “It seemed fucking ridiculous that the President of the United States would decide to do an infomercial for one brand and not all other American brands.”

4. Scott Galloway [53:17]:

   “It was pathetic. If support doesn’t stabilize Tesla shares, they’re going to drift down again.”

5. Elon Musk [21:14]:

   “Governor Newsom should have pushed back and challenged the false narratives instead of giving these opportunistic figures a platform.”

6. Scott Galloway [16:38]:

   “Newsom’s friendly approach allowed extremist voices to gain legitimacy without sufficient fact-checking or challenge.”

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the critical discussions on tariffs, political endorsements, and the normalization of extremist rhetoric, supported by direct quotes and timestamped attributions.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

Boring, busy work.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

I gotta get dressed for Whoopi Goldberg. You know who's on right after me? Donny Osmond.

[Elon Musk]

Donny Osmond. That is literally. Literally. Just when I thought your flexors couldn't get any weaker. You're bragging about that?

[Scott Galloway]

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Elon Musk]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

How you doing, Scott? I just saw you last night when we were together.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, what a thrill. It was fun.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you like it? They love us together there on Anderson Cooper.

[Elon Musk]

Oh, on ac. I like AC and I like cnn and they do a good job. He's a real pro. I love kind of seeing how the sausage gets made.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, we had a beautiful time and it was very nice to see you. It was very good. To see you.

[Elon Musk]

Nice to see you.

[Scott Galloway]

We've seen a lot of each other. Route south by southwest.

[Elon Musk]

We have. We've been hanging. We've been rolling.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you tired of me?

[Elon Musk]

No. I mean, I was tired of you years ago, but no. More tired of you, I should say.

[Scott Galloway]

That's what I felt. Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

No, it's nice to see you. I always enjoy seeing you. Last night, literally, we went to dinner, and George and I just, like, leaned back and let you and Jess go at it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I like her a lot. She's unusually tall. I didn't realize that until she got up.

[Elon Musk]

Oh, really? Yeah, she's. I think she played basketball in high school.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, she's a tall galaxy. Anyway, are you tired? I made Scott come early to work today. Cause I'm going on the View.

[Elon Musk]

I'm convinced for guys, being tall is like big tits. Like, a woman just gets a natural amount, unnatural amount of attention if she has a large. It's so true. Think about it. Okay. If a woman has big boobs, she just gets an unnatural amount of attention. And I think it's the same for a guy if he's tall. I think height is the new boobs for men.

[Scott Galloway]

You know how you get a lot of attention? You jump up and down to the stage. In Austin, I have had that picture sent to me. Oh, that was magic so many times.

[Elon Musk]

That was comedy gold tv. My favorite thing was you just finally gone. The audience really responded when you said, sit down.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I know, but I was sitting there going, sit down, sit down, sit down, sit down. I've gotten a picture sent to me, like, what is going on here?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, just giving the ladies a little bit of daddy, little bit of dessert, a little bit of dessert with their south by south with their chicken fajitas with queso, a little dog, little topping of the dough. Chicken. Give the people what they want. Kara, how about.

[Scott Galloway]

What would you like for Christmas?

[Elon Musk]

I'd like a little Scottish.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I don't think so. But I did get that picture sent to me and asked me what was happening, and I said, the typical day in the life of pivot.

[Elon Musk]

Here's what makes you funnier or more comfortable with being unfunny. Just the recognition. We're all gonna be dead soon.

[Scott Galloway]

That's right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm comfortable. Let me think. I'm comfortable with being unfunny. Interesting. Interesting.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah. Well, comfortable being unfunny, trying to be funny, like, taking risks. Right, right.

[Scott Galloway]

That's true.

[Elon Musk]

A lot of times, as Anyone who listens to this show will know a lot of my jokes don't land. And here's the thing. Anyone not laughing, you're going to be dead soon, and so am I. Oh, okay.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, those pictures will endure. That's the good thing.

[Elon Musk]

That's definitely some therapy for my voice.

[Scott Galloway]

Death decisions are the metaphor of my life. You know that. That's what I always do when I'm deciding what to say and do.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, we've both had. Well, you had obviously, a health scare and you lost a parent very young. I'm a raging atheist. I think a. Like a very real sense of the finite nature of life is an absolute blessing. I think it really is.

[Scott Galloway]

As you know, that Steve Jobs essay that he did, actually, it was a speech that he did at Stanford. I read all the time. I recommend it to everybody. It's all about living.

[Elon Musk]

About denying your. About denying your daughter on child transport payments.

[Scott Galloway]

No, that is not. He got it.

[Elon Musk]

Why don't you pretend he's Jesus Christ? Because he invented a fucking phone.

[Scott Galloway]

No, that is. He didn't invent the phone.

[Elon Musk]

Part of the acolytes, by the way. I just want to call it out. Well, I disliked Elon. Well, before you.

[Scott Galloway]

That is true.

[Elon Musk]

You used to be his defender.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I did. You're right. I agree with you. I did. Well, I was mostly attracted to. He was focused on important things versus I was so tired of people. You know, you're right. I was. There's no way out of it. There was. There was. But I think I've more than made up for it. I feel like I'm more than made up for it.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, you're catching up.

[Scott Galloway]

I know. I'm catching up. Anyway, we got a lot to get to today. I'm in New York, as I said. I'm picking up my mom and then I'll go back down to Washington, Be in Washington for a little while. But we have a lot to get to today because Washington is where the action is because of the market chaos from the Trump tariffs and the Tesla stunt at the White House. The car sale at the White House. We've got a lot to talk about. But first, Amazon announced this week that seven seasons of Donald Trump's reality show the Apprentice will soon be streaming on Prime Video. This follows Amazon paying a reported $40 million to license a Milan. Not even own license, a Melania Trump documentary. Trump's cut of the new streaming deal hasn't been revealed, but he was an executive producer on the show and he actually is well compensated. When it was shown. Netflix also just made a deal with Tony Hinchcliffe, the comedian who sparked controversy with that racist joke at Trump rally last October about Puerto Ricans. Talk to me about this. I watched all these seasons of the Apprentice. I'm kind of like, I can see why you would buy this. Because he's the president, he's popular with half the country. I like the show, so I kind of get it. I'm surprised that it wasn't available widely. I don't recall looking for it. And I don't know why you'd watch it again, necessarily. Tony Inchcliffe. I get they're gonna invest in all these things like this going forward, and they're gonna be behind the times. Cause the ones you wanna get are the Bill Burrs or whatever, which they already have, of course. But what do you think of these programming moves?

[Elon Musk]

I think comedians doing really well is really important on both sides of the aisle. And so good for him. Good for. Is it Netflix that's bringing him on? Yeah, Netflix, yeah. The thing that's more troubling is the following. There's nothing wrong with if Amazon decides in terms of programming to bring on whatever shows they want from the past that help cement their. Their value proposition. The problem is, is that, okay, we have. We have what appears to be Amazon paying overpaying for the Melania Trump documentary.

[Scott Galloway]

Absolutely.

[Elon Musk]

In that case, we have Jeff Bezos giving a million dollars the inaugural campaign. And under what feels like duress, we have also kind of strange, ironic timing where the owner, the same guy of the Washington Post, has decided they don't need to have an opinion section, which feels very, very, quite frankly, like he's acquiescent of pressure from Trump. So the problem is, is that if we end up in a situation where every person in power starts to take, if you will, kind of soft bribes in exchange for possibly exonerating that company from certain regulation or tariffs, you end up with one of the reasons India has not, quite frankly, kept pace with China. Twenty years ago, most analysts would have said, half of analysts 20, 30 years ago would have said the next enormous growth economy. Half would have said China, half would have said India. India's a democracy. English speakers, huge emphasis on education, strong with tech. It wasn't immediately obvious that China was going to absolutely crush India in terms of growth. But here's one of the big problems with India. It is wildly fucking corrupt. And local officials and politicians extract a lot of unfair rents from businesses, which makes everyone less competitive and creates incentives for more and more corruption. China on a regular basis finds corrupt officials and business people and executes them. Probably not the right way to go, but there is. They are very serious about corruption and that creates more robust, competitive workplace. We are headed more towards India right now than we have been in the past.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Oh, that's. I was not expecting this. This India move. This is really interesting. I would agree. This is the Melania thing is such. It feels like such grift. I mean, they don't own it. The money is ridiculous. They're not going to get the watching out of it. I mean, it's whack when that happens.

[Elon Musk]

It's a bribe.

[Scott Galloway]

That felt like a bribe. The Washington Post thing certainly did and it continues to do. By the way, they lost their very excellent head public relations there and communications left, who's a pro. So many people are leaving there. Ruth Marcus, also a columnist, great columnist, one of their most popular columnists left when they spiked a piece that was mild at best, which she published in the New Yorker. She's been there forever. She was there when I was at the Washington Post, the Apprentice. I'm gonna say it's a reasonable enough decision, I guess, for that one. But you're right, it looks like payments to Donald Trump in some fash or ways to get an advantage with him in some way, especially at Amazon. All told. Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

Don't forget this is the guy that essentially opened a Swiss bank account that any foreign entity could deposit money into. And only Donald Trump gets the receipts and knows what is going into that bank account. And it's called the Trump Coin. He basically set up the ultimate vessel for quiet, off record bribes. And where do we go? A lot of Republicans will claim, and I think there's a real argument here, Scott. We're just less opaque about it than Democrats. We cut out the middlemen of lobbyists and of special interest groups and of people giving speeches.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, they get that too. What are you talking about anyway?

[Elon Musk]

Well, but theoretically it's a fair argument and this is where I just want to bust the solutions. I think the right solution here is Singapore, and that is, I believe every congressperson and every senator should be paid a million to $3 million a year. I think the president should be paid $10 million a year. But in exchange for that, there is absol. Absolutely zero, zero corruption, no speeches, no payments. Can't work for a lobbyist for five years after you get out of office. No trading of stocks, just fucking nothing. Because the incentives here are unfortunately, I'm a very powerful person and I don't make enough money to have a home back in Newport beach and in D.C. and the incentives are, quite frankly, just to kind of file with the Ethics Committee. Maybe they say, oh, you're not supposed to trade stocks. The penalties are really low. We have to have a zero tolerance for this and dramatically increase their compensation.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I do. You know, it's what I was sort of yelling about last week is that they're not getting their advantage through innovation and products. They're getting their advantage through access. And that's a bad sign. It's a bad sign for an industry. It's a bad sign that this is where they're putting their focus and not on. On what they're making. And it just, it looks like, you know, pigs at the trough is what happens. Anyway, it's not a surprise, but I'll be interested to see how the Apprentice does. Actually, I really like the Apprentice as a program, although I knew it was all cooked. It was like watching wrestling. And apparently he was handed every single remark he made on the Apprentice. People who worked there told me that.

[Elon Musk]

I never watched the Apprentice. I never saw it.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know how it would be interesting now. It'll feel like such a throwback. I'm going to watch a couple of them to see because I did watch them all and I really enjoy them at the time. But then when you go back and watch things you used to watch, you're like, how in the world did I ever watch that? Like Three's Company. Go do that for a little test for yourself. And you'll be like, oh, my God, this is not keeping up.

[Elon Musk]

Come and knock on our door Come and knock on our door. It's basically the running joke was that the guy was supposed to be gay. I mean, that was.

[Scott Galloway]

Yes, it was so offensive.

[Elon Musk]

It was incredibly homophobic. Pretty sexist. And yet you still really like John Ritter.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, you did. Anyway, don't watch that show. You won't feel good. I don't think you can get it. Maybe Amazon will buy it.

[Elon Musk]

You know what show disappointed me the most when I went back? My favorite show. Speaking of an obsession with death, my absolute favorite show, no Joke, was Six Feet Under. Did you ever watch that? Of course we did.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, it was that. I remember thinking, this is such incredible creative. I thought almost every show, it made you feel, really feel something. And then it came back on, I think AMC or something with commercial breaks, and it just absolutely ruined it. And you recognize it was the first time I thought people don't realize that streaming's real advantage is no commercials. That storytelling is so much easier when every 9 to 11. That's what's so amazing about Modern Family is they imagine they're able to keep the thread even though they have to interrupt it every 11 minutes with medication, telling you you have restless legs.

[Scott Galloway]

I know I have a hard time with ads now. It's weird when I see them on the show. I was up late last night watching Hobbs and Shaw, but they kept having commercials and I didn't know what to do. I was like, what do I do now? Why am I waiting for this? Anyway, speaking of things that are perplexing to me and I know Jess yesterday liked it, but I have a new argument against what she said. California Governor Gavin Newsom had none other than Steve Bannon on his podcast. The two kept up a reasonably friendly tone and Newsom didn't push back when Bannon claimed Trump won the 2020 election. He did the same with Charlie Kirk and Michael Savage and things they said that were just absolute nonsense lies really essentially and didn't mention, for example, Kirk's he has a wide range of terrible things he said that are really just awful. Their hour long conversation was mostly focused this abandoned one, on economic issues in areas of common ground. One of those areas. Elon Musk. Let's listen to a clip. Forgive me, but what's his end game? I mean, you know. I know.

[Elon Musk]

Look, he wants to be the first.

[Scott Galloway]

Trillionaire in the world. I mean, what's his end game here?

[Elon Musk]

Well, you know, it. You guys, you created a governor. I mean, you guys, by the way, in many respects, California, it was our regulatory process and our subsidies to create this market. You're 100% right. I think you're right.

[Scott Galloway]

Newsom isn't the only one making podcasts this week. Former first lady Michelle Obama has launched a video podcast with the Obama's media company Higher Ground. It's with her brother. The podcast imo, which will focus on it's in my opinion, on thoughtful conversations about life, is co hosted with her brother Craig Robinson, the newsome one I and I texted him about it. I had a lot of problem with because I understood his need to talk across the aisle with people. First of all, there's a lot of people he could talk to that don't constantly lie. And his first three guests are really problematic in that regard. But if you're gonna do that, you have to address the real differences and not debate them but point them out. Factual inaccuracies and his sort of jocular tone is not. I found it. I feel like it's just a political. He's doing it only for politics and to reach out to MAGA voters, perhaps. I'm perplexed by the entire endeavor and said so to him. What are your thoughts?

[Elon Musk]

I think it's really smart.

[Scott Galloway]

I know you think that.

[Elon Musk]

Really smart. Hey, look, first off, it's super important that we mix. It's super important that people from the right and the left. I'd love to see a giant. I'm going to go back. As always, I like to root everything in a personal parable that's kind of relevant. Adjacent. I was president of the Interfraternity Council, which is like king of the jarheads back at ucla. I was, quote, unquote, the head of the governing body that oversaw the Greek system. And my big idea, it was a time when there was a lot of tension between the fraternities, which were mostly, most obviously all male, mostly white. And we used to have these stupid theme parties that were racist and it would inflame special interest groups who saw us and the administration that saw us as an easy target. And the paper was always talking about what awful people we were, some of it deserved. And my big idea was like, let's take the Black Students alliance and Mecha, which was the Latino group, and let's all get together and have beers or get together and play sports together, but let's mix. And of course they're like, we want nothing to do with you fucking weirdos. But I think it's really important that people from different political views get together. I think it creates empathy with one another. Now, what you're saying is to. Let's just say Biden did not win the 2020. That requires a more honest, hard pushback that says, okay, what evidence actually do you have of that? And you're saying you didn't do that. But in terms of just strategically, for Governor Newsom, it's super smart. He's leveraging a new medium. He's going after new voters. He's meeting voters and people where they are on podcasts. And also the tension and the conflict. That's part of the reason this show's successful. We're not politically aligned on a lot of things. And the fact that he can talk about stuff, he. One, shows that he's smart. Two, he appeals to moderates. Three, Three, he's very good going, kind of. I don't wanna say behind enemy lines. I think if he wants to be president, which I believe he Does America's gonna want someone that they think at the end of the day can sit down with people from pretty far differing perspectives and have a reasonable conversation. And he's showing that.

[Scott Galloway]

All right. Perspectives, different perspectives. I agree. I think that's fine. I think that's great. But let me just read. Oliver Darcy wrote a column that I thought was perfect, actually. The harm, of course, isn't just that Newsom is failing to challenge his guests as they lie about important topics to a sizable audience. It's that he's actively contributing to the normalization of extremists by treating them as serious policy thinkers instead of dangerous right wing talkers who have caused immense damage to our country. Figures like Bannon, Kirk and Savage aren't merely conservatives with different policy views. They're performers whose platforms are built on deliberate deceptions, dangerous lies and hostility towards basic democratic principles. By inviting them onto his show without seriously challenging their rhetoric, Newsom has introduced these dishonest figures to new audiences. And he's done it while portraying them as serious voices who deserve respect and consideration. Now he also goes on. I'm going to finish this part. Is Newsom's friendly approach also represented a possible missed opportunity. Real dialogue across political divides can have value, but only when there's actual accountability. Hard hitting questioning, challenging of false narratives and yes, fact. Fact checking would have made for interesting show. Imagine how Jon Stewart or John Oliver would have interrogated the positions of these far right wing personalities. Had Newsom engaged in this style of interview, his podcast would have served a valuable purpose exposing rather than amplifying dishonest media figures. It would have been far more interesting than watching him bro it up with MAGA World. And he did come to the same conclusion. It's a move that frankly suggests he values his own political future more than holding some of the world's most most toxic media figures accountable for their corrosive impacts on society. In a sense, this podcast revealed quite a lot about his character that he's willing to do in the pursuit of power. I really hate to say that, but I would agree with that. I don't see a plus. I see, you know, I like when there's debates across things, but these are unreliable and disingenuous people that are doing things to advantage stories that aren't true. And this is what Jess and I argued about when you guys were staring at us because you spend all your time solving the lie and then you don't actually have a discussion.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, I mean, I hear that and I'm like, let's Clutch our pearls a little harder.

[Scott Galloway]

Is that a clutch of pearls?

[Elon Musk]

Oh, yeah, it is. For God's sakes. We can have three. Are Steve Bannon served? Was a senior advisor to the president.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. And a liar.

[Elon Musk]

Okay, let me be clear. I don't like the man. He said publicly that Trump's administration should sue me. I do not want Steve Bannon to be successful. He had a very senior role in the previous administration. He is very smart, and he says some batshit crazy things. The problem here was that Governor Newsom should have been able and been more prepared to really push back and say what you said here makes no sense. Can you please tell us what your thinking is? But we absolutely need more. Okay. The platform argument. You don't give Alex Jones a platform. You don't give the Tate brothers a platform. I said to Piers Morgan when I was on the show, I'm like, why do you bring this guy on? You're just adding legitimacy, having him sit next to you on tv. Guys like Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. Look, Democrats get over it. And by the way, I would like to see a lot of these crazy. A lot of the more Right podcasters bring on aoc. And the thing. You're a great interviewer, Governor Newsom, is not. And what you are able to do is the following. And you guys have to thread a very fine needle. And that is people aren't going to come on and be made a fool of and get into a shouting match. So you have to show a little bit of respect. And at the end of the day, if they keep lying, you have to say, okay, I don't believe that's true. But you move on and you try to be hospitable and a good host and present people in their best light. And I think he erred on the side of not pushing back where he probably should have. But I think this is a really healthy thing. I think we need more of this, not less of it.

[Scott Galloway]

I like when Pete Buttigieg goes on Fox News. I like when Newsom was doing that. When. With, you know, when he did a Good job. Ron DeSantis. That was a really interesting debate. Okay. Cause he pushed back thoughtfully. I don't mind pushing thoughtful discussions. I don't. In fact, a lot of journalists have interviewed Steve Bannon. I get it. I get why you should do it. The jocular stuff and pretending those things. These people specifically do these things as, you know, as a way to manipulate people. They aren't doing it. They're doing it not because of their Beliefs, they're doing it to tickle MAGA in some way. And I just think, if you are gonna do this, then act like you did with Ron DeSantis. Show some preparation. Show some. I don't expect him to be a journalist, but I don't expect him to pretend this never happened. And that's what he said.

[Elon Musk]

So we agree it was how he handled the interview, not whether he should have done it or not.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. I don't think he shouldn't. What I do think he should do is do the job he did before. And I was perplexed as to why. It was like, all joking, all joking. Oh, don't we all get along? And I think some of these people, particularly Bannon, is, I think about whether I would do an interview with him or not. And part of me, you know, I think I made the joke, you know, is it good to ask, you know, like. Cause he's warring with Musk, so everyone's like, oh, you should talk to him. I don't know if that's enough common ground to really have anything that's thoughtful in any way, because you're constantly spending your entire interview fixing the lie and then the conversations about the lie versus actual policy debate.

[Elon Musk]

But even that, even that, I've been asked. So one of the shows we go on a lot, sometimes the panelists, I think, like, I just can't keep up with the stream of falsehoods. I'm not going to be able to respond without. Without fact checking Real Time. But even what you said, I think is valuable to say, look, so much of what you're saying does not sound right. And we can't. And there's so much of it that we can't keep up with fact checking. I think even that's a fair statement to say you're just flooding the zone. It feels like you're flooding the zone with non truths. But really good, really good interviews are able to say, well, actually, I think of when this fairly famous venture capitalist who moved from San Francisco to Miami and started shitposting California long enough such that he could get a reduction in capital gains when he sold a stock, went on CNBC and started basically lying about the earnings of Open Door, basically saying it was profitable when it wasn't. And Deidre Bolsa fact checked him real Time. She's like, no, you can't say this company is profitable. It's not. She was so prepared. Or there was a producer in her ear going, that's not true. Push back on that. She essentially, Real Time Said our viewers, I don't want you to lie to our viewers. Over and over, we're talking about people's wealth and stock trades. And two or three times she would stop him and say, that's just not true with politics. It's harder because some of it is subjective. Right. I mean, but if you're going to say, like you said, the election, I mean, that to me is just a softball, like, please show me the evidence that contradicts the 62 court cases where the judges, including Republican appointed judges and Trump appointed judges, said there was no evidence of election fraud.

[Scott Galloway]

That's all I wanted. That's essentially when he did the Desantis, when he goes on Fox. I don't think he's hostile. I think he's having a great conversation, actually. I don't think he's like, gotcha. I just was like, what happened to that Gavin? Like, what in the world happened? And when he announced this, I thought, great idea. You do very well in those environments and the conversations must be had. But this was. I just don't know what he's up to here. Because it's not the guy who goes on Fox News. It's not the guy who wades into people he disagrees with. I do know California does need this funding from the Trump administration. I see that he has to be a little more solicitous of these people, but at the same time. And he kind of wants to denuter them before he runs, and so he doesn't get all the flack that they will inevitably aim at the next Democratic presidential nominee.

[Elon Musk]

Speaking of the Apprentice, I asked my master, if I shave my ass, does that mean I'm gay? And he says he who is cleaning his house is expecting visitors. Oh, that's wrong. That's really. That's awful.

[Scott Galloway]

I kind of like that. That's perfect. That's perfect.

[Elon Musk]

That's my way of saying we need to segue out of this story.

[Scott Galloway]

We do. I do. But I do wish he had done what he had done with DeSantis and others. And he's not doing that here.

[Elon Musk]

All right, you got the last word. This is called our relationship. You got the last word.

[Scott Galloway]

He should also have left wing figures he disagrees with anyway. Apparently they won't go on. He told me they won't go on anyway.

[Elon Musk]

Yes, I know. Get AOC on. And Bernie.

[Scott Galloway]

No, she'd kick his ass.

[Elon Musk]

Plus, can you imagine the two of them together? Oh, my God. Don't you just hope they both get naked and go out?

[Scott Galloway]

No, no, I don't. No, I don't. In any way. And we're out.

[Elon Musk]

You see Governor Newsom and Representative Ocasio.

[Scott Galloway]

Cortez, you know how to get me out of a conversation by making a ridiculous remark about the sexiness.

[Elon Musk]

Oh, God. And you know what I want? I would want them to have 40 or 50 kids. They'd become my army and we'd take over Australia and I would be the general consulate of Australia.

[Scott Galloway]

They would have barbecued you on the outback by then. You would have been gone on the Outback. Okay, Scott, let's take a quick break now. You know how to get me out of a conversation. When we come back, Trump's chaotic tariffs.

[Elon Musk]

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[Scott Galloway]

Foreign.

[Elon Musk]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for Pivot comes from Kinsta. You know as a small business owner that you need to have a standout website, but ultimately you're running a small business, not an IT shop. It's not on you to know every single thing about how a website needs to be run and managed and all the technical know how to figure out the security and back end. But rest assured, you can trust the team at Kinsta to help you manage and maintain your site. Kinsta's expert team handles it all. They've bundled up all the essentials to make sites stress free with speeds that'll wow your visitors, security that never sleeps, and a dashboard that's incredibly intuitive. And when you hit a snag, you'll talk to real humans 24, 7 actual people who get it, not AI chatbots. In short, Kinsta is perfect for those who want professional results without needing a technical background. So if you're tired of being your own website support team, you can switch your hosting to Kinsta to get your first month free. And don't worry about the move, they'll handle the whole transition for you. No tech expertise required. Just visit kinsta.com pivot to get started. That's K-I-N-S-T A.com pivot.

[Scott Galloway]

Scott we're back with the ongoing tariff whiplash. The EU and Canada announced billions of dollars in retaliatory tariffs on Wednesday after President Trump's levies on steel and aluminum went into effect. The markets continue their rollercoaster ride fluctuating with all the tariff pivots. Speaking of pivots, which you and I called red light, green light on Anderson Cooper last night, but steadying slightly with positive inflation report but people are still expecting inflation to rise, although we're recording this Thursday morning, Trump may change his mind on tariffs several more times. Before our listeners hear this, we'll get into recession concerns, which I'm calling Trump Session in a bit. But what do you think will happen? What do you think about these tariffs of the Last few days. Are markets overreacting or are they getting it right? The Wall Street Journal reported on a closed door gathering of CEOs this week at the Business Roundtable where impromptu poll was taken about the economy. Oh, this was the Jeffrey Sonnenfeld one. 22% said stocks would have to fall. 30% they would take a stand. Jamie Dimon finally did after saying Trump get over it on the tariffs is now saying this is a bad thing. Start with tariffs.

[Elon Musk]

First off, I think Jeffrey Sonnenfeld is a gift and he wrote a fantastic opinion piece about how some of these corporate leaders who claim to be leaders and claim to care about America need to speak up. And there haven't been that many. And congratulations to Jamie for kind of stepping into the void and saying what's on everybody's mind. I think you're going to see more of it. Look, tariffs are the following. They're not universally bad. If China is charging a tariff on our cars, we get to charge a tariff on their cars. Until we both decide to lower tariffs. Free trade creates prosperity. You can also probably need a tariff to support certain strategic industries. We probably should have some level of domestic production of steel in case those supply chains are shut down and we need to build tanks or what have you. But when, for example, these aluminum and steel tariffs, we tried that in the last Trump administration and what they found is the following, that, okay, let's assume that the additional revenue created by the tariffs, let's assume that the additional revenue captured by Cleveland Cliffs and US Steel are two largest remaining steel manufacturers. Their market, their products become more competitive because foreign steel is more expensive. So they get more share, more money, more tax revenue, more jobs. All right, theoretically it all works. Here's the problem. One, consumers prices get increased. Consumers have to pay up to 6, 8, $12,000 more for a truck with these tariffs, which takes down the demand, which takes down the gross profits of the domestic supplier because their products are more expensive relative to other people's products. Because we have to increase our input costs, there is a reciprocal tariff almost always meaning that our products become more expensive overseas. And what you found with the aluminum steel tariffs is that the increase in the cost of steel made that so many products across America had to increase their prices because steel and aluminum were big inputs, that the increase in prices reduced demand much more than the incremental income gains from the companies that benefit from their products being more competitive. In some, in almost every case, tariffs don't work. And if you look at what companies do thousands of times a Year across the market. They are perfectly trying to calibrate. Nike is perfectly trying to calibrate volume times gross margin and figure out the exact peanut butter and chocolate combination for shareholders. All right, if we lowered our prices and took our margins down from 30 points to 10 points, we'd double our volume, but we'd end up with less profit. So they perfectly attempt, or attempt to perfectly calibrate across every market, what is the optimal price relative to volume, relative to margin? And when the government comes with tariffs, what they're saying, saying is, hey, company, you're stupid. We could take prices up and it wouldn't hurt demand. And it never works out that way. It usually suppresses demand and revenues in a much greater volume or amount than the increase in revenues. It makes us less competitive, it makes us less productive, and it increases costs. If you're looking for an elegant way to increase consumer costs while reducing productivity and demand across our products in foreign markets, congratulations. This is super sizing Brexit. This is the most elegant, efficient way to reduce American prosperity. It makes absolutely fucking lute no sense. Sorry.

[Scott Galloway]

Here's a period boom professor gives you his lecture in class.

[Elon Musk]

Even worse. Even worse than this. Even worse than this. Even worse than the tariffs. If he said, all right, I'm putting a 10% tariff on everything from China, American companies could go, okay, this is stupid, whatever, but he gets to make this decision. But they could plan. They could say, okay, the cost of our shoes and our cars is about to go up 12 or 15%. We estimate that demand will fall by this, and we can adjust and plan for this. But here's what's even worse than these ridiculously stupid tariffs is the uncertainty means that foreign and domestic suppliers can't plan their goddamn business. When we were at south by Southwest, a lot of the digital media companies who were off to a great start of the year, right, the lack of uncertainty, because, okay, we know Trump's in office. We sort of know. We think we sort of know what to expect. Let's get back to business and start spending money. 2025 started great for digital media companies, dependent upon consumer advertising, and now their quarter has been blown because some of the biggest advertisers in America, including automobile companies, have all said the following. We have no fucking idea what's going on. So we're doing nothing. They have told their media planners, until there's more clarity, stop spending money. And the lack of certainty, the lack of consistency as a trading partner means every large organization and company in the world is trying to reconfigure their supply chain to be less dependent upon America, which means less money for America. The tariffs are bad. The uncertainty is even worse.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, wow, that was a lecture. I just felt like I was macroeconomics back in college right now. That was a macronomics professor. Thank you, Professor Galloway, for that cogent analysis. It sucks is what I now come.

[Elon Musk]

By my office hours and I'll help.

[Scott Galloway]

You on the hard class. No, no, don't do that. Don't do that, don't do that.

[Elon Musk]

That's wrong.

[Scott Galloway]

No, that's wrong. That's wrong. Listen, let me. I will give a much shorter thing. I was on the Amtrak train when the people were coming back from the Business Roundtable to New York and all of them were insulting Trump. Every one of them, Even if they don't speak out, they all said, what a fucking idiot. This uncertainty sucks. And they were all insulting it and saying, what do we do now? Second, because they talked too loud on an Amtrak train. All these men, they were all men. And then one woman. And then secondly, a CEO of a very big public company that is going to be affected by tariffs. And I'm not going to say what it is. I said, what are you going to do now? What are you going to do now? And he said, pass it on to consumers. And I was like, thought so, Right. And so. And it's going to hurt his business. He was like, I'm going to have to pass it along to consumers. There's no other way. And it's gonna affect his business across the globe. Absolutely. And it was like, this is. We don't know what to do, so we're gonna do anything. It's gonna affect everyone. Along with the cuts in government. The sort of non scalpel like cuts in government which would hearten people. The across the board cuts where you don't know where it's gonna happen. With crazy Elon with a chainsaw, same thing, nobody knows. Cause there's, you know, it's interesting because the Department of Education cuts, everyone's like, oh, it's not useful. They mostly have privatized much of their research and studies and stuff. Actually somewhat useful to know if things work or not. Different testing and things like that. That's all been privatized, so that's gonna have second and third order effects. And mostly across the country, not in Washington. And so although Washington's also gonna be affected. So the effects are everywhere. And so that's why there's been a lot of talk of recession lately, which I call a Trump Session. I'm gonna keep saying that word till it catches on. Like Bidenomics though, Trump is dancing around that language. Let's listen to what he told Fox Business's Maria Bartiromo earlier this week. By the way, Kara Swisher is not a fan of Maria Bartiromo when asked about the possibility of a recession.

[Elon Musk]

I hate to predict things like that. There is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big. We're bringing wealth back to America. That's a big thing. And there are always periods of, of it takes a little time. It takes a little time. But I think it should be great for us.

[Scott Galloway]

This issue has been a real hair up his ass. The idea that tariffs will work. He's way back in the Smoot Hawley days. But Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick had a different take on tariffs and recession. An interview with CBS News. Let's listen. These policies are the most important thing America has ever had. So it is worth it is worth it. A. I don't think the only reason there could possibly be a recession is because of the Biden nonsense that we had to live with. These policies produce revenues.

[Kara Swisher]

So you're saying when it looks chaotic and unpredictable from the outside that there actually is a master plan when it comes to these tariffs.

[Scott Galloway]

It is not chaotic. And the only one who thinks it's chaotic is someone who's being silly. Oh my God, he's such a clown.

[Elon Musk]

The most important thing in American history. So our decision to at huge costs, risk to our young men, risk to our economy. Turning washing machine factories into tank factories overnight. We decided for the second time to enter into World War II and push back on fascism. Oh. We decided that this incredible prosperity and rights should be extended to not civil rights. Oh. So I'm sorry, but these fucking tariffs are the most important thing America's ever done.

[Scott Galloway]

I know. He said.

[Elon Musk]

I mean you just lose so much credibility when you say that. And this is so chaotic. I don't even know the status of the tariffs right now. And I follow this shit.

[Scott Galloway]

I know now know why this guy is not respected on Wall street when he opens his mouth, he's such a clown. He's a suck up to Trump cuz he's finally relevant. He goes around talking about how he's best friends to Trump in Washington, all over the place. He is the thirstiest public official I've ever seen and it's because he's not beloved on Wall Street. And secondly, he's spewing nonsense, just nonsense out of his mouth.

[Elon Musk]

You know who's the big winner here is China. You know what? China. China has literally deployed dozens if not hundreds of their diplomats to the biggest European and Latin American companies. And they've said the following. You may not love us, but you can count on us. Where we like trade, we like commerce, and we do what we say. And you know what you're dealing with with us. You've been buying all these produce or products or finished products or soft whatever it might be from the U.S. you have no idea how to plan and what to expect from these folks. You can count on us. This is the deal. We are open for business. We love commerce. We are a dependable, consistent partner or even not China. Canada's gonna do more business with ma. This is literally a gift to every major economic power that had to compete against America. What they're saying is America is not competitive because you can't believe what they say. And the greatest level of damage here isn't even going to show up in the short run. Goldman Sachs already took their GDP prediction from 25 down from 2.4 to 1.7. It'll be the long term impacts of when people reconfigure their supply chain and the relationships, they're going to be somewhat like remiss to re engage again. This is going to be a structural step down in our credibility across our largest trading partners and trade. No doubt if you don't think about who gets really hurt, you can end up with a really difficult situation. And that's where America, America's been really good on trade. Where we're bad is helping out and showing empathy for the people who get, quite frankly who are on the wrong end of that, but on the whole prosperity just grows. We just continue to see that economically over time. And people when they stop buying our products, not because they might be the most competitive in a year, but they're like, we don't know what's gonna happen in the next year or two years.

[Scott Galloway]

So do you think a recession's likely at this point? Because again, with this fella in charge, I mean I'm thinking Gina Raimondo is so smart and this guy is so dumb, like actually dumb. I think he, when macroeconomics was taking place, he was the one sleeping behind me. The dude, dude sleeping on the desk behind me. That's what it feels like. He's not paying attention to almost any obvious thing. And you're right, we didn't take, when we did some of these trade deals, we didn't think of the effects here enough and figured out how to retrain and get people into new jobs and things that were more competitive and figure out what advanced manufacturing we could do here with our population and et cetera, et cetera. This is an opportunity for China. So do you. And the second thing is people worried about their 401ks and portfolios during this volatility. I mean, do you think there's going to be a recession? Very briefly. And then what would you say to people with the stock market? Warren Buffett looks like a genius. Tariffs suck. I'm in cash. Look who looks like he is the goat. He should be commerce, he should be president.

[Elon Musk]

But anyway, economists, and I don't consider myself like an economist, but quote, unquote, academics have predicted nine of the last three recessions. It's very hard to tell because you could have AI finally get real traction in the economy and massively increase productivity, which results in economic growth that overcompensates for these ridiculous tariffs. And we have a tendency to sometimes overestimate the power of the President and his policies on this unbelievable engine called the American economy that usually over the medium and long term sort of figures out a way. So I think it's dangerous to predict, predict a recession. What was your second question, Kara?

[Scott Galloway]

What would you do? You know, you're in the stock market, just leave it alone in the market.

[Elon Musk]

Look, just the only thing, the only thing I would consider is the following. And that is if this stat just blew my mind. If you add in corporate debt. So people have heard that the market capitalization of U.S. stocks now represents 50% of total equity value globally, which is extraordinary. But if you add in corporate debt, because the enterprise value of a company is its market cap, say 100 million plus, if it has 50 million in debt, the market is saying that this company worth $150 million because we're giving it $100 million in equity value, despite the fact it also owes $50 million. We're saying it's worth 150 million. If you add in all corporate debt and the world is worth $100, America costs 70 right now and the rest of the world sans the US costs 30. So if someone said to you, Kara Swisher, you can either buy America for $70 or the rest of the world.

[Scott Galloway]

You'd buy the rest of the world.

[Elon Musk]

Which would you? You'd buy the rest of the world. And so what I'm doing is the following. First, first off, I think you're always invested in the markets. Don't try and time them. You are not Warren Buffett. And when people predict a recession, oftentimes the market goes up 20 or 30%. And also you have to take into account whether you're going to trigger a taxable gain on your a taxable event on your income. Games what I would suggest, and this is not financial advice but what I am doing, 70 versus 30. I am pulling money out of the US and I'm putting into low cost diversified index funds in non US markets because while index funds will diversify, if you're just in an S and P or a NASDAQ index fund, you're actually not that diversified because typically when the markets get this expensive in America for the next five or ten years you have zero percent returns. European stocks haven't been this cheap in a long time. American stocks haven't been this expensive in a long time. So what I would say is one, I don't think you should go to cash. I just don't think you can time the markets. But what I would suggest is thinking about diversifying across geographies, not just asset classes.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, excellent, excellent advice, Professor Galloway. This was a very professorial. I used to fall asleep in macroeconomics.

[Elon Musk]

It's that math I did this morning.

[Scott Galloway]

I was like this. I used to do that. It was at 8, 10 in the morning. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We'll be back and to chat about Trump and Elon hawking Teslas at the White House. Support for Pivot comes from Brex. This goes out to all you finance folks. There's a lot of pressure these days to save money and that's important. But the best finance leaders focus on more than that. Brex knows you want to drive growth, change the game and ultimately win. And that's exactly what Brex can help you do. They say they offer the world's smartest corporate card banking, expense management and travel all in one. AI powered platform Brex unlocks your peak performance at every stage of growth. Startups love that Brex's high card limits and high yield banks banking extend their Runway. And large companies love that Brex allows them to control spending before it happens. Get every dollar in the right place and automate finance. Busy work. More than 30,000 companies use Brex to make every dollar count toward their mission. Get the modern finance platform that works as hard as you [e-mail] grow.

[Donald Trump]

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[Maria Bartiromo]

I had every reason to believe this.

[Elon Musk]

Is fundamentally impossible and I was the expert.

[Scott Galloway]

People here here literally manifest things out of nothing.

[Donald Trump]

Some of these ideas will make it, some will fail. But every moonshot moves us forward because the future isn't something we just predict, it's something we build together.

[Scott Galloway]

What an incredible time to exercise what only humans can do. Dreaming together and imagining the world we want to step into.

[Donald Trump]

I'm Astro Teller. This is the Moonshot Podcast out now.

[Maria Bartiromo]

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[Scott Galloway]

Scott, we're back with our second big story. The beautiful bromance of Elonid Trust continues. That's from our producers. The rest of us worry about dismantling of our government. President Trump is focused on a very important task promoting sales of Teslas. After posting on Truth Social Tuesday morning, he said he would buy a Tesla to support Musk. I bet he hasn't. Trump welcomed Elon in a fleet of Teslas to the White House. The President had a cheat sheet of notes and kudos to that photographer who got that picture in his hands while praising the the company. Let's listen to what he thought when he sat in one of the cars. And by the way, he hates EVs. He said he actually hates EVs. He doesn't drive, et cetera, et cetera so this was why this was precious.

[Elon Musk]

This is a different panel than I've had. Everything's computer.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God. He hasn't ever been inside a car in like a long time. It's really. I mean, a car looks like that. Tesla Stock is down 26% the last month. @ the time of the taping, it had a bump from Trump, but most people. There were two analyst reports showing that Tesla's in real trouble that are taking the stock price down quite considerably. Although it's hard to bet against Tesla because of stunts like this. Scott, did you know that there's a computer and a Tesla? Just what the fuck? What do you think of this stunt?

[Elon Musk]

Look, we have a bias, but this to me just seemed fucking ridiculous that the President of the United States would decide to do an infomercial for one brand and not all other American brands. It's one thing if he and the Commerce Secretary were to stand in front of a bunch of American made EVs, including Tesla. I think Biden screwed up not including Tesla in the EV Summit. That was punitive the other way. That was playing favorites the other way. But when you basically do one of these bad local. I'm crazy. Bob, come down to Bob's Ford and Lincoln Mercury.

[Scott Galloway]

A crazy deal, no percent down whatever.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, yeah, I was joking. That you can lease to own America for $285 million. This is stupid. And goes back to the notion that this kind of shit should not be allowed. It reflects poorly on America, reflects poorly on Trump. And the thing I don't get about Musk, who obviously has such an unbelievable feel for business, is that 75% of Republicans say they would never buy an EV. If he was just purely, quote, unquote, economically driven, which I think he is. I think he would have gone blue pill because the marketplace. I always use the example. We talked about this when Nike went political. It was a smart move because they tickled the sensors of the core market. He's pissing off his core market. I just don't, I don't understand his end game here as Gavin Newsom.

[Scott Galloway]

I think he's uninterested in Tesla. I think he's uninterested in Tesla anymore. I don't know what else, because they haven't innovated on the product. I know everybody sort of looks at the polarization that he's created and he's repulsing his customers and he's not gonna attract the ones who like him now. Right? They don't want. They may like him, they're not gonna buy his car. They might. I mean, they might, I guess, but I doubt it. Sean Hannity supposedly bought one, whatever, and he's like, it. Go fast. I was like, these are good cars. That said, you know what? I complained again to Darakos Rashahi. I was like, I just ordered an Uber black and a Tesla showed up. And they're still not luxury cars. Now I'm making the argument to him, it's not a luxury car. It's very tinny and a bumpy ride. And if I wanted a luxury car, send me an actual luxury car if I'm paying for it. But that said, I think it was pathetic. But now, interestingly, if support doesn't do what Elon was hoping in the long term, which was at least stabilize Tesla shares, which are drifting down, I suspect they're gonna be drifting down again. It's not the only way the President is attempting to help him. Trump also said he would label attacks Tesla dealerships, domestic terrorism. Nobody likes these attacks. These are stupid. What people. They're allowed to protest. And the fact that he's calling, he's trying to sort of link regular protests with domestic terrorism is ridiculous. But attacking Charger facilities, et cetera, is just violent is what it is. It's not terrorism. It's just obnoxious and illegal, and those should be arrested. And Elon Musk is paying back the favors. He reportedly plans to give $100 million to President Trump's political operation that Trump can control, rather rather than Musk. During the election, Musk donated over $250 million to his pro Trump super PAC that he controlled. He made up that hundred million dollars in the rise in Tesla stock after Trump did this infomercial. But it feels so pay to play. It's like, so right in front of you. And I agree Biden should have included a Tesla in that particular event at the White House. And someone was arguing that presidents always promote different American products. But not like this. This was like it was. Plus, he didn't know how cars worked, which even made him seem older and more like an old man in my. I think that also was weird. His. His discomfort inside of a car felt very. I don't know, it gave me like a. Like a Biden feel. Like a doddering old man, kind of. And he's. I think he is much more vibrant, obviously, in Biden. Any other thoughts about this money that's going back and forth between these two?

[Elon Musk]

It really is. I mean, it's so passe. But money in politics and Just what feels like a straight pay for play. And all the incentives are. I mean, I've said this for a long time. The thing that's always horrified me about our representatives and our Congress is not that they're hoarse, not that if you give them money, you get audience with them. I've known that for a long time. Them, it's what incredibly cheap whores they are. And that is if you give 10 to 25 grand to every senator I bet more than half would meet with you when you swung by Washington. And influence is a function of proximity and intimacy. You have audience with people who get to levy or are the arbiters of the largest purse in history. So the incentives are Jeff Beza or Mark Zuckerberg. Look at these investments and go, this is the best investment in history. A million bucks for his inauguration campaign and he stops threatening to put me in jail or he's going to not try and break me up, or he's going to tell the FTC or the DOJ it hands off Amazon or whoever. This is the best money spent. Unless you have systemic laws and regulation that says no, we pass laws that affect all companies. We're not allowed to play, we're not allowed to play favorite. It's just a race to the bottom where everyone's like, all right, let's give him a giant medal and award and build a gold statue of him and give $10 million to his electoral campaign. And the problem is that favors the incumbents because they're the ones that have all the power. And anybody who says, no, I'm standing up for American values, I'm not going to take this money, they're at a huge disadvantage. And we end up with a majority of our elected officials are willing to engage in this grift, in this trade.

[Scott Galloway]

So as far as you can see, you know, it's interesting. Cause there is a point to be made that, you know, other politicians are getting paid under the table. And this is explicit, but it's gross no matter how it happens. And it doesn't look like it's about the products, right? It's not about what's best. It's what who can pay me the most. And that, you know, that's the. We're not focused on making things that are good. We're focused on who owes the money. And, and that. We all know that about American politics, but it's not implicit or explicit. It's grotesque is what it is.

[Elon Musk]

You know, who is just one example, you know, who's doing this, right? The University of California. I owe California taxpayers a lot. I've given some money to UCLA and to Berkeley. And both the chancellors of UCLA and Berkeley called me and said, one, thank you, and two, I just need you to know this. Your kid is less likely to get. Get in now that you have given money. They are not only so, like, worried about conflicts of interest and abusing the public purse, that if you give over a certain amount of money to the University of California, the chancellor will call you and say, just FYI, your kid is now less likely to get in because we have to be so careful about conflicts and not abusing the public trust. And quite frankly, I respect it.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, you could call your kid Swisher. You want to change the kid's name to Swisher?

[Elon Musk]

Trust me, I'll call you. That's right. You went to a private school where you can still just. You can do. Pay for play.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, that's true.

[Elon Musk]

But that is how government. That is how you are supposed to respect the power of money you're given. When he favors industries, he's spending your money. He's abusing your tax dollars.

[Scott Galloway]

Totally. I don't even know how much that cost. That probably costs, like, the amount of money this guy just throws away of taxpayer money, like on golfing or his. His dumb military flights of immigrants that are overpriced and then does this. You know, it's just ridiculous. And, you know, and the only person that benefited was Elon Musk with the stock going up, and then somewhere, somehow, there's money in Trump's pocket. Every time.

[Elon Musk]

I think this was bad for the brand. I really do. I think it looked desperate. Yeah, Yeah, I would.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, I really now that you really don't want to own a Tesla. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[Donald Trump]

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[Michelle Obama]

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[Howard Lutnick]

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[Scott Galloway]

Okay Scott, let's hear your prediction and just say you thought that they're going to break up. Do you still think that? You said Doge should be over and Elon would be gone. But let's hear your prediction first.

[Elon Musk]

Well, that is my prediction and that is there's not gonna be a breakup I think that essentially people keep asking us, as Anderson did last night, when does the relationship end? I don't think the relationship ends with a bang. I think he just sort. I think Musk just fades to black. 1. If the President is really serious about the Cabinet secretaries now get to make the final decision and Musk is just an advisor to them, that means nothing is going to happen because these cabinet secretaries have a very difficult job. They need all of their staff. The savings are minimal in comparison to, for example, the increase in the deficits from the planned tax cuts. If Elon Musk comes back, he's not going to come back with a thoughtful. You could probably cut a thousand of the 4,500 people from the Department of Education who have overseen national mandatory testing, which most people think has not worked. Worked right intentions has not worked. If he came back with thoughtful recommendations, the Department of Education might say, okay, that might make sense. But he's not there to look at fraud and waste, which by the way, we've got a clean bill of health on so far because they can't find as much as everyone had anticipated. But also, this isn't about an audit. This isn't about efficiency. These are political actions. When you cut off all USA trade, it's a political action. And political actions are supposed to be left to our elected representatives representing the people. So if it was in fact about efficiency, fine. But what he said is if he in fact is honest about now, he's just an advisor, he's gonna have no power, nothing's gonna happen. And in addition, he is now probably doing the math and going, I miscalculated. There are not only his Tesla sales being hammered, but what he's really scared of has happened and that is the virus here has jumped the lab to Starlink and that is a lot of big customers are now rethinking their Starlink relationship. So what initially was very accretive to his personal wealth has returned. He's lost all that money and the momentum is downward. So I think he's basically going to pull of Vivec and just slowly fade away out of. And I think Doge is going to die a quiet death because he has. It looks as if his power has been emasculated and two too. He's just losing so much money right now because of the negative brand halo.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, and guess what country has alternatives. China. And Jeff Bezos is working on things to Starlink. Now Starlink is dominant at this point and he keeps saying there's no other alternative. He said that about Tesla, there's other alternatives. There's going to be other alternatives. And then he is up the creek without that proverbial paddle. You're right. I agree with you. Interesting prediction. We'll see. There is a staying power. There's a weird relationship happening between these two. That he stays there, that he's at the White House, the kids around. There's something much different here. But I would agree. Money. He almost teared up when he was talking about the money he was losing. Even the world's richest man doesn't like to lose tens of billions of dollars on any one day.

[Elon Musk]

So, Cara, you know what stock is up? The Starlink competitor in Europe, Utel Stat, has quadrupled in the last 30 days as these small, inferior product competitors are now viable again because they have an enormous increase in interest from nations and companies that don't want to work with Starlink. That stock has gone from a month ago. It was trading at a buck 20.

[Scott Galloway]

Buy Europe. That's the Scott Galloway message today.

[Elon Musk]

It opened at 682.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

So you're about to see a massive amount of capital. I mean, this is so bad for Starlink. You're about to see a massive amount of capital go into other satellite and communications providers that quite frankly, weren't as competitive, they weren't as good as Starlink.

[Scott Galloway]

Starlink's a superior product. And by the way, Tesla was a superior product, but he hasn't improved it. And again, as I say over and over again, a lot of people are banning Tesla because they're repulsed by Elon Musk, but they have not innovated their product. If you have a great product, and in this case, it's the repulsiveness and the danger if you go with him in this case. And that's why Europe is going to abandon him. And so is Canada has. It's not just that. And there's plenty of. There's gonna be plenty of competitors in the Starlink business very soon anyways.

[Elon Musk]

There won't be a press announcement. But watch, in 30 or 60 days, DOSIA is gonna be surprisingly like, not in the news.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. All right. We'll see. I'd be interested. That would be great. And then they can go to Mars and it'll be great for him to do that. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. Scott, that is the show. When Are you going back to London soon?

[Elon Musk]

At some point I'm going away for the weekend and then I go back to London on Sunday. How about you? What are you up to?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, you know, I'm moving my mom to Washington. As I told you, I'm picking her up tonight, and then I will be in D.C. but then I'm actually going on a little vacation myself.

[Elon Musk]

Where are you going?

[Scott Galloway]

Puerto Rico with three of my four children. We're going and we're going to have a little El Yuque time and be in Puerto Rico, which should be a state as far as I'm concerned. I'm excited. Amanda loves it, and so we're gonna go there. I'm kind of excited.

[Elon Musk]

I've never been to Puerto Rico.

[Scott Galloway]

I love Puerto Rico. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful place. It's a really nice place. And it's in these United States and people should go there. People should go to all the places that were sort of hit by hurricanes, too. I like going to places that are in the United States and also deserving of our attention. Anyway, I'm not a big vacationer, so I'm excited.

[Elon Musk]

I'm going the new tariff Saint Champagne. I feel bad. I'm gonna spend more time in St. Bart' just to be a good citizen.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, okay. All right. All right, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Read us out.

[Elon Musk]

Today's show was produced by Lara Naimon, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio and Dan Schulon. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine and want to mag.com pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great time. Moving lucky.

[Donald Trump]

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[Elon Musk]

It's a question everyone has asked at some point in their lives. Now what? And on the Prop G show, we're finally going to try to answer it. We're running a special series right now where I'll answer listener submitted questions about the best way to further their careers and how to position themselves for success as they consider the next step in their professional journey. It's time to look to the future and and stop worrying about the past. So tune in Wednesdays to the Prop G pod for these special Q and A episodes sponsored by canva. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Reaching the Right Small Businesses starts with the right data Intuit SMB Media Labs is a first of its kind small business ad network with access to audiences and insights from the makers of QuickBooks. You can target key decision makers by industry size, maturity, location and more. It's your gateway to B2SMB marketing success. Learn more at medialabs Intuit.

[Scott Galloway]

Com.